As I talk to my listeners about their journey from Hourly to Exit, I assume they will be building Intellectual Property (IP) assets to sell to clients and the public. Well, unless you figured out how to reinvent the wheel, you may be inspired by or even using materials that another expert in your field created. Giving that person credit and promoting their book is the right thing to do, but it may not be enough. You may need to ask for permission.

In this episode of Hourly to Exit, I cover some critical points about getting permission to use someone else’s copyrighted materials, including:

• Understanding the nature of the copyrighted material as an asset the owner can use for profit
• The process for securing permission, including finding the actual owner (hint, the author isn’t always the owner!).
• Why it’s essential to get permission in “writing,” which has specific formalities more complex than you’d think.
• BONUS: We take a brief detour into the fascinating world of filmmaking.

For any expert with a service-based business, it’s critical to build your reputation and your IP inventory on a solid foundation. Getting the correct permissions is an important step. If you aren’t sure about whether you can use something in your materials, contact me for a consultation.

Connect with Erin to learn how to use intellectual property to increase your income and impact. hourlytoexit.com/podcast.

Erin's LinkedIn Page: https://www.linkedin.com/in/erinaustin/

Think Beyond IP YouTube Page: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVztXnDYnZ83oIb-EGX9IGA/videos

Music credit: Yes She Can by Tiny Music

A Team Dklutr production

Hello ladies.

Welcome to this week's

episode of Hourly to Exit.

Today we're gonna talk about

what happens if you want to

use a thought leader's book

in your course or workshop.

Now, I've received this

question a few times

recently, so I wanted to.

Pop in and have a

conversation about that.

Now, for some of you, someone

has literally written the

book on the topic that

you wanna cover in your

course or workshop, so

it makes sense to you to

use, portions of the text.

Maybe there's some examples

in there, some insights

for you to put it on slides

or to incorporate it into

the accompanying workbook.

you would very happily give

the thought leader credit.

You would also encourage

everyone to buy the book since

you personally believe that it

is required reading for anyone

doing work in your space.

So that would be fair, right?

They'd get credit.

You'd encourage everyone

to buy the book.

Of course, I cannot

answer that for you

because that would be

giving you legal advice.

So whether or not you

can use someone else's

material without asking for

permission is fact specific.

By that, it means.

If and how you can use

somebody else's material

depends entirely on

the specific facts

related to your use.

So that can only be determined

on a one-on-one business after

looking at the totality of the

issues surrounding the use.

However, because it comes

up so often, I am going

to give you a mini lecture

and then I will talk about

how to get permission to

use a book in your course.

So I wanna start by

separating this use from

teachers in a classroom.

People will often refer

to their experience,

being in the classroom, at

college level, typically,

in academic setting.

And that, frequently they'll

get handouts that include,

other people's work.

So this does not apply to you.

This does not apply to your

expertise based business.

You are.

Leading workshops or

teaching courses for profit.

This is your business.

This is a commercial

use, not an academic

use or educational use.

So that, use by teachers

in the classroom is not

applicable to your use.

Secondly, I wanna make sure

that we don't ignore the

realness of the items that

you get off the internet.

intellectual property

rights are assets.

I know you know this 'cause

I'm always telling you.

but, Still, there's something

about being able to download

something off the internet,

without paying for it,

that somehow people aren't

completely understanding

the real, ability to possess

something that you can

download off the internet.

So intellectual property

rights, I mean, they

are real assets.

They are owned and registered.

They can be bought and sold.

They can be

licensed or loaned.

They can be divided.

They can even be inherited.

So in our particular

circumstance, when we're

talking about books, we're

talking about copyrights,

is the specific type of

intellectual property rights

that we're talking about.

So as a brief refresher,

copyright protection

grants, the owner, the

exclusive rights to do

all of the following.

To reproduce the work, i

e make copies to create

derivative works such

as, turning a book into

a movie, distribute

copies to the public.

That means like to

sell it to the public.

Perform the work, take

a play and it on stage.

Display the work publicly,

like artwork or transmit

the work publicly, such

as over the airwaves.

And you also have the

exclusive right to authorize

anyone else to exercise

any of those rights.

So that would be

such as a license, a

publishing agreement, a

distribution agreement.

intellectual property rights

that the copyright owner of

that book are just as much

of an asset to that owner as

their car or their house, they

have just as much right to the

exclusive use of their car.

Or their house as they

do to their intellectual

property rights.

So I want you to think

about the exception to

those exclusive rights as

narrowly as you think about

exceptions to exclusive

use of your property.

I mean, you don't think that,

I have exclusive use to my

property unless, I'm not gonna

notice that you're using it.

the exceptions to

use of your property.

I'm not talking about physical

property, would be, you know,

Emergencies or some sort of

legal action that results

in an IMiD domain .Process,

but you don't get to use

somebody else's property,

just because it'd be more

convenient or you don't get to

use somebody else's property

because they're out of town

and they'll never notice,

or you don't get to use the

property because, it's so

large that, know, if I just.

Go to the back of their

property and do some hunting.

No one's ever gonna notice

it's still their property.

They still have exclusive

rights about how that

property is used.

And the same thing applies to

intellectual property assets.

Someone owns the rights

to exploit it exclusively.

So I'm going to use this

as an opportunity to talk

about my parallels between,

inventory in the physical

sense of inventory, the kind

that you can put on financial

statement and the way I like

to talk about inventory in our

expertise based businesses.

So when we look at the.

Definition of inventory.

We have raw material, we

have works in progress,

and we have finished goods.

And by the way, I did

do a deep dive about

the parallels, about.

Taking inventory of our

intellectual property in

episode, 53 if you are

interested in, in finding out

more about that, conversation.

But to briefly recap

it, I talk about, the

raw materials in our

expertise based business.

Those are the foundational

parts of our expertise.

So those are original ideas

and the firsthand experiences

that we have, probably as an

employee, as we're growing

our area of expertise.

As we go out on our own,

the client work will

help build our expertise.

We might get certifications,

we'll do trainings,

continuing education.

Maybe we do our own research

and even the work that we

engage subcontractors to do.

' cause a lot of times we'll

have a subcontractor who knows

something better than we do,

'cause that's their expertise.

And so all these things

are the raw materials

that are the foundational

parts of our expertise.

And then we move on to

our works in progress.

So as we develop our

expertise, we start to notice

patterns and we start to

create internal resources

so we can be, more efficient

and more predictable

in the results that we

deliver to our clients.

So these are things

like our system and, and

processes, SOPs, templates,

frameworks, and methodologies

that we use internally.

Those are our

works in progress.

And then we have our

finished products.

When we develop our expertise

to the point that we're ready

to graduate from one-on-one

services to creating scalable

revenue streams, and we create

those finished products.

I look at that as our

finished product inventory.

So those are things that

we are selling externally,

like group training

and courses and books.

templates that we're selling

and when we're licensing

our expertise as well.

So from an inventory

perspective, the thought

leader's book, that is

her finished product.

It is the culmination of her

. Expertise and she's used

it to package it into a

new revenue stream that

she is selling for profit.

And so, It reminds me of the

Picasso example where we've

all heard this one where

someone comes up to him in

a restaurant and they ask

him to a drawing on a napkin

and he does a little drawing

and then he charges her, a

million bucks, I guess it is.

And like, why you just,

wrote that on a napkin.

Well, it's, the reason I was

able to do that is 'cause I

spent a lifetime perfecting

my craft, and that's what

thought leader's book is

a career of perfecting her

craft and putting it into

this finished product.

And so she's earned the

right to the exclusive

use of that product.

And that same book when it

is in your hands, is raw

material for your inventory.

It is something that

you are going to be

using as an influence.

or at literally an element

of your course or workshop.

So, whether we're using

it as an influence is a

separate conversation.

If you literally want to use

parts of her book in your

course or workshop, then that

is the same as, the steering

wheel in a car, like you don't

get to get the parts for your

finished product for free.

You do need to pay for that.

That is a cost of

doing business.

I don't think there is any

scenario where we would

think that if it was a

physical product that we

would be able to take someone

else's finished product.

So if I am a screw

manufacturer, screws are my

finished product and I make,

cars and I need their screw.

So their finished product

is my raw material.

I pay for that raw

material to include in

my finished product.

so, I want us to think about

other people's finished

products in the same way

when we are using them as raw

materials for our finished

products there's my lecture.

So think about, do you

really think it would be

reasonable to use somebody

else's finished product?

As raw materials for our

finished products and

generally, you know, I'm an

intellectual profit lawyer.

I am going to say what you

need to do for the most part,

and there will always be

exceptions, but for the most

part, you need to purchase the

right to acquire the right.

It may not cost you anything,

but it probably will acquire

the right to use somebody

else's finished product as

a raw material for yours.

So securing permission is

really the only way you can

ensure that the intended use

is not an infringement of

the copyright owner's rights.

I mentioned fair use briefly.

I never teach people

how to use fair use.

Fair use is a defense.

So, I will say, when I

was in the film business,

I, was a motion picture

lawyer for about 10 years,

and we would have to

make fair use judgements

as we were shooting.

let's say we're shooting

inside of a, grocery store,

and so your characters

are walking through the

aisles, you're not going

to clear every single, box

of cereal and, soda that

shows up on screen as your

characters walk through

the aisles, but you will.

So we would have to make fair

use judgements about, what was

on screen in the background.

What could we use?

I.

As a fair use and what

we would either need

to secure the rights

to use or to blur out.

Sometimes you shoot something

and then it comes out later.

We would do, this

is a little aside.

We would look at

dailies every day.

We would see what

was shot that day.

And as the production lawyer,

you had to look through the

dailies and make sure that

anything that appeared on

screen was cleared for use.

So if you, got the dailies,

you didn't know that they

were gonna do something,

that day, and then you

get the dailies like

what, the main characters.

stands right in front

of the cereal aisle and

clear as day, or, corn

Flakes and, Cheerios, and

they're having an argument.

even the context

sometimes mattered.

if something wonderful is

happening, then something

terrible is happening.

Like, eh, maybe you

have to blur it, you

and you can't use it.

All that to say is that,

once again, fair use,

extremely fact specific,

and it's something that

needs to be looked at

after you have all the

facts in place and you know

what's gonna happen there.

It's not something that

can be judged upfront.

All right.

So with that in mind,

if you're going to use

anybody else's materials,

anyone else's materials

in yours, then you

should secure permission.

So what's the

process for that?

First, you want to find out

is it in fact protected?

Now, if you're talking about

a current thought leader,

and I'm assuming these are.

Current thought leaders

books, then the likelihood

is extremely high that

book is eligible for

copyright protection.

But you know, as a formality,

we would confirm that,

maybe it's something from

before, like, I don't know

how long ago was, things

like, how to win friends

and influence people, like

maybe that was published

during a time when copyright

notices were required

and it didn't have one.

So back then, if you didn't,

literally didn't have that,

see in a circle and the formal

copyright notice on there,

you, it wouldn't be protected.

So maybe it's something

that slipped through

the cracks there.

Maybe it was published

so long ago that the.

period of protection has

passed and is now in the

public domain, or maybe

it falls into a category

of works that are not

copyrightable, like facts

or natural phenomenon.

so it's possible that, the

book or the portions of the

book that you wanna reproduce,

you, obviously you're not

copying the whole thing, but

that the portion of the book

that you want to reproduce

is not copyrightable.

but for the purposes of this

conversation, let's assume

that it is copyrightable

and is, protectable.

So now you may need

to identify the owner.

it could be as simple as

looking at the title page.

So the back of the title page

there will be the copyright

statement where it will say

who the copyright owner is.

that's typically found the

back of the copyright page.

However, that would state

who the copyright owner was

at the time of publication.

That can change a couple

of things could be that

either the writer who I'm

just gonna assume is the

thought leader is no longer

the copyright owner or never

was the copyright owner.

So let's say for instance,

the thought leader worked for.

I b m, maybe it was, I

can remember his name,

Jack Welsh gm, right?

So maybe when he wrote

a well-known book and

maybe when he wrote it,

it was in his role as c

e O of General Electric.

And General Electric actually

owns the copyright in

his book, not Jack Welsh.

that also may apply, that

maybe, I write a novel at, my.

Business is Aaron

oss la P e l c.

And someday, I sell it.

And then when I sell

my business, maybe I

also sell the work that

is the underlying, big

idea underneath the

business that I sell.

And so I also sell the

copyright in the book,

to the acquiring company.

So it could be that, the

book was written for somebody

else as a work for hire, or

it was sold in the interim.

Or I pass it on to my

son when it's time for

me to leave this realm.

So there are a number of

reasons why the copyright

owner listed in the

book may not, be the

current owner as the time

that you wanna use it.

Another way you can find

out is that you can go to

the us copyright has public

records, and now as you know,

not everything is always

registered, but if it's been

registered and that's been

up to date, you search it

by title and it will show

you who the copyright owner

is as of time of searching

based on the public records.

So we identify who the owner

is to the best of our ability.

And then we identify what

rights do we need, what

exactly do we wanna do

with the work that we get

from the thought leader?

So, You'll wanna identify

which material you wanna use.

And then you look at that

bundle of rights, that

compromise, copyrights, and

we talked about them before,

reproduction, distribution,

display performance.

And so which of those bundle

of rights do you need for

what you wanna do with it?

let's say you wanna be able

to make copies, probably

if you're gonna include

it in your workbooks, and

you're gonna distribute

that to the participants.

Maybe you wanna

create a derivative.

So maybe you wanna use

something that you found

in the book to create a

script for role-playing.

especially like, let's say

you're doing role-playing

in your workshop, and so

you're using that as a script

that's creating a derivative.

maybe you want to

distribute copies of it.

So if this is a course that

you're selling online, then

you would need the right

to distribute copies of it.

perform the work, display

the work, transmit the work.

or to authorize a third party

to do any of those things,

such as if you're creating a

workshop that you will license

to other people, then you

need to be able to, authorize

third parties to also make

copies, distribute, et cetera.

So what rights do you need?

And then you need to contact

that owner and you may need

to negotiate a payment.

Hopefully we've found

the correct owner and

we can contact them.

it may be that, yes, the

owner of the copyright is

still the thought leader, but

the thought leader Licensed

all of the rights to, give

permissions to the publisher.

So that's not at all unusual.

If you go the traditional

publisher route, you sign

a publishing deal, the

publisher gets exclusive

rights to distribute the

book, but it also gets what

are called ancillary rights,

which would include the

right to control, you who.

gets permission, and the

ability to license portions of

the book and charge a fee for

it, or just give permission,

for academic settings, that

will often be a right that's

granted to the publisher.

I.

So you may need to go to the

publisher for that, which

actually, frankly is simpler.

and, sometimes there will

be, directions right on the

copyright page about how

to contact the publisher to

get rights, cleared for use.

And there are also websites

that assist in this, one

of them, copyright.com.

It is a copyright clearance

marketplace where you

go in there and you

search for publications.

Let's say there's an article

in Forbes Magazine that you

wanna use and you can go in

there and, if the publication

or the publishing house has an

arrangement with the copyright

clearance, marketplace, then

it'll say right there, like,

you can license it for us.

it'll ask you like what the

use will be like, such as

business use, and they may

already have preset fees.

and it'll makes it.

Fairly simple.

If, you do have a third party,

clearance house that can help

you with that and then whether

or not there is a fee that

you might not wanna offer

one, but they may ask for one.

Right?

And then you want to get

the permission in writing.

the best case scenario is it

is original and ink signed.

By that I mean, wet signature.

Someone's literally printing

something out, using a pen

and signing it, and you get

a copy of that, original

ink signed, permission.

However, when we're talking

about using permissions in

our courses or workshops, we

are absolutely, asking to use

it on a non-exclusive basis.

where it's not a transfer of

ownership rights of any kind.

And so in writing

can be by email.

you can get non-exclusive

license to use copyrighted

materials without

it being in writing.

You can even get it orally.

I wouldn't recommend that

'cause you wanna definitely

have a written record.

so having it by email.

Would be sufficient.

However, I would say that

the bigger the investment

would be, the more formality

you wanna go through.

If you're asked to

pay a license fee,

that's substantial.

Obviously, you want to

have more formality than if

someone says, sure, go ahead.

If you're going to be making

a substantial investment in

resources, let's say you're

incorporating it into a book.

And then you're gonna go to

print with this book, and

so there's a big investment.

Then you absolutely have more

formalities if you're going to

making that kind of investment

something that you're

putting, in a digital course.

And not that you shouldn't

go through the formalities,

you should, but if you're

something that's going to

go into your course that

if something happened

and you had to take it

out, you don't have to.

get a second mortgage on your

house in order to do this.

Then the formalities

should be consistent with

the level of investment.

You whether or not you have

lawyers involved and have

things like that consistent

with the use, for that item.

So, what is the

written permission?

It can be pretty simple.

people think it's

gonna be a big deal.

It really is not.

Again, you could be

by email once you know

who you're asking.

You do wanna make sure you're

asking the right person.

it doesn't need to be a

long, complicated document.

Absolutely can be a

one pager if it's.

In writing, and by

then, I mean on paper.

but the minimums

are fairly simple.

you just wanna make sure

you have the following.

You wanna just say who

you are and what you do.

You wanna have an accurate but

brief, identification of what

material exactly you're using.

I wanna use the

graphic on page 25.

or I wanna use the entire,

chapter perhaps, And so

identify specifically what

you want to use, how you're

going to use the content.

I'm going to be using

this in my d e I training.

I'm gonna be using this

in an evergreen course.

I'm gonna be putting this

in my book, how you're

going to use the content,

and where you will use it,

you seminar, webinar, et

cetera, online, in person.

how you're gonna use it,

and then for how long you're

gonna use the content.

So how long you're gonna use

it is gonna be very different.

if you're giving a, a speech,

at a conference versus if

you're going to be creating

an evergreen course that's

gonna be available online

for, as long as the material

is useful and relevant.

and, know, whether or

not you offer payment

that will be your choice.

if you don't, and the rights

holder may request payment,

and that will be an analysis

for you to, understand the

value of having this material

included, against what

they're asking you to pay.

So it may turn out that

it doesn't make sense from

a financial perspective.

and if you do ask for it by

email and you do want the full

formalities, you can still

send it by email, ask them

to print it out, ask them to

sign it and return it to you.

and scanned copy

would be fine.

so long as it's not a

transfer of ownership,

in which case you'd want

an original copying.

All right, so, When you're,

creating a course using

somebody else's book, if you

do it without permission, it

could result in legal action.

worst case scenario of course

is someone be suing you.

Almost nobody starts there.

Almost everyone starts

with a cease and desist.

but that's not something

that you wanna have happen.

you will have invested.

Time and resources in

creating your workshop,

creating your course.

Before you put in those

investments, you wanna

make sure that you

have permission to use

everything that is in there.

And in addition to

losing those resources

that you've committed,

let's say you have to.

Claw it back from someone

that you've sold it to.

What if you have to tell

a client that you have,

let's say you've licensed

your workshop to them for

them to use throughout

their organization, and

now you have to retract

permission for that.

How mortifying would that be?

And so I just want you to,

take a conservative view

if you're going to use

somebody else's materials.

To make money for this to

be an important part of

your business, something

that you are selling to your

clients, something that you're

building your reputation on.

You want to make sure that you

have the rights to that and

that it's not going to be a

source of either legal risk or

reputational risk because you

haven't cleared those things.

So make sure you do that.

And, just one other thing

is that, if you're selling

the course on a third party

platform, they may have their

own requirements for you

to make statements about,

what you can put on there.

Um, cause they don't wanna

get involved with, take down

notices and things like that.

and so, Once again, making

sure that everything that

you, incorporate into

your courses, into your

workshops that you're gonna

be using to generate income

that they are cleared.

I hope this was

helpful to you.

I love your questions, so

please do not hesitate if

you have any and if you

have any questions that are

specific to your circumstance.

In other words, you

need some legal advice,

book an errand call.

I look forward to

hearing from you.