Shownotes
In this powerful episode of "Talk Of The County," host Kenneth Wilson leads an insightful conversation on Black history and the evolution of the civil rights movement with eminent guests Dr. Hasan Jeffries and Kevin Boyce. The discussion probes into the educational disparities, media influences, and social justice activism in the context of Black history.
Dr. Jeffries sheds light on the uneven understanding of civil rights history across different regions, pinpointing the underlying issues of racism and inequality that persist in Ohio. The panel talks about systemic racism and its increased visibility amongst students, particularly following the George Floyd protests in 2020. Dr. Jeffries emphasizes the significance of grassroots movements and the role of everyday people in shaping civil rights activism, which is often overshadowed by the media's portrayal.
A poignant segment of the conversation delves into how the media historically treated Martin Luther King Jr. and Malcolm X, discussing the complexities of their representations. After King's assassination, Dr. Jeffries notes a shift in public opinion that led to a sanitized narrative that conformed to the status quo, often glossing over King's message of economic and social justice.
Kenneth Wilson turns the spotlight on the media's power in crafting historical narratives, influencing how racial issues are perceived, and the dynamic nature of racism. Guest Kevin Boyce, while sharing his personal experience of being maced during protests, acknowledges a new era in American history marked by George Floyd's death.
The dialogue then broadens to cover the significance of diversity, equality, and inclusion in society. Boyce stresses the need for fair opportunities based on qualifications, not identity, advocating for a more just and equitable world.
Throughout the conversation, Boyce and Dr. Jeffries acknowledge recent social upheavals that have generated fresh opportunities while meeting resistance from beneficiaries of the existing power structures. The episode also explores the polarizing political landscape post-Obama's presidency, the backlash from the MAGA movement, and the politicization of the Tea Party.
The 2010 midterm elections come under scrutiny as a critical juncture influencing the current political atmosphere. The guests discuss the sense of neglect felt by Black men within traditional political ideologies, leading some towards far-right allegiances. They stress the importance of organization and setting tangible expectations for political change, highlighting the community's overemphasis on the mere act of voting.
COVID-19's impact on exacerbating health disparities and emphasizing the necessity for minority business loans is also broached. Boyce and Dr. Jeffries speak on the ongoing struggle for racial health equality, tracing its roots back to previous civil rights and black power movements.
Kevin Boyce, discussing voting's significance, likens it to preparing ingredients for cookies – essential but requiring patience and commitment. He urges for a collective black political agenda, emphasizing electoral participation for influencing government decisions.
As the conversation progresses, the topic of homeownership, education, and community engagement surfaces, framed as success ingredients and preparations for seizing opportunities. Dr. Jeffries discusses the diminishing prospects for the younger generation in the wake of student debt and limited job opportunities.
Both guests lament the exploitation of fear and racism in politics, pointing out its dangerous application from border crises to negative ad campaigns. Special attention is given to barbershops and beauty shops as influential community hubs for discourse and collective decision-making.
The episode wraps up with reflections on personal growth and the importance of inclusivity. Dr. Jeffries and Boyce highlight the power of each vote by citing significant electoral impacts such as the loss of a Senate candidate in Wisconsin due to a narrow margin. Dr. Jeffries advocates open-mindedness towards difficult truths to incite change at various societal and personal levels.
Commissioner Boyce shares his experience as the first African American county commissioner in Franklin County, emphasizing the potential for change that such positions hold and the importance of his legacy. The increase in African American county commissioners since 2016 is celebrated, pointing to progress in representation.
The topic of mentorship is detailed as crucial for the advancement of underrepresented groups, illustrating that mentors come in various forms and that such relationships can profoundly impact professional and personal development.
Top Takeaways
1. Education on Civil Rights: The significance of regional differences in the understanding of civil rights history and the importance of comprehensive education to address racism and inequality in society.
2. Media Representation: The impact of media portrayal on public perception of civil rights leaders like Martin Luther King and Malcolm X, including the oversimplified narratives that often overlook their radical and complex legacies.
3. The Evolution of Social Justice: The shifting nature of racism and the need for continuous dialogue about racial issues, especially in light of the recent resurgence of racial justice movements such as those following George Floyd's death.
4. Diverse and Inclusive Practices: The imperative for diversity, equality, and inclusion in all areas of society, and the responsibility of organizations to provide equal opportunities based on merit rather than identity.
5. Political Engagement: The critical role of voting in societal change, but also the importance of organizing, setting realistic expectations for political change, and holding elected officials accountable after elections.
6. Community and Organizational Influence: The power of community gathering places like barbershops and beauty shops as focal points for discussion, decision-making, and political organization.
7. Every Vote Counts: The tangible impact that even a small percentage of the electorate can have on election outcomes and the importance of civic participation.
8. Visibility and Representation: The increase of African American representation in roles such as county commissioners and the value of breaking new ground to pave the way for future leaders.
9. Mentorship Matters: The importance of mentorship in providing guidance and opportunities for individuals from diverse backgrounds, with an emphasis on support and visibility as pathway creators.
10. Community-Level Change: Encouragement for everyday people to become active participants in creating change, whether it be through mentorship, local politics, or small acts that contribute to a more inclusive and just society.
Memorable Moments
00:00 Regional differences in civil rights education impact students.
10:02 Dr. King focused on poverty and equity.
12:37 Dr. Jeffries discusses media shaping history.
16:51 Success is about equality, opportunities and change.
22:42 New chapter brings progress and opposition.
28:43 Identified with parties, both guilty of issues.
35:20 Prepare and commit for successful outcomes.
41:52 Reduced future opportunities for children due to debt.
46:01 Many people aggressively support conservative immigration reform.
51:52 Reflections on being the first black man in office.
58:19 Different mentorship models: visibility, career navigation important.
59:45 Mentorship is crucial; anyone can be one.
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Transcripts
Good afternoon. I'm here to kick off another episode of Talk Of The County. We're here today, to talk about Black History, which we all know is American history, focusing in on aspects of the civil rights movement. Here with me are the president of the Franklin County Board of Commissioners, Kevin Boyce and Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries, The Ohio State University History professor. Mhmm. Correct. So we are going to have a a relaxed, conversation. Again, the purpose of, Talk Of The County is to inform, inspire, and sprinkle in some entertainment.
Kenneth Wilson [:But we had to talk about a very serious matter, and that is, the importance and the significance of black history, not only in Franklin County, but our nation. Dr. Jeffries, you've been, teaching the civil rights movement for several decades. I know you've taught it, the University of Alabama and now you're at the Ohio State University. Have you noticed, a difference here, amongst the student body, at Ohio State versus the University of Alabama given a regional difference. Although both schools I know draw, students from all over the country.
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:No. There's certainly a A regional flavor, to the students, at Ohio State versus University of Alabama or or or even just Students in the Midwest and the Northeast and the West and and in the South, which I've encountered in in various ways whether they're in the classroom outside of. Part of it has to do with the focus on civil rights education that they receive before they ever get to college. And what does that look like? For example, students here in Ohio, imagine themselves as it relates to civil rights history as being on the right side of history. The civil rights movement, segregation, white supremacy, Jim Crow was something that happened down there in places like Alabama. And we were the ones who rode in on the white horse to help Saving the name. Mhmm. And that colors both how they understand the problems that African Americans were facing, during the civil rights era, not just in a place like Alabama, but also here in Ohio, Cleveland, Columbus, Cincinnati, and the rural parts of Ohio, But also the solutions, that they go after.
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:If you think the problem of racism and inequality is something that just happens down there, You're unwilling to look
Kenneth Wilson [:in the backyard, your own backyard, at the problems that exist here and how inequality has been perpetuated over the years. Yes. Exactly. You know, George Floyd's murder occurred in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Absolutely. You know, so It's it's not it's not regional, but it exists everywhere. And it always has existed everywhere.
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:That's that's also critical aspect of studying the civil rights movement and just studying black protest is that it's not a A moment in time. Right? The problem of inequality existed at this particular moment in time. It's always been here. It's part of the nation's founding, And we haven't separated from we haven't solved the problem of it. So that's the work that we have to do today and going forward.
Kenneth Wilson [:Today, do you believe your students, since the weight of structural racism.
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:Yeah. You know, students' understanding of the problems that they Facing the problems faced in America. So change over time. Right? But we are in a particular moment where The students in my classes today are far more aware of the problems of structural inequality, the problems of systemic racism than any students I've taught in the last 2 decades. And we saw that manifested in the summer of 2020, with millions of young people take to the streets protesting the murder of George Floyd and Ahmaud Arbery and Breonna Taylor And calling for justice for the victims of police violence, but they were also calling for an anti systemic racism. We haven't heard that before. So they were keenly aware of the problems of police violence as they related to systems and structures embedded in our society. So they are, in this particular generation, more informed, than I've seen students in previous generations.
Kenneth Wilson [:Yeah. I think NWA, articulated it different, but it was a realization, from The eyes of, young people grew up in South Central Absolutely. Los Angeles and they expressed it through rap.
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:Well, I mean, one of the things that I mean, we have to we have to speak honestly and candidly. Right? Like, black folk have been calling for an end to systemic racism since 16/19. Right. The labor thing ain't really working out for us. We might need to end the system. Right? But what was so unique about 2020 is the first time we saw young white people Calling in large mass numbers for an end to the same thing. So that's one of the things that made that particular moment unique. And when we think about the students who we're encountering now At Ohio State, you know, they're part of that collective.
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:Right? And so, collectively, we see more people who are consciously aware more young people who are consciously aware of the problems of inequality.
Kenneth Wilson [:Yeah. Further, Dr. Jeffries, how do you think the media, The way the the media has handled the social the civil rights movement both, during the sixties. The the way it was captured, you know, the the way where you can go from 1 news channel to another on current affairs and see the difference, of ideology and opinion. How do you think that, the media coverage of the civil rights movement impacted the public perception at that time. And how do you think that in retrospect, how does the media handle race relations today. Mhmm. Well, journalists, media broadly defined Are the 1st drafter of history.
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:Right? So how they capture, how they interpret civil rights history in this moment. Civil rights activism in And in this in this instance, really colors how future generations would understand what the movement was, What the movement was about, who were its leaders. And we know that during the in this fifties and sixties, that journalists were looking for a shorthand. They were looking for civil rights made easy. Right? And so in terms of interpretation. So, You know, the civil the leaders of the civil rights movement were the ones who were standing in a pulpit behind a microphone. Civil rights movement activism was that which was most visible. It was it was marches and demonstrations.
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:And, unfortunately, what gets lost in that Are the many everyday people, the women, the working class folk,
Kenneth Wilson [:the poor folk, the sharecroppers,
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:The the the the people who are living in in urban poverty who are organizing for change, they get lost. The grassroots organizing work. Right? The stuff that doesn't appear on camera, that gets lost as well. That was lost in those initial, that initial reporting. And that has influenced how we understand not only the movement then, but also the Efforts to create change now because we're still looking for the Dr. King. We're still looking for a preacher and a microphone As opposed to looking to everyday people, as opposed to looking to union organizers, as opposed to looking to young people, right, for where movement Activism continues to be. So that 1st draft didn't get it quite right, and we're still living with the consequences of that today.
Kenneth Wilson [:Right. Do you, mhmm, in retrospect, feel as though the media really treated Martin Luther King And much differently than treating Malcolm X?
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:Well, yeah. 1, you know well well, first, you know, the We often pit King against Malcolm X. Right? And it's like, well, King, at a certain point, is the most reviled Civil rights activist in the United States forget about Malcolm. Right? And we forget Malcolm is assassinated, but so is Dr. King. Right? I mean, the the Dr. King is no hero. Right? So certainly in the south, but even at a particular moment in 1968 when he comes out against the Vietnam War or 1967 when he comes out against the Vietnam War, He is lambasted. Right? By not just conservative media, but also liberal media. Right? For his critique of the United States and foreign policy.
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:But One of the things that then happens is he dies. Right? And at that moment, you know, April 3, 1968, Dr. King is the most reviled civil rights activist in the United States. April 4th, he's he's assassinated. April 5th, he's now a hero. In part because his legacy and his image can be crafted in a way that supports the status quo, And his radicalization can be set aside.
Kenneth Wilson [:Right? And in a
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:very real way, we've seen that Dr. King has been both deradicalized and deracialized, Frozen on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial. And we've done something similar to Malcolm X. Right? Like, we we've moved away from his radical calls, for black solidarity. And we have him rejecting the nation of Islam and moving into sort of this color blind way, when in fact, he still clung To the idea that black folk have to come together 1st and deal with white supremacy before they can deal with
Kenneth Wilson [:anything else. In in you know, on that note, Dr. King and his, later days began to focus on poverty and economic, issues, of of segregation and and that it the remnants of that and and the impact it had on both social and economic justice. And that they are inseparable twins, which is one of my favorite quotes that, you know, the 2 Go together and, you know, and it he went was in Memphis to to organize sanitation workers. And that really made him a a threat to a lot of people because he was talking about economics and he was talking about, Equity. Yeah. Not just equality, and we're just talking about equity. And that's always, even to this day, seen as a threat. And now, you see it in a different form.
Kenneth Wilson [:First, it was We don't need critical race theory in our schools. Then that went away now. We don't need DEI, in the fabric of, institutions, our organizations. And my Dr. Jefferson, it hasn't even been 5 years President Bois, can you I mean, tell me how could we have overcome, the the realization that, that we saw, from from the United States In in the light of what happened, to George Floyd, Brianna Taylor, all of the things that that were part of an awakening. And you yourself was on the front lines and experienced, physically being maced. So talk about and no one better than you to talk about that as the founder of, the Ohio's Own African American Bank, by the way. But
Kevin Boyce [:Well, welcome back. Well, 2 2 thing I gotta go back to, just capture the 1. What makes you think I know what NWA is? How'd you doing? Hey. Yeah. Okay.
Kenneth Wilson [:I got I got you got a little word. I got a little word. Yeah. Yeah. He got me. He got me. He got me. He gonna make me Failing out on Talk of the County.
Kevin Boyce [:That's what
Kenneth Wilson [:I was trying to do. I was like, looking for Lance. I was like, okay. Because
Kevin Boyce [:I do it though. I think
Kenneth Wilson [:I almost had to add a cuss jar to the The Talk Of The County. I I have my cassette saying, you know, poverty here.
Kevin Boyce [:He did. I think Dr. Jeffries says something that I that really, hit the chord with And that's, the notion that the media are the 1st drafters of history often. And that is A terrifying notion in my mind. And because because, the media today is rooted in subjectivity to me. It you know, historically, journalism was designed to provide information and, to educate and to inform. Today, and and even when it comes to racial and, American history, it's always been told with subjectivity of What I would describe as rose colored glasses, you know, seeing through rose colored glasses. So that being said, I I really feel like we live in a time, where It's hard to say whether or not you know, I think about the softening. It's hard to say whether or not it's It was better when it was overt, or is it better when it's covert? You know? And I I feel like, you know, in the sixties, our ancestors, our relatives were on the forefront of American history and it was court.
Kevin Boyce [:There was a line in the sand and we were evolving as a country. It was a painful evolution. To some people, it's so painful to that they lost their lives. Today, Racism is deeply embedded in, as you to use your term, the fabrics of society. And And I worry that while this generation may be, quote unquote, more woke to some of the racial issues, I I wonder if if because of do we fully understand The depth of the covert racism that is embedded in our society. So I I I I I love the perspective of a professor that interacts with students every day, all day. And and that is very encouraging to be quite frankly. So to answer your question about I I kinda forgot the question, but I'm answering my own question, you know.
Kevin Boyce [:So, to answer to answer the question though about, the the the mace or what I by the way, when I was maced with congresswoman Beatty and president Shannon Hartman, it the first time in my life I was amazed. It was the 1st time they had made national news that I was amazed. And and, You know, the better part of those kind of instant instances, those kind of scenarios is what comes from And in in this case, in the tragedy of the death of George Floyd, the murder of George Floyd, you said. In this case, I truly believe, that this country has turned the page to a new chapter in American history. And it's being written right before our eyes. And it's Doesn't mean it's good or bad. It just means a new chapter started. And so this conversation around where DEI fits and and that Is is somewhat, it is I would describe it as impasse empathy.
Kevin Boyce [:But there is you know, it's funny I was saying this, doc, I appreciate this.
Kenneth Wilson [:Can I call you doc? I just like
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:the word doc. Yeah.
Kevin Boyce [:We appreciate this. You know You know, some people, I feel like, in when they when we talk about D&I, they get so focused on, well, we need a black this, or we need a Black woman this I need a black male here and there. And it's that that actually is, counter to the purpose of D&I. The idea to me of D&I is that that's not an issue. That I get an opportunity to present the best case because I'm the best candidate or I have the best ideas or I have the most experience or I'm the best, you know, for the job. And so to me, what DEI is rooted in Is the bigger conversation about, you know, where racism, what we want racism to be. And that's out Of the conversation. The best place racism is for it to not exist at all.
Kevin Boyce [:It's not about, you know, this this inequality of our executive. It is so you know, that's definitely part of the the form of an equation. But to me, when we've had success, It'll be when when a white candidate and a black candidate are standing there and you are listening to them for their ideas, their experience, The content of their character and whatever other measures you you wanna include is so I feel like, well, experience for me getting pepper sprayed was one of the moment. I'm excited about, what I believe has started in America and its new chapter. How else could you have started a bank, You know, in, a black owned bank in Columbus, Ohio of all places. And I really believe that only a time and point in history where A new chapter has started and things are evolving or changing. Could you do that? You know? I couldn't I couldn't have pulled off starting a bank, 5 years ago or, you know, maybe even not now. You know, it was all the stars and the moons aligning under a awful tragedy.
Kevin Boyce [:And then, you know, maybe even some elements of COVID might have enhanced that, you know, because that also, I think, amplified a lot of the The pressure that we're all under. So, anyways so I I do feel like, the D&I movement and And, where we are is a is a a fresh chapter. We're probably on page 2 of chapter whatever you wanna call.
Kenneth Wilson [:You know, opportunity can be found, during a crisis. And we had the convergence of, an awakening re regarding, the lack of civil justice, for all people and we had a 100 year pandemic. And those, things created opportunities for a number of first to come
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:out of
Kenneth Wilson [:that. For example, Franklin County was able to participate in The kickoff of Freedom Equity, which is a CDFI, a Community Development Finance Institution, intentionally focused on, providing loans to micro businesses of color. Don't know if that would have happened otherwise. It was an environment that created afforded an opportunity, to heal the immediate symptoms of of The COVID epidemic. But also, I like to say that we're able to plant seed to create Greater resiliency, and opportunity, for for underrepresented folks. And it brought a lot it brought to a lot a lot of health disparities to, health disparities. Dr. Jeffress is something that, kinda gets lost because the racism overshadows everything. It overshadows, our housing crisis when we talk about housing affordability.
Kenneth Wilson [:It overshadows homelessness and and the and the number of unhoused right here in Franklin County. It it overshadows The decline in life expectancy. How do we take the legacies of the civil rights movement. The work that had been done Over the last 4 years when there has been an increased focus on, diversity, equity, and inclusion, how do we take that and what's next? Look. You're if you're talking to your your students in your class, what neck what's next? Where do we need to go? Get into the commissioner of voices point, that new chapter in American history.
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:Well, I mean, one of the things I think is important, and you mentioned sort of Health and health disparities and the like is to understand that what we're fighting for today is not fundamentally different than what black folk have been fighting for for generations. Even during the height of the civil rights movement
Kenneth Wilson [:and
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:moving into the black power movement, they're fighting for access to health care. You know, the Black Panther Party, has free health clinics, sick cell anemia testing, free starting an ambulance service in in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania because of The lack of access to, health care. We saw, you know, down in Alabama. They're, you know, in Rural Alabama. They're connecting with Tuskegee Institute, and trying to provide, health clinics through the war on poverty. So this question of health care and health disparities is something that black folk have been acutely aware of and have been trying to organize, to overcome or to address for generations. And despite those efforts, we still have a long way to go. And I think it was made demonstrably clear, of course, during the pandemic.
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:We should not be, in this society, the richest nation in the world, Be able to predict with almost 100% certainty a person's life Call based solely on the ZIP code in which they live. Mhmm. That's tragic. And that speaks to not Us overshadowing sort of racism or racism overshadowing these other issues, health care, personal safety, public safety, Housing and the like. But saying that, no, we gotta see how it how it connects, how it's informed. Right? And especially housing. Because where you live, The term is your access to opportunity. Right? And so dealing with the question of housing, dealing with where people live, dealing with how resources are Distributed, is critically important going forward.
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:The new chapter I think you're right. We have we are in a new chapter, but We can't be caught. I know you're not saying this, but sometimes when we think we've turned the page Mhmm. We think about one of the great American myths, and that is the myth of perpetual progress. That just because we've started a new chapter, that suddenly things are naturally gonna get better. Well, in that new chapter, there's also opposition. And I think the success of the programs that you were talking about, the success, the establishment of a black bank when we see companies and corporations, dealing with, diversity, equity, inclusion. You have those who benefit not from change, but from the status quo.
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:Yeah. And those who who are invested in maintaining the status quo, one based on purpose for some and disadvantage for others, are pushing back against that. Whether it's an economic interest that they have or a social interest divide from a particular privilege. So that new chapter, we are certainly in, But that has both the positive, the attempts to move forward, but also those who are trying to keep us where we are, if not, roll back. And if I if I could
Kevin Boyce [:just jump in too because I I I I you hit something again where that I think is worthy of of deeper conversation. In that chapter, we we have, peaks and valleys. And one of our valleys is the political process, you know. You know, I I feel like after and and then now I'm gonna be very subjective and very, anecdotal, I I I will say. And I'll show my political wares here. But, I believe truly that Barack Obama's election, also was an awakening in America. And as a result, the far opposite was elected in the next election. And and I think that too is part of this new chapter.
Kevin Boyce [:So while there's an awakening because, You know, the the tragedy of George Floyd playing out on national TV certainly, hit home. I think no matter What where you fell in, your political ideology. But the politics that has to me that is just, undergirding all of this chapter, is even harsher. I feel like we live in a political time right now. We both have relatives in in congress. We live, right now in a time where, I just I I've been elected office for almost 30 years. And I've just never seen anything like it.
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:You
Kevin Boyce [:know, I've I was saying before we got on the show, the money that I won't say the race, but they just put nearly $100,000,000 in in in the warm up round on a race. You know? So the prime warm up round on a race, you know? And I think that I there's gotta be a risk. We're gonna set all kinds of records this year. So I think the chapter, while it's being written, there are, you know, there there's some positive things coming out of the chapter. There is many negative things that we're battling with too.
Kenneth Wilson [:Commissioner Boyce, you just answered the question of where I was going. I I was going to ask you if 8 years of president Barack Hussein Obama Was the MAGA, the MAGA movement, Make America Great Again, a reaction to 8 years of hope, change in health care for Obamacare. Do you believe that, the Make America Great Again Movement was a reaction to 8 years of of living under President Obama, who by the way, by all economic indicators, was a a successful presidency. He would have scored well if it was a gray card. Don't be a president, in my opinion.
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:Could could I could I jump in real quick, please? I don't think it necessarily was a reaction to 8 years of Obama. I think it was a reaction to one day. I think it was
Kenneth Wilson [:a reaction to the other action.
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:We didn't have to continue.
Kenneth Wilson [:What they got, they they they did. Did they happen? Yeah. They
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:did. As you pointed out They
Kenneth Wilson [:did happen.
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:The most significant election Probably in the last it wasn't 2016. It wasn't even 2020. It was 2010.
Kenneth Wilson [:Right?
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:I mean, that's the that's the that's the midterm election. It's it's the census election. Yeah. Yeah. And that was the that was that was the political consolidation of The far right
Kenneth Wilson [:Mhmm.
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:Right? And and their willingness to use Obama's election, his Presence in the White House, the presence of Michelle Obama in election, in the White House as saying that we've lost something. Right? And Racism is the most powerful political ideology America has ever created. And those who are willing to pull to deploy it Have been able to do so to great effect. And we saw it beginning almost immediately. And this is part of that Tea Party revolution was Infused Mhmm. With racist rhetoric, right, and racist overtones. I mean, it was clear. And the political manifestation of that we see in 2010.
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:So so, yeah, we've been living with that, you know, ever ever since, that November day in 2008.
Kevin Boyce [:I mean, I couldn't have said it better. Mean, I I was gonna 0 in on the word. I didn't think it was a reaction necessarily as well. But, you know, what's the, Fallout's too strong of a word. But the, maybe the next steps, the next the next chapter post Obama's president. Post his election. I think it's something that, We'll be under this kind of spell, if you will, for the next decade. I I really believe that and you see it And, I mean, I I've never been a part of this party conversation.
Kevin Boyce [:I'm certainly identified with with 1 party, But both parties are guilty of of missing, some of the opportunities to progress in racism, sexism, all the all the things that, that we that we're debating today. And so, you know, the reaction I don't know if it's the right word, but I would say I would say that I feel like, you're going to see more. I don't think it's going to wane. I don't think it's going to, I I I think the moderate middle, it's a thing of the past. And I think for now, even even when you go to the barbershop and you you listen to the debates the bar at the barbershop, and it used to be, homages, you know. Now, today, it's it's, you know, for I've I've always amazed at when I go to the barbershop at What people are saying, you know. And and you you now have, you know, there are there's statistical Data that supports black men are moving toward republican ideology. And and so, you know, you you you how how can that be? How can black men be moved? But, Cornell Belcher, a Well known, Polster, was on, I can't remember the show.
Kevin Boyce [:Just oh, Black Men of Americans. It came on about Yeah. About 3 weeks ago. And and Cornell Belcher was on it. He said that, and I I kept hearing this like I've seen in the barbershop. But he he laid it out statistically. No. No.
Kevin Boyce [:This is a real thing.
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:Mhmm.
Kevin Boyce [:That black men are, responding to, being neglect feeling neglected in both political ideologies. And if and and it's really just rooted in racism. It's really rooted in racism and poverty. And in fact, men have just been to the bottom rung of all of it for so long. Now you've got those who may that still feel like they're in trenches, that are they they feel compelled to go to the far to the far, right. And and and that's scary. That's scary because, you know, I truly don't don't belong there. You know, I truly believe that's not a place where but that to me is how How, to use your term reaction, how the reaction has become, somewhat defining even for black men.
Kevin Boyce [:And I and I I to be, it's an absurd notion that, that's where there's even, you know, 10% of black men that are moving in that direction. To me, that that, It's mind boggling.
Kenneth Wilson [:Yes. Because when we think about, politics and and public policy, One would think that one's self interest would drive which direction they go. You see that struggle, you know, it's that old saying, There are no permanent friends, no permanent enemies in politics. There's only permanent interest.
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:And But it's how you define your self interest. Right? And so in yourself, how you define and understand your self interest is a reflection of how you understand the world around you. Right? And so if you feel, not as a defense. We're just trying to make sense of this too. It don't make much sense to me. They're trying to make sense of it. Right? If you're seeing so Part of the problem is talk specifically of talk talk specifically about brothers among brothers. Right?
Kevin Boyce [:Yeah.
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:The rest of it
Kevin Boyce [:is too.
Kenneth Wilson [:But but but
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:but but is the idea that, To a certain extent, we, I think, as a community, might be guilty of having oversold voting.
Kenneth Wilson [:And and that's not no.
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:I'm not saying that we don't Oh, very interesting. You know, we have to Cortland Cox, not a SNCC organizer, a veterans thing organizer. And he and he has always said and I consider myself a student, a SNCC activist. Right? He's always said voting, is is necessary, But not sufficient. Right? Necessary. In other words, we
Kenneth Wilson [:have to we have
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:to participate in the political process. We have to vote. We have to we have to make educated votes. But In and of itself, it is not sufficient to create the kind of world that we need. But I think for so so we have to. We gotta organize. We gotta organize. Right.
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:We got we are organizing, you know, our schools. We got organized our communities. But I think we've sold for so long. You just gotta vote. You You just gotta vote. You just gotta vote. And in the absence of change outside of that, you have generations who are coming and say, look. I voted.
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:My mother has voted. My grandmother has voted since 19 sixties. And yet, look at look at poverty. Look at housing. Look at opportunity. It hasn't changed. We've told them if you just vote in order to get them out to vote. And then when things don't fundamentally change, and we saw this during the war.
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:Like, Barack Obama, you got a black president. You know? It should be raining money now. They're like, man, what is happening? It's not. So I think we bear and and we broadly define, bear a measure of responsibility for setting expectations, at a level that were unrealistic for what elected officials can actually deliver in the kind of political system that we live in. And so to see people then saying, well, you know what? It hasn't been working, so why not try something else? I think it's Probably less of an indictment of them and might be more of an indictment of us, broadly defined. Yeah. If I I'd like to add one thing because I love the way
Kevin Boyce [:you put that, you know. It's it's not the only thing. But I would say I mean, if we're if we're making cookies and we left out sugar in the cookies, That cookie would not taste the same. And I feel like voting is the sugar in the cookies. I mean, it it it definitely is very much a part of The broader ecosystem. So, you know, very young people watching this, I want you to to to understand that the the thing about voting now that bothers me is You gotta be committed to the grind. It's it's almost like, you know, you you you gotta, you know in finance, we we call it, you know, you when you raise a capital, you say, you know, It's active capital or patient capital. And patient capital means that you're just gonna give your money.
Kevin Boyce [:It's gonna sit for a while. You're not gonna get any dividends for a while and it's you know, you gotta be patient. And I kinda feel like that about voting, you know, that voting is a long haul, you know, that because when I think of why voting matter, I think of the decisions that the Supreme Court Weighs in on every year that are life changing. I think of, you know, with people like myself, we make decisions every day On how to expand your tax dollars to have a difference in your life or not. And and I see good decisions and I see bad decisions, You know, at every level of government. And so I just wanna I agree with everything, doc said. But I would just add that It's an important ingredient. It's, you know, it's it's not the only ingredient.
Kevin Boyce [:You you know, you can't just put the sugar in the oven and and then and then it comes out cookies and you the cookies enjoy, but, you you won't even taste good, you know. And so you you but if you put if you mix Mix it with flour and you mix it with chocolate chips and you mix it with other things, then out out of the oven comes something That is delicious and and that you wanna have again. And I feel like that's the case with voting. That, you know, you gotta be committed to the the outcome of The the effort to create that could be the effort to to create that batter that that that that would taste good to everybody. And and, you know, Sometimes, even you put the right batteries, you barely leave, it'll come out quite. Something you did just wasn't quite right. You gotta do it again. Yeah.
Kevin Boyce [:And so, I think of voting in the same way. You know, we make, you know, we make those choices and decisions at the ballot box. And I'll be the 1st to say, I don't I don't necessarily buy into the notion that an an election or a person Is the is the golden ticket or the magic wand. You know, I I've been off for almost 30 years and no one ever handed me a magic wand.
Kenneth Wilson [:Right.
Kevin Boyce [:They always say, hey, when you get in trouble, that's the button you push and all their problems are going away, you know. And so, so just I like to think of it as this 1 ingredient Yeah. You know, to make the whole cake or cookie.
Kenneth Wilson [:I love the the insight you provided, by saying that voting is over. So, and it it it that's that's, You'll intrigue your brother. Yeah. You talk your brother.
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:I'm sorry.
Kenneth Wilson [:So everybody be like he was like, I said, what you said? You know That is intriguing. Because I I am the host to Talk of the County had to sit back and listen to you as a professor because I'm like, I know the knowledge coming. Yeah. And you laid out the knowledge and I Yeah.
Kevin Boyce [:I can do it very quickly. Absolutely.
Kenneth Wilson [:Because you you you'd need to do Something after you vote. Voting gets you influence. Right. If you are blocked of voters And you have get the influence and you are able to elect people that have your interest in mind. But don't let who's elected just assume what your interests are. Right. Right. You you can kinda I
Kevin Boyce [:will also to me, look at the statistics. They don't lie. You know, the black men the same black men in the barbershop were frustrated and Trade is saying here now MAGA voters, look at where they are statistically in life. You know, the bottom of the rung in health disparities. You know, the One of the smallest portion of the poll population, but by far the largest incarcerated, dropout rates, education rates. I mean, you just go down the list. And so, you know, the statistically black men are I feel like statistically and Systemically are not participating in the vote in the electoral process. And so as a result, I think the system kind of disregards us in the broader sense.
Kevin Boyce [:And that's why they're frustrated.
Kenneth Wilson [:Yeah. In so many ways because the farmers have an agenda. The business man have agenda. All these and Black men don't have an agenda. I you asked me what's the black man what's the black agenda for males in Franklin County right now?
Kevin Boyce [:I can make up. I think there's an agenda, but I don't think we're organized together. I I I think black men, we all in the fight in our own respective silos, and I feel like, I don't see a coordinated effort, you know, like some of these other, interest groups should be named. You know, that feel like they're they're organized and they're together. And they got associations and they they meet annually. They meet And they go to Washington, and they go to their city councils. And and I think, you know, we just haven't gotten that organized.
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:Yep. You know, thinking about sort of voting and to make sure my brother doesn't give me a call. You know, you put the emphasis in the right place. Right? That and what I'm saying is that I think we've overemphasized the event of Election Day. And what you laid out was that, no, the emphasis shouldn't be on election day. It should be on the election process. Right? Not the mechanics of it, but the process of participating, the process of holding After election day, holding elected officials accountable. I'm saying we don't have enough emphasis on that.
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:That requires political organization. That requires political education. I think if we get that, then those who are turned off by the limited outcomes that they're experiencing, have a better appreciation for okay. I was over anticipating what might happen because with FOCUS, you're telling me so much about turnout, turnout, turnout, election day, And that's about what I should be doing before as well as what I should be doing after.
Kevin Boyce [:Yeah. And I I add too. Those in addition to that, you know, it's it's Participate in the electoral process, trying to hold a good job, trying to be a homeowner, trying to get a good education. All of those things From an ingredient, create a pathway to opportunities. Not you know, there's no formula to success. It's just opportunities, you know. And I mean, people ask me all the time, you know, you know, and I and I I'm not one to feel like accomplishments mean anything because to me, I'm off and on to the next thing. And it's really about impact.
Kevin Boyce [:So, you know, however, I will say, every now and then I get a chance to reflect and think about it. And what I'm most proud of is the idea that the next generation has been given. I feel like my kids will do better than I did, you know. And and, like, I'm doing better than my parents. And And to me, that's to with the American dream and everybody buys into that. You know, everybody could you know, I I may not care about you and your family, but I I the idea that Your daughters are educated people and and do it well, in in life and in, you know, and and experience all life's great, you know, greatness. I mean, That that that's valuable to me too, you know. And they they they had those opportunities.
Kevin Boyce [:To me, it's it's all those ingredients, but they have them Because of all the the ingredients that you put into it, you know, you're active in your community, you're, a homeowner and and you went to school and you it's all the right things. That that that any of that is a formula to any one outcome or success. But it's it does set you up for opportunity. And I think that's what We're really talking about when it comes to the voting electoral processes. You know? We say, you know, opportunity favors the prepared person chance favors the prepared person. So to me, that's what voting is. It's it's a part of the preparation process for success.
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:But but what happens when the opportunities that are available for your children begin to shrink. Right? That that that that that You are not seeing a future that's brighter for them in the same ways that you saw it for yourself. That that that that your kids coming out of college and if they were fortunate enough to make it to college are saddled with 100 of 1,000 of dollars in debt, are are unable for those who don't go to college to get a factory job and break into the middle class because they can't buy a home. And I think that's part of the reality that we have to deal with that. You know, we don't have perpetual economic process, progress. We don't have perpetual Creation of opportunities that sometimes we lose ground. I think that's a natural part of the Economic system that we live in in this world. But but it's framed.
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:And this is where it becomes really dangerous. When so the way capitalism operates and, you know, we we some people don't want us talking about capitalism. That's fine. We gotta talk about it. Right? The you know, there are winners and there are losers
Kenneth Wilson [:Yeah.
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:In any economic system. And in cycles, there sometimes there are more losers. It's like, okay. But when that structural problem is then blamed on people. Right? I lost my job because of Mhmm. You know, Mexicans. I lost my job because of some Asians. Right? And then they took my Jobs and this, that, and the other.
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:No. You lost your job because multinational corporations decided to go someplace else. Right? They blew up a union. Yeah. Yeah. So But that becomes that then informs, for some, their political decision making. And you have those who are willing to play on it. Right? The whole notion of make America great again that now you've lost these opportunities, so we're gonna go back to this time where things were magically better for your parents of this, that, and the other.
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:Forget about where we were as black folk or black men. Right? Mhmm. But they're selling that. And that is unfortunate because people then look to that and say, yeah. There must be something here that I'm missing Oh,
Kevin Boyce [:you're
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:that I'm getting. And that, to me, is pretty dangerous.
Kenneth Wilson [:Yeah. Mhmm. Yeah. Dr. Jeff, do you think that's that's probably one of the factors, that Congress is, dealing with when you talk about the border crisis.
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:The border crisis. I'm gonna help. I'm gonna help. You
Kevin Boyce [:know, in the 2nd call, They
Kenneth Wilson [:thought they thought, you know, it's a it's a threat to national security. Yeah.
Kevin Boyce [:Yeah. Yeah. No.
Kenneth Wilson [:And we need, you know, we don't wanna pass anything, But we wanna talk about it every day. That is a natural natural
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:I mean, look. Look. Look. We're hyping up a lot of things. Right? You know? Yeah. Race is the most Powerful organizing tool we ever had, but you combine racism and fear. Right? Those become really powerful political tools, and you can galvanize people around that. And what we see happening right now at the at the southern border, right, is people playing to these notions of racism and fear.
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:Because we talk about the southern border. We ain't talking about Canada. Right? There's a lot of border in the United States. And the in and the in and the immigrants were coming over now. What people we're talking about people who come as families, children, mothers who are escaping political persecution and the like. Right? So, you know, this is but but we're framing them. Right? Literally, Donald Trump come down to escalate. It's talking about drug dealers and evil people coming across.
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:Right? I mean, so he's been doing that It's day 1. And so, you know, the the caravans are coming. All of that is fear. Right? I mean, you're playing to people's fears, Mhmm. And and that's the reason
Kevin Boyce [:for it. Big motivator and, you know
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:He's a very big motivator. Very powerful.
Kevin Boyce [:You know, one of the things I always feel like in politics, we always talk about during elections is No one wants to do negative ads, but they work the most. Yeah. You know, when you when you start to see the movement in an election, If you're you know, and I've been in them, you know, where you're like this and then you go negative, which is fear, you know, and you start to skip. If you elect this person,
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:this was gonna happen. This is
Kevin Boyce [:what they're gonna do to you. And and people respond to that, very aggressively, You know, and and it's it's unfortunate because I really believe as you're talking, that that's what I'm hearing at Barber Shops now. I'm amazed to have many people, support a conservative agenda on immigration reform. And it's, it's like, what are you talking about? But but that's But what you said is that it's the fear, you know, that, a lot of that pop and I and I and I keep saying that, like, I'm not an African American male, You know, because of but when I go into the barbershops now, I for my barbershop, I feel like I'm in the minority in the conversation. Because I don't, you know, I don't feel that way. But but I'm always amazed I'll be the only person in barbershop that feels that way. You know, that doesn't feel that, you know, and they're, You know, at first I thought it was just, oh, it's just fine barbershop and everybody's just, you know, that's the only barbershop I go to online, you know, and But then when I when Cornell Belcher came on the show the other day, and he started saying, I thought, oh my gosh. This is so real.
Kenneth Wilson [:Every barbershop has been on focus group in a Black community. Since that
Kevin Boyce [:time, man. The best time. The best
Kenneth Wilson [:time. Barber
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:shop and beauty shop.
Kevin Boyce [:Yeah. Yeah.
Kenneth Wilson [:Tell her. That's what she was just Oh, the barbershop poll. Who's gonna who's gonna win? Who's gonna win?
Kevin Boyce [:But you you know, I always get my information from the bar. I'd be like, who who y'all go for? I'm telling you.
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:I'd like
Kevin Boyce [:you to play out just like that. It it
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:Well, in in in in the moment that we are in, particularly at the national level, but It doesn't like, that number. Right? It's not the overwhelming. It's not even close to majority. It was black. Right? Right. It's a small percentage. But in these tight elections, a small
Kenneth Wilson [:percentage can change the outcome.
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:Totally. Right? Just a small percentage of black men who stayed home in twenty seen in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Right? You lose Wisconsin and we're in Clinton. I mean, that can move. So, you know and
Kevin Boyce [:and the the young brother that was running lost, Alright.
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:We're running for senate, Donald. For senate.
Kevin Boyce [:Yes. Who names is my mind? The Barnes?
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:What's that? Yes. Barnes.
Kevin Boyce [:Yes. Barnes. You know, he lost. You know? Again, another the potential of the pickup and what what the outcome of what that could have impact it coulda had on the US senate have been significant to to win this scene.
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:So that's a small number. Right? Like, every vote counts, but that small percentage can really move.
Kenneth Wilson [:So you really move the needle. Your students in your class here at Ohio State, have an an interest obviously in history and in black history and and the civil rights movement. In in teaching your course, what do you set as your goal to be their primary takeaway to use in a tangible way, to, benefit them in in society when they walk outside the gay citizen of first?
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:I mean, there's a couple of things. 1, as they come into the classroom, I get students from all over Ohio, all over the country, really. And, you know, I have to if conservative students, you know, because rural rural, suburban American life. Most of my students are white in Ohio State. It's not black. One of the things I tell them is, hey. Look. I'm not here to change anybody's mind.
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:That's not a requirement. You have to do well in this class. You have to change your mind, but you do have to have an open mind. If that you have to be open to the truth. If you open the facts, you have to be open to things that make you feel uncomfortable. And but, You know, I hope in the end, if they if they do meet me there, right, you don't have to agree with me, but we gotta we gotta be oh, you gotta be open. You gotta look at facts. You gotta understand stuff.
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:Then I hope they can take away one of the key lessons. Because a lot of my students are come I've taken these classes, Civil rights after Americans because they wanna change the world. Like, they really do. Right? They they may not know why it's not working, but they wanna see something different. And I can appreciate that. And if there's one thing I hope they take away is that from the civil rights era, it didn't take a lot of people to make a big difference. Right. It really didn't.
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:We think now that you know, I asked my kids, you know, how many people went to march on Washington? They're like, everybody. I'm like, everybody went at the march on Washington. Right? 250,000 people for one afternoon. I have more people by the of of many, right, in the summer of 2020. So it wasn't a lot of people. Right? SNCC, Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee. and can be never had more than 200 people. Right? It's a small number of people. So if they can take some of the lessons about organizing and change and power and and persuasion from my classes and then take that with them, Whether they're trying to change the world or just trying to change their workspace or just trying to change their family dynamic, it doesn't take a lot of people to do that.
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:Right? So that to me is a message of empowerment for them.
Kenneth Wilson [:Right.
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:Right? So given the tools, they can make a difference.
Kenneth Wilson [:Thank you. Commissioner Boyse, you know, you've been asked the question that I'm about to raised many times but to put context on your answer, you've been, an influential individual Sometime in this community, you you've, been, the state treasurer. You served on, city council at the local level. You've been a a state representative. You've been, taking you all the way back. You you've been the executive director of Ohio Play black ops. You've had a you've you've had a lot of different positions.
Kevin Boyce [:I can't hold up.
Kenneth Wilson [:But in 20 but in 2017, You became, you were elected the 1st African American county commissioner, in the history of Franklin County. And that that, LePoe opinion says 18 o three. The county has been in, in existence. And Can you put in the to context the significance of that even in light of all of your other accomplishments?
Kevin Boyce [:That's an interesting question. I mean, I I, honestly, the way you just laid it out, I never really thought about it like like that. But I know it's important, you know. But I I I feel like it'll be more appropriately measured the day I leave office, in terms of, you know, what did it mean and what what could it have meant? Because just because I'm black and just become a black man and the first time, as an office, The first time that profile, that demographic has, existed in this office, it doesn't mean change comes. Doesn't mean, you know, it could be business as usual. And so the real measuring stick will be when I leave. That being said, I'm very grateful to experience that, you know, to be, I've had the opportunity to be a first a couple of times in in my lifetime. And, it's something to be said about, breaking that ceiling so that others can now, come up as well.
Kevin Boyce [:And And and then their work is done over time. We're talking about, using the analogy of baking, you know, in in all the ingredients that go into something. And to me, it's a it's a, you know, change is, cooked in a big cake baked in a big cake. And, I've done my part. I've added my 2 eggs in and, you know, a cup of flour. Now I'm handing it off to someone else, And it's their their turn to, put the vanilla in or, you know, whatever other ingredients that that make That, makes you correct. So, you know, I'm hopeful I'm hopeful that even though, I broke the glass on the first African American, to exist in in the Franklin County Commission. I hope not to last.
Kevin Boyce [:I know we've got one currently, but that can all change. You know, selection. You know, that you know, any timing unfortunately, it's not happening this year. Thank you. But at the same time, you know, that that can that can change. You know, we can be back to business as usual 4 years from now. You know, and and so, and I think again as we're talking about with the reaction of of things after Barack Obama. When I first started in on in politics, I was on city council in Columbus in in elected office politics.
Kevin Boyce [:And the county was all Republicans, you know. And it was it was, you know, all the commissioners were Republican. And And the conversation was, don't even think about running Mhmm. For the county. Like, you'll never get you'll never get like, we'll never have that. So look, we got a city and that's we we're good there. And we had just gotten the mayor after, you know, not having the mayor for many, many years at the party. And and so, and now, you know, how many ever years later it is, you know, It's all Democrats.
Kevin Boyce [:You got 2 black people out of 3 commissioners. You get 2 of them are African American. And just in that in a short amount of time, I came in 2016. Now the majority of the county commissioners are black. Mhmm. You know? You you gotta you have the 1st woman elected.
Kenneth Wilson [:Mhmm. As your
Kevin Boyce [:county commissioner. Yeah. Here you're from. I did.
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:Yeah. We can get street
Kevin Boyce [:You know, and so and and part of that is once you break ground, then others Can come through. And and that's, you know, to me, that's the exciting part about it. You know, hopefully also what I do is meaningful. And, and when I look back, you know, there's something to really say, that was worth it in terms of me being in the office.
Kenneth Wilson [:Yeah. And the serve serving leadership is so important. It's So important not to take for granted opportunities. Like you said, you did you never wanna be the last. But you don't wanna do anything that, harm, the chances of someone following in your footsteps that that would like you. That is a that is a a part of of of being a first that doesn't get enough attention. That burden that you really care. That you don't wanna be the last individual to have that opportunity.
Kenneth Wilson [:It's one of the things that, you know, that that keeps one humble as they, yeah, as they they move forward because of that realization. This next question is for, both of you Dr. Jeffriess and, commissioner Boyse. Mentorship is Extremely important. Mentor and mentor and I I you showing our youth that, despite, your present circumstances, if you Surround yourself with a village, network of the right people. You can, in fact, be what you wanna be, And it might not necessarily be on athletic field. It might not be in entertainment. It there are opportunities, across the spectrum. You just gotta but you gotta see it to believe it.
Kenneth Wilson [:And that's what makes mentorship so important and and having individuals that you can learn from and and get that spark of inspiration to to be what they are. That's one of the things that I the reason why I try to dedicate time myself personally to talk to you because I got that. I don't think I would be where I was at if I didn't have, people in the state legislature To going back early into my career that saw something in me and invested time to decide where they wouldn't get no credit. Nobody didn't see them. But they went, you know, infusing me in a motivation to move in a direction. Not elected office but a pointed office. It wouldn't have been for the old influence. I don't think I would have been successful.
Kenneth Wilson [:I made a I might have drifted off in the law. I might have went into a different direction. So, talk a
Kevin Boyce [:little bit
Kenneth Wilson [:about, your theory on mentorship. You do it every day as a as a professor. But, for for those that aren't in the classroom, It's a little bit different, you know, of of how we can contribute, via a mentorship, man.
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:Well, I'll you know, I I think There's different types of mentorship to be sure, and there's different models to be sure. I think you hit on one that's really important, and that is the visibility, Right. Especially for young people, simply showing what is possible and modeling what is possible, right, so that they can see it. This is from little kids Through high school and into college. But then I think there's a different kind of mentorship when we move into sort of professional ranks. Right? And that is it's not just enough to see You you actually have to work to help people navigate these professional spaces. Whether we're talking about in academia, whether we're talking about in medicine, we're talking about politics because they are informal networks that as people of color, as women, that we have been excluded from
Kenneth Wilson [:Mhmm.
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:That still exists. Sometimes consciously, sometimes unconsciously. And if we don't create those 1 on 1 relationships to share what it means to your experiences as the first, then it doesn't become possible for the person to come behind you to be a success. And so the visibility of modeling what it is that we do, I think, is one form of So very early on becomes really critical. But then we have to get hands on as we move into the professional ranks to help those, who are coming up, in our footsteps, you know, that we made it possible for them to succeed just as those in front of us That made it possible for us to succeed.
Kevin Boyce [:I'm not sure I can add much more to, the idea of mentorship than that, but I've tried. You know, maybe maybe saying that wearing it from the ground lens as a young person, in in my, you know, my my father was murdered when I was 7, and my mom struggled in many different ways and like, a lot of American families, a lot of Folks right here in Central Ohio. And I know for sure that I wouldn't be where I am today, no matter how you wanna measure that, without people like coach Howard or, who was legendary basketball coach, on the north side of Columbus who, was kind enough you know, coach Howard or Anthony Thornton, a guy called AT who's a, coach today and, one of the teachers over at Midland High School. I think he's still at Midland. But those guys, just to point out those them as examples because you don't have to be, you don't have to be Kevin Boyce to be a mentor to somebody, you know. You can be coach Howard. You can be a team coach Howard, at a young age, recognized that I had, Athletic ability. And and he made a point to pick me up every day and, you know, take me to the gym to work out.
Kevin Boyce [:And back then, wasn't you know, AAU was kinda just getting started and and there was there was lots of things going on back then, The eighties seventies and eighties. And, but he picked me up every day and just said, you know, shoot, you know, 50 shots and or Practice layups or or just whatever and, and then by the time I got to high school so that that was coach Howard and coach Howard went on to be a legendary high school basketball coach In Central Ohio for those who might not know. Then he was AT. So I I get to high school, 9th grade. There's a a star athlete named Anthony Thornton. Anthony is the superstar of the city. You know, he's a basketball star, football star, track star, you know, and a senior, and I'm a freshman. And he would pick me up.
Kevin Boyce [:You know, I I get to, you know, practice the 1st day of the trials for football, and turns out I'm very fast. Turns out I'm very faster than everybody. And so I get some, you know, Highlights and coaches are talking to me and and but ATE, the big superstar that he was, he would stop and pick me up every day, you know, for practice. And, you know, I wasn't all of the drive or whatnot, but, and he just made a point to talk to me in practice, to throw me the ball. He's the senior. He said, you know, Coming to you coming to you, you know, or something. It just give me a chance to star, in that kind of environment. So my my point is to People may be watching, anybody can be a mentor.
Kevin Boyce [:Mhmm. And a mentor sometimes isn't even, vertical. You know, sometimes, you know, I can learn something from my intern, Deshaun. You know? I can learn something from, my son at times, you know, and and lessons and and and in many ways, they're mentoring you. And and so Yeah. I just said anybody, you know, the power of, engaging with somebody And you never know what it really is gonna mean to them, you know, but it could. And that's the that's the whole idea behind mentorship is that, you know, I can Help you think there's something. I can help you, you know, strengthen your view of something.
Kevin Boyce [:And so, so I hope everybody just takes a minute to To think about that as they interact with people. It it didn't even have to be some long drawn out, I'm picking you up for practice or whatever every day. It it could be Small things. It could be, you know, asking my professor about, you know, an issue that's outside of class, you know, in the news or something And and hearing what he has to say. Or the professor may be asking, I'm sure you learn from your students Absolutely. All the time. And so, so I just wanna encourage people to Look. You know, mentors come in all shapes and sizes.
Kenneth Wilson [:Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. So what position did the president and the board of commissioners play in high school?
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:This is
Kevin Boyce [:for, so far What position did you put?
Kenneth Wilson [:Football fast. Football. Football fast. Get open. Yeah. Yeah.
Kevin Boyce [:I I you know, I would keep it open. So My freshman year, I played, what they refer to as a wingback, which is like a cross like a split. It's like a cross between a halfback and a receiver. So He
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:just took it back. Yeah.
Kevin Boyce [:Basically, we had
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:Right back. We we
Kenneth Wilson [:went back.
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:We went back. We went back.
Kevin Boyce [:We went back.
Kenneth Wilson [:Were you willing to run across from him?
Kevin Boyce [:You know what? I never had to. I never had to. But listen, I'm a tell you, I'm famous. I'm famous or infamous. I'm I'm famous for running a 100 yard touchdown my freshman year. Gave me a ball on the goal line. I was too fast. The the guys could catch me.
Kevin Boyce [:Yes. Went around them and, you know, and and and, and, you know, it's history after that. You know, because I I did run track in college. It was spring in college and everything. So I had a pretty decent career. But I you know, you just you know?
Kenneth Wilson [:But that 100 yard touchdown was pure speed. It was awesome. It was all courage. It wasn't fear of getting hit. Oh, definitely. Definitely. At least I was a small guy, man. That was I think,
Kevin Boyce [:you know, one thing about the That's
Kenneth Wilson [:it all night, Gary. It wasn't It was all hurricanes I need. Hey, listen. You guys love nothing more than take my head
Kevin Boyce [:off too. It's like, dude, That I was playing with you. We we did take my head off.
Kenneth Wilson [:We've been running this conversation has been very enjoyable. I tell you, we run it Oh, but I I've I've got the the red light a few times, but I wanna wrap up. Dr. Jeffries, tell the, our podcast, this is a fun fact, Regarding yourself. It could be I force team. It could be Yeah. Beaches, mountains. And what do you what what's what's what? Well, I'm gonna ship.
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:You know, I'm I'm a girl dad. I I I have 3 daughters, ages 13, 11, and 8. And And and and then they're just the the light of my world. They they keep life fun, and I also learn a lot from them. I also learned a lot about myself because sometimes they ain't that much fun.
Kevin Boyce [:And you gotta, you
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:know, so you gotta you gotta reign it in. Right?
Kevin Boyce [:You're right.
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:But no. They they they're a lot of Find a lot of joy and just a real blessing.
Kenneth Wilson [:Girl, dad. So you probably you probably took a big hit yesterday for Valentine's Day.
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:No. Yes. Yes.
Kenneth Wilson [:I went ladies. I spread I just had
Kevin Boyce [:the love.
Kenneth Wilson [:Spread the love. I just
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:had the love. But I also had the model what love is.
Kevin Boyce [:Right? That's right.
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:You know, so that they understand like what what it what it is. Those conversations that we have. Right? Like
Kenneth Wilson [:Yeah. Then watch it be you had to be sweet though. Sweet don't cost anything. You had
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:to be sweet. Absolutely.
Kevin Boyce [:And he only said that because he's in the same exact votes.
Kenneth Wilson [:I'm only 1 short of you. So I guess the Talk of the County is wrapping up. Any parting words? I'm a give you any parting words, before we, end this episode, our 1st Black History Month episode.
Kevin Boyce [:I I would just say, you know, I I I wanna encourage everybody to do podcasts and we need more, communication at a granular level. You know, the idea that we can come together and just talk about issues, talk about each other, talk about things, and and learn from them. You know, I'm tired of watching CNBC. I'm tired of watching, you know, you know, it's the same thing over and over and the same people over and over. I love when I hear from everyday people. So maybe maybe I, you know, I watch the next show, and then and then maybe somebody out there will send me a note to watch their show.
Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries [:Yep. That sounds good. I second that. Alright. Gotta hear from the
Kenneth Wilson [:people. Alright. We're wrapping it up. We're wrapping it up with my last parting words. Do you. No one else has time to. That's it. Thank you.
