Transcripts
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Mia Mottley:For those who have eyes to see, for those who have
Mia Mottley:ears to listen, and for those who have a heart to feel, 1.5 is
Mia Mottley:what we need to survive. Two degrees is a death sentence.
Amy Martin:Welcome to Threshold, I'm Amy Martin, and
Amy Martin:this is Mia Mottley, Prime Minister of Barbados. She's
Amy Martin:speaking to world leaders at COP26 the UN climate conference
Amy Martin:held in Glasgow, Scotland, urging them not to give up on
Amy Martin:the primary goal of these talks, keeping global temperatures
Amy Martin:below 1.5 degrees Celsius over pre-industrial levels.
Mia Mottley:Our people are watching, and our people are
Mia Mottley:taking note. And are we really going to leave Scotland without
Mia Mottley:the resolve and the ambition that is sorely needed to save
Mia Mottley:lives and to save our planet. How many more voices and how
Mia Mottley:many more pictures of people must we see on these screens
Mia Mottley:without being able to move? Or are we so blinded and hardened
Mia Mottley:that we can no longer appreciate the cries of humanity?
Amy Martin:What Prime Minister Mottley is pointing to here is
Amy Martin:something we've also been examining, in various ways,
Amy Martin:throughout this season of our show. The climate crisis is not
Amy Martin:just a carbon emissions problem, it's an inequality problem. In
Amy Martin:fact, global warming and global inequality are the same problem,
Amy Martin:manifesting in different ways. Just take the example of
Amy Martin:Barbados. The indigenous population was all but wiped out
Amy Martin:by colonization. Then Britain built enormous wealth by
Amy Martin:abducting African people and brutalizing them there during
Amy Martin:the Industrial Revolution, and now the emissions from the
Amy Martin:fossil fuels that were part of that same process are
Amy Martin:threatening the future of Barbados. With that history in
Amy Martin:mind, Mia Mottley has every reason to show up at these
Amy Martin:conferences with nothing but hostility toward the big
Amy Martin:emitters. But instead, she and leaders like her from countries
Amy Martin:around the world with similar stories are saying to the
Amy Martin:wealthy nations, please work with us to fix this. Recognize
Amy Martin:the loss and damage you've caused. Help us to adapt to the
Amy Martin:coming changes, because we're all in this together.
Mia Mottley:Do some leaders in this world believe that they can
Mia Mottley:survive and thrive on their own? Have they not learned from the
Mia Mottley:pandemic? Can there be peace and prosperity if one third of the
Mia Mottley:world prospers and the other two thirds of the world live under
Mia Mottley:siege and face calamitous threats to our well-being?
Amy Martin:If there's one statistic that you remember from
Amy Martin:this season of our show, I hope it's this one: the countries of
Amy Martin:the G20- 20 of the world's biggest economies- have
Amy Martin:generated more than 80% of cumulative global greenhouse gas
Amy Martin:emissions. 20 economies, 80% of emissions. That means more than
Amy Martin:150 countries are stuck dealing with a problem that they did
Amy Martin:very little to create. So the question at the center of this
Amy Martin:UN process is, will the countries that got the world
Amy Martin:into this mess take responsibility for leading the
Amy Martin:way out of it?
Mia Mottley:Code red, rode Red to the G7 countries. Code red,
Mia Mottley:Code red to the G20 and we've come here today to say, try
Mia Mottley:harder, try harder, because our people, the climate army, the
Mia Mottley:world, the planet, needs our actions now, not next year, not
Mia Mottley:in the next decade. Thank you.
Siobhan McDonnel:There's an urgency to these issues and a
Siobhan McDonnel:sense of the responsibility when we walk into these rooms.
Unknown:We cannot experiment with our home because we don't
Unknown:have an alternative.
Unknown:Dr. Saleemul Huq: This is all about power, both financial and
Unknown:political. Some countries get to do things, and others don't.
Wanjira Mathai:I think we can agree we need to get 1.5. It is
Wanjira Mathai:about life and death.
Amy Martin:So it's Wednesday of week two. It was a big day
Amy Martin:today.
Amy Martin:Dr. Saleemul Huq: Yes, it was a big day because the presidency
Amy Martin:released their draft text for the Glasgow... I think they're
Amy Martin:going to call it Glasgow declaration. I'm not quite sure
Amy Martin:what they're going to call it, but that's the chapeau, the
Amy Martin:overall Glasgow outcome.
Amy Martin:I'm inside the Blue Zone on the second week of COP26
Amy Martin:talking to Dr. Saleemul Huq of the Independent University
Amy Martin:Bangladesh. Saleem is one of the few people who spent all 26
Amy Martin:conferences of the parties, or COPs. He serves as an advisor to
Amy Martin:the least developed countries group at the negotiations. And
Amy Martin:I've learned a lot from Saleem, including words like "chapeau."
Amy Martin:It turns out it doesn't only mean "hat" in French. It's also
Amy Martin:the first part of an international treaty where the
Amy Martin:main goals of the agreement get defined. It's often referred to
Amy Martin:as the cover text here in coplandia, and that's what came
Amy Martin:out today. There are big sections on adaptation and
Amy Martin:mitigation, and my colleague Shola Lawal is going to help us
Amy Martin:get caught up on some of those issues in just a minute. But
Amy Martin:first, I want to know what's going on with my chosen beat,
Amy Martin:loss and damage.
Amy Martin:And did it have anything to say about loss and damage in it?
Amy Martin:Dr. Saleemul Huq: It has a section on loss and damage, but
Amy Martin:it isn't enough.
Amy Martin:In its simplest form, the conflict around loss
Amy Martin:and damage is that many of the countries that have done the
Amy Martin:least to cause the climate crisis stand to lose the most
Amy Martin:from it, and they want the big emitters to recognize those
Amy Martin:losses and create some kind of system for compensation. Many of
Amy Martin:the wealthy countries don't want to do that. The details of what
Amy Martin:the cover text says about loss and damage get pretty technical
Amy Martin:pretty fast, so I'm just going to summarize it this way: Saleem
Amy Martin:and other loss and damage advocates here have some reason
Amy Martin:to be cautiously optimistic, but with an emphasis on the caution
Amy Martin:part. He says they've scaled back their goals. Rather than
Amy Martin:pushing for funding, they're aiming to get the wealthy
Amy Martin:countries just to agree to start building a process for
Amy Martin:addressing loss and damage through something they're
Amy Martin:calling the Glasgow Facility for Loss and Damage Finance.
Amy Martin:Dr. Saleemul Huq: They don't have to give finance, but they
Amy Martin:have to acknowledge it needs to be discussed. And so we need
Amy Martin:language that allows the Glasgow decision to enable us to start
Amy Martin:working on what would finance look like. How much would be
Amy Martin:needed, who might give it, how it would be arranged and
Amy Martin:organized.
Amy Martin:But even getting this limited goal accomplished
Amy Martin:is not at all guaranteed, Saleem says. And time is running out.
Amy Martin:The conference is scheduled to end on Friday.
Amy Martin:Dr. Saleemul Huq: This is the last 24 hours where pressure can
Amy Martin:work. After 24 hours, that's it.
Amy Martin:That pressure plays out in the form of battles over
Amy Martin:words throughout the whole two weeks of this conference,
Amy Martin:negotiators on the dozens of issues at play here pass
Amy Martin:documents back and forth, pushing to get words or phrases
Amy Martin:added, deleted or changed. That text eventually makes its way up
Amy Martin:to the COP president, usually someone from the country or
Amy Martin:region where the conference is being held. In this case, the
Amy Martin:President is Alok Sharma, a senior minister in the UK
Amy Martin:administration of Boris Johnson, and he has the unenviable task
Amy Martin:of weaving all of these different threads together into
Amy Martin:one document, which everyone will hopefully be willing to
Amy Martin:sign off on by the end of the conference. The chapeau or cover
Amy Martin:text that was released today is kind of like Sharma's first
Amy Martin:public draft of that document. It shows what's been agreed to
Amy Martin:so far and what's left to be decided. Again, it's Wednesday,
Amy Martin:and the conference is scheduled to end on Friday, so negotiators
Amy Martin:are working madly to get the changes they want solidified in
Amy Martin:the text.
Siobhan McDonnel:We run so hard. You know, our days are 16,
Siobhan McDonnel:18 hours long, but there's an urgency to these issues and a
Siobhan McDonnel:sense of the responsibility that we carry with us when we walk
Siobhan McDonnel:into these rooms that's incredibly, profoundly important
Siobhan McDonnel:to the work.
Amy Martin:This is Siobhan McDonnel, lead negotiator on
Amy Martin:loss and damage for Fiji at this COP. She agreed to do a short
Amy Martin:interview with me as long as we focused on the issue itself,
Amy Martin:what loss and damage is and why it matters, and stayed away from
Amy Martin:the specifics of what was happening in the negotiating
Amy Martin:rooms here. But before we start, I want to know how people get
Amy Martin:into this work, how you even become a negotiator. Siobhan
Amy Martin:gives me a quick overview of her pathway into this role.
Siobhan McDonnel:I'm Australian. I'm a woman of
Siobhan McDonnel:color. I have a long, complex history. I've lived and worked
Siobhan McDonnel:in the Pacific for many, many years, and I've spent a lot of
Siobhan McDonnel:time negotiating on behalf of Pacific Island countries. I am a
Siobhan McDonnel:lawyer, professionally. I've written parts of the
Siobhan McDonnel:Constitution in Vanuatu. I've written all of the land laws in
Siobhan McDonnel:Vanuatu. I've written
Amy Martin:And like almost all small island developing states,
Amy Martin:they're among the most climate vulnerable societies on the
Amy Martin:planet. They're already being impacted in the form of
Amy Martin:droughts, deterioration of coral reefs, deadly storms, and, of
Amy Martin:course, sea level rise. And there are more threats on the
Amy Martin:horizon.
Siobhan McDonnel:So this is really the heart of climate
Siobhan McDonnel:justice. This is the global south, saying to carbon emitting
Siobhan McDonnel:countries, we emit almost no carbon, and yet we bear the
Siobhan McDonnel:brunt of these impacts. How is this fair?
Amy Martin:Siobhan says Pacific Islanders are doing all they can
Amy Martin:to adapt to a changing climate. They're protecting mangroves and
Amy Martin:planting more, developing climate resilient crops,
Amy Martin:improving their early warning systems and establishing new
Amy Martin:marine conservation areas. But not all climate change impacts
Amy Martin:can be mediated or adapted to. Some loss and damage is
Amy Martin:inevitable, and not just in the future. It's already happening.
Siobhan McDonnel:We are talking about relocation and
Siobhan McDonnel:resettlement of atoll islands.So beyond adaptation, no amount of
Siobhan McDonnel:sea walls, no amount of mangrove plantations. What are the
Siobhan McDonnel:answers, then, in this space? This is what we negotiate over.
Amy Martin:The answers in this space are not easy. To take just
Amy Martin:one example, Siobhan tells me about what happened on Vanuatu
Amy Martin:between 2015 and 2020. The country was slammed by two
Amy Martin:category five cyclones in just five years. After the first one
Amy Martin:hit, Cyclone Pam, there was a major drought, and people
Amy Martin:couldn't provide enough food for themselves through their
Siobhan McDonnel:And so there was a very extended period in
Siobhan McDonnel:gardens.
Siobhan McDonnel:which people became completely dependent on rice, the
Siobhan McDonnel:provisioning of rice that was taken out to villages. And with
Siobhan McDonnel:that came child stunting as a result. So there is now this
Siobhan McDonnel:period of acute child malnutrition and stunting
Siobhan McDonnel:amongst this proportion of the population in Vanuatu. So
Siobhan McDonnel:climate change has these health impacts. So at what point do we
Siobhan McDonnel:say this is not fair? And at what point do we try and
Siobhan McDonnel:recalibrate that equilibrium? And how do we decide to do it?
Siobhan McDonnel:You know, as the world, how do we come together and negotiate a
Siobhan McDonnel:more just outcome? And this is really the issue that sits
Siobhan McDonnel:underneath loss and damage.
Amy Martin:Loss and damage is where the rubber meets the road
Amy Martin:in terms of those common but differentiated responsibilities
Amy Martin:we talked about in our last episode. The principle that
Amy Martin:everyone has to do something here, but the countries that
Amy Martin:have released the most emissions have to do more. It's a stated
Amy Martin:principle of these talks, but loss and damage is one of the
Amy Martin:places where it becomes real. Or doesn't.
Siobhan McDonnel:So as negotiators, we come together
Siobhan McDonnel:every year and we try to nut it out. But it's slow, processional
Siobhan McDonnel:work about trying to create some arms and legs around what loss
Siobhan McDonnel:and damage might do and how it might work in developing
Siobhan McDonnel:countries, and it's one of the big asks of this COP presidency.
Amy Martin:This is where the role of a COP president becomes
Amy Martin:crucially important. As president, Alok Sharma is not a
Amy Martin:representative of the UK at this conference. He's supposed to
Amy Martin:serve as a neutral party that listens to all voices and builds
Amy Martin:an agreement that balances all the various needs and concerns.
Amy Martin:It's impossible to find a perfect balance, of course, but
Amy Martin:that's the goal.
Siobhan McDonnel:We have these huge impacts to our ways of
Siobhan McDonnel:life, to our ways of being. These are material and non
Siobhan McDonnel:material impacts that we bear every day, every year. Pay up.
Siobhan McDonnel:Where is the financial mechanism? And of course, the
Siobhan McDonnel:answer is uh-uh.
Amy Martin:The answer from who?
Siobhan McDonnel:The answer from the carbon-emitting
Siobhan McDonnel:developed world.
Amy Martin:While I've been talking to Siobhan, my colleague
Amy Martin:Shola Lawal has been spending time with world renowned
Amy Martin:environmental leader Wanjira Mathai.
Wanjira Mathai:We've got to get serious about the solidarity
Wanjira Mathai:around the adaptation agenda, the loss and damage agenda. Yes,
Wanjira Mathai:there have been some openings, and we are starting to discuss
Wanjira Mathai:it more, but we really don't have time to make small steps
Wanjira Mathai:every COP. We have to make some significant leaps. This is about
Wanjira Mathai:absolute exponential change that has to happen fast.
Amy Martin:Wanjira is from Kenya. She's the managing
Amy Martin:director for Africa and Global Partnerships at the World
Amy Martin:Resources Institute, and she also chairs the board of the
Amy Martin:Wangari Maathai Foundation, which furthers the work of her
Amy Martin:late mother, the first African woman to win the Nobel Peace
Amy Martin:Prize. Shola asked her for a general assessment of the
Amy Martin:conference in the middle of the second week.
Shola Lawal:What have you seen so far at COP and how are you
Wanjira Mathai:Yeah, well, the good news first, I think there
Wanjira Mathai:feeling?
Wanjira Mathai:has been a significant acknowledgement that nature is a
Wanjira Mathai:big part of the climate solution. A commitment to halt
Wanjira Mathai:and slow deforestation by 2030 is crucially important and
Wanjira Mathai:backed with real finance. So that's really good news. We saw
Wanjira Mathai:also the methane pledge, which is important.
Amy Martin:These pledges Wanjira mentioned, one about
Amy Martin:preserving forests and one on reducing methane emissions, were
Amy Martin:sort of like side deals made by big groups of countries at COP.
Amy Martin:They weren't part of the official negotiations here, but
Amy Martin:they were still significant in terms of ambition and potential
Amy Martin:impact. The US and China also issued a joint declaration
Amy Martin:mapping out common goals and establishing an ongoing working
Amy Martin:group for enhancing climate action in the 2020s. But when it
Amy Martin:comes to the work of the conference itself, Wanjira says
Amy Martin:it's harder to find things to celebrate.
Wanjira Mathai:We came here with a great hope that 1.5
Wanjira Mathai:degrees increase would be the general direction of travel. I
Wanjira Mathai:think we can agree that is still the consensus that we need to
Wanjira Mathai:get to 1.5 but it's so tragic that there are such efforts to
Wanjira Mathai:scuttle that.
Wanjira Mathai:We need to be within a trajectory that gets us
Amy Martin:Those efforts show up in the form of lack of
Amy Martin:effort. Lack of ambition in the "nationally determined
Amy Martin:to 1.5 because the alternatives, essentially is a death sentence.
Amy Martin:contributions," or NDCs. That's the system created by the Paris
Amy Martin:Agreement, in which countries are supposed to make their own
Amy Martin:emissions reduction plans and then report back to the whole
Amy Martin:group. There's been some progress sorting out some of the
Amy Martin:technical details around how these get reported, but the
Amy Martin:plans themselves are still woefully inadequate.
Amy Martin:We don't quite appreciate that. It is about life and death.
Amy Martin:We're still on a pathway that will get us to 2.7, 2.8 whatever
Amy Martin:it is, it's not 1.5. We have to try harder, we have to do more.
Amy Martin:And when I say we, it is the big emitters. It is China. It is the
Amy Martin:US, it is Australia. Countries that have built their wealth and
Amy Martin:growth on the back of high emitting fuels have got to do
Amy Martin:the most. Simple as that.
Amy Martin:Another big topic at this COP is the old pledge made
Amy Martin:by the world's wealthiest countries to collectively
Amy Martin:deliver $100 billion each year to developing nations. Those
Amy Martin:funds were designated for climate adaptation and
Amy Martin:mitigation projects, by the way, not for loss and damage. That
Amy Martin:pledge was made in 2009 but it had never been fulfilled, and
Amy Martin:when Shola spoke with Wanjira, it was clear that it wasn't
Amy Martin:going to happen at COP26 either. Instead, the wealthy countries
Amy Martin:had announced that they would begin meeting the pledge in
Amy Martin:2023.
Shola Lawal:What has been your biggest eye roll moment here?
Wanjira Mathai:I think my biggest eye roll movement could
Wanjira Mathai:easily be the commitment to deliver climate finance by 2023.
Wanjira Mathai:I mean, how long will we continue pushing the ball
Wanjira Mathai:forward? So for 10 years we didn't make it, and then we come
Wanjira Mathai:and we say, 2023-again, push the ball forward. The rich economies
Wanjira Mathai:have still not addressed how they'll meet the shortfall. That
Wanjira Mathai:was a big eye roll moment. Every African should be rolling their
Wanjira Mathai:eyes.
Shola Lawal:First Minister Nicola Sturgeon, in one session
Shola Lawal:I was in, said, this is reparations. Do you agree with
Shola Lawal:that very controversial statement?
Wanjira Mathai:It's a controversial subject. But I
Wanjira Mathai:think that what people are trying to really say is that
Wanjira Mathai:there needs to be common but differentiated responsibility,
Wanjira Mathai:that there needs to be an acknowledgement that those who
Wanjira Mathai:have benefited from a high emitting, high carbon economy
Wanjira Mathai:ought to repair the damage they've caused. I don't think
Wanjira Mathai:there's anything controversial about that. In fact, it's coded
Wanjira Mathai:in the Paris Agreement, in in the justice elements, the fact
Wanjira Mathai:that we do have to acknowledge the disproportionate
Wanjira Mathai:responsibility of higher meeting economies, and the fact that
Wanjira Mathai:they cannot walk away. They cannot walk away from this mess
Wanjira Mathai:that they have created.
Amy Martin:Wanjira says there's nothing controversial about
Amy Martin:common but differentiated responsibilities, and it's true
Amy Martin:that every country that has signed on to the UNFCCC process
Amy Martin:has signed on to that principle. And that's nearly all of the
Amy Martin:countries in the world. But there is a vast ravine between
Amy Martin:the idea of common but differentiated responsibilities
Amy Martin:and its implementation, and many issues have gone missing in that
Amy Martin:ravine for 26 years. It comes down to the difference between
Amy Martin:saying a thing and doing it. One is much harder than the other.
Amy Martin:What day is it? I keep asking you. Today is Thursday. It's
Amy Martin:midday. I'm with Adelle Thomas again. What is your general
Amy Martin:feeling at this point in the conference?
Amy Martin:Dr. Adelle Thomas: My feeling now is actually one of
Amy Martin:anticipation.
Amy Martin:Dr. Adelle Thomas is a geographer from the University
Amy Martin:of the Bahamas and the global think tank Climate Analytics.
Amy Martin:She's helping to advise the alliance of small island states,
Amy Martin:or AOSIS, at this COP. And when I ask her, what's going on with
Amy Martin:loss and damage here on this second to last, officially
Amy Martin:scheduled day, she seems to be in a good mood.
Amy Martin:Dr. Adelle Thomas: We've seen some coming together of small
Amy Martin:islands and the G77 group. So it's good to see that there's
Amy Martin:some strengthening of different groups coming together, and
Amy Martin:we'll see what that looks like in the decision text.
Amy Martin:The G77 is a group of 134 developing nations, which
Amy Martin:together represent over 5 billion people, more than 60% of
Amy Martin:all humans on Earth. So their support adds a lot of heft to
Amy Martin:the loss and damage proposals being made here in the final
Amy Martin:days of COP26. Now it's up to the presidency, Alok Sharma and
Amy Martin:a team of advisors to review all of the proposals and try to mash
Amy Martin:them together into a final agreement.
Amy Martin:Dr. Adelle Thomas: So they collect inputs from all of the
Amy Martin:different parties and groups, and they try to come up with
Amy Martin:some compromise that takes into account everyone's wants and so
Amy Martin:everyone's disappointed. But that's how it works, like
Amy Martin:iterations of this draft text, and we try to get it to some
Amy Martin:point where we can agree upon.
Amy Martin:That sounds exhausting.
Amy Martin:Dr. Adelle Thomas: I can imagine that it is. Exhausting and
Amy Martin:thankless, maybe. Because you're never going to be able to please
Amy Martin:everyone, right? Once everyone is upset, then that's a good
Amy Martin:outcome.
Amy Martin:So that's what will be happening into the wee hours
Amy Martin:of the morning on Thursday night, an attempt to come up
Amy Martin:with an agreement that is equally dissatisfying to all
Amy Martin:parties.
Amy Martin:Dr. Adelle Thomas: So it's exciting to see AOSIS and G77
Amy Martin:coming together on a shared position, even though it's
Amy Martin:really late in the game. So this is like a Hail Mary pass, like
Amy Martin:we're almost at the end tomorrow, and we're coming in
Amy Martin:strong with this. So it's exciting now to see how that
Amy Martin:will play out.
Amy Martin:I gotta say, I think this might be the most I've seen
Amy Martin:you smile. I don't want to read too much into it, but are you
Amy Martin:feeling a little hopeful that this might go through?
Amy Martin:Dr. Adelle Thomas: I'm feeling hopeful that this proposal will
Amy Martin:at least result in a better strengthening of the text. I
Amy Martin:mean, and as nerdy as this is, this is as exciting as it gets,
Amy Martin:right? So like Thursday afternoon, before Friday, we're
Amy Martin:coming in with this text on this kiosk, so it will be exciting to
Amy Martin:see how it plays out.
Alok Sharma:Very critical issues that are outstanding.
Alok Sharma:There's a lot of discussion.
Amy Martin:It's Friday. The latest version of the text is
Amy Martin:out and the Hail Mary pass has been dropped. The text for loss
Amy Martin:and damage has not been strengthened, as this big group
Amy Martin:of countries was pushing for. I'm in a scrum of reporters
Amy Martin:moving quickly through the hallway in the Blue Zone,
Amy Martin:there's a lot of pushing involved, as we all try to get a
Amy Martin:few seconds with the man in the middle, Alok Sharma, president
Amy Martin:of COP26.
Amy Martin:What's holding up loss and damage funding? Who's blocking
Amy Martin:it, who's blocking loss and damage?
Alok Sharma:Well, look, if you'll excuse me, a lot of
Alok Sharma:issues that have been raised. We had almost 38, we had actually
Alok Sharma:38 parties who spoke. We need to gather the thoughts of all of
Alok Sharma:those colleagues. And see how each responds...
Amy Martin:As often happens at COP, the parties couldn't reach
Amy Martin:an agreement within the scheduled time, so they've
Amy Martin:decided to extend the conference by one day. And at this point,
Amy Martin:I'm pretty tired of all the conflict avoidance and other
Amy Martin:niceties. I'm starting to get a little shouty.
Amy Martin:Mr. Kerry, are we gonna get funding for loss and damage in
Amy Martin:the final text?
John Kerry:I'm sure there'll be something.
Amy Martin:That was us climate envoy, John Kerry, and what he
Amy Martin:said was, "I'm sure there'll be something."
Amy Martin:Who's blocking loss and damage financing? Who's blocking it?
Frans Timmermans:I don't see anybody blocking it. I see that
Frans Timmermans:there's still differences of opinion which we need to bridge.
Amy Martin:And that was Frans Timmermans, representative from
Amy Martin:the European Union. You heard him a couple of episodes ago. He
Amy Martin:was the person holding up the picture of his one year old
Amy Martin:grandson. After this interaction with him, I met up with Dr.
Amy Martin:Saleemul Huq again.
Amy Martin:What's your response to that?
Amy Martin:Dr. Saleemul Huq: It's bullshit. They are blocking it.
Amy Martin:When you want to cut through the diplomatic double
Amy Martin:speak, Saleem is a good person to talk to, and this is not just
Amy Martin:his take. I spoke to many people with expertise on loss and
Amy Martin:damage at the conference, and they all backed up what he said.
Amy Martin:Progress was being blocked, primarily by the United States
Amy Martin:and the European Union.
Amy Martin:When they're in the negotiations trying to block it, and there
Amy Martin:are all these other countries who want it to go forward. Is
Amy Martin:there a point where people are just basically calling bullshit
Amy Martin:and saying, you're blocking it, and we're not going to have
Amy Martin:that?
Amy Martin:Dr. Saleemul Huq: That's where we are right now. That's why
Amy Martin:we're going to go on all night.
Amy Martin:And how do you keep it going on all night?
Amy Martin:Dr. Saleemul Huq: Till somebody gives up.
Amy Martin:It's just about, you're refusing to basically
Amy Martin:finalize the text.
Amy Martin:Dr. Saleemul Huq: That's right. That's how you win these
Amy Martin:arguments. Somebody has to concede.
Amy Martin:What do you think the odds are that the vulnerable
Amy Martin:countries will win this one tonight?
Amy Martin:Dr. Saleemul Huq: Not good, but we're going to fight.
Amy Martin:We'll have more after this short break.
Erika Janik:Hey everybody, this is Erika Janik, Threshold's
Erika Janik:Managing Editor. Did you know that we have a Threshold
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Alok Sharma:Right, dear friends, dear colleagues, I
Alok Sharma:think let's get started. We've had a lot of informal
Alok Sharma:discussions. I think let's get on with the informal stock
Alok Sharma:taking plenary.
Amy Martin:Welcome back to Threshold, I'm Amy Martin, and
Amy Martin:it's Saturday morning now. Alok Sharma is addressing the
Amy Martin:delegates in the big plenary hall.
Alok Sharma:So friends, we have reached a critical juncture
Alok Sharma:where we must come together and bring our hard work to a
Alok Sharma:successful conclusion. We know that the climate crisis is a
Alok Sharma:truly global challenge, and ensuring that COP26 outcomes
Alok Sharma:match the scale and urgency of our situation is our shared
Alok Sharma:responsibility. As I said at the start of this conference, we
Alok Sharma:will succeed or fail as one.
Amy Martin:What follows is a lot of commentary from the
Amy Martin:country delegates. Each comment is called an "intervention," and
Amy Martin:there are many. Some people give speeches that seem designed for
Amy Martin:news outlets back in their home countries. Others have technical
Amy Martin:details they want to speak to. It goes on for a good long
Amy Martin:while, but eventually everyone who wants to be recognized has
Amy Martin:had their turn, and Alok Sharma calls for a short recess. Some
Amy Martin:people leave the hall, but I had to fight a bit to get access to
Amy Martin:this room, and I'm not leaving now for fear they won't let me
Amy Martin:back in. And I'm glad I stayed put, because everything starts
Amy Martin:to get more interesting. U.S.Climate Envoy John Kerry had
Amy Martin:been sitting a few rows in front of me, but he stands up and
Amy Martin:moves across the hall to talk to someone, and as he moves, he
Amy Martin:collects a small swarm of people around him, delegates from other
Amy Martin:countries and their staffs and reporters. In short order, I
Amy Martin:join the hive. I'm too far back to hear what's going on, but
Amy Martin:Kerry is tall, so I can see him talking intently to someone
Amy Martin:while 30 or 40 people strain to listen. This is what's known as
Amy Martin:a huddle in COP parlance. Not an informal, informal, not a
Amy Martin:bilateral, but a pop up conversation between two
Amy Martin:countries or a group of countries, who are trying to
Amy Martin:work out some remaining points of friction. Soon, there are
Amy Martin:several huddles happening in different parts of this big
Amy Martin:hall. Frans Timmermans from the EU is in the middle of one of
Amy Martin:the other ones. After a few minutes of buzzing around the
Amy Martin:edges, a guard makes all of us reporters retreat to the back of
Amy Martin:the room, where I find my colleague Shola Lawal.
Amy Martin:Describe the room. What do you see?
Shola Lawal:It's a big room. Of course, we have all the screens,
Shola Lawal:but we also have world leaders gathered to one side of the
Shola Lawal:room. It looks like they're trying to, like, argue something
Shola Lawal:out.
Amy Martin:Shola had not been able to get into the morning
Amy Martin:session, but I'm thrilled that she managed to get in during the
Amy Martin:break, because it's not often that you get to see politics in
Amy Martin:action at this level.
Shola Lawal:I mean, we're in the conference of basically the
Shola Lawal:whole world. The whole world is gathered here. I mean, I love
Shola Lawal:being a fly on this wall. I love it so much.
Amy Martin:So do I. I'm so glad you're in here with me. Just
Amy Martin:feels like such an honor to get to watch this process getting
Amy Martin:worked out like right in front of us, and you look around and
Amy Martin:you see all these country names. There's Paraguay, there's Papua,
Amy Martin:New Guinea, there's Japan. And as I said over and over
Amy Martin:yesterday, the world is watching us. It feels like a really
Amy Martin:momentous occasion right now.
Shola Lawal:It does feel like a momentous occasion. And it's a
Shola Lawal:privilege to witnesse, really. It is.
Amy Martin:It is a privilege. But the problem is, we're not
Amy Martin:really sure what it is we're witnessing, like so many things
Amy Martin:at this conference, we're so close and yet still so far away.
Amy Martin:We can see the huddles, but we can't join them, so we don't
Amy Martin:know what's being discussed. The running theory among the
Amy Martin:reporters and observers we're chatting with is that it has
Amy Martin:something to do with a paragraph in the mitigation section of the
Amy Martin:agreement which calls for an end for most fossil fuel subsidies
Amy Martin:and the phasing out of coal. If it's accepted, that would be the
Amy Martin:strongest statement on fossil fuels of any COP agreement to
Amy Martin:date. But there's talk that China and India are raising
Amy Martin:objections.
Amy Martin:Okay, Kerry's coming our way.
Shola Lawal:Yeah, I see him.
Amy Martin:Giving people thumbs up. I noticed him like fist
Amy Martin:bumping people earlier. It's like he's actively, I don't know
Amy Martin:if I've ever seen like politics, like I'm watching the gears of
Amy Martin:politics turning right now.
Shola Lawal:Exactly, I can see the wheels turning. He's like,
Shola Lawal:let's go to this side and then this side and these guys have an
Shola Lawal:agreed yet? Okay, let's go talk to them.
Amy Martin:Yeah, exactly. Oh, he's gonna, he's talking to, I
Amy Martin:think that's the minister from China.
Shola Lawal:Oh, it's China. Yes, yes.
Amy Martin:These are the two biggest, two biggest emitters
Amy Martin:currently talking to it basically, yeah. And as you can
Amy Martin:see, like a huddle immediately forming, like a big one.
Shola Lawal:And the whole, yeah, the whole room has now
Shola Lawal:turned to this side.
Amy Martin:At some point, the US and China delegations exit
Amy Martin:the hall together through a back door. The official proceedings
Amy Martin:were supposed to resume at noon, then it was pushed back to 2:30
Amy Martin:and now it's three o'clock, and we're completely in the dark
Amy Martin:about what's going on and when things will restart.
Shola Lawal:Okay, I think we'll be here for a while.
Amy Martin:Yes.
Amy Martin:The story that unfolded next was a microcosm of the entire
conference experience:a mixture of confusion, a lot of waiting
conference experience:around and intense drama that left me with a bunch of
conference experience:conflicting thoughts and feelings. I want to walk you
conference experience:through what happened, not because the outcome of this last
conference experience:minute squabble was terribly consequential in and of itself,
conference experience:but because I think the story sheds some light on how things
conference experience:actually work at COP. So the rumors were correct, this drama
conference experience:was centered around the language on fossil fuel subsidies and
conference experience:phasing out coal. And to set the stage here, I need to rewind the
conference experience:clock 24 hours to the Friday version of this same meeting,
conference experience:when all the delegates are gathering to make comments on
conference experience:the draft text. U.S. Climate Envoy John Kerry specifically
conference experience:mentioned this particular paragraph in the mitigation
conference experience:section, which again calls for ending most fossil fuel
conference experience:subsidies and phasing out coal.
John Kerry:$2.5 trillion in the last five years, six years went
John Kerry:into subsidies for fossil fuel that's a definition of insanity.
John Kerry:We're allowing to feed the very problem we're here to try to
John Kerry:cure. It doesn't make sense. Those subsidies have to go, and
John Kerry:we're the largest oil and gas producer in the world, and we
John Kerry:have some of those subsidies, and President Biden has put in
John Kerry:legislation to get rid of them.
Amy Martin:So Kerry is supportive of this paragraph,
Amy Martin:and because the US is such a big emitter, that's a big deal here.
John Kerry:Phasing out unabated coal and inefficient fossil fuel
John Kerry:subsidies must stay, that language must stay. Unabated
John Kerry:coal, how could we possibly, in 2021 knowing what the evidence
John Kerry:is, be wishy washy on that subject.
Amy Martin:To many people in the room, there was already a
Amy Martin:lot of wishy washy stuff in this paragraph. A lot of countries
Amy Martin:didn't want the words "unabated" or "inefficient" in there. Those
Amy Martin:are wiggle words that allow for potential loopholes. Here's the
Amy Martin:delegate from Costa Rica.
Costa Rica:We understand that this is a systemic change in our
Costa Rica:economies, and for this reason, we also want clear languages on
Costa Rica:the need to eliminate all fossil fuel subsidies, not only the
Costa Rica:inefficient ones, and to accelerate the phase out of coal
Costa Rica:power.
Amy Martin:So that was Friday. Delegates had expressed
Amy Martin:consensus around this paragraph. It was weaker than many wanted,
Amy Martin:but stronger than anything that had been said on fossil fuels
Amy Martin:before COP, which let's take a moment to note, is bananas,
Amy Martin:considering that the whole problem here is fossil fuels.
Amy Martin:But back to the story. Now we're here on Saturday afternoon,
Amy Martin:truly in the 11th hour, and the rumor is India and China want to
Amy Martin:further water down this section. We're hours past the time when
Amy Martin:the meeting was supposed to restart, but Alok Sharma doesn't
Amy Martin:want to call the meeting back to order until he's sure the
Amy Martin:agreement is going to be accepted by all the parties.
Amy Martin:There's no voting here. It's not like he steps up to the podium
Amy Martin:and says, "all in favor, say aye." He needs to get that aye
Amy Martin:from everybody ahead of time before official proceedings
Amy Martin:restart, or he risks someone raising an objection and
Amy Martin:refusing to adopt the proposal, and potentially the whole
Amy Martin:agreement falls apart. Finally, the huddles start to disperse,
Amy Martin:delegates return to their seats, and Sharma calls the group back
Amy Martin:together.
Alok Sharma:So first, I now invite the COP to adopt the
Alok Sharma:decision entitled Glasgow climate pact.
Amy Martin:He proposes that the text be adopted, and then
Amy Martin:there's a pause.
Alok Sharma:I see China is seeking an intervention. I
Alok Sharma:invite China to take the floor.
Amy Martin:The Chinese representative says in so many
Amy Martin:words that they have proposed a change to the text, but he
Amy Martin:doesn't say exactly what the change is.
Alok Sharma:Thank you, China. I see India wishes to take the
Alok Sharma:floor. India, you have the floor.
Amy Martin:The representative from India reads out the
Amy Martin:proposed change.
India:...call upon parties to escalate the development...
Amy Martin:They want the text to say "accelerating efforts
Amy Martin:towards the phase down of unabated coal power and phase
Amy Martin:out of inefficient fossil fuel subsidies." So instead of
Amy Martin:phasing coal out, it would be phased down. This is the drama
Amy Martin:that was presumably playing out in these huddles now being
Amy Martin:brought forward and into the record.
Alok Sharma:Thank you to China, India for their interventions.
Alok Sharma:Dear delegates, you have a revised proposal for the
Alok Sharma:paragraphs that were set out by Minister Yadav. Could I ask
Alok Sharma:whether distinguished delegates, having heard the proposal, is
Alok Sharma:this proposal agreeable to you? I have an intervention from
Alok Sharma:Switzerland. Switzerland, I give you the floor.
Switzerland:Thank you, Mr. President.
Amy Martin:Switzerland is part of the environmental integrity
Amy Martin:group, or eig, a small group of countries that negotiate
Amy Martin:together.
Switzerland:On behalf of the EIG, we would like to express
Switzerland:our profound disappointment that the language that we have agreed
Switzerland:on, on coal and fossil fuel subsidies has been further
Switzerland:watered down as a result of an intransparent process. Let us be
Switzerland:clear, we do not need to phase down but to phase out coal and
Switzerland:fossil fuel subsidies. The EIG does not want to risk that we
Switzerland:leave Glasgow without an outcome. Therefore, we did not
Switzerland:oppose this additional last minute change, weakening the
Switzerland:outcome of Glasgow, but we are disappointed both about the
Switzerland:process and about this last minute change. This will not
Switzerland:bring us closer to 1.5 but make it more difficult to reach it.
Alok Sharma:Thank you.
Amy Martin:There is big, long applause in the room. A lot of
Amy Martin:people are mad, really mad. Many countries here wanted the
Amy Martin:language in this paragraph to be even stronger than what they had
Amy Martin:consented to previously, and now it was being made weaker at the
Amy Martin:last minute. But if they object to this, then the whole
Amy Martin:agreement falls apart, and all of this work would be for
Amy Martin:naught, not just the two grueling weeks here in Glasgow,
Amy Martin:but the years of effort leading up to this point. I can feel the
Amy Martin:tension crackling through the room. It feels like the entire
Amy Martin:process could implode. That's happened at previous COPs.
Amy Martin:Here's the representative from Mexico.
Mexico:We all have remaining concerns that we're told we
Mexico:could not reopen the text. Mexico, for example, believes
Mexico:the language on human rights should have been strengthened,
Mexico:and are very, very disappointed that such demands were not
Mexico:heard, while others can still ask to water down their
Mexico:promises. Thank you.
Alok Sharma:Thank you. Thank you to Mexico for that
Alok Sharma:intervention.
Amy Martin:So people are upset both about the content and the
Amy Martin:process here. This isn't the way things are supposed to work.
Amy Martin:These kinds of changes should have been proposed much earlier
Amy Martin:so everyone would have a chance to comment on them. In fact,
Amy Martin:that's what they were told they had to do. Here's the
Amy Martin:representative from Fiji.
Fiji:A few days ago, in fact, about four days ago, when we
Fiji:talked about some language on loss and damage, we were told
Fiji:that we're introducing something at the last minute. It's rather
Fiji:ironic that just about two hours ago, we discussed the text, and
Fiji:now there's an amendment being made to that, and that I would
Fiji:call last minute without any due process being followed.
Amy Martin:Person after person took to the floor to voice their
Amy Martin:disappointment, immense disappointment, profound
Amy Martin:disappointment. One of the things I learned at COP is that
Amy Martin:these are the words diplomats use to express rage. But no one
Amy Martin:said they were going to walk away. As the interventions
Amy Martin:rolled in, it seemed like the consensus was going to hold.
Amy Martin:This is the representative from Liechtenstein.
Liechtenstein:We believe weakening the language regarding
Liechtenstein:the phase out of fossil fuels, especially coal, is nor
Liechtenstein:ambitious nor in line with reaching the 1.5 degrees
Liechtenstein:temperature goal. For the greater good, we must swallow
Liechtenstein:this bitter pill. Thank you. And back to you, Mr. President.
Amy Martin:Like I said earlier, watching all of this play out, I
Amy Martin:had a mixture of reactions. Part of me was outraged that a few
Amy Martin:big emitters had been able to affect the process and weaken
Amy Martin:the text in this way, and at the same time, I was really moved by
Amy Martin:repeated calls to go ahead and approve the text anyway, to
Amy Martin:swallow that bitter pill and not let it poison everything. This
Amy Martin:is Tina Stege from the Marshall Islands.
Fiji:Thank you, President. On behalf of the Marshall Islands,
Fiji:I wish to read into the record our profound disappointment with
Fiji:the change in the language on coal from phase out to phase
Fiji:down. I ask that this be reflected in the report of this
Fiji:meeting. This commitment on coal had been a bright spot in this
Fiji:package. It was one of the things we were hoping to carry
Fiji:out of here and back home with pride, and it hurts deeply to
Fiji:see that bright spot dim. We accept this change with the
Fiji:greatest reluctance. We do so only, and I really want to
Fiji:stress only, because there are critical elements of this
Fiji:package that people in my country need as a lifeline for
Fiji:their future. Thank you.
Amy Martin:Alok Sharma listens politely to each objection,
Amy Martin:thanking each person for their comments, and eventually it was
Amy Martin:again his turn to speak.
Alok Sharma:May I just say to all delegates, I apologize for
Alok Sharma:the way this process has unfolded, and I'm deeply sorry.
Alok Sharma:I also understand the deep disappointment, but I think, as
Alok Sharma:you have noted, it's also vital that we protect this package.
Amy Martin:He drops his head, clearly fighting back tears, and
Amy Martin:when the delegates realize what's happening, they begin to
Amy Martin:applaud for him, willing him on. It feels like applause for him,
Amy Martin:but also for the cause here, like the delegates are saying,
Amy Martin:we cannot and we will not let this fall apart. Many people
Amy Martin:rise to their feet, and Sharma frowns and motions for them to
Amy Martin:sit back down in classically English way.
Alok Sharma:Delegates, thank you. Thank you, friends. We
Alok Sharma:should be. We need to proceed. Thank you very much.
Amy Martin:Then he regains his composure and moves on.
Alok Sharma:I propose that the revised proposal is adopted as
Alok Sharma:orally amended, a revised version, a written version will
Alok Sharma:be issued shortly. Hearing no objections, it is so decided.
Amy Martin:It's done. The Glasgow climate pact is adopted.
Amy Martin:It's not strong enough, clear enough, or decisive enough to
Amy Martin:meet this moment, but it is something, and something is
Amy Martin:much, much better than nothing. The meeting continues for a long
Amy Martin:time. Speeches are made, all kinds of things need to be read
Amy Martin:into the record and approved. Shola had stepped out hours
Amy Martin:earlier and hadn't been able to get back in. So finally, I make
Amy Martin:my way out of the hall, say my goodbyes to her, and then I go
Amy Martin:meet up with Dr Saleemul Huq one last time.
Amy Martin:What did you think about the watering down of phase out to
Amy Martin:phase down?
Amy Martin:Dr. Saleemul Huq: I think the language issue of the change in
Amy Martin:wording is much less important than the fact that they allowed
Amy Martin:India to change language at the last minute, and they told us we
Amy Martin:couldn't do that. Right? We wanted to do that. We were told
Amy Martin:you can't do that. So again, it's some countries get to do
Amy Martin:things, and others don't. And the others include us, the poor,
Amy Martin:vulnerable countries, we never get our way. We never get to
Amy Martin:overrule other people. We are always the ones who get
Amy Martin:overruled. That's how this works.
Amy Martin:I was and still am confused about what happened
Amy Martin:during this final plenary. Why did Alok Sharma allow for this
Amy Martin:last minute change? It seems like he just got bullied into
Amy Martin:it. Two big countries decided to object to some text at a moment
Amy Martin:when they knew it would be very difficult for the group to fight
Amy Martin:them, and they got their way. But if that's basically the
Amy Martin:story, I want to understand why there aren't better protections
Amy Martin:in place to prevent that sort of thing.
Amy Martin:Dr. Saleemul Huq: This is all about power, both financial and
Amy Martin:political, and it's the job of the presidency to have a
Amy Martin:balancing act. And they failed. They just, and I'm not blaming
Amy Martin:Alok Sharma, personally, he's a very nice person, I'm sure he
Amy Martin:fought. He got railroaded as well.
Amy Martin:And then there's loss and damage. Saleem had
Amy Martin:called the odds correctly on that the text that the small
Amy Martin:island developing states and the G77 had been pushing for did not
Amy Martin:make it into the final draft.
Amy Martin:Dr. Saleemul Huq: So yesterday, when we had the second draft
Amy Martin:text on Friday, it had language that had been proposed by 138
Amy Martin:developing countries representing 5 billion people on
Amy Martin:the planet, asking for the Glasgow Facility for Loss and
Amy Martin:Damage Finance was in the text. The final version we got today
Amy Martin:and Saturday, it has disappeared at the instance of one country,
Amy Martin:United States of America, and the COP presidency copped out to
Amy Martin:them and deleted it. Absolutely arrogant behavior by the rich
Amy Martin:countries, rich polluting countries. You're not just rich,
Amy Martin:they're polluters. They just don't want to take any
Amy Martin:responsibility whatsoever. It's a fuck you to the victims of
Amy Martin:their pollution. In our face.
Amy Martin:Adelle Thomas was already on her way back home,
Amy Martin:but I sent her a message on WhatsApp asking her for her
Amy Martin:thoughts, and she replied, "terrible text." And what about
Amy Martin:the core issue here, the central goal of this conference and the
Amy Martin:entire UN climate negotiation process, holding global
Amy Martin:temperature rise to no more than 1.5 degrees Celsius over pre
Amy Martin:industrial levels? Here's how Alok Sharma characterized it
Amy Martin:speaking to the press after the conference ended.
Alok Sharma:We have kept 1.5 alive, but I would still say
Alok Sharma:that the pulse of 1.5 is weak.
Amy Martin:This is obviously a less than ideal outcome, and
Amy Martin:perhaps listening to our reporting from COP and the
Amy Martin:frustrations of the people we followed here, you might be
Amy Martin:tempted to condemn this entire process as worthless, but I
Amy Martin:think that would be the wrong conclusion. Clearly, there are
Amy Martin:huge flaws in the global climate negotiations, but it's important
Amy Martin:to remember that this is the first time the world has tried
Amy Martin:to tackle something this huge altogether.There was no pre
Amy Martin:existing structure for this level of species wide
Amy Martin:collaboration. We're making that up as we go along, and it
Amy Martin:shouldn't surprise us that it's a bumpy journey, the fact that
Amy Martin:almost every nation on earth is involved here is itself a
Amy Martin:tremendous victory. So after watching it for two weeks, I
Amy Martin:want this process to be much, much better, but I don't want it
Amy Martin:to die, because then we just have to start over, and we don't
Amy Martin:have time for that.
Amy Martin:To wrap up our COP26 coverage, I want to take you back to a night
Amy Martin:midway through the conference. I'd spent most of the day
Amy Martin:following the first big protest. Now it was dark, I was cold and
Amy Martin:hungry, and my feet were tired, but I had something I needed to
Amy Martin:see before I went to find the rest of the Threshold team and
Amy Martin:some dinner.
Amy Martin:Oh, there it is. There it is.
Amy Martin:It's the Glasgow Climate Clock, and it measures the time we have
Amy Martin:left before we've committed ourselves to a world of more
Amy Martin:than one and a half degrees of warming.
Amy Martin:I'm looking at it now. It's projected onto an old steeple, a
Amy Martin:really beautiful old steeple, actually here at this
Amy Martin:intersection.
Amy Martin:There are versions of this clock installed in several locations
Amy Martin:around the world. This one uses this steeple as a sort of tower
Amy Martin:shaped canvas. It's bathed in red and blue lights with numbers
Amy Martin:projected onto it in bright white light. And the numbers are
Amy Martin:moving, counting down the time to 1.5.
Amy Martin:Seven years, 259 days, eight hours, 42 minutes, 31 seconds.
Amy Martin:That's pretty intense, especially after spending the
Amy Martin:day at the protest.
Amy Martin:Seven years, 259 days. That was in November 2021 as we finalize
Amy Martin:this episode, we're down to seven years, 30 something days.
Amy Martin:I've seen the clock online before and it's still really
Amy Martin:intense to look at it to watch the the seconds tick away. Seven
Amy Martin:years, 259 days is nothing. That will disappear so quickly.
Amy Martin:We're living through an extraordinary moment in human
Amy Martin:history, the precious remaining window of time before we've
Amy Martin:locked in truly catastrophic levels of global heating. But
Amy Martin:it's hard to actually feel that reality. We're all just moving
Amy Martin:through our lives, another day, another year, another climate
Amy Martin:conference, and the climate clock ticks on. I think part of
Amy Martin:the reason we don't feel that reality is that it's such a
Amy Martin:frightening reality to feel. We naturally recoil from it, but if
Amy Martin:we can face our fears and take in the truth about where we are
Amy Martin:in this timeline, then we can start to write the next chapter
Amy Martin:of this story. Because this clock, unlike most clocks, can
Amy Martin:actually move in two directions. If we reduce our emissions, we
Amy Martin:can add time to it. Our actions can help to add years to this
Amy Martin:clock, and we can use those years to accelerate the
Amy Martin:transition away from fossil fuels, flatten the temperature
Amy Martin:curve and eventually start bending it back down. We need to
Amy Martin:envision ourselves doing that, to imagine ourselves standing in
Amy Martin:front of the climate clock, watching the time to 1.5 growing
Amy Martin:instead of shrinking. And then we need to go make that happen.
Rachel Kyte:So we're in uncharted territory, and we have
Rachel Kyte:to embrace it. We can't sort of shy away from it.
Amy Martin:This is Rachel Kyte, and she's just one of several
Amy Martin:climate thought leaders we'll be talking to in our final episode.
Amy Martin:That's next time on Threshold.
Jessica Becker:I'm Jessica from Madison, Wisconsin. Reporting
Jessica Becker:for this season of Threshold was funded by the Park Foundation,
Jessica Becker:the High Stakes Foundation, the Pleiades Foundation, NewsMatch,
Jessica Becker:the Llewellyn Foundation, and listeners. This work depends on
Jessica Becker:people who believe in it and choose to support it. People
Jessica Becker:like you. Join our community at thresholdpodcast.org.
Amy Martin:This episode of Threshold was reported by Shola
Amy Martin:Lawal and me Amy Martin, with production help from Nick Mott,
Amy Martin:Erika Janik and Sam Moore. The music is by Todd Sickafoose. The
Amy Martin:rest of the Threshold team is Eva Kalea, Deneen Weiske and
Amy Martin:Caysi Simpson. Our intern is Emery Veilleux. Thanks to Sally
Amy Martin:Deng, Maggy Contreras, Hana Carey, Dan Carreno, Luca
Amy Martin:Borghese, Julia Barry, Kara Cromwell, Katie deFusco,
Amy Martin:Caroline Kurtz and Gabby Piamonte. Special thanks to
Amy Martin:Becca Richie, Damon Matthews, Rachel Waldholz, Carolyn Beeler,
Amy Martin:Taliah Farnsworth, Christopher Preston, Leslie Scott, Katy
Amy Martin:Scott, Joseph Harvey and Abe.
