The Historian of Hops, Joel Hermensen, returns to teach Gary and Allison about brewing during the early years of the United States. Were there any hops? What were the founding father's brewing? If you went into a public house, would you like the beer?

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TIMELINE

00:00 Introduction and Guest Introductions

00:31 The Unique History of Beer in America

03:55 Pre-Columbian Beer Practices

07:38 European Influence on American Beer

10:10 Beer in Early American Colonies

20:42 Beer and the American Revolution

27:31 Challenges of Early American Brewing

32:19 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

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CREDITS

Hosts:

Bobby Fleshman

Allison McCoy-Fleshman

Gary Ardnt

Music by Sarah Lynn Huss

Recorded & Produced by David Kalsow

Brought to you by McFleshman's Brewing Co

Gary Arndt: 00:00:04

Hello everyone.

Gary Arndt: 00:00:05

And welcome to another episode of Respecting the beer.

Gary Arndt: 00:00:07

My name is Gary Arndt with me again, as usual is professor Alison McCoy, the proprietor of McFleshman's Brewing Company.

Gary Arndt: 00:00:15

And back on the show is the historian of hops and the chancellor of beer school, Mr.

Gary Arndt: 00:00:21

Joel Hartmanson, how are you doing, sir?

Joel Hermensen: 00:00:23

That was fabulous.

Joel Hermensen: 00:00:26

I need a business card with that.

Joel Hermensen: 00:00:28

Can we get a business card with that?

Joel Hermensen: 00:00:30

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: Noted.

Gary Arndt: 00:00:31

So, when you were on in the past, we talked really kind of about the ancient origins of beer.

Gary Arndt: 00:00:37

And now we want to start talking about beer in the United States because it has a unique history here kind of had a different rope or different history than it did in europe where it was, you know Initially founded so where does the story of beer in america start?

Joel Hermensen: 00:00:55

Can I back up for one quick second?

Joel Hermensen: 00:00:58

Sure.

Joel Hermensen: 00:00:58

I think I'm really, first of all, really happy to be here.

Joel Hermensen: 00:01:02

But one of the things that makes this place unique, because I want to try to tie this to McFleshman's.

Joel Hermensen: 00:01:09

When, when Bobby brews a beer, when there's a, you know, a thought process that goes into brewing a beer, the history really is considered.

Joel Hermensen: 00:01:19

And we do, the beer tenders do try to You know, develop a certain historic fluency because the people that come here want to have beer conversations.

Joel Hermensen: 00:01:31

And that's one of the reasons that I love doing these, these podcasts, because, you know, people do come in and talk about some of the things that we talk about.

Joel Hermensen: 00:01:40

But you know, the, the beer tenders here, you know, we try to get Cicerone certification.

Joel Hermensen: 00:01:45

We try to have some historical and tasting knowledge of the beer so that we can talk about these things.

Joel Hermensen: 00:01:52

So.

Joel Hermensen: 00:01:53

Just kind of a, a little sidebar to, you know, kind of the method behind this madness, you know, we really do try to be historical.

Joel Hermensen: 00:02:02

And I say that as we're sitting in this awesome, you know, prohibition room which commemorates the history of beer, after 1933.

Joel Hermensen: 00:02:10

So, I think, thank you for indulging me.

Joel Hermensen: 00:02:13

I think

Gary Arndt: 00:02:13

that's important because you know, what separates a place like this from your run of the mill bar.

Gary Arndt: 00:02:19

Or, you know, a beer that you can buy someplace else isn't just the quality of the beer, which, which is a very high quality, but that certain something extra, you know, whether it's even, you know, one of the things I noticed is when you guys pour like a stout or something, like the, the quest for the perfect pour and getting the perfect head.

Gary Arndt: 00:02:41

Oh, Nancy

Gary Arndt: 00:02:41

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: does that every time.

Gary Arndt: 00:02:42

She's amazing.

Gary Arndt: 00:02:43

Or, and even, you know, going so far as like take pictures.

Gary Arndt: 00:02:46

You know, your favorite.

Gary Arndt: 00:02:47

I mean, there's something to it that you're just not going to get in many other places.

Gary Arndt: 00:02:52

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: Well, I think that there's a, there's the history part of it, we can become quite obsessed.

Gary Arndt: 00:02:57

I remember there was a beer fest last year that some folks came over to our booth and they were like, what's the weirdest thing you have?

Gary Arndt: 00:03:03

And I looked down and they of course want some sort of like ecto cooler, green slushy IPA stout thing mixed with beat box of some sort.

Gary Arndt: 00:03:13

and I looked down and I'm like, Oh, Oh, weirdest thing.

Gary Arndt: 00:03:15

Oh, get this.

Gary Arndt: 00:03:16

And they're all excited.

Gary Arndt: 00:03:17

I have an Oktoberfest, which is a Marts and lager in a cask.

Gary Arndt: 00:03:22

And I was like, look, it's cast conditioned Oktoberfest.

Gary Arndt: 00:03:26

And they look at me like, I don't understand.

Gary Arndt: 00:03:28

I was like, that is very strange because we respect its history so much.

Gary Arndt: 00:03:33

You should just bring a packet of lime Kool Aid with you to these events and then just dump it in and go there.

Gary Arndt: 00:03:39

That gets weird enough for you.

Gary Arndt: 00:03:41

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: I quit.

Gary Arndt: 00:03:42

No, I can't.

Joel Hermensen: 00:03:43

I can't do it.

Joel Hermensen: 00:03:44

I don't think that would be respecting the beer.

Joel Hermensen: 00:03:46

I don't think it would either.

Gary Arndt: 00:03:47

Yeah.

Gary Arndt: 00:03:48

Anyways.

Gary Arndt: 00:03:49

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: So back to the United States.

Gary Arndt: 00:03:49

Beer and American history.

Gary Arndt: 00:03:50

Yeah.

Gary Arndt: 00:03:50

Right.

Gary Arndt: 00:03:51

USA.

Gary Arndt: 00:03:51

Where does the

Gary Arndt: 00:03:51

story of beer in America start?

Joel Hermensen: 00:03:55

So when we do our beer in US history class, which usually runs at some point in the fall, we gotta figure that date out we always, we always talk a little bit about pre Columbian history.

Joel Hermensen: 00:04:10

Because I think we have sometimes a Eurocentric bias when we look at the history of the United States and we don't take into account that there have been people living in this hemisphere for an incredibly long period of time.

Joel Hermensen: 00:04:27

And much like the people in Europe, they stored grain.

Joel Hermensen: 00:04:31

And the grain that they stored is different because wheat was not indigenous to this hemisphere.

Joel Hermensen: 00:04:38

So they utilized different, grains.

Joel Hermensen: 00:04:41

Predominantly corn.

Joel Hermensen: 00:04:43

And when you store grain, particularly in a non airtight vessel, it is going to saturate, it is going to sprout, it is going to ferment, and they realize that the same as, as European peoples did.

Joel Hermensen: 00:04:58

and Eurasian peoples, so it really does start there and, you know, we have kind of a historical beer that's made by Dogfish Head that kind of accommodates that.

Joel Hermensen: 00:05:08

That's the, the Peruvian chicha beer, which they actually grind with their own mouth.

Joel Hermensen: 00:05:16

Well,

Joel Hermensen: 00:05:17

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: let me add some color to it.

Joel Hermensen: 00:05:19

You know, they chew it up and they spit it out into a big bucket.

Joel Hermensen: 00:05:21

Yeah.

Joel Hermensen: 00:05:21

And then slosh that about and then that becomes the mash, is that right?

Joel Hermensen: 00:05:24

Yeah, it is.

Joel Hermensen: 00:05:25

Yeah, I've never, I've never really fully got behind that.

Joel Hermensen: 00:05:28

We

Joel Hermensen: 00:05:28

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: should totally do one!

Joel Hermensen: 00:05:29

Right.

Joel Hermensen: 00:05:31

Right.

Joel Hermensen: 00:05:31

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: That's the face you made.

Joel Hermensen: 00:05:33

Right, you can't see the face on the podcast,

Joel Hermensen: 00:05:36

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: but

Joel Hermensen: 00:05:36

you can get an idea.

Joel Hermensen: 00:05:37

And then they would obviously spice it as best they could with, you know, fruits and things and herbs.

Joel Hermensen: 00:05:45

So they were on a similar trajectory that Eurasian people were.

Joel Hermensen: 00:05:50

Because as we've talked about, and I come back to that, that quote that we always talk about on the podcast when I'm on from Professor George Bamforth about beer really being the basis of modern static civilization.

Joel Hermensen: 00:06:04

As civilizations have grown and changed, beer technology has grown and changed, and it's driven science, it's driven social movements, and cultural movements, and political movements, and things like that, so, the people of ancient America really aren't any different.

Gary Arndt: 00:06:22

Have you heard of anyone ever trying to make a corn, corn based beer?

Gary Arndt: 00:06:26

Or some, I mean, maybe not chewing it in their mouth, but trying to replicate these original drinks?

Gary Arndt: 00:06:33

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: Replicate the original drinks that I'm not sure I mean aside from what dogfish head did in which the the chicha you have to you need the enzymes in the spit that helps.

Gary Arndt: 00:06:42

Yep.

Gary Arndt: 00:06:43

Move along.

Gary Arndt: 00:06:43

Accelerates the process.

Gary Arndt: 00:06:46

But a Mexican lager is is brewed with corn.

Gary Arndt: 00:06:49

I mean there's well I mean then you can get into the industrial loggers that supplemented barley with corn and rice.

Gary Arndt: 00:06:57

But yeah I think corn is used a lot.

Gary Arndt: 00:07:00

At least our Mexican lager we know we have that.

Joel Hermensen: 00:07:02

I don't think there's a beer that is made exclusively with corn as the grain.

Joel Hermensen: 00:07:09

I'm sure that people living, you know, in the Andes highlands maybe still do that.

Joel Hermensen: 00:07:15

I don't, because wheat doesn't grow particularly well at higher altitudes.

Joel Hermensen: 00:07:20

So they're probably still largely corn dependent.

Joel Hermensen: 00:07:24

But I don't think there's a, there's a domestically produced beer.

Joel Hermensen: 00:07:28

That, that does that.

Joel Hermensen: 00:07:29

In

Joel Hermensen: 00:07:30

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: Bobby's absence I go to Google.

Joel Hermensen: 00:07:31

Right,

Joel Hermensen: 00:07:32

yes.

Joel Hermensen: 00:07:33

Bobby's like Google.

Joel Hermensen: 00:07:34

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: He is, he's the beer Google.

Joel Hermensen: 00:07:36

Yes.

Joel Hermensen: 00:07:37

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: That's amazing.

Joel Hermensen: 00:07:38

But then obviously when Europeans started to come into the hemisphere after the Columbian Exchange, the beer universe changed dramatically.

Joel Hermensen: 00:07:47

As it did across the entire culinary universe, it's not just beer.

Joel Hermensen: 00:07:51

Food changed and all of a sudden, barley is here, and, you know, hops make an appearance, and, you know, things like that, and they stop using, you know, some of the indigenous herbs, and spruce tips, and things like that, and, and, and beer starts to become more systematic.

Gary Arndt: 00:08:10

So, when the, the Europeans first started coming over, and I'm, Actually, I don't know the answer to this.

Gary Arndt: 00:08:15

Did the Spanish, you don't think of them as big brewers?

Gary Arndt: 00:08:19

No.

Gary Arndt: 00:08:19

Did they?

Gary Arndt: 00:08:20

No.

Gary Arndt: 00:08:21

The

Joel Hermensen: 00:08:21

first, probably the first brewing footprint in this hemisphere is, is probably from a European perspective is probably what we're seeing at Roanoke, in the 1580s, they were brewing.

Joel Hermensen: 00:08:35

In fact, in the, in the short, I think it was a, you know, 36 to 48 month period that they were there.

Joel Hermensen: 00:08:42

They had to send back for beer several times because the people that came from Europe to the Americas were usually of a specific demographic group and they oftentimes forgot to bring brewers.

Joel Hermensen: 00:08:57

They forgot to bring carpenters.

Joel Hermensen: 00:08:59

They didn't bring like the, the, the, People that were required, a lot of these people were upper class who were coming over here to dig for gold and they forgot that they were going to need to farm and build homes and Brew beer and and things like that must be

Joel Hermensen: 00:09:15

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: rough to not recognize the importance of the trades.

Joel Hermensen: 00:09:18

Wow

Joel Hermensen: 00:09:19

Right.

Joel Hermensen: 00:09:20

It's almost like we've come full circle I have to go back to my

Joel Hermensen: 00:09:23

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: us history from high school.

Joel Hermensen: 00:09:25

Thank goodness.

Joel Hermensen: 00:09:26

You're sitting next to me roanoke That was german folk or english folk english.

Joel Hermensen: 00:09:30

Walter.

Joel Hermensen: 00:09:30

Raleigh 1580s.

Joel Hermensen: 00:09:32

That was the one that disappeared disappeared And the only you know, it's a great mystery.

Joel Hermensen: 00:09:37

The only thing they found was the word croatoan carved into a tree otherwise everyone vanished, and

Gary Arndt: 00:09:45

I did an episode on that on my podcast.

Gary Arndt: 00:09:47

You did, yeah.

Gary Arndt: 00:09:48

The theory is kind of that they probably were suffering a famine, and they went and went to live with the local natives, and they were just sort of subsumed into their population over time.

Gary Arndt: 00:10:02

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: Wow.

Joel Hermensen: 00:10:04

But back to the survivors not bringing farmers was maybe a brewers I think brewers and maybe a bad call But so

Joel Hermensen: 00:10:10

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: the English came first Yeah, and then so that means that the English ales then really started the American beer industry Yes, the English ales.

Joel Hermensen: 00:10:20

Yeah, excellent and and beer was huge at Jamestown beer was a huge part of The early societies in New England, I mean I think Everybody knows the story of how, when they, Plymouth they didn't actually land first at Plymouth, by the way.

Joel Hermensen: 00:10:37

They landed at Provincetown, which is on the northern tip of Cape Cod, and then they proceeded down the Cape to Plymouth.

Joel Hermensen: 00:10:44

But when they landed there first, they ran out of beer.

Joel Hermensen: 00:10:48

That was why they came ashore.

Joel Hermensen: 00:10:51

And the, the, basically the ship's captains, Who brought these religious dissenters to the america said, okay, you got to get off We don't have enough beer for the return trip home and you And it's it's written in their journals That they had to get off the pilgrims

Gary Arndt: 00:11:07

were actually making a beer run

Joel Hermensen: 00:11:09

Yes They were and we we look at this differently because you have to realize that You know today when I go into quick trip or I go into a store.

Joel Hermensen: 00:11:18

There's 200 things I can drink People, you know people Pre industrialization, they had, like, two things that they could drink, and one of them was beer.

Gary Arndt: 00:11:30

Well, especially on a ship.

Joel Hermensen: 00:11:31

Mm.

Joel Hermensen: 00:11:32

Yeah.

Gary Arndt: 00:11:32

you just didn't drink water.

Joel Hermensen: 00:11:34

No.

Gary Arndt: 00:11:35

That wasn't an option.

Gary Arndt: 00:11:36

In fact, you look at a lot of, like, the British Navy, you kept meticulous records of everything.

Gary Arndt: 00:11:40

You had a allocation of ale or grog.

Gary Arndt: 00:11:43

Which was like rum and water, you had every day and that's what you had.

Gary Arndt: 00:11:47

And that was one of the, not only biggest sources of calories, but water for people.

Joel Hermensen: 00:11:52

Right.

Joel Hermensen: 00:11:52

No one said, well, I'd like a, I'd like a fruit juice.

Joel Hermensen: 00:11:54

Could I have a smoothie, please?

Joel Hermensen: 00:11:56

You know, could I have a sparkling water?

Joel Hermensen: 00:11:58

I mean, that was just what you drank.

Joel Hermensen: 00:12:01

So, running out of beer, I mean, we kind of look at that and we make fun of that and think, Oh, it's, you know, here they are, 1619, they needed a beer run.

Joel Hermensen: 00:12:10

Well, they actually, if you look at it, they needed a water run.

Gary Arndt: 00:12:14

So, Well, the interesting thing is that I think our view of the pilgrims, we view them as Puritans, right?

Gary Arndt: 00:12:21

Religious fundamentalists.

Gary Arndt: 00:12:23

And several centuries later, that was part of the movement that was behind the temperance movement and prohibition, right?

Gary Arndt: 00:12:31

But at the time that really wasn't a thing because beer was so fundamental that they couldn't have, that wasn't a luxury they could afford.

Gary Arndt: 00:12:39

Right.

Joel Hermensen: 00:12:39

Right.

Joel Hermensen: 00:12:40

Right.

Joel Hermensen: 00:12:41

And I, my students find it just, they're just shocked when I describe the fact that early, early people in the colonies, and this, this goes all the way up to when they were penning, you know, the Declaration of Independence at, at Queens Tavern in Philadelphia, people didn't drink water.

Joel Hermensen: 00:13:02

Like, they, they just can't wrap their head around.

Joel Hermensen: 00:13:06

This fact, and it's not because they don't think that there were like faucets or things like, I mean, when the people of European descent came to Roanoke and Jamestown and Plymouth and they settled the Great Lake Street, there was water everywhere.

Joel Hermensen: 00:13:23

And it was freshwater and it was river water and it was good water, even if you would have just given it a quick boil, they just didn't drink it ever.

Joel Hermensen: 00:13:31

They had gotten so accustomed to urban areas in Europe having polluted water that they'd never

Gary Arndt: 00:13:39

drank

Joel Hermensen: 00:13:40

it.

Gary Arndt: 00:13:41

So they get here, what kind of, you mentioned English ales.

Gary Arndt: 00:13:45

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: Hmm.

Gary Arndt: 00:13:46

Was it the same?

Gary Arndt: 00:13:48

I mean, were they using the same recipe, or were there ingredients that they were missing?

Gary Arndt: 00:13:52

Were they just making, getting by with what they had?

Joel Hermensen: 00:13:54

Well, and hops really don't become part of the equation on a wide scale until the early 19th century, because hop cultivation is different everywhere you go.

Joel Hermensen: 00:14:08

I mean, you, if you've ever been to McFlushman's, we have a Some beautiful hop vines.

Joel Hermensen: 00:14:13

Hop vines take a while to cultivate.

Joel Hermensen: 00:14:15

It takes a while to perfect them.

Joel Hermensen: 00:14:18

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: Although they are like mint.

Joel Hermensen: 00:14:19

If you do plant them in the ground, get ready.

Joel Hermensen: 00:14:22

They will grow everywhere.

Joel Hermensen: 00:14:24

Right.

Joel Hermensen: 00:14:25

And they explode, which is

Joel Hermensen: 00:14:27

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: good for beer, right?

Joel Hermensen: 00:14:28

It's good for beer.

Joel Hermensen: 00:14:30

but so they would use adjuncts like pine nuts, spruce tips.

Joel Hermensen: 00:14:37

Have you ever brewed a beer with spruce tips?

Joel Hermensen: 00:14:39

Oh my god, we did I did once and I just used some blue spruce cones from my backyard

Joel Hermensen: 00:14:45

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: Yeah,

Joel Hermensen: 00:14:46

it wasn't It wasn't horrible

Joel Hermensen: 00:14:49

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: now i'll go hiking with bobby and our five year old and he'll be We're walking through the state park and then he's just he'll stop and he'll start like getting closer to a tree And I just know he's thinking about what?

Joel Hermensen: 00:15:00

Needles he can pull off that tree and put in, but no Alex Schultz, our wonderful alder person slash handyman slash Swiss army knife of this place wanted to do spruce tips and they, he soaked them in of a big, or I guess they're not spruce tips or like the pine cone.

Joel Hermensen: 00:15:17

Well, he and I did the extract.

Joel Hermensen: 00:15:20

Is that what

Joel Hermensen: 00:15:20

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: it was?

Joel Hermensen: 00:15:20

Yeah.

Joel Hermensen: 00:15:21

I bought

Joel Hermensen: 00:15:21

a, I bought a spruce extract.

Joel Hermensen: 00:15:25

And we were desperate to flavor it with something.

Joel Hermensen: 00:15:28

And we did it at beer school.

Joel Hermensen: 00:15:30

And we used Ultima.

Joel Hermensen: 00:15:31

As the base.

Joel Hermensen: 00:15:33

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: Oh, right.

Joel Hermensen: 00:15:33

No, i'm talking about a different story Basically, there were these like really fresh little pine cones that hadn't wooded yet.

Joel Hermensen: 00:15:38

I don't know what that term's called but he he basically saturated them and took a huge ass mallet and just started beating the crap out of them But the problem was a huge five gallon bucket And so he's like, oh, I said won't take long and like four hours later The poor guy is just in the back still pounding these things.

Joel Hermensen: 00:15:53

Yeah, this sounds like an alex.

Joel Hermensen: 00:15:55

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: Yeah But it went into the beer.

Joel Hermensen: 00:15:57

I think this was a christmas You Beer that we did.

Joel Hermensen: 00:16:02

I can't remember but the spruce tip thing in the ultima I remember this because that was during the when you were trying to simulate what it would have tasted like.

Joel Hermensen: 00:16:08

Yeah And because when you take

Joel Hermensen: 00:16:10

beers, you know when you take a beer history class Or a beer science class at mcfleshman's we try to do things as authentically as possible

Joel Hermensen: 00:16:19

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: And we also drink beer while we're doing it because it's just wrong to be in a beer school and not be drinking beer correct

Gary Arndt: 00:16:24

So if they didn't have hops at first what about malt?

Gary Arndt: 00:16:28

Because malting takes some effort too.

Joel Hermensen: 00:16:31

Yeah, malting was occurring probably by the middle of the 1700s.

Joel Hermensen: 00:16:39

But controlling the heat, they would basically build these elevated grain floors and heat from underneath the floor.

Joel Hermensen: 00:16:50

And walk on it with their boots as they're trying to, you know, you, you got very inconsistent malting to begin with.

Joel Hermensen: 00:16:59

You don't really get any consistency and any ability to control color until you get the rotary, furnace malt You don't, you don't get any, any consistency with that.

Joel Hermensen: 00:17:10

So when they would brew a beer, and George Washington was frankly one of the most prolific brewers in the United States.

Joel Hermensen: 00:17:18

Prior to 1900, he was constantly brewing.

Joel Hermensen: 00:17:21

But he would brew these, what he called a small beer.

Joel Hermensen: 00:17:26

Which, and he wrote about it in his recipe, it's going to turn out different every time because they don't have any consistency in the malts and things like that.

Joel Hermensen: 00:17:35

So, that was undoubtedly something that was probably frustrating for early brewers is, you know, being able to kind of control the flow of the ingredients that come into your, I mean even today in a modern brewery they control everything from the Gypsum in the water to the alpha acids in the hops

Joel Hermensen: 00:17:58

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: This is one of the reasons

Joel Hermensen: 00:17:59

that folks will ask us like why aren't you using the hops that are growing in the beer garden?

Joel Hermensen: 00:18:02

We're like, oh, well, we actually don't have an accurate understanding of the alpha acid content in that particular hop

Joel Hermensen: 00:18:07

Right and and to go about and develop that is probably just going to be more of a hassle than it's actually worth

Joel Hermensen: 00:18:13

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: Well, and to the point about this the the variation in the color.

Joel Hermensen: 00:18:17

It was a guy named joseph lavabond who came up with the beer color scale And according to Wikipedia, thank you fancy phone he wasn't doing this until about 1900 or so and so that sort of consistency or desire to be consistent didn't come around until late 1800s, 1900s or so, so we're still 200 years prior to that.

Joel Hermensen: 00:18:40

And one of the people who was most, I think I would use the word, perturbed.

Joel Hermensen: 00:18:48

By this wild inconsistency in beer.

Joel Hermensen: 00:18:51

Was someone who liked beer very much, but actually preferred Madeira wine because wine, wine tended to be more consistent, but Thomas Jefferson was absolutely a beer guy, but he was troubled by the inconsistency.

Joel Hermensen: 00:19:10

Of it and he was such a tinkerer and a little bit like your husband You know kind of a perfectionist and wanting everything to be to be perfect And and with the technology that they had at the time they couldn't do that

Gary Arndt: 00:19:26

Where did beer stand in the hierarchy of beverages Because and I think of the 18th century america There's a lot of whiskey

Gary Arndt: 00:19:36

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: a

Gary Arndt: 00:19:37

lot of rum Especially coming up from the Caribbean and rum was a huge part of the trade and in New England, a lot of cider just because it was an easier thing to grow apples.

Gary Arndt: 00:19:50

So where was beer at this point?

Gary Arndt: 00:19:52

Kind of an American history along the in terms of popularity,

Joel Hermensen: 00:19:57

I think things like Madeira wine, which I mentioned with Jefferson that had to be imported.

Joel Hermensen: 00:20:03

But that's going to get expensive.

Joel Hermensen: 00:20:06

Rum is, is also imported.

Joel Hermensen: 00:20:08

That's going to get expensive.

Joel Hermensen: 00:20:10

There was actually, I think one of the first temperance movements in the, in US history was kind of authored in part by Benjamin Rush, who was a famous early American physician slash revolutionary.

Joel Hermensen: 00:20:26

He warned against the consumption of spirits and actually encouraged the consumption of beer.

Joel Hermensen: 00:20:35

Because beer you know, produced far different effects on the person who consumed that.

Joel Hermensen: 00:20:42

And you know, and one of the things, and just to kind of take this into a slightly different direction, we would be remiss if we didn't point out that the Founding Fathers loved beer, and so much of the American Revolution And, excuse the pun, but the fermentation of that movement occurred at public houses and taverns and over pints in pewter glasses.

Joel Hermensen: 00:21:12

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: Well, that kind of makes sense.

Joel Hermensen: 00:21:13

I mean, isn't it the same argument of some of the great writers?

Joel Hermensen: 00:21:16

Is when the coffee and caffeine hit.

Joel Hermensen: 00:21:19

Europe and that's when some of the great writers were able to all of a sudden just like oh I've got this crazy idea because you know, you take your two espressos and all of a sudden you can conquer the world I think it's the same thing and as soon as you have a couple pints, you're like, oh, yeah I'm gonna do the thing i'm very scared to do now

Joel Hermensen: 00:21:34

well, and Think about it this way beer is a social lubricant, right?

Joel Hermensen: 00:21:39

I mean I You put four or five people, you put John Adams and George Washington and Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson and Samuel Adams in a room together without beer, there's probably going to be pretty prolific conversation.

Joel Hermensen: 00:21:55

But when you add beer to the mix, and they start to explore their grievances, and they start to explore the different, Issues that they're having with taxation and mercantilism and all of the other things that went into the American Revolution and now you add beer to it at a public house where other people are chiming in.

Joel Hermensen: 00:22:16

Like, this just makes perfect sense.

Joel Hermensen: 00:22:18

So if I may

Gary Arndt: 00:22:19

put this in another way, as Allison has often said, as yeast poops out alcohol, beer poops out liberty.

Gary Arndt: 00:22:24

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: Oh my god, yes, I I

Joel Hermensen: 00:22:27

can can we get a shirt with that

Joel Hermensen: 00:22:28

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: Liberty is beer poop.

Joel Hermensen: 00:22:29

Yeah Like the declaration of independence was undoubtedly, you know written at the queen's Tavern in in part When when john adams and thomas jefferson and ben franklin were working on the document They were undoubtedly You You know, drinking beer, and in Jefferson's case, if he couldn't get the consistency of the porter that he liked, he was probably drinking Madeira, because he was a little bit of a, of a snob in that respect.

Joel Hermensen: 00:23:01

But, it's, it's totally appropriate to say that the American Revolution was fermented by beer.

Joel Hermensen: 00:23:08

Do you know why Madeira was so popular as opposed to

Gary Arndt: 00:23:10

other wines?

Gary Arndt: 00:23:12

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: I've been wanting to ask this question.

Gary Arndt: 00:23:13

What is Madeira wine?

Gary Arndt: 00:23:14

I don't even know.

Joel Hermensen: 00:23:15

Madeira.

Joel Hermensen: 00:23:15

There's a small Island off the coast of West Africa.

Gary Arndt: 00:23:21

No Madeira.

Gary Arndt: 00:23:23

The Gibraltar.

Gary Arndt: 00:23:24

It's in the Atlantic.

Gary Arndt: 00:23:26

It's a Portuguese Island.

Gary Arndt: 00:23:27

It's actually kind of close to the Azores.

Gary Arndt: 00:23:30

You've been there.

Gary Arndt: 00:23:31

Haven't you?

Gary Arndt: 00:23:32

So one place I haven't been, no, I've been invited like three times.

Gary Arndt: 00:23:35

Podcast has lost all credit,

Gary Arndt: 00:23:37

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: but

Gary Arndt: 00:23:38

it basically, it's, it's the closest Thing to the U S in terms of a wine producing region.

Gary Arndt: 00:23:43

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: Oh, interesting.

Gary Arndt: 00:23:44

It's

Gary Arndt: 00:23:44

simply proximity.

Gary Arndt: 00:23:45

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: So it is cheaper.

Gary Arndt: 00:23:46

Yeah.

Gary Arndt: 00:23:47

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: I mean, in the long haul,

Gary Arndt: 00:23:48

Interesting.

Joel Hermensen: 00:23:49

And before the Colombian exchange, that was the world's leading producer of sugar as well.

Joel Hermensen: 00:23:54

So there was a, a relationship that Europeans had with that particular location.

Gary Arndt: 00:24:01

And we should probably point out, this is the one thing many people might know is that Samuel Adams was a brewer.

Gary Arndt: 00:24:08

Yeah And that's why they named the brewery after

Joel Hermensen: 00:24:11

him.

Joel Hermensen: 00:24:12

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: Yeah.

Joel Hermensen: 00:24:12

Well, and and as I mentioned just a few minutes ago All of the founding fathers at some level had brewed ben franklin was arguably the most scientifically curious person in American history.

Joel Hermensen: 00:24:27

He was a father of the American Enlightenment.

Joel Hermensen: 00:24:29

Jefferson was curious.

Joel Hermensen: 00:24:30

They brewed.

Joel Hermensen: 00:24:32

Washington was a prolific brewer.

Joel Hermensen: 00:24:35

John Adams actually used more of his excess grain in distilling, but also had experience in brewing.

Joel Hermensen: 00:24:42

So, at, at some level, all of the Founding Fathers were being affected by some of the taxation changes that were coming through through.

Joel Hermensen: 00:24:53

Things like the Townsend Acts and, and other mercantilist policies of the British.

Joel Hermensen: 00:24:58

And the net result of that is, particularly when you add it to beer in these public houses, was, was the American Revolution.

Joel Hermensen: 00:25:07

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: I am having this crazy realization that I was not interested at all in history when I was younger.

Joel Hermensen: 00:25:12

And you didn't have me as a teacher.

Joel Hermensen: 00:25:13

That's fair.

Joel Hermensen: 00:25:14

But I had good teachers.

Joel Hermensen: 00:25:15

But when you don't have any experience in paying taxes or drinking beer and you're learning about all of these things, you're just like, I have no context for this.

Joel Hermensen: 00:25:22

And now I'm just like, Oh my God, the taxation.

Joel Hermensen: 00:25:25

Don't get me started on taxations and beer right now.

Joel Hermensen: 00:25:27

But I'm

Joel Hermensen: 00:25:29

That'll be podcast number 25.

Joel Hermensen: 00:25:31

Bye.

Joel Hermensen: 00:25:32

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: But no, I think we should require, you know, U.

Joel Hermensen: 00:25:35

S.

Joel Hermensen: 00:25:35

citizens to go back and take some more history classes just to

Joel Hermensen: 00:25:39

Such as our history class that runs in the fall at McFleshman.

Joel Hermensen: 00:25:43

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: Oh, there's a good idea.

Gary Arndt: 00:25:44

How much of the beer and brewing scene in, around Revolutionary America was urban versus what you would find in urban?

Gary Arndt: 00:25:56

Out in the sticks.

Gary Arndt: 00:25:57

And I asked this because after the revolution, one of the first big crises that the country faces is the whiskey rebellion and whiskey was the thing that most of the farmers in the West, which at that time was really as Western Pennsylvania we're converting all their grain to, they weren't converting it into beer.

Gary Arndt: 00:26:15

Cause it was more compact to, to put it into whiskey.

Gary Arndt: 00:26:18

Was this a, was this a phenomenon that in the public houses that were mainly seen in places like Boston, Philadelphia, New York.

Joel Hermensen: 00:26:25

Yes, I think beer, beer probably was being produced in rural areas.

Joel Hermensen: 00:26:30

However, I think it was far more common in urban areas.

Joel Hermensen: 00:26:33

You were much more likely to have a public house with a cask pulled, and I'm going to let go off on casks, you know, a cask pulled ale.

Joel Hermensen: 00:26:45

You were probably not going to find those.

Joel Hermensen: 00:26:47

You were in a rural area.

Joel Hermensen: 00:26:49

You're probably more likely to find distilled drinks.

Gary Arndt: 00:26:53

So in kind of making a generalization, you see more of these larger urban areas, which actually weren't that large at the time in the North.

Gary Arndt: 00:27:02

Yes.

Gary Arndt: 00:27:03

In the South.

Gary Arndt: 00:27:06

Virginia on that, there really aren't any, maybe Charleston is, is the biggest one.

Gary Arndt: 00:27:11

Do you think that was, I mean, they had a part to play.

Gary Arndt: 00:27:14

There were serious differences, obviously, between the North and the South, slavery being the biggest one, but also in their approaches, I think, to how they wanted to see the country form.

Joel Hermensen: 00:27:25

Their attitudes in beer were divergent too.

Joel Hermensen: 00:27:27

Beer was far more common in the North.

Joel Hermensen: 00:27:30

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: Particularly

Joel Hermensen: 00:27:30

in port cities

Joel Hermensen: 00:27:31

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: wondering, and I, I have no knowledge of this, but a question the, the average daily temperature though, I mean, so the fermentation, in order to get the yeast actually ferment to where it's a potable drink, you'd need to have a slightly cooler temperatures.

Joel Hermensen: 00:27:46

And so it would, is it even possible to have that in the south?

Joel Hermensen: 00:27:49

No.

Joel Hermensen: 00:27:49

And I'll use Mount Vernon as an example.

Joel Hermensen: 00:27:53

Washington would store his beer in a beer cellar.

Joel Hermensen: 00:27:57

and was very particular about usually drinking it within a week.

Joel Hermensen: 00:28:02

Because it would have soured and had gone foul to such a degree that they needed to, you know, get it out there as quickly as possible.

Joel Hermensen: 00:28:12

And I think we should also point out that given the nature of wild yeast versus what we brew with, you know, here and in home brewing situations, the beer was undoubtedly better.

Joel Hermensen: 00:28:26

Very sour and usually contaminated.

Joel Hermensen: 00:28:29

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: Yeah But then the distillation process is going to be just technically easier to do in the south.

Joel Hermensen: 00:28:35

Yes

Gary Arndt: 00:28:38

What sort of What was the alcohol content of the beer they were drinking?

Gary Arndt: 00:28:42

Was this high alcohol or rather low alcohol?

Gary Arndt: 00:28:44

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: 2.

Gary Arndt: 00:28:45

78%.

Joel Hermensen: 00:28:45

No, usually very low.

Joel Hermensen: 00:28:47

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: I have no idea.

Joel Hermensen: 00:28:49

And like Washington, I keep coming back to him because he was so prolific in writing in his journals.

Joel Hermensen: 00:28:54

Like he had a recipe for a small beer and a strong beer.

Joel Hermensen: 00:28:59

Now we don't, and I think they brewed these things at Colonial Williamsburg.

Joel Hermensen: 00:29:04

And I think the strong beer probably came out at about six, six and a half.

Joel Hermensen: 00:29:09

The small beer that they were brewing, super fast turnaround.

Joel Hermensen: 00:29:13

I mean, they would go through a, a boiling process.

Joel Hermensen: 00:29:16

They would then kind of allow the, the, the beer to come down to a normal temperature.

Joel Hermensen: 00:29:22

And then what they, there, there wasn't any refrigeration.

Joel Hermensen: 00:29:25

Which is, they, they're using almost all ale yeast, obviously.

Joel Hermensen: 00:29:30

They're using all ale yeast.

Joel Hermensen: 00:29:31

Which is then doing its best to probably ferment.

Joel Hermensen: 00:29:35

Something that hadn't been cooled properly, plus it's probably 75 degrees.

Joel Hermensen: 00:29:41

So, you're ending up with something that's really not very refined.

Joel Hermensen: 00:29:46

And the yeast, and you can talk about the chemistry of this, but the yeast is going to eat the beer, it's going to poop out the alcohol, et cetera, and it's going to affect the ABVs.

Joel Hermensen: 00:29:57

You want to take that over, chemist?

Joel Hermensen: 00:29:59

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: I, no, no, I just, quick Google search, the English small beer is less than 2.

Joel Hermensen: 00:30:06

8%.

Joel Hermensen: 00:30:06

So I was damn close.

Joel Hermensen: 00:30:07

Yeah,

Joel Hermensen: 00:30:08

it's it's not big.

Joel Hermensen: 00:30:10

Yeah, but With regards to ABV and chemistry, it's really difficult to drive up ABVs with inconsistent yeast and inconsistent temperature.

Joel Hermensen: 00:30:21

If the

Joel Hermensen: 00:30:21

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: yeast aren't healthy enough and if they don't have the right sugars, but then again, depending on There, there's, depending on the temperatures, depending on a lot of other external factors the chemical pathways you can almost think of it like kind of like a chutes and ladders game.

Joel Hermensen: 00:30:35

So where you have to set everything right to get to the one piece to land on the ladder that goes all the way to the top.

Joel Hermensen: 00:30:41

And unless everything falls into place, you're probably going to end on the ladder that goes only up two or three or whatever.

Joel Hermensen: 00:30:46

I play chutes and ladders a lot.

Joel Hermensen: 00:30:47

I have a five year old.

Joel Hermensen: 00:30:47

Yeah,

Joel Hermensen: 00:30:48

I played chutes and ladders with your five year old many times, and she always ends up on that ladder that goes from like Right, so she is like a perfectly propagated

Joel Hermensen: 00:30:56

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: yeast that is very healthy.

Joel Hermensen: 00:30:57

Yeah.

Joel Hermensen: 00:30:58

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: But anyway, but so what happens is at the higher temperatures, there's a lot of different chemical pathways that open up that wouldn't be open for the chemicals to, to go through that process at the lower temperature.

Gary Arndt: 00:31:08

so if you were to go back in time, You're teleported back to Revolutionary America.

Gary Arndt: 00:31:15

You go into a pub.

Gary Arndt: 00:31:17

Do you think you would actually like that beer?

Joel Hermensen: 00:31:19

Me?

Gary Arndt: 00:31:19

Yeah.

Joel Hermensen: 00:31:20

Oh, you know me really well.

Joel Hermensen: 00:31:21

What do you think?

Gary Arndt: 00:31:23

No, because there are no hops.

Gary Arndt: 00:31:24

Right.

Gary Arndt: 00:31:25

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: I probably, I think I probably You would be okay.

Gary Arndt: 00:31:27

I would be okay.

Gary Arndt: 00:31:28

I probably would The The acrid notes and some of the souring and such would probably not as blend, blend as well with the malt.

Gary Arndt: 00:31:39

And probably the mouthfeel would be weird, but I, I like cast conditioned ales, which are going to be a lower carbonation.

Gary Arndt: 00:31:46

There's a subtle sweetness that's complimented by the hops and the, the, or compliment, the malts are complimented by the hops that just kind of cut the sweetness.

Gary Arndt: 00:31:56

But the hops aren't forward at all.

Gary Arndt: 00:31:58

And so, these beers would not have had any hop character whatsoever.

Gary Arndt: 00:32:01

So I think I probably would have liked it.

Gary Arndt: 00:32:04

Although I'd also be a woman and probably not, you know, allowed to drink.

Gary Arndt: 00:32:08

And then I would be really pissed.

Gary Arndt: 00:32:09

And then I would take down the patriarchy.

Gary Arndt: 00:32:11

Because you know what?

Gary Arndt: 00:32:12

F the patriarchy.

Gary Arndt: 00:32:14

Oh, did I digress?

Gary Arndt: 00:32:15

I'm sorry.

Gary Arndt: 00:32:16

That was, yes.

Gary Arndt: 00:32:19

Alright, well that's gonna conclude this episode.

Gary Arndt: 00:32:21

We'll leave that on a high note.

Gary Arndt: 00:32:23

Please remember to join our Facebook group and support us over on Patreon.

Gary Arndt: 00:32:26

Links to both of which are in the show notes.

Gary Arndt: 00:32:28

And until next time, please remember to respect the beer.