Terry Cook is joined by Terry Lefteri to explore the difference between teaching for the driving test and preparing learners for real-life driving.

Drawing on years of experience and a background in coaching, Lefteri shares how his journey from instruction to coaching reshaped the way he works with learners. The discussion covers why focusing too much on the test can create pressure, how instructors can positively influence learners long after the test, and practical ways to bring coaching into everyday lessons.

Together, the two Terrys reflect on honesty, professional development, and how the language we use shapes outcomes. This episode challenges instructors to think beyond pass rates and towards creating safe, confident drivers for life.

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Well, before this episode, I text a good friend of yours and mine and your business partner, Stuart Lockery, and I asked him if he had a specific question for you, Terry, and that question was directly from Stuart.

On a scale of 0 to 10, how handsome is Stuart Lockery?

So what's your answer to this?

How handsome is Stuart?

He's such a get in me.

How the hell we bribed them to give them the chairmanship of the njc, I never know.

Well, look, it's got to be above a zero, hasn't it?

Because NJC would never an ugly chairman.

You know, I'm not coming in.

The question for you, not for me.

And I, we do have a business together.

So I need to be kind of nice to him.

But I've also got to be honest, you know, I'm going to do the ultimate number that people always give when they're scaling 0 to 10.

He's a 7.

Is a Scottish answer or is at least an 8.

But thank you for answering that question.

Scottish answer.

The Instructor Podcast with Terry Cook Talking with leaders, innovators, experts and game changers about what drives them.

Welcome to the Instructor Podcast.

This is a show that helps you become an even more awesome driving instructor and run a better driving school.

As always, I am your Jolly Northern host, Terry Cook.

I'm delighted to be here.

Even more delighted that you have chosen to listen because today we are joined by Terry Leftery and we are talking about the driving test and how to prepare students for the driving test by specifically not talking about the driving test.

But before we get stuck into this episode, I want to point you in the direction of the instructor podcast premium because if you enjoy these episodes, you will love it over there where we cover what I consider to be the three pillars of being a driving instructor, where we look at health, we look at business, and we look at the in car stuff we do with our learners.

So whilst I wouldn't suggest that you ditch your regular Costa coffee for the cost of a couple of those coffees, you can get access to everything over there to help you become an even more awesome driving instructor.

So head to the description for this episode and there'll be a nice link there for you to go and sign up.

But for now, let's get stuck into the show.

So today I'm delighted to be joined by Terry Left.

Terry, how are we doing, Terry?

Oh my God, you got my name wrong straight away.

Oh, have I got your name wrong?

What have I said?

You did it, Kev Field.

You did Kev Field.

Saying oh, Terry left Terry.

Reminds me of being at school.

Terry left Terry in the toilet.

Terry left Terry.

Then change you.

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

So if you don't we pronounce it leftory, then he can't make any jokes about that, you see.

But Kev Field has a massive problem saying my name.

Is that the correct way to pronounce it?

Leftory?

Yeah, it's for.

Yeah, let's say it is.

Where have I heard Stuart Lockery.

Stuart.

I'm blaming Stuart for that because he, he, he.

I'm sure he pronounced it to me.

Left Terry.

So I'm blaming Stuart.

He does it on purpose.

He does it on purpose.

So today I'm delighted to be joined by Terry left Terry.

Hold on.

Left Terry.

Terry left Terry.

That was good.

Yeah, second one is good.

Second one was good.

Perfect.

And yes, you are welcome to follow me on every opportunity during this episode.

So welcome to the show.

That's how we like to start.

How come I can get right Mitali de Pakastra's name correct, not yours.

Who exactly?

Metalli de Picastre.

But not.

Hold on, I'm gonna try one more time.

Terry Leftery.

Perfect, we'll go with that.

Okay, cool.

So first question.

Terry.

And I'm just going to stick with Terry.

It's a good name.

Well done.

Tell me a little bit about you and about where you sit in this industry, because we've never really spoken much before, but I wanted to get you on to talk about a few specific topics.

But tell me a bit about you and about your place in this industry.

My place in the industry?

Wow, that's an interesting question.

If we talk about the coaching spectrum, instruction and coaching, I think that's probably the best way to explain where I sit.

I'm way, way over on the coaching side.

I've done the instruction, I've done the PST training, I've done all that and I've.

I've gone further and further and further along towards the coaching end of it.

And I'd like to think that I've made a tiny difference in terms of picking up coaching in this industry.

Does it still bother you that there's a debate to be had about should we be coaching or should we be instructing?

I think the word is frustration.

And there are various reasons for the misunderstanding of coaching in this industry.

Because I'm going to hazard a guess that 90% of the industry, and it includes non instructors, have a misunderstanding of what poaching is.

And it's extremely frustrating because it's not their fault.

It's the powers that be.

So yeah, it is frustrating.

When I read posts about coaching, I did this coaching and I'm reading it.

That's not coaching.

It's not their fault.

So the frustration is that the powers that be and how they try to introduce it.

One of the things that works in my favor is I'm still an active driving instructor.

I work with PDIs, work with ADIs as well, but I still teach learners.

And I'll never stop that because I enjoy it so much.

But one of the things that works in my favorite is I do get to the test centers and I do get to speak to driving instructors at test centers.

And there are some brilliant driving instructors that I get to speak and there are some other ones that have challenging viewpoints.

And I'm going to relay a story.

I told this recently.

I think it might be in our membership.

So I'm not repeating it too much, but I'm going to tell a story and I'm going to not use the expletive for this story.

And it was at the test center.

And this chat walks down to me and it says, my students go to effing fail today.

And I kind of just gave him a blank stare and he's like, no, it's definitely going to fail.

I've told him he's going to f in Phil.

He never checks his effing mirrors.

And his dad's a bus driver and his dad's told him to check his effing mirrors.

He never checked his effing mirrors.

And it was like this.

This ran.

That felt like it went on for the full length of the test.

But in reality it was probably about 30 seconds.

But it just kept saying how he tells him to check his mirrors or his effing mirrors and never checks them and he's definitely going to fail.

And he's told him he's going to fail.

So I'm like, I've calmed myself down a little bit because this is like trickling me up a little bit.

And I've just said, can I offer a piece of advice?

And he's like, yeah.

I says stop telling him to check his Mirrors, because that doesn't seem to be working.

And he went quiet for a minute, thinking it over, and he went, well, I don't know what to effing do, do I?

And turn around and walk off.

And I get the feeling there's a lot of people like that that have been either teaching for a while in an old style, old school mindset, old school way, if you like, and have suddenly been told, or they feel like they've been told they're doing it wrong the way you've done it for the last five, 10, 20 years.

Whatever is wrong, you now need to change.

And I get the thing, there's a lot of people that don't like that because it feels like a personal attack almost.

Is that something that you come across, do you think?

Absolutely.

I mean, it's human nature, isn't it?

We don't like change.

We don't like to even have suggestion that what we've thought is the right way might not be the best way anymore.

My pupils enjoy the lessons, so I'm doing a good job, you know, and that's great.

I mean, you know, if that's why someone is in the job to have a great pass rate, if people enjoy the lessons, then fine, that's why they're in the job.

But for me, that's, that's not why I'm in this job.

It's why I came into this job.

And if you'd have asked me 25 years ago and I said, well, I've got high pass where my pupils enjoy the lessons, I must be doing a good job.

But then I, you know, as I said, I started looking into the coaching and I read, I read in a game of tennis that was my first kind of, you know, introduction to it.

So I used to be a tennis coach as well, used to do the two jobs simultaneously.

And it was just, well, I have to read that book.

The Inner Game of Tennis and the Hobbit are the only books I've read twice.

And so, and it just had a profound effect on what I was, I was trying to do and I tried to implement because it was, it worked with tennis coaching.

I used the tools and the techniques and stuff and all the stuff I learned from the, in the game of tennis.

And Tennis coaching and it was making a difference to players.

So now I just thought by myself, let's try and do this with my driving lessons.

And I failed miserably.

You know, it didn't work.

And that's what I mean.

I still had in my head that we should be doing better.

There is a better way of doing this job because I could see in tennis coaching that this is making a difference.

These methods, these techniques are making a difference, you know, about self awareness and all that kind of stuff.

There must be a better way to teach people to drive because something that I've never understood are the embarrassing KSI stats for young drivers.

And it's still embarrassing.

It's still something we should be ashamed of as an industry.

And I know that's upset people, but so what?

And it's never changed.

It's always been about the same.

So there must be something that we can do better as an industry, not as individuals, that's going to change those stats.

So I, quite early on in my career as an adi, started to change my outlook.

And it's not about having a high pass rate.

It's not about your students enjoying lessons or obviously we have to.

Has to be an enjoyable learning environment.

But it's not about passing a test.

It's about can they get their friends and family home safely at night.

That's what it became for me.

It's, what can I.

How can I help them get home safely at night and not.

And not, you know, be wrapped around a tree?

And so this is what I want.

And there's others as well.

There's plenty of other people who have this, this idea to, to drag this industry up and let's start, you know, making a difference to these KSI stats.

And it's not going to be by helping people pass tests.

Think so.

I was.

Sorry.

No, I love it.

You bring road safety into it and you've got my hook straight away.

It's.

But I think there's people.

How can I phrase this?

There'll be a lot of people listening to this.

It's almost an element of preaching is converted.

But I still think even those people that your class has converted, some of them will still feel almost like the back gets up a little bit from that comment of we should be doing more.

We're responsible, or at least partly responsible for these stats, because I believe this.

And I remember last year I posted something on LinkedIn about why are we talking more about the top 10 reasons people fail a test and not the top 10 reasons people crash There was a driving instructor who, I think he was one of the guys at the driving instructor union, in fact, which is a thing I didn't know about until that time.

And his comment to me was somewhat along the lines, go on then, put a percentage of responsibility that driving instructors have for death on the road.

I'm like, how can I put a percentage on it?

But it annoyed him.

And then of course, other driving shuttles are coming in saying zero percent, we're not responsible, we can't control what they do after test.

And do you know what?

There's an element of truth in it.

We can't control what anyone does after test, but we can influence what they do after the test.

And we've got somewhere between 20 and in some cases 120 hours to influence people.

Do you think that there are some, I should say driving shutters out there that don't realize the influence we can have?

Oh, absolutely.

I mean, you said it.

We could never tell someone how to behave the same way.

We can't tell someone how to feel or what to think.

But you're absolutely right, we are in this confined space with often 17, 18 year old, impressionable young people.

How the hell will we not influence them?

They have no one.

I mean, there is a hierarchy and there shouldn't be, but there is a hierarchy in the car that you know, they will, they will listen to you.

If you have the right relationship, they will listen to you, they will respect you.

And it is absolutely a perfect opportunity to influence their thoughts and their behavior post test.

And anyone who thinks, who thinks they can't, can't influence a young person in terms of their behavior and thoughts and feelings post test.

You know, stop, go and stack some shelves in Tesco.

You can't do any damage there.

You know, if you're one of those people that believes that and you've upset with my comment, I don't care if you don't, if you don't have the skills, you don't know how to influence young people, then go and get some training from people who know and who could help you do that.

Because, you know, I'm sort of back on about it.

We should be doing so much better and the way we do that is influencing.

I think I want to come back to that in a minute.

Maybe the big question is how.

What was probably too big for this episode, but we can look at how we start.

But I think before we do, actually I want to touch back on something else you said because you mentioned that when you first sort of Brought coaching into what you do as a result of listening to the inner listening.

Tell how I read books as a result of reading the inner game of tennis.

You said that you describe yourself as failing miserably.

And again, I think that's where a lot of people go wrong, is they'll, they'll try it.

It doesn't work the first time because, let's admit it, they probably crap at it because they've never done it before, but it doesn't work the first time.

So then they give up.

So how did.

I think it's great that you're admitting that, you know, kind of saying I was crap when I first started doing this, I failed miserably.

But how do you get over that hurdle of, of not being good when you first start?

How do you.

How.

And not just like the technical aspect of getting training, although you please tell me about that, but the idea of that, that perseverance that, that psychological barrier we can have.

I, I guess it was.

It's because I believed in it, because I had the experience of, of seeing the results on a tennis court that I knew this worked and having that belief that this works, that I know it can work.

And then John Farlan started talking about it in his.

Was it weekly, weekly's email send out or was it monthly?

I can't remember.

But he started talking about it and he started coming up with some ideas and it was right up my street, aligned with my beliefs of how we should be doing this job better, differently.

And so I started following John more closely.

And then I went up to Derbyshire to see him as I'm training along along with some momentous occasions.

That's when I first met Ian Le Vell, who was a good friend now.

So if I didn't do that, I'd never met Ian, which.

Which would have been.

Made my life much darker.

And so.

And some other guy, I can't remember, I wish I remember who he was.

And then following on from that, I signed up to the big tech with him, Sue McCormack and Graham Hooper.

And the BTEC for me was that missing link.

And Fiona Taylor said this.

I've always said it the way Fiona said it originally, but it was the missing link between what I was doing and what I wanted to do.

And so, you know, I didn't sit in my car going, oh, we should be doing this better and doing the bad.

I got off my ass and I, and I paid for training and I.

Lots of it wasn't cheap but it was so worth it.

And I just invested in myself financially and time wise to go and get the skills that I knew I needed to help or make a small change to those KSI stats.

So yeah, I went off my arse and went and trained and think, learn from people better than me.

I think the, the big thing, I take from that as well.

Just going back to what you said initially, the idea of admitting the, or owning the fact that you failed initially.

I think that one of the problems that we have in our industry, but probably every industry is that a lot of people that are good and prominent just talk about how good they are.

They don't talk about the times of struggle, they don't own the fails they've had that week.

You know, Fridays I'll regularly put a post about the Friday fail.

You know, I'll do that and I have a, somebody in my membership like talk about the, the F word which is fail, not the other one, you know, and it's, it's that kind of stuff and I try and be an open noise and talk about that.

So I like that you do.

Would you agree with that?

Do you think that we can be guilty sometimes of talking about how easy stuff is and how good I am at this thing rather than just going, yeah, it's not always easy, you're going to find it hard.

But we need to work through that.

Absolutely.

I mean I would, I would never say I'm good.

I leave that, you know, or bad or rubbish or whatever.

I leave that to other people.

So other people's opinion of me and that's, that's fine, that's what it should be.

But I think it's about being honest to yourself and having that self awareness to go, you know what, I'm not good at this.

I'm going to get some help.

Or I could be better at putting more positive.

I could be better at what I'm doing.

I'm going to go and get some help and learn from someone who can help me improve.

I'm still doing that.

I've just done the diploma with Kev Field and Neil Whiteman Innovative training coming to name it.

Kill me Idea.

That's all we need to know Idea DT idea.

There you go.

So I'm still doing, I'm still reading, I'm still watching podcasts, listening to people who I can learn from and it's like, you know, it's never ending journey.

It's this learning lock.

Can't remember your original question.

I'm trying to answer it just the.

Idea of, are we guilty of whether it's you personally or like generally more prominent people, guilty of presenting this image of everything's rosy rather than talking about the times where you've struggled as well?

Yeah, I think so, yeah.

In answer to your question before I go for one, I think so, yeah.

I hope I don't fall into that category, but yeah, I think.

And also in terms of learning, it's good to know that the people you look up to in terms of, of their ideas and their skills and everything, it's good to know for that person, learning that, okay, this person fucked up as this person messed up as well, you know, they, they make mistakes and it's something I'd like to do in, in my training, when I'm training PDI's, it's like, you know, I've done that, I've made those, I've done that in lessons.

I've, I still, you know, I still used to do it in lessons when even I was qualified and I think it's important to look at it as the journey.

And something I used to tell my tennis players, you know, when they were having a bad lesson or a bad session or they played the result of the match wasn't great or, you know, it's remember you, Tim Henman, that's how long ago it was.

Tim Henman used to be the same standard as you I'm at now.

So Tim Henman and who else was it?

Sam Press and Federer, people like that, they've all been the same standard and they've made the same mistakes you're making.

So it's, it's not going to be a straight line up, you're going to have ups and downs and I think that's, that's, that's important to understand that, you know, admit your mistakes, people respect it and, and never put yourself on a pedestal because you recently knocked off.

I loved Pete Sampras.

I thought they were awesome.

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The one that always sort of springs to my mind here is I had a teaching a lady, I think it was last year, she was about my age, she was in her 40s and it was quite early on in lessons, but she was very nervous and she just had a lesson where she'd got in her own head about stalling and she was stalling more frequently and then end the lesson, she's like, will you drive us home?

I don't want to, I just want to.

I'm like, okay, you know, I felt like, I'll let you off this time.

I'll drive us back.

I stalled on the way home and it wasn't intentional, it was a mistake.

It was a right turn as well off a main road.

The next lesson she got in car and she's like, I feel quite positive about today and why.

She goes, because I saw.

You saw last time.

And I don't know if you did it on purpose or by accident, but it was nice seeing that you can do it too.

I'm like, oh, maybe I'll start doing this every lesson.

But seeing me fail in her eyes reassured her that it's not just her.

So I think that's why.

Yeah, that's why I liked it that you own that pretty quickly.

But coming back to how we influence drivers, how we influence learners that become drivers, or however you want to phrase.

It.

There'S an Awful lot to cover there.

So I think the question I would ask is what advice would you give to someone who wants to start?

You know, maybe either embracing coaching for the first time or trying to bring it more into what they do.

Where would you suggest someone start?

There.

Wow, so many places you can start.

I mean the obvious first place to start with self awareness, understanding what you're doing, understanding where you want to get to.

Because if you're not self aware, it's not going to work.

A massive part of coaching and self awareness.

And then I would say go and find someone who knows what they're talking about.

Speak to people.

If you find someone researched it, what have they done in the past, what qualifications have they got, what experience have they got, what have they done badly in the past?

And then along the self awareness is the awareness that you need to have, you need to go into this with a, with an empty mind, you know, forget everything you've done before, some of it you're doing already will be brilliant.

You will need those skills.

But go into this thinking, you know, I, I, I, I can do this job better than I'm doing at the moment and be ready to make mistakes.

I'm gonna put you on the spot a little bit actually with this because what's something someone could start or adding to a lesson in terms of coaching?

I'll give you my example if that's okay.

Because I always think start at the beginning, you know, you don't.

If you've never considered doing any form, bringing any form of coaching before and you want to go and just try it before you even get any training.

Well, you could bring it into the goal setting at the start of the lesson instead of coming in and just telling the student what you're doing, you could ask them and whether that's a really broad open question which a lot of people don't like.

What do you fancy doing today, you know, or whether it's a bit more specific and say, can I give you some suggestions based off what we did last week or anywhere in between those two?

Feel that if that's all you did on that next lesson, that's starting to get the ball rolling.

So I always think along those lines.

Is there anything else you might add that something could go away and start doing on the lesson?

Yes, the first thing I would start with is again, have an empty head.

When you have, when you have, when you ask a question, have no idea of the answer you're looking for and just be curious and interested in the answers they give.

You from a totally non judgmental place.

That's, I mean, the toughest thing about coaching, one of the toughest things about coaching is having that non judgmental, whatever that is, where that's called non judgmentalism that, that you know, every answer you get from someone is a gift.

Even if the, even if the answer is to shrug or the answer is a dunno, it's.

It's still a gift.

And you've got to come, you got to react to that gift and just be curious about it.

That's, that would be where I'd probably start.

Be curious.

I like it.

Well, I've joked, yeah, I've joked about this for the past five years, but the single best thing I did that helped me become a better coach was start a podcast.

Because I can't ask you a question expecting not to know what the answer is.

I need to hear your answer and then follow on from that.

And that has helped me so much.

Yeah, I know obviously not everyone can start a pop.

What they can and start a podcast, but it's just that I need to know what your answer's going to be before I can follow on from that.

I can't predict what your answer is going to be.

And it's same with the learners.

I need to find out what your answer is.

Now, I'm human.

Sometimes it comes to my brain sometimes, oh, bet he'll say this.

Or bet he'll say that.

I'm human.

I can't always control that.

But it's a case of going, all right, well, let's see if we're right.

And then when you answer it, it's like, oh, no, you were wrong.

Because nine times out of 10 I will be like, oh, I'm wrong.

Okay, great.

And then where do we go next?

So, yeah, be curious.

I like that.

Yes, definitely.

I want to bring this back sideways if you like a little bit because I want to bring it back to the driving test.

Cause one of the things that you speak about a lot on your own courses on is how and why people fail a driving test and.

How we.

Can rectify that if you like, for better lack of expression.

So again, I'm going to throw that open nice and broad.

Talk to me a bit about that.

Well, it starts with that, with that idea that, you know, I'm not here to help you pass a test.

I'm here to make sure you can get your friends and family home safely at night and then yourself afterwards.

And I think one of the, one of the problems and this, this is this goes back to, to the training people have had and it's, it's not their fault.

But the EVSA are so test focused in everything they put out.

I mean the top 10 reasons just wind me up and, and their, their, their communications with the public are all test focused.

So it's no surprise that people come to us when they're ready.

I want to pass my test and it's our job or my belief our job is to change that, help them change that mentality.

Look, it's not about the test, it's about making sure you get home safely at night.

And we can start that from day one because if you have, you have it in the back of your mind that I need to help this person pass the test.

Doesn't matter what you think you're doing, your training will be test focused.

You will be training to pass a test.

And see on so many adverts and posts, I don't teach people to pass a test.

I see.

I teach safe driving for life and I've sat in the back of so many ADI PDI lessons to help them and they'll tell me I don't teach to pass the test.

I teach safe driving for life.

But as soon as they start talking, you can hear the teaching to pass a test.

Because the biggest problem is they are teaching to pass the test because they're teaching to a standard that's going to get them to pass the test because it's on the marking sheet and they teach to the marking sheet.

Oh I don't, I teach, you know, I teach people to do drive throughs and multi story car parks and that's not on the test.

Fantastic.

Brilliant.

That's something definitely been doing.

But in your head you've got, they have to pass the test.

And so the language we use in lessons, you know, even, even the language in our head, not just the language we verbalize, we have in our head is like what examiner think of that?

As soon as you are thinking that you are teaching to pass a test, you know, oh that's a great bit of path, kid.

Examiner would love that you are teaching to pass a test.

I'm sorry, because that's the standard you're aiming at.

The standard that the examiner will be happy with.

And so we, and again I'm generalizing we as an industry, probably better thing to say is we will say things like that to boost confidence and to show how impressed we are with the standard and help them feel better about another roundabout, the parking or the whatever.

But if you're training, sorry.

The way you train is focused on the test.

Then what you are doing.

Every time you mention test or examiner you are adding a little bit of pressure into that learner and it's like a wind up toy re winding him up.

Test examiner would like that, wind him up a bit more.

Wind up a bit more.

And so the 40 odd hours you've spent winding him up into this tight, nervous toy.

And it's now test day and every lesson they've had has been focused on this one point.

And so you've come in from this massive angle at the beginning and you know, focused on test and the test is now here.

Of course they're gonna have a brain far, of course they're gonna mess up something you've practiced a hundred times because there is so much pressure on them that they've now got to that the end because that's what they've been taught.

Even, even, you know, subconsciously, not even on purpose from, from most ADIs or PDIs, they now know there's, there's been so much pressure built up because this is it.

This is the day I've been working for for the last 40 hours.

Of course there's going to be so much pressure.

Of course they're going to do stuff they wouldn't normally do.

Of course they're going to mess up stuff that's easier they've never done before.

You know, and oh, they focus on nerves.

No, they freaking didn't.

You know, they had a brain fart.

I've never seen them do it before.

That's because, you know, and we've got to stop having this idea this person needs to pass the test.

The test is, of course, I understand that it's going to be nervous.

It's a test.

Of course I understand that.

But we don't help with the way that we look at our job as an instructor that our job is to help you with past tests.

Because it's not, it's, you know, if, if the conversations you have should be around, you know, I mean, the example I use on the course is, you know, that they've parked a foot away from the, from the curb or a little bit more than a foot that's too far from the curb on a parallel park, you know, in your head.

And I'm just making assumptions here.

As a PDI or adi, you open the door and you go in your head, that's too far.

Right.

Why is it too far?

Because they wouldn't pass their test.

And so the conversation may not mention the test.

You may, you know, if that happens on test, that'd be a bit far.

Or you know, it's examiner wouldn't like that.

You're not going to pass that.

You know that kind of language.

But in your head you started with.

That'S too far because it wouldn't pass the test.

Now imagine you approach a different way.

You know, you say to your mate, sorry, you say to the person you're teaching, he might be a mate.

Now that, that's your, that's your best mate.

What's your best mate's name?

Dave.

Right, that's Dave.

That's where Dave lives.

Let's say you're picking him up to go to a festival or something or go out for a party and you park like this.

What's Dave gonna say when he comes out and sees you apart like that?

Oh, he'll take a piss.

Okay, so go and have another go and go and put the car back where Dave's not going to set a piss.

That's non test focused training.

I said no in your head.

There's nothing about the test.

It's what would his mate think if he parked like this?

And give him examples.

If your student likes playing football, you picked up mate to come play football.

What are they going to say?

And it's not in their head, it's not test either.

It's helping them think about the future.

Then what happens after I'm driving by myself, that's the standard.

And when we talk about the standard should be their standard.

That's.

That's what we mean, not the test standard.

But I think there's a lot I want to touch back on there, I think think.

I agree.

I agree.

I think maybe, well, I'll put my context on it if you like, in that I always think of it as the driving test is one of the few things in life where the test is easier than what you do after the test.

So yes, like you said, you'll get nervous, you'll get pressure on a driving test course you will.

So that aspect of it is potentially harder.

But the driving you do on a driving test, compared to the driving you do potentially every day, it's remarkably easy.

You get to drive for 10 minutes and have a pull up and have a rest.

You get to do a bay park in the quiet bit of the car park, you know, you get to do a parallel park from behind a parked car.

Now I know the potential change in this, but you know, we're looking at what it is now, the skill level on A driving test is remarkably low compared to what it is in real life driving.

So it can't generally be a skill thing as to why people fail.

Yeah.

So I think, I agree.

I think just the way I look at it slightly differently potentially.

I don't know, maybe this is the same is I talk a lot about you, will us get you to a driver standard and then when you're a driver standard, your test will be easy because you already driving to this high standard.

And like you say, the language we use and the experience and the practice we do is all based around how do you become a good driver.

Avoiding the test as much as possible.

The tricky bit is when they ask about the test.

We'll come back to that potentially.

But so I think we're on the same wavelength there actually as I talk through that.

But an interesting one for me and I had a student who passed earlier this year and annoyingly, she didn't put it in a review.

She got out of the car and she went, she kind of paused before she closed door and she went, this is just after she passed her test.

Sorry.

She kind of paused while she closed on one.

I've been a driver for months, haven't I?

And I didn't answer.

She went, I've been driving for months.

And she went, now I can just do it legally.

And I thought that that's it.

That sums up in my opinion how I teach and how we should teach.

It's just my opinion that we should teach them to drive and then the test is just something that lets them do it legally.

Just perform a set of basic skills.

That's a stepping stone.

Yeah, yeah.

As I've described that.

Are we on the same level there, do you think?

Yeah.

And I love what she said.

That's great.

And that's exactly what it should be, you know, and so, and so I would imagine that non test focused training on the test, they will drive for themselves, not for the examiner, which I think makes a big difference to their mindset.

But yeah, I love that.

I love that.

What she said, that was brilliant.

I've been driving for months.

Yeah.

See, I've just been waiting for a test for ages.

Maybe that's part of the problem.

Now you've got the tests on the brain all the time.

But the that aspect there, though, not driving through the examiner, I think that's huge because I'm sure you've seen this, I'm sure people listening have seen this where you can, if you sat on a test and you see them, you can See them thinking about the examiner like it's almost telepathy.

You can see that they're not thinking about the driving, they're thinking about, you know, they'll make a.

Hate the word, but they'll make a mistake.

And straight away their eyes kind of go towards other body language, inches towards the examiner.

What, what's, you know, what's he put?

Or they'll, they'll put some on the iPad that might not even be a, a fault recording, but they'll do something with the iPad and straight away you can see them shift a little bit.

And I suppose element of that is natural, you are being assessed.

But what can we do then to shift that focus away from the examiner, do you think?

Again, a lot of it is to do with helping them understand that the test, like you said, is a stepping stone.

It's the bare minimum.

It's a bloody easy test.

It's not a difficult test.

15 faults in 40 minutes.

Jesus.

So it's not difficult.

But I think that how we help them is from day one, helping them understand that the goal isn't to pass the test, it's the next step you need to take so you can do it by yourself and you can get your friends home safely and you know the examiner wants you to pass when you pass.

The examiner's job is easy to send it off when they fail, they've got to write all this stuff about why you failed and they were affected and blah, blah, blah.

So they want you to pass.

They're not ogres.

Their job satisfaction comes from seeing your face when you pass.

And I think that this also comes from the relationship in the car.

You know, if you're interested in what they say and you're curious about what they say and the chat you have from a non, coming from a non judgmental place, I think it makes it a lot easier for them to understand that Mr. Or Mrs.

Examiner are on their side as well.

I think, well, how do we manage the test questions or the test discussion from students then?

Very similar way to, I mean, don't get me wrong, you have to have a, you have to have test prep, you know, test prep is not test focused training, you know, so I would, when I used to teach trainer ex learners, sorry, we'd go and park up in the car park, we'd go for a walk, we'd go and sit in a test in the car park waiting.

If they wanted to, we'd go for what happens in a day.

That's, that's test prep.

That's in my opinion, that's fine.

That's part of getting them ready.

But those conversations, if someone was to ask me, you know, would that pass a test?

I would just flip it straight away and say, what would you make Dave think about it?

What would your boyfriend think of that?

A good question.

I like to ask boy drivers, boys, boy learners, rather, was, what would your girlfriend's dad think of that behavior?

Would you drive like that with your girlfriend's dad in the back?

You know, would you.

Would he pass?

Would he think that's a good drive?

Again, it's futureing himself, looking past the test and just flipping it.

Yeah.

I don't work with many teenagers at the minute.

I seem to have an older client base.

But one thing I used to ask the young lads were, who's your favorite footballer?

Okay.

Imagine you're chauffeuring them.

How would you drive differently?

I always found that worked quite well.

But the test preference.

It's not test.

It's not test.

Yeah.

Do you know what an example that.

A specific example I find that I think works well in this scenario is bay parking.

Go to asda.

All the supermax are available.

Do your bay park the right tight to one line on their side, for example?

Tend to.

I sometimes ask them about the test on this because I ask them two questions.

Would you pass a test?

And they'll say, well, I think so.

Then I'll ask them, would you leave it if you're off shopping?

And they'll say, no.

And I find that fascinating.

And I'll say, okay, I'll move it.

And they'll adjust it and it's good.

Then practice adjusting it.

But it's like, look, because this is a standard you want to achieve, you don't want to be there, you want to be here.

It also shows them again how the skill level on the test is potentially easy.

So that's me bringing the test into it because I'm asking those two questions, would this pass a test?

And then also, would you leave it here?

So I'm intrigued your thoughts on me doing that.

Because I'm bringing the test into it.

Feel free to critique me.

I think you're right.

The different answers are really interesting.

Pass the test, but we'll leave it here.

I think that difference there is really interesting because I'm all into, like, how the brain works and psychology and stuff.

I personally wouldn't.

I would.

I would just ask the second question, you know, would you leave here and go and go and go shopping?

But I think the difference from a good aspect.

I think asking the way you asked it, I think that's just thinking about it.

I think that's pretty good actually because then it helps them understand that that there might be a difference between host test driving and test driving.

So I'm going to say keep doing it.

It's rare I get positive feedback during a podcast, so I like that.

That's my clip now, but I realized as I was saying it then as well that's what we spoke about earlier was not presuming answers and I do presume the answer, but I am never expect it.

I should clarify that because I will get some people sometimes that say now Woodley they but that opens up a discussion of what I'm going to do with small part next to you but you get in when you come back and it opens up that brilliant discussion.

So again it's waiting for their answer.

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But I suppose I just want to touch on that a little bit more around the idea of them asking questions around a test.

And again, I'm going to give you my thoughts on this and I tend to answer it and then do what you've suggested.

Would I fail a test for that?

Well, yeah, Or I'll ask them, I'll say, what do you think?

And they'll say, yes, no, I don't know, whatever.

But I have the discussion around the test and I'll.

We'll.

But then what would happen in real life?

Well, we'll either crashed, Right?

Well, that's why you would have failed the test.

So is it anything to do with a test?

No.

So what's it to do with me not crashing?

Right.

And I can't.

We kind of build it on from there.

You're pulling a slightly different expression at this one, Terry.

So I'm just thinking about it.

It's made me think, okay, look, I'm.

I'm not saying I'm right.

I'm not saying I'm at the front of all knowledge.

I'd never think that just for me.

I mean, I like what you do.

I like there's that compare and contrast thing with their behavior and what would happen in real life and stuff.

And I think that's important.

Obviously.

I just have the belief that, that every time you mention the T word or the examiner word, you just turn that, that screw a bit more.

I think I agree.

I think I agree.

I'm probably making it sound like shut me up.

No, no, I think I'm probably.

It's one of those things where I can think of an example of where I've done something and now it's in my head.

It feels like I do it every 10 minutes on a lesson.

And it's not.

It's the thing that happens occasionally.

I think I'm.

I'm very much along the same wavelength, but where I'm maybe not quite as far.

I'm.

I'm a bit more happy to Talk about it.

But do you know what?

I. I think it's because I'm interested in what people ask and why they ask it.

I think there's a bit of that there from me and you mentioned the examiner there.

The best ones for me that seem to take the pressure off are inadvertent ones where a student accidentally calls the examiner an examinator and all of a sudden there's no pressure on them anymore.

Because now when they say examiner and I will keep repeating examiner, they think it's hilarious and it's like all the pressure goes.

And so I think there's elements of that going around in my brain as well.

But how do you steer?

I think you touched on this before, but I just want to ask again, how do we steer away from it?

So when that student says bit of parking, let's stick with that example.

I'm online or just inside line.

So technically we're talking tests in the past.

The student says to you, would this pass a test?

How do you come away from that without just potentially just shutting them down?

I would just say, would you, would you leave it here?

Yeah.

And then it opens up a conversation like I said.

So when you come back, what shape is your door going to be?

How easy will it be to get in?

Would you know about the driver next to you or the person getting into the car next to you will be a little kid who maybe doesn't understand, you know, you know you're picking up your mother in law, she's going to get in that side.

Yeah.

What she going to think of your bar kids.

If you was in specific real world examples.

I like it.

Yeah, we mentioned it a couple of times about the top 10 reasons people fail.

How damaging is that?

That goes out every year so everyone can see it.

It's published by a government organization that's sent out in emails and social media and then every driving instructor gets hold of it and talks about it.

How damaging is that to what say we are trying to achieve?

It's just ridiculous.

It just shows that their mantra, you know, safe driving for life, gotta be careful.

What I said I can't get in trouble again with it.

Oh, like you said again, I get in trouble again.

Yeah, it goes against road safety because it just focuses, first of all, it focuses their attention on, right.

These are the things people fail on.

And so an ADI might look at that and go, oh, this is what people fail on.

I better teach this properly.

I don't want to fall into a trap of top 10 reasons people fail.

And Then the training then has to become test focused and nothing changes.

They pass the test and they go and kill themselves.

Well, they're mates.

I mean, it's, it's, it beggars belief that it actually upsets me every time I read, you know, four kids killed in a car crash.

You know, there was, you know, there was one recently, I think it was Scotland.

Three young men gone wasted.

And it's, it's.

Every time I read something like that, it's in my head, it's, we should be, we should be doing better.

We could be doing so much better.

And that freaking top 10 reasons people fail is just goes against everything that we're trying to change.

Even if we did look at it, and I know we're not, but even if we did look at it from a test centered approach, imagine we were taking a test centered approach.

Well, what if they fail for point number 11 or 12?

You know, it's like, why, why not produce the top 50 in order?

Why only the top 10?

You know, and I cannot remember the chap's name, but it was someone at the conference earlier this year from the dvsa.

I forget his name, but I spoke to him about this specifically and I was, you know, getting quite agitated actually, and saying, why are we still promoting this?

That's not why people fail.

That's the box we tick as the technical thing.

Yeah, but it's not why they failed.

99% of the time, occasionally there's going to be a skill issue, you know, whatever.

But 99% of the time there's going to be some another reason, which we know when we sit in the back, we know why they go, we know when they're going to fail sometimes because we can see the body language, or we can say, we're looking right, they're going to fail now, or they are.

In fact, you don't think that.

You think, please don't, please do this, please do this.

You know, but it's, it's just like, no, that's why they fail.

Like, and he used to be an instructor, you know as well as I do, it's not.

And as instructors, whether this is on lessons, whether it's on social media, whether it's on podcasts or whatever, there's so much about the top 10 fails.

What would you suggest?

Or would you suggest something?

Could you suggest something that we could do to counter that?

I mentioned before about the top 10 reasons people crash as opposed to fails?

You know, is there anything you could suggest that we can do as instructors?

To counter that rather than promote that.

How about the top 10 reasons people pass?

There you go.

Me and you, Terry, we're going to do with Terry and Terry, top 10 reasons people pass.

Let's look at that.

Yeah.

You know what, what are top 10 reasons people pass?

You know, who knows what we'll come up with?

But.

But I bet somewhere along there it'll be well prepared or great mindset or, you know, handled situation.

You've.

You just got yourself another podcast episode with that.

I don't know where that fits.

I don't know how it's going to work.

But me and you somehow were doing the top ten reasons people pass.

You mentioned test prep, doing test prep, and you spoke a couple of things about what you do.

What's your stance on mock tests?

Fantastic.

I don't think we use them well enough.

And again, it's from the way we're trained.

See, the problem with saying it does weird.

You.

You have.

I'm sorry for making you feel this way today, Terry.

No, it's just.

It just, it just.

I'm, I'm just.

I love the job and I love being in this industry, but some of it just frustrates the hell Happy.

And one of them is training.

And I'm just gonna talk about the training in this country, although we do it is ridiculous.

You've got people who are trained by bad trainers or poor, poor trainers, and they've passed on all their poor skills and their skills got them to pass the pathway.

And it's normally based in PST stuff anyway.

And then a couple years later, this new ADI says, oh, I fancy training.

They don't go and get any training and they teach new PDIs the same way they were taught.

And so this poor training just.

It's just a vicious circle.

And then I can't remember the bloody question again.

Jesus.

Well, it was about MOT test, but then he started telling me about training.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

And so this poor trainer taught this PDI about mock tests and it's to, you know, do it four weeks before the test, make it as realistic as you can, blah, blah, blah, and then go through all things I did wrong and then work on those things to test, blah, blah, blah.

And so the new new ADR teaches the next ADI to do the same thing.

And so that's traditionally how we do mock tests.

Nothing wrong with that.

Nothing wrong with that if that's going to help the student.

Brilliant.

But there's so many other ways, you know, so many other ways we, we can we, can we can do a mock test.

We, we can, we can do mock.

We can do specific mock test.

Let's go mock test your, your, your maneuvers.

Let's go mock test your roundabout.

Let's do roundabouts.

20 minutes.

Let's do a test on that.

And this is test prep.

It's not test focused training.

Let's do a mini mock.

You know, mini mock.

You can do mini mock on first lesson.

Let's do a mini mock.

And you're pulling away.

You get the sheet out on your mock it great.

Brilliant.

Look at that.

Zero faults.

It's too many mock on pulling over.

Pulling over.

Now let's do mini mock on left turns.

And the good thing about mock testing is it gets them used to being tested which again hopefully would help them have a more positive outlook on the actual test.

But again it's still linked to real world post test driving.

And that's the important thing for mock test needs to be linked to post test driving too.

And the feedback.

Something I also like to do is a reverse mock.

Let's go for a 10 minute drive and I'm going to mark everything you do well on this sheet and the sheets full of ticks after 10 minutes.

Don't do an hour, don't do 40 minutes.

We won't have enough room.

Every time you check in, boom.

Speed and approach.

Boom.

Whatever else on the sheet, pull away with tick and they see all these ticks.

It's like it's just full, full of, full of ink.

So I like to do that.

Especially if someone is.

There's a difference between their competence and their confidence of what they're doing.

I like to use that in those situations.

Again, it's, it's linking it to post test driving.

You know all these great things you do when you're driving your mates home.

I think that positivity is a big one as well.

I like that idea of reverse mock test.

I think I do somewhat similar.

But look.

Yeah, somewhat similar.

Although doing like a mock test fashion now.

I always think about someone making a mistake.

So again, I don't like the word mistake but gear changes in the smooth as they'd like or they put it wrong gear and then put it back or whatever and they'll mention it.

I'm like, how many times have you changed gear today?

I don't know.

Take a guess.

It's probably like 400.

Okay.

How many times has it not gone as well as you'd want?

Like twice.398 that you notice the two the same way you notice the one car that beeps, not the other 764 that didn't beep at you that day.

Yeah, I think that, that positivity is massive.

But I think one other thing, I want to ask your opinion around the test because something I used to do, I'm holding my hands up here.

You know, we all make mistakes.

At least I believe it's a mistake.

You might correct me on this and say it's the right thing.

But when we're talking about a test, I used to offer advice outside the test center.

You know, we pulled up outside test center ready to go in and I would start going, ooh, remember this?

Remember this?

Oh, if this happens, do this.

And it took me ages to realize I've just now given them a shitload of stuff to remember before they go and do a test that they're already nervous about.

So for anyone listening that does that, what I used to do.

And then I'm clearly saying I don't think it's a good idea that offers that last minute advice.

What would your thoughts be on that?

What do you say to someone that's doing that?

Firstly, I used to do it as well.

Absolutely.

I think, yeah, absolutely should do that.

And actually I was being helpful advice.

Ah, don't do it because like you said, they're not listening.

You know, if they don't know it now, there's no point talking about it.

All you're, all you'll be doing is filling their head and their mind with stuff that won't help.

So yeah, I used to think I was not being helpful.

I was being the complete opposite.

Yeah.

Tends to think now if I'm having to remind them of stuff, it means I haven't helped them enough beforehand.

Yeah, possibly.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

They should know that before.

But you mentioned the training aspect then I just want to touch on this briefly and I don't necessarily want to talk about DVSA because the crap at this.

I don't necessarily want to talk about driving schools because I don't think we can reach them.

You know, the, the bulk of them, not all, some really, really good ones, but the bulk.

And we're out there to make money and churn people through and, and, and, and whatnot.

But the people that are currently.

Yeah, let's look at it from both perspectives.

I'll let you answer both.

The PDI is an ADI perspective.

So if you're currently receiving training, you may not know that that training is poor because you don't know what you don't know or if you're an ADI that has received training again, you may not realize that that training was poor somehow you've qualified and now you're off.

So if they were then thinking about going into training and training others, what, how would you address them?

What would, what should they do before they start training other people?

Go and get some training.

Simple.

As I, I, my trainer, I'm not going to mention what company it was.

They were quite big in the day.

I didn't realize how bad my training was until I went somewhere else after two, two failed part three attempts.

So, yeah, we don't know what you don't know.

But if you are gonna, if you are thinking about going down the training PDI routes, go and get some training.

Just because you're, you know, you're a good instructor doesn't mean you're going to be a great, good trainer.

Same as football.

Great players don't make good managers.

It's a different job.

You know, training PDIS is different to training learners and the fact that anybody could train a PDI is just, I can't even think of words.

It's that ridiculous.

So don't be like the majority and just go straight into it.

Go and go and find out how.

To do it properly then from the other perspective.

And I suppose this would be more aimed at PDIs, but I suppose it does apply to ADIs as well.

Knowing with.

How do you know if your training's any good?

Because I suppose listening to something like this can help because you get to hear different perspectives.

But how would you know if the training you're currently receiving is, is quality?

Great question.

How do you know you're right?

You know, how would you know?

Because I see some posts about instructors in where I'm from and I know a lot of instructors around here and I read posts from their students going, the best instructor ever.

I'm going, no, they're not.

They're absolutely shit.

But that's all they know.

So they're going to be the best instructor ever because that's to help them pass the test.

So how would you know?

Great question, Terry.

I guess there's something coming to my head.

The only way you'd actually know is going to go to going to multiple trainers.

But I wouldn't recommend that because we all, unfortunately we all train differently and some have more or less skills than others.

Maybe intuition.

Listen to intuition.

I think that's a good shout.

You know, stuff doesn't always feel right and I think that ties into the thing that I suggest is not being afraid to not challenge.

But ask your trainer, you know, why is that?

Why are we doing this?

What's the purpose of this?

And a good trainer, at least in my opinion, a good trainer will be able to answer that and not just shut down and go.

Because I've said so.

You know, I've, I've given this example before, and my trainer was a great trainer for the PSTs.

He's very probably a really good trainer now for client side learning.

I learned in the old PSTs, but I can vividly recall on.

So, so I'm saying that to clarify, I'm not criticizing him, but I can vividly recall on.

On one training session, we'd gone from a 30 to a 40 zone, and I think I'd changed to fourth or fifth or whatever.

And I didn't check my center right mirror.

And he said to me, what should you do when you change your speed and change gear?

And I said, I'll check my center right mirror.

Okay, so why didn't you.

I said, I don't know.

And he said, well, if you don't know, if you know what you should do, but you don't know why you didn't do it, then I can't help you anymore.

And I can remember just being like, that's not great.

That's kind of your job.

And I think that, like you said, intuition.

So when someone doesn't feel like, like that not being afraid to ask them or, or any aspect of it and being afraid to ask and they should be to explain.

And where you said about multiple training, I agree with you.

We shouldn't be going to like 10 different trainers necessarily, because you get too much information.

Yeah.

But I also think podcasts, YouTube channels, Facebook groups even have a good way of getting different ideas in different contexts and then going back to your trainer and saying, I saw this.

What are your thoughts on this?

And it might be that the trainer's right and that the person posting it was wrong and the trainer can explain that it might be the other way around.

And I think it's the way the trainer responds to that.

It can be a really good indicator whether that training is actually any good or not.

At least they're my faults.

Yeah, no, I, I'm, I'm, I'm really, really dubious with, with YouTube.

Probably wouldn't send a PDO to a YouTube channel unless I knew it.

Same with podcasts.

I mean, it's you, basically, you and.

Oh, Josh, if they listen to you too, they break.

I listen to these guys, YouTube scares me.

When a PDF says, I saw this on YouTube, a shiver goes down me.

Something like that.

What have they said now?

So definitely podcasts.

One thing I will say is, is before you choose your training, research them, Ask them two questions.

What training have you done to train me?

And what qualifications have you done to train me?

If the answer is zero to both of them.

Next.

Yeah, I can see that.

I've got interesting thoughts on qualifications, but I think I'm coming around to them.

But that's another topic for another day.

Just a brief aside.

Podcast.

We've also got Inspire podcast, which I would recommend.

Inspire.

Sorry, I forgot about God, Phil and Diana.

Yep.

Diana.

Yeah, sorry.

Knowledgeable instructor training.

Liam, Mick.

Oh, yes, of course.

Yeah, Liam every day.

Yeah.

And Dipod, but only when you're tired and need a nap.

Sorry, Dipod.

I do love you, really.

And regarding YouTube, you can find the ADI and JC on there.

Their channel is quite good.

Tom and Terry popping up on there now quite regularly.

And.

Yeah, so I just wanted to chuck those out there just to make sure that people aren't just listening to me.

They get a variety.

But they recommended.

Because, you know they're good.

Exactly.

You know they know they're talking about.

I forgot Liam, Mick and Phil.

And for bad, I always forget something.

If you're listening, don't worry.

I often get a message after episodes where someone will say, you mentioned all these people.

You didn't mention me.

Can't mention everyone.

But.

Yes, but now we know you are good, Terry.

So, in fact, people listen to this episode.

If there was only one thing they take away from it.

What's the one thing you would like them to take away from today?

It's Monday morning.

Now that.

Right.

It's Monday morning.

It is indeed.

I'm on form.

You need to be.

Fairly often.

Jesus.

One thing.

All right, here we go.

It's kind of two things, but it can wrap them into one try.

Right.

If.

If you think coaching isn't.

If you try coaching and it doesn't work, don't give up and go and learn how to do it.

Like it?

I like it.

Do you want to take a moment to tell people where they can find you and what you might have that's of interest?

You can find me on Book Face.

Sorry.

Facebook name is Terry Lefterin.

Hear that, Hear that?

Yep.

Thank you, Don.

Stressing is my website, so I'm also a personal coach and business coach, so you can find some stuff on there.

LinkedIn.

I'm on LinkedIn.

Yeah, that's it really well.

Links for that will be in the show notes on the episode description, but on the episode workbook I should say about all that's left to me to say is big thank you for joining me today.

Terry left Turi, it's been a pleasure.

I feel humbled to be asked.

Terry, it's been a good blast.

Thank you so much.

A big thank you to Terry for joining me on today's episode.

I found that quite thought provoking.

It made me think a little bit about the way I teach and reflect on.

Do I potentially talk about the test a bit too much?

Do I get that balance right?

Definitely something for me to think about.

And I just want to give a reminder to you guys that I hope you signed up for the instructor podcast email because you will get the accompanying workbook that goes alongside this.

Now if you haven't signed up already, don't worry.

We'll be sending another email in a few days with the same workbooking.

But every episode that goes out on a month by month basis you will get the episode workbook.

So make sure you are signed up to the instructor podcast email list and you can find that in the show notes.

I hope you enjoyed it.

Thank you for listening.

I'm going to make a little suggestion to you now.

Switch off your phone.

Take a break from your phone.

Put it away.

We need to start unplugging a little bit more as people and I think we can be guilty of spending too much time on our phone.

So I am now going to suggest that you unplug, switch off your phone, take a couple of hours away and maybe revisit again later on.

But for now, let's keep raising standards.

The Instructor Podcast with Terry Cook talking with leaders, innovators, experts and game changers about what drives them.