In the latest episode of the Happier at Work podcast, I had an insightful conversation with Ronan Gallagher, a seasoned lawyer turned people trainer, and author. Ronan shared different perspectives on personality types, emotional intelligence, and their impact on workplace dynamics. 

Ronan discussed the challenges of applying a single right way approach to dealing with people, emphasising that individuals are complex and not black and white. He shed light on the "performer" and "boss" personality types, exploring the impact of childhood experiences on these traits.

We also talked about Enneagram personality types, and Ronan emphasised the importance of understanding oneself and recognising clashes between different types in a team setting. Ronan's insights highlighted how raising awareness and understanding of these styles can help resolve conflicts and improve team dynamics.

Ronan delved into the subconscious mind's influence on behavior, revealing that our personalities are mostly formed in the first seven years of life. He emphasised the impact of subconscious programming on behaviors and beliefs, underlining the need for empathy and understanding in the workplace.

The main points throughout this podcast include:

• The challenges of applying a single right way approach to dealing with people.
• The importance of understanding oneself and recognising clashes between different types in a team setting.
• The impact of subconscious programming on behaviors and beliefs, and the need for empathy and understanding in the workplace.
• The challenges of leaving established careers for more fulfilling work and the impact of subconscious triggers on interactions with others.
• The importance of recognising and processing feelings of shame about one's personality type as a natural part of growth.

Do you have any feedback or thoughts on this discussion? If so, please connect with Aoife via the links below and let her know. Aoife would love to hear from you!

Connect with Ronan:

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Connect with Happier at Work host Aoife O’Brien:

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Mentioned in this episode:

Imposter Identity

Imposter Identity

Ronan, you're so welcome to the Happier at Work podcast. I've been looking forward to this conversation for quite some time now. I have dived into your book, and I'm really keen to understand a little bit more detail what it is you do, how you got to doing what it is that you do, and what we're gonna be talking about today.

Thanks, Aoife. And thanks so much for having me. Yeah. So if I've been a lawyer now for 18 years. I've worked in mostly in financial services world. I've also been levering soft skills training and talks and workshops for about 15 years, of my professional life. So in in in various areas, negotiation, communication, emotional intelligence, personality types. And I suppose in in around 2019, if I made the decision, I suppose based on on, you know, what's going to make me most fulfilled in life, where where do I go next? I decided to get away from full time legal practice and go into consultancy on a part time basis, which would allow me then to focus a little bit more on my people training.

During that move, I wrote a book on personality types and emotional intelligence called Stop Being Yourself, as you mentioned. And I suppose that's where I'm at. I'm splitting my time between both. And I have to say, I'm enjoying the dynamic. And 1 of the things if I was but with moves, you're always nervous. Safa, you know, there's always, will this work? What am I doing? Am I leaving my legal practice behind? But sort of what has happened is is they both have complemented each other. I think people kinda like my background in terms of, you know, my main market is is sort of financial services, professional services firms, and professional representative bodies. So there was no there was a happy accident if I didn't necessarily plan it this way.

But then, kind of like that I have this professional background and I'm still in practice and I'm still exposed to that world. So they work very well in tandem together. And if I'm totally honest, what I loved pursue the training exclusively, I would. But I don't know what that future looks like, Gedita. And because people are always saying to me, Euron, it's fantastic that you you you know what people are going through, etcetera. So I don't know. I'm just gonna have to let it play out. But I'm enjoying it at the moment.

Brilliant. Brilliant. And I can totally relate to that whole thing of, leaving what people refer to as a permanent pensionable. I've done that several times in my life, and people don't get it. They're like, what do you mean? You're you're you're leaving this amazing career that you have to do something you know? Yeah. I think of the there's a lot of people out there who they just don't get it, but I like this idea that you're on this journey of doing something that is is gonna bring you a lot more fulfillment in work. Maybe coming back to the book and the personality profiling, maybe an intro to and this is what I liked about the book actually is showing and you explained it in a way that I haven't heard it explained before. So emotional intelligence and our personality and the subconscious together and how those work together to reflect how we show up basically on a day to day basis in our interactions.

And this is all relationship based as opposed to how you know, you're starting how I'm interacting with myself. It's how I'm showing up in the world Sure. With other people when you when you see other people because, you know, how many days are there where you don't show up and meet another person?

No. Absolutely. Yeah. No. Absolutely. And so, Eva, I suppose lots of this all comes from reading, Nife. You know, like, we're always standing on the shoulders of giants, as you know. We're taking sort of little bits of information from different areas and different things that we read.

And definitely, I became really interested in how the subconscious mind affects what we do. So on a very regular and daily basis, I think there's a statistic out there, and you'll be familiar with this, that 95% of our daily actions come from the subconscious, I. E. We're not conscious of them. We're just doing them on autopilot. Yeah. So I was wondering, okay, you know, I was exposed to a lot of personality stuff. I was doing it in the course of my work.

But I think I hadn't really heard it so from that perspective of, you know, that this is all coming from your subconscious. So I suppose you say and in my introduction to MIVEC, I sort of set the tone of that. And look, very crudely, Phil, and this isn't something that, you know, the listeners or yourself won't have heard before. But, you know, we form our personality probably mostly in the 1st 7 years of life. So we have these experiences. And it's learning how to navigate life. It's learning, you know, the talk about downloading these programs to help us you know, these computer programs to help

us Yeah. Yeah. The operating system.

Exactly. Exactly. So we have these experiences life, and then we pop them into a memory bank. And every time we encounter something similar to that, the subconscious mind fires these programs back out. And we wheel out the same sort of things that we've learned. And they come out in our behaviors that we lodge these beliefs. And then the beliefs drive our emotional patterns on our behaviors. It's terrifying and it's very liberating at the same time, Efra.

Do you know it's, Am I really that predictable? Am I really you know, I thought I was a special kind of an individual. But really, when you get into it, we know that there's a very set amount of motivations for the behaviors that we exhibit on a very daily basis. So I think when you accept that and you think that you're not special and that you haven't it's just liberating. If you think, Okay. I can get on with this journey of self awareness. I can get on with this journey of understanding others and having real empathy for them, you know, not a box ticking exercise. And it's liberating having that proper empathy for people. You know, you're looking at people as and this sounds a little bit cold or callous, but as programmed beings, you know, who are doing their best to navigate life and world.

And I think I think the tone of my book brings that out, Aoife, that, you know, we're there's no bad people. We're just victims of circumstances ultimately.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's a couple of things that I'm thinking as you're talking there, Ronan. 1 of them is this sense of I feel justified for the feelings that I have and for the behavior. And maybe it other thing other thing that I was thinking was this idea of, well, everyone else is programmed as well, and we're all just kind of reacting to each other, essentially. And and that theme has come up on the podcast several times that we're all basically just triggering each other for whatever wounds that we have from the past and that they're all embedded from a from a very young age. I'm intrigued to understand a little bit more about the the you were saying there's only a handful of things that that are at the the root cause of all of these types of behaviors.

Is that linked with the per the different personality profiles?

Yeah. Most definitely. So, like, for example, I call them motivations. And very simple, that's a very fancy way of saying why do we behave as we do.

Yeah.

You know, what's the reason for it? And every well, not every, but 9 personality types under the enneagram, each have their respective motivation. And if you could go back even further, what psychologists will call it defence mechanisms, you know, TCOE, these things that we developed in our childhood because we didn't have the emotional development to process it or feel it. It was overbearing. We didn't have this brain chemistry or the emotional wherewithal to process it and say, Okay. You know, that's okay. I'm hurt by this. I feel it. It doesn't feel pleasant.

When we're young, we build this psychological structure to defend ourselves. And that's really what motivates our behaviors. And then, crazily, we carry this into our adult lives and we carry it into our corporate life, Afa. You know, I know that's your sort of the workplace, your specialty. And, you know, it's like children really running around crashing into each other. And look, if I don't say that in a condescending way, I'm not immune to to it. I'm still triggered by certain types. Yeah.

We're all human.

Yeah. Absolutely. I bring it home at night. I'm upset by it. You know, I'm angry. I'm I feel worthless at times because of it. I feel, you know, I feel very vulnerable at times because of it. But that's the thing.

It's just the cycle. We're all just trying to improve that. But, if I can give you a couple of examples, if that would suit you. And

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So, like, how they show up. And if I suppose I'd like to select a couple of the types. And again, this is not a judgment as to them. It's just, unfortunately, the way the corporate world and the and the workplace has has evolved.

Well, this is it. I'm I'm curious about that because I know before this conversation, you were saying we're not gonna go into all of the different 9 types. There is just no time to be able to do that. And definitely check out Ronan's book if you want to explore any of these concepts further. But I'm looking at the types, and I'm thinking I'm curious to know which ones you're gonna bring up because we haven't talked about which ones we're gonna talk about. And I have an idea of which ones are gonna come up, and I think people who are listening are really gonna relate to whatever comes up because they're probably so typical of the either ourselves, and we we can recognize ourselves in it, or we can recognize other people in in what comes up. And, again, it's not a judgment. It's just this is this is how it is and this is what we learned before the age of 7.

This is how we learn to to cope in the world, essentially.

Absolutely. And so if we just preface all of this by saying if anyone's saying he's on his high horse, I exhibit a lot of the traits of 2 of these characters. So I'm putting my hand up here, Ef, and saying, Look, I'm you know, if you're thinking, No, that's me. And I'm a bit hurt that he's bringing these up. I'm this person as well. So I mean, I go into that when we're chatting about these. But I wanna talk about the perfectionist, Aoife, number 1. Mhmm.

And I see you see you laughing. So I think you're predicting all of this. The performer who is the success orientated individual, very goal orientated performance machine. And lastly, the boss. So the boss is, your typical CEO wafer. That's the individual who very, very action orientated, can be lacking an empathy at times.

Okay.

And doesn't have an off switch. But I suppose to to firstly give you an overview if so the, you know, the sort of hallmark indicators of who these types might be and what they might be. So, perfectionist. And perfectionist is 1 that we see in the media all the time, Mifin, you know. And 1 of the things is people are there's a broad spectrum of personality types that people attribute to a perfectionist. And actually, I wrote an article on this on LinkedIn. I have a number of articles there on these topics. And look, it's fantastic that people are investigating this stuff and and, you know, want to understand others.

But I think at times, there's a misconception about stuff that mix up motivations, you know, and it's the same for introverts. I even think and even I know you're an expert in this impostor syndrome, for example. There's always different motivations for why we might be failing imposter syndrome, for example. But anyway sorry. Just to get back to the

I was thinking the same because as I was reading about The imposter syndrome. And we're not gonna go down that road today, but maybe separately I can do an exploration of that that link and that motivation of perfectionism and how it relates to imposter syndrome. In fact, with a lot of the the different personality types, I could see how it relates to imposter syndrome actually. So yeah. As an aside, let's get back

to the That's very interesting, but thank you. Yeah. Absolutely. So firstly, the perfectionist. So they are, as great synthesizer of information. Their sorry. Their focus of attention on the world is they want to be right. They're always focusing on the right way to do things.

They are very orderly in how they do things. They like doing things a certain way. They say about, other perfectionists that they like principles, not people. And How they exhibit and how they show up and how you'd recognize them, generally speaking, they are quite thin and lean people. When they are getting a little bit tense or they're a little bit serious, you can see their jaw tightening quite a bit. They talk about shoulds. You should be doing this. They're advising you constantly.

That's their talk style. They'll use their index finger to direct you what you should be doing. You know, they dress quite appropriately as well. They're quite conservative in how they dress, and they're set properly. They'll always sit quite straight and they're quite, stiff of themselves actually. Now, to think about why they present like that, if they're always looking for the right way to do things. They They have quite a lot of unresolved anger perfectionists. And why is that? Because they suppress anger.

Remember, it's not the right way to behave. And so it radiates art intention. So, for example, and if let's put that into a leadership perspective. You have a perfectionist who is brilliant at their job. They are really precise about how they go about things, really orderly, really committed, and really principled ethical people. Let me just say that as well. But you have a junior who is very keen to please, and then you have the skylined perfectionist looking at them, judging them, criticizing them. Because remember, in their head, their unconscious focus is, I'm aiming to do the right thing.

I want it to be right. I will need to be right. You know, this is this is this is where their where their head goes. And they have this poor junior in front of them who's looking for a little bit of praise. And perfectionists never praise people. They never say that was a brilliant job because remember, they haven't found the right way. They're always at, you know, perfectionism. They're always aiming for that.

They can find the mistakes in anything.

Absolutely. Absolutely. They're always reforming. You know, people call them reforming junkies. They just love improving stuff, you know. It's not so let me go on to the performer and I'll do a little asterisk at this because I may or may not share lots of the performer characteristics. So, they focus their attention on success and maintaining a successful image. They are very hardworking.

They are goal orientated. They are positive motivators of people. They have this emotional intelligence as to what people need to hear to be able to motivate them. They call them the chameleons of of the enneagram. They are those people that can change, you know, a chameleon changes colour depending on the environment and depend what is needed. They're able really quickly to change. In terms of spotting a perfectionist, weird thing get when you're speaking to a performer and they are trying to work out what you need to hear, their eyes will just be modifying all the time, just click, click, click from side to side. And it's just a it's a very striking bit of body language.

It's just a real common telltale of they very often have this kind of block head. And that sounds very, you know, not very desirable, but and symmetrical features that Yeah. You know, just their the look that they have. They also know how to dress if depending on what is required. You know, so if it's depending on the look of an organization or a particular profession, they will have it down to a tee. They will be really fit in, and they will look nearly better than than than others. You know? They'll they're they're really into to what what the image should be. That does there's a confident pose as well.

And in terms of talk style, if they're they're very assured, very confident, and they'll always be kinda trying to woo you with with their with their with their achievements. You know, they're in a very subtle sort of semi boastful way. They will be delivering this kind of, as I say, woo trying to woo you with their achievements. So we're gonna move on then to the boss, Aoife. The boss is just to sort of give this a headline, they have focused their attention on being strong and in control. They are your typical male or female who is CEO, typically the leaders. I'd say there's more bosses as leaders in somewhere like America than anywhere else that they are, just your typical pickup personality that will be in that. They're action orientated.

They are very they have this physical aura about them, if so separate, the Sherlock's characteristics of the performer, but you feel Annette, when they're sitting beside you, it's a type b, the boss, you feel their energy. Even when they're quiet in a room, you feel their energy, you know. In terms of identifying features to have these probing eyes. So when they're talking when you're talking to a type, you feel like they're going through you, basically. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And But do you feel like you're the only person in the room or the only person in the world when they're looking at you? They just make you feel like yeah.

Absolutely. Yeah. No. That's a much more elegant way of saying it there.

But no. I think it's it's it's a nice way to describe it as well. This like it's almost boring through that you're like, woah. I know you're looking at me.

It is. No. Absolutely. And if you have this funny walkabout, then I know not all of the recordings of this will be visual as well, but picture, but they're sort of shoulders rock sides. I would call it a saunter. You know, it's this kind of, you know, try me type thing. You know, this

Okay. Like a swagger almost, is it?

Yes. Absolutely. A swagger. Cocaine is a swagger. And that's for male or females. You know, it doesn't matter. They have this poise and confidence. And, you know, if they're in a conflict scenario, it'll be like, you know, what's the best you have? You know, they are just totally at ease.

But 1 of the things that again, just to go back to the performer and the boss, a performer will be very good at motivating. They will be positive. They're really, really positive. The boss is more of a challenger.

Okay.

And if you stand up to a boss and if you have the wherewithal to look them in the eye and answer their questions directly And, you know, you're not intimidated by them. You'll be on their team then.

Yeah. Okay.

Whereas a performer is more put your arm around someone's shoulder and say, you know, they're interested in you being the best that you can possibly be.

Yeah. Yeah.

So they're kind of the I'm sorry. Just 1 thing of a talk style. If AAAA boss talks in declaratives, in absolute statements of truth.

You

know, so you might be listening to someone thinking, How could they be so confident about that? In everything they do, it just sounds like total and utter gospel

or not

the truth of you know, it's just how they communicate. Yeah, Absolutely.

Met people like that. And you believe everything they say even if they're not

right. Absolutely.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

No. You do. And it's I suppose it's part of their strength on the leadership journey. So, that kind of is an overview of how they present, kind of the strengths that they bring to it. And then I suppose if I've heard you on a number of podcasts talking about we need to leverage our strengths, you know, and that's I totally agree with it, Eva. I think we need to know our strengths. I know you mentioned spreadsheets the last day. It was 1 of the things I picked up on as an example.

You're really comfortable with spreadsheets and you're really good at it And you can you know, you're probably really fast and efficient with it and just enjoy the energy that it produces. Spreadsheets are a big part of my legal work as well if they stress me out.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

I feel anxious during them. You know, I can't wait to get this over. But they're very necessary part of my job, but just how different we all are. But to move over then, if, say, you're on your leadership journey or just, you know, navigating work as a typical employee, overreliance on your strengths, overreliance on, you know, these things often lead to neurotic behavior. They lead to, you know, the bullying, the harassment, the things that trigger people. And, you know, to use our few examples again, the perfectionist. So, they go from striving for perfection from, you know, looking at synthesizing information wonderfully well, making sure others come up to their high standards, then they're overly critical. They're impatient.

They can be very resentful of people when they're not up to their high standards and alienate their team because they focus on perfection and not people. And I think I mentioned at the start, it's it sounds when we're talking about this just in now it sounds like sort of very, like, touch. But when you are on someone's team that is leading like that, it's devastating. Because, say, you're new to a job, maybe your last job hasn't gone so well and I've been there, you know, you're feeling a bit insecure about that stuff. You wanna make a good impression. And you have this perfectionist looking at you who has a grimace. You know, a perfectionist always nearly has 1 eyebrow because they're trying to work out the right way to do things. You know, that's the unconscious process in their mind, you know.

And you're not helping. You're new. You don't have a clue what you're adopted in terms of the job as yet. You're trying to work things out. You want a little bit of feedback saying, you know, well done. That was fantastic. And it just doesn't come. And, again, it's not because they're bad people.

It's the way they're programmed if it's just, you know, potentially devastating. In terms of the motivation for that behavior, touched on it, they believe there's only 1 right way to do things, you know, which is a very, very it's a very difficult sort of cross to to verify, you know, to

To find that 1 right way. And you're always looking for that 1 right answer, the 1 way to do it. And yeah. No. That's totally relatable. And then I think from the book you were talking about being in an accountancy field, for example, as the like, well, there's 1 right way to do this. I'm either right or wrong. It's black or it's white.

Okay. Yeah. That makes total sense.

It does. And, Anita, you know more than anyone that you can't take that approach with people. People are so different. You know? People are not black and white. You know, we're not just rational beings. We're emotional beings. So, it doesn't really work. But exactly the accountancy is such a good example of just that, I won't just stay in this world.

They just

have to balance it. If they don't balance, then it's wrong. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

So, to go on then to the performer, and the performer is your success orientated individual that I spoke about, and they can become ultra competitive. So, for example, when their success image is threatened, they can become ultra competitive. They're very image conscious and they have this disregard for emotions. So, this relentless charge towards success just leads to a dehumanizing of their team. Ultimately the team that's working under them as a under their leadership. They're just a statistic.

Yeah. Their numbers, they might be a like, they're a robot. They're just there to do a job and that's it. Yeah.

Absolutely. Absolutely. So, when a 3 is locked in a project and they're striving for that successful completion or goal, excuse me, they shut off their own emotions. You know, and to a degree if it's a strange kind of a thing, it's what makes them so capable. Yeah. They're just they're able That's

how they get results.

Exactly. They cut off their emotions and they go for it. But what happens to that emotions that they push down, they're going to get the result in a few years, Aoife, you know, because they're workaholics. It's going to come out in some sort of physical manifestation eventually, you know, through heart conditions, through whatever it may be, you know, whatever sort of physical manifestation it is. You know, there's and the motivation for this behavior and always go back to these motivations because they're I think for me, they're really important in arresting whatever emotion you are triggered by these people. You think to yourself, Okay. I need to go back to why are they doing this? You know, what is the motivation for their behavior? Now, their success, of course, they're always striving for success. But why do they need to be successful? They need to be successful because they feel worthless without it.

So, if you're a type 3, and it's probably you know, this is 1 of the things that I had to discover along the way. When I found out that I exhibited lots of type 3 behaviors and I found out, okay, so when I'm feeling upset at work, generally speaking, it's because or anxious, it's because of an underlying emotion of worthlessness.

And I

was thinking to myself, worthless? But I'm, you know, in the relational world and I'm confident and, you know, happy to speak and it doesn't I don't feel but really, when my back is up against the wall and I'm disappointed and I haven't, you know, presented as doing something really successfully, worthless, this is what I'm feeling. It's an amazing realization even when you think, Okay. That's what it is. So I have to take this and move forward with it. And it's liberating. It's like I'm taking these things from my childhood. What is a typical childhood of a performer, Rifit? It's you were giving lots of praise for successful performance.

Yes.

Good boy. Good girl. That was fantastic. How were you in school today? That's a great award. Did you win that race? You know, this is the programming that this is that.

But there's something interesting in the language that you used there, Ronen, that I just want to highlight. Sure. And it's this idea of presenting as. So it's not just the success, it's the successful image that we are presenting to the world. And this image may be even in conflict with how we feel inside, because inside we don't feel like we've achieved the success that we want to achieve. But the important thing is that we're presenting the outward image of

nail on the head with a performer, it's they talk about them having a lack of authenticity. And that's why people don't like them in the workplace. They don't think they're real people. They are a projection of some form of image. And, you know, if I can relate to that, you know, when I look back at my own motivations for things, when I look at, for example, why I chose law, you know, and I find this sort of amusing very interesting.

Well, it's interesting because I didn't know this about you, Ronan, and that's coming through in the book because a lot of the examples I think are related to that and they're so relatable because of people's perception of law and the legal profession, I think.

Oh, absolutely. So I suppose I think to myself and this is when I when I first started on the Enneagram journey myself, I was thinking, why did I pick law then? What did I think at 16 or 17 I would be good at reviewing documents? I would be good in court? Of course not. I had an uncle who was a barrister Rifa He had a lot of respect. People you know, that's the best society is. You know, the higher your, sort of, your badge or your thing, people respect you more. And I just wanted that. And that's the truth. And that's the nature of threes.

They want this successful image. They want the high societal position. You know, no greater analysis than that. And it's frightening, you know, that these unconscious motivations set us on this lifelong journey of, you know, who's to say whether it's going to be enjoyable or not. So, then, moving on to the boss. The boss, just to say it, can I suppose there's 2 elements to narcissism? There is the control and the sort of very aggressive side to narcissism. And then, there's the other side, which is the sort of carefree, fun, outgoing, but hate commitment, and have no disregard for others' feelings to a degree. I think the type 8 is 1 of the people that are the control focused.

So, they can become very impatient when they're over focusing on their on their typical, strengths, and have this total inability to show vulnerability. Why do they have this inability to show vulnerability? Because it's too painful. It's again, it goes back to their childhood, which I'll touch on. But ultimately, tight nates create this very intimidating, underperforming workplace for people when they're in a bad place, when they overfocus on their strengths, and when they never take a foot off the gas, when they never have proper empathy for people, when they step over people, you know, to achieve their own gains. And just to draw a little comparison, Aoife, between the boss and the performer in terms of their emotional presentation, the performer will switch off their emotions and they'll be robotic. Or else, they will put their arm around you and they'll know how to charm you into reaching that goal. The boss is different. They're very, very comfortable with anger.

Much of what they say will be presented with anger. They go from naught to 60 in 5 seconds, from, you know, just sitting normally to very, very in your face. And they're a challenger. Another name for the boss is a challenger. They will constantly challenge you. And I suppose it goes without saying for the sort of destructive effect that may have on people in the workplace. You know, we're all at different levels of security, and particularly when this person is your boss. And a very common thing when I'm taking these, the training, people would say, Is that the person that is lovely and charming to their senior bosses? But then when it comes to us, they will scream and shout at us.

And, yes, that is that person. Generally speaking, they know they're very strategic. They can see the big picture. But when it comes to the people below them, you have to walk, walk, their walk. Talking about how they form this sort of desire and need to be constantly in control, generally speaking, they have a childhood of being physically dominated by a physically stronger individual. And what happens, they show their vulnerability in their childhood, Aoife. And what happens when they show their vulnerability? They're mocked for crying. They're mocked for you know, I think of actually just Ronaldo crying recently and the media, sort of this attack, you know, oh, how pathetic is that? You know?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

We've we've come a long way, but not really a long way. If, like, you know, for whatever reason, Ronaldo was crying. He's upset. But, so they have this thing where when it comes to life, when it comes to work, they need to be in control because if they're not in control, there's a chance that they'll feel that vulnerability again, that they'll that, you know, they'll show that people will will will will not be honest and truthful and and and upfront with them. So it's better just to be in complete control and micromanage people and and and, you know, go rough shot over people.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. The micromanager is coming out here. Oh, I definitely want to explore a lot of those different, I suppose this as a tool in a lot more detail. Obviously, there's not a huge amount of time to do that today.

Sure.

But it's interesting because I can relate to, to 2 of the types actually similar to what you had mentioned yourself. And I'd be curious to know from what you know about me, maybe the limited information or what you've heard on a podcast or seen on social media, I'll be curious if you have any thoughts about what type I am from from what you've seen.

Sure. And if I just to preface this by saying, like, unless people ask me, I never offer this. Yeah. Yeah. It's a very personal journey. I'm not so much into psychometric tests, I have to say. I think it's a it's a you mentioned this in quite a few of your podcasts, Aoife. This is a lifelong journey

of

Sabbath School Break. You know, there's lots of different layers. And for someone to tell you within 10 minutes who you are, it doesn't it doesn't mean very much.

Label and you have that label for life then. Yeah.

You can feel like that. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And Yeah. So from what you've described, and now considering there's also wings Yeah. For all of our types. So, you know, it's a bit like other types where, you know, you you either side, if you're a number on the on the on an endogram wheel, you have a certain number that you're gonna exhibit those behaviors as well.

Yeah. But the fact that you have a very analytical mind, your, the spreadsheets, etcetera, and that you're very organized, etcetera. I have in mind a type 1 who is the perfectionist or a type 6 who is the devil's advocate.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting.

They have these amazing analytical minds that, are able to review things. They're they have this relentless pursuit for satisfying themselves before they move on. And if I don't you're 1 of those people, but they're the people in your work, Aoife, who ask loads of questions about things and they're comfortable asking the questions when someone like me can be impatient and is goal orientated. I need people like that on my side because they stop me from making, you know, catastrophic mistakes. They save me from doing silly things. But they also can suffer from sort of analysis paralysis. They over fixate on the detail and they're always looking at certainty. What's their background, the type 6? Type 6 thinks it's a fairly dangerous world we're living in.

They're skeptical about people. They have a 6th sense about people that we fit. They have this sort of background history of maybe being in an uncertain family unit. So, they were always trying to predict people's behaviors. And that translates into their adult life, but they're skeptical, and they're doubtful. And they're actually always searching for certainty in their life but they're scanning their environment for dangers very often.

Yeah. That's so interesting because so I I took an online and it was paid as well. So you kind of when you pay for this stuff, you sort of expect that it's gonna be right. And the result I got was a very strong 3 but also with a 1. So I'm not surprised about the 1 because when I read your book, I was like, hello. I can totally relate to this 1. Like, that is me right there. And when I read the 3, I was like,

yeah, I have a little bit of

that, but I don't have all of the kind of characteristics. The 6, I don't know an awful lot about. So I feel like I should kinda read into that. I think for me, I definitely relate to the the perfectionist tendencies. I think from the 3, it's the projected image of success and the goal orientation, and I want to achieve, and I'm driven to achieve at all costs sometimes. But like we're saying, it's a journey. And so I can I can sort of see how and I don't know? Does your your enneagram type change over time or what the story is, or is it all a journey that this is your foundation and your core motivation? But once you start to understand a little bit about yourself, you can bring in some more of the the strength of the other types.

You know, Eve, that's a and that's a really important question. You know, does it and that comes up all the time. People say, I change. I'm different in work. I'm different at home. And this is what the enneagram says. The enneagram says that our core personality never changes. Now, do we have different elements of other personality types? Of course, we do.

Our current, for example. You know, so what's my example of that? I am my core is a type 8.

Yeah.

And I have the 3 from my parents.

Yeah.

You know, so and it took a while to work that out. I thought my I thought my core was a 3 initially. And even even the teacher that I did it with, was a Vedanta monk, very learned and educated guy. He thought I was a 3. Yeah. Working through it ultimately, if I've discovered that I'm a I'm a I'm a certain subtype of an 8 and then the things are a sort of add on. Other things that might throw you off track are the wings, of course. So we have different elements, from them.

And then there's also with under the anagram, not to get too complicated, we go to a certain number in stress, and we go to a certain number in growth.

Yes. Okay.

So it's just interesting. 1 of the things about a 3, Aoife, is and this is maybe resonates with you, they go to 6 in growth.

Okay. Yeah.

Yeah. You know, they learn to trust themselves that they have that inner radar. They no longer need to project an image based on what is successful in a particular field. They trust themselves. And, you know, and they're confident to walk on their own path. So, look, is it in 1 way a very simple, formula for sort of growth? In another way, it's inordinately complicated. Yes. You know, there's a lifetime of learning in it.

This is it. And, like, that's kind of what's coming through is it's not a cut and dried. You take a quiz and there you have all the answers. And maybe that's the kind of person I am that I I want to have the an there's 1 right way, Ronan. Did you know there's 1 right way? There's 1 right answer to this. This is the perfectionist coming out. Sure. But I think it is.

It's about understanding ourselves. Really, at the core of it, it's not about labeling yourself. It's about understanding yourself being on this journey. What are maybe some of the things that are you are blind to? What are you motivated by based on essentially, fundamentally based on your childhood pre 7 years old. You know, what is it that you're actually here to try and achieve or cover up or present to the world or whatever it might be. I'm also really interested in understanding the relationship on a team. So I'm kind of thinking if there are these 9 different types, then and we have a team of, say, 4 or 5 people, like, you're not gonna have a a team of 9 people to represent every single 1 of those types. But maybe can we talk about some of the conflicts that arise at work? You have mentioned some of them already.

Like, if there's someone who is goal oriented goal orientated and trying to get stuff done, which is the the number 3, and then they encounter a number 6. And the number 6 is asking a lot of devil's advocate questions saying, but what about this scenario? What about this scenario? In some ways, it's good, but then the overuse of the strengths, and I've talked about this before, is when when your strengths become a weakness essentially because you use it too much. But but having this awareness of it's not all drive, drive, drive, and it's not all analysis paralysis, paralysis, but finding the balance. But any other sort of conflicts that might arise based on the different personality types that people might recognize in themselves or or

others? Yeah. It's an interesting 1. If you want to just before I get into giving specific examples, 1 of the things I do with team dynamics and type performing teams, you have all these fancy names for effectively, you know, we have problems with our teams. How do we how do we help? So I introduced the Enneagram to it. If and 1 of the things that I do is, right, we're gonna do a mock meeting here exactly as you would do in work, and we're gonna take on different roles. So the typical type 1 perfectionist who is always advising on the processes, you know, let's stick to this process, what we should do. This is the best way to do it. You know, and it gets very tense about, you know, when people veer from that.

They take on a more sort of questioning role of finding out you know, whether people are happy about things. They have to ask questions. They have to

Oh, interesting. Getting buy in from others, getting input. Absolutely. Yeah. Okay.

Lower, you know, why people are doing things as opposed to immediately jumping into advising.

Yeah. This is how we should do it. This is the right way to do it. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Absolutely. The type 2 then is the giver and they're the person that is always concerned about other people. They're happiest when they are helping others and assisting others. And they have to flip roles into someone that is a little bit more selfish and just to advise a bit like the type 1. This is what we need to do. This is the process that we need to follow. The type 3, of course, the performer, and I'll not go through all of them to give a few examples of kind of the goals that shift. The type 3 is, of course, this person who's dying to get to the goals and, you know, they keep everyone on track and they're like, you know, let's focus on what we're doing.

They have to go off pace a little bit. They have to be a little bit more creative. They have to take a breather occasionally. They don't need to almost be in control and dictating the tempo of things. And they have to come up with creative solutions for stuff. They have to they have to allow themselves that time not to be too focused on the end line all of the time. So it's a very interesting exercise, and I would I would invite anyone like yourself, people who is a trainer, and and and anyone that's watching that's in this, you know, in management or whatever to try it. You know, even for a meeting just to say, Look, let's swap roles here occasionally.

And, you know, because there are you notice patterns even how people do things.

Yeah.

But in terms of clashing, it's a funny 1 because, the for example, the perfectionist despises people that doesn't stay on what was agreed. So if there's a process if there's a pro process for doing something Yeah.

And then we'll every time you mentioned the perfectionist, I'm like, oh, okay. Yeah. That's me.

Anita, by the way, just to to put my hands up, my mother I have perfectionism from my mother's side, I think. Yeah. Yeah. I probably haven't really discussed that with her, but but I definitely do. You know, I can feel the resentment building in me when I feel that someone isn't doing something the way that it should be or agreed or, you know, this burning, nasty feeling that we get. But a type 7 is the optimist. And they hate being tied down to stuff. They love being creative.

They're storytellers. They're fun. They're charismatic. But they have this habit of not following through on things because they find it boring. They hit the end of projects. They hit processes. They hit being limited in any way. They love to keep all of their options open.

So a 7 and a 1 can infuriate each other actually. And it's reciprocated both ways because a 1 will constantly be saying, we agreed in week 1 to do it this way.

Why are

you going off on another relevant tangent? The 7th is thinking, my god. This person is so boring and frustrating and, you know, they're really dampening my creativity and my ability to be a fast, agile thinker, you know. There's this clash. The type 2 then, as I said, is the giver. And type 2 and nines can have a funny sort of or sorry, type 2 and eights have a funny relationship. It's or it's and I'm an it myself. If it's are very self referencing. They're single-minded.

They're selfish. They're very driven on what they want to do. You know, it's 1 of the big learnings for me. I've had to do lots of stuff around, you know, taking a step back and thinking to myself, Okay. You know, you need to consider other people. You know, it's the world we live in. It's not a very pleasant thing to admit, but it's just a part of me. And 2's are all about everyone else.

2's love that everyone's looked after, that everyone's voice is heard, that everyone feels comfortable in the group and that there's a great team environment. Eats don't care about that. They are just, you know, I'm going to big strategic thinker here and I'm just going to plow ahead. Yeah. There's a clash between them. And the type twos are very people orientated people, but they can be vociferous when they need to be.

Yeah.

You know, they can get pretty antsy when when the people aren't there.

People aren't being looked after or whatever.

Absolutely. And, Aoife, you may if you if you're considering 1, you may have a large amount of 2 in you.

Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

The the performer, you know, they can actually clash quite a bit with fours. Fours are the individualist. They're a very unique individual. They They have an identity as being different from everyone. Very emotionally sensitive.

Like a rebel almost.

Yeah, absolutely. They can be very rebellious. They are creative people. So, they like some sort of creative thing in their work, some sort of artistic bent to everything they do. What they're mad about authenticity, Aoife. And they have this radar for people when someone is presenting something that doesn't quite tally exactly like a type 3. So the 3 is this projected image of themselves. The 4 is this very, you know, be real with me.

You know, be straight with me. You know, that sort of a I think and they can clash quite a lot because it's a it's a total total, 2 different total styles.

So Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. There's there's plenty of plenty of opportunity for conflict.

So that's how conflict happens from a personality perspective. But then is it really just about raising awareness of this is why I am the way I am and having an understanding of people's different personality styles in order to understand them and where they're coming from in order to resolve the conflict.

It is it's very it's it's and I have to agree with that. It's very education is so powerful. You know, when I'm in with working with groups, 1 of the things that gives me such a buzz is seeing the relief and the you get lots of giggles during it because they're like, ah, that's what that lady is doing. That's what that man is doing. You know it. It's like, I now understand that. And it's the big thing about not taking this stuff personally then. People can take a breath and go, oh, okay.

They're just a programmed individual doing these you know. But, yeah, it's the educational part of it is very powerful. And I suppose when you're dealing with them, Ifa, you know what their wounds are. With a perfectionist, don't tell them they're wrong. You know, like, 1 of the things I find in negotiations, especially in legal negotiations, there's lots of perfectionists in law. Yeah. Which makes sense. Yeah.

It does. Doesn't it the way you review documents that are very precise? People start negotiation with saying, You are completely wrong about that. And it's like taking a dagger and putting it into a perfectionist's heart.

So,

when we know what their wounds are, when we know what their special thing, their motivations for their behaviour, we learn not to implicate or to damage their self image. You know, we become a little bit more skillful with the language we use with people. And I'm not talking about manipulation to get their best ends. I just mean you're careful with what you say to people.

You're talking to their motivators as opposed to going against their motivator by saying to a perfectionist, you know, that's totally wrong or you're wrong or you got that wrong or it's not the right way to do it or whatever. It's like, ah,

it's failed. Exactly. Exactly. And I know you had a really interesting conversation with the lady on the DISC Personality podcast. You know, I find that, of course, very interesting for my own and we were speaking about don't speak to people or treat people as they want to be treated, not as you want to be treated. You know, it's the exact same premise. It's knowing, you know, how to navigate people, how to skillfully navigate. I always use that term skillfully navigate people.

It's not manipulation. It's actually dealing with people to get the best out of them. So, yeah, it's an important 1.

There's some there's 1 last question I want to ask before we wrap things up and it's something else I picked up from something that you said and this is the idea of being ashamed of the type that you you are. So if you are labeled as a perfectionist, for example, we'll use me as an example, if you're labeled as a perfectionist and there's all of these negative attributes that are associated with that and you feel a sense of shame because of your childhood, because of whatever it might be, how do we address those kinds of issues that like, if I feel ashamed of the type that I am? And I suppose given the the idea that there's no 1 right personality, that's that it pains me to say that, by the way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's no 1 right personality, and they all have their specific attributes and things like that. But what if someone finds out they're like they take a they're listening today and they identify with 1 or they they take an online test or whatever it might be, or they're in a classroom with you, and they're like, I don't want to be that type. I don't see myself that way or whatever it might be.

Any any thoughts on how to address those types of issues?

And I I think that's a really, really good question. I've I've been through this, you know, the the the shame. You put it you put it so well. I don't think there's any easy answer for it, David. It's a necessary part of growth. Yeah. You know, growth if you're not feeling slightly uncomfortable on your growth journey, there's something wrong.

That's a good point. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're not growing.

No, exactly. You have to process it. And 1 of the things, Aoife, that at times I find a little bit difficult about my work is I present the warts and all. Personally, even most of the other personality frameworks are nicely polished and presented to corporate life. You can say, Oh, that's me. That's interesting. I'm delighted with all my

I'm so happy.

Yeah, exactly. You know, I'm a high functioning member of this sort of team. And for me, it's just a matter of getting through it and process it and doing all the things that you do to live a balanced life, if you have help. You know, your meditation, I think for me, volunteering was helpful to give me a different perspective on things because I suppose the shame is attributed to that's not the type of attributes that you need in corporate life or in a workplace.

Yeah.

It's very much tied to that. And I think for me, I needed to get my head away from my whole life and identity is work. And I think when you divorce yourself a little bit from that, it begins you begin to sort of your belief that you need to be a certain way softens, I think. And I think very important for me was really learning the motivations and where they came from. So, I have this the need to be in control or else because I want to avoid feeling vulnerable. And where did I get that from in my childhood? I think those things loosen the grip on your beliefs then. And you're like, Okay. I can start to work through this.

It feels pretty, excuse my French, a bit crappy. It feels uncomfortable, Aoife. I'm not feeling good here. But it's a part of it. I would love to be able to say, here's the solution for you Yeah. Yeah. When you're working through this. Yeah.

But it's the nature of growth, Yvonne. You know this. It's not easy.

So it's if I'm reading between the lines here, it's small steps and it's like so if I'm thinking about the a type in particular and the vulnerability piece and you showed vulnerability when you were younger and you were mocked and bullied and whatever that might be, whatever that looks like. And then, it's about showing a small level of vulnerability maybe to 1 person and then to a larger group when you have some success doing that, and then it kind of expands and expands and and you become more comfortable with being vulnerable in different situations.

Absolutely. Yeah. No. That's a really good way of putting it if I hadn't I hadn't formulated it that way. Yes. Most definitely.

That's the synopsis, perfectionist that made me coming out right now. I can, yeah, I can that's yeah. That's something I can do quite easily. I don't know how, but yeah. Anyway, Ronan, I've absolutely loved this conversation. We could probably talk all day about the 9 different types and the interactions and all of that kind of thing. But I would love to know, what does being happier at work mean to you?

Yeah. I think that's pretty simple. It's probably at the risk of repeating something. It's not taking people personally. You know, being a type A, there's a funny mix. There's a large gaping vulnerability underneath my tough action orientated shell. So when people aren't as you want them to be, you know, you can be sensitive to it. And so what the Enneagram has brought for me and all of my writing the book and teaching it, it's all my own journey of practice, I think.

It's not taking people personally. So, you can go in. People may be acting in a disagreeable manner, but you're able to stand back and have a little bit of distance and say, Okay. They're just acting on autopilot here. I don't have to take it personally. I'll give you that little bit of distance if that you're not bringing this stuff home with you.

Yeah. And we we won't obviously get into detail on this now, but I have had a conversation about self awareness. And from what you're saying, it's it's when when we uncover this awareness about ourselves, then we can start to grow. So until we have that awareness, we're still operating in that autopilot mode, subconscious decisions, and from from something from a very young age when we have 1 of these 9 motivators embedded into our ways of showing up in the world.

No. Absolutely. And I think I I think I watched that that podcast about a world that's talking about with a lady. Her name escapes me.

Doctor. Nia Thomas.

Yeah. And she had this lovely sort of toolkit of observing, I can't remember exactly the 3 steps you mentioned but I remember it's like, yeah, that resonates.

There is the 3 levels. Yeah. You're understanding and then, reflecting and then modifying your behavior, essentially. Yeah.

Absolutely. And and I think that's it it it really sums it up perfectly. You educate yourself based on your personality type. So what are the emotional patterns? What are my typical behaviors? And then you go into this observing stage where you're observing yourself. And, eventually, if you catch yourself in the act and that subconscious element comes into your conscious awareness and it's like, I'm free from that. You know? It's great.

Yeah. I can see myself doing that now.

I can get to choose now. You know, it's on that perm catching yourself in the eye comes from 1 of the most famous enneagram authors, and it's a lovely simple way of putting it.

Yeah. Really like that. Really like that. So if people want to connect with you, Ronan, if they want to find out more about what you do, the enneagram, your book, what's the best place that they can do that?

That? Yeah. My email address and the website, www.stopbeingyourself.ie. And then my email address is info at stopbeingyourself.ie.

Brilliant. Love that. And that's also the name of the book, Stop Being Yourself. And I love that because it's it's quite arresting, isn't it? You're like, what? I thought I was supposed to be myself, but now you're telling me to stop being myself? Okay.

Absolutely. That is it's it can be a controversial 1 if that

Yes. Absolutely. But thank you so much. I really, really enjoyed the conversation today. And, thank you so much for your time and sharing your insights and your wisdom.

I appreciate the conversation, Eva. Thanks very much.