Shownotes
📺 Watch & Subscribe on YouTube
In this episode, Dr. Jane Levesque, a naturopathic doctor and natural fertility expert, interviews Cathy Cooke, a holistic nutritionist and certified building biology environmental consultant. They delve into the critical issues of mold exposure and electromagnetic fields (EMF) in homes, discussing their impact on health, particularly fertility. Kathy shares her personal journey with chronic health issues and how addressing mold and EMF in her environment led to significant improvements. The conversation covers practical tips for identifying and mitigating mold and EMF in homes, the importance of thorough inspections, and preventive measures to maintain a healthy living space. This episode is a must-listen for anyone dealing with unexplained health issues or looking to optimize their home environment for better health.
==========
STOP wasting time and suppressing your anxiety. Let's navigate your fertility journey together, so you can feel more confident and prepared for this next BIG chapter of your life. In Fertility 101, you'll join Dr. Jane, the creator of the Maximize Your Fertility Program, to learn how to enhance your fertility naturally. Participate in bi-weekly calls with Dr. Jane and learn alongside a private community of women on similar journeys.
Every month, Dr. Jane takes on 2 couples where she works with them 1:1 to identify and overcome the root cause of their infertility.
==========
Key Takeaways
00:01:30: Cathy’s Background and Career Path
00:05:34: Understanding Mold and EMF Sensitivity
00:11:41: Identifying Mold in Your Home
00:17:23: Testing Options for Mold
00:21:22: Importance of Thorough Inspections
00:25:15: When to Remediate Mold
00:27:18: Cleaning and Maintenance Tips
00:31:40: Importance of Pre-Purchase Inspections
00:34:03: Ensuring Proper Remediation
00:42:25: Preventative Measures for Mold
00:48:34: Timeline for Removing Mold from the Body
00:53:29: Building Mold-Resistant Homes
00:54:55: Cathy’s Upcoming Course and Resources
Memorable Quotes
"Our ovaries are developed when our grandmothers are pregnant with our mothers. And because basically 100% of our mitochondria is passed on from our mother, what we need to understand is the history and the health and the well-being, not just of our mother, but of our grandmother, especially during pregnancy."
"Taking progesterone is not going to fix that. And so we have to start looking at a bigger picture. So then we can, number one, truly heal ourselves, but number two, stop passing generational disease onto the next generation."
"When I see, for example, a lot of my unexplained infertility cases, they have insane levels of environmental toxins, and usually they're anxious, they have digestive issues, whether it's constipation or loose stools or nausea."
Connect with Cathy Cooke
Website - https://wholehomeandbodyhealth.com/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/wholehomeandbodyhealth/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/groups/1004227729926803
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/cathy-cooke/
Cathy’s Course on how to address mold remediation from a holistic perspective:
https://summit.healthiertech.co/a/2147701581/m65Yyacu
Connect With Dr. Jane Levesque
Website - https://www.drjanelevesque.com/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/drjanelevesque/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/DrJaneLevesque/
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@dr.janelevesque7319
🎙️
Podcast Production & Marketing by FullCast
This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:
Chartable - https://chartable.com/privacy
Transcripts
Cathy Cooke
0:00 - 0:26
There are circumstances where for some reason, I know I have a mold exposure, but I can't remediate right now. So keeping cleaning is going to help you reduce the overall fungal load. Right? And the mycotoxins live on the spores. So if we can clean up the spores and keep the dust load down in our house, we're going to reduce our exposure. And that's very important.
Dr. Jane Levesque
0:26 - 1:17
ert. Tune in every Tuesday at:
Cathy Cooke
1:17 - 1:29
Yeah, so excited to talk with you. I'm really glad that you got to go to Eco. What an awesome event. And really happy to continue the conversation with your audience.
Dr. Jane Levesque
1:30 - 1:46
Yeah. So first question, like when I was reading about you and even like listening to you talk, I'm like, what a fascinating combination you are. Holistic nutritionist. You're a certified building biology environmental consultant and an electromagnetic radiation specialist.
Cathy Cooke
1:46 - 1:47
Yeah.
Dr. Jane Levesque
1:47 - 1:49
How did we get to this place?
Cathy Cooke
1:49 - 5:14
ng as a nutritionist in about:
Dr. Jane Levesque
5:14 - 5:17
Yep. Yeah. And that's where the mold, it came in as well. I'm assuming.
Cathy Cooke
5:17 - 5:33
Yes, exactly. Yeah. I didn't actually plan to do a lot of mold inspections, but since I was trained in it and people started calling me, and then it just snowballed, and then I just. The more I learned, I was like, oh, okay. I guess I'm a mold expert now. And then. That's kind of how it happens.
Dr. Jane Levesque
5:34 - 6:00
I guess. That's how it happens, yeah. So let's talk. I mean, I think both, like, the mold and EMF, that's something. I mean, arguably, mold can be an invisible toxin as well. It can be visible, but this is where I think a lot of people have a hard time wrapping their head around. So can we talk about, you know, how do you even know you have mold in the house? Or how do you know? Because not everybody is this sensitive to EMF. So would you say that there is a level of sensitivity for certain people?
Cathy Cooke
6:00 - 7:37
Definitely. So the research out there right now shows that about three to 5% of the population is what we would call electro hypersensitive, which not everybody resonates with that term, because, you know, are you sensitive to a thing that our bodies are? It's impacting us, but three to 5% is, like, severely sensitive, where, you know, I have clients that can't even turn on a light switch. Like, I mean, extreme. Extreme levels of sensitivity. And then about up to maybe 30 or 40% of us are having symptoms, and we can recognize it. And when we reduce our exposure, we feel better, and then we're not quite sure yet how much of the population is having symptoms, but they're not making the connection. Right. So my anxiety, my headaches, my heart palpitations, irritability, is that from my wifi and cell phone exposure? So I don't know that we know a number there yet, but we do know, you know, 30, 40% of the population definitely having symptoms. Solid three to 5% severe symptoms, where it makes everyday function very, very difficult. So I suspect the numbers are higher. It's just that a lot of us aren't making the connection or aren't willing to really look at it. And then to kind of elaborate on that, my most sensitive EMF clients have had a significant mold exposure. So, you know, bringing it back to that mold piece, there's definitely a connection there between my EMF symptoms and something that has happened to trigger my nervous system. And a lot of times, that's the mold exposure. Yeah.
Dr. Jane Levesque
7:37 - 8:07
So that's beautiful, because that's what I want to know. I had an EMF assessment done. I mean, I think it's probably been about a year ago, and I suspect a little bit of mold in our house as well. And since we've had the EMF done, like he. We had to do some rewiring, I noticed a really big difference in the house and just how it feels. So I'd love to know, what is the connection between the EMFs and the mold? Is it the mold exposure that comes first? Is it the EMF? You know, chicken or the egg? Does it really matter?
Cathy Cooke
8:08 - 9:39
Well, there's so many variables, you know, and I think it's important that on your work, like, you understand, you don't recommend the same protocol for everybody because everybody's body is so unique and individual. So typically, there's often there's an event that can trigger someone to have more EMF symptoms, and, you know, there's a precursor. So a lot of times it's mold, but it could also be a trauma. It could be an emotional trauma. It could be a physical trauma, like a concussion. I have many clients who. One had a bonk on his head, one person fell back and had a spinal issue, and they became sensitive like that. Right. So trauma, infections, parasites, sibo, sifo, you could put mold in there. So. And then there's some people that can't identify a precursor or a trigger. So I think it's a wide spectrum. And, you know, given that we're all different, it just depends. And there's definitely some genetics that I think can play into this as well. So I don't think there's a linear path, but I definitely will say if you've had one of these precursors, even a heavy metal exposure, then your chances of having symptoms are higher. But with those precursors, like, who among us have not had a trauma or an exposure to something in this day and age? Most of us have.
Dr. Jane Levesque
-:So, yeah, and, like, is there a. I don't know if, like, scientific is the right word, but I, like, I remember my EMF person when he came in the assessment. He's like, it's the way that the wiring will change how the bacteria basically will shape and talk to one another. And because we are walking bacteria, then obviously it's going to impact our health. And again, I know I'm brutaling it because I can't remember, is there a connection like that, that the EMF is causing you to be more sensitive to mold, or it's usually the other way around.
Cathy Cooke
-:Good question. So I think. I definitely think that we need some more solid science to show, you know, are we talking about, like, quorum sensing between bacteria, and then the EMFS impact that quorum sensing or what the activity is there. I've definitely seen some research that EMF exposure can impact overgrowth or can kind of act like an antibiotic in some situations. But still, I think we need a lot more robust science there. A lot of the science of this field looks at the voltage gated calcium channels, right? So we've got voltage gates on most of our cells that will allow in a little bit of calcium as needed as necessary. But when we are exposed to these non native fields, these human made fields, the voltage gates can kind of get stuck open, allowing a lot of calcium ion on the inside of that cell. And then we get this downstream effect of oxidative stress. And then, you know, what does oxidative stress mean? Well, that's going to present itself in many different ways for the person. Right. So the symptom or the illness could be, what, infertility? Yeah, absolutely. So I feel very confident that there is a connection between the bacteria, how it's playing out, this specific mechanism. I'm not, I don't know that we know yet, but sure. I mean, it's definitely impacting the bacteria.
Dr. Jane Levesque
-:Okay, so, I mean, let's talk about mold, because that's a big hot topic. How do you know you have mold, you know, in the house.
Cathy Cooke
-:Oh, boy.
Dr. Jane Levesque
-:Besides seeing it, because it's not visible all the time. So you're going into houses all the time to do assessments, is that right?
Cathy Cooke
-:Definitely. So you don't always know. So most of my clients are referred to me by medical professionals for mold assessments. And so, you know, my population, of course, is skewed, but I'm finding it. The large 98% of the time, I'm finding mold in a client's house. So how do they know they have it?
Dr. Jane Levesque
-:That's crazy. 98% of the times you're finding it.
Cathy Cooke
-:Oh, yeah. I mean, and that doesn't mean that every time it's very, very significant, but usually the large majority of the time saying, you need remediation, you have to have a company come in here and remediate. So. But again, my population is definitely skewed. So to your question, usually there's a suspicion because of symptoms that a person is having, and then they may have done some testing, like a mycotoxin test or the shoemaker labs or a VC's test, which is the visual contrast test. So that will give us some cues that maybe there's something in the house or one very easy method of kind of exploring this is I always ask my clients, do you feel better when you leave the house? Are your symptoms reduced? And a lot of times the answer is yes. And so I live in Idaho, so I say go camping for a week and then see how you feel. And if you feel awful the second you walk in the door of your.
Dr. Jane Levesque
-:House, it's pretty clear there's something in the house that's making you sick.
Cathy Cooke
-:Yeah, yeah. So you're right. We can't always see it. But honestly, the majority of the time my clients will say, oh, well, we had this water event a year ago, or, well, we did have this leak happen. Or when we moved in, they found mold in the crawl space or there's so often signs of it, but they're not quite connecting, that that water event was a mold issue. So if you really think about your house and if you've had any water intrusion, there's likely some mold there. Oftentimes you can see it, you know, I mean, I'm thinking of one house that I went into and the clients were in this house for several years and they said, well, there's this little spot in the garage. But, you know, the home inspector when we moved in said it was dry, so it was fine, it was no big deal. I was like, great. So I walk into the garage and I couldn't even speak because it was like 10ft of mold on the drywall. I was like a little spot. I was like, this is, you know, it compassed the entire space around the utilities, the water heater and the furnace, and it was massive. And so sometimes it is there. People just aren't. They don't realize that it's a problem. Dead or alive, dried, old, doesn't matter. It's still there. So sometimes we know, sometimes we don't know. Sometimes it can hide. And that's where, if it's not obvious we haven't had a water event, we can't see it. We test, right? And there's many different ways to test and we use moisture meters and infrared cameras and all that stuff to find it. So sometimes we know, sometimes we don't.
Dr. Jane Levesque
-:And is because honestly, I think this happens way too many times when we have an inspector come in. It's just like when you go to the doctor and you have this figure of authority that you are trusting and then they say like, oh, your symptoms are normal, right? All of us have had that happiness practitioners. So it sounds like it's the same thing that can happen in the home inspection world where, oh, it's just a little spot. Don't worry about it. And then people go, oh, okay. I don't have to worry about it. Am I getting that right? Like, is. How often is that happening?
Cathy Cooke
-:Very, very often. So there's. It's kind of like, you know, the medical system versus a functional medicine or naturopath. We're coming at it from a different angle here. So the home inspector, in my experience, there's some amazing home inspectors out there, and there's some amazing inspectors that are very knowledgeable about mold. In my experience, most of them are not. They don't think it's a problem. So they may see mold. And what I think is a significant problem that could be a potential trigger for health problems. Most inspectors do not.
Dr. Jane Levesque
-:And that's just like lack of education or what?
Cathy Cooke
-:Sometimes, yes. And sometimes their honest belief is they don't think mold is problematic. They think people like me are over the top and crazy and fear mongering. I mean, they tell me that. I've heard it. I mean, people will tell me, and they just don't, I don't know if it's lack of education, willful ignorance, or. They haven't had an. A lot of times they haven't personally had an experience, and I have seen this where they were deniers, and then someone in their family was exposed and had a severe experience, and then suddenly they're like, oh, now I understand. Okay, you weren't making this up. Like, you're not fear mongering. So sometimes it just takes, you know, because if you're perfectly healthy your whole life and you're an inspector and you go into moldy houses all the time and you've never had a health problem, well, then why would you think it's a, you know, it's not a problem. So there's a lot of reasons, I think, why it's that way right now. But I do think that the tide is shifting a little bit, which I'm optimistic about.
Dr. Jane Levesque
-:Yeah, I would agree. So what are. Let's talk about some testing options, professional versus, like, I know there's some home toolkits as well. Can you speak about any of them and the validity and what you recommend?
Cathy Cooke
-:So, you know, I think a good inspection is the best. Right. And there are very good inspectors. And then there's inspectors that just, like we were just talking about, you know, mold inspectors, home inspectors. They come in and take a couple air samples, and they're like, everything's great. And that's not very helpful. So let's start with maybe some DIy options. So there's the plates, right? People can. You can go to a box store and get the plates and they're inexpensive. They might. Oh, there's immunolytics. Well, the ermie's different. The ermie is a dust collection. I'll get to that after the plates. The plates are like agar, right? It's agar, and they're very inexpensive. So it's. The benefit is that it's easily accessible, less cost. You can go to Home Depot or wherever, buy them, and then you put the plates out in your house, and then you cover it up with foil, and then you wait a couple days and see what grows. The challenge with that is twofold. One, it's only going to recognize viable, like, living spores. Right. So if I've got an old, like, in the garage decline. I was just explaining, if I put a plate there, it's not going to capture anything because it has to be a spore that lands on there and starts eating the agar and then grows. A non viable spore is not going to do that. But a non viable spore still can have mycotoxins on it, which can make us sick. So if the exposure that you have in your house is old, dormant, it's not going. The plates will not capture that. And on the other hand, let's say it's. You do one of these in the kitchen and you've got compost, okay? There's mold there, and these spores are going to jump onto that plate and they're going to have a party, because it's just purely food and they're going to go nuts. And then you're going to open that in two days and go, oh, my God, I have this massive problem. So it's not really representative of what's going on in your house. So I'm a little weary of those. Then we've got the ermy. So, the ermy, very, very popular. You know, this is a PCR DNA test where you collect the dust of your home and you. And it helps you look at the overall fungal load of the home. Those can be helpful, but we can have false positives and false negatives with the ermia as well. So we need to be very, very careful about the interpretation and we need to be careful about how we collect the sample. You know, are we collecting dust that is five years old, where our level is going to be much higher? We've never cleaned the ducts in our house. We're going to have a high score, and we need to consider what's going on outside? You know, do I live next to a pond? Is there agriculture out there? Is there a lemon tree outside? That's, you know, and it's fall. Like. I really like to do an outdoors control sample and an indoor if we're going to do the ermy. So it's a good screening tool, but we need to have somebody very skilled in the interpretation. We need to take an outdoor control, and we need to then look at the overall picture of the history of the house, the age, the symptoms of people in the house to see if we can correlate, like, you know, the mold types that are present with what's going on with the person. So it can be helpful, but it has its limitations. So those are the main two DIY tests. And then there's the inspection. You know, coming back to the inspection, which I think is the most important, because a good inspector is gonna look at every inch of your house and be able to develop a theory about what might be going on. And then they're going to take more samples, maybe air samples, if they're very good in targeted samples, swabs, tape lifts. And then if we combine that, maybe with an ermi, then we start to get some good, relevant information.
Dr. Jane Levesque
-:Yeah. Did you mention something about their infrared heat? Because I think I've seen some of that stuff coming.
Cathy Cooke
-:Yeah. So thermal imaging should be a standard tool that an inspector is using. And the benefit of the thermal imaging is it's going to tell us where cold spots are. So water will hold its thermal properties much longer than the air. So if you've got a leak in your wall, we should be able to see that with our thermal camera. The challenge, though, you know, if I'm in Idaho in July and it hasn't rained in two months and there's a leak coming in from the roof, I'm not going to capture it that day. And if it rains tomorrow and I came back tomorrow, I might capture it then. So it also has its limitations, but it can be valuable for picking up water leaks. I was in a house a couple days ago and saw some thermal imaging on the bathroom floor. Sure enough, there was a leak getting under the tile, so it's helpful. But none of our tools are 100% because we can't. A thermal imaging or a moisture meter won't pick up an exposure that happened or a water event that happened two years ago, even though there could be mold there. So, you know, we have to use all the tools to collect as much information as we can.
Dr. Jane Levesque
-:Well, that brings me to my next question, is there like a credential site of picking out? Because I think I had an inspector come in and they just did the air for whatever, 1015 minutes. And like, everything is good. And it's like, okay, I'm pretty sure it's not good. So how do you know who is a good inspector? Because I very much also talk to my patients like, hey, it's not just about the labs, it's the interpretation. So your labs are only as good as the interpreter. And that sounds like it's the same thing. You really need a good interpreter.
Cathy Cooke
-:Great question. So you can. Well, one, you can look up building biology institute. So. And they have a page on their website that says, find an expert. So you can look for a building biologist. Now, I will say not all building biologists do air quality. Most of them get into the field for the EMF. So there's actually not many of us that do both EMF and mold. But you could, you know, it's a place to start. You can also look at Normie, the Normie website, which is national organization for remediators and mold inspectors, and they have a little bit more awareness about the health implications. So you could look up a Normie inspector as well. And then really a lot of it is just word of mouth. So putting out on some, you know, there's many, many Facebook groups for mold. Right. Hey, do you have an inspector in, you know, somewhere, Florida or wherever you are? That's one of the best ways, because getting experience from people who have been through the process will really help you identify a good inspector. And then you can also call them. So if you don't have those resources and you call the inspector and say, hey, tell me about your process. And if they're like, great, we're going to come in and we're going to take five air samples, and that's all they say. Well, then, you know, that's not good. If they're going to spend 2030 minutes on the phone with you and ask you what your symptoms are, the history of your house, have you had water damage? You know, I'm using an infrared camera. I'm using moisture meters. It's going to take me 6 hours. Okay. You know that person's good, right?
Dr. Jane Levesque
-:Yeah. That's gonna be more legit, right?
Cathy Cooke
-:So you can kind of weed that out with just talking to them about their process, too.
Dr. Jane Levesque
-:What were you gonna say? What's your average assessment? How long?
Cathy Cooke
-:Well, I mean, I'm usually never shorter than 4 hours, you know, depending on the size of the house. So most inspectors will come in like, yeah, I'll be there an hour. Well, you know, that's not good. If they say four, five, six, 7 hours, a lot, you know, you know, they're being a lot more thorough.
Dr. Jane Levesque
-:That's good to know. Okay. And then the next question is like, well, how do you know that it's time to remediate? Is it anytime you find mold, is it for sure remediation, or is it just a good cleanup?
Cathy Cooke
-:You do not. Remediation is not necessary every time. And you need to be good news.
Dr. Jane Levesque
-:That's the good news.
Cathy Cooke
-:Absolutely. And we need. I mean, we really need to be honest and cautious about recommendations for our clients. Right. Like, you know, this, like, okay, you know, this lab is a little bit out of range. Does this mean I need action? Not necessarily so totally. It depends on the type of mold, the sensitivity of the people in the house. Budget, you know, budget is definitely concerned. Are you gonna be there forever? Like, I have clients where I found some significant issues, but they're like, well, we were thinking about moving in a year. Okay, well, let's weigh that out.
Dr. Jane Levesque
-:You're probably not gonna drop 50 grand on remediation if you're leaving. Yeah.
Cathy Cooke
-:So every situation is very unique, and we need to think about the overall picture and have an honest conversation with the clients about if it's important. So I will say, you know, for me, since most of my clients are coming to me for medical reasons, I'm erring on the side of, yeah, usually we're going to remediate, but sometimes we prioritize. I usually find more than one. It's not usually one issue, you know, it's multiple. So. All right, let's identify what's the biggest exposure here. I have stachybotrys over here in the bathroom, and I've got a little cladosporium in the attic. Well, I'm going to remediate the stachybotrys because that's much more toxic than the cladosporium. Right. So we can prioritize.
Dr. Jane Levesque
-:And also location, like attic versus bathroom.
Cathy Cooke
-:Exactly. So you just oftentimes, hopefully, your inspector will walk you through and help you to prioritize what needs to happen and determine if that's the best action, you know, for you, because it's not always absolutely necessary.
Dr. Jane Levesque
-:Yeah. What are some other things that you could do, like, besides remediation? What are. Is there. Because I know everyone. I cleaned it with chlorine. Right. I cleaned it with bleach. So let's talk about what are some ways that we can clean up, not necessarily remediate. Right.
Cathy Cooke
-:Great question. So there are circumstances where for some reason, I know I have a mold exposure, but I can't remediate right now. So keeping cleaning is going to help you reduce the overall fungal load. Right. And the mycotoxins live on the spores. So if we can clean up the spores and keep the dust load down in our house, we're going to reduce our exposure, and that's very important. So if we've got carpets having a really good sealed vacuum, to vacuum often, and then really what, we don't need anything fancy. We don't need fancy chemicals, we don't need essential oils, you know, we don't need any of these fancy products. We just need soap and water and microfiber cloths. So the microfiber cloth has these little, like, villi on it, which can help trap the dirt in the mold spores. And then soap and water is just a good surfactant. So we get our little microfiber cloth, we spray it a few times with the very diluted solution of soap and water, and we wipe. Right. And that's how we get the dust and the mold up out of our house. And then we throw that cloth away and then we get a new one.
Dr. Jane Levesque
-:So you don't even try to wash it off?
Cathy Cooke
-:Nope. Nope. I mean, if we're dealing with a known mold exposure, we're using the disposable wipes, which I don't love for environmental reasons, but, like, we just kind of have to. So, I mean, I know one of my colleagues was working with a client who had a leak in the wall under a window, and she was a renter and she couldn't leave right then, so she just, you know, every day she would wipe up that area with the microfiber cloth and the soap and water, and it was enough to keep her symptoms down in her fungal exposure very low so that she could stay there until she had the means to move. So not ideal, of course, but doing those things can be very, very helpful because that's going to help us reduce, you know, what we're exposed to daily. So hygiene is very important. Getting the ducts cleaned, having a good air purifier with a HEPA filter airflow, opening windows, you know, dilution.
Dr. Jane Levesque
-:Yeah, I don't know if you've heard of the Jasper for air filter. They're kind of the new kids on the block, but, yeah, I've loved them. It's my. We just came back from an Airbnb. And I'm like, it's so dusty and, like, I can smell mold here. So it's like, open all the windows. Have them open as much as we can. And on the last night, one of my girls woke up with like a cough because it's just like, you know, four nights or whatever, like, her system couldn't handle it. We got home last night, Jasper, clean house windows. Like, no cough, no runny nose gone. So, you know, it's like, it's funny because we automatically. The old me would have been like, oh, no, she's getting sick because she's stressed from the travel or whatever the new me is. Like, there's mold, there was a bad environment and the sleeping, and it was. It's incredible. Like, this morning she woke up, she had no symptoms at all, whereas yesterday I'm like, she's coughing, you know, and she has this runny nose, and we're like, okay, you know, what do we do? And it's like, oh, she just needed clean air in a clean space.
Cathy Cooke
-:Yeah. I'm glad you mentioned the Jasper. They're my go to is the only filter I have on my site. There are other very good filters, but I so respect the owner, and he's very transparent. Walking.
Dr. Jane Levesque
-:Yeah, I love Mike.
Cathy Cooke
-:He's awesome. Yeah.
Dr. Jane Levesque
-:So, yeah, I've had him on the podcast and he, like, captured me right away. And, yeah, so he. That's the only one I recommend now, too. And, like, he's just really smart, right? Like, he tells you how to use it. And I never really looked at air quality like that, so it's good. I'm glad you know him as well. Okay, so keeping a clean environment, and then essentially, like, what I'm just, to summarize, make sure I got this right. It's like, hey, we want to have a good inspection. Now, do you recommend that everyone gets an inspection? Like, what about getting into a new house? Like, buying a new house, versus, like, do you only get an inspection if somebody in a house has symptoms? Because not everybody's going to react to. To mold.
Cathy Cooke
-:Right, right.
Dr. Jane Levesque
-:Like, this is the genetic component.
Cathy Cooke
-:Yeah, genetic or just, you know, how full is your bucket? Right?
Dr. Jane Levesque
-:Totally. Yeah.
Cathy Cooke
-:I mean, in my world, I want everyone to have an inspection because I don't want every, you know, even if you're perfectly healthy, if you're living with stachybotrys in your wall, eventually it's gonna get you, you know, so it depends, like, if anyone who's willing to spend the money to have a good inspection, I say 100% do it because it's prevention, right?
Dr. Jane Levesque
-:Yeah. What's the cost of an inspection? Like a good inspection? Is it like $1,000, a couple thousand bucks?
Cathy Cooke
-:Totally depends on the size of the house and how, you know, the inspector. But 1000 and up, I would say. And we're all, our pricing's kind of all over the place. But you're gonna want, you're gonna spend probably at least 1000.
Dr. Jane Levesque
-:You don't want to spend $1,000 on somebody who's coming in for 45 minutes into your house. But if they're saying, like, to me, I'm like, okay, it's probably at least $200 rate. And if they're coming in for four to five to 7 hours, again, that's going to depend on the house, then, like, you can do the math. But if they're saying it's a, they're going to be in there for 45 minutes, then you're probably not going to get a good.
Cathy Cooke
-:Yep. Exactly.
Dr. Jane Levesque
-:Inspection.
Cathy Cooke
-:Exactly. Yeah.
Dr. Jane Levesque
-:Okay. So everyone should technically, and like, would you recommend if you're looking to buy a house, that you'd get someone to come in?
Cathy Cooke
-:That would probably be the most important time. I mean, other than, you know, you're really sick and dealing with problems. But a home inspection, because God forbid you buy this house and get into this house and then go, oh, whoops. Now we have this big thing, so very, very important to do that pre purchase inspection. And I would throw in the EMF there, too, because I have many clients that just bought this beautiful new house. And then I go, and I'm like, you've got this huge magnetic field from the power line outside and there's nothing you can do about it. Like, heartbreaking, right?
Dr. Jane Levesque
-:Totally.
Cathy Cooke
-:Yes, I definitely recommend that. And, you know, a lot of times when I'm on a pre purchase inspection, I'm there a lot longer than the home inspector, and I'm, you know, maybe only doing mold and maybe half an hour of EMF or something. So, yeah, I just, God forbid that, you know, you don't. You're investing this huge amount of money in this new home. Make sure it's safe before you move in, for sure.
Dr. Jane Levesque
-:Yeah. Okay. And so then once it's done, because this is something that you talked a lot about at eco, it actually being done properly. Because I've had clients, I'm sure you've had clients come to you and say, but the mold has been remediated, but they still have their symptoms, you know, how do you know it's actually done correctly. Again, is that going to stem from the inspector? Is there a body of, yeah. Representatives that you can go to?
Cathy Cooke
-:So that is the very big challenge because most remediation companies use antifungals, and that is one of their primary methods for the remediation process. But we know that antifungals are not appropriate for remediation, which seems kind of counterintuitive. Like, well, I've got this microbial issue. Don't I want to kill it? Because that's what, you know, if we've got Sibo or CFO or parasite, like, okay, let's kill it. So it makes sense. But for mold in the home, it's different, because if we use an antifungal, and this is what most remediation companies do, they come in, maybe they take the drywall off, and they're like, cool, we got this. We're going to spray this antifungal, and then we're going to put everything back together. But in that circumstance, mold is actually going to release mycotoxins when it feels threatened. Right. That's its survival mechanism. So if we spray a chemical on it and then maybe actually increase the cytotoxicity of the mold, we have more mycotoxins now, and there's documented research on this, so we don't want to do that. Plus, it's a chemical, and a lot of times it's a toxic chemical, which can, you know, increase Vocs and our chemical exposure. And for a sensitive person, like, no, we don't want that for anybody. We don't want that. So what they should be doing is abrasive removal, which is sanding, Hepa, vacuuming, wire brushing, to physically remove the mold on the remaining building materials. And of course, you know, we need to have really good containment here, negative air pressure, so we help prevent cross contamination. We're sealing off the ductwork, etcetera. So there's obviously a lot more to it. But if you're going through remediation, you need to make sure that the remediation company is willing to follow the industry guidelines and use abrasive removal instead of a chemical. And that's going to be difficult to find. So when you're talking to the remediation company, ask them their process, and they're going to say, yep, we use this antifungal, blah, blah, blah. And then you say, okay, are you willing to follow the S 520 guidelines and do only abrasive removal? And if they say, absolutely not, then you're not going to work with them.
Dr. Jane Levesque
-:That's not a company. Yeah.
Cathy Cooke
-:So that can take a little bit of work to find a company. And I actually do. I have a course on mold remediation that I created for the healthier tech lifestyle web company. And then it takes you through step by step, the process that should happen. So if anybody needs more information, like, you can get this course and then talk to your remediation company. This is how I want it to go. And hopefully they will follow those guidelines. I do recommend having a third party inspector there to oversee that, to make sure that the remediation company is doing it properly.
Dr. Jane Levesque
-:Yeah, it's unfortunate that we have to do that, but, like, that's just the reality. I mean, I'm seeing that in the health field all the time where people are like, oh, my doctor ran lab work, and it was fine. And you're like, what lab work did he run? He didn't test anything. Like, even the doctors were like, oh, I've tested them for everything. And we specifically gave them a list. It's like, they're like, well, I didn't see why this was important. It's just like, okay, so we have to really take matters into our own hands, whether it's the blood work or remediation. And I'm really happy to promote the course. So, like, whenever this comes live to share the link, because I think it's really useful for everybody who's dealing with mold.
Cathy Cooke
-:Yeah. And, you know, obviously, I'm not here to promote myself, but we need it sometimes we need source.
Dr. Jane Levesque
-:We need this information out. So you are here for that.
Cathy Cooke
-:Yes. Right.
Dr. Jane Levesque
-:No, we need this information out. And, I mean, one of the reasons where your talk at eco really sparked, because I have people all the time. I test the mycotoxins and the total environmental toxic load, and I test couples. And so I find I can see what's a kind of almost current exposure versus past exposure based on what comes up in their labs. But even then, I know that, for example, like, the female will be really reactive to mold, where the male won't be, or vice versa, but you'll still see the same strains. So, like, the male might have it in the green, almost in the yellow, where the women will have it in the red or the yellow, and you're like, okay, so you guys are either breathing this in or you're digesting. And of course, you can see which kind of mold it is, and then it's, oh, yeah, we've had mold issue, but we remediated it, and it's a year ago or two years ago, and it's like, well, I don't think that you did, you know, because something is still popping out.
Cathy Cooke
-:Yeah. So important. And there's one house, one client that I'm thinking of that, you know, a lot of my work is kind of, like, very heartbreaking. Right. I mean, I've been on inspections where I've just had to stop midway through, and I'm, like, so overwhelmed because I'm finding so much.
Dr. Jane Levesque
-:You gotta blow up this house. Yeah.
Cathy Cooke
-:And I'm like, sorry, you're gonna have.
Dr. Jane Levesque
-:To blow this up.
Cathy Cooke
-:And it's so. It just makes. It brings me to tears. So I'm thinking of this one house where, you know, a young family, four small kids, everyone's having health problems, and there's ones that were born in this house, and they've had respiratory stuff their entire life, and they just did this huge remediation in the kitchen. And I got my flashlight back there looking behind the dishwasher, and I'm like, okay, well, it's still here. How much money did you spend on this remediation? Because I can just see it. Right. So, yes, to your point, remediation was done, but it wasn't done very thoroughly. So now they have to rip out the kitchen again. And ultimately, in this house, I was like, I think you have to gut.
Dr. Jane Levesque
-:This house tens of thousands of dollars. Yeah. Like, I would just leave the house.
Cathy Cooke
-:I know.
Dr. Jane Levesque
-:So what a good point, though, like, because one of the things that I really try to break in my community is, like, you weren't even if you were born this way, there was a reason. Right? Like, my girl was born with a little bit of a raspy lung. And I remember I was pregnant with her. The last months of my pregnancy, we had really crazy wildfire season. And I remember getting a lot of headaches and being. And it's like, man, I wonder how much of that and the way she grew out of it is by improving air quality, making sure. Right. And then when she was put it, like, we stayed at a bad Airbnb, but it was only four days, and so it's like, they can handle. You can handle a four day exposure, you know? I believe in raising resiliency within the kids, and I obviously did a lot of stuff as well. And it's like, she got a cough right away. It's like that raspy lung came back within that four days. And then, hey, look at that. We changed the environment, and it changes. So it's like, if we can open up the eyes for people that it's like you're not just born with lung issues. And even if you are born with them, it's because you were born into, for example, a moldy house.
Cathy Cooke
-:Yeah, that's brilliant. Like, you're going to have a predisposition. So when you're re exposed, that's your weak spot and that's going to present itself. But like you're saying, okay, awesome, let's develop resiliency, do our best, avoid it where we can so we can still live our lives. Right. Because that's another thing with people who have chronic illness and, you know, are dealing with mold or EMF. It's like our limbic system is messed up. Right? We are stuck in this fight or flight, and when we can get stuck there and we're not living, we're not enjoying, we're always worried, understandably. Like, that limbic system is doing an awesome job for you and it's trying to protect you and it's there for a reason. But I like your philosophy of, all right, we need to take a step back. Like, do our best, build resiliency. Okay, we got an exposure, but, you know, we came home and we're fine. So that we can be aware and do our best and then enjoy ourselves and live our lives.
Dr. Jane Levesque
-:For sure. Yeah. Okay. So the, there's a couple questions I guess I have left, but regular upkeep of the house and environment to just kind of prevent the mold in the first place.
Cathy Cooke
-:I love prevention. Love it. So what do we do? Well, it's all about water, right? No water, no mold. So if we manage the water, that's how we prevent mold. So what does that mean? We monitor our humidity. So I'm always recommending that people get hygrometers or moisture meters. Not moisture meters, you know, humidity meters, so that we can make sure that we're keeping our relative humidity, ideally under 50%, 55, 50%, and then have them in different areas of the house because you don't, you know, you don't put 1 meter, let's say, in the living room, but then, you know, in your basement bathroom, the humidity might be completely different. So multiple fibrometers all over to monitor humidity. Great.
Dr. Jane Levesque
-:And is that just like an Amazon purchase?
Cathy Cooke
-:Yeah. Yep. Easy. They're inexpensive. Often they'll come in, you know, four or five in a pack. So definitely.
Dr. Jane Levesque
-:So like bathroom, basement, living room, you just want to put it in.
Cathy Cooke
-:I mean, any areas where there's plumbing is going to be, you know, living room. Great. And then plumbed areas, because often what you will find is the humidity in the living room is 45%, but this bathroom keeps staying at 70%. Like, what's going on there? Well, that could be very indicative of a water leak happening. Right. So you compare in rooms can be super helpful because that can help you identify if there is an elevation in one location. Maybe there's a water source in that location. So, yes, hygrometers, that's the first thing. Yep. Managing humidity. And then what I love are things like little water sensors. So there's various different options, but maybe they're like a little puck or, you know, just a little thing that you put in all the plumbed areas. So you put them under all the sinks behind the water heater. You know, wherever there's water, appliance, refrigerator. And then if there's a drop of water that gets near that sensor, it alarms you. It screams really, really, really loud. So, you know. Right. When it happens, instead of a drip that goes on for years and causes a major problem. Right. So those water sensors are amazing.
Dr. Jane Levesque
-:Is that also an Amazon purchase?
Cathy Cooke
-:Yep. You can get them.
Dr. Jane Levesque
-:Amazing.
Cathy Cooke
-:Let's see. And then mats. So applying smash. So, like, your water heater should be in a pan, right. There should be a big metal pan that it sits on so that if there is a drip, it goes and collects on the pan. Your sinks should have a sink mat, like a silicone sink mat under it. So if there is a drip, it goes onto the silicone mat rather than onto the particle board or whatever the, you know, the wood that it's made of. So that kind of stuff that prevention is. I mean, you know, a $5 sensor could save you a decade of health problems and thousands.
Dr. Jane Levesque
-:Yeah, thousands. Like tens of thousands.
Cathy Cooke
-:Yeah, absolutely. So that kind of stuff is great. Gosh, there's so many things, but those right there are the big ones that can really save you a lot of heartache.
Dr. Jane Levesque
-:Yeah. Essentially, prevention, we're thinking about preventing the leaks versus, like, once you already have a leak or some mold, then we're talking about the cleaning, which is the air, the vacuuming, and the microfiber cloth to kind of keep the stuff at bay. Right? Did I get that right?
Cathy Cooke
-:Yes. And to kind of connect those a little bit more. So dust is the ultimate mold food. Right. So why does mold exist? It's to decompose things, and it's one of the only things, really, that decomposes wood. So if you're hiking out in the forest, do you see logs that are fallen and they're in different states of degrading, but it takes decades for that tree to degrade. Right. And mold is helping that process. But solid wood is hardy. Like, it doesn't get moldy very easily. But when you, like, you know, mold spores don't have teeth. Right. They're using enzymes to break it down. And it takes a long time on a solid piece of wood. But if you've got a pre digested source paper, like drywall. Right. Or particle board or dust. Oh, my gosh, that's a feast for mold. So if you've got a lot of dust in your house and your humidity is high, you can grow mold just on the dust. Right. So if you're keeping. And it will live there, too. The dust. The mold will live in the dust and it feeds on it. So if you keep your house free of mold food, you're going to go a long way to keep the potential issue from happening in the first place.
Dr. Jane Levesque
-:I love that mold food. Yeah.
Cathy Cooke
-:Yeah, it's good. Yep.
Dr. Jane Levesque
-:Well, then it. I mean, and that's when I came into the Airbnb. I'm like, this place is dusty. And that's how you can see, like, water leaks or whatever. And I didn't go, but I'm like, I could just smell the dust. And therefore, I know that there is mold because of the level of the dust, you know, and the sneezing and everything that comes with that in general, tell us, how long does it take to get mold out of the body? I know that everybody is different, but, like, once you're actually remediate the house, one of the reasons I want to kind of talk about this is because I want to set realistic expectations for people. I think there is people who are genuinely going to clear it a lot faster than others. Like my husband grew up in a lot of moldy places, and I remember when we first started testing him, it's like his mold was coming through the roof. And I'm like, okay, I know we don't have exposure because I'm not testing for any of this stuff. Plus, like, you know, we didn't have mold in that house, but it was like years before his numbers really started to come down.
Cathy Cooke
-:Wow, that's a significant. Yeah. Especially with a man like we were talking about earlier. Oftentimes men aren't as symptomatic or they clear it more quickly. You know, they have more glutathione production and sometimes more robust detoxification, sometimes not. But, yeah. So I've seen it be anywhere from three months to a couple years. Right. Depends on the exposure. Depends on the person. Depends on the protocol. Right. What kind of protocol are you on? Are you only taking binders? Are you supporting liver and kidney function? Are you taking glutathione? Are you on an antifungal? What kind of binder? You know, are you taking the appropriate binder for the specific mycotoxin? Are you sweating elimination path? You know? So let's say you're on the best protocol in the world. Yeah. If you're lucky, three months. But a year and a half, two years definitely could be for some people.
Dr. Jane Levesque
-:Well, and it depends, too. Like, I don't think we live in a perfect world. Like, you might still get random exposures here and there, which can flare.
Cathy Cooke
-:Right.
Dr. Jane Levesque
-:And then, like, stress.
Cathy Cooke
-:That's a great point. So. And I think that's very important for people to consider because we so desperately want to make progress in our health, and we're doing everything and we're doing everything right. And sometimes we forget that, hey, we live in the world, and it's gonna go like this. Right? Like, hopefully, our overall trajectory is going like this, but you're gonna have dips along the way, and we might have a setback because we went on vacation and we went to Hawaii and stayed in a hotel, and it's super moldy or whatever. So, yes, that's going to happen. And knowing that and being prepared for that is super important so that we don't get discouraged and, you know, having an arsenal, like, I'm exposing myself every day. Right. My mycotoxin levels aren't awesome, but I'm doing all of the things that we just talked about. Right. So I can keep my, I can.
Dr. Jane Levesque
-:Do my best to keep supporting drainage and mitochondria.
Cathy Cooke
-:Yeah. I mean, that is just, I just have had to accept that's the risk of doing this. And, you know, people need my help, so I'm gonna do it. But the rest of us, hopefully, are not exposing ourselves every day, but we will have exposure. I mean, I can name places all over the country that are moldy. You know, I go to the Denver airport, and I get off at Terminal B, and I'm like, oh, there's the, the FedEx downtown. Like, all these places where I know there's. So you're going to get exposed. Churches, schools, hospitals. You know, we're going to get exposed. But, yeah. So our overall trajectory, hopefully, is going up, but we will have valleys in there.
Dr. Jane Levesque
-:Yeah, for sure. And I think you kind of brought this as a myth buster. About mold? Because I've heard, wow, I live in Vegas. Like, I don't have mold or I live in Arizona or. What do you have to say to that comment?
Cathy Cooke
-:People tell me that all the time. And I. Yeah, like, if I'm in.
Dr. Jane Levesque
-:Seattle, if I'm in Washington, like the west coast or east coast or even Hawaii, whatever, it's like, there is moisture.
Cathy Cooke
-:Yeah. And it's true that those areas are going to have higher incidences of mold. More homes. Seattle are going to have mold issues than homes in Boise. Well, or Denver or Arizona. So, you know, I live in Boise. It's extremely dry here. The humidity right now is probably, like 25% very, very dry. But, you know, I do anywhere from three to five inspections a week, and I find mold almost every time. So it's not because we live in a dry climate, it's the fact that, you know, it's really absurd to think about, we're going to build homes and say, let's put plumbing through the walls. Right. Like, it's normal. So it's common. So we just think that's the way it is. But we are doing an obscene thing to try to tell nature not to, you know, do what nature does. Like, we're not supposed to live in walls and keep nature out, which includes water. Right. So we're living in a very unnatural way. And so water leaks are going to happen. Humidity is going to happen. We have windows. Like, it's just the way we live. And we wrap our buildings really tight for energy efficiency, and then that can create its own set of problems. So plumbing is not perfect. In fact, the insurance industry expects there to be a water event in a given house once at least every 25 years. So if you live in a hundred year old house, you've probably had four water events at least. I think that number is much higher because those are only the claims. Right. And a lot of times people don't make a claim. So it's just the way that we live and, you know, we breathe inside our house, we cook, we shower. Like, it's crazy to think about, I'm in this room, and I'm just gonna turn on this faucet for ten minutes and have all this water in my house. Right. So it's the way we live and behave in our houses and run water through our walls that create these problems most of the time, yeah.
Dr. Jane Levesque
-:And so do you do any consultation for building houses? Is there, like, a better way to build houses?
Cathy Cooke
-:Yes, absolutely. Back to the prevention. I love it. So choosing the proper building materials. You know, we don't need drywall with paper on it. There's other options so that we eliminate another set of mold food. There are different ways to waterproof the bathroom. There's ways to waterproof the foundation. There's, you know, we want our building on a little bit of an elevation. So we have sloping away. We want big overhangs. Right. There's so many things that we can do to prevent mold inside the home. And definitely, if somebody is building new, I strongly recommend working with somebody like myself, a building biologist or other consultant, that can help you make these choices so that you can drastically reduce your chances of having a mold event in the house.
Dr. Jane Levesque
-:Yeah, yeah. And then usually, like, my EMF assessment guy, he comes in and helps people build because it's all the wiring is happening at the building level. And so then by the time you live, it's like the chances of you getting a shock, chances of having a fire started, all those things, and then obviously, like, the health implications that you have. So it's like, if you can get that from the get go, then you're not gonna have to deal with those things down the road.
Cathy Cooke
-:Absolutely. Yep.
Dr. Jane Levesque
-:Amazing. Cathy, thank you so much. Tell us about where we can find you and this course that's coming out. When is it coming out? And kind of, what can people learn from it?
Cathy Cooke
-:Yeah, so my website is whole home and body health, so you can find me there. I've got an Instagram channel, I've got videos on YouTube that are just me going around testing stuff. I'm in addicts. And, you know, all these just quick tips about air quality.
Dr. Jane Levesque
-:I love it.
Cathy Cooke
-:So I am coming out with a course this fall. Fall. It's called taming the toxins. So it's a six week course that basically goes through the toxins in your life. Right, from body care products to food, to cooking, to EMF, to mold water. So I take you through each module once a week to identify, okay, what are we bringing into our houses? What toxins am I exposing? Myself? Most importantly, what are the easy ways that I can reduce those toxins? Right. Can I choose glass containers over plastic? You know, stuff like that? The whole EMF piece. So, yeah, that's going to be coming out in the fall. I'm really excited about it because this whole field can be extremely overwhelming. And so my goal is to say, all right, let's tame it down. Let's figure out, you know, what are you being exposed to and what are the simple solutions we can do to reduce our overall toxins so we can reduce, you know, our bucket is a little less full so that we have more resilience and less symptoms.
Dr. Jane Levesque
-:Yeah, I love it. Thank you. Kathy. Anything you want to add? Like, last minute thoughts before we part ways? Anything we didn't talk about?
Cathy Cooke
-:Just, you know, I think it's important to just say again to the piece of overwhelm. You know, we're talking about this stuff, and I know people can get so overwhelmed, and I don't want anyone to feel like, oh, my God, everything's killing me. Right. So knowledge is good. And sometimes as you begin to get the knowledge, it becomes very overwhelming. Like, I can't do all of these things. We don't need to be there. You know, we're just gonna focus on, let's hit the lowest hanging fruit right now, and we're gonna make small choices as we go on, and each little bit is gonna add up over time, and so it's entirely achievable. So I don't want anyone to stress out. Just, we're just gonna do our best day by day and continue to make those small choices as we can.
Dr. Jane Levesque
-:Yeah, I love it. I always tell my clients that, like, time compounds good behaviors, just like, time compounds drift. So if you're drifting, you're not really taking action. You're not aware of what's going on. And then one day you just end up in some level of crisis, whether it's with your health, with your wealth, or with your family, because you just didn't know what was happening. When you step on the green line, I call it, and you start to take specific actions and behaviors, it does feel overwhelming. And a lot of the times, the payoff is not very quick. Like we just talked about, you're going to have to change your lifestyle or you're going to have to remediate. And it's not going to be next week or next month that your health, like you said, you suffered with your health for, what, decades before you were able to. Yeah. To find answers. And it's like, just to put that in perspective now, I know I have a lot of clients with infertility. It doesn't mean you're going to struggle with infertility for decades, but know that the behaviors and the actions, like, you just have to give your body time to actually compound all of the good behaviors that you have been doing. And I always preach, like, I'll share stories like this all the time. Like, yeah, we go. And sometimes it's a crappy Airbnb. Like, did I plan that. No, it was. I gave a bad review because it wasn't as pictured, but we still had a good time and we were fine for five days. My, you know, all of us were. Did we get not as good sleep? Sure. Did we get terribly sick and went? No. You know, you're fine. Your body can balance mold and bounce all these things, but if it can't, it's usually because it's too overloaded. That bucket is full, so we gotta empty it.
Cathy Cooke
-:Yeah.
Dr. Jane Levesque
-:So thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate your knowledge and your wisdom, and I'm excited to share your course and your website with people. I think anybody who is in the Boise area would definitely benefit from contacting you. But even helping people around North America, just finding the right practitioners or the right consultants to get that mold assessed and out of their house.
Cathy Cooke
-:Yeah, absolutely. Well, I appreciate you taking the time to educate your audience about this, and as you know, everything we talked about is a major piece of the fertility issue. So I'm so encouraged by practitioners like yourself that are helping to get this information out there and considering all of the environmental pieces, which is, you know, so important.
Dr. Jane Levesque
-:So totally, 100% thank you.
Cathy Cooke
-:Yeah, thank you.
Dr. Jane Levesque
-:Thank you so much for listening. To read the full show notes of this episode, including summary, timestamps, guest quotes, and any resources that were mentioned on the episode. Visit drjanelevesque.com podcast and if you're getting value from these episodes, I'd love it if you took two minutes to share it with a friend. Rate and leave me a review@ratethispodcast.com. doctorJane the reviews will help with the discoverability of the show, and who knows, I might share your review on my next episode. Thank you so much for tuning in, and let's make your fertility journey your healing journey.
