Dear Listener, welcome to the final episode of our Dating Skills Series! In this installment, we focus on neurodivergent dating skills, offering insights into how autistics, ADHDers, highly sensitive people, and otherwise neurodivergent people may express affection, flirt, and show romantic interest. Whether you’re neurodivergent and struggling with dating, or a neurotypical crushing on a neurodivergent cutie, this episode is packed with valuable information.

Join us as we explore key neurodivergent dating skills, including:

1. Story Swapping: Understand how neurodivergent individuals might share stories to connect and show empathy.

2. Managing Stimulation: Learn strategies for adjusting the sensory environment on dates to feel more comfortable and present.

3. Cooperative Overlap: Discover how some neurodivergent people may interrupt out of enthusiasm, showing they’re engaged in the conversation.

4. Info Dumping: Find out why delving into a favorite topic deeply can be a sign of interest and connection.

5. Focus on Verbal Communication: Explore why direct language and less emphasis on tone or nonverbal cues might be the norm in neurodivergent communication.

We also delve into how autistic people might express romantic love, the role of noncompliance as an adaptive skill, and the importance of creating authentic connections without masking. By the end of this episode, you’ll gain a deeper appreciation of neurodivergent dating skills and practical strategies for building meaningful relationships. Tune in and learn how to connect with your neurodivergent date in ways that honor their unique communication style (and fight ableism, too, yay!).

Key Takeaways

00:00 - Intro

01:33 - Understanding Neurodivergence

04:31 - Why learn neurodivergent dating skills?

13:24 - #1: Story swapping

15:58 - #2: Manage Stimulation on Dates

20:17 - #3: Cooperative Overlap

24:26 - #4: Info dumping about special interests

27:00 - #5: Focus on verbal communication

29:23 - #6: Honest and direct language

31:02 - #7: Focus on meaning of words

34:02 - #8: Skip the small talk

35:42 - #9: Ask lots of questions in pursuit of accuracy

38:08 - #10: Parallel play

40:14 - #11: Non-compliance

43:08 - Recap

Resources and links

For full show notes with links, visit relationshipcenter.com/podcast

Embrace Autism

Unmasking Autism: Discovering the New Faces of Neurodiversity, By Devon Price, PhD

Neurowild

Have a question or comment? Email us at podcast@relationshipcenter.com. We love hearing from you!

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From the Relationship Center, I'm psychotherapist, couples counselor, and

2

dating coach Jessica Engle, and this is I

Love You Too, a show about how to create

3

and sustain meaningful relationships.

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Josh: I'm dating and relationship

coach Josh Van Vliet.

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Welcome to part four of our

four part dating skills series.

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This episode is all about

neurodivergent dating skills.

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We're so happy you're here and please

remember that this show is not a

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substitute for a relationship with a

licensed mental health professional.

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Hello and welcome dear listener

to the last part of our four

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part dating skills series.

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If you missed any of the

earlier parts, you may want to

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go back and check those out.

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In part one, we went into

positive nonverbal communication.

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Part two, we explored Uh, ideas for

having juicy conversations, and in part

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three, we dove into building intimacy.

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And for our final part in this dating

skills series, we're gonna be talking

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all about neurodivergent dating skills.

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And we'll get into what we mean

by neurodivergent in a moment, as

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well as why we're talking about

neurodivergent dating skills.

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Jessica: Yes, and before we do

that, if you love our show, dear

21

listener, will you please leave us a

rating and review in Apple Podcasts?

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While you're there, hit subscribe

so you never miss an episode.

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Okay, so let's dive in.

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Josh: Let's do it.

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So first off, neurodivergent, what do

we mean when we say neurodivergent?

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Jessica: Right, so neurodivergent refers

to a mind that's different from the norm.

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So a neurodivergent mind might be an

autistic one, an ADHD er mind, one that

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has dyslexia or obsessive compulsive

disorder, things like sensory processing

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disorder, anxiety disorders or depression.

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So really anything that prevents that

mind from acting in the way that society

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has deemed is typical or expected.

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People who are neurotypical.

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do fall within what society

expects typically in terms of their

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behaviors or how they see the world.

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And they don't tend to face the

same kind of challenges with social

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communication or learning or behavior

that neurodivergent individuals might.

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I think it's really important to

emphasize here that our world is

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really set up as a neurotypical world.

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So, in school you're expected to

sit for long periods of time without

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fidgeting to be able to focus and to

be able to shift your focus easily,

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to be able to get assignments done.

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And not all minds do that.

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Um, and I really want this episode

to be an encouragement for us to

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reframe neurodivergence as not

a bad thing, just a thing that

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doesn't fit what society expects.

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Josh: I think that's a great, great frame

for this episode because It is so easy.

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I mean, I think at least you and I grew

up in an era where things like ADHD

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was seen as there's something wrong

with you, like the kids who have ADHD,

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they're like the problem children.

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And it's so not true.

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And I think the more that I have learned

about neurodivergence and the different

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ways brains work, it's like these can be

incredible gifts and sometimes it makes

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it hard to function in a society that has

been set up for folks with neurotypical.

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Jessica: That's right.

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And you will see that influence of

neurotypical standards within the

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dating world and within dating advice.

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So a lot of the advice out there about

how to connect with another person on

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a date, really reflects this kind of

rigid standard of, well, you should

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be able to take turns listening.

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For example, you should really be able

to focus on the other person's experience

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without, you know, story swapping.

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We'll get into that a little bit later.

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And it's really unfortunate because there

are so many Singles out there who are

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neurodivergent, who are wonderful people

and partners who aren't necessarily

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being given the message that they're

fine just the way that they are.

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And that the people who are

interacting with them may need to

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learn how to see what they're doing

as actually quite socially skilled.

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Just different.

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Josh: I wonder if that is a good segue

into why are we talking about this because

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I think we're starting to tilt into that.

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Jessica: Yeah.

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Josh: That it's not just for the folks who

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Jessica: Right.

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I'm really thinking of this episode

actually as less for those who are

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neurodivergent and more for those

who are more neurotypical or expect

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neurotypical interactions, who

really could benefit from learning.

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Really, it's kind of like

learning a different language.

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Let's talk about the

double empathy problem.

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Josh: What's the double empathy problem?

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Jessica: So this is something

that was developed by Dr.

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Damian Milton, and it really suggests

that communication breakdowns

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between, and this was really focused

on autistic and holistic individuals

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or non autistic individuals.

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There's some research that showed

that autistics, communicating

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with autistics, showed high

satisfaction in their interactions.

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Elistics, or non autistics, communicating

with other elistics, high satisfaction.

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And autistics with elistics,

lower satisfaction.

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Josh: On both sides, right?

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Jessica: On both sides.

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Mm hmm.

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And so, this double empathy problem really

suggests that problems in communication,

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they really stem from, like, mutual

misunderstandings and a social mismatch.

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Different neurotypes, essentially,

rather than it being rooted in the

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deficits of autistic individuals, which

is typically how things are framed.

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Right.

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There's a lot of material out there about

your autistic partner, speaking to the

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neurotypical, needs to learn these things.

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Mm hmm.

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Or lots of things like social skills

training will emphasize, well, if

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you're autistic or ADHD or anything

like that, you really need to learn

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how to act like a neurotypical.

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When in truth, both sides share

responsibility in improving their

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communication, um, by learning

one another's perspectives

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and ways of interacting.

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Josh: I think it's so affirming of

different people's ways of being in

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the world that we're taking out of this

frame of someone's got the right skills

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and someone doesn't have the right

skills from there's an opportunity for

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us to understand each other better and

understand the ways in which an autistic

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person, for example, communicates very

skillfully that work for them and their

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particular neurotype so that it's not

just all on the neurodivergent person

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to learn the neurotypical social

skills, dating skills, but that there's

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like, oh, we could both be bridging

this, this gap in understanding.

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Jessica: Yeah, and if you, dear listener,

are somebody who is dedicated to

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fighting systems of oppression, ableism

is one huge system of oppression.

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And this is one way to

do your part, right?

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To learn, how can I bear the

burden of adjusting and flexing?

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Where my autistic or otherwise

neurodivergent partner might have been

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bearing that burden their entire lives.

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Josh: Mm hmm.

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Love it.

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Jessica: There is, I'm gonna get

up on my soapbox for a second and

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we may cut this out, we'll see.

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Go there, go there.

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There's a phrase in the Bay

Area about the dating scene.

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Specifically about women dating men.

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That is, uh, the odds are

good but the goods are odd.

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Yeah.

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Meaning there are more men than women.

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If you're a woman dating a

man, that means good odds.

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But the options are odd.

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And I've always felt

uncomfortable with that phrase.

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And I think it wasn't until I

started really learning about

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Neurodiversity Affirming Care in our

practice that I realized what it is.

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It's actually, in part, I

think an ableist sentiment.

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And this gets a little tricky and nuanced

because I think part of what the statement

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is referring to is women are seeing the

immense deficit of emotional intelligence

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in some of the men that they're dating.

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That is separate from neuro divergence.

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And that is frustrating.

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And that's a, an outcome of the patriarchy

and men are suffering from that too.

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Yep.

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And I think that's also referencing,

there are a lot of neurodivergent

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individuals in the Bay Area, right?

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This is an area where

we have a lot of tech.

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We have a lot of sort of

cutting edge startups.

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Those organizations tend to

attract neurodivergent individuals.

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And so I always feel sad, I think,

when I hear that phrase and eager to,

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again, validate that Yeah, some of

the time what we're talking about is

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really the patriarchy and how that's

stopped men from developing emotionally.

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And some of that is counting out really

wonderful human beings just because

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they don't fit neurotypical standards.

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Josh: Yeah, they maybe interact

differently than what you are used to

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or expect and you treat that as Oh, this

person isn't a good partner, isn't worth

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dating, isn't worth paying attention to.

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Jessica: Right.

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Josh: And you miss out.

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Jessica: Yeah.

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Which isn't to say every

neurodivergent individual is.

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your partner, or that you have to force

yourself into a relationship that isn't

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a good fit, but I just wonder if there

was a little bit more awareness, how

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many more happy unions would be created?

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Josh: Yeah, it's not that you need to go

and force yourself to date people that

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you don't like or aren't a good fit for

you, but rather you're missing somebody

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who might be wonderful because you

don't understand how to relate to them.

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to their neurotype.

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Jessica: Right.

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Josh: And you miss, oh, there's a kind,

intelligent, sweet hearted human here.

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Who's actually all the things that

you're looking for in a partner.

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And they maybe just look a little

different in terms of their neurotype

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than what you were expecting.

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Jessica: Yes, exactly.

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So I'll get off my soapbox now.

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Josh: I love it.

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Well, should we just dive into

the neurodivergent dating skills?

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Jessica: Dig

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Josh: in?

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Jessica: Well, let's just set the table

a little bit more and then we'll dive in.

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If you are neurodivergent, I

really encourage you with the

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last three episodes to keep in

mind the pros and cons of masking.

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Mm hmm.

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So, masking is the process of

attempting to appear neurotypical.

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Masking has Pros in terms of relationship

acceptance, societal acceptance, and

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cons in the sense of it can be really

hard on your mental health to pretend

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to be something that you're not.

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And so I just want you

to keep those in mind.

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It is a completely valid thing to

learn neurotypical skills, and a

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lot of our clients choose to do

because they want the flexibility.

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Um, and I want you also to consider,

like, what allows you to be present and

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comfortable in a dating context, which

is going to change context to context.

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I also want to name that for some

people choosing whether or not

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to mask is actually not a choice.

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Like for some neurodivergent folks,

it's actually an issue of safety.

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So I just want to name

that that is a privilege.

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So just keep all that in mind.

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Again, I do think of this episode as

a little bit more for neurotypical

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folks and want to encourage you to just

notice if the people that you're dating.

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Do any of the skills that we're going

to go over today, and if so, you might

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join them there, and that might allow

you to connect with them more deeply.

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All the things that I'm going to go over

come from a mixture of different sources.

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A lot of them do focus on autism,

and they also apply to other people.

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Neurotypes and neurodivergences, it's

very common for a neurodivergent mind

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to be neurodivergent in multiple ways.

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So for example, up to 80 percent

of autistics have ADHD, and up to

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20 percent of ADHDers are autistic.

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So you're going to see a

lot of overlap, basically.

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And we'll link you to some of the

sources that I'm pulling from.

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Some of these things come

from a really wonderful social

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media account called NeuroWild.

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There's also the site Embracing

Autism, which is fantastic.

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A little bit of it is from Devin

Price and the book Unmasking

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Autism, which I highly recommend.

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Josh: Love it.

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Those are some great resources.

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Jessica: Okay.

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Josh: Okay, is it time to dive in?

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We've got 11.

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11.

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Jessica: 11

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Josh: neurodivergent dating skills.

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Jessica: So the first one

is story swapping, okay?

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So story swapping is when I'm telling

you a story about an experience I

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had, maybe I'm Telling you about the

last great adventure I went on where

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I had this immense sense of joy.

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Uh, and you say in response,

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Josh: I, uh, I just went

on a great adventure too.

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I went up to hike Mount Tam and it was

beautiful and it was like a 10 hour hike

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and I've never been to Mount Tam before.

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So have I been to Mount Tam?

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This is completely off

topic, uh, et cetera.

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Jessica: Beautiful.

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Beautiful.

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So you met my story with

a story that is similar.

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Now, neurotypical skills, as we went over

in our second episode in this series, is

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really to practice active listening and

to really focus on the other person's

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experience and not take away the focus

by changing to a story about yourself.

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Story swapping for some neurodivergent

folks is, is a sign of empathy.

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I understand and join you in your

experience by sharing with you,

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uh, something from my life where I

had a similar feeling or outcome.

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Mm hmm.

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So, just notice how

different that is, right?

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It's like, for a more neurotypical dating

setting, if, if I were to change the focus

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from something that you just shared with

me, Josh, that would be considered rude.

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And like you can't listen.

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Right.

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Where for neurodivergent folks again,

it is a sign of I'm connected with you.

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I get what your experience is.

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Josh: Yeah.

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I'm with you.

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Yeah.

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How do you tell the difference?

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Let's say you are, uh,

neurotypical on a date.

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And someone is doing what

is maybe story swapping.

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How can you tell the difference between

somebody who is maybe a neurodivergent

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and they're story swapping versus somebody

who is making it all about themselves?

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Jessica: Yeah, that's a great question.

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I think that You want to triangulate

it with other information.

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Are there other ways in which

they seem to bring things back to

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themselves and kind of focus on

their own needs first and foremost?

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And are they doing some of these

other neurodivergent skills?

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And if they are, that might be a more

of a sign towards it's just their

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neurotype versus a self absorption.

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Yeah.

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Josh: Makes sense.

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Jessica: Okay.

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So number two, The social skill

slash dating skill that I want to

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suggest here is to really manage

stimulation according to what you need.

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Great.

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And we've talked about this a little

bit on the show as HSPs, you and I,

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highly sensitive, and HSPs are also

considered neurodivergent, uh, where,

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for example, we've talked about it.

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Going to a tea house or on

a walk instead of to a bar.

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Yep.

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That works much better for our

systems that are quite sensitive.

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So similar to that, like really

advocate for locations where you

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are going to be able to manage

stimulation in the way that you need.

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Some neurodivergent folks are

hypersensitive to stimulation

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and some are hyposensitive.

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So some people actually like, for

example, ADHDers, they may really

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thrive in an environment where there's

a lot of noise and a lot of activity

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versus an HSP or maybe a hypersensitive

autistic, for example, they're going

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to want a lower stim environment.

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Okay.

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Other ways to adjust stimulation.

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So previously we talked about eye contact.

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And for neurodivergent folks,

sometimes eye contact is overwhelming.

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Mm-Hmm.

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and so.

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Previously, in the first episode,

we talked about matching the

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other person's eye contact.

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And if that is too much for your

system, as a neurodivergent,

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you may choose to look away.

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So seeing this from the neurotypical

standpoint, if your date is not

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making as much eye contact, keep

in mind, that doesn't necessarily

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mean they don't like you.

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It may mean, actually, I've worked with

a number of clients who they make less

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eye contact the more attracted they are.

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Josh: Because it's more stimulating.

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Jessica: Yes.

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Josh: Yeah.

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Jessica: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So, just, you know, remain

open to what that kind of eye

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contact aversion might mean.

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And again, triangulate

it with other things.

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Mm hmm.

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Okay.

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A couple of other things to

know stimulation wise on dates.

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There's something called stimming.

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That's something that autistics

can do, sometimes ADHDers, etc.

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And it's essentially finding a way to

stimulate your system so that you are

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able to regulate your nervous system.

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The like, classic one for

autistics is hand flapping.

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And a lot of neurodivergent folks who

stim are really encouraged not to stim.

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Josh: Right.

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It is, uh, very socially pooh poohed.

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Jessica: Yeah.

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Right.

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I mean, I think about when I was

in school and there were kids

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who, again, had a really hard time

staying in their seat, staying still.

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It's like they were really pressured

to be very still and they actually

321

needed to move in order to focus.

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Right.

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So on a date if you are needing to

stim and you have deemed that it

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is safe to do that, again, some of

these things are not always safe

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to do in social situations, sadly.

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But if you've deemed

that it is safe, okay.

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That's a great way to

regulate your nervous system.

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Yeah,

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Josh: beautiful.

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Jessica: So, one last thing to say

about stimulation needs, um, for

331

some neurodivergent folks, they need

things like noise canceling headphones

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in certain kinds of environments.

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Mm hmm.

334

So, for me, as a highly sensitive

person, there was a period in my

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life where I went to a lot of movies,

and I had to bring earplugs with me

336

because the movies were too loud.

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Yep.

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I always felt like Pretty silly

because you're expected in our

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society to be able to handle a movie.

340

Um, and it was a way for me to be present.

341

So keeping that in mind as well,

if you are going to a stimulating

342

environment, you can actually bring

tools to reduce the stimulation.

343

And that can allow you to be more present.

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Josh: Love it.

345

Makes sense.

346

All right.

347

Should we go on to number three?

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Jessica: Yes.

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Cooperative overlap.

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You know what this one is.

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Josh: I know what cooperative overlap is.

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Jessica: Do you want to take

a stab at describing it?

353

Josh: Uh, I can take a stab.

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Maybe we can even just demo it right now.

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Jessica: Very good.

356

We should definitely try to demo

it because it's a, you know, it's a

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really good one to show to people.

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Josh: It's not come naturally to me.

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No, you were a term taker.

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Yeah, I'm absolutely a term taker.

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Jessica: I'm a term taker too.

362

And I really

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Josh: like to share about, um,

See, I also need to think about

364

what I say before I say it.

365

Well,

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Jessica: you know, thinking is like,

it's just, you know, it takes a lot of

367

energy and sometimes it's like hard to

do it when you're like also listening.

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I also

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Josh: like to listen.

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Listening is great, and I

also like to think about what

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I'm saying before I say it.

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Jessica: Yeah, it's great to be mindful

about what you say, and to, you know,

373

like really bring things in thoughtfully,

but it's also fun to just like jump in.

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Josh: Just jump in.

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Jessica: Fancy.

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Josh: Wow, that's a

skill I need to practice.

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Jessica: Yeah, so cooperative

overlap, I was thinking about this

378

earlier as I was preparing for this.

379

You and I are Definitely turntakers.

380

Yeah.

381

We are on the other end

of that spectrum for sure.

382

And I think that that can be related

again to high sensitivity, right?

383

High sensitivity tends to mean

you're taking in more information

384

than the average Jane and

you're processing through it.

385

So there, there can be a

slower uptake plus there's a

386

very high consideration level.

387

I don't want to seem rude.

388

Right.

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Now cooperative overlap to, to

back up a little bit here, you,

390

you got a good example of it.

391

But it's basically interrupting.

392

But positive interrupting.

393

Interrupting out of an energy

of I'm excited about what you're

394

saying, I'm going to add to what

you're saying, we're connected.

395

Yeah.

396

And this can be really common,

again, autistics, ADHD ers.

397

Um, I think it can also be cultural.

398

Josh: Yeah, for sure.

399

For sure.

400

Jessica: And again, this

is a great one to notice.

401

If somebody's interrupting you,

is it possible that they actually

402

just feel really connected to you?

403

Josh: Yeah, yeah.

404

I remember someone I

dated earlier in my life.

405

I think I had the most potent experience

of their style of cooperative overlap

406

intersecting with my style of turn taking.

407

And not knowing better at the

time, I interpreted it as, uh, this

408

person doesn't know how to listen.

409

And, you know, I think in hindsight,

I don't know what their neurotype was,

410

but I could certainly look back and

see, oh, that was just like a very

411

different style of communicating.

412

They, maybe they were an ADHD or I

don't know, maybe it was cultural.

413

But that if I had a different frame

on it at that time, I would have

414

brought more compassion and more

curiosity to it rather than just being

415

like, Um, well, they don't seem to

really care about what I have to say.

416

Jessica: Right.

417

Yeah.

418

Yeah.

419

Looking back, it sounds like you can

see the kind of like ableism in there.

420

Josh: Absolutely.

421

Yeah.

422

Absolutely.

423

Yeah.

424

Jessica: Yeah.

425

Yeah.

426

It's so interesting because I can think

back on relationships where I think the

427

other person wanted me to interrupt more.

428

Josh: Mm hmm.

429

Right.

430

Right.

431

It's like they're looking for that as

like a sign of like, are you engaged?

432

Are you, are you interested?

433

Yeah.

434

You're not really like Volunteering

things, you're not really, like,

435

sharing or interrupting me, so I

can't tell if you're here with me.

436

Jessica: Exactly.

437

Josh: Yeah.

438

Jessica: Yeah, so I think this,

again, comes back to, it can be

439

a lot easier if you find somebody

who has a similar neurotype.

440

You and I are chronic turn takers,

and we know, I was, you know, I think

441

we were just talking the other day

about one of the beloved couples in

442

our lives, and they are such, you

443

Cooperative overlovers.

444

Yeah,

445

Josh: and they do it great.

446

It's like, it works so well for them.

447

Jessica: And they are so happy together.

448

Josh: Yeah, yeah, such a loving couple.

449

Jessica: It's hard to get a word in

edgewise as us socializing with them.

450

Josh: We need to bring ourselves forward

a little bit more sometimes, for sure.

451

Jessica: Very good.

452

So that's cooperative overlap.

453

I could

454

Josh: do some info

dumping about my special

455

Jessica: interests.

456

Let's go.

457

Let's go.

458

Josh: Lest this turn into

a podcast about pickleball.

459

You should probably

explain what this means.

460

Pickleball and plants.

461

Jessica: Uh, so, info dumping about

special interests is where one person

462

will say, Basically monologues, deep

dives into something that they are

463

In many ways, obsessed with, in a

very positive way, a special interest

464

is, um, something like pickleball or

plants, uh, or for me, anything we

465

talk about on the show, um, and so this

is in contrast to what is expected in

466

more neurotypical settings, which is,

um, Touching on a lot of different

467

topics on kind of a surface level, but

moving between topics and typically

468

neurodivergent folks, their special

interests are very, very, very deep and

469

lasting regardless of what trends are.

470

So a more neurotypical conversation

might be like, we just went to

471

a party last night and somebody

asked us about the Olympics, right?

472

And after they asked us about the

Olympics, they asked us, how long

473

have you lived in this neighborhood?

474

This was a block party and we

just kind of like jumped from one

475

kind of casual topic to the next.

476

Yeah, rather than Say one person

Talking to us for maybe 10 minutes

477

straight about a specific kind of

game in the Olympics But they have

478

been studying for years and years.

479

Yeah, right and so I think this is

another good one to keep in mind.

480

If somebody is monologuing, oftentimes

I think that can be interpreted as, this

481

person can't listen, this person can't

take turns, this person is self focused,

482

when in fact they're sharing something

that excites them, that they love

483

deeply, which means they want to connect.

484

Yeah.

485

Josh: Yeah.

486

Yeah, it's a great, a great reframe

like, oh, this person is excited

487

to connect with me because they're

sharing about this thing that

488

they're really passionate about.

489

Jessica: Right.

490

Yep.

491

Josh: Beautiful.

492

Should we talk about number five?

493

Jessica: Yes.

494

So number five is focusing

on verbal communication.

495

Versus nonverbal communication, including

mirroring, nonverbal mirroring, which

496

we talked about in our first episode.

497

So this refers particularly with autistics

to really the emphasis is on what is

498

said, the words that are used, rather

than microexpressions or body language.

499

So for a lot of autistics, they are

listening way more to the words that

500

are being said and what they mean,

rather than tracking facial expressions

501

or whether the other person has closed

body language or open body language.

502

So if you are somebody who really looks

for that non verbal communication.

503

You might instead start to focus a little

bit more if you think the other person

504

is neurodivergent on the words that are

being said, specifically the meaning

505

of them, not necessarily the tone.

506

Josh: And that can be a hard thing

to turn off for a neurotypical brain

507

to shift away from focusing on tone

because we're so Locked into tone.

508

Mm

509

Jessica: hmm.

510

Josh: For a big indicator of meaning.

511

Jessica: Yes.

512

Josh: But it can be a

little bit of a red herring.

513

Jessica: Mm

514

Josh: hmm.

515

A misleading indicator for someone

who is neurodivergent sometimes.

516

Jessica: Yeah.

517

So, let me give you an

example of this one.

518

So, let's come back to that example I

gave earlier of some people, Who are

519

neurodivergent may actually make less eye

contact when they're really attracted.

520

Yep.

521

So, let's imagine you're sitting across

from your date, they are looking away

522

and they say to you, I really like you.

523

Some people might take that mixture

of signals to mean they maybe,

524

maybe like me a little bit, but.

525

They're not entirely sure,

or something's off about this

526

person, they're not being honest.

527

Right.

528

Versus really taking the words

at face value, and letting go

529

of what the eyes are saying.

530

Josh: That's a great example.

531

Jessica: Related to focusing on

verbal communication, For a lot of

532

neurodivergent folks, the emphasis

is on honest and direct language,

533

rather than indirect or sugar coated.

534

Josh: Mm hmm.

535

So this is number six.

536

Jessica: Yes.

537

Josh: And, uh, maybe an

example here would be helpful.

538

Jessica: Mm hmm.

539

Yes.

540

So, let's extend the example we just used.

541

Josh: Perfect.

542

Jessica: Let's say this person's looking

away, and they say, I really like you.

543

I want to be in a relationship with you.

544

Pretty honest.

545

Josh: Pretty honest.

546

Pretty direct.

547

Pretty direct.

548

Yeah.

549

Jessica: The more neurotypical way of

doing that would be making eye contact

550

and maybe saying like, this feels good.

551

I'd like more of this.

552

Josh: I love your like hitting on me face.

553

So good.

554

Yeah.

555

And so that's, Indirect

and a lot is implied.

556

A lot of the meaning is being carried

by the nonverbal communication.

557

What were the words you used?

558

Jessica: This feels good.

559

I'd like more of this.

560

Josh: More of this.

561

It's like, what feels

good, And more of what?

562

Jessica: Mm hmm.

563

Mm hmm.

564

Josh: It's like you were just

hearing the words, but with all of

565

the other cues, it means something.

566

Jessica: Right.

567

Josh: Uh, but for a neurodivergent person,

it might be hard to read those cues.

568

Jessica: Mm hmm.

569

Josh: And, so they're gonna go

for, I really like you, I'd like

570

to be in a relationship with you.

571

Jessica: Mm hmm.

572

Josh: Beautiful.

573

So, number seven.

574

Jessica: Right.

575

Number seven.

576

Related.

577

There's a focus on the meaning

of words, rather than the tone,

578

the context, or the subtext.

579

So, this is similar to focusing

on verbal communication, but kind

580

of digs in a little bit deeper.

581

Mm hmm.

582

Letting go of, what does their

paraverbal language suggest?

583

What does the lilt in their voice suggest?

584

Mm hmm.

585

But rather, really taking

the words at face value.

586

So, an example of this

might be, I love you.

587

Josh: Right.

588

Your non verbal, your para verbal language

was, uh, very, what I would, as a kind of

589

holistic would might say, is kind of flat.

590

There's not a lot of warmth to it.

591

But the words, I love you, very important.

592

Jessica: Right.

593

So, I'm curious for you,

as an holistic, Mm hmm.

594

Hearing, I love you, but receiving

kind of that flat affect, what

595

message do you take from that?

596

Josh: Yeah.

597

It, it, uh, if I were just reading

that as from my holistic perspective,

598

it would be like something's off here.

599

Uh, I don't, they're saying that

they love me, but I don't know.

600

Their behavior doesn't, or

their like affect around it

601

doesn't quite seem to match.

602

And so I'm going to be a little wary.

603

I'm maybe not going to believe them.

604

Um.

605

I'm going to be a little bit maybe just

like thrown off by a little bit and not

606

really quite sure how to interpret it.

607

Jessica: Right.

608

Josh: Uh, yeah.

609

Jessica: Yeah.

610

And I think for, for some it can

also come across as a little angry.

611

Josh: Yeah.

612

For sure.

613

It could even be a little angry.

614

Jessica: Right.

615

Josh: Right.

616

Yeah.

617

Jessica: Rather than, oh, they love me.

618

Josh: Right.

619

That's lovely.

620

Very sweet.

621

Yeah.

622

So if we know someone's neurotype.

623

That's so helpful to have that context.

624

Jessica: Right.

625

Josh: To know how to

interpret what you're seeing.

626

Jessica: Yes.

627

Yeah, and I want to

acknowledge it is hard.

628

Sometimes we don't know the

other person's neurotype.

629

Mm hmm.

630

They haven't told us.

631

They don't know.

632

Mm hmm.

633

Um, so again, I think knowing all of

these different skills can be really

634

beneficial in terms of you making your

best guess at what their neurotype is.

635

Josh: Right.

636

Yeah, it's a, like, at least we might.

637

be able to tell, oh, we might be playing

in the neurodivergent space here.

638

So maybe I will look at what's

happening through that lens

639

and see if that changes things.

640

Versus interpreting it how I

might otherwise interpret it.

641

Or, if they maybe have shared their

neurotype with you, then it's like, okay,

642

great, now I know how I might want to play

here in a way that's going to meet them

643

rather than expecting them to meet me.

644

Beautiful.

645

So those, those three all

kind of went together.

646

They're like, focus on verbal

communication, being honest and direct,

647

and focusing on the meaning of words.

648

Uh, time for number eight.

649

Jessica: Number eight.

650

So skip the small talk.

651

Which is very different from

kind of what we modeled earlier,

652

cycling through small talk topics

before getting deep, if at all.

653

We touched on this in our,

maybe our last episode?

654

I think it was the second

655

Josh: episode.

656

No, it was the second episode.

657

Yeah, it was when we were

658

Jessica: talking about lingering,

because we tend to emphasize,

659

well, lingering and opening, right?

660

Asking hard opening questions.

661

I think we as, we have a bias as Highly

sensitive people, but also people who've

662

studied the work of the Gottmans, etc.

663

Where we really feel like going

deep sooner than you would with an

664

acquaintance is a really key dating skill.

665

Yeah.

666

And that's not going to be everyone's jam.

667

Yep.

668

And, for somebody who is neurodivergent,

they're just like, they're not

669

even going to do the small talk.

670

Like, they're not going to talk

about the weather, they're not

671

going to talk about the Olympics.

672

They're just going to dive into

whatever their, for example, special

673

interest is, or what happened

in their day, whatever it is.

674

Josh: Which could be fun.

675

I don't know if this is true for,

some folks may love the Smalltalk.

676

I know for me, I'm just being an HSP now.

677

Jessica: Wait, how are you being an HSP?

678

Josh: I want to dive deep into the things!

679

Because I want to go, screw the

680

Jessica: Smalltalk.

681

Yep, this is one that

you can get down with.

682

Me too.

683

Okay, let's talk about number nine.

684

So this one, uh, I find so helpful

to know about for a lot of autistics

685

and other neurodivergent folks.

686

There can be a tendency to ask a lot

of questions in pursuit of accuracy.

687

Josh: Interesting.

688

I didn't know this one actually.

689

Jessica: Yeah.

690

Versus using a limited number of questions

so as not to seem impertinent and kind

691

of in the vein of self sufficiency.

692

Let me give an example.

693

Let's say in a dating context, you share

with me a little bit about your work and

694

I ask 20 different questions about it.

695

Some of which are hyper specific.

696

And after a while, you start to

feel like you're being grilled.

697

Or, like, maybe there's a

game afoot or something?

698

Are they

699

Josh: trying to get trade

secrets about my industry?

700

Jessica: Well that, or just like,

are they being a little sarcastic

701

with some of these questions?

702

Like, why, why?

703

Uh huh.

704

Versus just one or two questions

and then they kind of let it go.

705

Another example of this might be, you, you

ask your date for a particular beverage

706

and they ask you five, ten questions about

how to make sure they get the right order.

707

And after a while you start to be

like, okay, are they teasing me?

708

Like, what is the

709

Josh: deal?

710

Hmm.

711

Jessica: Versus, they just

make some assumptions.

712

Josh: Mm hmm.

713

Right.

714

And for the neurodivergent person,

their intent is to get it, get it right.

715

Or like, learn, really understand

very deeply what you do, for instance.

716

Jessica: Mm

717

Josh: hmm.

718

Really understand you.

719

And for the neurotypical person,

they're maybe like a little like,

720

uh, this is, this feels weird.

721

Jessica: Right.

722

Josh: Rather than really seeing it as

it is, as a sign of care and interest.

723

Jessica: Right.

724

Isn't that one interesting?

725

Josh: Yeah, yeah, that's great.

726

I do a little bit of this sometimes.

727

Jessica: Yeah.

728

Josh: Probably not to the extent

that some neurodivergent folks do it,

729

but I have a bias towards accuracy.

730

Jessica: You and me both.

731

Josh: Yeah.

732

Great, okay.

733

How about number 10?

734

Jessica: Number 10 is parallel

play versus cooperative play.

735

Josh: Mm hmm.

736

Mm hmm.

737

So Parallel play might look

like we are sitting next to

738

each other doing something.

739

I'm reading my book,

you're playing your game.

740

We're together, but we're

not doing something.

741

We're not doing something together.

742

Jessica: That's right.

743

Versus cooperative play where we are

Doing a social dance class together.

744

Josh: We're playing a board game together.

745

Jessica: Absolutely.

746

This one's interesting, you

know, introverts tend to

747

really love parallel play too.

748

Introversion is not neurodivergence.

749

Um, it is, you know, 30 50

percent of the population.

750

Although, I don't know.

751

I've never seen introversion

on a neurodivergence class.

752

But I do think that introverts

are expected to act like

753

extroverts a lot of the time.

754

Accurate.

755

Um, and I think that this applies

not just to introverts, but to a

756

lot of, um, neurodivergent folks.

757

You know, you think about the way that

people describe autistic kids, they

758

don't want to play with other kids.

759

Different way of framing that is they

love to play next to others and that that

760

allows them to kind of be in their world,

to dive deep into their special interests,

761

doesn't mean there's anything wrong.

762

Josh: Right.

763

Jessica: So similarly, you know, I've

had some neurodivergent clients who

764

do really well on a date where You

find a spot under a beautiful tree

765

in a park and you draw side by side.

766

Josh: Lovely.

767

Jessica: So I think this, this one

can be particularly applied to how

768

do I set up my dates, but also how

do I set up quality time in general

769

with the person that I'm dating?

770

Josh: Yep.

771

Makes sense.

772

Okay.

773

Should we go on to our

11th and final skill here?

774

Jessica: Let's do it.

775

This one's, I find also fascinating.

776

Non compliance.

777

Versus, yes and.

778

Josh: Tell me more.

779

Jessica: So noncompliance

is a social skill.

780

I just came across this

idea for the first time.

781

Devin Price, again, author of

Unmasking Autism, mentioned it.

782

And the idea here is a lot of,

again, autistic kids are expected,

783

and really neurodivergent kids in

general, are expected to comply with.

784

With neurotypical standards,

coming back to that example of,

785

in the classroom, you should sit.

786

You should stay quiet.

787

You can be seen, but not heard.

788

In that way, compliance is really coerced.

789

Right.

790

And so, non compliance, saying,

no, I don't want to do that.

791

Um, or, not even saying it,

just not doing something.

792

Mm hmm.

793

Mm hmm.

794

It is a skill, it is adaptive, it is

a way to self advocate, it is a way

795

to retain one's self and sense of self

in a world that is trying desperately

796

to tell you to be something else.

797

So, yes, which we talked

about in our second episode.

798

really emphasizes where you can say yes.

799

Bring in that energy of yes.

800

You know, I think we, we were careful

in there to say this isn't compliance.

801

This isn't forced compliance.

802

Right.

803

Or inauthenticity.

804

And I think it's still worth emphasizing

here, you know, You know, if you are

805

neurodivergent and have been taught

to pretend to be neurotypical your

806

whole life on a date, it is skillful

to be like, yeah, no, I don't want to

807

go to that really loud adult arcade.

808

I will not be able to enjoy myself.

809

Right.

810

Right.

811

Or, this has been great and

it's time for me to go home.

812

Right.

813

Josh: Yeah.

814

Jessica: Or, no, I'm

not ready to have sex.

815

Josh: Mm hmm.

816

Yeah, it's also a way of avoiding masking,

where I'm, I'm not going to engage in

817

the expected behaviors, the expected

ways of covering up my neurotype that

818

research has shown are very unhealthy

for folks who are neurodivergent.

819

Jessica: Right.

820

Josh: I love highlighting this as a skill.

821

Jessica: Mm hmm.

822

Yeah.

823

Josh: It's great.

824

I think I said this when

we talked about Yes and.

825

Yeah.

826

It's great.

827

But you can't have an authentic

guess without room for a no.

828

And so this is like key.

829

Jessica: Yeah.

830

Josh: Yeah.

831

Jessica: Yeah.

832

Absolutely.

833

Josh: Beautiful.

834

Jessica: Yeah.

835

Josh: Well, that was a, a, a

juicy, juicy Bunch of grapes?

836

What am I talking about?

837

I don't know.

838

Jessica: That was a juicy bunch of grapes.

839

I agree.

840

Josh: Great.

841

Uh, yeah, let's grape.

842

Well, let's, let's do a

little, let's do a recap.

843

So, the neurodivergent dating skills.

844

That we just reviewed include,

number one, story swapping.

845

I share a story, you share a story, that

is similar, that shows You're listening,

846

you're with me, you're paying attention.

847

Number two, adjusting

stimulation to your needs.

848

Whether that's increasing stimulation

or decreasing stimulation, finding

849

locations, date locations that match

your sensitivity, whether that's

850

you need more stimulation or less.

851

Number three is cooperative overlap.

852

Interrupting one another.

853

Number four is info dumping

on special interests.

854

Spend the next 10 minutes

telling you all about Pickleball.

855

Uh, and that's a way of letting you

know that I'm excited to know you.

856

Number five was focusing

on verbal communication.

857

The words we're using, rather

than non verbal communication,

858

including physical mirroring.

859

Number six is that honest and

direct language, where we're using

860

words that mean specifically what

we mean versus being indirect or

861

kind of insinuating a meaning.

862

Number seven, again, focusing on the

meaning of the words versus the tone, the

863

tone of voice, or the context or subtext.

864

Skipping the small talk and going

straight into something deeply,

865

rather than touching on a number

of small topics a little bit.

866

Number nine was asking lots of

questions in pursuit of accuracy.

867

So like, asking those five or ten follow

up questions about the drink order so

868

that they really get it right, or asking

a whole bunch of questions about your job.

869

Number 10 is parallel play, so we're

doing our own activities with each other,

870

next to each other, rather than playing

together, doing one thing together.

871

And our last skill, number 11,

was non compliance, saying no to

872

things that aren't authentic to you.

873

Jessica: Alright.

874

Josh: The end.

875

Jessica: Beautiful.

876

Woohoo.

877

Yeehaw.

878

Is it worth mentioning after this

month's episode, we're going to be on

879

a short break for a couple of months.

880

Josh: It is worth mentioning that.

881

Jessica: Very good.

882

We'll Dear listener, we're going to

be on a short break for a couple of

883

months, and we're going to replay

two of our most popular episodes

884

of all time, What to Look For in a

Long Term Relationship and Pacing.

885

Josh: Pacing.

886

Jessica: Pacing.

887

And then we'll be back.

888

Josh: And then we'll be back.

889

Jessica: And then we'll be

890

Josh: back.

891

We'll be back with some new episodes.

892

Jessica: We'll be back with new episodes.

893

If you have a question or comment,

you can always email us at podcast

894

at relationship center dot com.

895

We recently got a couple more

questions that we've been planning

896

some love notes around, so we'd

love to get your question as well.

897

That's all for today.

898

You can find the show notes with links

to all the resources we mentioned in

899

this episode at relationshipcenter.

900

com slash podcast.

901

Josh: If you'd like to work with

one of the talented clinicians on

902

our team, go to relationshipcenter.

903

com to apply for a free

30 minute consultation.

904

Jessica: You can also sign up

for a monthly email of our best

905

content at relationshipcenter.

906

com slash newsletter.

907

Josh: And if something in

this episode touched you, will

908

you share it with a friend?

909

That helps us reach more

sweet humans like you.

910

Jessica: Lastly, we'd love it if you

would leave us a rating and review

911

wherever you listen to podcasts.

912

And be sure to hit subscribe while you're

there so you never miss an episode.

913

Josh: Until next time.

914

We love you, too.

915

Jessica: Bye!

916

Do you want to come down here?

917

Do you need snuggles?

918

Are you owning all of our equipment?

919

Josh: Executive producer, Neshi.

920

Laughter