Pat Miller welcomes wedding and lifestyle photographer, Rhea Whitney, who unpacks the challenges of running a successful photography business. If you’ve ever felt overwhelmed by juggling your creative side with the demands of running a business, this conversation will change the way you approach both your craft and your company.

Episode Highlights 🎤💡:

(16:23) - Thought Work

(22:51) - Your Work is Worth It

(33:58) - Analyzing Demand

Connect with Pat Miller ⬇

LinkedIn | Website

Connect with Rhea Whitney ⬇

Website | Facebook

I'm Pat Miller, and this is The Professional Photographer Podcast. By now, you know that you watch this show so you can try and build a better photography business. And to build a business, you've gotta have one thing, revenue. Revenue comes when you sell the photos that you take, and then you back out all of the expenses, and then hopefully, there's some profit left over at the end so you can keep the lights on and you can eat. That's how business works. But what do you charge for the pictures that you take? What do you charge for the prints that you sell your clients? There is no international body that sets your rates. In theory, you could charge whatever you want. This picture could be $1,000,000 if you wanted it to be. So how do you go about setting the prices for your work? There are a million different theories, but on today's show, we're gonna dispel what the theories and we're gonna talk facts. Rhea Whitney is on this week's episode, and she coaches photographers on how to set their prices, how to grow their studios, and how to end up with money at the end of the month. If you wanna make more money, if you wanna grow your studio, if you wanna quit guessing about how to price your work, you're in the right place. We'll be back with Rhea Whitney in just a moment. Rhea, welcome to The Professional Photographer Podcast. How are you today?

Oh, I'm doing so well. Feeling good. Really, really excited for this conversation with you today, Pat. Thank you for having me.

I'm kinda scared about today's conversation because we're bringing up a really spicy topic. How come the concept of pricing is such a radioactive topic when it comes to photography?

You know, it is a spicy topic, and pricing is one of those subjects that photographers just, it really runs the gamut. And so I truly believe it has to do with people really understanding their worth and value in not only their time but also in what the service and the deliverables that we provide. Right? I know that like when I first started photography, going down this road of photography, I didn't know much about the professional world. Really, I didn't. And so I really had no idea about how much people charge, you know, for a photo session or for images. And I think that there's so many different pricing structures and so many different pieces of advice that people hear when it comes to pricing or that they see other photographers might see others doing that. It's just really confusing. So I think that you know, I think this conversation will be really good. Hopefully, it will clear up some of those levels of confusion that people have, and have people gain their confidence in how they go about charging and pricing their services.

Well, let's dig into it because I don't think I've ever met a small business owner that was more passionate about selling their product than the passion for producing their product.

Yeah.

So how do we overcome that mindset and get ourselves ready to make more sales?

Yeah. I think that, number 1, I think that it really is important that photographers are constantly developing as business owners. Right? Like putting themselves in conversations, in rooms, in programs, at conferences to learn more about the professional world of photography. Because I think that when you start to develop as a business owner, as the CEO, right? Of your business and brand, you really start to, like, get more insight into what it takes to run the business, and how to go about actually being profitable. I think that a lot of times, photographers that's not at the top of the mind necessarily. Right? Like the idea of profitability. And then also so when you think about that, taking into account how much things cost, their time, you know, all of those things. And I think that, you know, I think it's really about developing and continuing to really evolve as a business owner, a true entrepreneur.

And that's what makes it hard.

Yeah.

We don't go to the profit store and buy 1.2 units of profit or 8.6 hours of time.

Yeah.

But we go to the lab and we buy a print that has a dollar amount on it.

Yeah.

So we have to take the print that has a dollar amount and then this many units of our time and then this much profit that we'd like to make, and we mix it all up, so--

Yeah.

--let's start there. Let's talk about how do we set a price that rewards our hard work, helps us grow the studio, but still can be accepted by the ideal client.

Yeah. Yeah. No. I think starting there is really important. I think that, for me, what I teach a lot of my coaching clients and, like, what I do myself is get real and get into the numbers. Right? Get into the data, the actual data. How much does it cost you to run your business? Right? So from our equipment to different tools for post-production, editing, all the way to the gallery delivery and the products in which you sell, like really getting into that cost of doing business, really having a good idea of how much it's costing you to run your business. And then you kinda also think about your capacity in which you wanna shoot in, say, a month. Right? And I think that this really helps you set a foundation or fundamentals, fundamental foundation for pricing so that you can really come up with a pricing structure that's matched with hardcore numbers and data, so that you are not, you know, undercutting yourself and really not taking into account the expenses that it cost to keep the business going. So I think that that is the ground floor. Like, I tell people to start there. Know your cost of doing business, that monthly cost that it costs you, and then also consider the cost of goods that you're selling, whether it's products, whether, you know, wall art or albums or even digitals. Really, you know, kind of having a fundamental foundation there. I think that that's where everyone should start.

But that means we gotta know our numbers, Rhea.

Yeah.

I mean, come on. Really? Do we have to know our numbers?

I know. You know, honestly, photographers hate that part. The creatives in general, they hate it. They're like, please don't make me do it. I don't want to. It's overwhelming. I get a headache every time. But I think what happens is that when you don't know those numbers and you're really kinda arbitrarily picking out pricing, you're just, you're finding that it's not enough. Right? Like you're working almost for free or, you know, you're really not making that, you're not taking into account that profitability level. And I think that like, that's so important. And so, yeah, we do have to know those numbers. And I wanna say and encourage people that when you know your numbers, it also helps to provide you a level of assurance, helps you to provide you a level of, like, confidence, honestly, in how you go about pricing yourself and offering your services to others. Really knowing that, hey, I can't go any lower than this X, Y, Z, because of my desired profit, how much it's costing me to run the business, and the capacity in which I have in order to work with clients, you know, on a month in basis. And so if it's a confidence thing, the numbers really are gonna help you build that confidence in your pricing structure.

Now that's the overview. So if you clicked on this podcast thinking, I'm gonna get my prices straight, now would be the time that you get a notebook and you get a pen. I can see you get a notebook and a pen because we're gonna learn from Rhea. Let's build this price and our pricing strategy step by step.

Yeah.

In the big picture, do we begin with the final price that we think our customer will pay, or do we need to work through the numbers to keep the lights on and then add the profit, and then find the customers who will pay that number?

Yes. No. Totally work through the numbers. Don't pick a number that you believe that clients will pay. I think that one problem in that is that you are undervaluing and you're really pricing yourself from their pockets. And you have no idea, you know, truly how people value photography or being able to have these images and these memories. And so definitely start with your cost of doing business. Definitely go into like the capacity in which that you are able to shoot. And then also thinking about your profit number, right? So if you know you want to make, say, $5,000 a month, add that into your monthly like, add that into the equation, I like to say the equation, for coming up with your, you know, your pricing. It's part of it for sure.

So let's do that specifically about profit. We now know our costs. Yay. We know our costs.

Yes.

How much profit do we bake in per job? Do we say I wanna make about $5,000 a month, and this is how many average jobs so I'm gonna bake in this many dollars in each sale, or do we plus it up by a percentage? How would you recommend we go from costs plus profit to come out with a number?

You know, I think that it really, it takes time and everyone is different. But thinking about literally your capacity in each month, how if it's 4 weeks in a month, typically, you know, most people wanna shoot on a weekend. How often and how many clients can you realistically take in a month, right, before you reach the point of burnout. Right? And that is the other part of it. I think that a lot of times, we overestimate how much we can do in a month, as far as, like, clientele. And you do it, and you're burnt out because for everything that we shoot, right? We bring home and we have to do post-production work on it. Right? And so that is more time that's added to the session. So it's not really a 2-hour session that you're pricing yourself for. It's the 2 hours that you are at the session. It's the travel in which you go to the session, however long that takes you. It's the post-production after in order to get the session edited and sent over to the client. Whether if you do IPS, that might take a little bit more time. And it's really taken into account these other costs or other time variables that are really important that are going to help you kind of set that, set your pricing. So you have your cost of goods, your cost of business, cost of doing business, which includes your cost of goods being sold. Again, that's a print product. That's an album. Those are those, you know, tangible pieces that you deliver on. And then you also have your profit number. Right? You add those together, and then you would divide it. I would suggest that you divide it by the capacity in which you wanna shoot per month. And that is gonna give you a base rate. Right? A base. I call that base, meaning you can't go any lower than this. Right? When it comes to working with clients, working with, I don't know, let's say 8 clients a month, you can't go any lower, right? Now, you can go higher, and you can make packages that have all of it. I call it the kit and caboodle. It has everything that you know that they want, everything that you know that they need. It's like all the needs and wants all in one package. You can always go higher, but that base is the base based on those numbers and figures and this, you know, kinda pricing formula per se that I've, you know, kinda come up with that really helps it make pricing a little bit more easy. It has a basis, a fundamental basis of numbers, and the data just doesn't lie. So I think that that is really, really important.

That's really helpful. And I love the caboodle. You know what else I love is the whole enchilada. That is always.

It's the exactly. Like, the kit and caboodle, the whole enchilada, like, same, same, you know, like you can't. And I think that it is so, so smart and vital that photographers build the whole enchilada packages or the whole kit and caboodle packages. That is when we can get into a higher ticket service. That is when we can get into more of a white glove service. That's when we can really deliver our magic for, and give them everything that they want, everything that they need, and just like a well-rounded experience. And, you know, and so that's priceless. Like, it's really priceless. Right? Matched with them getting the images, which are just I mean, that is always the best part, but it's so much more than just the images in which, what we're delivering.

Now I wanna have a very specific talk--

Okay.

--to someone that's watching right now.

Okay.

And they don't have a good relationship with profit. They feel weird about boosting their expenses 4 or 5 times over their costs. They feel kind of uncomfortable profiting. Have you seen that before in your coaching, and what would you tell them?

Absolutely. I mean, I think I hate to say it, but you see it more often than not, especially for, with photographers that are just getting started or really haven't developed. Right? It goes back to that development of becoming a CEO, of becoming a business owner. But the truth of the matter is that we're here. You have a business that you want to make profitable. And when you're not thinking about profit in that manner, straight, clear, no chaser, you know, like, no fluff to it, you have to really, really, take into consideration your profit. So I love that you mentioned the 4 or 5 x markup for products as well, because I think I do see photographers struggle. They're like their mind is blown. They can't believe that they're supposed to charge that. But we are able to order these products from our vendors, as professionals, at a low cost. And it is essentially, you know, the work that we have to do in order to design the product and get the product uploaded and make sure the specs are right, and make sure that the final touches are all there. And then actually get the product to the client. Like, it is industry standard for that 4, 5 x markup on that product. Like, that is just industry standard. And when you are cutting yourself short of that, you're really doing a disservice to yourself and your business and the sustainability that you're trying to build, as a professional photographer, and in a sense to the industry as well, but it's more so hurting you than it is anyone else. Right? And so, yeah, I think that you know, you have to, you have to get serious, like either you want to be a hobbyist, you know, an amateur and just kind of not really concern yourself with profit, not really concern yourself with the ongoing, financial health of your business, or you have to say, hey, like I'm a business owner. I have this business, and businesses are, the point of business is to make profit. And it's not a bad thing. It's not a bad thing that I think that you have to really challenge your own mental thoughts and beliefs around feeling bad about it. It's not bad. It's actually still of service. And so many things that we do on a regular basis, people are profiting off of, but we don't necessarily think of it as bad. We think of it as helpful or, you know, time-saving or whatever it is. And so we have to really build that same mentality, that same mental fortitude, to believe that we are worth, being able to be profitable and worth being able to run a business that is sustainable and has good financial health, and, you know, that you're doing good service and that service is rendered you know, a lot of times it's an exchange of sorts, with money and it is not bad. It's okay. It's great actually. And I tell my people all the time, selling is service. Selling is just doing service to other people. And, we owe others that when it comes to our gifts and our talents and the things that we have been, you know, really blessed to have and, you know, give to others. So really challenge your thoughts and your beliefs. Do a lot of thought work. Develop, man, the development of a business owner, of a CEO, of you, the person, is just gonna take you so far in getting over that hurdle of feeling bad to run your business and keep it going.

Selling is service. That's on the top 40 chart of phrases on this show. Like, selling is service when you continue to remember that.

Yeah. It is. It is.

I love that. Alright. So we're putting our prices together. When do we worry about our competitors? Do we think about them at all when we set our prices?

Oh, man. Oh, this is such a great question because when I say that I've see so many photographers struggle with this. Right? I think that it is healthy to have an awareness of who your competitors are and how they go about pricing their services. I think that is healthy to a certain extent, but I do not believe that we should be so engulfed in their pricing structure and how they do things and that it throws us off in a tangent, and we feel like we have to copy what they're doing. I don't believe in that. Because the truth of the matter is that your competitors could be running a business that is not profitable. Your competitors could be doing, you know, like, I just think that you just never know what other people have going on inside of their business. And I tell my people all the time, with the mind, the business that pays us, like, with the mind, our own business. And, like, it is hard to not look left and right and wanna kinda copycat or do something similar. But I promise you, when you get into your own data, your own cost of doing business, your own profit desires for sales and profit that you have, right? That pricing justification that you come up with is gonna make you feel so much more confident than looking at a competitor and kinda trying to mirror what they're doing. Right? And so I think it's healthy to know your competitors. I think it's healthy in this form of knowing your competitive edge. Right? Like, what makes you what sets you apart from this competitor? What is your uniqueness, right, in the market in general? And just really locking in on your business, as opposed to being so engulfed and obsessed and, just like emotionally in the business of someone else. It just can drive you crazy, if I'm being honest. It can drive you crazy. Right? So know your competitors. Yes. Be aware, but you don't have to. I think that the best thing that you can do is get in your business is to really lock into your data, your numbers, your sales, your desires, your uniqueness, in the market, and really capitalize on that and utilize that when it comes to pricing yourself and marketing yourself and being different, kinda standing out to your ideal audience.

Yeah. If someone's been watching this, they're now pausing and unpausing because they're doing the work, which we highly recommend during this interview that you pause and unpause and do the work. And while they are doing that, they're now looking at prices that have doubled or tripled what they've been charging.

Yeah.

The instinct is to then think, oh, my goodness. I have to add a boatload of new stuff and new products and value add and justify my worth and blah blah blah. Or can we just, you know, raise our prices and just roll out the new price? How do you coach people through that?

Yeah. You know, I think that a lot of times what I find is that photographers, instead of trying to add more to the package, right? More on the deliverable side, more time, more outfits, more this, more that, I think we have to really learn to articulate our value in the value in which that we bring to every session just as is. Right? There is, when, I've mentioned priceless. Literally, the images that we create and capture, and deliver to clients literally becomes priceless in certain moments in life. Right? And we see it happen. I know I've seen it happen over the years. Someone passes away, something happens to someone, and all they have are those memories, these photos of the people in the room, of the people that they love, that they cherish the most. They don't remember how much they, you charge them. They don't remember the payment plan that they went on. They don't remember any of those things, but they have this tangible heirloom, this image that it can build on their legacy, that can comfort them in hard times, that can, you know, they can draw back on what happened at the shoot or what happened at the wedding or the, you know, the laughs that they had or whatever. You know, those images really become priceless. And so I would say that when you're at a point where you're like, I can't believe I have to raise my rates. Like, this is happening. Yes. It is happening. And I think what you need to do is learn how to articulate your value through what you provide, not adding more to the package, but just in how you provide the service, how you go about getting that final result that they want, how you make people feel comfortable. And then also really, you know, like, you also taking into account that it truly these images become priceless. Like, it is just there's something so special about what we do. And I think sometimes we can get so lost in the business of it all and the emotions of it all and the marketing and this and that, that we forget that magic of the actual wall art, the images, the albums, the galleries that we're giving to these families that we curate and capture and pour our time into. And I think, like, I just think it's important to learn how to articulate that. Well, before you can even articulate it, really believe it, feel it in your heart, feel it in your body, and then be able to articulate it. And you don't have to add all of these things to a package to make it a higher price point. Right? Like, I also would add that we're seeing it happen all around us. Inflation has hit everybody. Right? The grocery store isn't concerned about going up on the cost of eggs and how you feel about it and if people are gonna buy the eggs or not. Right? No. No. We don't sell eggs. Right? But it's somewhat like, there are still people that find so much value in what we do offer and what we do sell, and it is super valuable. So I just think that it's happening all around you, and we also, we just have to lean in and really know that you're worth it. You know? Your time is worth it. Your creative mind is worth it. The final images are worth it. How you make people feel is worth it. The memories that you capture, All of those things are worth the cost.

If you haven't raised your rates in the last 6 months, you're making less today than you did 6 months ago. We must raise our rates.

You have to. It's happening all around us. We feel it. We see it, and we have to really ride the wave with it. When other costs increase our, when our cost of doing business increases, which I know it has because I'm in business with you as well. We have to really mimic that in our own pricing, and follow, like, the trends that we're seeing when it comes to inflation and all of those things. Right? So, yeah, I agree.

When you're working with your coaching clients, do you believe in sales goals? Do you find them motivational?

Oh, my goodness. Absolutely. Like, my people will tell you, like, I really push them to make, we do a, I call it's like a good, better, best when it comes to sales goals. So we kinda do a range in which we set sales goals. We set these goals typically quarterly together, and then we track them each and every month. And I think sales goals are important because it give you a benchmark in which you're working towards. It kinda pushes you. Right? It pushes you to go the extra mile, to show up, to pitch yourself, to stand firm on your pricing. Right? Don't, you know, do it for lower just because, you know, you're scared of what nothing may come in in the next couple of days or whatever the thought process is. Right? So I think sales goals are so important. It's so funny you mentioned that. I actually had a coaching client, and she's just like, I hate setting sales goals. Like, I hate setting sales goals right. They I never feel like I reach them. It's just so pointless, but I'm like, no. I don't want you to think about that. I want you to think about how it can motivate and encourage you to show up and the strategies and the things that we can put in place to reach said sales goal. Right? And it gives us a really hard benchmark for being able to measure our, the effort in which we're putting in and measure, maybe strategies that we're trying with our marketing and our promotion, and really pay attention to what's working and what's not working and coming back to the playbook and figuring out another strategy or figuring out a way to pivot or to switch and, you know? So I think sales goals are so important. I would suggest maybe doing, like, a range. Maybe you, it makes you, you don't like the hard number, but you could do a range, like that good number, a better number, and then a best number. And, you know, see how that feels. But I think it's a great place for encouragement and motivation for the work that you're doing currently.

Not all studios have consistent revenue month to month. Some have strong seasonality, meaning it's really good half the year and not so good the other half of the year. Based on whatever specialty they may do. How do you help your clients and studio owners plan for the natural ebbs and flows based on what they do?

Yeah. Yeah. I think I help my clients do that by, again, really analyzing our sales goals and our sales pushes by the quarter. And so that we can be aware of, you know, the current climate that we're in or whatever is happening around us. So, for example, if we're in quarter 1, and quarter 1 is notoriously slower than the other quarters of the year, it's like a, for us photographers, it's typically a rev up, like a slow rev up. Quarter 1 is a little, like, kinda slows. Quarter 2 kinda picks up. It depends on your industry, but, or it depends on your niche or your specialty, shall I say. But what I tell them to do is, I also I make sure that we're building out like a well-rounded kind of marketing ecosystem. It's not just like one, you know, showing up in one place only. But, so in the slower seasons, we can work on automation. We can work on systems. We can continue to develop and get better and evaluate prior months or prior quarters and seeing what really worked. We can offer special promotions or, you know, there's all kinds of things that you can do to your email list or to your VIP, you know, past clients or all those things. And so I think that knowing that it is seasonal, knowing that our a lot of our business is seasonal, it helps us know what our focus, like, what you should focus on in each quarter. For example, like, for me, quarter 1 is really big on reevaluating, recalibrating, pouring into myself, the CEO, the person. And so I know that, like, I go into January, February, March, I'm looking forward to that. Right? Coming off of a busy quarter 4. And so I think it's just really important that photographers, you know, get real about their, the ebbs and flows of their business by looking at past data, just really understanding the environment in which they live in. It really depends on your city and, like, all of those things. And then knowing how you can take advantage of slower times because there's always work to be done. Like there's always something that you can improve on. And that's just like entrepreneurship, right? Like that's just what it takes to be a business owner. And so, yeah, to heed those, those seasonal changes, really in using it to your advantage to continue to develop and, to recalibrate yourself, and prepare for the next kind of level that you wanna reach.

I was gonna ask you a question about how do we ask for a big pile of money with a straight face. But I wanna ask you something different because I think it would be way more fun.

Okay.

You're the photographer. I'm the client. You have a package that's $1,000 that includes the session fee and an image. And I say to you, you know, Rhea, that's great. Love it. You can throw in 2 extra images. Right? How would you respond to that?

Ooh, that's a good one.

How because clients do that, and then we have to think like, okay, how do I tell them no without losing the business? Like, it's something we have to perfect, and sometimes we have to have it happen a few times before we get that answer down.

Yeah. Yeah.

How can we go about doing that in a way without alienating the client? Every instance is different. I understand that. But in general, oh, come on, Rhea. You can just throw in those 2 extra images.

Yeah. You know, I think that I would say, you know, unfortunately, I can't, and here's why. You know? There's studio cost. There's my time. There's all of these factors, right, that are real, real factors. I would say, however, if you're considering to get package A or package B that comes with 5 additional images, what I would be willing to do there is throw in additional 2, because then I can, you know, make some leeway for you. Like, I really value our relationship, and I'm loving the images that we produce, and I want you to have them. Like, I want you to be very clear, but at the same time, like, you know, everything kinda has, is properly priced, and set for a reason. So if we are able to maybe agree to go to package A or package B, then, yeah, I might be able to wiggle some things in there. I might be able to throw something in there for you as a nice gift. No problem.

I love that. I'm glad you love all the work. And behind door number 2, which is more expensive--

Yeah.

--Hey. You can get more of my work. Oh, I'd love that answer.

Yeah. Yeah. We can do, we can really figure out some things, but at that base, again, it goes back to that base. At this base rate, in which I'm giving you, it includes my time, it includes the studio, it includes the image, I'm unfortunately not able to wiggle on what has been set, but that's why I've created other packages. And I'll probably say, hey, and listen. I get it. Like, we can do a flexible payment plan. I have buy now, pay later options. You know? I wanna make this work for you. And just as much as you're loving the images, I want you to have them. Right? And so really, like, again, knowing how to sell, knowing how to kinda shift the conversation, and knowing and sticking to that base that you've come up with. And if you can't go any lower, you can't throw anything else in. That's just what it is. But I also sometimes kudos people for asking. Like, you don't get anything if you don't ask, but also it's up to us to, like, it's our choice to say, oh, unfortunately, I can't. It is, and that is okay. That does not mean that you're doing anything bad. Right? So, yeah, that's probably how I would go about that. I would try to get them to package B or package C or something, some type of upgrade. And then we can talk about throwing in some extras.

That's a pro-level answer to finesse their request for free stuff to spend more. That's just--

Yes.

--mwah, chef's kiss. Beautiful. Alright. Before we were about we run out of time.

Thank you. That was a hard one, Pat. That was, that's kinda I had to think about it. Like, what would I do? But that's actually exactly what I would do.

Well, we're here to get the good stuff, Rhea.

Yeah.

This isn't a patty cake show. We wanna help people grow their business. That's why you're here.

I love that.

So I needed to hear that from you. Okay. Before we run out of time, we talked about if you haven't raised your prices in the last 6 months, you're losing money. How frequently do you suggest that we are reviewing and probably raising our prices?

Oh, man. This is a really good question. I think that how I go about it with my coaching clients and in my business really is based off of demand. And so I don't know if it's like a frequency in, like, a number of months or whatever. I would say at the top of each year, you need, you probably, there absolutely need to be doing some reevaluation of what worked really good last year, what sold really good last year, and, like, you know, cost of doing business and just, like, really kinda getting a handle on what the goals for this year. I would say that. But I think that pricing, raising rates to me has to do with the demand and the momentum that you're having for said service. If you're finding yourself having to tell people, you know, put people on a waitlist or having to tell people that, you know, you don't have the time. It's another 3 to 6 months or something crazy like that. To me, that is a prime example of raising your rates. Like, you have probably a lot of leeway to increase your prices if people are busting down the doors in that way. And I've seen it. Right? Like, I've definitely seen that in my business. I've seen it. I've coached other people through that. Right? So I think raising your rates has to do with demand. Like when you have a pricing structure that's based on data, cost of doing business, sales goals, capacity, and then you're now you're at another place where, like, I think I need to raise rates. The first thing that I try to analyze is demand. Why do you feel like that? Like, what's happening? Are people constantly booking your highest package? Are people, are you trying, are you having to push people off for months and months and months because you just don't have the time and the capacity to work with them because you have so many clients? That is a high demand. That is what's happening is that you're having high demand, and that does equate to increasing prices. So that's how I look at it. And then, of course, like I said, at the top of the year, again, that quarter 1, depending on where you live, everybody's quarter 1 is not the same, but whatever time in the year that things kinda slow down, analyzing and reviewing, reevaluating, how things have gone in the past couple of months, and just kinda taking a data approach to if it's a good time to raise your rate. So, yeah, that's how I go about that conversation.

The mission of this show is to help professional photographers build a more resilient and growing photography studio. And this conversation today made people a big pile of money. Rhea Whitney, thank you for joining us in The Professional Photographer Podcast. I appreciate it.

Thank you so much for having me. This was so much fun. I love it. I love PPA and all of their, the mission and what they do. And so I'm just super happy to be on here. And as always, Pat, like, it was a great conversation. So thank you for having me.

That was so good. That was so good. You're so good. And I know I caught you off guard with the client question, but I knew you would kill it. I wanted to see a professional--

Yeah.

--react with the just like we all do.

Yeah. We do.

And then you then you killed it. Like, so I didn't ask you that in advance because I wanted to see you react like we all react, and then you had the answer straight away, which was just brilliant.

Yes. Thank you so much. I'm gonna take a little video.

Oh, yeah.

Pull out a video. This was good. This was good. I was a little nervous, so I was like, Rhea, like, we got this.

Of course, you've got this. My god. You're the expert.

You know how you just, like, kinda get, like, you know, it's like

I know.

You're like, ah, I hope I say everything right. You know, like, all of those things. But this was a great, you did a great job, Pat, in, like, keeping the flow and preparation. I just really appreciate you for that because I felt good. I felt like it was just a conversation and looked up, and 30 minutes have passed. And yes, so thank you for having me.

Oh, my gosh. It was my pleasure. And like I said, the show's about helping people make more money. And you said it earlier in the episode that creatives feel weird about making more money. And it's so heartbreaking because they take the image that grandma cherishes forever, and then they don't wanna get paid for it. It's the weirdest thing that happens all the time.

Yeah. Yeah. And I cannot tell you how many clients have come back to me, and they're like, the work is priceless. Like, I don't even remember I don't remember how much you charge, but whatever it was, it was, like, so worth it. And, like, you know, just years later, thanking me for being able to provide these memories and these images to them, especially when sad things happen. That is really it is it's something special about what we do, and I think that we just really have to tap into that as photographers because this is legacy building. You know? These are truly heirlooms that we get to pass on and to share with other people. So it's special. It's really special. It's hard, but it is special.

Well, it is hard because it still is small business. And that's the other thing we're trying to inject into the conversation is, it's not just pretty pictures.

Yeah.

You gotta run a business that takes pretty pictures, and I get to be the dork that shows up and talks about the business side of this beautiful craft.

I know.

So, we’re gonna talk about the business side so people earn the right to continue to take pictures. That's what we're trying to do.

Yes. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me.

Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of The Professional Photographer Podcast. I'm already looking forward to the next time we get together to talk about business. Now before you go, small favor. If you enjoyed the show, I wanna know what you loved about it. What did Rhea teach you that made you go, oh. Put that in the comment section. That will help me and the folks producing the show know what we should talk about in future episodes. Also, subscribe to the show wherever you are listening to it or watching it. That will help us find you with future episodes. Now one more thing, if you're not yet a member of Professional Photographers of America, uhh, hello? You're missing out. PPA offers incredible resources like equipment insurance, top-notch education, and a supportive community of photographers ready to help you succeed. It's perfect for photographers who are serious about growing their business in sustainable and profitable way. At PPA, you belong here. Discover more about membership at ppa.com. That's ppa.com. Again, I'm Pat Miller, founder of the Small Business Owners Community. Thanks for joining us on this journey. We appreciate your support, and we'll be back soon with more tools to help you build your business with The Professional Photographer Podcast. See you next time.