Joining me today is Jennifer Chesak, the author of The Psilocybin Handbook for Women.

Jennifer is an award-winning freelance science and medical journalist, editor, and fact-checker, and her work has appeared in several national publications, including the Washington Post. Chesak earned her master of science in journalism from Northwestern University’s Medill School of Journalism. She currently teaches in the journalism and publishing programs at Belmont University, leads various workshops at the literary nonprofit The Porch, and serves as the managing editor for the literary magazine SHIFT.

Today we’re talking about the use of psilocybin, a psychedelic plant medicine, and its potential benefits. 

While psilocybin has potential benefits for everyone, today we’re diving into the specific ways in which it may be helpful for women including regulating our stress and trauma response, helping with depression and anxiety, facilitating healing and behavior change, and promoting hormone health in every stage of life.

Psychedelics and psychedelic assisted therapy are somewhat controversial, but they’re a subject that I’ve been curious about and wanting to cover for a long time, and I couldn’t ask for a better expert to talk with about it.

Jen dispels some of the common myths and fears around psilocybin and educates us on how it can be used safely and effectively.

Please be aware that psilocybin is a schedule one drug and is still federally illegal. However, it has been legalized on a state level in CO and OR, and is currently in the works in other states. It is illegal but decriminalized in Washington DC and Ann Arbor, MI.

If you decide to pursue psychedelic assisted therapy, it is imperative that you do thorough research on who you work with beforehand. I’ve included several resources below and Jennifer also includes detailed information on safety in the book.

The Psilocybin Handbook for Women 

http://www.jenniferchesak.com

On LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jenniferchesak/

On Instagram, Threads, TikTok, X (Twitter) and Facebook: @jenchesak

https://www.instagram.com/jenchesak/

https://twitter.com/jenchesak

https://www.threads.com/jenchesak

https://www.tiktok.com/jenchesak

https://www.facebook.com/jenchesak

Resources:

APPA (American Psychedelic Practitioners Association) - The APPA provides accreditation after practitioners have gone through a comprehensive training. 

Moms on Mushrooms

The Flourish Academy

April Pride 

Cover Story: Power Trip podcast

DanceSafe.org 

MAPS (Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Therapies) 

Johns Hopkins Medicine Psychedelics Research and Psilocybin Therapy

Interested in working with Jeannie? Schedule a 30-minute Coffee Talk here.

Connect with me on Instagram @joliverwellness and check out the options for my more affordable self-study programs here: https://www.joliverwellness.com/diy-programs

Music credit: Funk’d Up by Reaktor Productions

A Podcast Launch Bestie production

Speaker: 00:00:01

Hey there.

2

: 00:00:02

Welcome to the nutrition edit podcast.

3

: 00:00:04

I'm your host, Jeannie Oliver.

4

: 00:00:05

And joining me today is Jennifer

Chesick, the author of the

5

: 00:00:08

psilocybin handbook for women.

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: 00:00:11

Jennifer is an award winning

freelance scientist and medical

7

: 00:00:13

journalist, editor and fact checker.

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: 00:00:16

And her work has appeared in

several national publications,

9

: 00:00:18

including the Washington post.

10

: 00:00:20

Chesick earned her Master of Science in

Journalism from Northwest University's

11

: 00:00:24

Medill School of Journalism.

12

: 00:00:26

She currently teaches in the Journalism

and Publishing programs at Belmont

13

: 00:00:29

University, leads various workshops

at the literary non profit The Porch,

14

: 00:00:33

and serves as the managing editor

for the literary magazine Shift.

15

: 00:00:37

I'll add links for all the places that you

can find her in the show notes, but you

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: 00:00:40

can check out her work at jenniferchesick.

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: 00:00:42

com or follow her on

socials at Jen Chesick.

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: 00:00:45

It's spelled J E N C H E S A K.

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: 00:00:49

Today, we're talking about the use of

psilocybin, which is a psychedelic plant

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: 00:00:53

medicine and its potential benefits.

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: 00:00:56

And while psilocybin has potential

benefits for everybody, both men and

22

: 00:00:59

women alike, today we're going to dive

into the specific ways in which it

23

: 00:01:03

can be helpful for us women, including

regulating our stress and trauma

24

: 00:01:06

response, helping with depression

and anxiety, facilitating healing and

25

: 00:01:11

behavior change, and promoting hormone

health in every stage of our lives.

26

: 00:01:15

Psychedelics and psychedelic assisted

therapy are still somewhat controversial,

27

: 00:01:19

but they're a subject that I have been

really curious about and wanting to cover

28

: 00:01:23

for a long time, and I couldn't ask for

a better expert to talk about it with.

29

: 00:01:28

Jen's going to dispel some of

the common myths and fears around

30

: 00:01:31

psilocybin, also known as magic

mushrooms, and she educates us on how

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: 00:01:35

it can be used safely and effectively.

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: 00:01:37

I learned a ton in this

episode, and I hope that you'll

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: 00:01:40

enjoy it as much as I did.

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: 00:01:42

So now let's jump into my

interview with Jen Chesick.

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: 00:02:26

. jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

WElcome Jennifer Chesick.

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: 00:02:28

I'm so excited to have you here.

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: 00:02:29

Thanks for joining me today.

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: 00:02:31

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

you for having me.

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: 00:02:31

I'm pleased to be here.

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: 00:02:33

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Yeah.

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: 00:02:34

So I'm really excited about your

book and just to dive into this.

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: 00:02:38

This is such a hot topic right now and

it's something I've been wanting to

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: 00:02:42

talk with an expert about for a long

time and really take a deep dive into.

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: 00:02:46

So thank you for joining us.

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: 00:02:48

I'm really, really looking

forward to this talk.

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: 00:02:50

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Thank you.

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: 00:02:51

You've come to the right person.

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: 00:02:52

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Absolutely.

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: 00:02:53

So tell us a little about

yourself and your background.

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: 00:02:57

Tell us about the book and

why you decided to write it.

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: 00:03:01

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Sure.

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: 00:03:01

Yeah.

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: 00:03:01

So I am a science and medical journalist.

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: 00:03:04

I'm also a fact checker and I'm

an adjunct instructor in the

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: 00:03:08

journalism and publishing program.

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: 00:03:10

So I'm just constantly always writing

and dappling in the written word, but

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: 00:03:14

I really focused on health and science

and wellness and things like that.

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: 00:03:18

And I have a really strong passion for

women's health, especially because I've

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: 00:03:22

had a lot of health problems in my life.

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: 00:03:24

And I've found that oftentimes when you,

when women enter the mainstream medical

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: 00:03:28

system, they get really frustrated.

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: 00:03:31

And I'll talk a little bit about

that as we move through the podcast.

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: 00:03:34

But in terms of The actual book.

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: 00:03:37

So I've always really been

fascinated by psychedelics as well.

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: 00:03:41

And then it seemed like a great

opportunity to merge the two

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: 00:03:44

women's health and psychedelics.

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: 00:03:46

And one of the reasons that this is so

important to have a book just dedicated

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: 00:03:50

to the female body is that so, more

women in some cases are actually

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: 00:03:55

using psychedelics more frequently

than men at some psychedelics.

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: 00:03:59

And this is, you know, a blanket.

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: 00:04:01

statement pulled from a a survey,

the global drug survey of: 2020

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: 00:04:06

I, that came as a surprise to me.

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: 00:04:07

I was a little surprised that more

women are using some psychedelics

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: 00:04:10

more frequently than men.

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: 00:04:12

But when I dug a little deeper,

this didn't surprise me.

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: 00:04:14

And this really like drove home

the need for this book, but.

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: 00:04:18

What, what didn't surprise me is that

there's a difference between the way

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: 00:04:21

men and women tend to use psychedelics.

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: 00:04:23

So, men tend to use psychedelics a little

bit more recreationally, whereas women

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: 00:04:27

are turning to psychedelics to self treat.

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: 00:04:29

And again, this is an overgeneralization,

and not all men are using

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: 00:04:33

psychedelics just recreationally,

and there's nothing wrong with

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: 00:04:35

using psychedelics recreationally.

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: 00:04:37

They're fun!

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: 00:04:38

But women are turning to psychedelics

to self treat for conditions

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: 00:04:41

like PTSD, trauma, anxiety.

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: 00:04:44

Depression, chronic pain issues,

other chronic health conditions.

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: 00:04:49

And these are the very same

conditions that disproportionately

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: 00:04:52

affect the female body.

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: 00:04:53

And also when women go to the

doctor's office, they're gas lit

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: 00:04:57

for some of these very conditions.

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So endometriosis is a classic example.

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It's a condition that I have.

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And I write about that in

the book, but so it's been a

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problem, a longstanding problem.

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: 00:05:07

And, but psychedelics, they're looking

for alternative treatments so that.

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: 00:05:12

They can find relief for

some of these issues.

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: 00:05:15

And that's why it's really important for

them to have accurate information, safety

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: 00:05:19

information, any information that is very

specific to the female body, which I think

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: 00:05:24

we're going to talk about hormones later

and the menstrual cycle and all of that.

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: 00:05:27

And so wanting to dive into that.

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But one of the things I like to

share with people when I first.

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start talking about how women are

treated in the medical system.

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I like to throw out this timeline.

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So women were largely excluded

from early stage clinical trials

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until about the 1990s, early 1990s.

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And that has had some major ramifications.

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A lot of people don't realize

this, but I give this timeline and

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it kind of gets people fired up.

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Um, so in 1998, men got a drug

for male sexual dysfunction and

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everyone knows what that drug is.

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: 00:05:57

It's Viagra, right?

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: 00:05:58

You know, household name, right?

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: 00:06:01

And at that point in time, the medical

community, let alone anybody that

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a woman might have been sleeping

with, didn't have an accurate

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: 00:06:08

picture of what the clitoris is.

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: 00:06:10

So there's all this internal structure to

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: 00:06:12

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Do they now?

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: 00:06:14

Right.

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jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

people, the medical community

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: 00:06:19

at least is starting to get the

picture, but maybe not everyone.

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: 00:06:23

But that didn't happen until 2005 when

a female urologist dug into the research

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: 00:06:27

on this and then determined all of

this internal structure to clitoris.

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: 00:06:30

And that's crazy, that was 2005.

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: 00:06:32

And

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: 00:06:32

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

That is

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: 00:06:33

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

I know!

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: 00:06:34

Blows my mind too.

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: 00:06:35

And then get this, it wasn't

until: 2015

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: 00:06:40

for female sexual dysfunction.

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: 00:06:42

That's a 17 year gap from when

dudes got a drug to when women

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: 00:06:46

got a drug for the same condition.

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: 00:06:48

Even though, like, sexual dysfunction

affects The male and the female body

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: 00:06:52

differently, clearly, but because

of different anatomy, but it's

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: 00:06:56

still a condition and it's the same

condition in the broad scope of it.

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: 00:07:00

And that's a 17 year gap.

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: 00:07:03

So the medical community has largely

been treating the female body and the

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: 00:07:06

male body as the same in research.

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: 00:07:08

I mean, this is starting to change.

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: 00:07:11

now, but it's still, it's still

an issue that women's health is

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: 00:07:15

often put on the back burner.

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: 00:07:18

And so that is why I feel like it's

so important that if women are turning

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: 00:07:21

to psychedelics to self treat, which

there's nothing wrong with that

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as long as they're doing it safely

then, they need accurate information.

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So that's what this book is

really all about and all the

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: 00:07:31

contexts that might apply.

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: 00:07:33

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Awesome.

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: 00:07:34

Yeah.

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: 00:07:34

And it's called the

psilocybin handbook for women.

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: 00:07:38

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Sorry.

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: 00:07:38

I forgot to mention that.

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: 00:07:40

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Well, I'll definitely put that in

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: 00:07:42

the intro for sure, but I just think

it's, I think it's so brilliant.

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: 00:07:45

I think it's so exciting.

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: 00:07:46

Thank you for writing this because, I've

been really interested in brain health

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: 00:07:51

and metabolism and the work that I do

and things like dementia and Alzheimer's.

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: 00:07:56

I mean, Alzheimer's, it affects

twice as many Women, as men, we

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: 00:08:00

now know that our brains function

very differently than men's brains.

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: 00:08:05

That medications and all these

things affect us so differently

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than they do men's brains.

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: 00:08:11

And so, yet another reason why

we should take a very specific

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: 00:08:17

gender focused look at this.

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: 00:08:19

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Mm hmm.

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: 00:08:20

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

In that context, because

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: 00:08:21

it isn't the same.

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: 00:08:22

We aren't just little men.

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: 00:08:24

I heard a doctor, um, no,

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: 00:08:26

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

not little men.

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: 00:08:27

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Dr.

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: 00:08:28

Lisa Moscone refers to

it as bikini medicine.

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: 00:08:30

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Yes,

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: 00:08:31

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

You know, that anything that the bikini

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: 00:08:32

could cover that that was considered

what differentiated men from women

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: 00:08:36

and anything beyond that was like,

well, it must just be the same thing.

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: 00:08:39

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

right and that term I use in the book to

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: 00:08:42

point out that when the medical community

does focus on women's health, like when

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they actually are researching it, they

are focusing just on like the bikini

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aspect, and it's usually related to

reproduction, and like women were not just

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: 00:08:53

put on this earth to reproduce, you know,

so that's a big frustration on my end.

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: 00:08:59

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

wild.

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: 00:08:59

So give us a little bit of

the history of psilocybin.

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: 00:09:03

And I know that this, could be a podcast

in its own, but just a little brief

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: 00:09:07

overview of kind of the history of it.

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: 00:09:09

, we know that psychedelics have been used

by indigenous populations for centuries.

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: 00:09:13

So give us a little nutshell version of

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: 00:09:16

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

of course.

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: 00:09:17

Yeah.

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: 00:09:17

So I actually don't know how long it's

been used in indigenous communities.

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: 00:09:21

I think we're still actually

learning that and digging into that.

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: 00:09:24

But yeah, psilocybin has a

storied history of being used in

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: 00:09:27

indigenous communities, indigenous

ceremonies for different purposes.

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: 00:09:31

And this is so important in the context

of what we're doing with psilocybin

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: 00:09:35

now, because you know, everyone's

focusing on the newer research on

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: 00:09:39

psilocybin, but we need to, whenever

we are talking about psilocybin, we

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: 00:09:42

need to be bringing in indigenous

wisdom because of that long history.

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: 00:09:46

We think of science as this

process of doing things over and

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: 00:09:49

over again to reproduce the same

results, but that's exactly what

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: 00:09:52

indigenous communities have done.

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: 00:09:54

I mean, yes, it's not in clinical trials

and indigenous communities, but it's.

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: 00:09:57

still, it's still using a very

scientific process in some regard.

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: 00:10:02

And so I did interview,

um, this wonderful woman.

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: 00:10:05

Her name is Michaela de la Mico.

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: 00:10:07

She goes by mama de la Mico on Instagram,

and she has studied psilocybin in

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: 00:10:11

the context of, of, um, indigenous

practices, and she's indigenous herself.

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: 00:10:16

And so she uses those practices

to help women with various things.

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: 00:10:20

So I pulled her in as an interview

because I don't have that background.

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: 00:10:25

And I just felt it was really important

to get the right expert for that.

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: 00:10:28

But in terms of I think it's also

important to understand like how In

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: 00:10:33

the US, like the mainstream medical

community even got to know psilocybin.

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: 00:10:38

And so that started when, so originally

this guy named Robert Gordon Wasson,

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: 00:10:44

he's a JPMorgan and Chase executive.

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: 00:10:47

This was back in the 1950s.

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: 00:10:48

He went down to Mexico at some point

and met a woman named Maria Sabina.

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: 00:10:53

Maria Sabina is an indigenous healer,

or curandero is the appropriate term.

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: 00:10:59

I don't know if.

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: 00:11:00

Healer maps is quite up with

that, but I'll go with it for now.

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: 00:11:03

Anyway so she was, she was,

using psilocybin in ceremonial

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: 00:11:07

practices and he met up with her.

219

: 00:11:09

And back then, the white

man was not allowed to

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: 00:11:12

participate in these ceremonies.

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: 00:11:14

So he lied to her and he said,

I need to do this so I can go

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: 00:11:17

and find my son who was missing.

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: 00:11:19

And that was not true at all.

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: 00:11:21

Her, his son was not missing.

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: 00:11:23

And but he lied to her, and she finally

let him join a ceremony with the condition

226

: 00:11:28

that he not go and tell anyone where

she lived or who she was by not mention

227

: 00:11:35

her name when he went back to the U.

228

: 00:11:36

S.

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: 00:11:37

Well, of course, he totally violated

that agreement and came back to the U.

230

: 00:11:41

S.

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: 00:11:41

and wrote a big article in Life

magazine naming her village.

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: 00:11:45

naming her.

233

: 00:11:46

So this was a total violation of

that trust that they had built.

234

: 00:11:50

And then all of these people

started flocking to her village.

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: 00:11:53

So like Walt Disney went there, John

Lennon, a lot of other celebrities.

236

: 00:11:58

And then, of course, just general, the

general population sort of flocking there.

237

: 00:12:01

And, brought a lot of tourist

issues to that community.

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: 00:12:06

And the community was not liking this

because they were overrun with tourists.

239

: 00:12:09

And, not a great way.

240

: 00:12:11

And so, she ended up being

ostracized from her village.

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: 00:12:15

Uh, her house was burned down.

242

: 00:12:16

I believe her son was murdered.

243

: 00:12:18

I don't know the details of the

murder or anything like that.

244

: 00:12:21

But but really it's not a great story.

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: 00:12:23

It's a really, really sad story.

246

: 00:12:25

Uh, and she eventually You know,

passed away, but she lived in

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: 00:12:29

poverty for the rest of her life

because of this man, what he did.

248

: 00:12:33

And it's really harmful

when we think about that.

249

: 00:12:36

So at that time, then you know,

psychedelics were starting to

250

: 00:12:38

be studied back then for mental

health issues and other contexts.

251

: 00:12:43

But then we had the war on drugs,

and that halted a bunch of research,

252

: 00:12:47

and now we're getting back to it.

253

: 00:12:49

But it's so important to just remember

that origin story because again, it's

254

: 00:12:53

like a violation of women for sure,

and then also Indigenous communities,

255

: 00:12:57

and so it's so important that when we

talk about psilocybin, that we bring

256

: 00:13:00

that Indigenous, uh, culture into it.

257

: 00:13:03

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Yeah, I agree.

258

: 00:13:04

And kudos to you for having,

for prioritizing that and

259

: 00:13:09

having the awareness to do that.

260

: 00:13:10

Because I think that hopefully by

using this now, the knowledge in a

261

: 00:13:15

way that does honor women and help

people, it honors the memory of.

262

: 00:13:22

Her and these pioneers and people who

were, using it first, who got there first.

263

: 00:13:27

I think we're so arrogant in the West.

264

: 00:13:29

We love to think that

we're the ones that are

265

: 00:13:31

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Yeah,

266

: 00:13:32

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

all these things, right?

267

: 00:13:34

Discovering things.

268

: 00:13:35

It was like, no dude,

269

: 00:13:37

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

No, dude.

270

: 00:13:38

Yes.

271

: 00:13:39

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

no dude.

272

: 00:13:40

Yeah.

273

: 00:13:40

So, well, okay.

274

: 00:13:42

Yeah.

275

: 00:13:42

That's fascinating.

276

: 00:13:43

And I think too, that there was

that negative sort of stigma or just

277

: 00:13:49

perception of psychedelics as like,

You know, hippies doing LSD and just

278

: 00:13:55

tripping and for recreation only,

and again, not that there's anything

279

: 00:13:59

necessarily wrong with that, but I

think that the war on drugs, that whole

280

: 00:14:02

idea around that really stigmatized it.

281

: 00:14:07

And I think it created a lot of fear.

282

: 00:14:09

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

It did create a lot of fear.

283

: 00:14:10

And there was a lot of

misinformation put out there.

284

: 00:14:13

There was this concept.

285

: 00:14:14

It was really around, a lot of it was

around MDMA or, you know, what we have

286

: 00:14:18

called ecstasy and Molly over the years.

287

: 00:14:20

But there was this idea that

like, everyone was doing Molly.

288

: 00:14:23

We were all gonna go crazy and insane.

289

: 00:14:25

The world was gonna, Essentially blow up

because people are Molly all the time.

290

: 00:14:29

And this just really wasn't happening.

291

: 00:14:31

It was a moral panic, essentially akin

like the satanic panic of the: 1980

292

: 00:14:37

where everyone thought there were all

these dead devil worshipper worshippers

293

: 00:14:40

everywhere and that just wasn't true.

294

: 00:14:42

But then there are all

295

: 00:14:43

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

tapes backwards and

296

: 00:14:44

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

exactly.

297

: 00:14:44

There are all of these other

298

: 00:14:47

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

remember it.

299

: 00:14:48

Well,

300

: 00:14:49

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

exactly.

301

: 00:14:50

Same.

302

: 00:14:50

There's all this other misinformation

out there too, like you're going to

303

: 00:14:53

lose your mind if you do psychedelics,

you're going to jump out a window

304

: 00:14:57

and, uh, none of this is true.

305

: 00:14:59

That's just not how it works, and a

lot of it is perpetuated by film and

306

: 00:15:03

television that inappropriately portrays

what doing a psychedelic is like.

307

: 00:15:07

People see people having bad trips in

film, and movies, and they're like,

308

: 00:15:11

oh gosh, I don't want to be like

that, or that someone's just going

309

: 00:15:14

to go crazy for doing this, and it's

just, that's just not the real case,

310

: 00:15:18

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

sure.

311

: 00:15:18

So when it comes down to that, I

mean, I know that people do sometimes

312

: 00:15:23

have bad trips, um, but what is

the difference between, like, the

313

: 00:15:28

reality that you're talking about

and this sort of Hollywood version

314

: 00:15:33

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Right.

315

: 00:15:34

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

worst case scenario?

316

: 00:15:36

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Yeah.

317

: 00:15:36

So people do have bad trips and actually

I think the psychedelic community is

318

: 00:15:39

trying to change the language around

that rather than saying a bad trip.

319

: 00:15:43

We want to say a challenging trip

and that can happen where and it

320

: 00:15:47

might not be the whole journey.

321

: 00:15:49

Like you might have the, it starts

out great and then suddenly you

322

: 00:15:52

get some anxiety or fear that

crops up and you're having too

323

: 00:15:55

many visuals and it's overwhelming.

324

: 00:15:57

But there are ways to be

protective against it.

325

: 00:16:00

And and then the other thing I want

to, and I'll share some of those ways,

326

: 00:16:03

but one thing I want to share too is

that it, you know, usually that if

327

: 00:16:08

you do have a slightly bad experience,

it's just like a temporary thing.

328

: 00:16:12

It's it's just a section of your

journey or your trip that might

329

: 00:16:16

be a little bit like, oh, gosh,

I don't want to do this anymore.

330

: 00:16:18

And I had an experience.

331

: 00:16:20

But it was okay in the long run.

332

: 00:16:21

And most people report, even if they

have a challenging experience, this comes

333

: 00:16:26

from survey results and, medical studies

that are in peer reviewed journals, they

334

: 00:16:29

report that it's still one of the most

profound experiences of their lives.

335

: 00:16:33

And I can totally relate to that

because, my journey was in my trip

336

: 00:16:38

experience was really good for the

most part, but I did have like a 10

337

: 00:16:41

minute time span in there where I was

like, I want to unsubscribe from this

338

: 00:16:44

experience and I don't want to be

339

: 00:16:46

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Yeah.

340

: 00:16:46

I want out.

341

: 00:16:47

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

you're like stuck on the carnival

342

: 00:16:49

ride and but it was a good thing.

343

: 00:16:51

My mind was just showing me what I needed

to know at that moment, cause that's

344

: 00:16:54

how psychedelics work on the brain.

345

: 00:16:56

I know we're going to get into that, but

it was showing me what I needed to know.

346

: 00:16:59

And on the other side of that 10 minute

time span was immense peace and relief.

347

: 00:17:04

And I mean, the most Peace and

euphoria I've ever felt in my life

348

: 00:17:08

was at that other side of that.

349

: 00:17:10

And so I do call it one of the most

profound experiences of my life.

350

: 00:17:14

Now that's not to say that people

don't have really horrible trips

351

: 00:17:16

and they can go really bad.

352

: 00:17:18

Um, but generally you can do a

lot of things to set yourself

353

: 00:17:22

up for a good experience.

354

: 00:17:23

And the context of that in

the psychedelic community, we

355

: 00:17:26

use the terms set and setting.

356

: 00:17:29

So set is your mindset going

into a psychedelic journey.

357

: 00:17:32

And what I mean by that is like, are

you super stressed out or are you

358

: 00:17:36

feeling like, okay, I can do this.

359

: 00:17:38

Do you have you set aside enough

time or do you have like some crazy

360

: 00:17:41

deadline coming up that is the next day?

361

: 00:17:44

And you're worried about that.

362

: 00:17:45

And you've got so many things going

on in your life that you can't really

363

: 00:17:48

take time to actually Do a journey

that's going to set you up, set yourself

364

: 00:17:52

up for a very stressful experience.

365

: 00:17:55

Yeah.

366

: 00:17:55

And then the set, the setting is literally

like what's around your environment,

367

: 00:17:59

what's around you, who's around you.

368

: 00:18:02

And so some of that can be controlled

by you know, finding a safe space or a

369

: 00:18:06

really calming space because some people

react too much to external stimuli.

370

: 00:18:11

So like for me, I would not want

to be on shrooms at a festival.

371

: 00:18:15

Other people are great doing that, but

I know that personally, that's not going

372

: 00:18:19

to set myself up for a good experience.

373

: 00:18:21

I need to be in a calm contained

space for the most part.

374

: 00:18:25

So yeah, there are things like with set

and setting practices that can really set

375

: 00:18:28

you up for the best experience possible.

376

: 00:18:31

And then the other thing

in terms of mindset.

377

: 00:18:33

Instead of setting like this intention

of like, I need to work on this very

378

: 00:18:36

specific thing, uh, which you can do.

379

: 00:18:39

But a lot of people recommend

setting an intention to just

380

: 00:18:43

being open to the experience and

to try to avoid the resistance.

381

: 00:18:47

Cause we do have a tendency to resist

things and that we can't control.

382

: 00:18:52

And there will be elements of your

journey that you can't control.

383

: 00:18:55

And so you have to be just

open to that experience.

384

: 00:18:58

And the more open that you are and the

less resistance that you put up, the

385

: 00:19:01

better your journey will likely be.

386

: 00:19:03

It's just some mini tips, but

there's more on that in the book.

387

: 00:19:06

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Yeah, that's, that I think is the

388

: 00:19:09

part that's the most intimidating

for me is, , the, just the loss of

389

: 00:19:13

control or the lack of control that

you would have going through it.

390

: 00:19:16

Uh, which brings me to my next question.

391

: 00:19:19

The difference between micro dosing

And macro dosing, because for that

392

: 00:19:25

very reason, I'm someone that I'm

very open to the idea of micro

393

: 00:19:28

dosing because it's not this, you

know, big thing that's happening.

394

: 00:19:34

or This kind of concentrated

experience, if you will.

395

: 00:19:37

So tell me the difference between

micro dosing and macro dosing and how

396

: 00:19:42

people can kind of maybe determine

which route is best for them.

397

: 00:19:47

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Yeah, I think a combination of the

398

: 00:19:48

two are great, but macro dosing is

so micro and macro, if you just nail

399

: 00:19:53

down those terms, micro means like

a very mini, tiny dose and macro

400

: 00:19:58

means you're taking a larger dose.

401

: 00:19:59

So I do list all the different doses in

my book, but I also want to mention that

402

: 00:20:05

there's something called a heroic dose.

403

: 00:20:07

So I'll start with that

because that's the biggest.

404

: 00:20:09

So that's going to be

something like over five grams.

405

: 00:20:11

You're going to be.

406

: 00:20:12

extremely tripping.

407

: 00:20:14

It's not recommended to do

that for your first experience.

408

: 00:20:17

So let's just set that aside for now.

409

: 00:20:19

We're not going to, we're not going

to do a heroic dose right this minute.

410

: 00:20:23

Um, and I

411

: 00:20:23

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

you!

412

: 00:20:24

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

that as someone's first choice.

413

: 00:20:26

Um, then like what we think of like

a classic macro dose is going to

414

: 00:20:30

be, so heroic dose is five grams.

415

: 00:20:32

And that classic macro dose will

be somewhere between like two, 3.

416

: 00:20:38

5, even up to three grams.

417

: 00:20:38

four grams, let's just say between

two and four grams is a macro dose.

418

: 00:20:43

And that is when you are going to have

some of these classic experiences while

419

: 00:20:47

tripping, like where you're going to

see some visuals, some different things

420

: 00:20:51

are going to be happening in your brain.

421

: 00:20:52

And we can talk about that, but you

need, you roughly need about let's just

422

: 00:20:56

say six hours to like get your peak

dose and then come down from that dose.

423

: 00:21:01

So you need.

424

: 00:21:02

time to do that.

425

: 00:21:03

You can't, you're not going

to be able to be working and

426

: 00:21:06

you don't want to be working.

427

: 00:21:08

Um, whereas a micro dose

is like a 10th of a gram.

428

: 00:21:13

So compared to like, well, let's say

a macro dose at three grams, think

429

: 00:21:17

of a micro dose as a tenth of a gram.

430

: 00:21:21

And most people don't really, you don't

have any visuals when you take that.

431

: 00:21:25

You're not going to be seeing like

shapes and, geometric patterns or the

432

: 00:21:30

furniture's not going to be breathing.

433

: 00:21:32

That happened to me in my microdose

where the couch was breathing.

434

: 00:21:34

And I was like, no, you're

not supposed to breathe.

435

: 00:21:36

But the microdose, you're

not going to have that.

436

: 00:21:39

You can drive on a microdose.

437

: 00:21:41

You can go to work.

438

: 00:21:43

And so people use micro dosing,

almost like, taking a pill.

439

: 00:21:47

You know, you take a pill every most

of your medications you take every day.

440

: 00:21:52

Now, most people don't

micro dose every single day.

441

: 00:21:54

There are protocols that you follow.

442

: 00:21:57

And those, I list some of

those protocols in the book.

443

: 00:21:59

There's like the Fadiman

protocol and the Stamets.

444

: 00:22:02

stack.

445

: 00:22:03

And that involves taking a micro

dose for like, certain days of the

446

: 00:22:06

week and then taking off a few days.

447

: 00:22:08

And then eventually you have

like a washout week where you

448

: 00:22:11

don't take anything at all.

449

: 00:22:12

And that's just to prevent, um,

building up a tolerance essentially.

450

: 00:22:16

Plus taking a moment to say, do

I need to continue doing this?

451

: 00:22:19

So micro dosing is something that people

do pretty regularly with in certain

452

: 00:22:23

contexts, following certain patterns.

453

: 00:22:26

And then macro dosing is something

that you're not doing regularly because

454

: 00:22:29

who has six hours on a Saturday to,

to trip and prepare for that and like,

455

: 00:22:35

then come down from that and maybe

have another day of rest after that.

456

: 00:22:39

That's like an ordeal,

you know, in a good way.

457

: 00:22:41

But who has time every weekend to do that?

458

: 00:22:43

So you're typically doing

more of a macro dose.

459

: 00:22:46

Um, Like maybe you do it yearly,

maybe you do it twice a year or maybe

460

: 00:22:51

once a quarter, you know, it's going

to depend on the person and doesn't

461

: 00:22:54

have to be at a specific pattern.

462

: 00:22:56

It's just not something that

you're doing every day because we

463

: 00:22:58

would not be functioning in life.

464

: 00:23:00

We were doing that every day.

465

: 00:23:01

So that's important to understand.

466

: 00:23:03

So people use micro dosing more for

having better focus during the day,

467

: 00:23:09

feeling less anxiety, maybe managing

symptoms of depression, things like that.

468

: 00:23:14

And then people use macro dosing

for as a deeper journey to gain

469

: 00:23:18

insights, learn about themselves.

470

: 00:23:21

And again, we can talk about

all the brain science there.

471

: 00:23:24

And I think that it's so macro

dosing can actually be very lasting,

472

: 00:23:27

And that's why you don't also

need to do it very frequently.

473

: 00:23:30

So if you're battling a mental health

condition, and you're, trying to

474

: 00:23:33

combat depression a macrodose we're

learning through research may last I

475

: 00:23:38

mean, you're not continually tripping,

but the benefits last for, um, like

476

: 00:23:42

up to a year, maybe six months.

477

: 00:23:44

It's going to depend on the person

and what they're dealing with.

478

: 00:23:47

But you don't need to macrodose regularly,

but you may choose to microdose.

479

: 00:23:51

And microdosing can really support your

macro, like in between your macrodose.

480

: 00:23:55

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Interesting.

481

: 00:23:56

Yeah.

482

: 00:23:57

That's okay.

483

: 00:23:58

That's good to know.

484

: 00:23:59

I am always curious too.

485

: 00:24:01

Like if someone does the micro dosing

first, is it less likely that they'll

486

: 00:24:07

have the more challenging experiences

with the macro or not necessarily?

487

: 00:24:10

I mean, does it come

at it from a different,

488

: 00:24:13

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

There's not really any literature

489

: 00:24:15

or research on that in terms of

like, if you micro dose, do you

490

: 00:24:18

have a better macro dose experience?

491

: 00:24:20

Um, I, I personally think people

should do, uh, this is just my opinion.

492

: 00:24:25

I love the idea of somebody doing

a macro dose and then using micro

493

: 00:24:30

dosing to support that experience.

494

: 00:24:32

So there's another term, and we'll

get into this later, but there's

495

: 00:24:35

another term in psychedelics.

496

: 00:24:37

in the psychedelic community

called integration.

497

: 00:24:39

And so integration is really

that process of learning from

498

: 00:24:42

your experience with psilocybin.

499

: 00:24:45

And so, um, when you are, you know,

after you've done your trip or

500

: 00:24:49

your journey, you would you could

talk to a psychedelic assisted

501

: 00:24:52

therapist who does integration work.

502

: 00:24:54

There are integration circle,

like communities out there.

503

: 00:24:57

It's like group therapy, essentially

just talking about your experience.

504

: 00:24:59

experience or you can also

just do that yourself.

505

: 00:25:03

You can journal, which is what I

did for my, most of my integration.

506

: 00:25:06

And that was really

beneficial to me as a writer.

507

: 00:25:09

Um, but yeah, so integration is that

process of learning from that experience.

508

: 00:25:13

And so people then use a micro dosing to

tap back into some of their experiences.

509

: 00:25:19

It's not that you're going to be

tripping, but you might, feel,

510

: 00:25:22

you might think back to your.

511

: 00:25:24

While you're microdosing, you might

think back to your macrodose and then

512

: 00:25:26

gain newer insights as you go along.

513

: 00:25:29

So that's just a way that I think

microdosing can support that macrodose.

514

: 00:25:33

Yes.

515

: 00:25:34

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Fascinating.

516

: 00:25:35

That's cool.

517

: 00:25:35

So one question that

just came to mind too.

518

: 00:25:38

Rewinding a little bit to the

discussion about indigenous use of this.

519

: 00:25:43

I, I think it's really important

too, for people to understand the

520

: 00:25:47

perspective of using this as medicine

versus just a recreational drug.

521

: 00:25:52

Right.

522

: 00:25:53

I think that that can perpetuate

that stigma we were talking about.

523

: 00:25:56

And am I correct in saying that

typically this was used medicinally

524

: 00:26:01

or is used medicinally when.

525

: 00:26:03

You know, with, by indigenous

people versus what we think

526

: 00:26:06

of with like a party drug.

527

: 00:26:08

Like

528

: 00:26:08

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Yeah, right.

529

: 00:26:09

So, like, certainly Indigenous communities

do, um, ceremony, and I suppose you could

530

: 00:26:16

think of a ceremony as somewhat of a

party or like a mini festival, but it's

531

: 00:26:20

You know, it's not like we're thinking

about that classic, guy going to a

532

: 00:26:24

festival and being like, I'm on mushrooms.

533

: 00:26:27

You know, it's not like that.

534

: 00:26:28

It's very medicinal.

535

: 00:26:29

Yes.

536

: 00:26:29

People do use in indigenous communities.

537

: 00:26:31

They do use psychedelics medicinally, but

there is a, there can be a recreational

538

: 00:26:36

component for, um, like facilitating

community and connection within you

539

: 00:26:43

know, a tribe, things like that.

540

: 00:26:45

So, so it's a mix of.

541

: 00:26:46

Both.

542

: 00:26:47

But yes, definitely a

major medicinal component.

543

: 00:26:51

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Cool.

544

: 00:26:51

Thanks for clarifying that.

545

: 00:26:52

Yeah.

546

: 00:26:52

I think it's an important distinction.

547

: 00:26:54

So tell us a little bit how psilocybin

actually works and why it can

548

: 00:26:59

be an effective tool for healing

and specifically behavior change.

549

: 00:27:04

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Yeah.

550

: 00:27:05

So I'll walk through a

few different concepts.

551

: 00:27:06

My favorite is, well, I have

several favorites, but one that

552

: 00:27:09

really helps people understand is

the, it's called the rebus model.

553

: 00:27:13

And this was created by Dr.

554

: 00:27:15

Robin Carhart Harris and Dr.

555

: 00:27:16

Carl J.

556

: 00:27:17

Friston.

557

: 00:27:17

They're prolific, uh, scientific

researchers in the psychedelic space.

558

: 00:27:21

I just like to give credit

where credit is due.

559

: 00:27:23

So people don't think I came

up with it, but so it's rebus.

560

: 00:27:27

And so what these researchers are

essentially saying, they have a great

561

: 00:27:30

analogy for it, but what they're

essentially saying is that so we think

562

: 00:27:33

back to childhood, our minds were super

flexible in terms of we hadn't formed our

563

: 00:27:38

identities yet or about we have, Formed

our beliefs about how the world around us

564

: 00:27:44

operates that comes later in adulthood.

565

: 00:27:46

I mean, of course we start to develop our

identities, especially in adolescence, and

566

: 00:27:51

we learn about the world in adolescence.

567

: 00:27:53

But by the time we're in

adulthood, our minds are have

568

: 00:27:56

become very rigid, which sounds.

569

: 00:27:58

weird, but childhood flexible

and then adulthood very rigid.

570

: 00:28:03

And that's simply because those

belief patterns about ourselves

571

: 00:28:06

become very solidified and locked in

place, and they're hard to change.

572

: 00:28:10

And then same thing with how

the world around us operates.

573

: 00:28:13

It just kind of gets locked in.

574

: 00:28:15

And so this is where sometimes depression

can crop up, eating disorders can crop up.

575

: 00:28:20

And of course, this can happen

in, the teenage years as well.

576

: 00:28:22

But it's just as we grow

older, we get that rigidity.

577

: 00:28:25

Okay.

578

: 00:28:25

And so the analogy that I love is we can

think about our minds when we're in a

579

: 00:28:30

normal state of consciousness as being

super rigid, almost like a frozen pond.

580

: 00:28:35

So if you think of your mind,

it's just like ice, right?

581

: 00:28:37

Now, if you were going to try to take

a new belief, let's say you're trying

582

: 00:28:41

to change, um, a thought pattern

or just a belief about yourself.

583

: 00:28:46

Maybe you have social anxiety and

you're trying to change this idea that

584

: 00:28:50

you're not good in social settings.

585

: 00:28:52

If you were to think of that.

586

: 00:28:53

beliefs as a rock, and you

try to drop it on that frozen

587

: 00:28:57

pond, it doesn't gain entry.

588

: 00:28:58

It just goes thunk, and nothing happens.

589

: 00:29:00

Maybe it cracks the ice a

little bit, but that's it.

590

: 00:29:03

Now, when you're on a psychedelic,

this is where the relaxed beliefs

591

: 00:29:06

under psychedelics comes in, then

we have almost like a thawed pond.

592

: 00:29:09

So now you have water.

593

: 00:29:10

Now you take that rock in the form of

a new belief, or the new belief in the

594

: 00:29:14

form of a rock is what I'm trying to say.

595

: 00:29:15

You drop it in, and it, create it gains

entry and it creates this ripple effect.

596

: 00:29:21

And so now you've gotten a new belief

into your mind and it's going, it's likely

597

: 00:29:26

to stick when you're on the psychedelic.

598

: 00:29:28

And so why does this happen?

599

: 00:29:31

Well, in a normal state of consciousness,

we have almost like this hierarchy of.

600

: 00:29:35

beliefs.

601

: 00:29:35

And so if you think about like a

corporate structure, we can think of

602

: 00:29:39

our beliefs is like this corporation

and you've got your CEOs at the top

603

: 00:29:43

and they're very bossy and domineering.

604

: 00:29:44

And then they don't listen to

any like, employee that's like

605

: 00:29:47

lower on the ladder, right?

606

: 00:29:49

They're like, Oh, those

people don't matter.

607

: 00:29:51

And so we can think of those as like

those beliefs that we really want to,

608

: 00:29:54

we want to add them to our mind, but

our brains will not let us because

609

: 00:29:57

we've got these domineering CEOs.

610

: 00:29:59

Now, when we're on a psychedelic, that

hierarchy just sort of goes away, and so

611

: 00:30:04

that the employees, the beliefs on the

lower end of the ladder, they they get

612

: 00:30:08

a chance to sort of climb up that ladder

and make, make changes in your mind.

613

: 00:30:15

About certain things.

614

: 00:30:16

So again, going back to this idea

of like we had social anxiety or

615

: 00:30:19

we're trying to change that, that

whatever beliefs are kind of rooting

616

: 00:30:22

you in that it's really hard to do

in a normal state of consciousness.

617

: 00:30:26

But with that relaxed beliefs under

psychedelics, it's much easier to

618

: 00:30:29

change when you're on a psychedelic.

619

: 00:30:31

So this is really why Psychedelics

work, especially for changing, making

620

: 00:30:36

behavior change, but also we have this

increased level of neuroplasticity

621

: 00:30:40

after using a psychedelic.

622

: 00:30:42

And so, um, neuroplasticity, if

I were to try to explain that, I

623

: 00:30:46

just say it's like your brain is

sort of blooming and flowering.

624

: 00:30:49

We're growing new dendrites and synapses.

625

: 00:30:52

And so, we can really lean into making

behavior change and implementing behavior

626

: 00:30:57

change after using a psychedelic.

627

: 00:30:59

So if you use psilocybin and you are,

you're, one of your goals is maybe I want

628

: 00:31:04

to quit drinking or I want to drink less.

629

: 00:31:06

This is a great time to start

implementing that behavior change.

630

: 00:31:10

It's not going to happen just

automatically because you did psilocybin.

631

: 00:31:13

You need to lean into you know, now make

some of those behavior changes of like,

632

: 00:31:18

okay, I'm going to try to just have three

drinks a week instead of 10, or whatever

633

: 00:31:21

it is, like just making up a number.

634

: 00:31:23

But you may find that you don't even

want to reach for that the drink anymore.

635

: 00:31:28

It just, but you have to do

some of that work as well.

636

: 00:31:31

The other concept I want to bring up is

called it's called the helioscope effect.

637

: 00:31:36

So what this means is that, so

this researcher, his name is Dr.

638

: 00:31:40

Gregor Hassler and he's at Freiburg

University, I think that's in Germany,

639

: 00:31:44

but he came up with this concept called

the helioscope effect to explain why

640

: 00:31:49

when we go on a psychedelic are we

able to reprocess trauma and deal

641

: 00:31:53

with trauma a little bit better.

642

: 00:31:54

So the issue is that in In normal

states of consciousness, our

643

: 00:31:58

trauma is really triggering.

644

: 00:31:59

We avoid thinking about it.

645

: 00:32:00

We don't want to think about traumatic

events because they trigger us and

646

: 00:32:03

make us feel really uncomfortable.

647

: 00:32:05

Our heart rate rises and we just get

like, Oh, I don't want to deal with this.

648

: 00:32:09

Um, but when you're on a psychedelic, we

have what's called this helioscope effect.

649

: 00:32:13

And a helioscope is an, in

science is an instrument with it.

650

: 00:32:17

Scientists use to look at the sun because

You don't want to be looking at the sun,

651

: 00:32:20

you know, directly and pro tip there.

652

: 00:32:23

But, um, because you'll get burned, right?

653

: 00:32:25

But the same concept

applies to our trauma.

654

: 00:32:27

We don't want to look at our trauma

in a normal state of consciousness all

655

: 00:32:30

the time, because it does freak us out.

656

: 00:32:33

But when you are on a psychedelic, it's

like you have this helioscope instrument.

657

: 00:32:37

It allows you to see your trauma from

a safe distance and through a new lens

658

: 00:32:42

without getting burned, essentially,

and, uh, and then it gives you this.

659

: 00:32:47

new filter to reprocess your trauma

that you wouldn't have access to

660

: 00:32:52

in a normal state of consciousness.

661

: 00:32:54

So that can be really highly beneficial

for people dealing with trauma is

662

: 00:32:57

that beautiful helioscope effect.

663

: 00:33:00

Now, of course, I do want to correlate

this back to our discussion about bad

664

: 00:33:04

or challenging trips, because initially

when your mind is so that, you know,

665

: 00:33:09

when you take a psychedelic, especially

like with psilocybin, it's going to do,

666

: 00:33:14

it's going to work on your brain, on the

things that are in your brain already.

667

: 00:33:18

So it's not giving you new ideas,

unless you're like, trying to, add

668

: 00:33:22

a new idea to your mind, of course.

669

: 00:33:24

But it's working on things that

you need to work on, because our

670

: 00:33:27

subconscious knows What's up in there?

671

: 00:33:29

You know, it's like, hey, you

need to work on this, right?

672

: 00:33:32

So that's what's happening

when you take a psychedelic.

673

: 00:33:34

The mushroom is going to take you

where you need to go the most.

674

: 00:33:37

But that can feel uncomfortable at first

just because like our normal resistance

675

: 00:33:42

in everyday life would be like, Oh,

if someone's going to talk about a

676

: 00:33:46

sexual assault and that's triggering

for you, then you're like nope, nope.

677

: 00:33:51

But on a psychedelic, you, um, you

again, may have that anxiety first

678

: 00:33:57

come up, but if you sit with it and

avoid that resistance, you'll be

679

: 00:34:01

able to hopefully view that trauma

from that safe new lens, you know?

680

: 00:34:05

So I, I just love the helioscope effect

because it just makes so much sense.

681

: 00:34:09

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

It's fascinating.

682

: 00:34:10

And it reminds me, you know,

I, I talked with Nicole field.

683

: 00:34:14

She came on and talked about

somatic stress release work.

684

: 00:34:18

And, we talked about how

the body stores everything.

685

: 00:34:22

People may be familiar with that

book, The Body Keeps the Score.

686

: 00:34:24

I mean, we know now that our experiences

are stored on a physiological level.

687

: 00:34:29

So is that part of what's working

here is that these things that are

688

: 00:34:33

sort of stored in our minds or bodies

somewhere are now coming to the surface?

689

: 00:34:38

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Yeah, I think one of the things to

690

: 00:34:39

remember is that if you've had, and I'll

talk about this later too, if you've had

691

: 00:34:43

adverse childhood experiences or what

the scientific community, it calls ACEs.

692

: 00:34:49

So these are anything that could have

happened to you in childhood, like,

693

: 00:34:52

uh, abuse, neglect living through.

694

: 00:34:54

Extreme poverty, systemic racism in your

community, having a violent household,

695

: 00:34:59

parents who were very volatile, a parent

who was incarcerated, severe childhood

696

: 00:35:04

illness, losing a parent, you know,

they, somebody died in your family,

697

: 00:35:08

these are adverse childhood experiences

and it's they're very traumatic and they

698

: 00:35:13

cause, they actually cause changes in

our body to our actual stress response.

699

: 00:35:18

So we have the, uh, you know,

our fight or flight system.

700

: 00:35:21

It messes with that fight or flight

system and changes how we use

701

: 00:35:25

cortisol, how we're using glucose,

insulin, all of these things.

702

: 00:35:28

It permanently changes that.

703

: 00:35:31

And so, yes, that is, those traumas are

stored in your body to a certain degree.

704

: 00:35:36

And when we use psilocybin, if we're,

doing this in a very therapeutic

705

: 00:35:42

context, trying to work on, Stress

or trauma or depression or anxiety.

706

: 00:35:47

It's almost like it can reset that or

it can help reset that stress response

707

: 00:35:53

to a certain degree so that it can

maybe calm that fight or flight system

708

: 00:35:57

down a bit because it's so hyperactive

and people who've experienced trauma

709

: 00:36:02

and, to put this into context, one

in six adults has experienced stress.

710

: 00:36:06

For or more adverse childhood experiences.

711

: 00:36:09

So that's an alarming amount of trauma

that just the world is carrying around.

712

: 00:36:13

And so a lot of us are walking

around with an active, highly

713

: 00:36:18

more activated stress response.

714

: 00:36:20

And It, it's harmful.

715

: 00:36:22

It's all, it's harmful to

our, it's nobody's fault.

716

: 00:36:25

It's just, it's harmful

to our metabolic health.

717

: 00:36:27

Um, so it can change the way that

we, again, process insulin and

718

: 00:36:32

glucose, which can lead to obesity,

it can lead to heart disease.

719

: 00:36:37

High cholesterol, all of.

720

: 00:36:39

factors that are related

to our metabolic health.

721

: 00:36:42

And then, we're going to talk

about menopause later too.

722

: 00:36:44

But the, another thing just to

think about in terms of with the

723

: 00:36:48

female body, when we've had four or

more ACEs, that is likely to give

724

: 00:36:53

us a worsened menopause symptoms.

725

: 00:36:55

So things like hot flashes

and it's because it's all

726

: 00:36:57

tied to that metabolic health.

727

: 00:37:00

So trauma has a very

lasting effect on our lives.

728

: 00:37:03

And it does seem like

psilocybin helps with that.

729

: 00:37:06

We've gotten new research that

has just come out this fall that

730

: 00:37:09

shows that psilocybin does reduce

that psychological response to

731

: 00:37:14

our adverse childhood experiences.

732

: 00:37:15

So I'm planning to write about that

for an article at some point, but

733

: 00:37:18

just wanted to bring that up because

it's so important to think about

734

: 00:37:21

what, how can we work with our trauma?

735

: 00:37:24

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Yeah, that's amazing.

736

: 00:37:25

And.

737

: 00:37:25

Having done talk therapy for years,

like, it's great to get things off your

738

: 00:37:28

chest and have someone to talk to, but

it really wasn't until I started seeing

739

: 00:37:32

a therapist who uses somatic modalities

that I felt like, okay, through this

740

: 00:37:38

work, I'm, it's not erasing memories of

bad things that happened, but they just

741

: 00:37:42

don't carry that emotional charge anymore.

742

: 00:37:44

They don't have that

power over me anymore.

743

: 00:37:46

So I think that that's a really cool

thing to dive into, from any with any

744

: 00:37:51

modality, it can be really important

because that's what kind of enables you to

745

: 00:37:56

move forward and grow and change behavior

change, or just be free of the emotional

746

: 00:38:02

burden that those things can put on us.

747

: 00:38:04

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Yes,

748

: 00:38:05

absolutely.

749

: 00:38:07

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Yeah.

750

: 00:38:07

And I really want to dive into the

metabolic health piece of this,

751

: 00:38:11

because that's something that

I'm always yammering on about.

752

: 00:38:14

My listeners and my clients get sick of

it, but I'm always saying, look, if you're

753

: 00:38:17

in a constant state of that, you know,

activated sympathetic nervous system.

754

: 00:38:22

Fight or fight response, like your

body doesn't want to burn fat.

755

: 00:38:26

Your body is going to

conserve real efficiently.

756

: 00:38:29

Like your stress hormones are

going to be elevated all the time.

757

: 00:38:31

Like your cells don't understand the

difference between constant chronic stress

758

: 00:38:36

and continually running from a predator

or continually being in a famine state.

759

: 00:38:42

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Right.

760

: 00:38:42

Yeah.

761

: 00:38:43

When we have a stress response,

like let's say that you're driving

762

: 00:38:48

in your car and you almost get into

a, like a fender bender, right?

763

: 00:38:51

You're, you have that, everyone

knows that surge of adrenaline

764

: 00:38:53

that you get from that moment.

765

: 00:38:55

And there are many other

things to think about.

766

: 00:38:56

And of course, that surge of adrenaline

is there historically to protect us.

767

: 00:39:01

So, back in the day of, caveman

days, there were men running

768

: 00:39:05

from tigers or whatever.

769

: 00:39:07

I don't know what predators were all

out there then, but they were there.

770

: 00:39:10

And so you needed that surge of

adrenaline to power your body.

771

: 00:39:14

And people don't understand

what that is actually doing.

772

: 00:39:17

When you get that cortisol release and

the norepinephrine, it drives glucose

773

: 00:39:23

into your bloodstream so that you have

the energy to run from the threat.

774

: 00:39:27

Right.

775

: 00:39:27

But.

776

: 00:39:28

In our normal states, we, in

everyday life, we aren't under threat

777

: 00:39:32

running from predators generally.

778

: 00:39:34

I mean, maybe sometimes, but

it's there for you to have a good

779

: 00:39:37

reaction in that near fender bender.

780

: 00:39:40

But if we're constantly in that heightened

state of stress and and Feeling like we're

781

: 00:39:45

under threat, which many people who've

experienced trauma constantly feel that

782

: 00:39:49

it's hyper vigilance were hyper aware that

we're like, Oh, we were under threat at

783

: 00:39:53

any moment that's constantly happening.

784

: 00:39:56

You're just getting this constant glucose

dump into your bloodstream and it, you

785

: 00:40:00

know, then that affects insulin release

and and then that can lead to obesity and

786

: 00:40:05

other things with metabolic health too.

787

: 00:40:07

Sorry to take it on a metabolic

health tangent, but I'm also very

788

: 00:40:10

passionate about metabolic health.

789

: 00:40:12

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Yes.

790

: 00:40:13

Absolutely.

791

: 00:40:14

I am too.

792

: 00:40:14

And I think that it's so crucial because

again, twice as many women will be

793

: 00:40:18

diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease as men.

794

: 00:40:21

We now know, I mean, they're calling

Alzheimer's disease type three diabetes.

795

: 00:40:24

We know that there is a direct link

now between glucose dysregulation

796

: 00:40:29

and insulin resistance.

797

: 00:40:30

and brain health.

798

: 00:40:31

And it starts in middle age, not old age.

799

: 00:40:34

You know, so most of my

listeners out there are going

800

: 00:40:37

to be in their thirties and up.

801

: 00:40:38

I mean, this is the time to start

paying attention to these things

802

: 00:40:41

and doing this work and it, yes,

nutrition and exercise matter.

803

: 00:40:46

But I think that the emotional

work is even more of a

804

: 00:40:49

foundational piece than that.

805

: 00:40:50

I think that it's, and not

everyone's going to be.

806

: 00:40:52

So I'm not sure if it's something that

you're comfortable doing, you know,

807

: 00:40:54

using psychedelics, but whether that's

one route for you or not, there are

808

: 00:40:58

plenty of other options out there.

809

: 00:40:59

And I think that it's just such a

crucial piece because that stress

810

: 00:41:03

response, especially if it's

an ongoing thing in your body,

811

: 00:41:06

it's going to affect your health

812

: 00:41:07

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Yes.

813

: 00:41:08

Yeah.

814

: 00:41:08

In

815

: 00:41:08

the long

816

: 00:41:09

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

in every possible way.

817

: 00:41:11

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

absolutely.

818

: 00:41:12

And, to your point, you were talking

about dementia being, more prevalent

819

: 00:41:16

in women and it really starts to

happen as we get into perimenopause and

820

: 00:41:20

menopause with that estrogen drop that

puts us at risk for dementia processes.

821

: 00:41:25

It changes are the way our body

handles glucose and insulin.

822

: 00:41:30

So it's just this compounding factor

is going through that menopause time.

823

: 00:41:35

It's not that the menopause is bad.

824

: 00:41:37

It's just a natural part of life.

825

: 00:41:39

But we do need to be much more vigilant

about our metabolic health as we get

826

: 00:41:43

into That era of our lives because of

all the risk factors that crop up because

827

: 00:41:47

of the decline in estrogen including

heart disease and one thing I'll take

828

: 00:41:51

it on just this mini tangent But I think

you know heart disease is a problem for

829

: 00:41:56

women But the medic like people don't

really know about that I would say that

830

: 00:42:00

in general people think of like heart

attacks and stroke is happening to men

831

: 00:42:04

more often But it is happening to women.

832

: 00:42:05

It's happening to women in middle age and

so if you've got a heart condition or if

833

: 00:42:09

you've Got anything that's cropping up as

a heart symptom, definitely talk to your

834

: 00:42:13

doctor about it and be persistent about it

because women are dying of heart attacks.

835

: 00:42:18

They are having strokes and we are,

more at risk and the common thing that

836

: 00:42:22

happens is if you go in and you say,

Oh, I'm having heart palpitations.

837

: 00:42:26

What is your doctor going to say?

838

: 00:42:27

Oh, you have anxiety and that

839

: 00:42:29

may not be the case.

840

: 00:42:30

It may just be that you are having

an arrhythmia or something and

841

: 00:42:33

it needs to be taken care of.

842

: 00:42:35

Just wanted to bring that up.

843

: 00:42:37

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

I'm glad that you brought it up.

844

: 00:42:38

That actually happened

to me a couple years ago.

845

: 00:42:40

I was having full blown like, and.

846

: 00:42:43

We've only known recently how

differently symptoms present in women

847

: 00:42:47

for heart attacks they do in men.

848

: 00:42:49

You know, We're used to hearing

about the chest pain, the left arm

849

: 00:42:51

tingling, numbness, That is very

typical for men, whereas women,

850

: 00:42:56

they might feel flu symptoms.

851

: 00:42:57

might feel, you know, like nausea or

sudden fatigue, all of these things.

852

: 00:43:03

And yeah, I had that happen

to me a couple of years ago.

853

: 00:43:06

It was not a heart attack, but thankfully

I had a functional medicine female

854

: 00:43:10

doctor who knew What to look for.

855

: 00:43:13

And I had to go through a

ridiculous battery of tests.

856

: 00:43:16

But yeah, there were some irregularities

going on there and it was really

857

: 00:43:20

lucky that we figured it If we

alone, there could have been a real

858

: 00:43:24

a real problem

859

: 00:43:25

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Yeah.

860

: 00:43:25

I'm so sorry.

861

: 00:43:27

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Oh, thanks.

862

: 00:43:28

You know, It's I'm grateful it now because

it it was a wake up call for me And I

863

: 00:43:32

was under way too much Not necessarily

because oh my god, my life right now is

864

: 00:43:36

so stressful But like you say my nervous

system was just sort of stuck in this

865

: 00:43:41

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

hmm.

866

: 00:43:41

It can happen.

867

: 00:43:42

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

And I couldn't really shift into that

868

: 00:43:45

parasympathetic place of, you know,

what we call rest and digest where I

869

: 00:43:50

could truly relax and turn off truly

like my body and brain did not feel

870

: 00:43:56

fully safe to do that.

871

: 00:43:57

And so it was a real, it really

rattled me and kind of said, look, you

872

: 00:44:02

might practice what you preach when

it comes to fitness and nutrition,

873

: 00:44:04

but when it comes to your mental

wellbeing and your emotional health.

874

: 00:44:09

Something's

875

: 00:44:09

got to

876

: 00:44:10

give, it's got to shift and I

really, we have to prioritize that.

877

: 00:44:15

And that is something that in all the

work that I do with my clients, I'm

878

: 00:44:18

constantly reiterating, like, look, I

can give you the best tools in the world.

879

: 00:44:22

I can give you the best

diet, the best workout plan.

880

: 00:44:25

You might do it to a T, but if

your emotional you know, emotional,

881

: 00:44:30

spiritual, mental health is suffering,

or you're in this chronic stress Guess

882

: 00:44:36

what?

883

: 00:44:38

You're still gonna

884

: 00:44:38

struggle a

885

: 00:44:39

lot.

886

: 00:44:40

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

It's still going to affect you.

887

: 00:44:41

Of course.

888

: 00:44:42

It's so important.

889

: 00:44:45

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Yeah, absolutely.

890

: 00:44:46

Um, you had mentioned to me too we

were talking about, because obviously,

891

: 00:44:51

you know, behavior change is a big

Piece of look if you know, we're

892

: 00:44:55

coming into perimenopause or middle

age and we're needing to make changes

893

: 00:44:59

to our lifestyle behaviors Maybe

we are having to address address.

894

: 00:45:05

Excuse me addictive behaviors be

it alcohol sugar, you know Whatever

895

: 00:45:09

that might be for some people.

896

: 00:45:10

It's exercise

897

: 00:45:11

over exercising Yeah, but you had

mentioned to me that there are

898

: 00:45:15

actual clinical trials that talk

about how psilocybin can help

899

: 00:45:20

with addictive

900

: 00:45:21

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Yeah.

901

: 00:45:22

So there are a few clinical

trials out there going right now.

902

: 00:45:25

Um, And one is for alcohol use disorder.

903

: 00:45:27

And there were actually probably

several clinical trials related

904

: 00:45:30

to alcohol use disorder.

905

: 00:45:31

Others are for opioid use disorder.

906

: 00:45:34

And there's even, there were even studying

psilocybin for, um, smoking cessation.

907

: 00:45:39

So obviously smoking is highly and,

uh, has damaging health effects.

908

: 00:45:43

But what people don't realize is that

the, um, the female body is different

909

: 00:45:47

than the, I mean, the male body.

910

: 00:45:48

In general, the female body is

different than the male body.

911

: 00:45:50

But when it comes to smoking

cessation, for example, we have women

912

: 00:45:53

have different nicotine receptors.

913

: 00:45:55

Like our nicotine receptors are

different than in the male body.

914

: 00:45:58

And if you think about all those smoking

cessation products that um, you know,

915

: 00:46:00

uh, nicotine gum or patches, they

all work on the nicotine receptors.

916

: 00:46:05

And typically, I mean, yes, they can work

for women, but it's, it makes, it's still

917

: 00:46:09

harder for women to quit because of the

difference in the nicotine receptors.

918

: 00:46:13

And a lot of those products.

919

: 00:46:14

don't work adequately for women.

920

: 00:46:17

So I'm really excited that

psilocybin is being studied for that.

921

: 00:46:20

But a that, um, the addiction, I would say

the the literature surrounding addictive

922

: 00:46:25

behaviors and psilocybin, like how can

that help kind of goes back to that rebus.

923

: 00:46:30

model why am I, why am I

addicted to the substance?

924

: 00:46:33

Why am using this?

925

: 00:46:34

Is it is it a behavior

thing that I can change?

926

: 00:46:36

And, you know, by incorporating

new belief systems into your

927

: 00:46:40

mind, can you make those changes?

928

: 00:46:42

So certainly related to that, but

there's also a lot that happens in our

929

: 00:46:46

during, um, you know, using psilocybin,

especially in a therapeutic setting.

930

: 00:46:51

That works on different brain networks.

931

: 00:46:53

we have in our, in our mind or

in our brains, there's something

932

: 00:46:56

called a default mode network.

933

: 00:46:58

And that is a network of brain

regions that work together to

934

: 00:47:02

form like our sense of self.

935

: 00:47:04

It's concerned with our like

memories, anything, if you're

936

: 00:47:07

thinking about the past or the future.

937

: 00:47:09

future your mind's kind of wandering.

938

: 00:47:11

It's very active.

939

: 00:47:12

It also involves our empathy,

including empathy for ourselves,

940

: 00:47:16

but also empathy for others.

941

: 00:47:17

So it's just really

important brain network.

942

: 00:47:20

And so there's a lot happening with

that network when you're on psilocybin

943

: 00:47:25

that can be beneficial for um, it's

it's interesting and I like to explore.

944

: 00:47:29

Explain So, um, again, this is a

brain network of brain regions that

945

: 00:47:32

work together, but when you're on

psilocybin, um, it changes what's

946

: 00:47:36

connected and what's not connected.

947

: 00:47:38

So it's like things that are normally

connected in the default moat network

948

: 00:47:41

will disconnect, and then things

that are normally not will connect.

949

: 00:47:44

So I, I liken it to like thinking about

you've got an outlet in your house and

950

: 00:47:48

we've all Take all the cords out and then

plug them back into different outlets.

951

: 00:47:53

I like to think of it that

way That's what's happening.

952

: 00:47:55

And so there's a lot of stuff that could

be going on with addictive behaviors That

953

: 00:48:00

could be changed on the other side of

it Now, of course your brain goes back

954

: 00:48:04

to normal connectivity once you're off

of psilocybin I don't want people to be

955

: 00:48:07

freaked out that your brain's going to be

all scrambled or something but it it does

956

: 00:48:11

have these beneficial effects in terms

of Again, I'm dealing with some of that

957

: 00:48:16

rigidity that we have in a normal state

of consciousness, getting new beliefs

958

: 00:48:20

in there and then working on patterns

that are really no longer serving you.

959

: 00:48:24

So, you know, if I'm sitting here

drinking three glasses of wine a

960

: 00:48:28

night, that's not healthy for me

and it's not really serving me well.

961

: 00:48:32

I know I want to change it,

but it's hard to change.

962

: 00:48:35

And so I think that some of

that, that relaxed beliefs

963

: 00:48:38

under psychedelics takes effect.

964

: 00:48:40

for these addictive behaviors.

965

: 00:48:41

But people are finding in clinical

trials that it reduces their heavy

966

: 00:48:45

drinking, the number of heavy

drinking days that they have.

967

: 00:48:48

Um, I, I'm a, I'm I'm a classic example.

968

: 00:48:50

I did, um, uh, macro dose over a year

ago and I've dramatically cut back

969

: 00:48:55

on drinking, like, you know, I would

probably be having one or two glasses

970

: 00:48:59

a night of wine and now like, I'll go

like a week without touching it or, you

971

: 00:49:04

know, many days without touching it.

972

: 00:49:06

It's just not something I'm reaching to.

973

: 00:49:08

Constantly, but I've done work on that.

974

: 00:49:10

You know, I focused on like, I drinking?

975

: 00:49:12

What, What am I doing that for?

976

: 00:49:13

know, this isn't great for my liver.

977

: 00:49:16

So I've really

978

: 00:49:18

been

979

: 00:49:19

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Or your hormones or your

980

: 00:49:20

brain.

981

: 00:49:20

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Yeah, well, it's not great for anything.

982

: 00:49:21

But, um, you know, yeah, I'm

not against wine and It's great.

983

: 00:49:25

But, um, it, it is something that I

think women tend to turn to quite a

984

: 00:49:31

bit, especially middle age when we're

struggling with so many different things.

985

: 00:49:34

We've got our careers.

986

: 00:49:35

We've got, you know, there are

people that have, I don't have

987

: 00:49:37

kids myself, but other people do.

988

: 00:49:39

And, so there's kids, there's

careers And And then something I'm

989

: 00:49:42

dealing with too in my life right

now is caring for aging parents.

990

: 00:49:45

And that's really stressful.

991

: 00:49:46

And if you've got all things going on at

992

: 00:49:48

once,

993

: 00:49:49

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

So many of us are at that

994

: 00:49:50

stage.

995

: 00:49:50

It's a

996

: 00:49:51

lot.

997

: 00:49:52

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

And so we're we're classically going to

998

: 00:49:53

be reaching for things that numb us out.

999

: 00:49:55

And that might be ultra processed foods.

: 1000

00:49:57,556 --> 00:50:00,096

It um, you know, cigarettes.

: 1001

00:50:00,106 --> 00:50:02,046

It might online shopping.

: 1002

00:50:02,076 --> 00:50:05,366

know, it could be anything that you're

using to sort of numb yourself, but

: 1003

00:50:05,366 --> 00:50:09,756

there's so much science coming out now

and research that psilocybin can help

: 1004

00:50:09,756 --> 00:50:11,326

with some, making some of these behavior

: 1005

00:50:13,456 --> 00:50:15,086

-: 0720

You know, we didn't talk about this

: 1006

00:50:15,096 --> 00:50:17,136

previously, but I'm really curious.

: 1007

00:50:17,186 --> 00:50:22,976

So as someone who was recently, like

less than a year ago, diagnosed with

: 1008

00:50:23,006 --> 00:50:28,076

ADHD, and I know it's often, it's more

often diagnosed in women once they

: 1009

00:50:28,196 --> 00:50:31,356

reach perimenopause because the hormonal

changes and the drops in estrogen,

: 1010

00:50:31,366 --> 00:50:33,396

things can exacerbate the symptoms.

: 1011

00:50:33,796 --> 00:50:36,226

Um, for me, I had many of

the symptoms my whole life.

: 1012

00:50:36,226 --> 00:50:39,066

I just didn't realize that

that was going on, but curious.

: 1013

00:50:40,626 --> 00:50:43,856

Psilocybin help at all

with that aspect of it?

: 1014

00:50:43,856 --> 00:50:45,996

And maybe you want to table

that till we get into the

: 1015

00:50:46,356 --> 00:50:48,506

menopause section of the talk

: 1016

00:50:48,516 --> 00:50:49,316

today, but I'm

: 1017

00:50:49,316 --> 00:50:49,956

so curious.

: 1018

00:50:49,986 --> 00:50:50,436

-: 0720

No, I'm.

: 1019

00:50:50,816 --> 00:50:55,086

Happy to talk about ADHD and then

we can get to menopause later.

: 1020

00:50:55,096 --> 00:51:00,016

Um, But yeah, so with ADHD, a lot of

people are using microdosing to help with

: 1021

00:51:00,016 --> 00:51:05,426

that because microdosing is, a lot of

ADHD out there are a stimulant, right?

: 1022

00:51:05,466 --> 00:51:11,586

And so, microdosing, um, psilocybin is, it

does have a stimulant and so it can help

: 1023

00:51:11,671 --> 00:51:13,736

focus, like cutting out all the noise.

: 1024

00:51:14,341 --> 00:51:17,921

Um, and the other thing that, um,

so I have a whole chapter on this.

: 1025

00:51:17,931 --> 00:51:22,701

There's a woman that I interviewed

who had, she has severe ADHD.

: 1026

00:51:22,731 --> 00:51:26,081

And so she said she's not

necessarily using microdosing as

: 1027

00:51:26,081 --> 00:51:30,821

like a tool for that, but she's

done macro doses to help with ADHD.

: 1028

00:51:30,821 --> 00:51:32,397

And one of the things that

she mentioned that was just.

: 1029

00:51:32,712 --> 00:51:36,212

I felt like this was really profound

was if you've, if you've struggled

: 1030

00:51:36,212 --> 00:51:41,556

with ADHD all your life, or I mean,

just really point in time, um, it

: 1031

00:51:41,556 --> 00:51:45,546

can be a little traumatic because,

um, the world expects you to operate

: 1032

00:51:45,556 --> 00:51:47,256

in like a quote unquote normal way.

: 1033

00:51:47,266 --> 00:51:48,226

You're supposed to be organized.

: 1034

00:51:48,226 --> 00:51:51,981

You're supposed to, you know, Have

a schedule or do this and do that.

: 1035

00:51:52,011 --> 00:51:54,321

It's a lot of things to keep of and do.

: 1036

00:51:54,361 --> 00:51:56,891

And the ADHD brain just

does not work that way.

: 1037

00:51:57,221 --> 00:51:59,841

But the the world expects

you to work that way.

: 1038

00:52:00,041 --> 00:52:04,431

And so that can create a lot of

trauma for the individual, especially

: 1039

00:52:04,441 --> 00:52:07,741

children when they have ADHD and all

the adults in their lives are like,

: 1040

00:52:08,011 --> 00:52:11,471

you know, telling them that they're bad

because they're not behaving properly

: 1041

00:52:11,471 --> 00:52:12,991

or whatever is expected of them.

: 1042

00:52:13,261 --> 00:52:13,371

them.

: 1043

00:52:13,701 --> 00:52:17,561

And it's just not feasible for many

people with ADHD to behave certain

: 1044

00:52:17,561 --> 00:52:18,711

world expects them to behave.

: 1045

00:52:18,711 --> 00:52:25,441

So she was using psilocybin to, um, that

or work on that trauma that resulted

: 1046

00:52:25,441 --> 00:52:29,241

from childhood of, you know, where adults

are just expecting her teachers, parents

: 1047

00:52:29,241 --> 00:52:31,021

expecting her to be a certain way.

: 1048

00:52:31,041 --> 00:52:34,981

So I think that's a fascinating

component and I'm hoping researchers

: 1049

00:52:35,011 --> 00:52:37,401

do do some more studying with ADHD.

: 1050

00:52:37,421 --> 00:52:41,025

for psilocybin to see what are

some results that might crop up.

: 1051

00:52:41,677 --> 00:52:44,294

-: 0720

love that because you, and am I correct?

: 1052

00:52:44,304 --> 00:52:49,659

Is, Is it less, I mean, when we're

talking about any pharmaceutical,

: 1053

00:52:49,659 --> 00:52:50,709

there are always downsides.

: 1054

00:52:52,074 --> 00:53:00,354

So for rather be able to use

a plant and, you know, avoid

: 1055

00:53:00,454 --> 00:53:04,614

potential side effects that a drug

or pharmaceutical may have for me.

: 1056

00:53:04,614 --> 00:53:09,414

I mean, for example, like I use a

stimulant ADHD medication as needed.

: 1057

00:53:09,684 --> 00:53:11,964

So I only take it maybe twice a week.

: 1058

00:53:12,004 --> 00:53:15,484

I have a really, really low dose

that happens to work for me.

: 1059

00:53:15,484 --> 00:53:18,186

And, I had to go through a bunch more.

: 1060

00:53:19,322 --> 00:53:22,302

Cardiac tests and things, um,

cardiovascular testing just to

: 1061

00:53:22,302 --> 00:53:24,872

make sure that that was safe for

me to take, even I'd rather I'd

: 1062

00:53:24,872 --> 00:53:26,302

rather not have to take that.

: 1063

00:53:26,742 --> 00:53:31,992

Um, and you know, if I can use something

that doesn't have the potential side

: 1064

00:53:31,992 --> 00:53:36,167

effects or isn't depleting my magnesium or

all these things that this drug could do,

: 1065

00:53:36,394 --> 00:53:37,454

I would much rather take

: 1066

00:53:37,454 --> 00:53:38,014

that route.

: 1067

00:53:38,919 --> 00:53:39,669

-: 0720

Sure.

: 1068

00:53:39,679 --> 00:53:41,299

Yeah, absolutely.

: 1069

00:53:42,064 --> 00:53:43,614

-: 0720

Do we know about potential

: 1070

00:53:43,614 --> 00:53:44,644

side effects or things that,

: 1071

00:53:44,823 --> 00:53:46,113

that psilocybin have?

: 1072

00:53:46,556 --> 00:53:49,406

-: 0720

yeah, so, um, if you're macro dosing,

: 1073

00:53:49,456 --> 00:53:52,816

I mean either macro dosing or micro

dosing, it's important to know

: 1074

00:53:52,816 --> 00:53:56,926

that psilocybin does elevate your

heart rate and your blood pressure.

: 1075

00:53:56,936 --> 00:54:00,076

So it's important that if you have

any heart condition that you do talk

: 1076

00:54:00,076 --> 00:54:02,446

to a medical professional to make

sure that that would be something

: 1077

00:54:02,446 --> 00:54:03,926

that would be for you to do.

: 1078

00:54:04,286 --> 00:54:06,706

Um, And so that's something to consider.

: 1079

00:54:06,706 --> 00:54:09,196

And it, you know, it does have

a bit of that stimulant effect.

: 1080

00:54:09,196 --> 00:54:12,516

And so that's why it might be effective

for some people It's going to be

: 1081

00:54:12,516 --> 00:54:15,578

different person person and the,

level of, their, their experience with

: 1082

00:54:15,578 --> 00:54:17,928

ADHD, it's, it's very individualized.

: 1083

00:54:17,987 --> 00:54:21,237

But, um, but those are the two

side effects to, to consider in

: 1084

00:54:21,237 --> 00:54:24,047

the, you know, short term when

you're actually on the, the drug.

: 1085

00:54:24,108 --> 00:54:29,216

and then in the long term, it's important

to know that, um, uh, some research

: 1086

00:54:29,216 --> 00:54:34,176

is coming out to say that, psilocybin,

if microdosing super regularly, like,

: 1087

00:54:34,446 --> 00:54:37,903

you know, pretty constantly, That,

uh, it's possible that that could

: 1088

00:54:37,903 --> 00:54:39,723

create an arrhythmia with your heart.

: 1089

00:54:39,733 --> 00:54:42,973

And that has to do with the serotonin,

the serotonin pathways that are, that's

: 1090

00:54:42,973 --> 00:54:44,513

happening when you're on psilocybin.

: 1091

00:54:44,893 --> 00:54:48,473

So the, the current like safety

protocol is certainly like

: 1092

00:54:48,583 --> 00:54:50,053

take breaks from microdosing.

: 1093

00:54:50,073 --> 00:54:51,543

Don't do it continuously.

: 1094

00:54:51,563 --> 00:54:52,363

Plus that would.

: 1095

00:54:52,588 --> 00:54:55,398

Create a tolerance for you anyway,

if you're doing that continuously,

: 1096

00:54:55,668 --> 00:54:58,571

make sure you're taking breaks

and just be aware of the issue.

: 1097

00:54:58,581 --> 00:55:01,301

Because of course, we just talked

about heart issues in women.

: 1098

00:55:01,311 --> 00:55:05,121

And, um, you know, you don't want to

exacerbate that, uh, at a time in your

: 1099

00:55:05,121 --> 00:55:06,791

life when you're risk for such a thing.

: 1100

00:55:07,081 --> 00:55:11,561

So, so again, you could potentially

use, um, psilocybin as a micro dosing

: 1101

00:55:11,601 --> 00:55:14,831

tool with ADHD, but you wouldn't,

it wouldn't be something you could

: 1102

00:55:14,831 --> 00:55:17,721

do permanently, like every day,

you know, you'd have to be taking

: 1103

00:55:17,771 --> 00:55:18,131

careful

: 1104

00:55:18,141 --> 00:55:18,721

breaks.

: 1105

00:55:18,722 --> 00:55:18,912

Thanks.

: 1106

00:55:19,411 --> 00:55:20,231

-: 0720

That makes sense.

: 1107

00:55:20,251 --> 00:55:23,361

And you talked a little bit, too, in

our initial conversation about the

: 1108

00:55:23,361 --> 00:55:26,381

timing of it, and because it does

have that stimulant effect that it's

: 1109

00:55:26,611 --> 00:55:28,251

probably better used earlier in the

: 1110

00:55:28,251 --> 00:55:29,221

day so that it doesn't disrupt

: 1111

00:55:29,221 --> 00:55:29,681

sleep.

: 1112

00:55:30,851 --> 00:55:32,721

-: 0720

So just to mention that again, like if you

: 1113

00:55:32,721 --> 00:55:37,848

are planning to macro dose, you know, you

do want to allow like six to eight hours

: 1114

00:55:37,848 --> 00:55:42,348

of time there to, you know, get, you know,

it takes a little for it to activate in

: 1115

00:55:42,348 --> 00:55:46,138

your body, just like as if you were taking

any medication and then, you know, you're

: 1116

00:55:46,138 --> 00:55:48,928

going to hit the peak and then you're

going to time to come down from that.

: 1117

00:55:49,198 --> 00:55:51,158

And it may affect your sleep that night.

: 1118

00:55:51,158 --> 00:55:53,658

So, like if you're going to macro

dose, I would recommend like

: 1119

00:55:53,668 --> 00:55:57,598

setting aside a weekend and, You

know, starting early on a Saturday.

: 1120

00:55:57,598 --> 00:55:59,988

It sounds like, hey, I'm

gonna take some mushrooms

: 1121

00:55:59,988 --> 00:56:00,828

at nine o'clock

: 1122

00:56:00,828 --> 00:56:01,008

in the

: 1123

00:56:01,008 --> 00:56:01,428

morning.

: 1124

00:56:01,428 --> 00:56:01,928

But um,

: 1125

00:56:02,398 --> 00:56:03,418

But if you have sleep

: 1126

00:56:03,458 --> 00:56:04,048

-: 0720

Skip the coffee.

: 1127

00:56:04,078 --> 00:56:05,978

-: 0720

I would yeah, I would recommend that

: 1128

00:56:05,978 --> 00:56:09,028

rather than doing it like at night I

mean, it's not to say that you can't do

: 1129

00:56:09,028 --> 00:56:12,438

it at night, but you may have trouble

sleeping I know I did the first I

: 1130

00:56:12,448 --> 00:56:16,008

did in the evening one time and it

was I did have trouble sleeping that

: 1131

00:56:16,018 --> 00:56:20,668

night Um, but the next time I did it

then I did it from in the morning.

: 1132

00:56:20,678 --> 00:56:23,428

And, you know, by the time I went

to bed, I had come down quite a bit

: 1133

00:56:23,428 --> 00:56:25,078

and had a normal night of sleep.

: 1134

00:56:25,078 --> 00:56:28,048

then same thing with micro

dosing, um, researchers are

: 1135

00:56:28,048 --> 00:56:29,248

starting to study this now.

: 1136

00:56:29,248 --> 00:56:33,418

And we, we don't have all the results

on that yet, but it likely is that like,

: 1137

00:56:33,418 --> 00:56:35,998

if you were to micro dose at night,

you might have some trouble sleeping.

: 1138

00:56:35,998 --> 00:56:39,048

So I would recommend that if you're

micro dosing to in the day, rather

: 1139

00:56:39,048 --> 00:56:42,548

than later, you know, it's similar

to like the concept of if you were,

: 1140

00:56:42,568 --> 00:56:47,213

if you were to, Do like a crazy high

intensity interval workout at 10 p.

: 1141

00:56:47,213 --> 00:56:47,473

m.

: 1142

00:56:47,473 --> 00:56:48,373

And you want him to go to bed at

: 1143

00:56:48,373 --> 00:56:49,173

11, you're going to be

: 1144

00:56:49,173 --> 00:56:49,503

-: 0720

ideal.

: 1145

00:56:49,543 --> 00:56:49,783

Yeah.

: 1146

00:56:50,128 --> 00:56:52,078

-: 0720

I can relate it to that a little bit.

: 1147

00:56:52,960 --> 00:56:54,700

-: 0720

Yeah, well, I think it would help too.

: 1148

00:56:54,710 --> 00:56:57,760

I mean if it's helping with focus

and things like this like it's most

: 1149

00:56:57,760 --> 00:57:00,130

useful during the day like I don't need

: 1150

00:57:00,130 --> 00:57:00,450

help with that

: 1151

00:57:00,600 --> 00:57:01,270

when I'm asleep.

: 1152

00:57:01,925 --> 00:57:02,275

-: 0720

Right.

: 1153

00:57:02,285 --> 00:57:05,255

It's not going to be like cannabis

where we, a lot of us use can, uh,

: 1154

00:57:05,265 --> 00:57:09,025

myself included use cannabis for

like mellowing So it's not like that.

: 1155

00:57:09,820 --> 00:57:10,750

-: 0720

Yeah, yeah.

: 1156

00:57:11,263 --> 00:57:16,303

Since you mentioned cannabis, I'd love to

know just really briefly how psilocybin

: 1157

00:57:16,323 --> 00:57:20,433

is different from Other drugs out there.

: 1158

00:57:20,463 --> 00:57:23,017

And for me, it's more appealing.

: 1159

00:57:23,027 --> 00:57:23,687

I don't know why.

: 1160

00:57:23,737 --> 00:57:27,727

Maybe that's that like, it just

resonates with me a little bit more.

: 1161

00:57:27,727 --> 00:57:30,397

But, um, I am not drawn to CBD oil.

: 1162

00:57:30,397 --> 00:57:34,857

I've had some really weird, um,

you know, reactions to that.

: 1163

00:57:34,907 --> 00:57:37,707

And so it just doesn't draw me.

: 1164

00:57:37,727 --> 00:57:38,547

I don't know.

: 1165

00:57:38,987 --> 00:57:42,717

Um, But I'd love to know how this

kind of acts a little bit differently

: 1166

00:57:42,793 --> 00:57:45,913

on the brain in comparison to

something like, you know, Okay.

: 1167

00:57:46,213 --> 00:57:50,568

MDMA or, um, well,

ayahuasca, like the other

: 1168

00:57:50,858 --> 00:57:51,468

-: 0720

Yeah.

: 1169

00:57:51,978 --> 00:57:52,598

-: 0720

psychedelics that are

: 1170

00:57:52,598 --> 00:57:53,298

kind of becoming

: 1171

00:57:54,433 --> 00:57:56,513

-: 0720

there's certainly LSD.

: 1172

00:57:56,523 --> 00:57:57,353

So that's acid.

: 1173

00:57:57,363 --> 00:58:00,573

Then there's, and there's,

um, MDMA, which is, you know,

: 1174

00:58:00,573 --> 00:58:02,213

like I said, ecstasy or molly.

: 1175

00:58:02,523 --> 00:58:05,753

And, um, you know, think about Like,

so obviously I think a lot of people

: 1176

00:58:05,753 --> 00:58:10,083

are drawn to psilocybin because it

is natural substance, um, as opposed

: 1177

00:58:10,103 --> 00:58:15,971

to something like acid or, MDMA and

ayahuasca is natural as well too.

: 1178

00:58:15,971 --> 00:58:18,636

So people drawn to Natural things.

: 1179

00:58:18,916 --> 00:58:23,833

Um, yeah, so there's some components

of, um, what happens in the brain are,

: 1180

00:58:23,933 --> 00:58:29,513

like, also happening on MDMA or LSD

or, um, ayahuasca, and you know, I

: 1181

00:58:29,513 --> 00:58:33,133

can't, I'm not an expert on those can't

really into all of the differences

: 1182

00:58:33,133 --> 00:58:37,678

and the, and similarities, um, but

I, I do You know, just want to point

: 1183

00:58:37,748 --> 00:58:42,608

out that like, uh, that acid, like

LSD and MDMA are natural substances.

: 1184

00:58:42,608 --> 00:58:43,568

That doesn't don't approve of them.

: 1185

00:58:43,568 --> 00:58:45,358

I, I approve of all psychedelics.

: 1186

00:58:45,358 --> 00:58:47,838

I'm just saying that they're

they're very different.

: 1187

00:58:47,868 --> 00:58:51,878

Um, terms of cannabis, um, you

know, there's some similarities,

: 1188

00:58:51,878 --> 00:58:55,948

but I would say that, uh, the

experience is, is very different.

: 1189

00:58:55,948 --> 00:58:58,238

I would say what's similar

in terms of like using.

: 1190

00:58:58,833 --> 00:59:03,733

psilocybin and cannabis, you know,

individually would be, um, a lot

: 1191

00:59:03,733 --> 00:59:06,263

of times with cannabis, you have

a little bit of euphoria and a

: 1192

00:59:06,263 --> 00:59:10,093

lot of people on, psilocybin will

experience that euphoria as well.

: 1193

00:59:10,093 --> 00:59:11,823

And that's a really pleasant thing.

: 1194

00:59:12,163 --> 00:59:16,233

Um, you know, Some people on

cannabis have, uh, issues with

: 1195

00:59:16,233 --> 00:59:17,883

anxiety, like it can drive.

: 1196

00:59:18,188 --> 00:59:20,818

paranoia or increased anxiety.

: 1197

00:59:21,058 --> 00:59:24,098

Um, and that can happen on psilocybin too.

: 1198

00:59:24,158 --> 00:59:29,838

um, usually the, the experience that

anxiety can, can mellow out, you know.

: 1199

00:59:29,998 --> 00:59:32,538

but yeah, it's just a very

different, um, I mean, obviously

: 1200

00:59:32,538 --> 00:59:36,528

they're all different substances,

but, um, yeah, I like them both.

: 1201

00:59:36,608 --> 00:59:40,563

I like cannabis and I like,

Cannabis has been very beneficial

: 1202

00:59:40,563 --> 00:59:44,156

to me in a microdose, um, format.

: 1203

00:59:44,156 --> 00:59:48,626

I mean, yes, I, I take enough

where I do feel it, but, um, I'm

: 1204

00:59:48,626 --> 00:59:51,616

not taking it so that I'm like

high out of my mind or something.

: 1205

00:59:51,646 --> 00:59:55,466

Not that high out of their mind, but

I'm not using cannabis recreationally.

: 1206

00:59:55,466 --> 01:00:00,246

I mostly use it, um, you know,

around 8 PM to just sort of

: 1207

01:00:00,246 --> 01:00:01,726

like ease myself into sleep.

: 1208

01:00:01,726 --> 01:00:05,726

And it really helps me sleep, but

psilocybin would not help me sleep.

: 1209

01:00:05,916 --> 01:00:07,106

That would not do good.

: 1210

01:00:07,781 --> 01:00:08,221

-: 0720

Yeah.

: 1211

01:00:08,791 --> 01:00:13,031

Well, it seems to just from, you know,

my understanding and from hearing you

: 1212

01:00:13,031 --> 01:00:15,911

talk and please correct me, I could

be completely wrong about this, but I

: 1213

01:00:15,921 --> 01:00:22,201

feel like cannabis is almost more in

that class of like, let's numb out a

: 1214

01:00:22,201 --> 01:00:24,851

little bit or chill out and numb out.

: 1215

01:00:24,861 --> 01:00:25,341

Whereas.

: 1216

01:00:25,486 --> 01:00:29,746

Um, so Simon is more like, lock into

what needs to be addressed here.

: 1217

01:00:29,756 --> 01:00:32,686

Like, it's a little more of,

um, of enlightenment maybe it.

: 1218

01:00:33,111 --> 01:00:35,541

-: 0720

Yeah, that's a great way to put it.

: 1219

01:00:35,541 --> 01:00:39,941

I, I would think of it like, if I'm if

I'm taking cannabis, I'm like, Hey, I'm

: 1220

01:00:39,941 --> 01:00:44,881

ready to like, kind of tune out just

relax, you know, feel the numbness of my

: 1221

01:00:44,881 --> 01:00:46,651

fingers and toes and things like that.

: 1222

01:00:46,691 --> 01:00:51,091

Um, And then if I were to use psilocybin,

it's like, Hey, we're going to buckle down

: 1223

01:00:51,091 --> 01:00:52,761

and get to work here, lady and work on

: 1224

01:00:52,846 --> 01:00:53,316

-: 0720

Yeah.

: 1225

01:00:53,466 --> 01:00:53,966

Yeah.

: 1226

01:00:54,326 --> 01:00:56,926

Maybe that's why I'm more drawn to it

because that's more of my natural state of

: 1227

01:00:57,256 --> 01:00:57,496

Buckle

: 1228

01:00:57,511 --> 01:00:58,001

-: 0720

I get it.

: 1229

01:00:58,001 --> 01:00:58,351

I mean, I'm

: 1230

01:00:58,361 --> 01:00:58,891

like that too.

: 1231

01:00:58,901 --> 01:00:59,271

I'm like, what are

: 1232

01:00:59,336 --> 01:00:59,666

-: 0720

All right.

: 1233

01:00:59,666 --> 01:00:59,906

Yeah.

: 1234

01:01:01,556 --> 01:01:02,046

To do list.

: 1235

01:01:02,601 --> 01:01:03,341

Oh man.

: 1236

01:01:03,342 --> 01:01:03,361

Okay.

: 1237

01:01:03,361 --> 01:01:03,781

Okay.

: 1238

01:01:03,781 --> 01:01:10,096

So let's dive into, um, The very

female specific aspects of this, you

: 1239

01:01:10,096 --> 01:01:14,270

know, I, I think a good example of

how things can affect the female brain

: 1240

01:01:14,330 --> 01:01:18,050

so drastically differently or like

ambient, like we know now that like

: 1241

01:01:18,050 --> 01:01:19,530

that affects women really differently.

: 1242

01:01:19,530 --> 01:01:22,120

And initially there were like car

accidents women were having and all

: 1243

01:01:22,120 --> 01:01:24,710

these things and people were like, Oh,

women are just bad drivers, whatever.

: 1244

01:01:24,710 --> 01:01:27,060

And then they realized

like, no, no, no, doses.

: 1245

01:01:27,520 --> 01:01:30,043

need to be like half of what

we're recommending for men.

: 1246

01:01:30,132 --> 01:01:32,992

Um, and then that switched

things, you know, a lot.

: 1247

01:01:33,322 --> 01:01:37,367

Um, we can all avoid taking something like

Ambien, but it's a good are different.

: 1248

01:01:37,367 --> 01:01:38,457

They function differently.

: 1249

01:01:38,777 --> 01:01:45,012

Um, And whether we are in size

smaller than men or not, like

: 1250

01:01:45,422 --> 01:01:46,772

we're just a different machine.

: 1251

01:01:47,132 --> 01:01:50,982

Um, have you found that there are

specific differences as far as,

: 1252

01:01:51,032 --> 01:01:56,168

um, you know, how this works on

the female brain versus the male?

: 1253

01:01:57,493 --> 01:01:58,653

Or at least how it

: 1254

01:01:58,933 --> 01:02:00,323

influences the downstream

: 1255

01:02:00,323 --> 01:02:01,053

effects.

: 1256

01:02:01,053 --> 01:02:01,463

Mm

: 1257

01:02:02,723 --> 01:02:03,243

-: 0720

Sure.

: 1258

01:02:03,243 --> 01:02:03,573

Yeah.

: 1259

01:02:03,573 --> 01:02:07,273

So there's some research now that has

come out that I'm really excited about

: 1260

01:02:07,273 --> 01:02:11,893

to suggest that psilocybin does, um,

interact with the menstrual cycle.

: 1261

01:02:11,943 --> 01:02:13,163

And so I'll dive into that.

: 1262

01:02:13,173 --> 01:02:16,893

But, so the thing to note, to back up,

because we didn't talk about this, is that

: 1263

01:02:16,893 --> 01:02:22,603

psilocybin is a tryptamine alkaloid and

it, binds to your serotonin receptors,

: 1264

01:02:22,613 --> 01:02:25,633

and it mimics that it mimics serotonin.

: 1265

01:02:25,633 --> 01:02:28,473

So it mimics that very

important neurotransmitter.

: 1266

01:02:28,473 --> 01:02:32,043

Serotonin is super important for

our not only our mood, but it's

: 1267

01:02:32,043 --> 01:02:35,943

also important for our digestion,

our libido, different things.

: 1268

01:02:36,753 --> 01:02:39,803

So psilocybin is activating

those serotonin receptors.

: 1269

01:02:39,833 --> 01:02:45,773

Um, So diving into that a little further,

what we do know is that estrogen like

: 1270

01:02:45,863 --> 01:02:49,703

likely somehow affects the binding

at the serotonin receptor site.

: 1271

01:02:49,703 --> 01:02:53,013

And so we don't really know all

the details on that yet, but

: 1272

01:02:53,013 --> 01:02:56,403

what we do know is that it likely

affects the menstrual cycle.

: 1273

01:02:56,563 --> 01:02:58,603

And so dig into that a

little bit more deeply.

: 1274

01:02:58,603 --> 01:03:01,473

It may matter where we are in

our menstrual cycles when we are.

: 1275

01:03:01,588 --> 01:03:03,538

when we are, um, macro dosing.

: 1276

01:03:03,538 --> 01:03:08,193

And then in terms of micro dosing, I'll

talk about that as well Um, what we,

: 1277

01:03:08,243 --> 01:03:12,513

what we know is that so our menstrual

cycles, well, I'll dig, I'll dig into

: 1278

01:03:12,513 --> 01:03:16,203

this, um, study that came out first,

then I'll dive into the menstrual cycle.

: 1279

01:03:16,223 --> 01:03:20,133

But some case studies that Johns

Hopkins university has been doing

: 1280

01:03:20,134 --> 01:03:21,943

at their psychedelic center.

: 1281

01:03:21,943 --> 01:03:22,523

Um, Dr.

: 1282

01:03:22,523 --> 01:03:24,153

Natalie Kassian and Dr.

: 1283

01:03:24,163 --> 01:03:27,438

Sasha Kane and Ryan, been prolific

in this, and I'm so excited about

: 1284

01:03:27,438 --> 01:03:28,458

the research that they're doing.

: 1285

01:03:28,458 --> 01:03:31,038

And I know they're going to continue

to study this, but they did some

: 1286

01:03:31,038 --> 01:03:35,648

case studies looking at how are

psychedelics affecting cycle potentially.

: 1287

01:03:35,648 --> 01:03:37,998

And there are three things

that kind of have cropped up.

: 1288

01:03:38,208 --> 01:03:42,628

One is that, um, and they focused

on psilocybin to a certain extent.

: 1289

01:03:42,638 --> 01:03:46,098

So one is that it's possible

that psilocybin may make your

: 1290

01:03:46,098 --> 01:03:47,368

period come a little early.

: 1291

01:03:47,898 --> 01:03:48,908

earlier than expected.

: 1292

01:03:49,228 --> 01:03:51,858

It may also re regulate your

menstrual cycle if you've

: 1293

01:03:51,858 --> 01:03:53,728

had a time of irregularity.

: 1294

01:03:53,728 --> 01:03:57,109

So, um, you know, a lot of conditions

like premenstrual dysphoric

: 1295

01:03:57,139 --> 01:04:01,449

disorder, polycystic ovary ovary

syndrome, and then can disrupt

: 1296

01:04:01,449 --> 01:04:02,819

the menstrual cycle quite a bit.

: 1297

01:04:03,109 --> 01:04:05,089

And so you may, and so can stress.

: 1298

01:04:05,119 --> 01:04:07,389

And so, you know, there, there

might be a time where you've had an

: 1299

01:04:07,409 --> 01:04:11,159

absence of a period or you've, your

period's just been really erratic.

: 1300

01:04:11,159 --> 01:04:15,379

Well, it seems like psilocybin may be

able to reregulate The menstrual cycle.

: 1301

01:04:15,389 --> 01:04:19,288

The other thing is that it may bring

back a menstrual cycle after a time

: 1302

01:04:19,339 --> 01:04:23,809

of irregular, of, of an So I'm not

talking about in menopause, but in

: 1303

01:04:23,809 --> 01:04:27,269

your reproductive years, there've

been, you know, many conditions can

: 1304

01:04:27,269 --> 01:04:30,788

cause an absence of a period or a

lot of weight loss, all of that.

: 1305

01:04:30,788 --> 01:04:31,399

can cause that.

: 1306

01:04:31,399 --> 01:04:35,779

And so that might bring your menstrual had

a time of, of of where it's been absent.

: 1307

01:04:36,399 --> 01:04:37,909

So why would this occur?

: 1308

01:04:37,909 --> 01:04:41,657

Um, again, we need more research on those

specific things, but the research is

: 1309

01:04:41,677 --> 01:04:45,290

starting and I'm excited about that, uh,

because it may have a lot of ramifications

: 1310

01:04:45,290 --> 01:04:50,190

for, I mean, and benefits, I should

say, for, um, these conditions that do

: 1311

01:04:50,210 --> 01:04:53,830

interact with the menstrual cycle, plus

maybe fertility even, we don't know.

: 1312

01:04:53,980 --> 01:04:55,620

We just need to need to study that more.

: 1313

01:04:56,005 --> 01:05:01,035

But the menstrual cycle occurs called

the hypothalamic pituitary gonadal axis.

: 1314

01:05:01,045 --> 01:05:05,045

So when we are, um, dealing with

our menstrual cycle, you know, we

: 1315

01:05:05,045 --> 01:05:09,525

have the the follicular phase, then

ovulation, then the luteal phase,

: 1316

01:05:09,525 --> 01:05:10,675

and then you would get your period.

: 1317

01:05:10,975 --> 01:05:14,625

And the reason that happens is

because the brain and the ovaries

: 1318

01:05:14,625 --> 01:05:16,215

are communicating with each other.

: 1319

01:05:16,215 --> 01:05:20,105

And when one hormone kicks off, it tells

another hormone what to do and so forth.

: 1320

01:05:20,105 --> 01:05:22,835

And this all occurs

along this feedback loop.

: 1321

01:05:22,920 --> 01:05:26,710

of the menstrual cycle, and then

we also have another axis in our

: 1322

01:05:26,710 --> 01:05:28,230

bodies, and everyone has this.

: 1323

01:05:28,240 --> 01:05:31,130

It's called the hypothalamic

pituitary axis, and that is very

: 1324

01:05:31,130 --> 01:05:32,930

concerned with our stress response.

: 1325

01:05:33,020 --> 01:05:36,516

And, and so, you know, when we

take psilocybin, we are activating

: 1326

01:05:37,626 --> 01:05:42,496

that, uh, the HPA axis, the

hypothalamic pituitary adrenal axis.

: 1327

01:05:42,696 --> 01:05:45,350

But you can tell by their

names that these axes overlap.

: 1328

01:05:45,350 --> 01:05:47,760

So we've got the hypothalamus

and the pituitary gland, they're

: 1329

01:05:47,760 --> 01:05:50,355

overlapping with the Um, the H.

: 1330

01:05:50,355 --> 01:05:50,535

P.

: 1331

01:05:50,535 --> 01:05:50,825

G.

: 1332

01:05:50,825 --> 01:05:51,815

Axis and the H.

: 1333

01:05:51,815 --> 01:05:52,055

P.

: 1334

01:05:52,055 --> 01:05:52,275

A.

: 1335

01:05:52,275 --> 01:05:52,745

Axis.

: 1336

01:05:52,745 --> 01:05:55,165

They overlap and we know

that one affects the other.

: 1337

01:05:55,165 --> 01:05:58,495

We already know this from just

living as women in our lives.

: 1338

01:05:58,495 --> 01:06:01,715

We know if we're stressed out, that

could impact periods and when we

: 1339

01:06:01,715 --> 01:06:04,765

get our periods that can certainly

make us more stressed, right?

: 1340

01:06:05,095 --> 01:06:08,335

So that we know from from our

experiences, plus from scientific

: 1341

01:06:08,375 --> 01:06:09,545

literature that they overlap.

: 1342

01:06:09,555 --> 01:06:13,185

So it's not a stretch to assume

that one axes would affect

: 1343

01:06:13,215 --> 01:06:15,055

the other and likely they do.

: 1344

01:06:15,810 --> 01:06:20,990

So how do you manage that with figuring

out should you, in your cycle, uh, do

: 1345

01:06:20,990 --> 01:06:23,000

a deeper journey, like a macrodose?

: 1346

01:06:23,260 --> 01:06:28,120

So, um, Indigenous wisdom practices,

you would not be allowed to engage in

: 1347

01:06:28,120 --> 01:06:31,830

ceremony if you were on your period,

and that's just part of their rules,

: 1348

01:06:31,990 --> 01:06:35,790

and that's likely for and when I

Indigenous wisdom expert, she also

: 1349

01:06:35,800 --> 01:06:40,960

said that it's best, um, to if you're

if you're planning to do a macro dose,

: 1350

01:06:40,960 --> 01:06:43,900

do that closer ovulation rather than

when you get closer to your period.

: 1351

01:06:44,170 --> 01:06:47,870

And that simply has to do

with, um, the energy that's

: 1352

01:06:47,870 --> 01:06:49,640

available to us in our bodies.

: 1353

01:06:49,650 --> 01:06:53,440

And I'm talking about like, like the

way that we metabolize and insulin that

: 1354

01:06:53,440 --> 01:06:55,620

changes as we get closer to our periods.

: 1355

01:06:55,640 --> 01:07:01,695

And so if you are, um, close to your

period and trying to do a journey, Um, a

: 1356

01:07:01,695 --> 01:07:06,615

macro dose can feel very energy depleting

for the body and just temporarily,

: 1357

01:07:06,815 --> 01:07:10,675

but you know, you're already energy

depleted as you're in that late luteal

: 1358

01:07:10,685 --> 01:07:12,465

phase getting closer to your period.

: 1359

01:07:12,835 --> 01:07:16,605

And so another thing to consider is

a lot of people fast before a dose.

: 1360

01:07:16,645 --> 01:07:19,725

Um, and that might just be like the

hours leading up to the macro dose,

: 1361

01:07:19,825 --> 01:07:23,995

or it could be like, maybe you're

you're doing a dietary change for

: 1362

01:07:24,035 --> 01:07:27,555

several days and you're fasting may

be a part of that leading up to it.

: 1363

01:07:27,965 --> 01:07:30,065

You know, There are just different

practices surrounding it.

: 1364

01:07:30,889 --> 01:07:35,099

It's very hard to fast in

that late luteal phase.

: 1365

01:07:35,379 --> 01:07:38,999

Um, But during, as we're closer to

ovulation, we have much more energy

: 1366

01:07:38,999 --> 01:07:40,559

available to our, in our bodies.

: 1367

01:07:40,559 --> 01:07:43,814

And this all makes sense from a

scientific metabolic health get

: 1368

01:07:43,844 --> 01:07:47,954

insulin resistant in the luteal phase

because our bodies are sending all the

: 1369

01:07:48,354 --> 01:07:51,514

The um glucose to the womb, right?

: 1370

01:07:51,574 --> 01:07:55,944

And so, um, It we just have more

and we're less insulin resistant.

: 1371

01:07:55,944 --> 01:07:59,274

We have more energy in our bodies

during that ovulation time.

: 1372

01:07:59,284 --> 01:08:02,604

So that's the recommendation on

macro dosing is to try not to

: 1373

01:08:02,604 --> 01:08:04,064

do it too close to your period.

: 1374

01:08:04,604 --> 01:08:09,784

And then in terms of micro dosing, my

indigenous wisdom expert recommended to,

: 1375

01:08:10,094 --> 01:08:13,394

if you're thinking about micro dosing

to see how that affects your menstrual

: 1376

01:08:13,394 --> 01:08:18,194

cycle, and many people are trying this

for various conditions, um, that to do

: 1377

01:08:18,194 --> 01:08:23,974

that for three months, like follow a

specific protocol, like the Fadiman stack.

: 1378

01:08:24,174 --> 01:08:27,413

Follow that for three months

and track your symptoms.

: 1379

01:08:27,424 --> 01:08:30,513

So like, you know, take a journal

and mark down if you're having

: 1380

01:08:30,523 --> 01:08:32,122

changes in your menstrual cycle.

: 1381

01:08:32,443 --> 01:08:36,202

And that will kind of inform you, um,

three months later, if you want to switch

: 1382

01:08:36,202 --> 01:08:40,323

them out, switch up the protocol, if

you want to stop completely, or if it,

: 1383

01:08:40,353 --> 01:08:43,643

if you realize that it is working with

you and you want to continue with it, it

: 1384

01:08:43,663 --> 01:08:48,372

takes about three months to really see

effects menstrual cycle with micro dosing.

: 1385

01:08:48,383 --> 01:08:49,683

So just to keep that in mind.

: 1386

01:08:49,993 --> 01:08:50,363

-: 0720

Yeah.

: 1387

01:08:50,363 --> 01:08:52,023

That's that's great information.

: 1388

01:08:52,053 --> 01:08:52,363

I.

: 1389

01:08:52,363 --> 01:08:52,483

Yeah.

: 1390

01:08:53,252 --> 01:08:56,582

Curious to see more of the research on

that as well, too, because I know, you

: 1391

01:08:56,582 --> 01:08:58,292

know, a lot of women are realizing.

: 1392

01:08:58,848 --> 01:09:02,238

At a certain point in their lives, like,

hey, I don't want to be on birth control

: 1393

01:09:02,238 --> 01:09:08,077

anymore, you know, whether or not they

want to get pregnant and they really to

: 1394

01:09:08,118 --> 01:09:13,818

re regulate their natural cycle because

they've been, you know, not having a real

: 1395

01:09:13,818 --> 01:09:17,108

cycle for decades, potentially, right?

: 1396

01:09:17,108 --> 01:09:19,548

And they want to kind of re

regulate that and sort of.

: 1397

01:09:19,898 --> 01:09:22,558

Get to the point where they can get a

baseline on what's happening with their

: 1398

01:09:22,558 --> 01:09:28,684

hormones Which you can't do when you're

on any kind of you know birth control or

: 1399

01:09:29,084 --> 01:09:29,884

hormonal treatment

: 1400

01:09:30,913 --> 01:09:32,874

So that could be a really interesting

: 1401

01:09:32,874 --> 01:09:33,493

tool for that

: 1402

01:09:34,014 --> 01:09:34,974

-: 0720

I think so too.

: 1403

01:09:34,984 --> 01:09:36,834

And yeah, I'm with you on that.

: 1404

01:09:36,844 --> 01:09:40,995

Like I um, I was, I had a blood clot and

it was actually caught in my arm and it

: 1405

01:09:40,995 --> 01:09:43,115

was actually caused by birth control.

: 1406

01:09:43,115 --> 01:09:48,395

It's a, It's a rare risk

factor for having a blood clot.

: 1407

01:09:48,425 --> 01:09:53,015

And so after that, I was no longer

allowed to be on birth control at all.

: 1408

01:09:53,295 --> 01:09:57,195

But birth control was helping me

for a while with wasn't a perfect

: 1409

01:09:57,485 --> 01:10:00,150

but it was helping to a then I

was like, what am I gonna do?

: 1410

01:10:00,190 --> 01:10:00,520

know?

: 1411

01:10:00,940 --> 01:10:05,423

And so, you know, I wondered

if, um, that if I, had I had a

: 1412

01:10:05,423 --> 01:10:08,684

hysterectomy eventually, but, um,

which is not a cure for endometriosis.

: 1413

01:10:08,684 --> 01:10:09,645

I'm not trying to say that.

: 1414

01:10:09,705 --> 01:10:13,485

But, um, but I, you know, leading

up to that, I was really, really

: 1415

01:10:13,485 --> 01:10:17,415

struggling with so much pain after

not being able to take birth control.

: 1416

01:10:17,415 --> 01:10:22,635

And I'm wondering if I had had access to

psilocybin then if I uh, or if I had known

: 1417

01:10:22,635 --> 01:10:24,675

about it or known about the benefits of

: 1418

01:10:24,675 --> 01:10:25,005

what that

: 1419

01:10:25,100 --> 01:10:26,210

-: 0720

Right, man.

: 1420

01:10:26,230 --> 01:10:29,470

Wouldn't it be wonderful if people could

get more access to this and not have to

: 1421

01:10:29,470 --> 01:10:31,059

go through that unnecessary suffering?

: 1422

01:10:31,430 --> 01:10:34,800

And I think the clotting is a

more common thing than we realize.

: 1423

01:10:34,830 --> 01:10:39,470

I mean, you're one of probably,

well, at least two women who I know,

: 1424

01:10:39,480 --> 01:10:43,200

one of my close girlfriends had

thrombosis that traveled to her.

: 1425

01:10:43,640 --> 01:10:45,460

Long, you know, it, it was almost fatal.

: 1426

01:10:45,680 --> 01:10:47,120

It was really really scary.

: 1427

01:10:47,130 --> 01:10:49,375

And, um, this is just a personal trainer.

: 1428

01:10:49,375 --> 01:10:50,735

I mean, extremely fit person.

: 1429

01:10:51,125 --> 01:10:53,040

Um, And it was the

: 1430

01:10:53,040 --> 01:10:53,490

birth control.

: 1431

01:10:55,305 --> 01:10:56,415

-: 0720

I mean, that was the thing for me.

: 1432

01:10:56,415 --> 01:10:58,315

Like I, I'm exerciser.

: 1433

01:10:58,315 --> 01:11:02,285

I love fitness and, um, I'm

super healthy for the most part.

: 1434

01:11:02,315 --> 01:11:05,305

And, uh, so when I, and I've

never smoked in my life.

: 1435

01:11:05,305 --> 01:11:07,355

And so presented with that, it was.

: 1436

01:11:07,600 --> 01:11:09,270

It was very, I was surprised.

: 1437

01:11:09,270 --> 01:11:11,870

I was like, how could I possibly

have a blood blood clot?

: 1438

01:11:11,870 --> 01:11:13,910

And actually doctors weren't

sure at first either.

: 1439

01:11:13,910 --> 01:11:15,410

They were like, what is going here?

: 1440

01:11:15,410 --> 01:11:16,720

And so, yeah.

: 1441

01:11:16,720 --> 01:11:20,260

And, and to your point, I do think

it's more common than we think.

: 1442

01:11:20,280 --> 01:11:23,850

Um, I ended up writing an article

about this for health line, about

: 1443

01:11:23,850 --> 01:11:27,160

my personal experience and like the

risk factors for that and everything.

: 1444

01:11:27,550 --> 01:11:30,963

And I can't tell you

how many messages I get.

: 1445

01:11:31,083 --> 01:11:34,923

Per year from women who've

had the same issue crop up.

: 1446

01:11:35,283 --> 01:11:38,043

And they're they're call, they're

reaching out to me on like Facebook

: 1447

01:11:38,043 --> 01:11:42,093

Messenger or dms and Instagram, which

I'm totally open to, but they're asking

: 1448

01:11:42,093 --> 01:11:43,983

me for medical advice and a doctor.

: 1449

01:11:44,283 --> 01:11:47,583

And it's because they're not adequate

information from their doctors.

: 1450

01:11:47,588 --> 01:11:51,634

And the the crazy thing too is

that, um, a lot, sometimes people.

: 1451

01:11:52,003 --> 01:11:55,083

Reach me initially just to sort of

commiserate over this experience.

: 1452

01:11:55,103 --> 01:11:58,753

But the other thing that I get from

people is, um, they message me and

: 1453

01:11:58,753 --> 01:12:01,113

they're like, Oh, you know, cause

immediately if you have a blood

: 1454

01:12:01,113 --> 01:12:02,163

clot, they're on a blood thinner.

: 1455

01:12:02,163 --> 01:12:02,493

Right?

: 1456

01:12:02,923 --> 01:12:05,093

Well, as women, we get periods, right?

: 1457

01:12:05,143 --> 01:12:07,433

I'm depending on where you are

in your age, you know, but.

: 1458

01:12:08,098 --> 01:12:11,228

If you get a period on a

blood thinner, it is like,

: 1459

01:12:11,278 --> 01:12:12,978

Oh my God, am I hemorrhaging?

: 1460

01:12:13,028 --> 01:12:13,368

Am I dying?

: 1461

01:12:14,318 --> 01:12:16,648

And so it, and they don't

warn you about this.

: 1462

01:12:16,648 --> 01:12:20,308

And there's research about it that,

um, that it's like 75 percent of

: 1463

01:12:20,308 --> 01:12:22,998

women who take a blood thinner

will have a horrendous period.

: 1464

01:12:22,998 --> 01:12:26,318

And it is like, it looks like you've

been slaughtered in your bathroom.

: 1465

01:12:26,708 --> 01:12:29,077

And so they reach out to me and

they're like, am I hemorrhaging?

: 1466

01:12:29,077 --> 01:12:30,378

Do I need to go to the hospital?

: 1467

01:12:30,378 --> 01:12:33,418

And I nearly needed an iron

infusion because of it.

: 1468

01:12:33,418 --> 01:12:33,588

It was.

: 1469

01:12:33,603 --> 01:12:36,573

So bad, you know, and I need, I

know I needed to be on that blood

: 1470

01:12:36,613 --> 01:12:39,403

thinner, but no one about that.

: 1471

01:12:39,653 --> 01:12:40,553

-: 0720

so common.

: 1472

01:12:41,783 --> 01:12:42,803

It's so common.

: 1473

01:12:43,263 --> 01:12:50,923

it's just unbelievable to me little the

mainstream medical world understands about

: 1474

01:12:50,923 --> 01:12:51,523

women's bodies.

: 1475

01:12:52,443 --> 01:12:53,073

And how all these

: 1476

01:12:53,573 --> 01:12:55,293

-: 0720

And I'm not, I'm not against

: 1477

01:12:55,293 --> 01:12:56,243

the mainstream medical

: 1478

01:12:56,473 --> 01:12:56,952

-: 0720

no.

: 1479

01:12:57,003 --> 01:12:57,873

-: 0720

love science and

: 1480

01:12:57,913 --> 01:12:58,603

-: 0720

but we have a long way

: 1481

01:12:58,613 --> 01:12:59,603

-: 0720

you know, and I Yeah.

: 1482

01:12:59,653 --> 01:13:00,483

We have a long way to go.

: 1483

01:13:00,503 --> 01:13:00,713

Yes.

: 1484

01:13:01,243 --> 01:13:05,915

-: 0720

Um, yeah, so menopause, or perimenopause

: 1485

01:13:05,985 --> 01:13:10,515

because that's another, I think,

poorly understood stage of life.

: 1486

01:13:10,965 --> 01:13:16,595

And I think that we, as women, Mostly

your horror stories about this, right?

: 1487

01:13:16,595 --> 01:13:18,845

We hear like, Oh God,

wait till in menopause.

: 1488

01:13:18,845 --> 01:13:19,445

It's horrible.

: 1489

01:13:19,445 --> 01:13:24,265

And they're going to be having hot sweats

and, um, hot flashes and night sweats,

: 1490

01:13:24,275 --> 01:13:25,675

and you're not gonna be able to sleep.

: 1491

01:13:25,684 --> 01:13:26,425

Like, just wait.

: 1492

01:13:26,465 --> 01:13:28,945

I had a woman say this to me

like a matter of months ago.

: 1493

01:13:28,985 --> 01:13:29,975

She's like, Oh, just

: 1494

01:13:29,975 --> 01:13:30,315

wait.

: 1495

01:13:31,015 --> 01:13:32,280

And it's Okay.

: 1496

01:13:32,290 --> 01:13:34,790

Well, first of all, not every

woman has that experience,

: 1497

01:13:36,160 --> 01:13:40,330

but second of all, I don't think that

we have to come into this in this state

: 1498

01:13:40,330 --> 01:13:43,300

of mind of there's nothing I can do.

: 1499

01:13:43,340 --> 01:13:49,090

Um, I'm just a slave to my

genetic predisposition, et cetera.

: 1500

01:13:49,410 --> 01:13:55,040

Um, So I want to know how this can be

used as a tool or how it potentially.

: 1501

01:13:55,275 --> 01:14:00,705

You know, can affect things in that

perimenopausal and menopausal stage,

: 1502

01:14:00,715 --> 01:14:04,565

because obviously our hormones are in

a very different state post menopause.

: 1503

01:14:04,615 --> 01:14:08,469

This is after, technically after

your period has stopped completely

: 1504

01:14:08,469 --> 01:14:10,089

for a full calendar year.

: 1505

01:14:10,489 --> 01:14:13,809

Um, on that, but that's the

generally recognized diagnosis.

: 1506

01:14:14,159 --> 01:14:19,059

Um, And, you know, what

looks different there?

: 1507

01:14:19,059 --> 01:14:23,309

Because I know, like, for example,

from a nutrition perspective, women

: 1508

01:14:23,309 --> 01:14:29,039

can Often do things like fasting more

in a way that men can when they're

: 1509

01:14:29,039 --> 01:14:34,109

post menopausal while it, whereas when

they're still having cycles, it can look

: 1510

01:14:34,119 --> 01:14:38,219

very different and they need to go

about it very differently because it

: 1511

01:14:39,039 --> 01:14:41,189

You know, it's a different situation.

: 1512

01:14:41,209 --> 01:14:46,789

So talk to us about in this kind of

context, because many of my listeners

: 1513

01:14:46,829 --> 01:14:49,849

that perimenopausal state of life.

: 1514

01:14:50,239 --> 01:14:52,139

Um, And many of them

: 1515

01:14:52,139 --> 01:14:52,779

are also

: 1516

01:14:53,099 --> 01:14:53,259

postmenopausal.

: 1517

01:14:54,144 --> 01:14:54,954

-: 0720

Absolutely.

: 1518

01:14:54,954 --> 01:14:55,193

Yeah.

: 1519

01:14:55,193 --> 01:14:58,324

So this is, um, something I love

talking about menopause because I'm

: 1520

01:14:58,324 --> 01:15:00,254

actually in perimenopause right now.

: 1521

01:15:00,254 --> 01:15:03,294

I actually don't know where I am in my

menopause trajectory because I don't,

: 1522

01:15:03,374 --> 01:15:07,029

I had a hysterectomy, so I don't have a

period and it's like, Am I in menopause?

: 1523

01:15:07,029 --> 01:15:07,549

Am I not?

: 1524

01:15:07,568 --> 01:15:08,229

What's going on?

: 1525

01:15:08,229 --> 01:15:12,629

You know, but yeah, that time to that,

to the actual menopause, when you've

: 1526

01:15:12,629 --> 01:15:16,759

had an absence of a period for a year,

um, that time leading up to that,

: 1527

01:15:16,759 --> 01:15:19,039

which can last decade is perimenopause.

: 1528

01:15:19,079 --> 01:15:22,959

And that's when we tend to get some of

these symptoms like hot flashes, um,

: 1529

01:15:22,969 --> 01:15:26,739

potentially weight gain, depression can

crop up even for people who've never had

: 1530

01:15:26,739 --> 01:15:32,129

depression before, um, a change in libido,

all of things can happen in perimenopause.

: 1531

01:15:32,524 --> 01:15:35,504

And you know, you made a really great

point that we need to reframe the way that

: 1532

01:15:35,504 --> 01:15:39,864

we, we talk about menopause and we think

about it because yes, it's this, it can

: 1533

01:15:39,864 --> 01:15:43,994

be, we can have a lot of symptoms crop

up and people look at it a lot of dread.

: 1534

01:15:44,284 --> 01:15:48,264

But what if we reframed that as

this concept of like, we're trying,

: 1535

01:15:48,304 --> 01:15:51,514

we're, we're making a transition in

life, we're entering a new chapter.

: 1536

01:15:51,514 --> 01:15:52,364

And what if it weren't?

: 1537

01:15:52,589 --> 01:15:53,459

this bad thing?

: 1538

01:15:53,489 --> 01:15:55,309

we thought about it as

something beautiful?

: 1539

01:15:55,639 --> 01:15:58,519

And so my indigenous wisdom expert,

she kind of brought that up and she,

: 1540

01:15:58,568 --> 01:16:02,909

she said, psilocybin or mushrooms

themselves, mushrooms are, um, and you

: 1541

01:16:02,909 --> 01:16:07,549

know, fun, fungi out there are great

like decomposers and they literally

: 1542

01:16:07,549 --> 01:16:09,549

transition matter into something else.

: 1543

01:16:09,818 --> 01:16:12,899

And that is also something that we

can think about with our bodies is

: 1544

01:16:12,909 --> 01:16:14,289

with menopause is that we are just.

: 1545

01:16:14,769 --> 01:16:19,488

We're going through this beautiful

metamorphosis, perhaps, so that's one

: 1546

01:16:19,488 --> 01:16:23,168

thing I wanted to share, but, um, I

do have some some actual that I think

: 1547

01:16:23,168 --> 01:16:27,798

that psilocybin can help with, so one

thing to consider is that when people

: 1548

01:16:27,798 --> 01:16:31,198

enter enter perimenopause, and if that

depression again, it doesn't happen for

: 1549

01:16:31,198 --> 01:16:34,608

everyone, but it can happen, especially,

even for people who've never had it

: 1550

01:16:34,608 --> 01:16:38,263

before, um, um, so, You'll go to your

doctor, and the first thing the doctor's

: 1551

01:16:38,263 --> 01:16:42,313

going to do is prescribe you a selective

serotonin reuptake inhibitor, which

: 1552

01:16:42,313 --> 01:16:47,623

is an antidepressant, commonly called

an SS rri, or an SSNRI with selective

: 1553

01:16:47,623 --> 01:16:49,513

norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor.

: 1554

01:16:49,903 --> 01:16:52,633

And so you might be put on

one of those and there's

: 1555

01:16:52,638 --> 01:16:53,923

nothing wrong with those drugs.

: 1556

01:16:53,923 --> 01:16:55,303

I appreciate that they're out there.

: 1557

01:16:55,303 --> 01:16:58,093

They've helped many, many people,

including myself and the previous.

: 1558

01:16:58,353 --> 01:16:59,113

previous years.

: 1559

01:16:59,113 --> 01:17:02,273

I'm no longer on them now, but, and

I don't want anyone, I don't want to

: 1560

01:17:02,273 --> 01:17:05,543

encourage anyone to go off of their

medication if it's working for them

: 1561

01:17:05,543 --> 01:17:07,153

and if this is the right thing for you.

: 1562

01:17:07,173 --> 01:17:11,133

But I do have, I do take issue with

the medical community just to that

: 1563

01:17:11,163 --> 01:17:15,043

automatically and slapping it on

a woman in there in perimenopause

: 1564

01:17:15,063 --> 01:17:19,083

because, um, SSRIs have side effects.

: 1565

01:17:19,113 --> 01:17:23,243

And one of those side effects,

is low libido, or it can be.

: 1566

01:17:23,243 --> 01:17:26,683

It doesn't happen to everyone, but it

can happen, and also cause weight gain.

: 1567

01:17:26,683 --> 01:17:29,983

So now you're going into menopause,

you've got depression, they give

: 1568

01:17:29,983 --> 01:17:33,873

you the pill, um, the SSRI, you're

going to take every day, and it's

: 1569

01:17:33,873 --> 01:17:36,157

going to exacerbate symptoms, right?

: 1570

01:17:36,168 --> 01:17:38,698

So I have, I do have a

real problem with that.

: 1571

01:17:39,077 --> 01:17:44,447

And, um, what what we know about SSRIs

too, is not only do they blunt your, well,

: 1572

01:17:44,447 --> 01:17:45,657

they, they, well, they blunt your mood.

: 1573

01:17:45,847 --> 01:17:46,747

That's how they work.

: 1574

01:17:46,767 --> 01:17:48,416

And that's what the aim is.

: 1575

01:17:48,697 --> 01:17:51,467

But not only do they blunt your

lows, they also blunt your highs.

: 1576

01:17:51,760 --> 01:17:57,030

So now you're going into perimenopause,

you've got depression and you're,

: 1577

01:17:57,040 --> 01:17:58,120

you're struggling with like just.

: 1578

01:17:58,385 --> 01:18:01,255

other things in midlife like

taking care of your parents, taking

: 1579

01:18:01,255 --> 01:18:03,005

care of your doing your career.

: 1580

01:18:03,127 --> 01:18:06,597

And now you can't even lean

into all those joys as much.

: 1581

01:18:06,607 --> 01:18:10,217

You know, I, I struggle with people

just giving women these SSRIs.

: 1582

01:18:10,797 --> 01:18:11,077

Yeah.

: 1583

01:18:11,517 --> 01:18:15,597

And so, um, what we do know

about, uh, about psilocybin is

: 1584

01:18:15,597 --> 01:18:17,097

that it does not blunt mood.

: 1585

01:18:17,107 --> 01:18:20,987

So it activates your serotonin

receptors, but it doesn't blunt the mood.

: 1586

01:18:20,987 --> 01:18:24,607

Instead, what what people are

reporting through, and this Is coming

: 1587

01:18:24,607 --> 01:18:27,697

through in scientific research is

that it actually makes feel more

: 1588

01:18:27,697 --> 01:18:29,177

okay with your highs and lows.

: 1589

01:18:29,187 --> 01:18:31,797

So you just exist with

them in a normal way.

: 1590

01:18:32,097 --> 01:18:34,297

And you know, you're

not blunting that mood.

: 1591

01:18:34,317 --> 01:18:36,847

So I love that as a potential.

: 1592

01:18:37,087 --> 01:18:39,787

The other thing to consider is that

with an SSRI, you have to take it.

: 1593

01:18:39,955 --> 01:18:42,985

Every day for it to work and I've

experience where I've skipped

: 1594

01:18:42,985 --> 01:18:44,665

a pill, you know, in the past.

: 1595

01:18:44,665 --> 01:18:48,025

And then I was like, Oh gosh, I

feel like crap, you know, having

: 1596

01:18:48,025 --> 01:18:49,455

mood swings or something like that.

: 1597

01:18:49,455 --> 01:18:52,315

And so again, no longer have

I've had that experience.

: 1598

01:18:52,400 --> 01:18:55,135

And they're also very

difficult to get off of.

: 1599

01:18:55,425 --> 01:18:58,184

Um, you know, you might take it

for a while while you need it.

: 1600

01:18:58,650 --> 01:19:01,190

And then it's it's really

hard to taper off of them.

: 1601

01:19:01,190 --> 01:19:04,040

I had a horrendous time

getting off of I was on.

: 1602

01:19:04,470 --> 01:19:07,550

And so, you know, again, like

it's, it's one of those things.

: 1603

01:19:07,550 --> 01:19:10,850

It's like, um, again, I'm not

against these medications people,

: 1604

01:19:11,100 --> 01:19:14,790

but and there's another option,

I would try that first, you know?

: 1605

01:19:15,080 --> 01:19:20,380

And so, um, You know, going into the

discussion about libido, so commonly,

: 1606

01:19:20,790 --> 01:19:25,750

um, libido can, can go down, or sexual, I

should say female sexual dysfunction can

: 1607

01:19:25,780 --> 01:19:30,870

increase in that perimenopause time, and

female sexual dysfunction can encompass

: 1608

01:19:30,870 --> 01:19:35,230

so many things, it could be pain with

intercourse, it could be low libido, could

: 1609

01:19:35,230 --> 01:19:40,400

be, um, you know, inability to orgasm,

there are so many facets, you know.

: 1610

01:19:40,460 --> 01:19:41,320

of that.

: 1611

01:19:41,422 --> 01:19:44,272

But again, this can really

crop up in perimenopause.

: 1612

01:19:44,312 --> 01:19:48,272

And so, um, I don't want to be

people blunting their libido by

: 1613

01:19:48,272 --> 01:19:51,662

taking an SSRI if they don't need

to, if there's an alternative option.

: 1614

01:19:51,672 --> 01:19:53,432

So will boost your sex life?

: 1615

01:19:53,482 --> 01:19:55,282

This is something that

I like to talk about.

: 1616

01:19:55,732 --> 01:20:00,532

Um, so, uh, it's not necessarily

going to be this classic aphrodisiac,

: 1617

01:20:00,541 --> 01:20:04,032

like we're thinking of like something

like or oysters or whatever, like.

: 1618

01:20:04,317 --> 01:20:06,907

that people say, it's

not really like that.

: 1619

01:20:06,937 --> 01:20:10,977

Um, But what it may do is it

may boost your confidence.

: 1620

01:20:10,987 --> 01:20:14,247

So if you go off and do a macrodose

on your own, um, maybe you're not

: 1621

01:20:14,247 --> 01:20:16,577

doing it with your partner, you

go off and do that on your own.

: 1622

01:20:16,887 --> 01:20:20,277

It may boost your like confidence

in the bedroom and really like

: 1623

01:20:20,277 --> 01:20:23,827

voicing what you need from your

partner, which is a possibility.

: 1624

01:20:24,227 --> 01:20:27,197

Um, the other, The other thing to

consider is that there are some

: 1625

01:20:27,197 --> 01:20:30,497

things that are protective against

female sexual dysfunction and those.

: 1626

01:20:30,522 --> 01:20:35,212

things are having a positive body image

and having intimate partner communication.

: 1627

01:20:35,452 --> 01:20:38,272

And there's no guarantee that's

going to fix everything, but it

: 1628

01:20:38,272 --> 01:20:41,692

can really help be protective

against female sexual dysfunction.

: 1629

01:20:42,022 --> 01:20:45,502

And we do know through clinical

trials that psilocybin is being

: 1630

01:20:45,502 --> 01:20:46,922

studied for eating disorders.

: 1631

01:20:46,932 --> 01:20:49,692

There are like 11 types of

eating disorders out there.

: 1632

01:20:49,692 --> 01:20:53,162

But we think of one of the most

classic is anorexia nervosa.

: 1633

01:20:53,162 --> 01:20:54,522

And that's the one that it's.

: 1634

01:20:54,652 --> 01:20:56,242

being studied for the most right now.

: 1635

01:20:56,242 --> 01:20:57,932

I think also binge eating disorder.

: 1636

01:20:58,342 --> 01:21:01,872

Um, But we are learning that it

has is having beneficial effects

: 1637

01:21:01,882 --> 01:21:03,422

on these eating disorders.

: 1638

01:21:03,422 --> 01:21:07,122

And that has to do with something

that happens with angular gyrus in the

: 1639

01:21:07,132 --> 01:21:10,152

brain and reducing some rigidity there.

: 1640

01:21:10,242 --> 01:21:14,041

And so, um, I do think psilocybin

can help boost your body image.

: 1641

01:21:14,082 --> 01:21:17,622

And then also, um, I mentioned

intimate partner communication.

: 1642

01:21:17,632 --> 01:21:22,052

There's component of psilocybin

that in the brain that we didn't

: 1643

01:21:22,052 --> 01:21:25,082

quite Get to, but, um, I'll

just briefly explain it here.

: 1644

01:21:25,082 --> 01:21:28,272

There's this concept oceanic

boundlessness and another con, which

: 1645

01:21:28,712 --> 01:21:33,032

this like really beautiful, um,

connectivity that you can experience.

: 1646

01:21:33,352 --> 01:21:36,642

And to, to explain that I have to

go back to the default mode another

: 1647

01:21:36,642 --> 01:21:39,892

concept in psilocy, in, in psychedelics.

: 1648

01:21:39,892 --> 01:21:41,132

It's called ego death.

: 1649

01:21:41,182 --> 01:21:42,492

Um, And that scary.

: 1650

01:21:42,502 --> 01:21:45,092

Like, am I going to completely

lose my sense of self?

: 1651

01:21:45,122 --> 01:21:48,472

And that can happen on a, um, heroic dose.

: 1652

01:21:48,482 --> 01:21:50,242

So like you're going over five grams.

: 1653

01:21:50,602 --> 01:21:54,022

But in most macro doses, you're just

going to have really beneficial effects

: 1654

01:21:54,032 --> 01:21:57,992

of this what's called ego death and

what I mean by that So if you remember

: 1655

01:21:58,012 --> 01:22:03,892

default mode network is is involves your

of self and your ego Um, it's almost like

: 1656

01:22:03,892 --> 01:22:09,353

some of that dissolves and um instead

of being so focused on yourself You feel

: 1657

01:22:09,353 --> 01:22:11,858

this connection to the world around you.

: 1658

01:22:11,868 --> 01:22:16,378

It might be that you just feel, um,

some, some connections to the people

: 1659

01:22:16,378 --> 01:22:19,978

that you know and love, or you might

feel really connected to nature.

: 1660

01:22:19,978 --> 01:22:24,008

You might feel connected to the whole

dang universe, whatever it is, but that's

: 1661

01:22:24,008 --> 01:22:26,888

this concept called oceanic boundlessness.

: 1662

01:22:26,898 --> 01:22:30,868

And I experienced something so

profound during my psilocybin journey.

: 1663

01:22:31,178 --> 01:22:33,208

I'm just going to briefly explain

it, but it was definitely an

: 1664

01:22:33,208 --> 01:22:35,288

element of oceanic boundlessness.

: 1665

01:22:35,288 --> 01:22:39,813

I felt like I was connected to Threads of

light to everyone that I know and love.

: 1666

01:22:39,853 --> 01:22:44,668

And I could actually like feel the love

coming towards me and the love that I was

: 1667

01:22:44,678 --> 01:22:49,038

sending back almost like an electrical

current, you know, and you know, I was

: 1668

01:22:49,038 --> 01:22:52,398

only, I was doing just a two gram dose

profound because a lot of times we feel

: 1669

01:22:52,398 --> 01:22:57,008

like we, we know we have a support can,

uh, uh, you know, um, support system

: 1670

01:22:57,018 --> 01:23:00,258

out there, our friends and family, and

we know they love us and will support

: 1671

01:23:00,258 --> 01:23:00,508

us.

: 1672

01:23:01,373 --> 01:23:06,993

physically feel it is so amazing and

profound and so I was experiencing that

: 1673

01:23:06,993 --> 01:23:11,773

it was an element of oceanic boundlessness

and so I firmly believe that psilocybin

: 1674

01:23:11,773 --> 01:23:15,763

can help facilitate that intimate partner

communication and again that doesn't

: 1675

01:23:15,763 --> 01:23:19,318

mean that you have to like you and your

partner are going to like Hang out in

: 1676

01:23:19,327 --> 01:23:21,118

the bedroom and do shrooms and then get

: 1677

01:23:21,118 --> 01:23:21,808

all funky.

: 1678

01:23:21,818 --> 01:23:21,958

Like,

: 1679

01:23:21,968 --> 01:23:22,208

that's

: 1680

01:23:22,208 --> 01:23:23,028

not what I'm saying.

: 1681

01:23:23,648 --> 01:23:27,538

You can go off and do that on your own

and feel that increased connectivity

: 1682

01:23:28,088 --> 01:23:29,638

without your partner doing anything.

: 1683

01:23:29,638 --> 01:23:30,743

I mean, that's exactly to me.

: 1684

01:23:30,843 --> 01:23:35,763

I don't necessarily have like female

sexual dysfunction, but I, um,

: 1685

01:23:35,763 --> 01:23:39,713

I went off and did, you know, my

macro doses on my own with a guide.

: 1686

01:23:39,733 --> 01:23:42,164

And then I came back and my

husband hadn't done anything.

: 1687

01:23:42,164 --> 01:23:43,884

He was like sitting on

the porch the whole time.

: 1688

01:23:43,884 --> 01:23:48,174

I'm sure, you know, I

felt like I loved him.

: 1689

01:23:48,754 --> 01:23:52,943

Like to infinity, you know, it was

just like this exponential increase

: 1690

01:23:52,964 --> 01:23:54,454

in the love that I have for him.

: 1691

01:23:54,764 --> 01:23:57,474

And it wasn't that, like, we were

having marital problems to begin

: 1692

01:23:57,474 --> 01:23:59,614

with, or that I didn't love him, I do.

: 1693

01:23:59,943 --> 01:24:02,964

But it was just this increase, and

I was like, how did this happen?

: 1694

01:24:02,974 --> 01:24:04,844

He didn't do anything different, you know?

: 1695

01:24:05,214 --> 01:24:09,634

So I think that it can be really

profound in that way as well.

: 1696

01:24:10,374 --> 01:24:14,134

And then I wanted to get back to,

we'd already covered talking about

: 1697

01:24:14,164 --> 01:24:16,224

adverse childhood experiences.

: 1698

01:24:16,534 --> 01:24:21,044

So again, one in six adults has had four

or more adverse childhood experiences,

: 1699

01:24:21,054 --> 01:24:25,273

and those adverse childhood experiences

can exacerbate menopause symptoms.

: 1700

01:24:25,273 --> 01:24:26,124

We know this.

: 1701

01:24:26,584 --> 01:24:29,184

And so, especially if

you've had four or more.

: 1702

01:24:29,464 --> 01:24:33,724

And so, now that we're learning that

psilocybin can help with adverse

: 1703

01:24:33,724 --> 01:24:38,809

childhood experiences, help reduce that

psychological response, I think that it

: 1704

01:24:38,839 --> 01:24:44,439

can help with menopause symptoms as well

by reducing that psychological response to

: 1705

01:24:44,439 --> 01:24:46,818

our traumas that we've had in our lives.

: 1706

01:24:46,869 --> 01:24:46,999

So

: 1707

01:24:47,154 --> 01:24:47,794

-: 0720

so powerful.

: 1708

01:24:48,424 --> 01:24:48,964

Yeah.

: 1709

01:24:48,984 --> 01:24:49,724

I love it.

: 1710

01:24:49,784 --> 01:24:50,264

I love it.

: 1711

01:24:50,264 --> 01:24:55,044

And I think, thinking back to to the

rebus that you mentioned, that relaxed

: 1712

01:24:55,044 --> 01:24:59,334

beliefs under psychedelics, I think

that's huge too, when we're talking about.

: 1713

01:24:59,773 --> 01:25:03,054

Our libido and sex life because

I don't know a single woman

: 1714

01:25:03,054 --> 01:25:05,314

who's like super stressed out

and it's like, yeah Let's like

: 1715

01:25:05,574 --> 01:25:09,324

get it on I mean There's probably

a few of us that like maybe that's

: 1716

01:25:09,474 --> 01:25:11,943

our you know release and so we're

maybe more motivated in that

: 1717

01:25:11,943 --> 01:25:13,324

direction when we're super stressed

: 1718

01:25:14,704 --> 01:25:19,014

But I would say that's probably the

minority of women like typically You

: 1719

01:25:19,014 --> 01:25:23,324

know, if we're all up in our head

and stressed out, like that doesn't

: 1720

01:25:23,324 --> 01:25:24,034

feel sexy.

: 1721

01:25:25,514 --> 01:25:25,634

So,

: 1722

01:25:25,669 --> 01:25:27,169

-: 0720

No, it Like, yeah, if you're

: 1723

01:25:27,169 --> 01:25:27,879

super stressed, you're

: 1724

01:25:27,879 --> 01:25:28,079

like,

: 1725

01:25:28,214 --> 01:25:28,854

-: 0720

yeah.

: 1726

01:25:28,854 --> 01:25:32,184

So if I'm in a more of a, you know,

parasympathetic nervous system

: 1727

01:25:32,193 --> 01:25:36,314

state, like it's a lot more likely

that we'll be motivated that way.

: 1728

01:25:36,659 --> 01:25:37,049

-: 0720

yes.

: 1729

01:25:37,894 --> 01:25:40,934

-: 0720

Yeah, Yeah, Well, that's really, really

: 1730

01:25:40,934 --> 01:25:43,075

cool and really encouraging, I think, too.

: 1731

01:25:43,145 --> 01:25:45,718

And, you know, I'm a

big root cause person.

: 1732

01:25:45,718 --> 01:25:48,048

It's not like, we can always

identify, like, one root cause

: 1733

01:25:48,048 --> 01:25:50,418

and that's, you know, if you can

address that, it's the magic bullet.

: 1734

01:25:50,458 --> 01:25:51,588

Everything's fixed.

: 1735

01:25:51,848 --> 01:25:54,157

It's usually so multifactorial, right?

: 1736

01:25:54,258 --> 01:25:55,088

Multifaceted.

: 1737

01:25:55,291 --> 01:25:59,627

Um, but really am excited about

this because I, I believe that And

: 1738

01:25:59,627 --> 01:26:02,517

I think that, you know, in the way

that I said before, it can be a

: 1739

01:26:02,517 --> 01:26:06,317

little more of an enlightening option

versus like a numbing out option.

: 1740

01:26:06,916 --> 01:26:12,651

I think it gives us this opportunity to

start to go in and, you know, address

: 1741

01:26:12,661 --> 01:26:17,621

those adverse childhood experiences

that we've had address whatever.

: 1742

01:26:17,921 --> 01:26:18,491

Maybe there.

: 1743

01:26:19,026 --> 01:26:22,629

limiting beliefs, different things that

are going on that are holding us back.

: 1744

01:26:23,327 --> 01:26:26,797

to me, that's the most exciting aspect

of this is that you could really kind of

: 1745

01:26:26,797 --> 01:26:29,247

dive deeper to subconscious level, right?

: 1746

01:26:29,257 --> 01:26:30,797

Because it's usually

our subconscious mind.

: 1747

01:26:30,797 --> 01:26:36,184

That's the biggest roadblock I find when

it comes to really making the changes

: 1748

01:26:36,184 --> 01:26:40,074

in our lives that we need to make or

taking the steps forward that we need to

: 1749

01:26:40,074 --> 01:26:43,754

make to really bring all of our dreams

and goals into fruition and become like

: 1750

01:26:44,279 --> 01:26:46,599

Absolute best version of ourselves, right?

: 1751

01:26:47,039 --> 01:26:50,179

Fulfill our potential,

which we all want to do.

: 1752

01:26:50,259 --> 01:26:51,349

We all want to do that.

: 1753

01:26:51,359 --> 01:26:54,779

And I think that if we can kind of

remove all the roadblocks that stand in

: 1754

01:26:54,779 --> 01:27:00,489

the way of that, and this is one tool

for doing that, and it just opens up so

: 1755

01:27:00,489 --> 01:27:05,327

many possibilities by helping us kind

of root out like, Oh, what are these

: 1756

01:27:05,358 --> 01:27:07,570

hidden things that are stopping me?

: 1757

01:27:07,799 --> 01:27:11,199

I love the idea too, that you

have to kind of, if you're going

: 1758

01:27:11,199 --> 01:27:12,609

to do this in a macro dose.

: 1759

01:27:13,589 --> 01:27:18,919

Manner, you have to create space for

that space for yourself because it is

: 1760

01:27:19,479 --> 01:27:22,019

like going and getting a treatment and

: 1761

01:27:22,409 --> 01:27:24,629

you're going to feel, you know,

maybe wiped out the next day.

: 1762

01:27:24,629 --> 01:27:30,802

Like, you have to allow your body

and your mind to process this

: 1763

01:27:30,822 --> 01:27:33,087

and then do the integration work.

: 1764

01:27:33,097 --> 01:27:37,297

And that's what I want to talk about next

too, is, um, you mentioned integration.

: 1765

01:27:37,307 --> 01:27:40,767

So, you know, this isn't something

that you're going to take and like

: 1766

01:27:40,907 --> 01:27:42,957

magically everything's going to be.

: 1767

01:27:43,282 --> 01:27:45,022

Fixed for you the next day,

: 1768

01:27:45,032 --> 01:27:45,522

right?

: 1769

01:27:45,522 --> 01:27:49,162

Yeah.

: 1770

01:27:49,842 --> 01:27:52,452

-: 0720

So yes, like all of these things do

: 1771

01:27:52,462 --> 01:27:56,122

happen in your And then, you know,

that can have very beneficial effects.

: 1772

01:27:56,142 --> 01:28:00,332

And there are certainly instances where,

yes, people have used psilocybin and

: 1773

01:28:00,332 --> 01:28:03,912

then they automatically change something

about themselves or learn a new insight.

: 1774

01:28:03,942 --> 01:28:06,392

That's, That's great, but

that's it typically works.

: 1775

01:28:06,392 --> 01:28:06,977

You, okay.

: 1776

01:28:06,977 --> 01:28:09,187

Typically have to put in work yourself.

: 1777

01:28:09,217 --> 01:28:14,827

And so, um, you know, after my macro

dose, I was, you know, sitting there and

: 1778

01:28:14,827 --> 01:28:18,027

journaling and writing just kind of like

rapid fire, writing down any thought I

: 1779

01:28:18,137 --> 01:28:20,407

had about my journey and what did I learn?

: 1780

01:28:20,859 --> 01:28:24,789

Um, and then over time, of course, I was

writing the book and my first chapter.

: 1781

01:28:24,939 --> 01:28:31,568

Um, And so I wrote that

over and over again.

: 1782

01:28:31,568 --> 01:28:33,199

I was really thinking

about these insights.

: 1783

01:28:33,209 --> 01:28:37,045

So I was naturally doing integration

just by writing about my experience.

: 1784

01:28:37,055 --> 01:28:38,135

So that's one way.

: 1785

01:28:38,745 --> 01:28:42,125

But again, there's all these beautiful

communities out there that do, um,

: 1786

01:28:42,135 --> 01:28:45,519

like integration circles and you can

find them on zoom or you can do them in

: 1787

01:28:45,519 --> 01:28:48,849

person in your communities, depending

on where you live and things like that.

: 1788

01:28:48,859 --> 01:28:54,209

But, um, You know, those are really

beneficial to because you are usually

: 1789

01:28:54,209 --> 01:28:57,459

communicating with other people

in the circle who've had similar

: 1790

01:28:57,459 --> 01:29:00,809

experiences, meaning that they've

done some type of psychedelic and

: 1791

01:29:00,809 --> 01:29:05,179

they know some of these concepts like

that feeling of oceanic boundlessness.

: 1792

01:29:05,179 --> 01:29:07,939

Because if you start to explain, try

to explain that to someone who's never.

: 1793

01:29:08,209 --> 01:29:10,898

Felt it or known what

you're talking about.

: 1794

01:29:10,898 --> 01:29:13,749

I'm like, I was connected by threads

of light to everyone I know and love.

: 1795

01:29:13,749 --> 01:29:15,789

They're going to think

I'm crazy and woo, right?

: 1796

01:29:15,844 --> 01:29:16,193

-: 0720

Yes.

: 1797

01:29:17,145 --> 01:29:19,845

-: 0720

And, um, and so, you know, it's really

: 1798

01:29:19,845 --> 01:29:22,825

beneficial to be things with other

people who've done that, or just

: 1799

01:29:22,825 --> 01:29:26,835

are like minded about these things

so that they can, um, help you.

: 1800

01:29:26,835 --> 01:29:30,514

And they can help you learn insights that

maybe didn't, that you didn't recognize.

: 1801

01:29:30,514 --> 01:29:32,188

You just talk about your experience.

: 1802

01:29:32,789 --> 01:29:34,839

Um, and then they help help you with that.

: 1803

01:29:34,839 --> 01:29:35,869

And there's some great communities.

: 1804

01:29:35,869 --> 01:29:38,429

I want to mention there's

moms on mushrooms.

: 1805

01:29:38,449 --> 01:29:39,068

It's M O.

: 1806

01:29:39,068 --> 01:29:39,089

M.

: 1807

01:29:39,239 --> 01:29:41,079

that was created by Tracy T.

: 1808

01:29:41,079 --> 01:29:45,199

And it's really just a community of

moms who are, uh, you know, open about

: 1809

01:29:45,199 --> 01:29:48,599

their mushroom use and they're sharing

resources and talking to each other.

: 1810

01:29:48,599 --> 01:29:50,799

There are educational components to it.

: 1811

01:29:50,799 --> 01:29:52,304

There's integration circles.

: 1812

01:29:52,349 --> 01:29:55,004

She's just doing a really great

job of reducing stigma for

: 1813

01:29:55,284 --> 01:29:57,164

parents who might be community.

: 1814

01:29:57,179 --> 01:29:58,529

You know, using magic mushrooms.

: 1815

01:29:58,919 --> 01:30:02,567

And then also, um, there's the Flourish

Academy, which I think is great

: 1816

01:30:02,637 --> 01:30:07,497

and they are doing, um, different

educational components as well.

: 1817

01:30:07,497 --> 01:30:10,184

Um, also recommend

looking up, April Pride.

: 1818

01:30:10,184 --> 01:30:13,675

she has a couple of different

programs that, um, so she can do

: 1819

01:30:14,035 --> 01:30:17,962

some, some work with people who

are, uh, starting to microdose and

: 1820

01:30:17,962 --> 01:30:19,222

just need to gain their footing.

: 1821

01:30:19,222 --> 01:30:21,622

She has a great microdosing

journal out there.

: 1822

01:30:21,982 --> 01:30:25,791

Um, So there are a lot of people out there

that are in this space that are trying to.

: 1823

01:30:26,317 --> 01:30:27,697

foster this community.

: 1824

01:30:27,916 --> 01:30:29,567

So integration can be done that way.

: 1825

01:30:29,577 --> 01:30:32,759

It can also be done with like

an integration therapist.

: 1826

01:30:32,759 --> 01:30:36,549

So there are there are certainly

psychedelic assistant therapists out there

: 1827

01:30:36,759 --> 01:30:41,239

who help, who, who work with people while

they're actually on the psilocybin, like

: 1828

01:30:41,239 --> 01:30:45,039

they're while you're macro dosing, you're

with a psychiatrist or a psychologist,

: 1829

01:30:45,369 --> 01:30:46,829

they're not interfering with your journey.

: 1830

01:30:46,829 --> 01:30:50,159

They're just there to support you

with you afterwards doing integration.

: 1831

01:30:50,439 --> 01:30:53,996

But there are also therapists out

there that just, And so you don't

: 1832

01:30:54,006 --> 01:30:58,780

necessarily have to do the, the, um,

psilocybin with a, with a psychologist.

: 1833

01:30:58,780 --> 01:31:01,450

You might just work with

the therapist afterwards.

: 1834

01:31:01,890 --> 01:31:05,570

Um, and then, you know, again, you

can do a lot of that integration

: 1835

01:31:05,570 --> 01:31:07,610

yourself again by writing or just.

: 1836

01:31:07,785 --> 01:31:12,365

thinking or meditating and really

like remembering what came up for you.

: 1837

01:31:12,615 --> 01:31:14,975

And the beauty of integration

is that it's ongoing.

: 1838

01:31:14,975 --> 01:31:17,145

It's not like you just

do it for the next day.

: 1839

01:31:17,395 --> 01:31:19,295

It's something that you just keep doing.

: 1840

01:31:19,295 --> 01:31:21,715

Like I think about my

macro doses all the time.

: 1841

01:31:21,715 --> 01:31:22,985

And what did I learn during them?

: 1842

01:31:22,985 --> 01:31:25,075

And I continue to gain new insights.

: 1843

01:31:25,075 --> 01:31:29,705

I continue to make behavior changes

for myself based on those insights.

: 1844

01:31:30,025 --> 01:31:34,066

And you know, I spent a, it's been

a year since my big macro dose.

: 1845

01:31:34,066 --> 01:31:36,991

And so I'm continuing

to learn from that very.

: 1846

01:31:38,071 --> 01:31:41,201

One single experience

and it's, it's beautiful.

: 1847

01:31:41,581 --> 01:31:43,651

But again, um, it's not a magic bullet.

: 1848

01:31:43,651 --> 01:31:45,591

You do have to do that integration work.

: 1849

01:31:45,821 --> 01:31:48,621

And that helps you make some

of those behavior changes.

: 1850

01:31:48,631 --> 01:31:51,541

And of course, you have to take

initiative to make those behavior changes.

: 1851

01:31:51,550 --> 01:31:55,971

So if you're trying to stop the online

shopping, you have to consciously

: 1852

01:31:55,981 --> 01:31:59,221

think about that and consciously

behavior changes, but you're,

: 1853

01:31:59,300 --> 01:32:02,141

you might be in a better place to

make after using full assignment.

: 1854

01:32:02,201 --> 01:32:02,441

-: 0720

Yeah.

: 1855

01:32:02,441 --> 01:32:05,751

And that brings me to one concept

that, you know, we've sort of

: 1856

01:32:05,751 --> 01:32:08,141

touched on indirectly, but that's

: 1857

01:32:08,141 --> 01:32:08,751

motivation.

: 1858

01:32:09,005 --> 01:32:13,005

And how this can shift your motivation,

because like you said, you know, where I

: 1859

01:32:13,005 --> 01:32:15,625

would have been maybe having a glass of

wine or two every night, like now it's

: 1860

01:32:15,625 --> 01:32:17,045

like, maybe I have them once a week.

: 1861

01:32:17,075 --> 01:32:22,045

If that, like, I mean, that's a big

shift in one's or your, just your level

: 1862

01:32:22,045 --> 01:32:24,325

of motivation to make the changes.

: 1863

01:32:24,825 --> 01:32:26,715

and that's something that so

many people struggle with.

: 1864

01:32:26,765 --> 01:32:27,895

I think that there's a lot of.

: 1865

01:32:28,500 --> 01:32:32,090

Uh, Misconceptions what motivation is

that we should always feel motivated

: 1866

01:32:32,090 --> 01:32:35,410

and always feel like, you know, Oh,

you know, once I make these changes,

: 1867

01:32:35,450 --> 01:32:38,212

like I'm always going to feel motivated

to eat healthy and hit the the gym.

: 1868

01:32:38,212 --> 01:32:40,552

And it's like, that's just not reality.

: 1869

01:32:40,662 --> 01:32:45,302

Um, but yeah, dive into that just briefly,

because I know we're, we're getting

: 1870

01:32:45,302 --> 01:32:46,772

short on time, but I think that this is a

: 1871

01:32:46,772 --> 01:32:47,522

really important

: 1872

01:32:47,812 --> 01:32:48,632

piece to touch on.

: 1873

01:32:50,187 --> 01:32:52,057

-: 0720

Yeah, think part of it is that, yeah,

: 1874

01:32:52,057 --> 01:32:56,557

you may not feel motivated to make these

changes all the time, but what what may

: 1875

01:32:56,557 --> 01:33:00,187

be a benefit is I was, so I was mentioning

that psilocybin makes you feel more

: 1876

01:33:00,187 --> 01:33:04,057

okay with your highs and lows rather

than sort of like blunting your mood.

: 1877

01:33:04,457 --> 01:33:08,297

And, um, so I think you end up

feeling more okay with just your.

: 1878

01:33:08,467 --> 01:33:11,137

present life, your present state of mind.

: 1879

01:33:11,547 --> 01:33:14,416

And, of times we're, we're, you

know, constantly ruminating about

: 1880

01:33:14,416 --> 01:33:16,177

the past or the future or whatever.

: 1881

01:33:16,177 --> 01:33:20,587

And, you know, that leads us to want

to numb out in way, whether that's

: 1882

01:33:20,597 --> 01:33:25,032

grabbing wine, um, Adding something

to your online cart or, you know,

: 1883

01:33:25,032 --> 01:33:28,832

whatever it is that is that is

getting, that is a roadblock for you.

: 1884

01:33:29,142 --> 01:33:33,662

Um, but if you okay with just

your everyday existence, that

: 1885

01:33:33,702 --> 01:33:36,382

makes you less to, to numb out.

: 1886

01:33:36,422 --> 01:33:41,077

and and when you're not doing the

numbing out, you, you open up other.

: 1887

01:33:41,277 --> 01:33:41,687

-: 0720

Yeah.

: 1888

01:33:44,322 --> 01:33:45,902

-: 0720

And part of that is like, it gives

: 1889

01:33:45,902 --> 01:33:47,791

you a boost in motivation, you know?

: 1890

01:33:47,791 --> 01:33:51,462

So I'll just, I've, I've gotten into

strength training lately and I love it.

: 1891

01:33:51,462 --> 01:33:54,791

And it's such a beneficial thing in

perimenopause, like build that muscle

: 1892

01:33:54,791 --> 01:33:55,482

because it's really

: 1893

01:33:55,622 --> 01:33:59,562

healthy, but it's, it's not like I'm

can't wait to hit the weights today.

: 1894

01:33:59,602 --> 01:34:00,062

You know?

: 1895

01:34:00,132 --> 01:34:01,692

I don't necessarily have that.

: 1896

01:34:02,112 --> 01:34:05,922

I mean, I I do love exercise to a

certain point, but um, but yeah,

: 1897

01:34:05,922 --> 01:34:06,922

there are days where I'm like, eh,

: 1898

01:34:07,552 --> 01:34:09,032

but, you know, I'm tracking.

: 1899

01:34:09,697 --> 01:34:13,987

tracking my progress, like, Oh, I'm

adding more by I'm adding more weights

: 1900

01:34:13,987 --> 01:34:18,137

to my bicep curls, and I get really

excited to see progress in the mirror.

: 1901

01:34:18,537 --> 01:34:22,577

And loving that it's not necessarily

like I'm trying to like reshape my body,

: 1902

01:34:22,577 --> 01:34:24,737

but I love like seeing the muscle form.

: 1903

01:34:24,777 --> 01:34:29,267

And that can help motivate you to

the more progress that you make with

: 1904

01:34:29,277 --> 01:34:31,597

something that increases your motivation.

: 1905

01:34:31,607 --> 01:34:34,687

And when we're doing less

numbing out, that makes us

: 1906

01:34:34,687 --> 01:34:36,307

more available to access that

: 1907

01:34:36,307 --> 01:34:37,077

motivation.

: 1908

01:34:37,121 --> 01:34:37,422

-: 0720

that.

: 1909

01:34:37,462 --> 01:34:37,702

Yeah.

: 1910

01:34:37,702 --> 01:34:39,022

That's really powerful.

: 1911

01:34:39,092 --> 01:34:40,132

It's so powerful.

: 1912

01:34:40,433 --> 01:34:44,633

Um, because I think, yeah, it,

it kind of is enabling more

: 1913

01:34:44,633 --> 01:34:45,452

consistency

: 1914

01:34:47,188 --> 01:34:47,528

-: 0720

Mm hmm.

: 1915

01:34:48,452 --> 01:34:48,493

-: 0720

gets

: 1916

01:34:48,493 --> 01:34:48,763

results.

: 1917

01:34:49,073 --> 01:34:49,383

I mean,

: 1918

01:34:50,643 --> 01:34:51,543

yeah, it.

: 1919

01:34:51,543 --> 01:34:51,853

Love it.

: 1920

01:34:51,883 --> 01:34:52,463

That's awesome.

: 1921

01:34:52,463 --> 01:34:52,753

That's awesome.

: 1922

01:34:52,753 --> 01:34:54,202

Um, so let's.

: 1923

01:34:54,656 --> 01:34:56,706

You mentioned psychedelic

assisted therapy.

: 1924

01:34:56,736 --> 01:34:58,666

I know that this is not legal everywhere.

: 1925

01:34:58,666 --> 01:35:03,012

So, um, and you know, know you're

not a legal expert, but just give

: 1926

01:35:03,032 --> 01:35:06,812

me, give us a little overview, um,

if people are interested in getting

: 1927

01:35:06,812 --> 01:35:09,972

started in this, like, what do they do?

: 1928

01:35:09,972 --> 01:35:10,212

Where do

: 1929

01:35:10,212 --> 01:35:10,732

they go?

: 1930

01:35:10,742 --> 01:35:11,291

How does it

: 1931

01:35:11,392 --> 01:35:11,832

work?

: 1932

01:35:13,572 --> 01:35:14,402

-: 0720

Yeah, of course.

: 1933

01:35:14,422 --> 01:35:19,022

So federally psilocybin is still illegal

and it's a schedule one substance,

: 1934

01:35:19,041 --> 01:35:23,460

meaning it's like considered up there

with like heroin or whatever it's

: 1935

01:35:23,460 --> 01:35:27,180

considered not to have any medical

benefit, you know, which is so outdated.

: 1936

01:35:27,190 --> 01:35:30,230

And I know that the DEA knows

this and they I'm hoping that

: 1937

01:35:30,240 --> 01:35:31,840

it will eventually get changed.

: 1938

01:35:32,353 --> 01:35:35,501

Likely what we'll see is

that MDMA will get changed.

: 1939

01:35:35,501 --> 01:35:35,508

Right.

: 1940

01:35:35,718 --> 01:35:40,218

Uh, Approved by the FDA for psychedelic

assisted therapy, and I would say sometime

: 1941

01:35:40,218 --> 01:35:44,088

in the near future, like sometime this

year, I would think, and then after

: 1942

01:35:44,088 --> 01:35:47,487

that, like, psilocybin will follow

closely behind, and that's simply because

: 1943

01:35:47,528 --> 01:35:51,628

MDMA, we're further along with clinical

trials related to MDMA than we are with

: 1944

01:35:51,628 --> 01:35:56,293

psilocybin, we're in, there's tons of

clinical trials, and, and Um, phase three

: 1945

01:35:56,293 --> 01:36:00,193

clinical trials in the works with two, but

we're just not as far as we are with MDMA,

: 1946

01:36:00,933 --> 01:36:03,753

but going into where, where is it legal?

: 1947

01:36:03,753 --> 01:36:09,103

So, um, it's legal in certain contexts

in, um, let's see, it would be Colorado.

: 1948

01:36:09,593 --> 01:36:12,343

and in, um, Oregon state.

: 1949

01:36:12,373 --> 01:36:13,803

So those are the two states.

: 1950

01:36:13,909 --> 01:36:16,639

And then we've got a couple of,

we've got a few cities out there.

: 1951

01:36:16,639 --> 01:36:17,199

So D.

: 1952

01:36:17,199 --> 01:36:17,669

C.

: 1953

01:36:17,669 --> 01:36:20,612

there's, um, so there's

decriminalization in D.

: 1954

01:36:20,612 --> 01:36:25,333

C., um, Which like police generally

aren't prosecuting anyone with

: 1955

01:36:25,333 --> 01:36:28,553

like a personal amount on them

or, you know, personal usage.

: 1956

01:36:28,615 --> 01:36:30,014

If you were like growing, mass

: 1957

01:36:30,014 --> 01:36:31,295

producing, but it

: 1958

01:36:31,295 --> 01:36:31,895

might be a Different

: 1959

01:36:31,895 --> 01:36:32,264

story.

: 1960

01:36:32,264 --> 01:36:32,335

but,

: 1961

01:36:32,945 --> 01:36:33,785

um, yeah.

: 1962

01:36:34,580 --> 01:36:37,400

copious amounts of shrooms

in your dank closet.

: 1963

01:36:37,440 --> 01:36:37,590

-: 0720

that.

: 1964

01:36:38,880 --> 01:36:39,120

Yeah.

: 1965

01:36:39,210 --> 01:36:41,760

-: 0720

But um, and then there's legalization,

: 1966

01:36:41,800 --> 01:36:45,460

or there's certain elements of

legalization and in Ann Arbor, Michigan.

: 1967

01:36:45,770 --> 01:36:48,790

And then lots of states actually

have legislation in the works.

: 1968

01:36:48,800 --> 01:36:52,520

There, you know, we're going to see

it follow a similar pattern like

: 1969

01:36:52,520 --> 01:36:55,719

we did with cannabis, where we've

had a few states that legalized

: 1970

01:36:55,719 --> 01:36:57,590

it in certain contexts and now.

: 1971

01:36:57,934 --> 01:37:01,469

Almost, uh, like most of, over

half of states have some type

: 1972

01:37:01,469 --> 01:37:02,889

of legalization for cannabis.

: 1973

01:37:02,889 --> 01:37:06,930

It's even more than that, but, um, Uh,

but so we're going to see a pattern

: 1974

01:37:06,940 --> 01:37:11,210

like that happen and then eventually

hopefully psilocybin will be descheduled

: 1975

01:37:11,230 --> 01:37:13,660

is what, what I'm, what I'm hoping to see.

: 1976

01:37:13,753 --> 01:37:17,428

But in terms of like, okay, what if you

don't live in one of these states, does

: 1977

01:37:17,428 --> 01:37:19,398

that mean it's totally off limits to you?

: 1978

01:37:19,788 --> 01:37:23,553

Um, Well, want to encourage you to

break any laws, so but you do you,

: 1979

01:37:24,563 --> 01:37:26,733

and so I, you know, I will tell you.

: 1980

01:37:27,428 --> 01:37:28,978

Well, no, yeah, I want you to be safe.

: 1981

01:37:28,978 --> 01:37:30,407

I don't want you to go

to jail for anything.

: 1982

01:37:30,448 --> 01:37:34,508

Um, But you know, there are under, I

will tell you are underground guides

: 1983

01:37:34,508 --> 01:37:38,848

out there that will help you, they will

meet you where you need to go to do, um,

: 1984

01:37:38,878 --> 01:37:41,458

a civil assignment journey, if that's

something that you're looking to do.

: 1985

01:37:41,498 --> 01:37:46,183

I myself hired an underground

guide and, um, and he was fabulous.

: 1986

01:37:46,202 --> 01:37:48,003

And I, I give his name in the book.

: 1987

01:37:48,013 --> 01:37:48,853

He was amazing.

: 1988

01:37:48,853 --> 01:37:52,573

I trusted him fully and,

And felt very safe with him.

: 1989

01:37:52,583 --> 01:37:55,683

Um, he also brought his mom

with him, which was really cool.

: 1990

01:37:56,173 --> 01:37:59,393

She, she was my trip setter and he

was the guide and it was really great.

: 1991

01:37:59,675 --> 01:38:01,425

Um, but I write about

that fully in the books.

: 1992

01:38:01,425 --> 01:38:05,025

I won't dive into it too much, but,

um, but yeah, there are options.

: 1993

01:38:05,045 --> 01:38:10,425

Plus there are other countries that

um, decriminalization or some form

: 1994

01:38:10,425 --> 01:38:12,855

of legalization that do retreats.

: 1995

01:38:12,895 --> 01:38:15,945

Um, I will caution people that if

you are going on any retreat or

: 1996

01:38:15,945 --> 01:38:19,295

working with an underground guide

or even an above ground therapist.

: 1997

01:38:19,457 --> 01:38:22,097

To do your research on person is there.

: 1998

01:38:22,137 --> 01:38:25,627

Um, and, and then, you know,

like reviews, um, stuff.

: 1999

01:38:25,897 --> 01:38:29,647

You're like, do you want to raise the

issue that there are there are problems

: 2000

01:38:29,647 --> 01:38:34,246

with, um, with sexual assault in the

psychedelic industry, just as they are.

: 2001

01:38:34,257 --> 01:38:37,416

There are problems with sexual

assault in every industry.

: 2002

01:38:37,416 --> 01:38:37,857

Right.

: 2003

01:38:38,257 --> 01:38:41,537

So it's not a surprise that it happens

in the psychedelic industry too.

: 2004

01:38:41,567 --> 01:38:44,907

And if anyone wants to know more

about that, I do write about that

: 2005

01:38:44,937 --> 01:38:48,347

extensively in the book, but there's

also a great podcast out there.

: 2006

01:38:48,627 --> 01:38:51,007

It's called cover story power trip.

: 2007

01:38:51,047 --> 01:38:55,666

And this was put out by New York magazine

and one of the producers and hosts.

: 2008

01:38:55,687 --> 01:38:56,657

of the podcast.

: 2009

01:38:56,657 --> 01:38:57,337

Her name is Dr.

: 2010

01:38:57,337 --> 01:38:57,837

Lily K.

: 2011

01:38:57,837 --> 01:39:00,677

Ross, and she talks about her own

sexual assault in the psychedelic

: 2012

01:39:00,887 --> 01:39:04,217

industry, and she interviews other

people that this has happened to.

: 2013

01:39:04,217 --> 01:39:08,916

And I don't say this to scare people, but

it is like any other industry, and then

: 2014

01:39:08,967 --> 01:39:13,207

where sexual assault happens, plus when

you are on a psychedelic, because of

: 2015

01:39:13,227 --> 01:39:18,382

that Rebus situation, You're extremely

vulnerable and open to suggestibility.

: 2016

01:39:18,402 --> 01:39:21,121

So you with people who honor consent.

: 2017

01:39:21,392 --> 01:39:25,712

And again, I dive extensively into

how do you, how do you honor that?

: 2018

01:39:25,892 --> 01:39:29,102

How is that consent navigated or

how should it be navigated and

: 2019

01:39:29,102 --> 01:39:30,532

what red flags to watch out for?

: 2020

01:39:30,532 --> 01:39:30,742

There's a

: 2021

01:39:30,742 --> 01:39:30,912

whole

: 2022

01:39:31,172 --> 01:39:32,012

-: 0720

Okay, great.

: 2023

01:39:32,222 --> 01:39:34,352

And that leads me to my, my last question.

: 2024

01:39:34,882 --> 01:39:37,182

and the safety of the

actual substance itself.

: 2025

01:39:37,212 --> 01:39:39,434

And, you know, growing

conditions, et cetera.

: 2026

01:39:39,434 --> 01:39:43,753

I mean, I know any kind of mushroom

can uptake all kinds of things like

: 2027

01:39:43,753 --> 01:39:45,663

metals and, and such from the soil.

: 2028

01:39:45,683 --> 01:39:51,616

So, um, as far as people acquiring the

actual, you know, psilocybin itself, what

: 2029

01:39:51,646 --> 01:39:51,996

uh,

: 2030

01:39:52,709 --> 01:39:53,648

-: 0720

yeah, definitely some,

: 2031

01:39:53,679 --> 01:39:55,209

some good considerations.

: 2032

01:39:55,219 --> 01:39:59,811

So there, um, there are, uh, testing

kits that you can buy through, um,

: 2033

01:39:59,851 --> 01:40:01,861

an organization called dance safe.

: 2034

01:40:01,975 --> 01:40:05,025

So I would recommend testing because

you want to make sure that, like,

: 2035

01:40:05,025 --> 01:40:08,705

if you're ordering, um, you know,

psilocybin mushroom capsules,

: 2036

01:40:08,725 --> 01:40:11,289

because a lot of people grind up the

mushroom, and put it in a capsule.

: 2037

01:40:11,289 --> 01:40:13,179

You want to make sure you're not

getting something that you don't want,

: 2038

01:40:13,189 --> 01:40:14,689

like fentanyl or something like that.

: 2039

01:40:15,139 --> 01:40:18,609

Um, you know, I I, I don't know

if that's really occurred, but

: 2040

01:40:18,609 --> 01:40:19,919

you just want to test everything.

: 2041

01:40:19,929 --> 01:40:21,989

Like DanceSafe is this great organization.

: 2042

01:40:21,989 --> 01:40:26,452

They recommend testing all, any substance

that you take like Um, in terms of

: 2043

01:40:26,452 --> 01:40:28,343

like metals and things like that.

: 2044

01:40:28,343 --> 01:40:32,263

So, you know, certainly, um,

That is a concern just as it

: 2045

01:40:32,263 --> 01:40:33,813

is in the cannabis industry.

: 2046

01:40:33,823 --> 01:40:38,013

What I love about the cannabis industry

is that, um, you know, if I'm looking

: 2047

01:40:38,013 --> 01:40:41,043

at a product online at a dispense,

you know, that I'm going to go and

: 2048

01:40:41,043 --> 01:40:44,633

get at a dispensary or something,

the certificate of analysis and see

: 2049

01:40:44,633 --> 01:40:48,193

what the heavy metals are, what, you

know, the levels are of each, um,

: 2050

01:40:48,253 --> 01:40:50,263

cannabinoid that's in the cannabis.

: 2051

01:40:50,273 --> 01:40:51,143

I can learn that.

: 2052

01:40:51,173 --> 01:40:53,862

I hope that we get to a point

where we have some of those

: 2053

01:40:53,862 --> 01:40:55,303

certificate of analysis.

: 2054

01:40:55,653 --> 01:41:02,566

For, um, for mushrooms as well, because

that will help increase safety, but that

: 2055

01:41:02,576 --> 01:41:07,866

all comes with legalization because, you

know, who's, who's encouraging the random

: 2056

01:41:07,866 --> 01:41:12,791

guy growing mushrooms in his closet to put

out a third party lab test, you know, on a

: 2057

01:41:12,791 --> 01:41:14,462

certificate of analysis, right?

: 2058

01:41:15,392 --> 01:41:20,452

So So yes, you do have to be careful about

what you're getting and where you will

: 2059

01:41:20,452 --> 01:41:25,405

find that like if in places where we've

got legalization and they are being the

: 2060

01:41:25,415 --> 01:41:28,684

that's being sold at dispensaries, you

can you can sometimes get that certificate

: 2061

01:41:28,684 --> 01:41:33,105

of analysis already, but it's just

more so in places where we don't have

: 2062

01:41:33,135 --> 01:41:36,860

legalization or decriminalization where

you're not going necessarily find that.

: 2063

01:41:37,380 --> 01:41:41,434

But yeah, is what I recommend for now

in terms of like just Just buying a test

: 2064

01:41:41,434 --> 01:41:46,965

kit, testing everything that you, taking,

whether that is MDMA, um, LSD, cannabis,

: 2065

01:41:46,975 --> 01:41:47,275

whatever

: 2066

01:41:47,355 --> 01:41:47,865

-: 0720

Awesome.

: 2067

01:41:47,934 --> 01:41:51,135

And we'll put those resources in

the show notes for you guys too.

: 2068

01:41:51,145 --> 01:41:52,843

So, Will link to all of that.

: 2069

01:41:53,053 --> 01:41:56,053

So tell us where can people find you?

: 2070

01:41:56,053 --> 01:41:57,643

Where can they get your book?

: 2071

01:41:57,803 --> 01:41:58,633

-: 0720

The book is available

: 2072

01:41:58,633 --> 01:41:59,713

anywhere books are sold.

: 2073

01:41:59,823 --> 01:42:02,793

I always encourage people to support

their local independent bookstore.

: 2074

01:42:02,793 --> 01:42:06,593

That's my favorite, but you can, you

know, buy wherever you get your books.

: 2075

01:42:06,933 --> 01:42:10,293

And then, um, you can find me

on, uh, I'm on, you know, all

: 2076

01:42:10,293 --> 01:42:11,483

the social media channels.

: 2077

01:42:11,523 --> 01:42:12,983

I'm at Jen Chesick.

: 2078

01:42:12,983 --> 01:42:15,448

So that's the at symbol and then J E N.

: 2079

01:42:15,643 --> 01:42:17,893

C H E S A K.

: 2080

01:42:18,143 --> 01:42:22,343

happy to have you follow me and uh, say

hi and feel free to DM me if you have

: 2081

01:42:22,343 --> 01:42:25,253

questions after, you know, if you've

read the book and you've got questions

: 2082

01:42:25,273 --> 01:42:28,112

or you've heard the podcast and you've

got questions, I'm always happy to

: 2083

01:42:28,112 --> 01:42:30,663

answer DMs as best as I, that I can.

: 2084

01:42:30,673 --> 01:42:33,153

I can't necessarily give medical

advice, but I can, you know,

: 2085

01:42:34,452 --> 01:42:34,763

point you

: 2086

01:42:34,763 --> 01:42:35,032

towards

: 2087

01:42:35,032 --> 01:42:35,653

resources.

: 2088

01:42:36,118 --> 01:42:37,327

-: 0720

I love it and i'll put all of that

: 2089

01:42:37,327 --> 01:42:40,718

in the show notes for you as well so

you can find jen Thank you so much.

: 2090

01:42:40,718 --> 01:42:44,487

This has been really fascinating and

super fun And I so appreciate you taking

: 2091

01:42:44,487 --> 01:42:50,318

the time to come and talk to us about

this um, and yeah, I excited to continue

: 2092

01:42:50,318 --> 01:42:55,088

reading your book because it's just like

more interesting to me than any novel.

: 2093

01:42:57,308 --> 01:42:57,968

I love it.

: 2094

01:42:58,258 --> 01:42:59,428

I love And I really appreciate your

: 2095

01:42:59,428 --> 01:42:59,758

work.

: 2096

01:42:59,758 --> 01:43:00,188

So

: 2097

01:43:00,418 --> 01:43:01,487

-: 0720

Thank you so much.

: 2098

01:43:01,487 --> 01:43:01,868

That is So

: 2099

01:43:01,868 --> 01:43:02,308

sweet.

: 2100

01:43:02,378 --> 01:43:03,308

-: 0720

have to have you back one of these

: 2101

01:43:03,308 --> 01:43:04,728

days and we'll we'll do like a

: 2102

01:43:04,728 --> 01:43:05,248

deeper dive

: 2103

01:43:05,248 --> 01:43:06,218

on one of these smaller

: 2104

01:43:06,268 --> 01:43:06,657

-: 0720

Thank you.

: 2105

01:43:06,657 --> 01:43:07,018

I thank you.

: 2106

01:43:07,018 --> 01:43:07,588

for having me

: 2107

01:43:07,657 --> 01:43:08,157

-: 0720

topics.

: 2108

01:43:08,448 --> 01:43:08,808

-: 0720

Yeah,

: 2109

01:43:08,808 --> 01:43:09,668

I would love to.

: 2110

01:43:09,855 --> 01:43:10,195

We could do

: 2111

01:43:10,195 --> 01:43:11,585

like a whole thing on Menopause

: 2112

01:43:12,875 --> 01:43:15,905

Menopause nutrition and

muscle building and all that.

: 2113

01:43:16,264 --> 01:43:16,844

-: 0720

Yes.

: 2114

01:43:16,885 --> 01:43:17,285

Yes.

: 2115

01:43:17,525 --> 01:43:17,875

I love

: 2116

01:43:17,945 --> 01:43:18,415

-: 0720

all right.

: 2117

01:43:18,945 --> 01:43:19,475

-: 0720

All right.

: 2118

01:43:21,148 --> 01:43:21,735

Thanks Jen.

: 2119

01:43:21,745 --> 01:43:23,025

Thanks for joining us, everybody.

: 2120

01:43:23,045 --> 01:43:23,865

And we'll see you next time.