In this episode of How To Take The Lead, we ask the question 'is leadership for you?'. We are into our fourth series of the podcast now and we realised we hadn't ever really addressed this question.

We share our own experiences and the reasons why we have chosen to step into leadership positions.

Our conversation is broad and wide ranging covering the following:

• the difference between leadership and management
• what defines you as a leader - is it about positional power and hierarchy or something else?
• clarity on your purpose and the impact you intend to have as a leader
• is leadership all about the job title and the pay, plus is it ok to want to be paid well for what you do?
• do you choose to be a leader or is it something that is granted to you by others?
• defining what leadership means - no one size fits all
• questions you can start to ask yourself about why you want to be a leader, regardless of whether you are new to leadership or a well established leader.

Resources and helpful links

About How to Take the Lead

How to Take the Lead is a show exploring all things leadership.

Every episode we explore a different part of life as a leader, questioning everything we've ever learnt and sharing a few of our own stories along the way.

If you want to learn how to do leadership your own way, join hosts Lee Griffith and Carrie-Ann Wade as they debunk myths, tackle stereotypes and generally put the leadership world to rights.

Get involved

If you enjoyed this episode why not subscribe to the podcast. We would love it if you left us a rating or review and feel free to share the link to this episode with anyone else you think would find it interesting.

If you want to watch this episode, subscribe to our YouTube channel to make sure you don't miss out.

And you can be a part of our Substack community, where you can get extra bonus goodies, network with a community of leaders and get direct access to us both.

We're also over on Instagram for more behind the scenes, news and views.

Plus if you want to work with us to challenge and change leadership in your organisation get in touch by dropping us an email howtotakethelead@gmail.com or DM us on the socials.

Lee Griffith: 00:00:00

We have a joke in our family about putting our

Lee Griffith: 00:00:02

high heels on a three I suppose I'd throw the question back and

Lee Griffith: 00:00:08

go do we need to redefine now I'm not sure we do

Lee Griffith: 00:00:18

welcome to how to take the leap the podcast where we challenge

Lee Griffith: 00:00:21

the myths and stereotypes of what it means to be a leader

Lee Griffith: 00:00:23

today and help you to succeed in post without compromise. I'm Lee

Lee Griffith: 00:00:27

Griffith

Lee Griffith: 00:00:28

Carrie-Ann Wade: and I'm Carrie-Anne Wade and together we

Lee Griffith: 00:00:30

will be your guides questioning everything we've ever learned

Lee Griffith: 00:00:33

about leadership sharing our experiences along the way and

Lee Griffith: 00:00:36

inspiring you to make a real impact in your role visit house

Lee Griffith: 00:00:39

take the lead.com For show notes past episodes and

Lee Griffith: 00:00:42

join our community enjoy this episode

Lee Griffith: 00:00:44

Carrie-Ann Wade: Hello, and welcome to this episode of how

Lee Griffith: 00:01:00

to take the lead. Hello Hello Lee. I was I sorry, I just I was

Lee Griffith: 00:01:05

gonna get really formal then and go for those people who don't

Lee Griffith: 00:01:08

but of course people listen all the time they know who we are.

Lee Griffith: 00:01:11

And I was about to say I'm Carrie Anne and I'm here with

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the lovely Lee and I am so Lee how are you?

Lee Griffith: 00:01:16

I'm good I'm really good yes yeah and

Lee Griffith: 00:01:19

energizing week so far um you know notionin' in my way through

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life.

Lee Griffith: 00:01:26

Carrie-Ann Wade: Of course you I love it. You've got an app for

Lee Griffith: 00:01:28

every occasion to help keep you organized. You tried to get me

Lee Griffith: 00:01:33

on the app wagons as well and I do well for a bit and then

Lee Griffith: 00:01:37

knowing my personality type fade away until you GME back up. But

Lee Griffith: 00:01:41

yes nation is our new favorite app for this podcast series,

Lee Griffith: 00:01:45

which is very excited. If notion would like to sponsor an episode

Lee Griffith: 00:01:49

please feel free if they happen to be listening. I wanted to say

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fabulous blouse you have on Lee, loving it.

Lee Griffith: 00:01:57

Ditto, ditto for you, you will see yours is the I

Lee Griffith: 00:02:01

feel like you're really going you've got the 1920s vibe going

Lee Griffith: 00:02:06

that little bob in the fringes, but also the pattern in the

Lee Griffith: 00:02:11

Carrie-Ann Wade: scalloped edge is what I was. That's the word I

Lee Griffith: 00:02:14

was trying. And this only makes any sense if you're watching

Lee Griffith: 00:02:17

this on YouTube. Of course, if you're listening to us on the

Lee Griffith: 00:02:19

podcast, we've done really poorly in our description there

Lee Griffith: 00:02:22

anything that we're wearing, so you can't picture us but I'm

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sure you would have spotted us on socials because there'll be

Lee Griffith: 00:02:28

some posts there about this episode. So you'll get to see

Lee Griffith: 00:02:31

what we're wearing. And what a lovely surprise you'll have. If

Lee Griffith: 00:02:34

you see that after you've listened to the episode. Anyhow,

Lee Griffith: 00:02:38

we are not here today to chat, fashion, clothes, any of that

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kind of stuff. We are here to tackle a subject that I feel

Lee Griffith: 00:02:48

like we have touched on in different ways shapes and forms

Lee Griffith: 00:02:53

a bit other episodes of how to take the lead, but I'm not sure

Lee Griffith: 00:02:57

we've ever really tackled it head on. And we've obviously

Lee Griffith: 00:03:01

made some assumptions that people listening to this podcast

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are listening because they are either leaders already or they

Lee Griffith: 00:03:08

are aspiring leaders of the future. totally distracted now

Lee Griffith: 00:03:13

by Lee's amazing looking drink. What is that delight?

Lee Griffith: 00:03:17

I'm totally on the iced coffee protein coffee

Lee Griffith: 00:03:22

bandwagon here for a moment, I

Lee Griffith: 00:03:24

Carrie-Ann Wade: thought you were having the same sort of

Lee Griffith: 00:03:26

cocktail that I was in on the action with and I was about to

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get absolutely massive FOMO sorry, listeners, totally

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distracted viewers will have obviously seen a delightful

Lee Griffith: 00:03:37

drink up in where was I at? So we have seen that people

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listening to this podcast, have some level of desire to be a

Lee Griffith: 00:03:46

leader in the future, or they are in some sort of leadership

Lee Griffith: 00:03:49

position now. But I'm not sure we've ever really just asked is

Lee Griffith: 00:03:54

leadership for you? So I wanted us to kind of just have a

Lee Griffith: 00:03:58

conversation about that in this episode, if that's all right

Lee Griffith: 00:04:01

with you V today. I think we've talked before that drivers and

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motivation may be to lead and also how to be motivated as a

Lee Griffith: 00:04:12

leader. But I guess I just wanted to know a bit more about

Lee Griffith: 00:04:18

why people might want to be leaders. And I thought actually,

Lee Griffith: 00:04:21

maybe that would be a good interview question and one that

Lee Griffith: 00:04:24

I've never actually had myself. But I thought oh, I'm surprised

Lee Griffith: 00:04:27

I've never been asked why do you want to be a leader here? So I'm

Lee Griffith: 00:04:32

gonna break that down for any future interviews that I'm doing

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for myself. And it might be that you are aspiring to be that

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leader. But it's also a relevant question. I think if you've been

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a leader for a while questioning why you want a leadership

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position, why you're putting yourself out there in that

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leadership space. So before we get into the real meat of it, I

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thought it might be interesting and helpful for listeners to

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hear a little bit about our own motivation. So I'm gonna put you

Lee Griffith: 00:05:00

on the spot, not because I am interviewing you for a job, Lee,

Lee Griffith: 00:05:04

but I wondered what your motivation was to move into that

Lee Griffith: 00:05:08

leadership space there, maybe you could tell us a bit more

Lee Griffith: 00:05:11

about that to just get us off and set the context for the

Lee Griffith: 00:05:14

conversation.

Lee Griffith: 00:05:16

It's so interesting. So as you were

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talking, there are lots of different, almost like little

Lee Griffith: 00:05:22

sub chats that were going on in my head. Was this kind of? Yeah.

Lee Griffith: 00:05:29

Are you? Are you being interviewed to be a leader or

Lee Griffith: 00:05:31

being a manager? And is it a hierarchical thing? I mean,

Lee Griffith: 00:05:35

there's so many different things go in there. Did I want to be a

Lee Griffith: 00:05:39

leader? I know, I definitely didn't enjoy managing people.

Lee Griffith: 00:05:43

Carrie-Ann Wade: I know. And we've had this chat before,

Lee Griffith: 00:05:45

haven't we about how comfy we feel in that space? And whether

Lee Griffith: 00:05:48

we found it particularly rewarding or not? And I think

Lee Griffith: 00:05:50

we're probably for a change. We were in different spaces with

Lee Griffith: 00:05:53

that, because I've quite enjoyed managing people, but you're not

Lee Griffith: 00:05:55

so much.

Lee Griffith: 00:05:56

No, but but leadership is is different. And

Lee Griffith: 00:06:00

I do think that you can lead and not manage, you know, I mean,

Lee Griffith: 00:06:05

obviously, your solo solo leaders, I think what what

Lee Griffith: 00:06:09

motivated me to step into that leadership leadership there is

Lee Griffith: 00:06:19

that, I think there are a few things. One, I definitely wanted

Lee Griffith: 00:06:23

to show the strategic importance of the function and so be a

Lee Griffith: 00:06:29

leader in my professional area, within my organization, and

Lee Griffith: 00:06:34

beyond my organization. And maybe we'll touch on this a bit

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later. Because I think sometimes you can be a leader in your

Lee Griffith: 00:06:40

field, and not necessarily leader in your organization, and

Lee Griffith: 00:06:43

the two different things. And I wanted to be part of a change

Lee Griffith: 00:06:49

and make a difference. Absolutely. That that drove me I

Lee Griffith: 00:06:52

didn't necessarily always like what I was seeing at the top.

Lee Griffith: 00:06:56

And was, I think it was the red headedness in me was that I want

Lee Griffith: 00:07:03

to get in there and try and make a difference. And I think that

Lee Griffith: 00:07:06

was also what drove me to join the types of organizations that

Lee Griffith: 00:07:09

I joined, rather than just doing PR in a sales marketing, kind of

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focused organization. But I'm gonna be realistic and honest, I

Lee Griffith: 00:07:21

was very ambitious. And I wanted to be a young director. And I

Lee Griffith: 00:07:27

definitely wanted the money that came with more senior roles. And

Lee Griffith: 00:07:31

so it wasn't just as I wasn't as purist of, oh, I want to be a

Lee Griffith: 00:07:35

leader because I want to do great things. And let's join

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hands and sing songs.

Lee Griffith: 00:07:42

Carrie-Ann Wade: I wanted some of the I wanted some of the

Lee Griffith: 00:07:44

perks that came with the hierarchical leadership power, I

Lee Griffith: 00:07:48

suppose. And I don't think we should ever be ashamed to say

Lee Griffith: 00:07:51

that, because it feels like we say that sometimes with a bit of

Lee Griffith: 00:07:55

like, oh, and we I know, we've had conversations before about

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knowing your worth and pay, particularly in this space where

Lee Griffith: 00:08:02

we feel like, you know, equal pays, or non equal pay is an

Lee Griffith: 00:08:06

issue. But I don't ever think we should shy away from the fact

Lee Griffith: 00:08:10

that we are motivated by things other than that altruistic sense

Lee Griffith: 00:08:14

of doing good for others. So I know it's sometimes feels

Lee Griffith: 00:08:18

awkward to say it, doesn't it, but actually being motivated by

Lee Griffith: 00:08:22

the desire to earn more money to afford a lifestyle that you want

Lee Griffith: 00:08:26

to have, for example, isn't always a bad thing. So So I

Lee Griffith: 00:08:31

think, kudos and appreciate your honesty in that space.

Lee Griffith: 00:08:35

Absolutely. But I think that's that's also where the management

Lee Griffith: 00:08:39

versus leadership thing comes in. Because particularly when we

Lee Griffith: 00:08:43

look at hierarchy, and all of that, because it was a case of,

Lee Griffith: 00:08:49

I could go into a more senior management position to be paid

Lee Griffith: 00:08:53

more. I was probably in a leadership space before I was in

Lee Griffith: 00:08:57

senior management. So it's interesting. And it really

Lee Griffith: 00:09:01

resonated with me what you said about the strategic importance

Lee Griffith: 00:09:04

of a function and obviously having both come from the same

Lee Griffith: 00:09:08

professional background that absolutely it's about really

Lee Griffith: 00:09:11

important to me from the point of view of my own kind of

Lee Griffith: 00:09:14

leadership journey and where I've wanted to go and why I've

Lee Griffith: 00:09:18

wanted to show up in certain spaces, I guess, as a leader, to

Lee Griffith: 00:09:22

almost prove the worth of the function, which still I find

Lee Griffith: 00:09:26

challenging that we have to do, and we still have to do that.

Lee Griffith: 00:09:29

But but that's definitely been a driver, from my point of view

Lee Griffith: 00:09:33

and in terms of leadership. So that definitely resonated with

Lee Griffith: 00:09:38

me. And I think you're right, we probably will go on to talk

Lee Griffith: 00:09:41

about some of that kind of space around. You can be a leader in

Lee Griffith: 00:09:45

your field of expertise without necessarily being a leader in

Lee Griffith: 00:09:49

that hierarchical sense, or maybe even being recompensed in

Lee Griffith: 00:09:52

the way that other leaders might be in your organization for

Lee Griffith: 00:09:56

sure. I guess for me, from my point of view, There was

Lee Griffith: 00:10:00

something about wanting to have an impact for others. And that's

Lee Griffith: 00:10:04

something that's definitely been a driver for me, not just in my

Lee Griffith: 00:10:08

kind of work career, but life in general, like I get, I honestly

Lee Griffith: 00:10:12

get pleasure out of seeing other people achieve and being able to

Lee Griffith: 00:10:15

be part of that support team, if it were to kind of like help

Lee Griffith: 00:10:19

people to do that. So definitely there was something for me and

Lee Griffith: 00:10:23

in believing that being in the leadership space would enable me

Lee Griffith: 00:10:27

to have more impact for others, to push and stretch other people

Lee Griffith: 00:10:32

to achieve their goals, but also to push and stretch myself a bit

Lee Griffith: 00:10:36

as well, I think, and I think we've talked about this before

Lee Griffith: 00:10:39

Lee, but I hadn't necessarily seen that many people like me in

Lee Griffith: 00:10:44

leadership roles early in my career. And when I say like me,

Lee Griffith: 00:10:48

I guess I mean, a female leader who didn't feel the need to be

Lee Griffith: 00:10:53

more masculine in their behavior or approach, and somebody who

Lee Griffith: 00:10:58

was compassionate and good humoured and kind and interested

Lee Griffith: 00:11:02

in the person as much as or if not more so than the process, if

Lee Griffith: 00:11:08

that kind of makes sense. So it felt like there was some

Lee Griffith: 00:11:11

opportunities for me to be able to challenge that and challenge

Lee Griffith: 00:11:15

myself to see if actually, I could operate as a leader, with

Lee Griffith: 00:11:18

my own personality type and kind of behaviors that I have. So I

Lee Griffith: 00:11:23

guess there's also been something for me, as I've

Lee Griffith: 00:11:26

progressed in the leadership space about feeling like I have

Lee Griffith: 00:11:30

received support and guidance to support my career, and actually

Lee Griffith: 00:11:34

being a leader has given me the opportunity to I hope to do the

Lee Griffith: 00:11:37

same for others. And that's felt, I felt a real sense of

Lee Griffith: 00:11:40

responsibility around that, I think in terms of actually

Lee Griffith: 00:11:44

passing that on, and bringing, bringing new people and new

Lee Griffith: 00:11:48

talent forward. So they were just my reflections when I was

Lee Griffith: 00:11:51

thinking about my motivation to lead but absolutely agree with

Lee Griffith: 00:11:55

there was a level of motivation of like, I want to be able to

Lee Griffith: 00:11:58

get a mortgage and buy a house and have a nice life and have a

Lee Griffith: 00:12:02

lovely holiday as well. And actually, quite often, as you

Lee Griffith: 00:12:04

say, as a sort of promotional, linear hierarchical route kind

Lee Griffith: 00:12:09

of leads to that which might put you in leadership positions. So

Lee Griffith: 00:12:13

yeah, hopefully, some of what we've said is resonated with

Lee Griffith: 00:12:17

people listening. And I'd be really intrigued to know from,

Lee Griffith: 00:12:19

from listeners about kind of what's motivating them to be in

Lee Griffith: 00:12:23

that leadership space, or potentially wants to be a leader

Lee Griffith: 00:12:26

in the future. So DMS on the socials, get in touch via the

Lee Griffith: 00:12:32

email if you want to share some of your stories, because I would

Lee Griffith: 00:12:35

be really intrigued to hear that. Sure. So it's interesting,

Lee Griffith: 00:12:39

because my second question without actually knowing where

Lee Griffith: 00:12:43

some of your journey and your experience was going to take us

Lee Griffith: 00:12:46

was around that bit about promotion, and that hierarchical

Lee Griffith: 00:12:52

kind of approach to leadership, and you know, both of our own

Lee Griffith: 00:12:55

stories have got some of that in there, being more sick being in

Lee Griffith: 00:13:00

more senior positions, like climbing that linear ladder. So

Lee Griffith: 00:13:05

I guess the first part of my question is, do we feel that

Lee Griffith: 00:13:10

kind of leadership is too focused on that hierarchy? And

Lee Griffith: 00:13:13

maybe that's striving to get to the top? Is that still a thing

Lee Griffith: 00:13:18

in the leadership? Well, do you think they,

Lee Griffith: 00:13:22

I think it is, I think if you look at it from an

Lee Griffith: 00:13:25

organizational view, then yes, people see it as a hierarchical,

Lee Griffith: 00:13:32

whether you cut it at a certain paygrade, or a certain job title

Lee Griffith: 00:13:38

or whatever, there is still a culture of people in an

Lee Griffith: 00:13:41

organization that they will see as their top leaders, senior

Lee Griffith: 00:13:45

leaders, whatever, regardless of whether those individuals see

Lee Griffith: 00:13:48

themselves as leaders or not. And, and I reflect on when I was

Lee Griffith: 00:13:53

in my corporate life, and we did a leadership development program

Lee Griffith: 00:13:58

with people who are of a certain band in and higher. We used to

Lee Griffith: 00:14:03

ask that question of, you know, who in the room sees themselves

Lee Griffith: 00:14:07

as leader to get a gauge and it was, and it was really

Lee Griffith: 00:14:10

interesting. Not that many people did yet probably because

Lee Griffith: 00:14:17

of their positional power, the organization, certainly the

Lee Griffith: 00:14:21

board would have seen these people as leaders because they

Lee Griffith: 00:14:24

had position and influence, and they were setting direction and

Lee Griffith: 00:14:28

all of that kind of stuff. But the individuals, the vast

Lee Griffith: 00:14:33

majority didn't see themselves in that role as leader. So I do

Lee Griffith: 00:14:37

think it's a really interesting, nuanced organization versus

Lee Griffith: 00:14:45

person perspective. Absolutely.

Lee Griffith: 00:14:47

Carrie-Ann Wade: And and we've talked before as well, haven't

Lee Griffith: 00:14:49

we, about how comfortable people are as identify and as leaders,

Lee Griffith: 00:14:54

so they might be very comfortable to identify by their

Lee Griffith: 00:14:56

job title, which potentially might be a very In year, one

Lee Griffith: 00:15:00

director of head of whatever that job title might be, is easy

Lee Griffith: 00:15:05

to say. But it seems more challenging in some respects for

Lee Griffith: 00:15:09

people to say, I'm a senior leader in this organization. And

Lee Griffith: 00:15:13

I don't know whether that's about perhaps the perceived

Lee Griffith: 00:15:16

level of accountability that comes with being a leader versus

Lee Griffith: 00:15:21

being a, maybe it's back to that point about leader versus

Lee Griffith: 00:15:25

manager, Senior Manager in your in your profession, that maybe

Lee Griffith: 00:15:30

that feels less of a big responsibility and burden on

Lee Griffith: 00:15:33

your shoulders, I don't know. But I have noticed that that

Lee Griffith: 00:15:37

people struggle to kind of talk about themselves a lot as

Lee Griffith: 00:15:41

leaders, even though they are in what would be perceived to be

Lee Griffith: 00:15:44

senior leadership positions, unless

Lee Griffith: 00:15:46

they think it's unless they think it's implied

Lee Griffith: 00:15:49

by their job title. So they don't feel you know,

Lee Griffith: 00:15:53

Carrie-Ann Wade: they don't want to do the depth because, like

Lee Griffith: 00:15:56

you say, putting your high heels on and like maybe being a bit

Lee Griffith: 00:15:59

show off it. But so there's just there's so much in that isn't

Lee Griffith: 00:16:02

there, and it's back to your point about often, there's

Lee Griffith: 00:16:04

something about person versus position that doesn't

Lee Griffith: 00:16:07

necessarily always align, perhaps,

Lee Griffith: 00:16:11

I think there's something about we look at it

Lee Griffith: 00:16:14

from an individual perspective, I think whether you see yourself

Lee Griffith: 00:16:19

as a leader or not, probably also goes back to what you see

Lee Griffith: 00:16:23

as your purpose and the intent of what it is you're trying to

Lee Griffith: 00:16:26

do. So some people just wants to do that job because of what they

Lee Griffith: 00:16:33

get from the job, whether it's pay convenience, or whatever,

Lee Griffith: 00:16:38

some people go into a job, because they want to make

Lee Griffith: 00:16:42

change, they've got that talk of that fire in the belly, that you

Lee Griffith: 00:16:46

know, they've seen an injustice, they want to make something

Lee Griffith: 00:16:48

happen. They want to show up as a specialist in their area and

Lee Griffith: 00:16:52

excelling. What it is they do sometimes it's it's really

Lee Griffith: 00:16:55

complex, and it's a mismatch of all of those things. So I think

Lee Griffith: 00:16:59

probably that sense of, do I feel like I'm leading others,

Lee Griffith: 00:17:03

and I'm setting direction and all that probably comes down to

Lee Griffith: 00:17:06

what's my, what's my purpose in my tech, my intent into the day,

Lee Griffith: 00:17:10

Carrie-Ann Wade: and we did discuss about being clear, clear

Lee Griffith: 00:17:13

on your purposes, as a leader in that being really important. So

Lee Griffith: 00:17:18

you've touched on this, sorry, you're gonna say something?

Lee Griffith: 00:17:20

Well, so say Does it matter? Like,

Lee Griffith: 00:17:22

Carrie-Ann Wade: Well, I'm just about to ask you a question a

Lee Griffith: 00:17:25

little bit like that around weather matters, I guess more

Lee Griffith: 00:17:30

linked to the conversation we've had about being an expert in

Lee Griffith: 00:17:33

your field versus being in a hierarchical position of power

Lee Griffith: 00:17:38

in your organization. So I wanted to explore with you

Lee Griffith: 00:17:41

exactly that, can you be a leader in a different way? And

Lee Griffith: 00:17:45

can you be a leader without that kind of linear ladder climb to

Lee Griffith: 00:17:49

sort of positions of what we perceive to be authority? So we

Lee Griffith: 00:17:53

have talked about being experts in your field voices that other

Lee Griffith: 00:17:57

people respect and listen to? So I guess you've already started

Lee Griffith: 00:18:02

to explain some of that. Is that possible? Is it possible to be a

Lee Griffith: 00:18:06

leader without having that kind of job? Title slash position of

Lee Griffith: 00:18:10

power in your organization? Yeah. That's a good question.

Lee Griffith: 00:18:17

That didn't lie. Yes, I guess it's carry on. Even.

Lee Griffith: 00:18:23

So I think it depends on whether you are

Lee Griffith: 00:18:27

wanting to be clear in defining yourself as a leader or is a

Lee Griffith: 00:18:31

leadership something that others define you by? And interesting.

Lee Griffith: 00:18:37

And is it a case of a leader is someone that takes people with

Lee Griffith: 00:18:45

them has vision and all that, so you don't need to necessarily

Lee Griffith: 00:18:48

have positional power, we did that power episode where we

Lee Griffith: 00:18:51

talked about all the different types of power, you might be

Lee Griffith: 00:18:53

able to utilize as a leader. And I suppose each of those, if you

Lee Griffith: 00:18:59

do utilize them, shows leadership in one way or

Lee Griffith: 00:19:03

another. So I think there is, we even know, if you are trying to

Lee Griffith: 00:19:13

make change happen in your organization, you go to people

Lee Griffith: 00:19:16

who are able to influence who are able to inspire or who are

Lee Griffith: 00:19:20

able to take people, they won't necessarily be the department

Lee Griffith: 00:19:24

heads, they won't necessarily be the most senior directors in

Lee Griffith: 00:19:28

that hierarchical sense. But they will be the people who

Lee Griffith: 00:19:32

might have air of those that are likely to

Lee Griffith: 00:19:36

Carrie-Ann Wade: challenge the change. Or they might be the

Lee Griffith: 00:19:39

ones who just have a great energy about them. And we'll go

Lee Griffith: 00:19:43

Go get him. Let's do it kind of attitude, and that's who you

Lee Griffith: 00:19:47

want around you and all of those leadership qualities. So I think

Lee Griffith: 00:19:51

it's I don't think this is a clear cut one. No, and it is

Lee Griffith: 00:19:54

that point, isn't it? Whether you are intending in your

Lee Griffith: 00:19:57

actions to position yourself in some sort of leadership It role,

Lee Griffith: 00:20:01

regardless of as you say, whether or not that's recognized

Lee Griffith: 00:20:04

by by what your actual job is in the organization, or whether or

Lee Griffith: 00:20:08

not that leadership has almost been thrust upon you, because

Lee Griffith: 00:20:12

other people see you as a trusted person whose guidance

Lee Griffith: 00:20:15

they want to take whose footsteps they want to follow

Lee Griffith: 00:20:18

in, you know, however, we want to describe that. And sometimes

Lee Griffith: 00:20:21

you might have the perfect mix of both of those. And I guess

Lee Griffith: 00:20:25

sometimes, it's one or the other, I guess the challenge

Lee Griffith: 00:20:29

comes if you are intentionally trying to position yourself as a

Lee Griffith: 00:20:32

leader, but actually other people see you as one, then

Lee Griffith: 00:20:35

actually, are you? And I think my answer would be no. Like, it

Lee Griffith: 00:20:39

may be by self defined title, but not by actual action. So

Lee Griffith: 00:20:44

that is quite interesting. And in response to the last

Lee Griffith: 00:20:47

question, you talked a lot about those personal drivers that you

Lee Griffith: 00:20:51

might have to want to be a leader, whether that is, you

Lee Griffith: 00:20:54

know, the fire in your belly to make a change to make difference

Lee Griffith: 00:20:57

to people, whether there's a very specific agenda that you

Lee Griffith: 00:21:01

want to be known as the expert in? Because you're interested in

Lee Griffith: 00:21:04

that space? And, and I guess, well, we would all love to be

Lee Griffith: 00:21:08

completely altruistic and about the greater good. I was just

Lee Griffith: 00:21:12

wondering if you're one of those leaders somewhere who isn't

Lee Griffith: 00:21:16

getting the recompense because they're not in a defined

Lee Griffith: 00:21:19

leadership role in an organization? I mean, what is

Lee Griffith: 00:21:23

the reward for you in that space? As a leader? Why Why

Lee Griffith: 00:21:26

would you be showing up there?

Lee Griffith: 00:21:28

I'm struggling to come with a clear answer,

Lee Griffith: 00:21:32

because I do think it is, if you aren't, if you aren't doing it,

Lee Griffith: 00:21:38

because you want it as a pay outcome, let's say for example,

Lee Griffith: 00:21:43

there will always be something. So I'm thinking about when I was

Lee Griffith: 00:21:47

in my early stages of my career, and I was the most senior person

Lee Griffith: 00:21:52

in my area of expertise as it were, but I wasn't from a pay

Lee Griffith: 00:21:57

perspective, from a hierarchy perspective, I didn't have that

Lee Griffith: 00:22:05

I wouldn't have been seen as a leader, I wouldn't have probably

Lee Griffith: 00:22:07

been round the table, if they said, Oh, we're going to take

Lee Griffith: 00:22:10

everyone and put them in one of these development programs, for

Lee Griffith: 00:22:12

example. But I had influence. And I was able to demonstrate my

Lee Griffith: 00:22:20

expertise, because I was the only one with that knowledge

Lee Griffith: 00:22:25

and, and understanding and got in front of the people that it

Lee Griffith: 00:22:29

matters. So for me, I was able to demonstrate leadership in my

Lee Griffith: 00:22:32

area, I was able to influence what some of the senior leaders

Lee Griffith: 00:22:35

were doing. And even though I wasn't a senior leader, myself,

Lee Griffith: 00:22:39

that was the outcome I was seeking. I was I wanted that

Lee Griffith: 00:22:42

strategic impact, I wanted them to take my area seriously.

Lee Griffith: 00:22:46

Carrie-Ann Wade: And I think that's a really interesting

Lee Griffith: 00:22:47

point to cover. And I guess there's a slight aside, I have

Lee Griffith: 00:22:50

actually had a couple of recent conversations and, and talking

Lee Griffith: 00:22:54

about, as we did at the start trying to prove the strategic

Lee Griffith: 00:22:58

importance of our own function, where I have had conversations

Lee Griffith: 00:23:03

with people who say exactly your point, I was the most senior

Lee Griffith: 00:23:06

communicator in my organization, or I am at, but I'm nowhere near

Lee Griffith: 00:23:11

as senior as the people that I'm expected to work with on a very

Lee Griffith: 00:23:15

regular basis, and kind of feeling that difference in

Lee Griffith: 00:23:20

positional power, I guess, when they're showing up for meetings,

Lee Griffith: 00:23:23

and they're in spaces where they're working with those

Lee Griffith: 00:23:26

people and kind of questioning themselves. Like why would

Lee Griffith: 00:23:29

people listen to me because they're all directors or heads

Lee Griffith: 00:23:33

up, and I'm just a, which I hate. I hate that kind of I'm

Lee Griffith: 00:23:36

just do this term. But that's for another conversation. And so

Lee Griffith: 00:23:40

I guess it is just quite interesting, isn't it about how

Lee Griffith: 00:23:43

you then do exactly as you've said, you've done which is just

Lee Griffith: 00:23:46

show up with intent to be strategic and prove your level

Lee Griffith: 00:23:49

of expertise and add that value into the space. Recognizing but

Lee Griffith: 00:23:55

not getting too hung up on the fact that your physical position

Lee Griffith: 00:23:58

in terms of your job isn't as senior as the people that you're

Lee Griffith: 00:24:01

working with. And I guess, for some people there, there might

Lee Griffith: 00:24:04

be an argument to prove that actually, you are operating at

Lee Griffith: 00:24:07

that level. And maybe you should be rewarded as such. But that's

Lee Griffith: 00:24:11

not always where we find ourselves luckily.

Lee Griffith: 00:24:15

And I also recognized that I needed to

Lee Griffith: 00:24:19

broaden my influence and my areas of responsibility if I

Lee Griffith: 00:24:26

wanted to be seen as an equal and to move up that hierarchical

Lee Griffith: 00:24:30

ladder. So there was a recognition that I wasn't going

Lee Griffith: 00:24:32

to have rewards. As we talked about, there wasn't that route

Lee Griffith: 00:24:40

up there for me if I stayed in my single specialist area I had

Lee Griffith: 00:24:45

to hire to broaden that out and that I believe was a benefit to

Lee Griffith: 00:24:49

the organization and to me personally. That's why I can get

Lee Griffith: 00:24:53

a bit when people get hung up on we need this title at this level

Lee Griffith: 00:24:57

because that isn't what we're striving for. Yeah,

Lee Griffith: 00:25:00

Carrie-Ann Wade: absolutely. Thank you. That's really, really

Lee Griffith: 00:25:03

helpful, I think and leads a little bit on to the next

Lee Griffith: 00:25:07

question for me, when you are in a predefined leadership

Lee Griffith: 00:25:11

position, there are deliverables that you will be expected to

Lee Griffith: 00:25:16

kind of work on around accountability and performance.

Lee Griffith: 00:25:20

But again, that's very much about being in a sort of gifted

Lee Griffith: 00:25:23

leadership position in an organization that has a job

Lee Griffith: 00:25:26

title. We've talked about leaders not always needing to be

Lee Griffith: 00:25:30

in those senior positions in an organization to actually be seen

Lee Griffith: 00:25:35

as a leader or operate as a leader. So do we need to define

Lee Griffith: 00:25:39

what we mean by leadership? Because clearly, no one size

Lee Griffith: 00:25:43

fits all? Or, you know, how do we start to have those

Lee Griffith: 00:25:47

conversations to make leadership less about being the person at

Lee Griffith: 00:25:51

the top of the organization all the time?

Lee Griffith: 00:25:55

I'm not sure. We need to redefine what leadership

Lee Griffith: 00:25:58

is, I think the lens of which we talk about hierarchy, and

Lee Griffith: 00:26:02

leadership is just one element of it. But I think when people

Lee Griffith: 00:26:07

describe what leadership is to, then that's when you see the

Lee Griffith: 00:26:12

variety and very rarely, when people describe what leadership

Lee Griffith: 00:26:16

means to them, do they actually reference hierarchy. And so I

Lee Griffith: 00:26:22

think it's something that we perhaps impose in our view of,

Lee Griffith: 00:26:29

particularly, again, this organizational versus person

Lee Griffith: 00:26:32

view. But I think when you when you boil it down to what do the

Lee Griffith: 00:26:37

person on the street, or the person in your organization,

Lee Griffith: 00:26:39

when you say, who's a leader? What does good leadership look

Lee Griffith: 00:26:42

like? They'll give you values and qualities and attributes.

Lee Griffith: 00:26:48

They don't say, oh, it's

Lee Griffith: 00:26:50

Carrie-Ann Wade: the chief executive or whatever. Yeah, so

Lee Griffith: 00:26:53

I'm not sure we do need to redefine it. For me, I

Lee Griffith: 00:26:57

think I like to talk about this impactful leadership. So yes,

Lee Griffith: 00:27:02

you might be a leader in your title or the type of power you

Lee Griffith: 00:27:07

have. But if you're not having the right impact, then you're

Lee Griffith: 00:27:12

perhaps not seen as a leader in my eyes. So I think that's

Lee Griffith: 00:27:16

that's the key, whether you've got the vision, and you can take

Lee Griffith: 00:27:22

people with you, whether you build trust, whether you live

Lee Griffith: 00:27:26

your values and act of integrity, whether you

Lee Griffith: 00:27:30

communicate well and engage and all of those kinds of things.

Lee Griffith: 00:27:34

Those are the leadership qualities that people will

Lee Griffith: 00:27:37

reference when they talk about what good leadership looks like.

Lee Griffith: 00:27:41

And so I guess I bring it back to that point, and maybe

Lee Griffith: 00:27:45

rephrase the question. That was the theme of this episode. So

Lee Griffith: 00:27:50

Carrie-Ann Wade: we asked is leadership for you, and we've

Lee Griffith: 00:27:53

kind of talked about doesn't have to be about the position

Lee Griffith: 00:27:56

you have in the organization. But I guess then what's in it

Lee Griffith: 00:28:00

for you to be a leader? It isn't about that positional power. And

Lee Griffith: 00:28:05

obviously, you and I are very much about the fact that there

Lee Griffith: 00:28:07

are all those other aspects to being a leader, what's in it for

Lee Griffith: 00:28:11

you as a person to want to step into that leadership space?

Lee Griffith: 00:28:15

Like, what are you going to gain from positioning yourself as a

Lee Griffith: 00:28:19

leader? I guess, I'm hesitating,

Lee Griffith: 00:28:22

because do leaders think in a way that is what's to

Lee Griffith: 00:28:29

gain from this, and I'm not sure. I'm sure if people will

Lee Griffith: 00:28:36

meet. But if we look at it through the lens of I want to be

Lee Griffith: 00:28:38

a senior manager and I want the hierarchy in power. I think they

Lee Griffith: 00:28:42

probably do look more at what's the reward and gain for doing

Lee Griffith: 00:28:45

this. But I'm just I'm not sure whether people who go I want to

Lee Griffith: 00:28:52

be a lead or thinking. I think their thing is I want to this is

Lee Griffith: 00:28:58

an outcome that I'm seeking to achieve. This is a difference I

Lee Griffith: 00:29:02

want to make. And those are the things that I tend to hear I

Lee Griffith: 00:29:04

want to make things. You I want to kind of help communicate as

Lee Griffith: 00:29:09

fries. That's your that's the impact and outcome that you're

Lee Griffith: 00:29:13

seeking in the leadership that you offer, for example.

Lee Griffith: 00:29:18

Carrie-Ann Wade: So I guess, yeah, I guess maybe gain is not

Lee Griffith: 00:29:21

the right word, then I guess it's what's the personal reward

Lee Griffith: 00:29:24

for you because being a leader is hard. It's hard work often in

Lee Griffith: 00:29:27

that space. So what's the reward? And I guess what we're

Lee Griffith: 00:29:30

saying is the reward of putting yourself out there and

Lee Griffith: 00:29:34

developing and growing yourself and positioning yourself as a

Lee Griffith: 00:29:37

leader is to have that impact that you want to have deliver on

Lee Griffith: 00:29:42

that purpose that's really driving you in terms of you've

Lee Griffith: 00:29:45

said it that fire in your belly, delivering a change being

Lee Griffith: 00:29:49

impactful. You know, moving something forward to towards a

Lee Griffith: 00:29:53

more positive solution, whatever that might be. That's the thing

Lee Griffith: 00:29:58

that drives you to want to be elite he'd, rather than anything

Lee Griffith: 00:30:01

else around whether you've got the right job title, or what

Lee Griffith: 00:30:04

your pay grade might be how other people potentially are

Lee Griffith: 00:30:08

perceiving you or not that actually what your personal

Lee Griffith: 00:30:12

reward is for wanting to be a leader, if you're considering

Lee Griffith: 00:30:16

that is that you are having an impact or making a change in the

Lee Griffith: 00:30:20

space that's most important to you. Does that feel like a good

Lee Griffith: 00:30:25

kind of way? Describe it. Yeah.

Lee Griffith: 00:30:27

And I think it's okay. Not to want to be a leader

Lee Griffith: 00:30:32

as well. I think if you're in that positional power of

Lee Griffith: 00:30:37

authority, where others expect you to be a leader, then you do

Lee Griffith: 00:30:41

need to do some work to figure out how people around you are

Lee Griffith: 00:30:45

going to get what they need. So that vision direction, blah,

Lee Griffith: 00:30:49

blah, blah. But I think otherwise, if you know more

Lee Griffith: 00:30:57

generally, if you haven't got that passion, or you haven't got

Lee Griffith: 00:31:02

that drive to want to make change, you don't need to worry

Lee Griffith: 00:31:06

about am I a leader or not? Because I do think it's more

Lee Griffith: 00:31:10

about what what other people see you as what you title yourself.

Lee Griffith: 00:31:15

Absolutely.

Lee Griffith: 00:31:16

Carrie-Ann Wade: And you've talked a little bit about this,

Lee Griffith: 00:31:18

and it was just slightly off piste. But I thought, an

Lee Griffith: 00:31:22

interesting part of this conversation. But you know,

Lee Griffith: 00:31:25

you've talked about like, if you are a leader, or you maybe even

Lee Griffith: 00:31:29

have that built in desire and drive to lead and be a leader,

Lee Griffith: 00:31:34

what happens when you do reach, like the most senior leadership

Lee Griffith: 00:31:38

position you might be able to find yourself in? Is that the

Lee Griffith: 00:31:42

point at which your leadership growth stops? Or is there more

Lee Griffith: 00:31:47

to be achieved? So we've said, it's not necessarily about being

Lee Griffith: 00:31:50

a CEO, or being a director of x. But actually, if that is part of

Lee Griffith: 00:31:55

your career trajectory, and your drive and ambition forward to

Lee Griffith: 00:32:00

grow and develop as a leader? When you get there, then then

Lee Griffith: 00:32:03

like, what happens?

Lee Griffith: 00:32:07

I think I don't think it's a question of whether

Lee Griffith: 00:32:10

you stay being a leader or or not, I think you probably the

Lee Griffith: 00:32:15

types of questions is, do I stay in this post? Or not? Do I go on

Lee Griffith: 00:32:20

to do something else in somewhere else? Or does my

Lee Griffith: 00:32:24

leadership change? I think each organization has its own

Lee Griffith: 00:32:28

challenge. And so even if you have made it to the top in an

Lee Griffith: 00:32:33

organization, you can go to somewhere else, and it will feel

Lee Griffith: 00:32:38

completely different. Or if you don't want to get to the top but

Lee Griffith: 00:32:41

you want to be a leader in your field, then it might be there's

Lee Griffith: 00:32:45

a particular element of an area of work that you're really

Lee Griffith: 00:32:49

interested in, you want to take forward in some way. And so you,

Lee Griffith: 00:32:53

you know, you that's where you put your your interest and your

Lee Griffith: 00:32:57

energy into that. So I think there's ways that you can,

Lee Griffith: 00:33:01

you've got to find what's going to float your boat and keep you

Lee Griffith: 00:33:04

motivated. And it goes back to that episode that we did around

Lee Griffith: 00:33:06

motivation. How do you stay motivated? And so I don't think

Lee Griffith: 00:33:10

it's a case of do I step away from being a leader? I think

Lee Griffith: 00:33:13

it's about do I stay where I am? Or do I need to find a different

Lee Griffith: 00:33:18

challenge in a different guise?

Lee Griffith: 00:33:20

Carrie-Ann Wade: And I think it's about for me that kind of

Lee Griffith: 00:33:22

question or questions about, you know, how much of this is about

Lee Griffith: 00:33:26

your own growth as a leader, and that might be then about, okay,

Lee Griffith: 00:33:30

I need to step away in the this for another cause or in another

Lee Griffith: 00:33:34

organization? And how much of it might actually be about okay,

Lee Griffith: 00:33:37

I've, I've reached this space here now. But actually, is this

Lee Griffith: 00:33:42

organization on a growth trajectory? Does this

Lee Griffith: 00:33:45

organization need to change or shift focus in some way? And I

Lee Griffith: 00:33:48

guess it's about understanding the two of those to kind of

Lee Griffith: 00:33:51

know, where you might be the best fit in terms of really

Lee Griffith: 00:33:55

being able to have that impact that you always talk about as a

Lee Griffith: 00:33:58

leader? Yeah,

Lee Griffith: 00:33:59

yeah, absolutely. You you. You mentioned the word

Lee Griffith: 00:34:02

one size doesn't fit all.

Lee Griffith: 00:34:04

Carrie-Ann Wade: You didn't actually mention it in that way.

Lee Griffith: 00:34:06

But but that's what we were getting that we're getting one

Lee Griffith: 00:34:09

size doesn't fit all. It's not a one size fits all, kind of a

Lee Griffith: 00:34:12

great thing. And

Lee Griffith: 00:34:14

so I think that's that's part of it. You

Lee Griffith: 00:34:16

understanding what, who you are as a leader, and what you offer,

Lee Griffith: 00:34:20

and what you bring, will determine where you go next.

Lee Griffith: 00:34:24

Because you're you're not going to be all things for all

Lee Griffith: 00:34:27

seasons.

Lee Griffith: 00:34:30

Carrie-Ann Wade: Like, love the little frown you did that does

Lee Griffith: 00:34:32

make sense. By the way, in case you were wondering if you've

Lee Griffith: 00:34:35

thrown elitism into the mix at that point. So it was sort of

Lee Griffith: 00:34:40

conversation and debate hasn't put people off, wanting to be in

Lee Griffith: 00:34:46

that leadership space. And we're assuming that people might be

Lee Griffith: 00:34:49

asking the question of themselves about whether

Lee Griffith: 00:34:52

leadership's for them. I guess it feels like we've got to that

Lee Griffith: 00:34:55

time in the conversation where we might want to give some

Lee Griffith: 00:34:59

practical advice or tips to people? So, and it doesn't have

Lee Griffith: 00:35:03

to be one I've said one, but it might be more than one Li. But

Lee Griffith: 00:35:07

what one action? Do you think that people could take away from

Lee Griffith: 00:35:12

having listened to this conversation to consider in

Lee Griffith: 00:35:15

terms of whether they want to step into or stay in that

Lee Griffith: 00:35:19

leadership space and determine whether leadership is for them

Lee Griffith: 00:35:22

or not?

Lee Griffith: 00:35:25

I think it's less than focus less on the word

Lee Griffith: 00:35:30

leadership and focus more on your why go back to what is it

Lee Griffith: 00:35:35

you're trying to achieve? And why you trying to achieve it?

Lee Griffith: 00:35:38

And I think having a clarity in that answer will determine where

Lee Griffith: 00:35:43

you go on in your career. And whether that's leadership or

Lee Griffith: 00:35:47

not, I love that it's

Lee Griffith: 00:35:49

Carrie-Ann Wade: really similar to what I thought about which

Lee Griffith: 00:35:51

was about so you've said why it was about purpose. So what's

Lee Griffith: 00:35:56

your purpose and your motivation? And that will help

Lee Griffith: 00:35:59

determine whether being in that leadership space is the right

Lee Griffith: 00:36:02

way to deliver on that purpose and motivation or not, and it

Lee Griffith: 00:36:06

might not be and that's absolutely okay, too. So how

Lee Griffith: 00:36:11

we're completely aligned, but there was definitely one action

Lee Griffith: 00:36:14

people could take away from this episode. So the How to is to go

Lee Griffith: 00:36:18

away and think about that question if you're considering

Lee Griffith: 00:36:22

whether leadership is for you or not, and to be absolutely okay

Lee Griffith: 00:36:25

with the fact that it might not be. It's not for everyone. Is

Lee Griffith: 00:36:29

it? So? Interesting. Thank you so much for your insight and

Lee Griffith: 00:36:34

challenge in this episode in terms of getting us to think a

Lee Griffith: 00:36:39

bit differently about that more personalized, individual

Lee Griffith: 00:36:42

question about whether leadership.

Lee Griffith: 00:36:46

Thank you. It's lovely talking to you. Thanks

Lee Griffith: 00:36:51

for listening. Don't forget to hit follow to make sure you get

Lee Griffith: 00:36:54

the next episode. And if today's discussion resonated, please

Lee Griffith: 00:36:57

leave a review on Apple podcasts.

Lee Griffith: 00:37:00

Carrie-Ann Wade: We also have our substack community where you

Lee Griffith: 00:37:02

can get behind the scenes info, Ask Us Anything session and

Lee Griffith: 00:37:06

build your network with like minded leaders. Visit how to

Lee Griffith: 00:37:09

take the lead.substack.com To find out more. And if

Lee Griffith: 00:37:12

you want to work with us to challenge and change

Lee Griffith: 00:37:14

leadership in your organization. Get in touch by dropping us an

Lee Griffith: 00:37:17

email how to take the lead@gmail.com or DM us on the

Lee Griffith: 00:37:20

socials. Until next week. Get out there

Lee Griffith: 00:37:23

Carrie-Ann Wade: and take the lead