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The Innuendo of Happiness: Why Success Doesn’t Feel Like Enough
Episode 40 • 26th March 2026 • Tracking Wisdom • Ears That Hear Media Corporation
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Peter:

You are listening to the Tracking Wisdom Podcast, exploring the universal

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truths that we see woven through culture,

consciousness, and the human experience.

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Ryan: Good morning everybody, and

welcome back to another episode

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of the Tracking Wisdom Podcast.

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I'm Ryan,

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Peter: I'm Peter,

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Ryan: and today we are discussing,

neuroscientist Marjorie Woollacott PhD.

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we came across her from another

episode from the Essentia

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Foundation, which I recommend you

follow and consume their content.

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Their interviews are quite

good, and their guest list is.

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Extensive and interesting.

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this video we are not necessarily gonna

speak on line by line or topic by topic,

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but the, commentary comes from a video

that is called New Evidence for Out of

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Body Experience and Perennial Wisdom.

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we will of course link this video

in the, description or chat.

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But Marjorie Wilcott is Emeritus,

professor of Human Psychology, emeritus

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Professor of Human Physiology and

member of the Institute of Neuroscience

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at the University of Oregon.

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And she was also chair of the Human

Physiology Department for seven years.

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In addition to that, she teaches Courses

on neuroscience and rehabilitation.

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and alternative medicine and meditation.

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And so this neuroscientist,

she, as far as a little bit of

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background and context, was a,

institutionally taught and successful

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neuroscientist and stout materialist.

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And her experience was an invitation to a

meditation that she was skeptical about.

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At least that's how

she seemed to frame it.

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It was open-minded, but didn't

seem fully on board and.

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Had the experience of overwhelming

openness and love and oneness.

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And some of this may be my own

language around her experience, but

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basically, I mean, she describes

it as an awakening experience.

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the point was that immediately

following that her, worldview

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changed around fundamental reality

and the nature of consciousness

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and the nature of consciousness as

fundamental and material emerging out

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of, or as a result of consciousness

as opposed to the materialist, view.

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Working sort of converse to that.

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With that, the first thing that came

to mind for me is this recurring theme,

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which we had talked about on a previous

episode of esteemed scientists who come

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into contact with the mystical experience

and then are immediately drawn to how to

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describe it and use the scientific method

to explain this experience of which they

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have intuitive understanding and knowledge

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Peter: And, and it draws them into

consciousness research and the.

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Non materialist perspective.

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Right.

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so one thing that's interesting

is, in her book list is a book of

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experiences of 20 some scientists,

describing their awakening experiences.

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Yes.

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Ryan: It's called Spiritual

Awakenings: Scientists and Academics

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Describe Their Experiences, so she

had this PhD in neuroscience and

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was an established neuroscientist.

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And then after having this

experience, and at some point on

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sabbatical, she did Asian studies.

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So that's back in 2000 when she

was on sabbatical and she came

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into contact with Kasmiri shivism.

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Which is a non-dual Hindu

offshoot or philosophy, from

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the Kashmir, area of India.

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One of the core teachings of

Kashmiri Shaivism is, is the.

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Fundamental nature of consciousness.

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And that seemed to be something

that was, that struck her.

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And obviously strikes a chord

with our worldview as well.

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she had this anecdote about

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her and also other, she mentioned

Faggin, who we spoke about mm-hmm.

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In the last episode, that by all

accounts of the material paradigm,

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they had achieved the success.

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Yes.

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And and basically done

all the right things.

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To air quotes, be happy or find happiness.

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And what she found, and she

related, Faggin had a similar

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experience that they weren't happy.

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They, had this success and they had the

credential and they felt like they did all

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the right things, the air quotes Right.

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Things.

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And yet they were finding

that they were not happy.

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Peter: Yeah.

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So, it's a very small part of the video

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But it's a very central

message To the video.

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as we were kind of discussing how we were

approaching this, we were noticing that

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the beginning and the end of the video.

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Really contain the core message and

all of the rest is a lot of interesting

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technical detail of how she comes

to these realizations and how you

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might like the, the evidence of the

near death experience is kind of like

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convincing that, consciousness is

independent of brain activity, right?

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Quite convincing.

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and it seems to be on the surface of it,

that seems to be the point of the video.

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But then as we discussed it, that's

not the point of the video, right?

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Mm-hmm.

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, The point of the video is how to be happy.

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it's just kind of packaged

in, basically a materialist.

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Context of, of, supporting , the

consciousness, first paradigm.

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Right?

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Right.

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So it's kind of this intellectual

discussion of all that.

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But for me, the takeaway is this

identification or discussion

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of the nature of happiness.

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Right.

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Because she starts out saying, this

is what is not the path to happiness.

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Yep.

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Which is what we're taught.

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And then at the end she kinda says,

this is what happiness is like.

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Right.

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, Well, okay, so I said, this

is what happiness is like.

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And I think really the way she

would might describe it is.

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This is what awakening is like

or being awake is like mm-hmm.

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In terms of that optical illusion

metaphor that she brings at the end.

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now, what I just did was I

equated awakening with happiness.

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Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

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Peter: And so this is another

thing that we had touched on

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before coming into this, was our

relationship to the word happiness.

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Yeah.

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And you were saying that you're not

actually very comfortable with the word

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happiness and I find myself more and

more comfortable with the word happiness

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Or the idea of happiness.

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so yeah, I guess I kind of want to go

there and, and, and one of the questions I

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also had though around this very initial.

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Thing that she introduces and that, and

that you're pulling outta this, you know,

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that we're doing all the right things.

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Speaker 3: Mm.

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Peter: It's like, well, where's

that, where are those messages?

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Right?

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Like, where is it called?

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The right thing.

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And so I was thinking about this a

little bit, and certainly for me,

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and I imagine for most people, a

lot of it's from parents because

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parents want you to be happy, right?

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I mean, parents are pushing you in certain

directions to the extent that they push

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you, because they want you to be happy.

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And often to the extent

that they don't push you.

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It's because they want you to be happy.

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Like, well, my parents pushed me,

it was horrible and I don't like it,

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and so I'm not gonna push my kids.

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which is kind of where I am.

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so part of the message is from parents.

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It's like, well, you wanna

be sure to get a good job.

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You know why?

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Well, we want you to be happy.

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We want you to be successful.

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We want you to be successful

because we want you to be happy.

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So it's all tied to this accomplishment.

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I think it's really, really common

, in many cultures, for parents

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to attach happiness to success.

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In your culture.

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Which means having a position of

respect in your culture and, other

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aspects of success, whatever success

means, and very often it means material

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acquisition and materialistic success.

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Mm-hmm.

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having a job that pays well.

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. And that.

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Carries clout and respect

and social standing.

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And then if you have all those things,

you're more likely to be happy.

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That's the message.

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Not that it's gonna make you happy, but if

you don't have those things, you are gonna

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be much more at risk for unhappiness.

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'cause you're gonna have

all these problems and those

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problems will make you unhappy.

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And I think that's the

general parental message.

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And then of course, that's the general

message of the educational system is,

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well, you wanna do these things so

that you can take the next step, right?

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You're gonna get out of high school

and you're going to go to college.

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Or if you're not in a college track,

they're still orienting you towards,

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well, you're not college bound and

that's okay, but you're gonna have.

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This trade, are you gonna have

this way of being successful?

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Mm-hmm.

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And that's what we're preparing you.

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Mm-hmm.

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We're preparing you.

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Right.

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All schools do that.

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Mm-hmm.

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And then colleges do that too.

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We're preparing you for success.

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Why?

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Right.

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Because that's how you can be happy.

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Because if you're not successful,

you're not gonna be happy.

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I mean, that's the subtext

of all of this messaging.

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And I think the confusing

thing is it's not explicit.

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Like no one is willing to say,

here's how you're gonna be happy.

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It's all implied.

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It's all innuendo.

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The innuendo of happiness.

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And then of course, I like that

we're gonna write a book on that.

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And then of course, um, surrounding

all that, like you're embedded in this

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culture of commercial materialism.

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there's all that media messaging around.

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These people are happier.

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Look at all these people.

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Let's, idolize, promote,

focus on all these people who

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they're happier than you are.

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Right?

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Why?

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Because they're more successful, they're

more attractive, they're more famous.

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They're more like all these reasons.

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And why are they important?

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Because they're happier than you are.

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Or at the very least, they're more

successful than you are, and therefore,

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more likely to be happier, they have

more access to happiness than you do.

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Because look at all these images

of them having a good time.

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and these may be real people.

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they may be fantasies of commercials.

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Right?

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Or fantasies of fiction and media.

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But regardless, that's the messaging.

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and then there's some messaging, there's

some counterculture messaging of, well,

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here's some people who are dropouts

and they're brilliant and they're

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adventurers and they, you know, they're

mavericks and they, they don't have

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any regard for society, but they're

adventurous and they're this and that.

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Okay.

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And they're gonna be happy.

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Right.

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And so all these weird messages

about happiness that we have.

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So I was just trying to explore

in my mind a little bit.

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Like, okay.

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Where for me, that's what

messaging around happiness is.

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And then of course you can

go down the religious road

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too, which we've done plenty.

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So now I wanna come back to you

because of your comment About that.

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So, yeah.

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So what's that about?

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Ryan: so this has been a recurring

friction or resistance in myself over

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the course of our discussions, and

not exclusive to our discussions,

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but happiness is a term that you've

used frequently, and it's a term that

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many people use, as a noun and also

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the pursuit of, The Journey

towards happiness and the

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goal and pursuit of happiness.

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And my recognition of my own resistance

to this as a term is only more recent.

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since we've been talking more about it,

and I raised it because she mentions

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specifically this concept of happiness.

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The pursuit of happiness in the beginning,

in the context of the materialist paradigm

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of happiness, which as you said , it's

implicit, , it's extremely pervasive.

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Peter: success is

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Ryan: Yeah.

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even if the explicit language is

success doesn't equal happiness.

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It's still mm-hmm.

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the message.

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Right.

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It's weird the way that happens.

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Peter: it's like the comedy

bit of the person saying Yes.

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And shaking their head no.

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Right.

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Exactly.

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Yeah.

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Ryan: And so I recognize that I

have this resistance to the term

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happiness, and it's curious to me.

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And so I took note of it for us to

have a little discussion around it.

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Not that I have an

answer, I don't know why.

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Although I'm starting to intuit, maybe

I relate the term happiness to this

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conventional understanding of happiness.

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And so when people say, I

want to be happy, I don't

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think that's what they want.

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And while happiness, I think is a

byproduct of what I think people want.

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Our understanding of what happiness

is, is skewed and distorted.

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Peter: A a and, and by contrast,

I feel quite strongly about it

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and quite comfortable with it.

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Right.

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And I, and I think I see hearing you talk

and having had so many conversations along

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these lines, I think I, I, I definitely

can speculate as to what the difference is

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between your perception and my perception.

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And I would attribute it to our

different relationships to coming into

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contact with fundamental wellbeing.

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where for you, fundamental wellbeing

as a familiar baseline creates

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a kind of hard act to follow.

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Mm.

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Mm-hmm.

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And so, Whereas for me, I think

I have a much, clearer perception

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of the difference right.

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Between unhappiness and happiness

and, and because I know life was

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like for me three years ago And

I know what it's like for me now.

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Right.

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And so to me, that's gone.

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That's like, oh, now I'm happy.

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That's very clear.

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and the way I would describe it

and, and, and I guess here's,

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here's where I can understand the

problem with the word happiness.

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because even.

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Talking to people with

non-dual experience?

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Well, particularly talking to

people with non-dual experience.

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Right.

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, I think there's a tendency for them

to be resistant to the term happiness.

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I think even my mentor said something

about fundamental wellbeing or,

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open awareness or whatever we're

gonna call that thing, that it's

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not really happy, it's peaceful.

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Ryan: So that's what I wrote 'cause

I've raised this distinction to you

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before where I've said I don't think

it's happiness that people want.

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It's peace and contentment.

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And you're like, yeah, that's happiness.

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Peter: But now I have a very

specific insight to that.

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Yeah.

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which is, from, Dick Schwartz

and, IFS internal Family Systems.

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He has the eight Cs, calm, connected,

compassionate, courageous, clear,

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curious, confident, creative.

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And these are the characteristics

of what, he calls true self.

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But he's also pretty clear that it's

what people might call the divine, or

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what we would call fundamental wellbeing.

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and none of these say happy.

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Right?

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Right.

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and I think my experiences that, alright,

so I was, I was having an experience

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on the beach, just sinking and feeling

good and thinking about what my mentor

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said of like, oh, it's really not

happiness, it's, it's more contentment.

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Right?

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And I realize, well, what's going on here?

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Why do I have this excitement, this.

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Energetic positive feeling mm-hmm.

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That I call happiness.

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Like, God dammit, I feel happy.

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I don't know what you're talking about.

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Like, it's not ha like I feel happy

and I, I looked at the way I was

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experiencing it and it's like, I

think happiness is the ego coming into

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contact with fundamental wellbeing.

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If you are completely away

from your ego, then I think you

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don't have a sense of happiness.

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Okay.

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I think you can have love,

compassion, joy and equanimity, which

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I'm pulling from, from Buddhism.

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But to me those are the characteristics

of fundamental wellbeing.

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as well as the eight Cs of Schwartz.

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but again, none of the,

I mean, joy is kind of.

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There's a happiness to it,

but it's kind of not the same.

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I think they're different.

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There's a Yeah.

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'cause when I am like sinking in

deeply, I'm aware of a joy that's

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not what I would call happiness.

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But when I allow my ego to resurface

out of that, that's, that's where it is.

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So I think

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you have to be more in touch with

an ego identity than, a lot of

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people in non-dual experience.

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Yeah.

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where it's like, yeah, I

don't care about happiness.

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Right.

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Happiness isn't real.

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This isn't real.

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And there's That depth of

non-duality where you lose

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that experience of happiness.

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'cause you're so far below

the surface of experience.

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Hmm.

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You're not at surface experience anymore.

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You're deep in awareness.

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Right.

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you're below the, the surface of senses.

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Right.

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So I think happiness, I, I think what

I experience is that happiness is tied

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to connection to the senses and to the

ego, which is to say the material world.

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Mm-hmm.

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Right.

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And I think, so happiness is the result

of integration of consciousness with.

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Material experience or ego experience.

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Okay.

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Of this open awareness, non-ego,

maybe non-dual experience, if

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you call it that, merged with the

ego experience and it's, yeah.

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Does that, does that make sense?

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Ryan: I think it does.

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I think it also highlights where

the resistance kind of comes from.

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One thing you did describe, which is

a characteristic I associate with the

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term happiness, which is excitement.

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I think that's what people

perceive happiness to be.

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. . Like when I'm excited,

I'm happy kind of thing.

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And I don't think that's

true, but I think.

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Many people think of happiness , as

that being exciting feeling

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Peter: of

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Ryan: being excited.

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Peter: And I think it's

a cultural bias maybe.

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Right.

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Definitely.

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I would agree with you in our culture.

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Sure.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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That's fair.

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Like, oh, peacefulness is boring.

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Right, right.

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That's not happiness.

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I mean, of course there are many

people who are looking for peace.

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And they think, I mean, and, and they

would say that would bring me happiness.

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Right, right.

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But that's not typical in our culture.

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Right.

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I think what you're saying is more typical

in our culture that there's this idea

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of, and again, it's cultural imagery.

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Speaker 3: Sure.

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People

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Peter: doing exciting things and

smiling and being together with.

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romantic.

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Context and, or, or potential

romantic context, right?

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Like, you know, you're at a party,

you're at a bar, you're members of,

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you know, sexually attractive people,

whoever's sexually attractive to you.

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like, that's how you

portray happiness in media.

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Ryan: I think fun comes along

with the idea of happiness,

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at least in our culture.

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Sure.

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I mean, , I'm acknowledging that my

perspective comes almost exclusively from

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my experience in our American culture.

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Right?

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Right.

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but fun is, I think,

associated with happiness.

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And I think that, number one, I

agree and I have said before, I

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think Joy has a different qualitative

state than happiness as a term.

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In my own perception, joy

is different than happiness.

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Peter: Mm-hmm.

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Ryan: And I'm much more comfortable

with the term joy, peace,

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contentment, all these things.

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Now you mentioned, you

know, the non dualist

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sort of worldview from a

disconnection, from ego identity.

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But I feel like this is the

way I experience things.

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I don't qualify the things that

I experience as happiness, and I

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also don't think that I'm deep into

non-dual, you know what I mean?

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Peter: Yeah.

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so here's another thing that comes to

me is that happiness is conditional.

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Mm-hmm.

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Happiness is tied to conditions.

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Mm-hmm.

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And I would say that from my

experience, like I am happy

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in these conditions, right?

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like, I love my conditions right now.

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Mm-hmm.

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but that's why, and that's I

think is the same as saying it's.

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Ego based.

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Right.

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whereas Joy, which you're more

comfortable with, is unconditional.

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Right.

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joy is something that comes to us in,

it's a characteristic of sinking in.

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Yeah.

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yeah, unconditional joy is just a

thing that we talk about in these

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circles of awakening experience.

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Right.

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:

we might say, oh, I see this and

joy arises, but it's different.

425

:

It's a correlation not causation.

426

:

Mm-hmm.

427

:

Right?

428

:

Yes.

429

:

Yeah.

430

:

it's not a causal thing.

431

:

Right, So joy versus happiness.

432

:

I'm really convinced that

has a lot to do with ego.

433

:

Ryan: Mm-hmm.

434

:

Yeah.

435

:

It, I agree.

436

:

Peter: It has to do with, conditioned

experience, which is not terrible.

437

:

Right.

438

:

It's just, it's not everything.

439

:

And that's the problem with it is

our relationship with conditions

440

:

saying that it's, I mean, that's

the materialist view, right?

441

:

I mean, literally it's what,

what, what is material?

442

:

E existence.

443

:

What is space time?

444

:

It's conditions.

445

:

Yeah.

446

:

and being tied to that

is contrary to what?

447

:

Contrary to, to na true nature.

448

:

Right.

449

:

but it doesn't mean,

450

:

it doesn't mean that you

can never be happy in it.

451

:

And maybe in a sense you

can only be happy in it.

452

:

It's just you shouldn't be fooled

that it is the source of happiness

453

:

or that it is permanent happiness.

454

:

Hmm.

455

:

because I think, well, I

think you can't be happy in it

456

:

without including true nature.

457

:

I think that's okay.

458

:

That's the problem is the tendency

to deny true nature or neglect true

459

:

nature, and then seek cap happiness

and conditions and you won't.

460

:

Right.

461

:

I think It's the meeting of the

two that creates what we would call

462

:

happiness, what we would recognize as

happiness, as like a true happiness.

463

:

True happiness.

464

:

And then is the meaning these

other things would be the

465

:

Ryan: conditions of material with

the fundamental nature of true self?

466

:

Peter: Yes.

467

:

And I think without that contact.

468

:

Then you end up with this

superficial happiness Of

469

:

materialism, which is so familiar.

470

:

And so unsatisfying

471

:

Ryan: So, is it just a

terminology thing ? I agree.

472

:

. I think with what you're saying,

and yet I still have this resistance

473

:

to using the term happiness.

474

:

Even if we define happiness as what you're

saying, I almost feel like we're forcing

475

:

a term into something that it isn't.

476

:

Like, is there a difference between

happiness and peace and contentment?

477

:

And I guess it sounds like you're saying

there is because there's the egos,

478

:

, Peter: You know, the way I

described it was the dog reaction.

479

:

It's this jumping tail wagging Yeah.

480

:

Tongue wagging Yes.

481

:

Energy.

482

:

Yes.

483

:

And that's the way I felt on the beach.

484

:

I was like lying there quietly,

really looking at the sky.

485

:

I'm like, oh my God, this

is so exciting to be okay.

486

:

Peaceful.

487

:

okay.

488

:

It was very exciting to be peaceful.

489

:

So that is different.

490

:

Yes, it is different.

491

:

And that's why, that's why I feel,

I, I feel quite, I mean, I'm talking

492

:

about my own experience, of course I'm

not saying this for anybody else, but

493

:

for me, I feel completely confident in

saying, this is what happiness is to me.

494

:

And you think that that

495

:

Ryan: is the pursuit.

496

:

Or do you think that's just symptomatic

of achieving the true pursuit?

497

:

Peter: Now I don't know, because

I mean, I'm talking about, I'm

498

:

talking about an experience.

499

:

I don't know what a pursuit is.

500

:

No,

501

:

Ryan: no.

502

:

Well, do I wish someone

503

:

Peter: had told me to

504

:

Ryan: pursue this?

505

:

No.

506

:

No, no.

507

:

That's not, that's not what I mean.

508

:

I mean, when we say things like, I want to

be happy or I'm, I'm looking to be happy,

509

:

that is what I mean by like the pursuit.

510

:

And what I think people mean by that is I

want to experience peace and contentment.

511

:

Not that they want to

experience happiness, but that

512

:

happiness can be a byproduct of

513

:

achieving peace and contentment.

514

:

Yeah, that you don't, you don't

pursue happiness, you pursue peace

515

:

and contentment, and from there you

may like what you're describing.

516

:

I don't experience very often, if

at all, and in fact, I don't like

517

:

that kind of excitement when I

feel it, I have said this before.

518

:

Mm-hmm.

519

:

When I feel that It comes off as

an anxiety, that kind of mm-hmm.

520

:

Stimulus makes me

521

:

Peter: uncomfortable and, and I

can speculate as to why that is.

522

:

Why because there's a recognition

of the impermanence of it.

523

:

That makes you anxious,

that makes you anxious.

524

:

It just gave me chills.

525

:

and so I, I was gonna elaborate a

little bit on, because I, you know, I

526

:

was saying, oh, I love my conditions.

527

:

I, you know, it's not perfect.

528

:

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

529

:

Peter: Like, I have some challenges.

530

:

I'm dealing with, some concerns and a lot

of imperfections going on in my situation.

531

:

I also have a lot of great advantages

and great, like, positive conditions

532

:

going on, but it's not perfect.

533

:

Right?

534

:

But the thing is, I'm able to

recognize the imperfection without

535

:

attributing any significance to it.

536

:

And yet.

537

:

I definitely have a sense of ego.

538

:

I definitely have a sense of, I mean,

it's not just pure presence, it's not

539

:

just, it's not just peace and contentment.

540

:

Ryan: Right.

541

:

Peter: Right.

542

:

There's an appreciation of having

been outside of peace and contentment.

543

:

Sure.

544

:

And, and I think that's, for me,

a big piece of the difference.

545

:

the other thing is pursuing

peace and contentment.

546

:

That.

547

:

Doesn't resonate with me.

548

:

And I think that what would often

happen with pursuing peace and

549

:

contentment and succeeding is

that you end up dropping ego.

550

:

And then having peace and contentment

and not experiencing happiness.

551

:

it's almost like, closer

to Nirvana extinction.

552

:

Mm-hmm.

553

:

Right.

554

:

Of loss of ego, loss of the suffering

of ego, and then peace and contentment.

555

:

And that's where you are.

556

:

And there may be joy arising, but it's

not what you would recognize as happiness.

557

:

Right.

558

:

Right.

559

:

And you wouldn't talk about it

the way I'm talking about it.

560

:

Like I, I, I, I'm enjoying this.

561

:

This is like, I like this because

there's too much detachment, right?

562

:

Mm-hmm.

563

:

It's like, this is

fine, this is permanent.

564

:

This is true.

565

:

This is the way it is and it's got

all this other stuff like confidence.

566

:

And I can see all these other aspects

to it, but I think without the,

567

:

God, I'm, the more I say this, the

more I'm convinced of it without

568

:

some, I , I wanna say involvement

of ego, like a definite contact

569

:

of, a healthy dose of ego.

570

:

Okay.

571

:

You know, that's not, it's not

ego, it's not the unhealthy

572

:

ego where the ego is saying.

573

:

I'm all there is.

574

:

Mm-hmm.

575

:

And it was just pulls me back to,

McGilchrist's, two hemisphere.

576

:

Yep.

577

:

Brain thing of the left brain.

578

:

Just saying

579

:

that this is all there is,

580

:

logic is the only thing that's valid.

581

:

this is the only reality.

582

:

You know, I've got my words, I've got

my analysis, and I can, do this science

583

:

and see these things and this is it.

584

:

and everything that I say is true and,

everything that I know is all that exists.

585

:

Mm-hmm.

586

:

That's ego.

587

:

Ego.

588

:

Right.

589

:

Right.

590

:

And then, the right hemisphere can

come in and say, ah, just that.

591

:

Ryan: So the one experience that I was

thinking was skiing, I've mentioned many

592

:

times before my affinity with skiing.

593

:

It's, I guess, one of the purest

activities that I participate in,

594

:

but it's very in the moment, which is

obviously lovely as well because you're

595

:

extremely present in that moment.

596

:

Mm-hmm.

597

:

there is an energy and an excitement that

isn't unpleasant for me, especially at

598

:

speed, which is the way I like to ski.

599

:

Mm-hmm.

600

:

but as we were talking and I was

thinking about it, I still think that

601

:

it, it's more in line with joy mm-hmm.

602

:

Than happiness.

603

:

Mm-hmm.

604

:

But less so peace.

605

:

'cause there's mm-hmm.

606

:

There's an activity going on.

607

:

Mm-hmm.

608

:

There.

609

:

Um, so am I happy when I'm

610

:

Peter: skiing?

611

:

And, what's interesting to me is

that makes complete sense to me.

612

:

like, I have no sense of like, oh no,

well then that means you're happy.

613

:

Right?

614

:

It's like, oh no, that makes

complete sense that there's an

615

:

absorption and a joy of flow state

that is distinct from happiness.

616

:

Happiness.

617

:

Ryan: And then my other question is, , I

guess this may be rhetorical, but I

618

:

have had people who are close to me say,

619

:

you don't seem happy I think you're

unhappy, and I am certain I am

620

:

not unhappy, but the absence of

happiness does not mean unhappy.

621

:

Mm-hmm.

622

:

Mm-hmm.

623

:

And so that is a distinction that I've

had people observe about my demeanor

624

:

and presence, that when I'm content and

peaceful sometimes is read as unhappy.

625

:

Peter: So I think what's very typical is

626

:

to look for specific cues,

interpreting someone's happiness state.

627

:

Right?

628

:

Yeah.

629

:

In particular, happiness.

630

:

Right.

631

:

And it's like you, you're

not displaying the markers.

632

:

Mm-hmm.

633

:

Therefore you do not fall

into this definition.

634

:

Mm-hmm.

635

:

Because.

636

:

When I interact with people, this is

what my markers are for this interaction.

637

:

I mean, and that's an

interpersonal Thing, right?

638

:

That's a perception,

interpersonal perception thing.

639

:

Right.

640

:

Of you look happy to me,

you don't look happy to me.

641

:

And obviously people's perceptions

are entirely dependent on their state.

642

:

Ryan: I wonder if that's partially why

continue to have this resistance to it?

643

:

Sure.

644

:

Right.

645

:

I mean, that makes sense to

the term and as happiness.

646

:

Sure.

647

:

That totally

648

:

Peter: makes sense.

649

:

Ryan: But I like your, your

description of the beach.

650

:

That makes sense to me.

651

:

Like.

652

:

That's an appropriate use of happiness.

653

:

Peter: I was doing absolutely nothing.

654

:

I was like, my wife was,

reading or something.

655

:

She was sitting up mm-hmm.

656

:

I was lying back, I was looking

at the sky, but I wasn't looking.

657

:

I was just, my eyes were open.

658

:

I was appreciating the blue and I

was just experiencing what I was

659

:

experiencing and just had this very

absolute puppy dog image , and, and,

660

:

and then I was intentionally like,

okay, this is a great place to sink in.

661

:

and yet I wasn't sinking in, in

a way where there was a lot of

662

:

quiet, and a lot of spaciousness.

663

:

Like that's not where the focus was.

664

:

The focus was on enjoyment mm-hmm.

665

:

Of the experience, and

it had this energy to it.

666

:

Mm-hmm.

667

:

The enjoyment of this experience of doing

nothing at all and making no effort to

668

:

do anything of at all or change anything

at all had the quality of activity.

669

:

Ryan: I picked up on the word

enjoy, and there are many things

670

:

I enjoy, and of course the, the

construct of the word brings is joy.

671

:

Mm-hmm.

672

:

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

673

:

Ryan: But that, those are

different as well, right.

674

:

that happiness

675

:

maybe is a result of enjoyment, but the

enjoy and happiness are not synonyms.

676

:

Peter: I don't know.

677

:

I'm trying to get any more insight

into what that experience was like.

678

:

The puppy dog imagery is perfect.

679

:

I mean.

680

:

It was funny because, I had

this response of, dude, you're

681

:

being a, a, what is it called?

682

:

Downer.

683

:

A kill buzz.

684

:

Kill..

685

:

Um, because part of what I was doing

while we're having this conversation

686

:

was checking into my experience.

687

:

Sure.

688

:

And , you know, how present am I?

689

:

And I think I'm, I'm very present.

690

:

Like, I'm not thinking

about what I'm saying.

691

:

Mm-hmm.

692

:

I'm not, I'm not thinking

about, well how will this sound?

693

:

Or what is it gonna be like

afterwards or anything like that.

694

:

I'm looking back a bit 'cause I'm

recalling the beach, but other than that.

695

:

I feel very present and I still have this

sense of what I would call happiness.

696

:

my ego is definitely engaged because

my intellect is engaged in description

697

:

and analysis and trying to communicate

and trying to share the experience.

698

:

Successfully.

699

:

So there's an engagement

that's different from just

700

:

peaceful cont contentment.

701

:

Sure.

702

:

Right?

703

:

Yep.

704

:

and there's an activity.

705

:

Mm-hmm.

706

:

I mean, we are, we are interacting.

707

:

There's an activity here.

708

:

Ryan: I mean, maybe I

do experience happiness.

709

:

I don't experience the puppy

dog happiness very often.

710

:

I don't, I would to the point that

I would say I never feel that way.

711

:

Do I never, ever feel that way?

712

:

Obviously at some point in my life

I have felt that way, but it is

713

:

not a common experience for me.

714

:

And that illustration is something

I would definitely recognize as.

715

:

Pure and true happiness, meaning that

dog is in that moment and just absolutely

716

:

sublime and excited about that moment.

717

:

I guess going back to my initial

question here, say when I'm painting or

718

:

something, I am enjoying that moment.

719

:

There's not that excitement.

720

:

Mm-hmm.

721

:

But maybe it is different than just

inactive peace and contentment.

722

:

That there is an activity, there

is an engagement going on and

723

:

that there is an enjoyment and

recognition of that activity.

724

:

Peter: I think some people

call flow state happiness.

725

:

Okay.

726

:

I mean, I think, you know.

727

:

Sounds very familiar.

728

:

Like, oh, that's when I'm truly happy.

729

:

Sure.

730

:

Right.

731

:

Sure.

732

:

People are describing, they're like,

when I am out on the river and I'm this,

733

:

and that's when I'm truly happiness.

734

:

Mm-hmm.

735

:

This is where I go to be happy.

736

:

Okay.

737

:

And so I think that there is

a version that Of happiness.

738

:

Of happiness that's that.

739

:

But to your point, right.

740

:

Would someone then go out with a set of

binoculars and look at that person and

741

:

say, oh, they, they look happy to me.

742

:

They would probably say,

oh, they don't look happy.

743

:

Like, their face could be, called RBF.

744

:

Right.

745

:

Right.

746

:

And like you couldn't read it.

747

:

But the, but the subjective

experience would be like, I

748

:

am, I've never felt better.

749

:

Yes.

750

:

Right.

751

:

Right.

752

:

So I think Okay, there are versions.

753

:

Sure.

754

:

Obviously, I'm just sharing like, you

know, you're telling me your, your

755

:

version of not knowing what happiness

is, and I'm telling you my version Right.

756

:

Of like, oh, this sounds very familiar.

757

:

And just to say, this doesn't mean

that every hour of my past week

758

:

of course, has been like this.

759

:

my wife would certainly tell

it like, oh no, he's a mess.

760

:

But I have a very easy recognition of

being able to look at my life and say,

761

:

I

762

:

Yeah, yeah.

763

:

You know, I am, happy.

764

:

I mean, obviously right now talking

to you, I'm not dealing with any

765

:

of those imperfections that exist.

766

:

And when I.

767

:

Come into contact with

them and, oppose them.

768

:

I'm not happy anymore.

769

:

Right, right.

770

:

but that's.

771

:

Dealing with, and grappling, With life and

not just being in complete flow with life.

772

:

Ryan: I don't choose the term happiness,

but like, if somebody asks, are you happy?

773

:

I, I, well, yeah, I'm happy.

774

:

Get off my back.

775

:

Well, and because it's, you

know, it's a convenient term

776

:

people, people understand, but

777

:

Peter: its better than saying I'm fine.

778

:

Ryan: Going back to the converse.

779

:

how much unhappiness do I experience?

780

:

And I would say very little.

781

:

, How do you describe your

experience of unhappiness?

782

:

Do you actively have

unhappiness frequently still?

783

:

Peter: I think it's objectively true.

784

:

I mean, this goes to

relationship to conditioning,

785

:

which we've touched on before.

786

:

It's possible to be in fundamental

wellbeing and let your conditioning run

787

:

and be okay with like, I'm being very

reactive, but it's not bothering me.

788

:

so I'm not unhappy.

789

:

It's your problem.

790

:

It's like I'm perfectly content.

791

:

I'm not unhappy.

792

:

and for me, I don't

experience it that way.

793

:

'cause my orientation is one of,

794

:

I don't I just, in my framework it's

like, oh, I don't want to be that way.

795

:

and, so I will call it

unhappy and it feels unhappy.

796

:

It feels unhappy to recognize that.

797

:

, I'm not behaving outta presence.

798

:

And you can recognize that.

799

:

I was triggered, I was caught up.

800

:

I was, my condition program was

running and it felt terrible.

801

:

Ryan: Mm.

802

:

Peter: and I was caught in it.

803

:

And it's like, yeah.

804

:

that's not happiness.

805

:

and people would recognize,

You're not happy.

806

:

Ryan: not happy is different

than unhappy in my opinion.

807

:

Peter: Okay.

808

:

Yes.

809

:

so do I have unhappiness?

810

:

Yeah.

811

:

I can't see how else to describe it.

812

:

can I phrase it in another way so

that I can say, I'm not unhappy,

813

:

I'm just experiencing this or that.

814

:

It's like, well, that's what, being

unhappy, like experiencing things the

815

:

way that that is, is unhappy is what

I call, I'm not happy, I'm unhappy.

816

:

Right.

817

:

Not happy, unhappy.

818

:

Yeah.

819

:

See, see, for me.

820

:

Not happy is much closer

to unhappy than for you.

821

:

Not happy doesn't mean anything,

822

:

Ryan: so,

823

:

so I guess that's kind of

what I'm trying to get at.

824

:

it feels, it sounds strange.

825

:

It doesn't feel strange.

826

:

Mm-hmm.

827

:

It feels very in line with my intuited

experience, but it sounds strange to

828

:

say I don't really experience happiness.

829

:

I don't want to experience happiness.

830

:

Mm-hmm.

831

:

And I don't really experience unhappiness.

832

:

I think most people would call BS on that.

833

:

And rightfully so in the

conventional understanding.

834

:

Peter: Mm-hmm.

835

:

Ryan: But that's the way I feel.

836

:

And, and, and I guess I'm trying to

figure out, and I don't know why none

837

:

of this really matters, but it's,

it's intriguing to me because I've

838

:

recognized this persistent resistance

to the term happiness and unhappiness.

839

:

Happiness.

840

:

Happiness in general, sort of

as a misnomer, although I'm

841

:

coming around to the, existence

of a type of this experience.

842

:

But am I just naming it different or

is it really qualitatively different?

843

:

it sounds like, and obviously we're just

one interaction and one experience, but.

844

:

From what I've observed of other

people around me, I feel like I don't

845

:

really experience much unhappiness

and I don't experience very much

846

:

happiness, and I'm okay with that.

847

:

Peter: I think so if you wanna talk

to other people, so you wanna talk to

848

:

people other than me who seem to have

a clue as to what you're talking about,

849

:

I would hook into the POK community

because I think this is very familiar.

850

:

In fact, you know, in part of the

exercise that I do, there's a step that

851

:

says, see if you can access gratitude.

852

:

and if you're in a place where you

just don't sense emotions, then.

853

:

there's a very clear acknowledgement

of, you may not have clear access

854

:

to the emotion of gratitude.

855

:

and that there, I've been with people

who are actually reporting that out.

856

:

Mm-hmm.

857

:

Right.

858

:

and that, you know, well,

I'm appreciating this.

859

:

There's not really a sense of gratitude

and the instruction is like, well,

860

:

you know, see if you can have some

enjoyment of what you're experiencing.

861

:

And enjoyment can lead to gratitude.

862

:

Or appreciation.

863

:

And appreciation Can, you know, and, and,

and then people are saying, you know.

864

:

I have some appreciation.

865

:

Gratitude isn't quite there, you

know, and, there are these subtleties

866

:

of experience in relationship

to emotions that are part of the

867

:

vernacular of this community.

868

:

Sure.

869

:

and so, you know, what you're

talking about doesn't sound

870

:

weird or unfamiliar to me.

871

:

Ryan: Mm-hmm.

872

:

Peter: It's just not my experience.

873

:

But I am in contact with other people

whose experience is different from

874

:

mine and probably different from

mine in a way that's closer to yours.

875

:

Ryan: Mm.

876

:

I've expressed previously

that I don't feel any,

877

:

I don't feel like I'm weird, right?

878

:

Like, I don't have any sense that what I

experience is different or alternative.

879

:

But when I hear other

people's experience, right.

880

:

Exactly.

881

:

It just doesn't match.

882

:

It doesn't match.

883

:

Right, right.

884

:

Peter: Even hearing you say it

doesn't, you don't feel weird.

885

:

Sounds weird to me.

886

:

It's like, who doesn't feel weird?

887

:

Uh, so interesting.

888

:

That reminds me of, so I'm thinking of,

I'm thinking of our, my groups, right?

889

:

Mm-hmm.

890

:

the non POK groups.

891

:

Mm-hmm.

892

:

Where, a very common exercise is,

kind of who else feels this way?

893

:

Right.

894

:

You know, and the call for hands and

like, and so there's normalization of,

895

:

you know, what someone's going through.

896

:

And it's very, very common.

897

:

I mean, it's almost without exception,

golly, I think it is without exception.

898

:

I don't think I've ever seen someone

deal with someone something and, and

899

:

have, have a leader say, you know, who

else, you know, who's familiar with this?

900

:

And nobody's hand goes up.

901

:

Right, right.

902

:

Um, well that would dangerous situation.

903

:

Like

904

:

backfire.

905

:

well, I don't think it's really

possible except, again, I

906

:

think in, in general, okay.

907

:

So I would call the group, I'm

referring to a healing circle Mm-hmm.

908

:

these are people who are aware

of and confronting things that

909

:

they perceive as difficult.

910

:

Yeah.

911

:

And that's most people.

912

:

Yeah.

913

:

But I don't think it's everyone.

914

:

Sure.

915

:

And I think, again, if you, if you did

the hand raise in a POK session you would.

916

:

Absolutely.

917

:

And, and, and probably even historically.

918

:

Yep.

919

:

like, so how, how many people

have never had this experience?

920

:

Yeah.

921

:

or not familiar with this

experience, or it sounds odd to them.

922

:

I'm absolutely sure that

you would get hand raises.

923

:

Ryan: Sure.

924

:

Yeah.

925

:

I mean, I don't think my

experience is isolated Right.

926

:

By any means, but

927

:

Peter: it's unusual.

928

:

I think it's been really interesting

to have a conversation about

929

:

subjective experience of happiness.

930

:

Mm-hmm.

931

:

and I'm really curious to hear any

kind of response to this conversation

932

:

because you know, it's like,

well to the hand raise exercise.

933

:

right.

934

:

Well, is anyone familiar with

what the hell I'm talking about?

935

:

Yeah.

936

:

Right.

937

:

Is anyone familiar with

what Ryan's talking about?

938

:

Or is everyone somewhere between?

939

:

Right.

940

:

Yeah.

941

:

and I think it's, I think it's interesting

that this fascinating video was a

942

:

springboard for this conversation, which

has very little to do with the video,

943

:

but I'm still, I still want to come back

to the end of the video and the metaphor

944

:

that, that we talked about, that she, that

she introduces, because I think it has

945

:

to do with what she said at the beginning

946

:

Where she's saying, I tried all

these things and I'm still not happy.

947

:

And at the end of the video, the

interviewer says, what's our takeaway?

948

:

And she's like, here's the takeaway.

949

:

And it has nothing to do with

what she was talking about.

950

:

but I think it has everything

to do with what she said at the

951

:

beginning about I wasn't being happy.

952

:

And at the end she's saying.

953

:

She's

954

:

Speaker 4: happy.

955

:

Peter: She's

956

:

Speaker 4: happy.

957

:

Yeah.

958

:

Peter: and it's really about what's

remarkable, I think, is it's about how to

959

:

be happy working at something important.

960

:

Because that's what she's talking about.

961

:

She's like, I didn't abandon

my career in science.

962

:

I am still engaged in serious scientific

research and I'm also pursuing this

963

:

other, this, I don't know what I

mean, what, you know, we might call

964

:

woo kind of stuff, but she's like,

I'm doing it in a scientific way.

965

:

and she talks about how yeah, how she's

continuing but in a different way.

966

:

Which is, I mean, I guess it's

the story of most of the other

967

:

scientists who have awakening and

they don't stop being scientists.

968

:

That's the whole point.

969

:

That's the point.

970

:

Right?

971

:

They don't stop being scientists.

972

:

But there are so many people

who find happiness and stop

973

:

doing what they were doing.

974

:

Ryan: So that was not really a digression,

I guess, because I do think that, as

975

:

you mentioned, the subtext of this

episode seemed to be a theme around.

976

:

Happiness.

977

:

And I had some questions about that and I

appreciate the indulge in that discussion.

978

:

But to get back to the episode, she

talked about this experience she had in

979

:

meditation and the, the transition of

integration of the two worldviews post

980

:

this say awakening experience or this

meditative experience she had where she

981

:

would have oscillations of doubt and

skepticism that would, materialize from

982

:

this historical materialist perspective.

983

:

So she was saying how she would

interact with her colleagues and start

984

:

to question whether she could actually

trust her subjective experience that was.

985

:

Real in the experience, but

then , this intellectual materialist

986

:

view starts to overcome and make

you question and be a skeptic.

987

:

So she went through this period after

of sort of this back and forth as she

988

:

started to integrate these perspectives.

989

:

And then described how eventually the

intellect finds a way to catch up and

990

:

integrate the two perspectives over time.

991

:

And she spoke specifically of scientists,

that when scientists experience this

992

:

awakening,, they gain this interiority and

inclination to continue to explore how.

993

:

That experience relates

to the material world.

994

:

And this is something that we've discussed

a number of times and I've raised

995

:

specifically as, a theme that the most

prominent people in this space, although I

996

:

did find it interesting that she mentioned

ca what's the philosopher's name?

997

:

The guy who card card up.

998

:

I wanna call him ketchup,

but it's not Kastrup Kastrup.

999

:

Bernardo Kastrup.

:

00:46:31,452 --> 00:46:36,352

Bernardo Kastrup, who we talked about

and was involved in the last interview,

:

00:46:36,402 --> 00:46:39,582

with Faggin, and Penrose Penrose.

:

00:46:39,682 --> 00:46:45,462

He is one of the few that we've

experienced academics in this space

:

00:46:45,462 --> 00:46:48,852

that have not specifically experienced.

:

00:46:48,952 --> 00:46:52,532

This metaphysical, awakening type thing.

:

00:46:52,532 --> 00:46:56,492

And he basically says he's just

following the evidence and analysis.

:

00:46:56,492 --> 00:46:57,272

Analysis.

:

00:46:57,302 --> 00:46:57,452

Yeah.

:

00:46:57,457 --> 00:46:57,527

Yeah.

:

00:46:57,752 --> 00:47:02,572

So the point being there is this

theme that those most prominent in

:

00:47:02,602 --> 00:47:07,792

the space, and I think independent

of their own, like they seem to be

:

00:47:07,792 --> 00:47:11,862

very, well regarded scientists in

their space before this happens.

:

00:47:11,862 --> 00:47:14,502

It's not like they're kooks

or like fringe science.

:

00:47:14,502 --> 00:47:14,907

So, so you're

:

00:47:14,907 --> 00:47:20,047

Peter: saying the most prominent

in the idealism, right.

:

00:47:20,047 --> 00:47:21,697

Science space.

:

00:47:21,697 --> 00:47:21,937

Yes.

:

00:47:21,937 --> 00:47:22,387

Yes.

:

00:47:22,487 --> 00:47:25,697

Ryan: All seem to have this,

have had an experience that

:

00:47:25,697 --> 00:47:27,917

then drove them To, I guess.

:

00:47:28,017 --> 00:47:32,817

What we're about to talk about, which

is it expands their perception to be

:

00:47:32,817 --> 00:47:39,947

able to encompass the potential of

this consciousness first paradigm.

:

00:47:40,227 --> 00:47:43,417

I found that interesting that

this continues to be a theme.

:

00:47:43,494 --> 00:47:48,974

so anyway, So she, went through

some of the work that she did.

:

00:47:49,074 --> 00:47:55,394

In this integration and talking about

how the historical spiritual texts,

:

00:47:55,494 --> 00:48:00,230

much of the knowledge was gained

through Revelation and we're finding

:

00:48:00,230 --> 00:48:06,300

the more we move science into this

space, that there's alignment of

:

00:48:06,570 --> 00:48:08,100

what we're learning intellectually.

:

00:48:08,767 --> 00:48:12,107

Versus the historical revelation.

:

00:48:12,207 --> 00:48:13,947

Peter: Yes.

:

00:48:14,047 --> 00:48:18,397

But I mean, it seems like there's

a kind of revelation there as well.

:

00:48:18,397 --> 00:48:21,917

I mean, 'cause what revelation is,

is awakening experience, right?

:

00:48:22,127 --> 00:48:24,947

And so we're talking about scientists

who were going through awakened

:

00:48:24,947 --> 00:48:26,507

experience and then pursuing this,

:

00:48:26,662 --> 00:48:27,882

Ryan: but they're saying that the

:

00:48:27,882 --> 00:48:32,735

scientific evidence that we're

coming to in more recent years

:

00:48:32,735 --> 00:48:33,305

Peter: is supporting,

:

00:48:33,310 --> 00:48:34,415

Ryan: is supporting that, right?

:

00:48:34,415 --> 00:48:35,015

Exactly.

:

00:48:35,015 --> 00:48:35,465

Yes.

:

00:48:35,525 --> 00:48:40,582

and so then she went on to describe a

metaphor for awareness and perception,

:

00:48:40,582 --> 00:48:47,322

discussing the conflict of the materialist

position and the idealists position

:

00:48:47,372 --> 00:48:52,572

Peter: so I think I, so I think the

question from the interviewer was

:

00:48:52,622 --> 00:48:59,329

how do you reconcile your experience

with your training and profession?

:

00:48:59,429 --> 00:49:06,029

And her explanation was , the optical

illusion of the, the vase and two faces

:

00:49:06,059 --> 00:49:06,149

Ryan: mm-hmm.

:

00:49:06,249 --> 00:49:10,049

Peter: Or what I call the figure,

field, perception, like how the

:

00:49:10,049 --> 00:49:12,539

figure appears on the field mm-hmm.

:

00:49:12,839 --> 00:49:14,759

Of a, of an illustration.

:

00:49:14,859 --> 00:49:17,999

so in her example, there's a black vase.

:

00:49:18,069 --> 00:49:20,609

On a white, square, square field.

:

00:49:20,709 --> 00:49:26,229

And when you look at the black object,

you just see this black vase But if

:

00:49:26,229 --> 00:49:30,279

you look at the white space or the

negative space and you see these two

:

00:49:30,279 --> 00:49:35,589

faces facing each other, then you don't

see that it's a picture of a vase.

:

00:49:35,589 --> 00:49:39,159

You see it's a picture of two faces,

and then your perception starts to

:

00:49:39,159 --> 00:49:42,949

shift back and forth between seeing

the vase and seeing the faces.

:

00:49:43,049 --> 00:49:48,199

Ryan: So she was saying how, this was a

description of the conflict or paradox

:

00:49:48,199 --> 00:49:53,199

between the materialist versus idealist,

but that , the initial metaphor seemed

:

00:49:53,199 --> 00:49:58,129

like she might focus on, you need to pay

attention or focus on the white space.

:

00:49:58,129 --> 00:50:02,569

But what she really was advocating for

was this expansion of perception to

:

00:50:02,599 --> 00:50:08,389

expand our awareness and perception to

include , the potential of both spaces.

:

00:50:08,389 --> 00:50:12,189

And that by expanding the curiosity.

:

00:50:12,189 --> 00:50:17,789

She spoke specifically , about

how her curiosity post materialism

:

00:50:17,889 --> 00:50:20,769

led her to find this evidence

:

00:50:20,849 --> 00:50:25,049

and it was a curiosity she said was

absent when she was in the materialist

:

00:50:25,054 --> 00:50:25,124

Peter: mm-hmm.

:

00:50:25,319 --> 00:50:25,979

Ryan: Paradigm.

:

00:50:26,059 --> 00:50:32,279

And that metaphor was illustrating

how , science has focused on, we'll

:

00:50:32,279 --> 00:50:34,289

say the black vase in the metaphor.

:

00:50:34,289 --> 00:50:39,419

And so all it knows and can

conceive of is anything that

:

00:50:39,419 --> 00:50:41,339

exists within that black vase.

:

00:50:41,529 --> 00:50:48,189

And her comment was to expand our

curiosity and our perception to

:

00:50:48,189 --> 00:50:51,899

allow for this alternate outcome.

:

00:50:51,999 --> 00:50:55,059

I mean, it's pointing exactly to what

we've been talking about previously where

:

00:50:55,239 --> 00:51:01,809

the institution of science and materialist

scientists are so dogmatic about things

:

00:51:01,809 --> 00:51:08,219

having to land within that space that

it prevents them from even conceiving

:

00:51:08,219 --> 00:51:13,169

of or being open to the potential of,

say, a consciousness first paradigm.

:

00:51:13,269 --> 00:51:18,449

and so she did use this,

metaphor, but then discussed how

:

00:51:18,549 --> 00:51:24,069

Expanded awareness and perception

and openness and curiosity led her

:

00:51:24,249 --> 00:51:30,389

to pursue the work that she was doing

before In a realm that supported

:

00:51:30,489 --> 00:51:34,369

what she seemed to understand as

this consciousness first paradigm.

:

00:51:34,469 --> 00:51:37,979

Peter: More curiosity about

the nature of consciousness.

:

00:51:38,039 --> 00:51:42,389

she cites a lot of NDE

studies, near death experience.

:

00:51:42,489 --> 00:51:49,469

and yes, , ' cause her prior work

academically was in, mobility and balance.

:

00:51:49,549 --> 00:51:50,839

and this is quite a shift.

:

00:51:50,839 --> 00:51:52,909

This has nothing to do with locomotion.

:

00:51:52,909 --> 00:51:58,209

This has to do with what Nature

of nature of consciousness.

:

00:51:58,259 --> 00:52:02,379

well, I actually, I guess I don't really

know what her current research is.

:

00:52:02,379 --> 00:52:06,849

She does present a few

specific case studies.

:

00:52:06,849 --> 00:52:07,299

Ryan: Mm-hmm.

:

00:52:07,399 --> 00:52:09,249

Peter: And she says that she did a paper.

:

00:52:09,349 --> 00:52:15,979

With, a doctor who experienced a near

death experience so that it would be in

:

00:52:15,979 --> 00:52:22,659

the PubMed, Medline, whatever database so

that when physicians, are curious about

:

00:52:22,659 --> 00:52:30,359

it, they find an actual published paper by

a neurobiologist working with a physician.

:

00:52:30,409 --> 00:52:32,249

she's seeding the field.

:

00:52:32,249 --> 00:52:34,259

She's seeding the mainstream literature.

:

00:52:34,379 --> 00:52:39,439

with this, rigorously reported,

metaphysical Experience.

:

00:52:39,489 --> 00:52:39,639

Ryan: yeah.

:

00:52:39,739 --> 00:52:45,359

She did talk about that work, and

I think we will bypass some of that

:

00:52:45,359 --> 00:52:49,869

because we want to tie this episode off

with the revelation around happiness

:

00:52:49,919 --> 00:52:55,349

Peter: I was inspired by your

question initially about happiness

:

00:52:55,449 --> 00:53:05,635

and then her, use of this vase

illusion metaphor for her perception.

:

00:53:06,359 --> 00:53:09,479

to me, the metaphor is pointing

at stuff that she's not saying.

:

00:53:09,509 --> 00:53:10,649

that's what I was taking away.

:

00:53:10,749 --> 00:53:15,169

at the beginning she was explicitly

saying, this is how not to be happy.

:

00:53:15,169 --> 00:53:15,589

Ryan: Mm-hmm.

:

00:53:15,989 --> 00:53:16,954

Peter: Be successful.

:

00:53:17,254 --> 00:53:19,664

I was a terrific graduate student.

:

00:53:19,814 --> 00:53:21,614

I became a professor.

:

00:53:21,614 --> 00:53:26,264

I published, I was very successful in

my field, and it did not make me happy.

:

00:53:26,364 --> 00:53:29,364

So being successful is

not how to be happy.

:

00:53:29,464 --> 00:53:35,147

And then what she says at the

end is, here's an illustration of

:

00:53:35,147 --> 00:53:36,617

kind of reconciling these views.

:

00:53:37,194 --> 00:53:38,034

And she's happy.

:

00:53:38,089 --> 00:53:40,369

And so that's where I was making the jump.

:

00:53:41,019 --> 00:53:43,059

Oh, she's telling us how to be happy here.

:

00:53:43,159 --> 00:53:48,829

And I'm tying that to my interpretation

of happiness per or earlier

:

00:53:48,889 --> 00:53:54,729

conversation, which is, the conventional

perspective is, let's call this

:

00:53:54,729 --> 00:53:58,859

painting, let's call this a painting

of a black vase on a white canvas.

:

00:53:58,959 --> 00:54:03,219

So there's black paint and there's

white paint on this canvas.

:

00:54:03,319 --> 00:54:07,169

And the conventional view is

to look at this canvas and

:

00:54:07,169 --> 00:54:09,679

say, I see this black figure.

:

00:54:09,919 --> 00:54:11,089

That's what exists.

:

00:54:11,189 --> 00:54:14,559

And essentially saying if

it's black paint, it exists.

:

00:54:14,559 --> 00:54:16,359

And if it's white paint, it doesn't exist.

:

00:54:16,459 --> 00:54:20,309

There's another perspective, which

we've talked about many times, which

:

00:54:20,309 --> 00:54:27,109

is a kind of non-dualism, which is

all about emptiness and neglecting

:

00:54:27,209 --> 00:54:29,889

the heart aspect of awakening.

:

00:54:29,989 --> 00:54:34,849

And that perspective is, analogous

to saying, oh, you're wrong.

:

00:54:34,949 --> 00:54:37,179

The black is an illusion.

:

00:54:37,279 --> 00:54:40,179

The white exists and

only the white is real.

:

00:54:40,279 --> 00:54:41,539

which is also false.

:

00:54:41,569 --> 00:54:41,689

Ryan: Mm-hmm.

:

00:54:41,789 --> 00:54:43,019

Peter: Um, in the metaphor.

:

00:54:43,119 --> 00:54:48,379

And I think in reality because

although the material world.

:

00:54:48,479 --> 00:54:53,219

Is in a sense, an illusion

created by consciousness.

:

00:54:53,319 --> 00:54:59,699

It has a reality in our experience,

and therefore, to deny it is to

:

00:54:59,699 --> 00:55:04,389

deny this black figure, which

exists in our field of view.

:

00:55:04,689 --> 00:55:10,709

It exists in our experience, and

it's not appropriate to deny that the

:

00:55:10,709 --> 00:55:15,769

experience exists or deny that the

experience is important merely because

:

00:55:15,869 --> 00:55:18,299

it is not in pure consciousness.

:

00:55:18,419 --> 00:55:18,629

Ryan: Right

:

00:55:18,729 --> 00:55:24,009

Peter: and that what she's pointing to

and what I was describing as my experience

:

00:55:24,009 --> 00:55:29,599

of happiness, was the integration

of the two, That you can clearly see

:

00:55:29,599 --> 00:55:35,169

the white space and you can clearly

see the black space and you're not.

:

00:55:35,269 --> 00:55:37,309

promoting one over the other.

:

00:55:37,489 --> 00:55:41,409

You're not saying one is real

and the other is unreal, or one

:

00:55:41,409 --> 00:55:43,699

is true and the other is false.

:

00:55:43,939 --> 00:55:49,709

by embracing the reality of both, and

you could say the absolute reality

:

00:55:49,889 --> 00:55:55,389

of consciousness and the experiential

reality or apparent reality or subjective

:

00:55:55,389 --> 00:56:02,579

reality, by both of them, then you

actually experience the happiness that,

:

00:56:02,679 --> 00:56:05,389

if you focus only on the material, you

:

00:56:05,439 --> 00:56:10,189

potentially experience a shallow,

unsatisfactory, un lasting happiness.

:

00:56:10,289 --> 00:56:15,779

And if you focus only on the

emptiness, you experience peace,

:

00:56:15,879 --> 00:56:17,499

but you don't experience happiness.

:

00:56:17,599 --> 00:56:23,929

so that's what it was saying to me

and the way I received it was, oh,

:

00:56:23,929 --> 00:56:25,549

she's giving us a coded message here.

:

00:56:25,609 --> 00:56:25,699

Ryan: Mm-hmm.

:

00:56:25,799 --> 00:56:29,219

Peter: You know, she's like, I'm not

gonna explicitly tell you how to be happy,

:

00:56:29,319 --> 00:56:32,549

but this is how I achieved happiness.

:

00:56:32,579 --> 00:56:37,309

'cause I think she's fairly

clear that she was unhappy before

:

00:56:37,309 --> 00:56:39,109

and she is no longer unhappy

:

00:56:39,409 --> 00:56:39,589

Ryan: right

:

00:56:39,589 --> 00:56:40,819

Peter: now to your point.

:

00:56:40,819 --> 00:56:42,049

Oh, does that mean that she's happy?

:

00:56:43,759 --> 00:56:47,389

But I think it's implicit that

she is happy where she is.

:

00:56:47,489 --> 00:56:53,159

and so, and, and I think that she's

further pointing to the field of study

:

00:56:53,159 --> 00:56:59,789

and to the experience of, awakening

scientists who are breaking open this,

:

00:56:59,789 --> 00:57:03,829

this, field of i the idealists, paradigm.

:

00:57:03,979 --> 00:57:04,129

Right.

:

00:57:04,229 --> 00:57:09,489

That this is leading

humanity into happiness

:

00:57:09,529 --> 00:57:09,679

Ryan: Yeah.

:

00:57:09,942 --> 00:57:18,142

, part of her unhappiness was this

extrinsic view of her personal value as

:

00:57:18,202 --> 00:57:18,292

Peter: mm-hmm.

:

00:57:18,392 --> 00:57:24,102

Ryan: Being productive and participatory

in the machine, so to speak.

:

00:57:24,192 --> 00:57:29,132

And that the shift in her

attitude to understanding.

:

00:57:29,232 --> 00:57:32,202

Her intrinsic value, our intrinsic value

:

00:57:32,202 --> 00:57:32,292

Peter: mm-hmm.

:

00:57:32,352 --> 00:57:34,132

Ryan: was a turning point in this.

:

00:57:34,232 --> 00:57:38,492

And she, pointed to some research that

:

00:57:38,592 --> 00:57:44,252

, When people shift out of the

materialistic paradigm, the shift

:

00:57:44,522 --> 00:57:47,452

in, their relation to , other beings.

:

00:57:47,572 --> 00:57:47,662

Mm-hmm.

:

00:57:47,762 --> 00:57:48,932

Animal plant.

:

00:57:48,992 --> 00:57:49,082

Mm-hmm.

:

00:57:49,352 --> 00:57:50,102

The earth.

:

00:57:50,402 --> 00:57:57,162

Each other changes to a more altruistic

and, Say a loving community and

:

00:57:57,192 --> 00:58:02,752

she points to the necessity of

moving away from materialism and

:

00:58:02,752 --> 00:58:06,962

being open to this consciousness

first paradigm for this reason.

:

00:58:07,022 --> 00:58:07,322

Right.

:

00:58:07,372 --> 00:58:07,792

Peter: Yes.

:

00:58:07,792 --> 00:58:13,762

But I think what's interesting to me

is the moving away from materialism

:

00:58:13,862 --> 00:58:16,212

is not a moving into a cave.

:

00:58:16,312 --> 00:58:16,942

Ryan: Correct.

:

00:58:17,032 --> 00:58:17,272

Peter: Right.

:

00:58:17,272 --> 00:58:18,502

It's not a withdrawal.

:

00:58:18,562 --> 00:58:18,922

Ryan: Yes.

:

00:58:19,022 --> 00:58:24,482

Peter: It's a moving away from the,

tunnel of vision on material world.

:

00:58:24,582 --> 00:58:31,332

Because what strikes me is that the

whole story of these awakening scientists

:

00:58:31,432 --> 00:58:37,247

is that they pursue their work, They

don't abandon their work because they

:

00:58:37,247 --> 00:58:39,947

realize that, space time is empty.

:

00:58:39,997 --> 00:58:46,457

I think they find themselves with

the tools to continue to pursue the

:

00:58:46,457 --> 00:58:53,577

understanding of reality, with this

expanded perspective and this, this

:

00:58:53,677 --> 00:58:56,597

un blinkered, unblinded, perspective.

:

00:58:56,602 --> 00:58:56,752

Ryan: Yeah.

:

00:58:56,897 --> 00:59:02,857

Peter: And now they're expanding

their work, and trying to get

:

00:59:02,917 --> 00:59:04,807

the establishment to expand.

:

00:59:05,317 --> 00:59:08,777

Into, this new space

and this new paradigm.

:

00:59:08,877 --> 00:59:13,577

Ryan: Yeah, I mean,, what she was

saying was, when their mind was

:

00:59:13,637 --> 00:59:19,206

opened, the evidence was evident

Like the evidence is there, but

:

00:59:19,206 --> 00:59:24,683

were blinded and when we unveil,

we're seeing what was always there.

:

00:59:24,733 --> 00:59:29,093

And I think that's what these

scientists are finding is, yes, they

:

00:59:29,093 --> 00:59:34,393

pursue because this is what they

do and they're using the tools and

:

00:59:34,393 --> 00:59:36,213

the abilities that they've built.

:

00:59:36,313 --> 00:59:40,003

But they're finding the evidence,

like the evidence is there.

:

00:59:40,053 --> 00:59:41,593

Peter: and that's to your point.

:

00:59:41,593 --> 00:59:47,843

That's exactly what, so what her

current work is, is publishing these

:

00:59:47,843 --> 00:59:50,153

phenomenon which are observable,

:

00:59:50,213 --> 00:59:50,453

Ryan: right.

:

00:59:50,553 --> 00:59:56,423

Peter: and researchable, but

have previously been outside of

:

00:59:56,423 --> 00:59:59,843

the realm of accepted science.

:

00:59:59,843 --> 00:59:59,933

Ryan: Right.

:

00:59:59,983 --> 01:00:04,243

Peter: and she's bringing her

credibility as a neurobiologist

:

01:00:04,936 --> 01:00:07,436

to, near death experience.

:

01:00:07,466 --> 01:00:07,526

Ryan: Yeah.

:

01:00:07,626 --> 01:00:09,006

Peter: There's some remarkable examples.

:

01:00:09,006 --> 01:00:12,386

There's a couple of very remarkable

examples, in the video, which we

:

01:00:12,386 --> 01:00:14,076

haven't touched on, but please,

:

01:00:14,176 --> 01:00:14,416

Ryan: yes,

:

01:00:14,446 --> 01:00:17,506

Peter: go and check them out

'cause it's quite remarkable.

:

01:00:17,556 --> 01:00:24,536

Ryan: Ultimately the understanding of

true nature and the intrinsic value within

:

01:00:24,536 --> 01:00:31,126

existence leads to doing what fulfills,

but having fun with it as opposed to

:

01:00:31,156 --> 01:00:35,216

this compulsion for productivity and

:

01:00:35,316 --> 01:00:36,666

she spoke about.

:

01:00:36,766 --> 01:00:39,646

Unfolding reality with others.

:

01:00:39,746 --> 01:00:44,976

So that when consciousness, and we didn't

go into the mechanism, she was discussing

:

01:00:45,036 --> 01:00:50,356

earlier in the video about separating

consciousness and the perception of

:

01:00:50,356 --> 01:00:55,951

separation within individuated bodies,

but there was some discussion about that.

:

01:00:55,981 --> 01:00:58,731

But the point was, that

consciousness is ever expanding,

:

01:00:58,731 --> 01:01:00,751

and that reminded me of the.

:

01:01:00,801 --> 01:01:06,411

fundamental process and this

continuing evolvement into stronger

:

01:01:06,411 --> 01:01:12,001

and deeper complexity that sort of

resonated as, akin to that concept.

:

01:01:12,101 --> 01:01:16,321

But that, our interaction

with the material world is

:

01:01:16,421 --> 01:01:18,281

part of that creative process.

:

01:01:18,331 --> 01:01:23,831

, And what we're doing here is

unfolding and expanding consciousness,

:

01:01:23,831 --> 01:01:26,081

unfolding reality with others.

:

01:01:26,081 --> 01:01:30,848

And she likened that sort of to

a game, pointing to meaning and

:

01:01:30,848 --> 01:01:35,958

fulfillment and happiness comes

from the joyful exploration of

:

01:01:35,958 --> 01:01:37,518

this expanding consciousness.

:

01:01:37,548 --> 01:01:37,578

Peter: Mm.

:

01:01:38,045 --> 01:01:42,445

Ryan: Not the compulsion to be

recognized and be the best and

:

01:01:42,445 --> 01:01:43,230

Peter: material success,

:

01:01:43,510 --> 01:01:44,900

Ryan: material success and such.

:

01:01:45,443 --> 01:01:45,803

Okay.

:

01:01:45,903 --> 01:01:46,353

Well.

:

01:01:46,453 --> 01:01:49,253

Thank you for the happiness

and the happiness discussion.

:

01:01:49,253 --> 01:01:50,883

This was an interesting video.

:

01:01:50,883 --> 01:01:53,763

I enjoyed it very much and I

recommend that you all, go and

:

01:01:53,763 --> 01:01:56,793

listen to it, especially for

the pieces that we didn't cover.

:

01:01:56,843 --> 01:02:00,703

because as Peter mentioned, there's

some quite compelling evidence.

:

01:02:00,703 --> 01:02:05,283

And it ties in a lot of what we've been

talking about over the past few episodes.

:

01:02:05,333 --> 01:02:09,193

so we recommend it and I recommend

that you, follow Essentia Foundation.

:

01:02:09,193 --> 01:02:13,293

We've, leveraged a few of their videos

here recently and we appreciate their

:

01:02:13,293 --> 01:02:14,913

work, so go support them as well.

:

01:02:14,913 --> 01:02:18,563

So drop us a comment, and we'll

talk to you guys next time.

:

01:02:18,663 --> 01:02:18,933

Bye

:

01:02:19,113 --> 01:02:19,503

Peter: bye now.

:

01:02:21,593 --> 01:02:24,203

Thank you for listening to

the Tracking Wisdom podcast.

:

01:02:24,323 --> 01:02:26,573

Join us next time as we

continue the discussion.

:

01:02:27,113 --> 01:02:30,263

Don't forget to follow us on

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:

01:02:30,623 --> 01:02:31,443

and visit www.eth-studio.com

:

01:02:34,973 --> 01:02:36,803

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