Artwork for podcast Back to the Frame Rate
Sweeney Todd: The Demon Barber of Fleet Street (2007) / Gothic Horror #1
Episode 86 • 14th October 2024 • Back to the Frame Rate • Nathan Suher
00:00:00 01:54:10

Share Episode

Shownotes

Get ready as Sam and Nathan dive headfirst into our brand-new retrospective series, Gothic Horror! We're kicking things off with Tim Burton’s 2007 dark musical masterpiece, 'Sweeney Todd: The Demon Barber of Fleet Street.' We’re breaking down this gothic tale, talking about Johnny Depp and Helena Bonham Carter's intense performances, and unpacking the film’s haunting visual style. We also wrestle with its themes of revenge and ask the big question: Is it worthy of our cinematic vault, or should it be cast aside?

And that’s not all—we’re capping things off with a Top Five countdown where we imagine Johnny Depp in roles he *should’ve* been cast in! It’s a fun, lively mix of film critique and what-if scenarios. Tune in for some spirited conversation!

Takeaways:

  • The podcast explores the themes of Sweeney Todd, focusing on revenge and madness, questioning the protagonist's motivations.
  • Nathan and Sam discuss how the music in Sweeney Todd is complex yet challenging, lacking catchy sing-along moments.
  • The episode contrasts the reception of the new Joker sequel with the expectations set by its predecessor.
  • Coppola's Megalopolis is analyzed for its ambition and artistic merits, despite poor box office performance.
  • The hosts reflect on the darker elements of Sweeney Todd, noting its unique gothic horror aesthetic.
  • Listeners are encouraged to engage with the podcast by sharing their thoughts on films discussed.

RSVP for the 100th Episode Extravaganza on January 10th, 2025 (6pm-10pm). This is a Free Event but space is very limited.

Chapters:

  • 02:11 - Hollywood's Latest Flops
  • 07:08 - October Retrospective Begins: Sweeney Todd
  • 20:16 - Nathan's review
  • 24:17 - Sam's review
  • 01:08:38 - Verdict: Saved or Purged?
  • 01:16:22 - Top Five Countdown - Johnny Depp Films He Should Have Been In
  • 01:39:17 - Megalopolis: A Modern Art Film?
  • 01:48:13 - Weekly Highlight - (Nathan) 'The Substance'
  • 01:53:42 - Outro and Preview of Next Episode

Take our Poll - Help shape the future of our Podcast!

Sign up for new online newsletter, Frame Rate Monthly. Email backtotheframerate@gmail.com to subscribe.

Find all our episodes here on your preferred Podcast app:

https://backtotheframerate.com

Back to the Frame Rate is on Letterboxd: https://letterboxd.com/backframerate/

Be sure to Follow us @backtotheframerate

https://www.facebook.com/backtotheframerate

https://www.instagram.com/backtotheframerate/

https://twitter.com/backframerate

https://www.tiktok.com/@backtotheframerate

Email us at backtotheframerate@gamil.com

Follow Back to the Frame Rate on Letterboxd: https://letterboxd.com/Backframerate/

Follow Nathan on Letterboxd: https://letterboxd.com/nathansuher/

Follow Bee on Letterboxd: https://letterboxd.com/mambobumbles/

Copyright © Weston Media Center, Inc.

Transcripts

Narrator:

In the dying embers of human existence.

Narrator:

As the asteroid, a behemoth the sides of Texas, hurdles relentlessly toward earth, the world braces for an apocalyptic end.

Narrator:

Deep beneath the bunker, a refuge plunges into the bowels of the earth.

Narrator:

Here, the chosen gather their purpose clear to preserve the very soul of our civilization.

Narrator:

The 35 and 70 millimeter prints that encapsulate the magic motion and the dreams of generations past.

Narrator:

These masterpieces, each frame a testament to the human spirit, are carefully catalogued and cradled in the cavernous confines of the bunker.

Narrator:

Perhaps there was room for more, for friends and family yearning for salvation, but sacrifices must be made.

Narrator:

The movie nerds stand united, the keepers of a flame, promising a future where the art of storytelling endures, transcending the boundaries of time and space.

Narrator:

God help us all.

Nathan Shure:

Welcome to back to the framerate, part of the Westin Media podcast network.

Nathan Shure:

Join us as we watch and discuss films on vod and streaming platforms, deliberating on whether each one is worthy of salvation or destined for destruction in the face of the impending asteroid apocalypse.

Nathan Shure:

You can find more episodes of this podcast on backtotheframerate.com, where you can subscribe and share our show and find us on our socials with our handleback ac to the framerate.

Nathan Shure:

I am Nathan Shure, and accompanying me is the extraordinary movie maven, Sam Cole.

Nathan Shure:

Welcome, Sam.

Nathan Shure:

Woohoo.

Narrator:

Welcome.

Narrator:

It is always great to be here in the world of back to the frame rate as we continue our cinematic journey.

Nathan Shure:

It is indeed, by the way, just.

Narrator:

Quick topical comment because we're in the spooky season and I could wait to mention this later, but Joker folly, Ado man, that is not doing well.

Narrator:

And I didn't really follow any buzz or anything like that.

Narrator:

I was a little bit surprised, but like, I am, I feel like a kind of shallow, casual movie goer saying this, but every, the buzz is so negative that I'm kind of, I might just wait for streaming.

Narrator:

Like, I was kind of interested.

Narrator:

And after reading about, I'm like, oh, man.

Narrator:

Like, I was surprised.

Narrator:

I thought it was like, guaranteed big opening weekend and like, I just, I did not see that one coming at all.

Nathan Shure:

It is the first superhero movie to get a d cinema score.

Nathan Shure:

Now that's something that not even Morbius got.

Narrator:

Oh my God.

Nathan Shure:

So it's interesting because this is coming.

Nathan Shure:

It's a sequel to Joker, which was did have its haters was a divisive film, but also, this is a movie that made over 200 million domestically.

Nathan Shure:

Joaquin Phoenix won best actor right for this movie.

Nathan Shure:

This is a highly movie for the most part on.

Nathan Shure:

And that movie had a $60 million budget, maybe $65 million budget, highly profitable.

Nathan Shure:

And the movie did the carnal sin.

Nathan Shure:

We're going to make a sequel of over three times the budget.

Nathan Shure:

We're going to make it a musical.

Nathan Shure:

I mean, on paper, I think we've all been looking at this all year long.

Nathan Shure:

Like, this doesn't really make sense.

Nathan Shure:

And I'll tell you, when I saw those trailers, I was not like, I got to go see this.

Nathan Shure:

So I'm not, I'm not surprised.

Nathan Shure:

It's getting some negative reviews and negativity around it.

Nathan Shure:

I'm shocked at how bad, I mean, 37 million, I think was the final number over the past weekend.

Narrator:

Yeah, that is, it was just rough because, I mean, I was not like, oh, I gotta see this.

Narrator:

And I try to, you know, I'll give us a movie, a benefit of doubt and just see it with my own opinion.

Narrator:

But still, I was not expecting it to be received that bad.

Narrator:

And not only is it a musical, but they, they say it's kind of like a quote unquote half assed musical where like they sing a little bit, but the songs is kind of, I mean, I don't, I can't review it because I haven't seen it.

Narrator:

But I just was like, that was a shocker to me because I thought that was like one of those bulletproof movies that was guaranteed to at least open big and not even that happened.

Narrator:

So.

Narrator:

Doesn't look good for Joker Fallet.

Nathan Shure:

No, it doesn't.

Nathan Shure:

And I, it's interesting with the timing of it.

Nathan Shure:

As you know, we have, the new regime has stepped in to take over the comic book universe and this is not part of that regime, as you know, and anybody listen, this is not part of that.

Nathan Shure:

Superman comes out next summer, the new Superman movie, which is the launch of that.

Nathan Shure:

This was basically the studio saying, todd Phillips, just do your thing and I, and be done with it so that we can turn the page.

Nathan Shure:

Because when a movie makes as much money as it did with Joker, there was so much pressure on Todd Phillips and Joaquin Phoenix to like, you gotta do it again.

Nathan Shure:

But this never really seemed to make sense why they were doing this.

Nathan Shure:

Cause I think Joker, I was a fan of Joker, but I just did never found a reason why there had to be a sequel to it.

Narrator:

But anyways, yeah, I was a fan too.

Narrator:

It felt like a one, er, like a really interesting one.

Narrator:

But like, you know.

Nathan Shure:

Huh.

Nathan Shure:

Yeah.

Nathan Shure:

Well, it is what it is.

Nathan Shure:

And you compare it to another movie that came out just two weeks before that, Megalopolis from Francis Ford Cobalt, which costs about the same amount of money that would have made $4 million and I think also had a similar cinema score.

Nathan Shure:

But I would say that this Joker sequel is a much more devastating flop because that is a.

Nathan Shure:

A huge, like, franchise type of film.

Nathan Shure:

And all of megalopolis money is one person, and there aren't the same ramifications to that.

Nathan Shure:

Nobody expected megalopolis to make money.

Narrator:

Oh, for sure.

Narrator:

My visual metaphor of like a movie launching is like a person jumping off a high diving board like an Olympic diver.

Narrator:

And if you're speaking just about box office, these two movies speed.

Narrator:

It's like the person fell off the front of the board, was like, whoa.

Narrator:

And just belly flopped in the.

Nathan Shure:

There's nearly $400 million spent between both these movies.

Narrator:

Oh, my God.

Nathan Shure:

We could feed many, many countries.

Narrator:

We could fix every single road in Rhode Island, Rhode Island's infrastructure.

Narrator:

It'd be perfect, you know, like.

Nathan Shure:

Well, Sam, we are turning a page and we are onto a new retrospective.

Nathan Shure:

As you mentioned, we are in the spooky season.

Nathan Shure:

This is really exciting.

Nathan Shure:

Last year we did a franchise for October that was the exorcist franchise.

Nathan Shure:

This year we decided to do something a little different.

Nathan Shure:

We're not doing a franchise.

Nathan Shure:

We are doing a genre, a theme, and where it is gothic horror, which is pretty cool.

Nathan Shure:

We're starting off with Tim Burton's Sweeney Todd, the demon Barber of Fleet street, which is a film that I've never seen before.

Nathan Shure:

You were saying that you've seen this several times, so this is a should be interesting conversation.

Nathan Shure:

My first time watching this.

Nathan Shure:

You're revisiting this.

Nathan Shure:

I'm looking forward to this conversation.

Nathan Shure:

But I do have a plot synopsis that I will read here and a trailer that will follow that.

Nathan Shure:

So here it is.

Nathan Shure:

from wrongful imprisonment in:

Nathan Shure:

This is the tale of an ordinary man who had everything.

Narrator:

Barker.

Narrator:

His name was Benjamin Barker.

Nathan Shure:

Until a man of power stole his freedom, destroyed his family and banished him.

Narrator:

May the Lord have mercy on your.

Nathan Shure:

Soul for life and in his sorrow a new Mandez was born.

Narrator:

15 years dreaming I might come home to a wife and child.

Nathan Shure:

Benjamin Barker.

Narrator:

Not Barker.

Narrator:

Sweeney Dart now and he will have his revenge as my wife.

Narrator:

She's gone and he's got your daughter.

Narrator:

Judge Duban, you got lazy so bad.

Narrator:

No, these are desperate times.

Narrator:

Desperate measures are called for.

Nathan Shure:

Well, they have part of the trailer for Sweeney Todd.

Nathan Shure:

,:

Nathan Shure:

I missed this one when it came out.

Narrator:

It's so funny because I vividly remember seeing it in the theater.

Narrator:

And the reason was I was very, very late doing Christmas shopping.

Narrator:

And I was, like, at.

Narrator:

In Providence place mall at the last minute.

Narrator:

Like, oh.

Narrator:

And, like, I got all my Christmas shopping done and I was exhausted, but I didn't want to go home.

Narrator:

So I saw Sweeney Todd.

Narrator:

I think it was opening day just because.

Narrator:

Just because I happened to be there, because I'd procrastinated.

Narrator:

Left all my shopping to the last minute.

Nathan Shure:

I don't know why I didn't go see this.

Nathan Shure:

I think I had such a bad taste in my mouth after his Willy Wonka or Charlie and the chocolate factory, which I did not like because I am a huge fan of the original Gene Wilder version that I just was like, I am done with Tim Burton right now.

Nathan Shure:

So I was not.

Nathan Shure:

I was not a fan of that.

Nathan Shure:

And this just did not.

Nathan Shure:

I did not run out to see this or I never followed up to see it on home video or on Vod ever since.

Nathan Shure:

But here we are, finally caught up with it.

Nathan Shure:

,:

Nathan Shure:

This was.

Nathan Shure:

This was a jam packed year also.

Nathan Shure:

I remember as well, trying to catch up with movies.

Nathan Shure:

So I think the following spring, when I could have seen it, I was probably catching up with, you know, there will be blood and atonement and all these other things that came out in the end.

Narrator:

There was a big holiday season that atonement, there will be blood.

Narrator:

Like, there was chock full of movies.

Nathan Shure:

So, Sam, do you.

Nathan Shure:

Do you have a couple of favorite movie facts you wanna.

Narrator:

Yeah.

Narrator:

Some really interesting stuff about this movie.

Narrator:

When they gotten the production together, I had no idea that Tim Burton replaced Sam Mendes, actually, as the director.

Narrator:

And I don't know the reason, but Tim Burton had actually been interested in.

Narrator:

He saw this, I think he saw a play version, I think, in the early eighties.

Narrator:

And so Tim Burton had been interested in this for a while, which I thought was interesting, because not knowing that before, I thought he was kind of just like a hired gun.

Narrator:

Like, hey, we'll get Tim Burton in his wacky darkness for this.

Narrator:

You know, but he'd been interested in it.

Narrator:

So it was cool that he did that.

Narrator:

That was just fascinating because, like, Sam Mendes and his energy, I mean, I can't.

Narrator:

I can sort of imagine what that would have been like.

Narrator:

But two very different directors.

Narrator:

Another cool thing is, I did not know this, this guy's name, but I've seen a lot of his work.

Narrator:

The cinematographer is a man named Darius.

Narrator:

Darius or Darius Wolsky.

Narrator:

And he was, like you said, he's worked.

Narrator:

He was the DP on the crow in dark City with Alex Proyas.

Narrator:

He did a Tony Scott movie, Crimson Tide, which I love.

Nathan Shure:

He did a lot of.

Nathan Shure:

Oh, Tony Scott.

Nathan Shure:

Yes.

Narrator:

Yeah.

Narrator:

And he did a perfect murder Michael Douglas 98 movie that I enjoyed.

Narrator:

But I remember really liking the way it looked.

Narrator:

The cinematography was rich.

Narrator:

They did it, you know, Gore Verbinski pirates, the Caribbean, curse of the Black Pearl.

Narrator:

So this guy is a prolific cinematographer, and I've seen a lot of his work.

Narrator:

I did not know his name before, so that was something new that I learned.

Nathan Shure:

And then he followed up recently with a lot of Ridley Scott collaborations.

Nathan Shure:

Prometheus, martian.

Nathan Shure:

I see Napoleon was just a year ago.

Nathan Shure:

So this.

Nathan Shure:

This guy is.

Nathan Shure:

He's done a lot.

Nathan Shure:

Yeah.

Nathan Shure:

And I admit I didn't even know his name either.

Nathan Shure:

But, like, I look back to his early career, like, the crow in Dark City is, like, maybe my favorite one two punch.

Nathan Shure:

Not my favorite, but one of my favorite one two punches from a director, maybe DP collaborator, maybe ever in my top five.

Narrator:

Oh, yeah.

Narrator:

I mean, absolutely.

Narrator:

I just.

Narrator:

He just.

Narrator:

He's just done such, like, rich visual work.

Narrator:

And just regarding Sweeney Todd was really well received.

Narrator:

I mean, Roger Ebert gave it four out of four, I think, 86 on Rotten Tomatoes.

Narrator:

A lot of people say it's one of the better musicals of the 21st century, which, you know, the century is, like, incredibly short, so far of note, but.

Narrator:

But I love the cast in it.

Narrator:

I wanted to give a shout out to Timothy Spall as the Beatle, Alan Rickman's henchmen.

Narrator:

Just a creepy baddie.

Narrator:

Bad, bad guy.

Nathan Shure:

I think I mentioned.

Nathan Shure:

Mention the cast here for a moment, because Timothy Spall, you have Alan Rickman and Elena Bonham Carter.

Nathan Shure:

We have a backdoor Harry Potter reunion in this movie.

Narrator:

Yes, it is.

Narrator:

And, like, I noticed that it's almost like, I feel like Tim Burton, like, borrowed them all from the set of Harry Potter.

Narrator:

And, like.

Narrator:

And I love Alan Rickman.

Narrator:

I notice sometimes his voice, like, almost goes into snape territory a little bit, and it's like.

Narrator:

It's like you're a different character, you know?

Narrator:

But, yeah, no, and it did.

Narrator:

I mean, it did.

Narrator:

You know, it was.

Narrator:

Had, like, a 50 million budget and box office worldwide, not in the US, was 150.

Narrator:

So, I mean, solid.

Narrator:

Not like a huge, huge hit, but overall, pretty good.

Narrator:

And I think if you're making triple.

Nathan Shure:

Your budget, your success.

Nathan Shure:

Absolutely.

Narrator:

Yeah.

Narrator:

Absolutely.

Narrator:

Yeah.

Narrator:

I never, I never, the, the costs that I are always elusive to me are marketing costs.

Narrator:

Those are things I never quite know if it's, if that's public or not.

Narrator:

But, like, I will say, of note that Steven Sondheim himself, who was largely skeptical of it being turned into a movie, apparently he was largely impressed by the results and liked the Tim Burton adaptation.

Narrator:

So I was glad to hear that, that he felt that it was, you.

Nathan Shure:

Know, so you mentioned obviously, this based on a stage, you know, the stage musical with music and lyrics from Stephen Sondheim.

Nathan Shure:

And I didn't know this until I did a little bit of research, but I don't know if you knew this, Sam.

Nathan Shure:

This is also from that.

Nathan Shure:

think, like early seventies,:

Nathan Shure:

I don't really know much about him.

Nathan Shure:

So this is a movie based on a stage musical based on a play.

Nathan Shure:

of Sweeney Todd date back to:

Nathan Shure:

Now, if any listeners out there aren't familiar, Penny Dreadful were the comic books of the 19th century.

Nathan Shure:

They were cheap serialized short stories.

Nathan Shure:

So this is something I just learned myself.

Nathan Shure:

I'm not trying to, you know, lord over anybody here, but that's, I just found this out.

Narrator:

That's amazing.

Narrator:

I knew there was a musical, but I didn't know the musical was an adaptation of a play which was inspired by something else.

Narrator:

I thought the musical was the be all and end all stars.

Narrator:

That's fascinating.

Nathan Shure:

Well, I think that the music was written in the late seventies for the Broadway musical.

Nathan Shure:

So by the way, we're going to get into our thoughts on this soon.

Nathan Shure:

But I, I was kind of a completist after I watched this movie.

Nathan Shure:

I'll get into my thoughts in the music soon.

Nathan Shure:

But I did go back.

Nathan Shure:

I listened to this again because on Spotify, but I also went back and I listened to the stage musical, the Broadway stage musical with Angela Lansbury and this other cast.

Nathan Shure:

But it's really fascinating to compare both of these.

Nathan Shure:

Did Angela Lansbury play Helena Bonham Carter, Nelly Lovetta character?

Nathan Shure:

Very different.

Nathan Shure:

But you can see how Bonham Carter definitely modeled her character after many of Angela Lansbury's characteristics in that.

Nathan Shure:

But I would, you know, there is, if you really want to go searching on YouTube, you can find that late seventies, early eighties filmed stage musical on YouTube.

Nathan Shure:

It's very poor quality, but you can see what they did with that original Broadway musical.

Nathan Shure:

It is.

Nathan Shure:

There is a video.

Nathan Shure:

Love it.

Nathan Shure:

I just wish the quality was better, but it's out.

Nathan Shure:

I would love to.

Nathan Shure:

I only glassed it about ten minutes before.

Nathan Shure:

It was like.

Nathan Shure:

This is just like.

Nathan Shure:

Actually, it doesn't look like film.

Nathan Shure:

It looks like someone took, like, the earliest version of a video camera to film it.

Narrator:

Oh, God.

Narrator:

Yeah.

Narrator:

It's like someone sitting in the audience, like, pointing it at the stage.

Narrator:

Yeah.

Nathan Shure:

or:

Nathan Shure:

Yeah.

Narrator:

Oh, wow.

Narrator:

Interesting, huh?

Nathan Shure:

So a couple.

Nathan Shure:

So obviously, Johnny Depp is the star of this.

Nathan Shure:

We have Sasha Baron cohen in this.

Nathan Shure:

I didn't know he was in this as Adolfo Pirelli.

Nathan Shure:

Now, this is post Talladega nights in Borat.

Nathan Shure:

So his star is really rising at this point.

Narrator:

Very, very big at this time.

Nathan Shure:

Jamie Campbell Bauer plays Anthony.

Nathan Shure:

Laura Michelle Kelly plays Lucy Barker or the beggar woman.

Nathan Shure:

Don't go on Wikipedia before you watch a movie.

Nathan Shure:

It'll spoil things for you.

Narrator:

Oh, God.

Narrator:

Oh, man.

Narrator:

I feel your pain there.

Narrator:

I know what you're talking about.

Nathan Shure:

Shane Wisener plays Joanna Barker, and Ed Sanders plays Toby, the young boy in this.

Nathan Shure:

So I just want to mention one other thing, because I do like to look at this.

Nathan Shure:

,:

Nathan Shure:

Play a little game here.

Nathan Shure:

What do you.

Nathan Shure:

I'll give you one guess, Sam, you're good at this stuff.

Narrator:

What do you think?

Nathan Shure:

The number one movie at the box office, Washington, this weekend.

Narrator:

I'm guessing I am legend with Wilson.

Nathan Shure:

Oh, you're so close.

Nathan Shure:

That's number two.

Nathan Shure:

Number one is.

Narrator:

Wait.

Narrator:

National treasure Book of Secrets.

Nathan Shure:

Bingo.

Nathan Shure:

Bingo.

Narrator:

Numbers, numbers.

Nathan Shure:

And that made 44.7 million.

Nathan Shure:

Iron legend made 33.5.

Nathan Shure:

Number three was Alvin and the Chipmunks made 28.1 million.

Nathan Shure:

Number four.

Nathan Shure:

And I think I saw this this weekend, opening weekend, because it also opened the same day, was Charlie Wilson's war.

Narrator:

Oh, yeah.

Nathan Shure:

And Sweeney Todd opened at number five with 9.3.

Narrator:

Interesting.

Nathan Shure:

So, yeah.

Nathan Shure:

All right, I think we're going to get to our thoughts on this film.

Nathan Shure:

You know, we didn't choose, like, we do it normally ahead of time.

Nathan Shure:

Who's going to go first?

Nathan Shure:

What do you want to do?

Nathan Shure:

Do you want a rock, paper, scissor, this?

Nathan Shure:

Do you want to.

Nathan Shure:

What do you want to do?

Narrator:

What?

Narrator:

Do you have a coin?

Narrator:

You want to just flip it and then you can.

Narrator:

We can hear the sound effect of it hitting the table to add, no.

Nathan Shure:

Sam, I don't have a coin.

Narrator:

You know what I thought?

Nathan Shure:

Here we go.

Nathan Shure:

We're going to do rock, paper, scissors on our video.

Nathan Shure:

All right, great, great podcast.

Nathan Shure:

You ready?

Nathan Shure:

Rock, paper, scissors.

Nathan Shure:

You're delayed.

Nathan Shure:

All right, I'm paper beats rock.

Nathan Shure:

I'm going first.

Nathan Shure:

Wow.

Nathan Shure:

For all you podcast listeners, we apologize.

Nathan Shure:

All right, I give you my very brief thoughts on this because I just want to get into our discussion.

Nathan Shure:

So this is a dark, gothic musical that I really do believe showcases Burton's style while pushing into what I discovered to be an unexpected, violent movie.

Nathan Shure:

I didn't know what I was getting into here.

Nathan Shure:

Like I said, my first time watching this, I was shocked by the violence and gore in this, and I had to stop it and look online and realize that this is an r rated movie.

Nathan Shure:

I had no idea.

Nathan Shure:

I so used to Tim Burton working in that pg 13 violence, and I was so.

Nathan Shure:

I was kind of taken back a little bit.

Nathan Shure:

Not taken back, but I was just like, whoa, we're going there.

Nathan Shure:

Well, I thought Depp and Helena Bon Carter were perfectly cast in this and deliver really great performances and even doing pretty well singing, which neither of them are known for.

Nathan Shure:

I know Depp has his own rock band.

Nathan Shure:

I don't know if he sings in that.

Nathan Shure:

And he.

Nathan Shure:

So he's got that side career and he's not.

Nathan Shure:

Was that Hollywood vampires is like where he's got all of actors and musicians that are from, you know, in the Hollywood scene and scene all play together anyways and some other side projects, but nothing that demands this type of thing.

Nathan Shure:

The music composed by, you know, legendary Steven Sondheim is undeniably well crafted, but I found it challenging, I guess, is the best way of putting it.

Nathan Shure:

And not as catchy as many other Broadway musicals that have seeped into our culture.

Nathan Shure:

And I'll get more on that later.

Nathan Shure:

But visually, this film is just a feast for the eyes.

Nathan Shure:

The elaborate theatrical costuming and muted color palette, I think perfectly captured, like this morbid, decaying atmosphere of the story.

Nathan Shure:

It was really delightful seeing Ellen Rickman in this.

Nathan Shure:

And like I said, we get that Harry Potter reunion, but there's a lot I really appreciate about this film but staring me dead in the face, you know, after I set aside the music, the production design, and the great, you know, staginess in theatrics and all the Tim Burton touches that make this movie so dazzling to gawk at.

Nathan Shure:

And that is the core story, which makes absolutely zero sense at all.

Nathan Shure:

And I mean, no sense at all.

Nathan Shure:

And I hope you and I are going to talk about this a lot more because in regards to what Sweeney Todd's revenge plan is, I have a huge problem with it because I'm really of two minds with this film, whether I love this because it's so beautiful to look at, but when I think about what the story is, it's absolutely makes no sense at all.

Nathan Shure:

And I'm having a hard time leaping over that hurdle because it's grinding at me to the point where I'm angry at it.

Nathan Shure:

It's hard to give this movie a rating.

Nathan Shure:

I've been between three and three and a half.

Nathan Shure:

I've almost was at a four one time because it's so good in many ways, but it almost wants me to bring it back down to a three because of that.

Nathan Shure:

But I'm at a three and a half right in the middle of those because I could still change it.

Nathan Shure:

But that's where I'm at right now.

Nathan Shure:

But I can't wait to talk about what my real issues are with this film, with you, Sam, and maybe you can help me understand.

Nathan Shure:

But that's where I'm at.

Narrator:

No, fascinating.

Narrator:

So, yeah, so I walked into this movie just blind.

Narrator:

I mean, it looked kind of interesting.

Narrator:

Interestingly enough, the producers downplayed the musical element and the marketing and that got in a little trouble because people like, they go in to see the theater and like they start singing right away.

Narrator:

And some people in the audience are like, what?

Narrator:

So here's the thing for, for me, I.

Narrator:

So though musicals are not like my first, like go to genre, there's some of them that I love.

Narrator:

The movie Chicago with Richard Gere and Renee Zellweger.

Narrator:

I just think that's like a masterpiece.

Narrator:

hink they got best picture in:

Narrator:

And again, seeing it blindly when I went into this movie, Steven Sondheim's music and the interesting kind of minor key and the tonality and stuff like that, I loved the music in this film.

Narrator:

After I saw it in the theater, I went and I bought the soundtrack.

Narrator:

This is back when you would like buy a cd and stuff.

Narrator:

I played it over and over in my car.

Narrator:

My dad did as well.

Narrator:

I just obsessed with the music.

Narrator:

And so the music to me was like a huge selling point because I just found myself loving it.

Narrator:

I think if I were to give a general review, what I like about the movie is it's operatic and we can get more into the story later when we discuss it.

Narrator:

But I love how this is almost like a greek tragedy opera where every character is an archetype, and you don't really go into depth of characters.

Narrator:

So it's like, alan Rickmande is a bad guy who's evil.

Narrator:

Why?

Narrator:

Because he's a bad guy, you know?

Narrator:

Yeah.

Nathan Shure:

Like, and I wanted more, but yes.

Narrator:

And so, and so, though, I can definitely understand.

Narrator:

For me, I just thought it worked, like, in this very archetypal kind of way.

Narrator:

And so I just.

Narrator:

The, the dark tragedy of this movie, I love how, like, quote, unquote, deliciously dark this movie is, because it's so dark.

Narrator:

And you talk about the graphic violence and gore.

Narrator:

It's not even stylized.

Narrator:

It's just like, brutal throat cutting and murders and, like, realistic blood.

Narrator:

And I love the glorious darkness.

Narrator:

For me, I just, what I.

Narrator:

The reason why it works so well for me is I see it as this archetypal thing where here's, where here's a guy who used to be good, and he's so overcome by grief and darkness that he becomes the very thing that he was.

Narrator:

Like.

Narrator:

He becomes even worse than Alan Rickman.

Narrator:

He becomes the demon barber of Fleet street and becomes into, like, the darkest darkness.

Narrator:

So, I mean, I personally, I love this movie.

Narrator:

For me, it's.

Narrator:

I would put it in my top, like, five Tim Burton movies.

Narrator:

Oddly enough, my criticism is, is, and I had the same reaction.

Narrator:

I hadn't seen it in several years.

Narrator:

I had the same reaction watching it again when I saw it the first time, is, I think, for the most part, I think Tim Burton's camera work and editing is pretty good there.

Narrator:

I think my one criticism of the film would be, I sometimes wish that Tim Burton's camera work was a little bit more proactive in helping make story moments stronger.

Narrator:

I felt there were some times where he would sort of take a backseat to the music and just kind of film, like a two shot and a close up.

Narrator:

And I thought it was pretty good.

Narrator:

An example of that would be when Sacha Baron Cohen, when the kid is like, when they're selling that fake rehair growth elixir.

Nathan Shure:

I love that scene.

Narrator:

I love that scene.

Narrator:

And I felt like that was an example where, like, the camera could have, like, you know, spun around them more or been a little bit more proactive.

Narrator:

And when I mean proactive, I'm not talking, like, baz Luhrmann, like, flying around like crazy.

Narrator:

I just mean there were some moments where I felt there was an opportunity for the camera to do.

Narrator:

To do more.

Narrator:

But that's my minor criticism.

Narrator:

My minor criticism.

Narrator:

But for me, the story, the characters, everything works so well on me, and I don't even quite know how to explain it, but it hits this kind of nerve where I find this movie to be an incredibly emotional experience.

Narrator:

So for me, it's a solid four star.

Narrator:

And to sum up my review, I'll say that I love how at the very end, it just.

Narrator:

The tragedy is so brutally rough that I like how the movie ends.

Narrator:

Sort of relishing in that darkness, because it could have ended and you could have just had one hopeful moment where it shows Joanna and I forget the name of the young kid that took Anthony.

Nathan Shure:

Yeah, we talked about the boy, or Anthony the.

Narrator:

The boy.

Narrator:

The boy, the young man, the 21 year old that came off with death at the beginning.

Narrator:

I feel like Joanna and Anthony, like the movie could have had this little positive coda where it just shows the beginning of their new life together.

Narrator:

But I'm glad that it didn't do that and it ended in this greek tragedy, you know what I mean?

Narrator:

So I was just like, that's an.

Nathan Shure:

Interesting perspective, because I felt like that thread just gets dropped and I don't know.

Nathan Shure:

I mean, Anthony goes off and he says he'll be back, but we don't really know.

Nathan Shure:

It's not about them.

Nathan Shure:

They're not.

Nathan Shure:

They're the B plot of this.

Nathan Shure:

That's fine.

Nathan Shure:

We're going to get into this some more.

Nathan Shure:

But you know what, Sam?

Nathan Shure:

Did you notice that there's only two of us tonight and not three of us tonight?

Narrator:

Yes, I did.

Narrator:

I did notice that.

Nathan Shure:

I don't know if our listeners did as well, but, you know, be sent me over a file that.

Nathan Shure:

To play for us, and I think it might be her review of Sweeney Todd.

Nathan Shure:

I think it's only a minute or two long, so let me listen to it.

Sam Cole:

So much of this movie really holds up for me.

Sam Cole:

I know a lot of people are very close with the source material, and obviously the movie deviates from that in some pretty significant ways.

Sam Cole:

But I do think it's always doing so in a way that is appropriate for the medium, for moving a play onto film, which is a tall order.

Sam Cole:

And let's face it, it's not always done well.

Sam Cole:

But when the movie opened and we see the CGI blood in the CGI London, I was like, oh, man, am I gonna hate this.

Sam Cole:

Has this not aged well for me?

Sam Cole:

And aside from my opinions on some of the leads which haven't aged well, that wasn't the case.

Sam Cole:

Sweeney Todd is a bit of a standout for late, Burton for me quote unquote late Burton.

Sam Cole:

And while I have a soft spot for big fish, this is miles ahead of Charlie and the chocolate factory and big eyes.

Sam Cole:

And I think it's certainly better than what comes after it.

Sam Cole:

Though I did like the second Beetlejuice.

Sam Cole:

If I'm gonna nitpick, I go back and forth on the look of this movie, the monochromatic nature of the film, usually landing on it, working, but sometimes it does just pull me out of the movie.

Sam Cole:

I kind of wish they leaned into just how silly this movie is.

Sam Cole:

Depp is awesome playing the straight man, and it's just when it's just using editing that is played for laughs, like the by the sea number, which is a number I really enjoy.

Sam Cole:

I think that sequence is wonderful, but this movie's dark, but it is funny, and I wish they leaned into that.

Sam Cole:

I think Bonham Carter is such a star in this and Rickman, and it's how we have a little Harry Potter reunion.

Sam Cole:

Overall, I enjoyed it.

Sam Cole:

Like I said, it's dark, it's juicy.

Sam Cole:

It's hard not to like it.

Sam Cole:

The songs are so fun to sing along to.

Sam Cole:

Yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and give it a three and a half out of five.

Nathan Shure:

Don't you kind of just want to, like, be able to, like, get into it about the production design and the look of the thing with her and you can't?

Narrator:

I do, because the production design is actually the thing that I.

Narrator:

That I love the most because it's like this bleak.

Narrator:

Like, I actually like the kind of stylized, unrealistic look.

Narrator:

For me, it just.

Narrator:

It's just, I mean, there's this great shot when, like, Helena Bonham Carter is walking down into the basement and you know that she's going down there to, like, get the, like, charred remains of the people to put it.

Narrator:

To put them into the pie.

Narrator:

And she looks like a demonic witch in this shot.

Narrator:

And it gives me the creeps.

Narrator:

Like, the visual design is good, I think.

Nathan Shure:

I agree, Sam.

Nathan Shure:

I think this.

Nathan Shure:

This was a time where a lot of films were experimenting with a lot of CG.

Nathan Shure:

And I was really happy that outside of that opening sequence, which I agree with Bee's take had me very worried for a moment.

Nathan Shure:

I thought maybe we were going to have a partial animated movie with the way that this movie begins had me very worried, but I thought that they didn't do as much CG as they thought they were going to do in this.

Nathan Shure:

And I was really happy.

Nathan Shure:

There were so many practical sets and I did see some of the behind the scenes footage of this.

Nathan Shure:

And this is mostly, you know, stage soundstages, and they shot in some.

Nathan Shure:

Some London locations, exterior London locations.

Nathan Shure:

So I was really happy to see that there was, this was not a CGI fest.

Nathan Shure:

And I'm so glad, because in:

Nathan Shure:

And.

Nathan Shure:

Oh, for sure.

Narrator:

Yeah.

Nathan Shure:

But, yeah, I'm really glad that B was able to submit some thoughts on this movie.

Nathan Shure:

I want to talk about the music, and there's more about the story, but I want to talk about the music for a moment, because this is something that I think that we might have a little bit of a disagreement on, but it might be because you're so familiar with the music.

Nathan Shure:

And I'm coming into this, listening to this for the first time, and I did listen to the soundtrack a second time, and I listened to the Broadway production as well.

Nathan Shure:

But this is where my take is.

Nathan Shure:

And the music, like I said, it's a collection of really incredibly well crafted songs.

Nathan Shure:

But my only real issue with the songs is that I didn't find them accessible as traditional sing along Broadway musical numbers.

Nathan Shure:

And, I mean, there, you know, there's so many memorable songs that have seeped their way into our culture that have become what I call, like, shower sing alongs.

Nathan Shure:

You know, you got, like, the sun will come out tomorrow from Annie, all that jazz.

Nathan Shure:

There's many in Chicago that I can think of, you know, west side Story, you know, I could think of, like, six or seven from there, or even Hamilton, which isn't that old either.

Nathan Shure:

But I could not grab on to anything in here.

Nathan Shure:

And it might be because the style of these songs, and I'm going to try to articulate this, but the style of these songs is written and performed as such with the performers are just kind of, like, monologuing their thoughts quickly.

Nathan Shure:

Not unlike Hamilton in a lot of ways, but I could not find catchy choruses in these songs.

Nathan Shure:

The lyrics are just so dense, and there's a lot of unconventional harmonies in here, and it keeps changing.

Nathan Shure:

A lot of these songs are changing and shift, shifting tones.

Nathan Shure:

And in structure, it's something that's hard to just, like, you know, bop your head along to.

Nathan Shure:

And it's.

Nathan Shure:

It's such a fascinating anomaly that this is a musical that is as popular with its music as it is, because it's such an outlier that these songs even exist in the first place.

Nathan Shure:

I don't know what you think, sam, but it might just because I'm just so fresh to this music, but I could not.

Nathan Shure:

I wanted to, like, find something I could, like, sing to and, like, find the repetitive nature and, like, go to work the next day and be like.

Nathan Shure:

Yeah.

Nathan Shure:

And, like.

Nathan Shure:

And find that, that tune that I want to listen to again and not a single song and be mentioned.

Nathan Shure:

The.

Nathan Shure:

What was it?

Nathan Shure:

The down by the.

Nathan Shure:

What was it?

Nathan Shure:

The sea.

Narrator:

Oh, down by the sea.

Nathan Shure:

Yeah, it's a good song.

Narrator:

Or by the sea.

Narrator:

By the sea.

Nathan Shure:

Not a bad song, but it's an oddity in his presentation, being so light and cheery and there's nothing else in the whole movie or possibly the play that is like that.

Nathan Shure:

It's a well done scene, but it's just so bizarre.

Nathan Shure:

Everything is so bizarre.

Nathan Shure:

And it wasn't.

Nathan Shure:

So.

Nathan Shure:

Anyways, that's what I wanted to say about it, but I love to hear.

Nathan Shure:

How do you feel about the music here?

Nathan Shure:

Am I wrong in that take?

Narrator:

No, I don't think you're wrong, per se, and that's how you made it feel.

Narrator:

I think what you're talking about is the nature of Stephen Sondheim and his music.

Narrator:

I mean, he did the music and the lyrics to the Broadway play and the movie into the woods, and I have always loved his music.

Narrator:

So it just might be like a personal taste thing, because for me, when I saw this in the theater, I was coming out of the theater with the lyrics, like, in my head, the tunes stuck in my head and already saying the thing.

Narrator:

I think I know what you mean about the monologuing, but, like, there's a different.

Narrator:

It's a style that is different.

Narrator:

And for me, because of the fact when you say, like, it's an outlier, to me, it stands out on its own, where it's not just kind of like a snazzy song or like a typical Broadway song, you know, music that just has a beat you can hum to.

Narrator:

I find that it sort of weaves these, like, psychological themes and motifs in it.

Narrator:

And so, like, it's.

Narrator:

The dialogue is dense, but it's like that into the woods, too.

Narrator:

And I really don't know the musical terminology, but when you're in a lot of his things, he'll, he'll go through a melody and you'll expect it to end on a certain note, but instead it will add on this, like, minor key.

Narrator:

That sounds very strange first.

Narrator:

And for me, I love that.

Narrator:

Like, I thought the music in this was excellent.

Narrator:

In fact, if it was not for the music and the, and the music, I think I would have been closer to the three star range.

Narrator:

Like, oh, this is a dark, kind of interesting, twisted gothic movie.

Narrator:

But for me, the music is what puts it into the stratosphere.

Narrator:

It's just my personal reaction to it.

Narrator:

But I love the music with its minor keys and the dialogue.

Narrator:

Or, like, the song when.

Narrator:

When they're singing about Alan Rickman and Johnny Depp are singing about women in the barber shop or when they're talking about another song, about how people taste.

Narrator:

Or when the kid is singing about, like, joanna out the window.

Narrator:

To me, I find the melodies, like, haunting and amazing.

Narrator:

So it might be a personal taste, but I feel like this music is a cut above a lot of, like, the sort of standard Broadway things.

Nathan Shure:

I know.

Nathan Shure:

I.

Nathan Shure:

And I don't disagree with your take either.

Nathan Shure:

It might just be because it's breaking my brain, you know, taking it in this way.

Nathan Shure:

I don't know.

Nathan Shure:

Do you have.

Narrator:

I mean, everyone has, like, a different I or my ears, you know, not.

Nathan Shure:

In a bad way.

Nathan Shure:

I did not dislike the music.

Nathan Shure:

It was just something that, like, I wanted to take away from this, something that I could just really sink my teeth into and sing myself.

Nathan Shure:

And this is not accessible music.

Nathan Shure:

This is really high concept, very complicated music.

Nathan Shure:

And, yes, I think I could learn to love, enjoy this music.

Nathan Shure:

If I put this on, on a regular basis, this would be something that I would learn to like.

Nathan Shure:

But it was just something that was so unconventional, was, like, I wasn't used to it.

Nathan Shure:

Sam, I want to ask you, though, do you have any favorite songs from this?

Nathan Shure:

What do they do?

Narrator:

Oh, God.

Narrator:

Yeah.

Narrator:

I don't even.

Narrator:

I.

Narrator:

When it's tough, because, I mean, I love them all, but I'm a huge fan of Joanna.

Narrator:

Like, I guess the name of it is Joanna when he's, like, singing out the window.

Narrator:

I think that's incredible.

Narrator:

I love it when Sweeney Todd is first reunited with his razor blades and he's singing this song like, these are my friends.

Nathan Shure:

My friends.

Nathan Shure:

Yeah.

Narrator:

I love, I love by the sea.

Narrator:

I mean, or, or I'm a huge.

Narrator:

The one that really is.

Narrator:

Is kind of almost rough for me, is when the.

Narrator:

When the kid is talking to Helena Bonham Carter.

Narrator:

I think the name of the song is nothing's gonna harm you.

Narrator:

And he's trying to comfort her, but, like, she's, you know, like, evil.

Narrator:

And so it's.

Narrator:

It's different for me because they, they all pop.

Narrator:

And I know.

Narrator:

I don't think the name of the song is, like, pretty women, because that's, like, a name, but, like, women it is.

Nathan Shure:

Yeah.

Narrator:

But that song, I.

Narrator:

That I could recite that for.

Narrator:

I came out of the theater with the lyrics, like, in my head, and I was, like, just singing it immediately.

Narrator:

So it just.

Narrator:

It catches me fast.

Narrator:

If I had to pick a favorite.

Narrator:

Oh, that's kind of difficult.

Narrator:

It would probably.

Narrator:

The Joanna song is just because that goes into the archetypal Romeo and Juliet.

Narrator:

He's, like, out the window pining after the woman.

Narrator:

That is, like, high up in a window, you know, it's just like.

Narrator:

It's archetypal music, I will say the songs weave themselves into the story.

Narrator:

So the songs are more like chapters.

Narrator:

But if I had to pick one, it would be that.

Narrator:

It would be that one.

Nathan Shure:

Yeah.

Nathan Shure:

There's a few that I really did like this.

Nathan Shure:

I really love.

Nathan Shure:

It's not the first song, but it's when.

Nathan Shure:

When Sweeney Todd does meet up with Nelli.

Nathan Shure:

The worst pies in London.

Nathan Shure:

I love that.

Nathan Shure:

And I just love the theatricality of the way that is staged and the way that is filmed.

Nathan Shure:

You've got Helen Bonham Carter smashing cockroaches as she's singing.

Nathan Shure:

I just love the way the choreography of that scene.

Nathan Shure:

And I think it's one of the strongest songs.

Nathan Shure:

And there's also kind of a.

Nathan Shure:

Kind of a spiritual sequel to that, which is.

Nathan Shure:

God, that's good.

Nathan Shure:

When she's got the.

Nathan Shure:

She reopens her pie shop and everybody is in there, and Sweeney Todd's, like, murdering people upstairs and everyone's eating the pies downstairs.

Nathan Shure:

And it's another one of my favorite songs, but, like, what I say if.

Narrator:

I had to, and I don't know how to categorize this as one song, but my favorite piece in the whole thing, it's like three songs is one.

Narrator:

Johnny Depp is singing about his tragedy while he's, like, cutting people's throats.

Narrator:

Anthony is outside singing about Joanna and then the beggar woman.

Narrator:

No spoilers, is like, smoke, smoke, sign of the devil.

Narrator:

Sign of the devil, city on fire.

Narrator:

But, like, it's all.

Narrator:

They're all interwoven.

Narrator:

So it's like.

Narrator:

It's a chorus.

Narrator:

It's like people proclaiming their inner monologue in a chorus.

Narrator:

That one, the way it just weaves between them.

Narrator:

But I couldn't.

Narrator:

I couldn't name what that song is.

Narrator:

I just love the way it sounds.

Nathan Shure:

And I just want to mention two others because there are, you mentioned one of them, I think pretty women, is amazing.

Nathan Shure:

And a lot of it is because you've got Depp and Rickman on screen together singing a duet pretty much.

Nathan Shure:

And that it just brought so much joy seeing them together doing that.

Nathan Shure:

And I.

Nathan Shure:

And I wish they had more numbers together in this.

Narrator:

Oh, me too.

Narrator:

I did read that Depp took some specific, like, he could sing, obviously, but he took some specific style of singing lessons in preparation for this movie.

Narrator:

So I just mentioned that because that might have helped with it, because the style of it or something.

Nathan Shure:

And I think the other one I just got mentioned is the Pirelli's miracle elixir, which opens with Toby singing that.

Nathan Shure:

And you got Sasha Baron Cohen, who is.

Nathan Shure:

I was such a joy seeing him, and he was so born to be in this role as Adolfo.

Nathan Shure:

I love that.

Nathan Shure:

And I didn't even pay attention to the opening credits.

Nathan Shure:

I don't know if he was in that.

Nathan Shure:

But, like, everything was just a wonderful surprise, especially seeing him in this.

Nathan Shure:

It was like, of course, he's in this movie, so.

Nathan Shure:

Yes.

Narrator:

Right?

Narrator:

Yeah.

Narrator:

A good fit.

Nathan Shure:

Absolutely.

Nathan Shure:

Those are probably my top four songs from this.

Nathan Shure:

There were some I did not like.

Nathan Shure:

I'm not going to dwell on the negative here, but there was equally several songs that just didn't work for me.

Nathan Shure:

I did not like.

Nathan Shure:

Poor thing.

Nathan Shure:

I did not like Green Finch and Lynette Bird, which is the song that Joanna sings.

Narrator:

Oh, God, I love that one.

Narrator:

Yeah, but see, I understand.

Narrator:

I don't have a, like, just because I love that song.

Narrator:

I can understand.

Narrator:

Like, it.

Narrator:

I.

Narrator:

I definitely get that.

Narrator:

It's not like.

Narrator:

What?

Narrator:

Oh, my God.

Narrator:

I'm so, like.

Narrator:

I understand.

Narrator:

It's.

Narrator:

It's strange.

Nathan Shure:

Like, it's.

Narrator:

It's.

Narrator:

Yeah.

Nathan Shure:

Well, a few other things here.

Nathan Shure:

The shave off.

Nathan Shure:

I love this entire scene.

Nathan Shure:

Every movie should have this.

Nathan Shure:

I don't know.

Nathan Shure:

Not just a shave off, Sam.

Nathan Shure:

A singing shave off.

Narrator:

A singing shave off the next movie.

Nathan Shure:

It's.

Nathan Shure:

I gotta somehow do this, incorporate it in.

Nathan Shure:

I don't know.

Nathan Shure:

It's wonderful.

Nathan Shure:

So what else we got here?

Nathan Shure:

So I mentioned how I was shocked that this ended up being such.

Nathan Shure:

So dark with it.

Nathan Shure:

I didn't know this was r rated movie.

Nathan Shure:

I don't know how I went this long knowing that, but I.

Nathan Shure:

The funny thing is, I think this.

Nathan Shure:

The.

Nathan Shure:

It could have.

Nathan Shure:

It could have actually been.

Nathan Shure:

No, I was about to say it could have been even darker because it feels like, you know, it's funny, I kept watching.

Nathan Shure:

Watching all this blood going everywhere.

Nathan Shure:

It looks like tomato bisque, so it's not really even like real blood.

Nathan Shure:

I kept watching it.

Nathan Shure:

It's like this is.

Nathan Shure:

It's gory, but it's not.

Nathan Shure:

It's not the.

Nathan Shure:

Quite the right shade of red for it to be gross.

Nathan Shure:

And I wonder if that was a conscious decision to not go for that.

Nathan Shure:

Like real horror, you know, red blood.

Narrator:

Yeah, like sick.

Narrator:

Yeah, like, I hear that.

Narrator:

Yeah.

Nathan Shure:

What else do we have here?

Nathan Shure:

I wanted to mention that I feel bad for.

Nathan Shure:

There's two things.

Nathan Shure:

I want to talk about Joanna.

Nathan Shure:

I want to talk about the judge Turpin for a moment.

Nathan Shure:

s a woman or how old she was,:

Nathan Shure:

Everybody wants to own her like a prize in this movie.

Nathan Shure:

And I think this is a theme of this, other than her being a damsel in distress, held against her will in a.

Nathan Shure:

I was about to say a metaphorical tower, but in this case, it really is a real, you know, Flora or on a London flat.

Nathan Shure:

You know, her.

Nathan Shure:

I wish that her character had a little more depth.

Nathan Shure:

She gets that one song, green Finch and Linnet Bird, which I already said is actually my least favorite song in this film.

Nathan Shure:

And it's supposed to explore themes of captivity and maybe the power of the human spirit and all that, comparing her to situation of being a caged birdhouse.

Nathan Shure:

But I just did not find the imagery of the song very powerful.

Nathan Shure:

And I just really.

Nathan Shure:

Her character, the actress, and I don't like to put down performances, but Joanne and Anthony, and I know they're the B plot, but they are acting up against heavyweights.

Nathan Shure:

You got Depp Rickman and Bonham Carter.

Nathan Shure:

And I found those two to be so, like, not up to par with their co star or they're the leading actors in this, that I was like.

Nathan Shure:

They felt like the type of people that they found from a Broadway production to be in this movie because they're obviously amazing vocal performer performers, but.

Narrator:

Right.

Nathan Shure:

They just like, are they actors or they stage actors?

Nathan Shure:

I was.

Narrator:

Well, that's the thing that I totally agree that I like it didn't take down the movie too much, but they are, in comparison, it looked like they were cast on their look and their voice.

Narrator:

But, like, that's about it.

Narrator:

It's almost like they're like models, you know, like clothing models.

Narrator:

Like, like really good looking clothing models, like playing roles.

Narrator:

And I know that sounds a little harsh, but, like, when, when, when Anthony is, like, smitten with her and looking up at the window, I feel, and I don't mean to detract on him, but I just feel that, like, Tim Burton gave him the direction of just, like, just stare, just look at her with wonder and he's just giving this look that's totally like surface where I just feel like their performance is like surface level, but I don't feel depth of characters behind them, really at all.

Narrator:

And they're kind of secondary.

Narrator:

But I agree.

Narrator:

They're just more kind of like.

Narrator:

Like they hit their marks and they look good, but they're just kind of.

Narrator:

There's not a lot going on there.

Nathan Shure:

Yeah.

Nathan Shure:

I want to talk about judge Turban for a moment.

Nathan Shure:

Cause character.

Nathan Shure:

I mean, alan Rickman.

Nathan Shure:

I love Alan Rickman.

Nathan Shure:

I don't think he's ever turned in a bad performance.

Nathan Shure:

And I think he's really great in this.

Nathan Shure:

However, I really wonder, and this is going to sound harsh, I wonder if he was miscast in some ways because here's the thing he can play.

Nathan Shure:

I mean, this is a guy that played Hans Gruber.

Nathan Shure:

He can play evil.

Nathan Shure:

He played the villain in Robin Hood.

Nathan Shure:

He can play evil.

Nathan Shure:

But in his later years, I think it might be because I'm so used to him aging into who he became.

Nathan Shure:

I found him still too lovable like he.

Nathan Shure:

I found him to be.

Nathan Shure:

And this is, again, me, because I like to also play devil's advocate sometimes.

Nathan Shure:

But he is.

Nathan Shure:

He's a tragic villain in a lot of ways.

Nathan Shure:

Here's.

Nathan Shure:

He's.

Nathan Shure:

Of all the characters, here's the other thing.

Nathan Shure:

Of all the characters in this movie, he turns out to be the least villainous in many ways.

Nathan Shure:

His only true crime is I, if you notice in my plot synopsis, I read that he.

Nathan Shure:

What he said he did.

Nathan Shure:

He said he raped in the death of his wife.

Nathan Shure:

Well, he didn't murder his wife.

Nathan Shure:

I don't know if he really raped his wife.

Nathan Shure:

It's so vague, really, what he does to.

Narrator:

I hear that.

Narrator:

I thought he was supposed to have raped her in that costume party scene when he covers her up.

Narrator:

Like, I think that's what was going on there.

Nathan Shure:

Okay.

Nathan Shure:

See, I was really confused what Judge Turban's crimes are other than somehow he got rid of Sweeney.

Nathan Shure:

What was Sweeney Todd's.

Nathan Shure:

Todd's original name?

Nathan Shure:

Barker.

Nathan Shure:

Right.

Narrator:

Benjamin Barker.

Nathan Shure:

Barker.

Nathan Shure:

So somehow he's like, I want this woman.

Nathan Shure:

I'm going to get rid of this guy.

Nathan Shure:

Yes.

Nathan Shure:

That's a shitty thing to do.

Nathan Shure:

And fine.

Nathan Shure:

All right.

Nathan Shure:

Yeah, he's a bad guy.

Nathan Shure:

Great.

Nathan Shure:

And he's holding this, this woman hostage.

Nathan Shure:

Shitty thing to do.

Nathan Shure:

Yes.

Nathan Shure:

Worthy of killing him.

Nathan Shure:

Probably not.

Nathan Shure:

But he's.

Nathan Shure:

I found him to be more sad and tragic because I want to know what's.

Nathan Shure:

What happened to him, who wronged him that made him such a sad, lonely person that started for companionship.

Nathan Shure:

And what I also like about his character is, you know, from his vantage point, he's the hero of his story.

Nathan Shure:

And that what makes, I think, makes a great villain also, right?

Nathan Shure:

There's a lot of internal conflict going on within him.

Nathan Shure:

Within him, he's a damaged person, but we really don't know why.

Nathan Shure:

And I know that's probably in the text of the story and the character that it's just not there.

Nathan Shure:

But I would love to have known a little bit more because I, I almost kind of want to have the redemption of the judge turban.

Nathan Shure:

Like, why did he become the way he did?

Nathan Shure:

And I feel kind of bad for him because I think something awful happened to him in his life that made him so corrupt.

Nathan Shure:

And maybe he's done this to many people before and he does deserve to go to jail and pay for his crimes.

Nathan Shure:

I'm not denying that.

Nathan Shure:

But I, because Rickman is playing him, I also have embedded kind of sympathy for his character.

Nathan Shure:

And that's just me.

Nathan Shure:

I don't know.

Nathan Shure:

That's just something that I'm kind of wrestling with.

Nathan Shure:

If it was another actor playing him more evil and sinister, it'd be interesting.

Nathan Shure:

Now, when I watched the Broadway production, I'm sorry to be hijacking this so much, Sam, you cut me off.

Narrator:

No, not at all.

Nathan Shure:

When I watched portions of the Broadway, because I, I watched the first ten minutes, but I kind of skipped around a little bit.

Nathan Shure:

I believe the actor that plays Judge Turban is a much more kind of, like, stern, gruff and authoritative figure in that from the.

Nathan Shure:

And if you listen to it, he, he sings with a more gruff tone.

Nathan Shure:

Alan Rickman is, like, warm still.

Nathan Shure:

He's got, like, a compassionate side of him that is just part of his, what he gives to a character.

Nathan Shure:

I don't think he can be purely evil.

Nathan Shure:

Even Hans Gruber was so charming.

Nathan Shure:

You know, it's hard to hate that.

Nathan Shure:

It's hard to hate his characters.

Nathan Shure:

Even when he's playing evil.

Nathan Shure:

You love to hate him.

Nathan Shure:

And so I had a hard time.

Nathan Shure:

I had a hard time hating him.

Narrator:

And I know, and I totally understand that.

Narrator:

I think that kind of, kind of is weaved in to the style of the movie where it's like when I was saying earlier, where the movie's kind of like, if you think of, like, an opera or like a greek chorus and the hero comes out is like, I am the hero.

Narrator:

I am the hero.

Narrator:

And the bad guys, like, I'm just bad.

Narrator:

I don't like the hero, it's.

Narrator:

It's more archetypal.

Narrator:

And so I think it's the style of the storytelling that maybe didn't allow Rickman to have more depth, and him having more depth maybe would have helped.

Narrator:

So I think that's a really valid point.

Narrator:

I think the scene that was him at his most nastiest was when he invites Anthony into his house for the first time, and you're like, what's this all about?

Narrator:

And he's just showing him his bookshelf, and he's like, you.

Narrator:

I wish I could remember the exact words, but he's like, he's talking about different cultures across the world.

Narrator:

And then he's like, and you were ogling her or something like that.

Narrator:

That's not what he says.

Narrator:

There's a better line.

Narrator:

I'm forgetting it.

Narrator:

But he corners Anthony and puts him on the spot.

Narrator:

When Anthony's first invited to his home, that, to me, is the strongest character moment of, like, oh, my God, this guy is really vicious and creepy.

Narrator:

And then he gets they, you know, Anthony was on his way.

Narrator:

He's lost.

Narrator:

He's trying to find Hyde park.

Narrator:

And so he thinks he's just getting invited into the house to be told directions.

Narrator:

But then they beat him, kick him out of the house, and the beetle, like, hits him with his cane, and, like, it's like, go on your way.

Narrator:

And then a comedic moment, he, like, drops something on him as he closes the door, and it's kind of like, oh, my God, these people are.

Narrator:

Are awful.

Narrator:

You know what I mean?

Narrator:

So, like, that was the moment that made, that turned me on him.

Narrator:

But I know.

Narrator:

I know what you're saying.

Narrator:

It's like, it's almost like the structure is not allowing for more character development.

Narrator:

Maybe there was a missed opportunity there.

Nathan Shure:

I know.

Nathan Shure:

I mean, if it's not in the source material, it's not there.

Nathan Shure:

And like I said, I listened to the original play.

Nathan Shure:

This is a very close adaptation of the Broadway musical, so there's not much that changed from that.

Nathan Shure:

I want to talk about one other thing before we take a break here.

Nathan Shure:

Can I talk about what Sweeney Todd's plan is?

Nathan Shure:

Because this is really the thing that I'm most hung up on.

Narrator:

Absolutely.

Nathan Shure:

Okay.

Nathan Shure:

And, sam, please tell me what you think.

Nathan Shure:

What you think is, I'm not seeing here.

Nathan Shure:

And it could just be, as you said, this is opera logic, and it's just me being nitpicky.

Nathan Shure:

And that is, I'm sure it all it is.

Nathan Shure:

But here's the thing.

Nathan Shure:

If you really think about what's going on.

Nathan Shure:

Todd's plan.

Nathan Shure:

It makes no sense at all.

Nathan Shure:

Here he is.

Nathan Shure:

First of all, he's so singularly focused on revenge, on Judge Turpin that he hasn't thought about some basic elements of his revenge plot.

Nathan Shure:

So he could so easily have killed Turpin anytime he wanted, number one.

Nathan Shure:

And of course, if he did that, we wouldn't have a movie or any story at all.

Nathan Shure:

He didn't have to go through the elaborate nature of reopening his barbershop with the hope that the judge just might walk through there one day.

Nathan Shure:

Silly.

Nathan Shure:

All right.

Nathan Shure:

But anyways, also, his plan is just so incredibly short sighted and it's focused only on revenge without any thought about what happens after.

Nathan Shure:

So.

Nathan Shure:

Such as after his murder spree is discovering how will he protect Joanna.

Nathan Shure:

And there's no endgame to this.

Nathan Shure:

He's wasting so much time on killing just like innocent people for the benefit of Nellie's pie business and only her pie business, which has no benefit to his goal.

Nathan Shure:

Like, I don't know what he's getting out of that.

Narrator:

I totally hear that.

Narrator:

I think, I think, I think the point, or at least the way I interpret it, is that he's kind, that he's, he kind of loses it.

Narrator:

I mean, he shows up.

Narrator:

He's been, he's been away on the ocean, traveling the world for like twelve years.

Narrator:

He comes back and he's hurt and he's angry and he's desperate.

Narrator:

He has a little bit of hope.

Narrator:

But once he finds out that his wife is dead, which, you know, is not true, as we learn, in the end, then he's like, I'm overcome with the edge.

Narrator:

I got to kill this guy.

Narrator:

And he wants to kill him with his knife or his barber, you know, his blades.

Narrator:

Because of his connection that he almost gets the chance to kill Alan Rickman.

Narrator:

But then Anthony walks in, ruins that plan.

Narrator:

But I think the whole pie business afterwards is him just becoming demonic.

Narrator:

I mean, if the name of the movie is like the demon Barbara of Fleet treaty, it's, he is his revenge and his desire for revenge has overcome his reality and he's just becoming dark.

Narrator:

And it's like Captain Ahab, obsessed with the whale, goes after he's losing his grip.

Narrator:

So it's thin, it's an archetypal thing.

Nathan Shure:

But that comparison I get because Ahab is driven to killing Moby Dick and he's going after that goal.

Nathan Shure:

But what is, what is Sweeney Todd's goal in this?

Narrator:

I think, I think he wants to kill the Beatle and Alan Rickman.

Narrator:

And I think beyond that, he has no goal.

Narrator:

And I think he's so overcome with hate and anger that he just loves the idea of cutting people's throats.

Narrator:

I mean, he's just.

Narrator:

I think he's losing.

Nathan Shure:

Do you think that he has any need to.

Nathan Shure:

What would drove me nuts is that he knows his daughter is being held captive by Turpin, but he seems to have no interest in that.

Nathan Shure:

Like.

Nathan Shure:

Like, this is the thing that's kind of driving me.

Nathan Shure:

You know, not once after he returns, does he make any effort to connect with her.

Nathan Shure:

He shows absolutely no interest for her well being.

Nathan Shure:

Or he could have formulated a plan to rescue her with her.

Nathan Shure:

I mean, this is not a person that's of right mind.

Nathan Shure:

I get that.

Nathan Shure:

But it's.

Nathan Shure:

Again, I'm looking at this very logically.

Nathan Shure:

Somebody who, if I were in his shoes, that probably wasn't driven to madness, would go about this differently.

Nathan Shure:

And I get that.

Nathan Shure:

So I'm not trying to say, well, I could have, should have done this and that, and it would make sense.

Nathan Shure:

You know, this is.

Nathan Shure:

This is fantasy.

Nathan Shure:

I get that.

Nathan Shure:

But because it just throws away all logic, I mean, all semblance, like, of any planet at all, that makes sense.

Nathan Shure:

It's just kind of this big, giant plot hole that I'm like, I don't get.

Nathan Shure:

As an alternative.

Nathan Shure:

I just wanted him to just.

Nathan Shure:

If you want revenge, just go fucking John Wick on the bad guys and get the job done.

Nathan Shure:

Stop all the music in theatrics and just do it.

Nathan Shure:

That's all he had to do.

Narrator:

I totally hear you.

Narrator:

That's a really good point.

Narrator:

I think there's just one.

Narrator:

There's one song, and I can't remember, but he said something about how, like, he was like.

Narrator:

And I'll never see, Joanna, like, there's some turning point where he's given up on even trying.

Narrator:

And there was some impetus for that, that it's directly connected to what you're talking about.

Narrator:

But I can't remember the scene that well.

Narrator:

So, I mean, I get.

Narrator:

I totally understand.

Narrator:

I totally understand.

Nathan Shure:

I'm just airing my grievances, Sam.

Nathan Shure:

But because they had to get it out.

Nathan Shure:

Had to get it out.

Nathan Shure:

That's it.

Nathan Shure:

So this is.

Nathan Shure:

This is where I'm just kind of like, you know, where am I with this?

Nathan Shure:

Because, again, there's so much still amazing movie making happening here, but that's where I'm at.

Narrator:

So I totally.

Narrator:

I totally hear that.

Narrator:

Yeah.

Nathan Shure:

Anything else you want to add to this?

Narrator:

I love it when he throws Helena Bonham Carter into the furnace.

Narrator:

That that scene, like, really, I find it kind of frightening.

Nathan Shure:

It's savage.

Narrator:

Savage.

Narrator:

And it's kind of scary.

Narrator:

Like, I just, like, I actually feel, like, nervous watching that scene.

Narrator:

Like, oh, my God.

Narrator:

Because it's so dark.

Narrator:

It's, like, so dark and so tragic.

Narrator:

And then when he realizes his wife is still alive, and then when it's.

Narrator:

She died, it's just like, it is so.

Narrator:

The outcome is so awful that I just am sitting there like, f.

Narrator:

But I like that.

Narrator:

I will say I like how the end just, like, nose dives into the abyss rather than being.

Narrator:

And then he cheered up and started a pie business without bodies in it.

Narrator:

I like how it doesn't have an epitaph of hope where it's just like, it's like the movie goes into a dark, fiery volcano, and then it ends and you're like, oh, my.

Nathan Shure:

It's really interesting how, you know, after he knows what he's done and he's accepted his faith and he's just.

Nathan Shure:

He's sitting there.

Nathan Shure:

He's kneeling there over his wife, and he's.

Nathan Shure:

He's waiting to die, and he's.

Nathan Shure:

Because he.

Nathan Shure:

He's almost, like, waiting for Toby to do it and.

Narrator:

Exactly.

Nathan Shure:

And it's one of the few times where I think we have a hero or anti hero where I'm just.

Nathan Shure:

Yeah, just.

Nathan Shure:

Just kill him.

Nathan Shure:

Because, like, I'm like, that's the thing.

Narrator:

He's not beyond redemption, like the movie as.

Narrator:

And the plot.

Narrator:

I mean, it is really thin, if you think about it with logic.

Narrator:

I think it's about his descent into evil and madness.

Narrator:

And it's like this kind of musical interpretation of someone who is so filled with hate and despair that they can't even.

Narrator:

He just, like, digs his own grave, metaphorically.

Nathan Shure:

Yeah, there was.

Nathan Shure:

Yeah, great point.

Nathan Shure:

You know, I was.

Nathan Shure:

I was reading a quote from another one of Tim Burton's films, which kind of relates to this here villainy wears many masks, none so dangerous as the mask of virtue.

Nathan Shure:

And that's from his film Sleepy Hollow, which Ichabod Crane says.

Nathan Shure:

And I did some research today, and I think that resonates through much this film and much of Tim Burton's characters, you know, explores the themes of deception, duality, concealing the true nature behind masks.

Nathan Shure:

And I think that this applies to a lot of his films.

Nathan Shure:

I was saying.

Nathan Shure:

And Judge Turpin and Sweeney Todd.

Nathan Shure:

You could even look at Willy Wonka, another enigmatic figure, someone with childlike nature on the surface, but there's this dark edge to him.

Nathan Shure:

It's hidden by a facade.

Nathan Shure:

Batman, for sure.

Narrator:

And J.

Narrator:

I actually kind of like.

Narrator:

No.

Narrator:

In Batman and Joker, I actually kind of like.

Narrator:

It's a weird thing to say because there's some outlandish stuff, but I kind of like how Tim Burton's direction is kind of reined in in this film.

Narrator:

I know that's a weird way to describe it because there is craziness, but there's this focus on the story and the simple archetypal elements, where I feel like movies like Willy Wonka or Alice in Wonderland, where he gets lost in this kind of, like, razzle dazzle, like, atmospheric all over the place.

Narrator:

And this movie is just, like, straight down the middle.

Narrator:

I kind of.

Narrator:

I like how he's.

Narrator:

He's.

Narrator:

He's reined himself in a little bit.

Narrator:

I mean, if there's this movie doesn't have, like, you know, skeleton dancing on roofs and Danny Elfman, like, you know, like, I just.

Narrator:

I just like that focus.

Nathan Shure:

And, you know, one other.

Nathan Shure:

It's like Edward Scissorhands, you know, works the same but opposite way.

Nathan Shure:

You know, where it applies, where Edward Scissorhands, you know, he appears as the monster, but his true nature is being kind and gentle.

Nathan Shure:

So I, you know, I just happened to be going through some articles today, and I saw that, and I just think that is something that really grabbed me.

Nathan Shure:

And I just wanted to mention that quote before we wrap this up.

Narrator:

That's a really good point.

Narrator:

This is like the mirror opposite of Edward Scissorhands, where it's like, you think he might be good, but no, he is completely unredeemable.

Narrator:

Yeah.

Nathan Shure:

So.

Nathan Shure:

All right.

Nathan Shure:

I think this was a really cool discussion.

Nathan Shure:

Let's just take a quick break.

Nathan Shure:

I just want to thank everyone who tuned into our podcast, if you like what you are hearing, and it would mean the world to us if you would just hit that subscribe button.

Nathan Shure:

That way you get a brand new episode in your feed each and every week.

Nathan Shure:

More importantly, we don't have the funds for paid advertising for the show, so we count on our friends of the show to help us.

Nathan Shure:

And you can do so by telling the people you know about this podcast.

Nathan Shure:

Word of mouth is the most powerful way to spread the word about something you love.

Nathan Shure:

And you can do so by simply sharing our episodes on your social media feed.

Nathan Shure:

You can find us online@backtotheframerate.com and follow us on our social media.

Nathan Shure:

On our socials with the handle back to the frame rate on Facebook, Instagram threads, TikTok, YouTube, and Twitter, where we love to engage with our audience.

Nathan Shure:

Finally, we'd also be extremely grateful if you left us a five star review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

Nathan Shure:

Thank you, everyone, for your continued support.

Nathan Shure:

It is time for us to get to our verdict on whether Sweeney Todd, the demon barber of Fleet street, is saved or purged into the fiery abyss.

Narrator:

I like the idea.

Narrator:

Purged.

Narrator:

Purged.

Narrator:

And for the audience, as we know, it's nothing.

Narrator:

Not Benjamin Barker.

Narrator:

It's Benjamin Barker.

Nathan Shure:

I want to get a bumper for this, but I have, I guess, at the end, so there's.

Nathan Shure:

Well, I guess since I did my review first, I'll go first.

Nathan Shure:

You know what?

Nathan Shure:

I'm still don't know.

Nathan Shure:

I don't know.

Nathan Shure:

But you know what?

Nathan Shure:

You said something, Sam, in the beginning that I has been kicking around, and that is this movie in the context of its contemporaries.

Nathan Shure:

And I'm gonna look at it that way.

Nathan Shure:

This came out in:

Nathan Shure:

There are other musicals like, this is better.

Nathan Shure:

Well, I think I like Chicago more.

Narrator:

Oh, me too.

Narrator:

Definitely.

Narrator:

Yeah.

Narrator:

That.

Narrator:

You talk about catchy music, Chicago.

Narrator:

See, but the difference that Chicago makes is when it breaks into song, Chicago does this brilliant editing thing where it's, like, their state of mind, but it cuts back and forth between reality.

Narrator:

I think Chicago is like.

Narrator:

Like a masterpiece.

Narrator:

I definitely like it.

Nathan Shure:

I gotta compare it to things like that.

Nathan Shure:

Compared to, like, Moulin Rouge.

Nathan Shure:

But there's other things have come out in the last ten years that it's.

Nathan Shure:

This is so much better than there's, like, yesterday, which I did not like.

Narrator:

I saw that.

Narrator:

That's the one where everyone forgets.

Narrator:

Is that the one where everyone forgets the Beatles song?

Nathan Shure:

Yes.

Nathan Shure:

a lot of musicals of the last:

Nathan Shure:

A couple in there, but Sweeney Todd is in, for all my reservations with some of the music.

Nathan Shure:

This is so well done, and it is probably still the best Burton movie since big fish.

Nathan Shure:

Still, for me, I guess, because I still.

Nathan Shure:

I did like the Speedojo sequel, but it's kind of fading on me a little bit as I.

Nathan Shure:

As the more I think about it.

Narrator:

I'm on your exact same page.

Narrator:

This.

Nathan Shure:

I'm gonna say yes.

Nathan Shure:

By a nose hair.

Nathan Shure:

I'm gonna say yes.

Nathan Shure:

I'll put it in the vault.

Nathan Shure:

Because it is of its time.

Nathan Shure:

It is.

Nathan Shure:

It is doing really good.

Nathan Shure:

Things.

Nathan Shure:

I don't know how I.

Nathan Shure:

If that explained it well enough, but sure, yes.

Narrator:

Okay.

Narrator:

I totally hear that.

Nathan Shure:

That was hard.

Nathan Shure:

That was hard.

Narrator:

Oh, no, I hear you.

Narrator:

I hear you.

Narrator:

Yeah.

Narrator:

I.

Narrator:

I mean, I would be.

Narrator:

Oh, I know.

Narrator:

I'm so.

Narrator:

I'm so merciful on the vault.

Narrator:

For me, the reason that.

Narrator:

That I would say yes as well is just because it's such a specific outlier that the atmosphere of this movie is so strong and has such a vibe to it.

Narrator:

And I specifically like Stephen Sondheim because of his unique style of music.

Narrator:

I would.

Narrator:

I would put it in the vault for that reason.

Narrator:

And also, just because we have no musicals yet at all, I don't think, you know.

Narrator:

Yeah.

Narrator:

I think of it from, like, you know, this is a movie also a factor for me is, like, if I feel ever like watching it again, and I like coming back to this movie every once in a while.

Narrator:

So it would be a yes for me, not a resounding, like, oh, this has to go on the vault.

Narrator:

But, like, you, it could slip out.

Narrator:

But it's just.

Narrator:

It gives it just a little bit of a hair where I feel like it.

Narrator:

I feel like I would be happy to put it in there.

Nathan Shure:

I think that's another reason why I am.

Nathan Shure:

I would watch this again because I'm curious to see what my take on it would be as the other thing.

Nathan Shure:

So.

Nathan Shure:

Yeah, so we have another opinion here.

Nathan Shure:

Sam, did you notice that there's only two of us and that three of us here tonight?

Narrator:

Now that you mentioned it, now that you mention it.

Narrator:

Where is bea?

Narrator:

Where is bea stevenson?

Narrator:

Musical.

Nathan Shure:

Bea did submit her thoughts on if this movie should be in the vault or not.

Nathan Shure:

I kind of am curious.

Nathan Shure:

I have not listened to this yet.

Nathan Shure:

For the listeners at home.

Nathan Shure:

She sent these, her review in her inner decision, and I just threw it into the pod, and I don't know what she's going to say.

Nathan Shure:

So let's see what it is.

Sam Cole:

So my verdict for the vault is a no.

Sam Cole:

Unfortunately.

Sam Cole:

I really enjoy this movie, but I don't think we need to keep it forever.

Sam Cole:

There'll be better musicals, and there's better Burton flicks, there's better players adaptations.

Sam Cole:

I don't know.

Sam Cole:

I don't think it's the one that we need to keep for posterity for future generations.

Sam Cole:

But I'll see what you two decide.

Nathan Shure:

You know, she didn't seem very confident in that.

Nathan Shure:

No.

Nathan Shure:

She was like, eh, no, but, you know, I could be convinced to a yes.

Narrator:

I hear that.

Nathan Shure:

I don't know, Sam, you might just got me on a, on a day where I'm just have a soft spot, you know, I feel, you know, just.

Narrator:

I hear you.

Nathan Shure:

No, I'm in a giving mood.

Narrator:

I totally understand.

Nathan Shure:

Too bad I didn't feel this way when we did Temple of Doom, huh?

Narrator:

I don't think, I don't think there's any hope of me influencing your opinion on Temple of Doom, especially when you put that in the last possible place it could go.

Narrator:

Like, even if I worked on you for like 40 minutes, I might be able to get it above crystal skull.

Narrator:

But like, I have given up on that battle.

Narrator:

My feathers are not ruffled.

Narrator:

I actually went back and I listened to that episode because I highly enjoyed Anthony and Bea's reaction to, like what?

Narrator:

I actually listened to that in the car last night.

Narrator:

I was coming back from San Diego and it was fun.

Narrator:

It was fun to listen to.

Nathan Shure:

Sam, are you ready to play a game?

Narrator:

I was born ready.

Narrator:

There are ways to win this.

Narrator:

Hidden all around you.

Narrator:

Just remember, x marks the spot for the treasure.

Narrator:

If you do not kill Adam by six, then Allison and Diana will die.

Narrator:

Doctor Gordon and I'll leave you in.

Nathan Shure:

This room to rot.

Narrator:

Let the game begin.

Nathan Shure:

It's spooky season.

Narrator:

It is spooky.

Narrator:

Oh, glorious.

Narrator:

Yeah.

Narrator:

So that's how I feel when I wake up every morning.

Narrator:

It's like the life is a challenge and you will succeed to great heights or fall into the darkness.

Nathan Shure:

So once again, I failed to mention at the top of the show, but for our segment after our verdict tonight, we have a little game.

Nathan Shure:

Tonight we are going to be doing our Johnny Depp top five films.

Nathan Shure:

He wasn't in, but we think he should have been in.

Nathan Shure:

Dun dun dun.

Nathan Shure:

This should be interesting.

Nathan Shure:

We've never done anything like this before.

Nathan Shure:

We've done some top fives, maybe one or two in prior shows, but this will be something new for us.

Nathan Shure:

First question I just want to ask you, Sam, when we thought of this last week, and you've been toiling over this list, I'm sure for eight days now, you know what?

Narrator:

Did you have any crime every, every moment of every day?

Nathan Shure:

Did you have any criteria going to this?

Nathan Shure:

How did you prepare this list?

Narrator:

Well, you know what?

Narrator:

Even though it's kind of loose, what I noticed that actually was a strong factor.

Narrator:

And this almost has to do with casting and typecasting in Hollywood.

Narrator:

I thought of the versions of Johnny Depp because it's like there's the creepy Johnny Depp and then there's like the straight edge Johnny Depp in that.

Narrator:

What was the movie about?

Narrator:

Remember the movie where he's the finding Neverland?

Narrator:

He's the guy.

Narrator:

Didn't he write where he's very like.

Narrator:

And so I feel just in a nutshell that my perception of this is what is how he is, how I perceive him as an actor.

Narrator:

And so a lot of the, on my list, they tend to be things where, oh, of course, Johnny Depp could fit into that movie, but I don't know if my list is very much a stretch.

Narrator:

And that might have to do with just, like, perception of actors in general.

Nathan Shure:

Okay.

Nathan Shure:

Yeah.

Nathan Shure:

Did I, my strategy, you know, I didn't really have much of a strategy at all.

Nathan Shure:

I just kind of.

Nathan Shure:

Yeah, the funny thing was, and I don't know if you did this, but I did a fun thing as I did this, when I decided what movie I was going to put him in, I looked at what year that movie came out and I thought of the consequences of that.

Nathan Shure:

So if he was going to be in that movie, that means that he was not in a movie that he actually did do that year.

Nathan Shure:

So, and I interested, as we do this list, I will mention as well what we lost also by him being in that movie.

Nathan Shure:

So that was a factor as well.

Narrator:

So interesting.

Nathan Shure:

Do you have any thoughts about Johnny Depp as an actor in general?

Nathan Shure:

We don't have to get too deep into this, but I think as an.

Narrator:

Actor in general, he has an impressive amount of range that I don't know is fully explored due to, you know, like, marketing and his popularity and roles.

Narrator:

He should be gassing.

Narrator:

But every time I've seen him in a role that I thought would be a stretch, he does it surprisingly well.

Narrator:

So I just want, I think he might be able to do things that people wouldn't necessarily expect him to be in.

Narrator:

But I think he's a, he's got range, especially for his movie star status.

Narrator:

It's not, it's not him just, oh, it's just Johnny Depp being Johnny Depp.

Narrator:

I've seen him stretch himself.

Narrator:

So I think, I think he has definite range that has been explored to, but could possibly be still explored more.

Nathan Shure:

Yeah, I agree.

Nathan Shure:

In many ways as well.

Nathan Shure:

I think he's also somebody that never really reached also his full capabilities.

Nathan Shure:

I think there's a lot of untapped ability in him.

Nathan Shure:

Like, we saw a little bit of it, I think, in the mid, early, mid nineties with Benny and June, Ed Wood, Don Juan DeMarco.

Nathan Shure:

That's even some of the more Hollywood studio productions.

Nathan Shure:

He's been in so many.

Nathan Shure:

He's been excellent or very good in a lot of bad movies, but it wasn't because of him.

Nathan Shure:

It's often times poor writing, poor production, just bad marketing.

Nathan Shure:

They just didn't know what they were doing with the movie.

Nathan Shure:

And I look at things like Nick of time or the 9th gate or a lot of these movies that is like, what, you know, or from hell.

Nathan Shure:

And these aren't necessarily bad movies, but it's like they're star vehicles that.

Nathan Shure:

That just kind of went off the rails.

Nathan Shure:

And I look at those movies, and he's not the reason why these movies are bad.

Narrator:

No, no.

Narrator:

I even thought he was good in the rum diaries.

Narrator:

I don't remember that well.

Narrator:

But the movie was like, okay, you.

Nathan Shure:

Know, are you ready?

Nathan Shure:

Who do you want to go first?

Nathan Shure:

You want me to begin or you want to begin?

Narrator:

You begin on this one.

Nathan Shure:

So my, and here's the way I did my order, by the way.

Nathan Shure:

I went in descending chronological order.

Nathan Shure:

Sam.

Narrator:

Oh, wow.

Narrator:

That is way more than I just.

Narrator:

Yeah.

Nathan Shure:

So we're going to work our way backwards through time.

Nathan Shure:

My number, if I'm going five through one.

Nathan Shure:

But honestly, there's no order in the quality of these movies.

Nathan Shure:

It's just the way I'm doing this.

Nathan Shure:

So.

Nathan Shure:

Suicide Squad:

Nathan Shure:

This was not a good movie.

Nathan Shure:

The first thing I would do is replace Johnny Depp with one of the most unique and memorable performances from the last ten years, but also one of the most divisive.

Nathan Shure:

My plan was originally to avoid any superhero comic book characters because I don't think Depp translates well into that genre.

Nathan Shure:

But there is one character that I, and many would agree would have been a fascinating casting choice.

Nathan Shure:

That is why in the:

Nathan Shure:

In that I think he would.

Narrator:

I see that.

Nathan Shure:

I think he would have created a very, like, brash and unexpected take on the character, and this movie still would not have been good.

Nathan Shure:

But I would love to have just seen his take on the Joker.

Nathan Shure:

And this is something that has bounced around the Internet for years.

Nathan Shure:

This is not an original idea, but it's something that I agree with.

Nathan Shure:

Would have been really cool to see.

Nathan Shure:

Funny thing is, like I said before, if he goes in this movie, something that means he can't do something else.

Nathan Shure:

So this also means that we never got to make fantastic beasts and where to find them, which came out that same year.

Nathan Shure:

So that means in this alternate universe, I am casting Cillian Murphy, Killian Murphy, taking on that role, which would have made that maybe a better, better film.

Nathan Shure:

So I am.

Nathan Shure:

I've really expanded this.

Nathan Shure:

Okay.

Nathan Shure:

That's my.

Nathan Shure:

That's my first one.

Nathan Shure:

My number five.

Nathan Shure:

I'll call it whatever.

Narrator:

So for my number five, and I don't know if I'll get the chronological time.

Nathan Shure:

You'll have to.

Nathan Shure:

That was my neurosis.

Narrator:

But I think that I would cast.

Narrator:

I think Johnny Depp could have played Brad Pitt's role as Ben Rickert in the big short.

Narrator:

I think he could have done that.

Narrator:

And I.

Narrator:

I think as Brad Pitt kind of went against type in that movie.

Narrator:

I think Johnny Depp could have totally inhabited that role.

Narrator:

And I just could.

Narrator:

I could just see him just.

Narrator:

It'd be a very different than what Brad Pitt, but I could have seen him doing that, and I think he would have just fit into that movie.

Narrator:

In fact, I think he could have played any of the main characters in that movie, maybe less Steve Carell, but.

Narrator:

But maybe.

Narrator:

Maybe Christian Bale's role, although I hesitate to say that, because Christian Bale was just excellent in that.

Narrator:

So I would say the Brad Pitt role.

Nathan Shure:

I like that a lot, Sam.

Nathan Shure:

I like that a lot.

Nathan Shure:

That's good.

Nathan Shure:

That's good.

Nathan Shure:

All right, so my number four.

Nathan Shure:

There are a lot of reasons why lady in the water was a failure.

Nathan Shure:

It's got an overly complex and convoluted storyline.

Nathan Shure:

I had high expectations, too.

Nathan Shure:

An air of self indulgence, maybe.

Narrator:

Oh, my God.

Nathan Shure:

But I also think that the audience didn't click well with the casting apology.

Nathan Shure:

Amati in the role of Cleveland Heap, who plays a superintendent of a hotel complex.

Nathan Shure:

And I'm not saying that casting Johnny Depp changes the fate of this film, but when I envision him in the role, I feel it fits the needs of a better, like, fairy tale prince type of Persona.

Nathan Shure:

His Persona also fits better, fits the tone of a dreamlike, fantastical quality that this film has.

Nathan Shure:

Giamatti, you know, always came off too grounded, I think, for this role.

Nathan Shure:

Yes, that's my pick.

Nathan Shure:

I would replace Paul Giamatti, you know, with Johnny Depp as Cleveland heap in this movie.

Narrator:

I totally see that.

Narrator:

Yeah.

Narrator:

I will make a quick side comment of, you know, I do not mind directors casting themselves in their own movie, but for me, it was a stretch.

Narrator:

Not only does M.

Narrator:

Night Shalom cast himself as a writer in that movie, but a torture writer, and he gives himself a lot of screen time and speeches.

Narrator:

And I was like, oh, my God, man.

Narrator:

Like, please tone it down.

Nathan Shure:

So I realize this causes a rift in the space time continuum because at this time, Depp would have come out with the third pirates of the caribbean movie, dead man's chest.

Nathan Shure:

That's okay, because in this alt universe, Matthew McConaughey was available and took the mantle as Captain Jack Sparrow.

Nathan Shure:

This was before the McConnascence, and he.

Nathan Shure:

So he played it in the southern, smooth talking, laid back roguishness.

Nathan Shure:

So I think it's.

Nathan Shure:

It'll be fine.

Narrator:

This was.

Narrator:

Wait two.

Narrator:

That was that.

Narrator:

2006.

Nathan Shure:

2006.

Narrator:

Okay, so you.

Narrator:

Dead man's chest.

Narrator:

So then at world's end.

Narrator:

Okay.

Narrator:

Yeah, yeah.

Narrator:

So that's the second pirates, but it doesn't matter.

Narrator:

Yeah, who cares?

Nathan Shure:

Maybe I get the title wrong.

Nathan Shure:

I don't know.

Narrator:

So.

Nathan Shure:

Yeah.

Nathan Shure:

All right.

Nathan Shure:

What's your.

Nathan Shure:

What's your next one?

Nathan Shure:

Your number four.

Narrator:

would be Christopher Nolan's:

Narrator:

I think that Johnny Depp could have done a good job at the Cillian Murphy role of the scarecrow comes up again.

Narrator:

Yeah, I like that.

Narrator:

I think.

Narrator:

I think he could have done it.

Narrator:

Like, I think it would have been different, but I think he would have been equally powerful in his own different, deppish way.

Nathan Shure:

100%.

Nathan Shure:

Oh, I like that a lot.

Nathan Shure:

We have them both as villains and in the DC universe.

Narrator:

Totally do it.

Nathan Shure:

Yeah.

Nathan Shure:

All right, so my number three, this next choice is the only one.

Nathan Shure:

Honestly, I don't think they got the casting wrong, but I would just have loved to have seen Depp in this role.

Nathan Shure:

The:

Nathan Shure:

The problems with this film, again, aren't the fault of Jackmande or the cast.

Nathan Shure:

It's actually, I think, a fun movie, but some really Janky CG Jackman, though, I always felt was kind of, he's still kind of odd casting because he's kind of young here, handsome and really physically fit.

Nathan Shure:

And also there's like this innocence to him that I think if Johnny Depp was in the role of Hellsing, it would have had suited the essence of the character of Helsing a little bit better.

Nathan Shure:

Hellsing, to me, should be a character would shape of gray and darkness and Depp.

Nathan Shure:

Depp's previous work with Tim Burton such, you know, with sleepy Howell or Edward scissorhands showcases how well he personifies characters that have that macabre aesthetic.

Nathan Shure:

So I think he would have really been great in that role.

Nathan Shure:

So.

Nathan Shure:

Yep.

Nathan Shure:

Van Helsing.

Narrator:

I could totally see that?

Narrator:

Yeah, these are really good.

Narrator:

All of these.

Narrator:

I'm like, yeah, no, it's like because he fits, you know what I mean?

Nathan Shure:

And fortunately, in:

Nathan Shure:

So I'm going to pluck him out of secret window, a film that I know I saw 20 years ago, but I have absolutely zero recollection of.

Nathan Shure:

And put them in Van Helsing.

Nathan Shure:

All right, Sam, what's your number?

Nathan Shure:

Three.

Narrator:

So I think this is by far my laziest.

Narrator:

Laziest one.

Narrator:

But because it's just not a stretch.

Narrator:

And it's like.

Narrator:

Does not exercise the brain muscle.

Narrator:

But I think he could.

Narrator:

I think he could play Joaquin Phoenix in inherent Vice.

Nathan Shure:

You know, that's one of my piles of shame.

Nathan Shure:

I am yet to see it.

Nathan Shure:

I'm so, I hate to admit that.

Narrator:

I'm not a huge.

Narrator:

It's okay.

Narrator:

I'm not a huge fan.

Narrator:

I really like PT Anderson when he's doing his own thing and not adapting a novel.

Narrator:

But, like, I just feel like Depp could fit in that role.

Narrator:

It's not a stretch.

Narrator:

You know, like stoner detective.

Narrator:

Kind of a little out of it, a little loopy.

Narrator:

I mean, it's, that's why I think it's lazy, because it's like, yeah, it's.

Nathan Shure:

I don't know.

Nathan Shure:

Is it very.

Nathan Shure:

I mean, I haven't seen them in a long time.

Nathan Shure:

Is it very far from his character from like Rum Diary or fear and loathing?

Nathan Shure:

I'm.

Nathan Shure:

Because I haven't seen.

Narrator:

It's kind of close.

Narrator:

It's.

Narrator:

It's a little bit, it's more like slightly off kilter, maybe a bit more subtle.

Narrator:

But it's, it's, it's in that wheelhouse.

Narrator:

Like, it's not a stretch at all for him to play that role.

Nathan Shure:

Okay.

Narrator:

He could do it, I think.

Narrator:

Yeah.

Nathan Shure:

Okay.

Nathan Shure:

So this next one is actually my number one choice, but it's number two because I'm, again, going in reverse chronological order here.

Nathan Shure:

This is one that I really wish could have happened.

Nathan Shure:

And I can so envision it.

Nathan Shure:

So it's:

Nathan Shure:

We had around this time the american godzilla, Lake placid, deep blue sea, the relic species.

Nathan Shure:

But I think we might be able to agree that the film with one of the biggest cult followings is the absurdity, the movie known as Anaconda.

Nathan Shure:

I love anaconda.

Nathan Shure:

Gotta say, I don't know what actor you think I'm thinking of, but the actor that I think I could replace him with, well, I think Jon Voight, all his memorable moments in this film is so miscast.

Nathan Shure:

He's making some very strange acting choices, and he's just not a very compelling villain, in my opinion.

Nathan Shure:

But swap out his character of Paul Cerone with a mid thirties Johnny Depp at the peak of his powers and, whoa.

Nathan Shure:

I, now, I think that would, not.

Narrator:

Only would that have injected more energy, but I think you just made a, an excellent decision.

Narrator:

I think you just increased the box office of that movie.

Narrator:

Yeah.

Nathan Shure:

I mean, now, I wouldn't want this film to lose its campy nature, and losing Voight does run that risk.

Nathan Shure:

But I think what you get is a much more interesting villain, a much more nuanced villainous would have been more psychological in a darker portrayal of that character of Ciron.

Nathan Shure:

Definitely sweatier and more seductive.

Nathan Shure:

Just imagine him among this ensemble, you know, ice Cube and J.

Nathan Shure:

Lo and Owen Wilson.

Nathan Shure:

I mean, Eric Stoltz, it just boggles the mind.

Nathan Shure:

Like, I just, it never happened.

Nathan Shure:

But I like to think in alternative universe, he played this role.

Nathan Shure:

It's so good.

Narrator:

I wholeheartedly.

Narrator:

I want to see that movie.

Nathan Shure:

Yeah.

Nathan Shure:

So here's the point.

Nathan Shure:

Anaconda did come out the same year as Donnie Brasco.

Nathan Shure:

So that would mean that we'd lose that film, but I would take the Johnny Depp Anaconda movie over Donnie Brasco.

Nathan Shure:

So there you go.

Narrator:

I hear that.

Narrator:

Yeah, I, man, I applaud that.

Narrator:

I love this game.

Nathan Shure:

All right, what is your number two?

Narrator:

Okay, so my number two.

Narrator:

Now, this is a smaller role, but I would think, and you really don't see this character that much in this movie, but in once upon a time in Hollywood, I think Johnny Depp would have made a scary Charles Manson.

Nathan Shure:

Ooh.

Narrator:

And he's, he's got, I think he's got, like, it's been a while since I've seen.

Narrator:

He's got, like, one scene and he's talked about, he doesn't show up at the ranch, I think, which is where he's, like, where his cult is.

Narrator:

But Johnny Depp as that character in that movie would have just been, like, effective, I think, very small.

Narrator:

It's not like a star vehicle.

Nathan Shure:

I'm sorry, Sam.

Nathan Shure:

I forget who, who plays Charles Manson in that movie now?

Narrator:

I don't.

Narrator:

Let me check it.

Narrator:

Right.

Narrator:

I don't know.

Narrator:

Off the top.

Narrator:

Let me see.

Narrator:

Let's see.

Narrator:

Oh, come on.

Narrator:

Phone.

Narrator:

Help me out here.

Narrator:

Char, who plays.

Nathan Shure:

I'm looking right here.

Narrator:

Charles Manson Damon Harriman, who portrays Manson, also portrays him in David Fincher's Netflix series Mindhunter.

Nathan Shure:

I don't even remember the scene, so I don't know how to.

Narrator:

It's a short scene where he literally is only in one sheen, and he shows up.

Nathan Shure:

Oh, I kind of remember that.

Narrator:

At a house asking for directions, and you see him walking down the driveway and you're like, oh, my God, that's Charles Manson.

Nathan Shure:

I do remember that now.

Nathan Shure:

I kind of forgot about that.

Nathan Shure:

But yeah.

Nathan Shure:

Okay.

Nathan Shure:

All right, so we're onto our number one picks.

Nathan Shure:

Again, not in any particular order for me, but so we're going way, way, way back.

Nathan Shure:

My number one film that, well, going the furthest back I would go that I would have Johnny Depp in, that he was in they should have been in is a film that a particular host on this podcast likes or maybe loves.

Nathan Shure:

But I've been open about airing my grievances on.

Nathan Shure:

It's from one of our greatest art tour directors, and it's his third film in his filmography.

Nathan Shure:

hlin as Paul Atreides in Dune:

Nathan Shure:

I would love that.

Nathan Shure:

Now, here's the great thing.

Nathan Shure:

Now, what's fascinating is both McLaughlin and Depp, this would have been their film debut.

Nathan Shure:

Cause right across the lot, Johnny Depp is making his film debut in Nightmare and Elm street at the same time.

Nathan Shure:

And they're only a few years apart in age.

Nathan Shure:

So I thought about this for a while.

Nathan Shure:

But what I.

Nathan Shure:

So they could easily just swapped roles.

Nathan Shure:

Now, I don't know if McLaughlin would have done very well in Nightmare and Elm Street.

Nathan Shure:

I don't think it would have worked as well.

Nathan Shure:

Doesn't have that kind of edge.

Nathan Shure:

You know, McLaughlin going on to star in that, which means that McLaughlin coming back in his cameo in Freddy's dead, the final nightmare, would not be that cool.

Nathan Shure:

It would just be sad also, anyways.

Nathan Shure:

But I found McLaughlin's, you know, just, he was just very stoic and detached in that role where if Depp was in that, there would be a lot more complexity and emotional depth and would have come off.

Nathan Shure:

It's just much better.

Nathan Shure:

I mean, Depp can brood with the best of them, and he's got an edge and a darkness that would have been incredible as Atreides.

Nathan Shure:

However, I don't think Depp in this role would have changed the fate of this film.

Nathan Shure:

I think it would have bombed just as bad.

Narrator:

Certainly it would have helped a little bit.

Narrator:

But the.

Narrator:

Yeah, that movie is still the movie.

Narrator:

But Depp in that role, like, could have been awesome.

Nathan Shure:

Yeah.

Nathan Shure:

And I think that's one of the reasons why I have a hard time with the movie because I, I think McLaughlin is just really, really miscast in, in dune, but that is, I totally.

Narrator:

I totally hear that.

Narrator:

Yeah.

Nathan Shure:

There you go.

Nathan Shure:

That, that's my number one.

Nathan Shure:

What do you got?

Narrator:

That, so mine, although it's not necessarily a huge role, I just see him doing this perfectly.

Narrator:

It's a:

Nathan Shure:

Yes.

Narrator:

And Pickford is supposed to have this huge party at his house and he is a total hilarious burnouthe out.

Narrator:

There's a great scene where he's like trying to order a keg of beer before his parents are leaving and they catch him.

Narrator:

pp in this role at his age in:

Narrator:

But I think he just would have been like pitch perfect as well.

Narrator:

I loved Sean Andrews.

Narrator:

I'm glad it's Sean Andrews.

Narrator:

I thought he was excellent.

Narrator:

But Johnny Depp as Pickford in days and confused would have been what?

Narrator:

It just felt like a glove as well.

Nathan Shure:

I love Daisy confused.

Nathan Shure:

I actually, that's weird because I don't want anything to change about that movie.

Nathan Shure:

But that's, that's, yeah, very, that's a, that's a very creative casting choice.

Narrator:

I like that.

Narrator:

I love the movie the way it is, too.

Narrator:

I just gave it a thought.

Narrator:

I'm like, yeah, he could do it.

Narrator:

I think the movie's perfect.

Narrator:

But yeah.

Nathan Shure:

Okay, so those are our top five Johnny Depp films that he should have been in but was not.

Nathan Shure:

We would love to know what you think about our top five.

Nathan Shure:

And hey, you know, if you want to participate, send us your top five films.

Nathan Shure:

We would love to read them.

Nathan Shure:

We're going kind of long tonight, Sam, but do you want to talk in our weekly highlights segment a little bit about Megalopolis for like two, three minutes?

Nathan Shure:

We're a little late to the ball game here about talking about this because, you know, by the time this episode airs, it'll probably already be on streaming.

Nathan Shure:

But it came out like two weeks ago.

Nathan Shure:

And like, we talked about the top of the show, 120 million to make.

Nathan Shure:

It made 4 million or so opening and we know what bombed.

Nathan Shure:

But what the real story is is that what people are saying about it and the amount of negativity about it is just.

Nathan Shure:

It's mind boggling.

Nathan Shure:

But I kind of understand it to some degree.

Nathan Shure:

But I think we.

Nathan Shure:

I'd like to just talk for a few minutes about what we thought of this movie.

Nathan Shure:

Because no matter what, I think it's worth talking about because it is not just a typical release.

Narrator:

Oh, yeah.

Nathan Shure:

So Francis Ford Coppola at 85 releases this movie.

Nathan Shure:

This is something that's been gestating with him for over 40 years.

Nathan Shure:

I think it goes back to maybe even like the late seventies.

Nathan Shure:

The kernel of this idea.

Nathan Shure:

He took all a whole bunch of his wine money.

Nathan Shure:

I think he sold off a few businesses in the wine industry to scour up this money.

Nathan Shure:

Hire is an all star cast.

Nathan Shure:

Gets great people to work in this movie.

Nathan Shure:

This is his vision to do it.

Nathan Shure:

It is solely his vision.

Nathan Shure:

And the world has pretty much rejected this.

Nathan Shure:

Sam, tell me your thoughts on Megalopolis.

Narrator:

I will say in a nutshell, I understand it being a hard movie to market.

Narrator:

But I would say that it swings for the fence, for the fences in such an out there bizarre and fascinating way that I am really towards the kinder review of this movie.

Narrator:

Because for me, the key is I found this wildly entertaining to watch.

Narrator:

I was never bored.

Narrator:

I thought it had some fascinating concepts.

Narrator:

I really don't quite know what to make of this movie.

Narrator:

But I have a feeling, like you were saying earlier, that it will achieve a cult classic status, at least in some circles.

Narrator:

For me, bottom line, there's a lot to unpack and I could write like a ten page review on this movie.

Narrator:

But the key factor of this was I was entertained.

Narrator:

I enjoyed myself in the theater.

Narrator:

I laughed at some scenes.

Narrator:

I found some scenes epic.

Narrator:

It was so crazy and unique that I just found it stimulating.

Narrator:

So I.

Narrator:

I don't know how to review this movie on like a star basis.

Narrator:

I don't know what to say.

Narrator:

But I swing towards the.

Narrator:

I was.

Narrator:

I.

Narrator:

I would watch this again.

Narrator:

Like, I.

Narrator:

I just.

Narrator:

I.

Narrator:

This movie was just way out there.

Narrator:

But I was entertained on a certain level and I had a great experience watching it.

Narrator:

So I don't have an anger or hate or dismissal to this movie.

Narrator:

Some people, I mean, we have a mutual friend, totally respect, that walked out of the theater and.

Narrator:

Yeah, and I, like, I can see that, but that is not the effect it had on me.

Narrator:

I was just never bored.

Nathan Shure:

That opinion.

Narrator:

I surprised myself.

Narrator:

I thought I was going to be more negative I just went in there with, like, blank and was like, whoa, what is this?

Nathan Shure:

Know that opinion that that's been a common take where people have walked out on this movie, this, as if this is the worst thing ever made.

Nathan Shure:

I have had a hard time struggling with what, like, rating to give this thing how to judge this thing, because it's a very, very simple movie with its message, but it's also just being muddled with so many ideas that Francis Ford Culpa is kind of throwing at us.

Nathan Shure:

It didn't really bother me.

Nathan Shure:

Like you, Sam, I was entertained.

Nathan Shure:

The filmmaking I don't think necessarily is great in this, but I was having such a good time because I didn't know what was going to happen next in this exact, I felt like I was watching an extremely high budget gonzo movie, like something I would see.

Nathan Shure:

And for some reason, I think people were expecting, well, this is Francis Ford Copa.

Nathan Shure:

This guy made godfather.

Nathan Shure:

He made the conversation.

Nathan Shure:

He made apocalypse now.

Nathan Shure:

And they're expecting greatness or they're expecting something conventional.

Nathan Shure:

And what we got was, I think.

Narrator:

You bring up a good point because I think maybe people brought too much expectation going into the theater, whereas I get the sense that both you and I went to see it, but without stakes.

Narrator:

We weren't.

Narrator:

I didn't go in there like, oh, this has to.

Narrator:

This movie better be incredible.

Narrator:

I just went in there blank, kind of like, hey, I'll watch it.

Narrator:

And then I was like, wow, that was fascinating and strange, but I had no, I wasn't like, and I love Francis Ford Coppola, but I didn't go into the movie being like, oh, my God, I hope this is as good as apocalypse now.

Narrator:

You know what I mean?

Narrator:

Because it's like, it's so different from anything he's done.

Nathan Shure:

I like the fact that this movie exists now because this is something I will watch again at some point because I am really fascinated and curious that this is now what appears to be a real work of art of something.

Nathan Shure:

It is like the modern art that sits in the middle of some gallery, and it's like, it's kind of beautiful, but it's also ugly, and you don't really quite know what to make of it.

Nathan Shure:

He has made something that is now part of this conversation that is not going to go away.

Nathan Shure:

And I think that may have been what the purpose of it was, because clearly, I don't think he ever, I think he knew this was never going to make money.

Nathan Shure:

When you spend $120 million at it, the math never, never made sense.

Nathan Shure:

I mean, nobody on his accounting team could have said that, you know, Frank, this.

Nathan Shure:

You know, you're not going to see a fraction of this money.

Nathan Shure:

I mean, there's no way.

Nathan Shure:

So he knew that this was, this is, this, this was it, this, this.

Nathan Shure:

The purpose of this was to create something, to give birth to whatever this piece of art was.

Nathan Shure:

And I think if people look at this as a piece of modern art and not a film, but just.

Nathan Shure:

He's trying to say something, I just don't know what.

Nathan Shure:

It might be staring right at us.

Nathan Shure:

But if we look at it that way as not a film but something else, then I think it's.

Nathan Shure:

I think it should be evaluated on those standards or those merits more than like, the $120 million film which all the trades and everybody on, on letterbox and the socials are doing, which is why has a D cinema score and it's getting raked through the press and stuff like that.

Nathan Shure:

Because I like it.

Nathan Shure:

That's how it should be looked at.

Nathan Shure:

And I think that's.

Nathan Shure:

I totally agree.

Nathan Shure:

I think that's what the intent was.

Nathan Shure:

And.

Nathan Shure:

But he can't say that because then if he says, well, it's not supposed to be a film, it's supposed to be this other thing.

Nathan Shure:

People can be like, well, you're crazy, you know, so that.

Nathan Shure:

That's where I'm.

Nathan Shure:

But I'm also trying to find my way into that and I need to see it again and maybe again, because there's something going on there that is not obvious.

Nathan Shure:

I need to explore some more.

Nathan Shure:

And that's.

Narrator:

I agree.

Narrator:

I say as.

Narrator:

As a piece of modern art, it is certainly worth, er, of an.

Narrator:

It is certainly worthy of analysis and further analysis, like, definitely.

Nathan Shure:

So anyway, so I'll get up.

Narrator:

Megalopolis.

Narrator:

Megalopolis.

Nathan Shure:

I'll get off my high horse, right.

Nathan Shure:

Because I just keep talking out of my ass, too.

Nathan Shure:

It might be an absolute piece of shit, too.

Nathan Shure:

It could be.

Narrator:

I don't know.

Narrator:

But I feel I'm on your page on this picture here.

Nathan Shure:

That is.

Nathan Shure:

That's all I have to say.

Nathan Shure:

So.

Nathan Shure:

Yeah, take, take from that, what you will.

Nathan Shure:

I just want to say, I know we've always had the two hour mark tonight.

Nathan Shure:

I just have to say one other thing and I don't have anything really prepared for this.

Nathan Shure:

I did see a movie over the weekend that I do think is a modern masterpiece.

Nathan Shure:

It's definitely going to probably crack my top five of the year.

Nathan Shure:

I saw the substance over the weekend.

Nathan Shure:

Oh, my.

Nathan Shure:

This is one the most unique films I've seen in years.

Nathan Shure:

This stars Demi Moore as an aging actress who takes this drug that changes her body.

Nathan Shure:

And I don't want to spoil too much about this, but if you are a fan of David Lynch, Nicholas Winding, refin and love body horror in your movie, please check out the substance.

Nathan Shure:

It's still in theaters.

Nathan Shure:

It's.

Nathan Shure:

It's starting to lose a couple screens right now.

Nathan Shure:

This is the greatest Demi Moore performance I've ever seen.

Nathan Shure:

And she's not really known for like, you know, being like, maybe the greatest actress of all time, but she is excellent in this film.

Nathan Shure:

Margaret Qualley also is in this as the younger version of Demi Moore.

Nathan Shure:

She was in a movie earlier this year which I didn't like that much.

Nathan Shure:

Drive away dolls.

Nathan Shure:

This is a much better film than that.

Nathan Shure:

But this is a really, really unique movie.

Nathan Shure:

It has a lot to say about what happens to women in the entertainment industry when they age out.

Nathan Shure:

And Demi Moore does some things in this that are questionable to try to turn her career around.

Nathan Shure:

But be warned, if body horror is not something you like, do not watch this.

Nathan Shure:

This is a hard r movie.

Nathan Shure:

It goes places.

Nathan Shure:

But it's a fascinating film that I recommend.

Nathan Shure:

If you wanna.

Nathan Shure:

If you want a wild ride.

Nathan Shure:

Yeah.

Narrator:

Interesting.

Narrator:

You assume it.

Narrator:

Like, at least five people in the past two weeks have been telling me, I have to see this.

Narrator:

Like, I've heard there's a buzz about this.

Nathan Shure:

It is.

Narrator:

I gotta.

Nathan Shure:

It is a little bit of Nicholas winding reference.

Nathan Shure:

It's a little bit of David.

Nathan Shure:

Definitely David Cronenberg type film.

Nathan Shure:

It is.

Nathan Shure:

It's pulling from so many of these, these things.

Nathan Shure:

So, yeah, I think that's our show tonight.

Nathan Shure:

Sam, I like your woos.

Nathan Shure:

Next.

Narrator:

We are.

Narrator:

Our show is exactly as long at this moment as life of PI.

Narrator:

An hour at 58.

Nathan Shure:

Oh, my God.

Nathan Shure:

So next week we continue with our gothic horror retrospective.

Nathan Shure:

ing to watch Angel Heart from:

Nathan Shure:

And who else is in that?

Nathan Shure:

Angel heart.

Nathan Shure:

Angel heart.

Nathan Shure:

And, oh, Mickey Rourke.

Nathan Shure:

Oh, young Mickey Rourke.

Nathan Shure:

Doesn't get any better.

Nathan Shure:

Doesn't get any better than that.

Nathan Shure:

Not, not like messed up.

Nathan Shure:

I got my face slammed by a tire iron.

Nathan Shure:

Mickey Rourke.

Nathan Shure:

Yeah.

Nathan Shure:

Lisa Benet, Charlotte ramping.

Nathan Shure:

Directed by Alan Parker.

Nathan Shure:

So this should be interesting.

Nathan Shure:

I haven't seen this in about 23 years.

Nathan Shure:

Sam, have you watched this film?

Narrator:

Film?

Narrator:

I've never seen the movie.

Narrator:

So I'm first time viewing.

Narrator:

So I'll have a.

Narrator:

That'd be, you know, first impression perspective.

Nathan Shure:

I would say listeners out there, if you want to follow along, it's available on Hoopla and canopy.

Nathan Shure:

If you don't know about Hoopla and canopy, get to know Hoopa and canopy.

Nathan Shure:

It's a free service through your local library where you can stream movies for free.

Nathan Shure:

And they have so many titles, both of those.

Nathan Shure:

So go to your local library.

Nathan Shure:

You can, you can get stream them for free or you can just rent it on Vod.

Nathan Shure:

That's Angel heart from:

Nathan Shure:

I'm looking forward to watching that again.

Nathan Shure:

It's been a long time.

Nathan Shure:

We get it's voodoo Sam.

Nathan Shure:

Voodoo.

Narrator:

Ah, my voodoo.

Narrator:

My go to not voodoo.

Nathan Shure:

We rent it.

Nathan Shure:

The voodoo magic.

Nathan Shure:

Voodoo magic.

Narrator:

I thought you were talking about the streaming service.

Nathan Shure:

Voodoo, voodoo, magic, magic, voodoo.

Narrator:

The streaming service is where my endless collection of home improvement exists.

Nathan Shure:

Okay, that is it.

Nathan Shure:

Back to the frame rate.

Nathan Shure:

As part of the Westin Media podcast network, we also wish to thank Brian Ellsworth for our show opening.

Nathan Shure:

On behalf of all of us, we bid you farewell from the fallout shelter.

Nathan Shure:

Your presence in our underground sanctuary is truly appreciated.

Nathan Shure:

We are truly sorry you cannot join us, but we want to express our gratitude for your company.

Nathan Shure:

If you are finding solace in our discussions, we kindly ask that you please subscribe and leave a rating and review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or whichever portal connects you to our broadcast.

Nathan Shure:

There you can find more episodes of this podcast and also on our website, backtotheframerate.com and on our socials with our handle back to the frame rate, which is.

Nathan Shure:

You can find that on Facebook, Instagram threads, YouTube, TikTok, and Twitter.

Nathan Shure:

Your support is the beacon of light that brightens our confined space.

Nathan Shure:

Until we emerge from the fallout, stay with us, keep hope alive, and keep those reviews coming and share our episodes with your friends.

Nathan Shure:

Most important, this is the end of our transmission.

Nathan Shure:

Back to the frame rate.

Nathan Shure:

Signing off.

Narrator:

Want you to know it's over.

Nathan Shure:

Well, bye.

Chapters

Video

More from YouTube