Welcome to Yappy Hour, powered by Yappily - the podcast for dog lovers who want to build better relationships with their dogs!

In this episode, host Nathan Dunleavy is joined by Border Collie specialist and founder of That’ll Do Academy, Martina Miradoli. If you're living with (or considering owning) a Border Collie, this episode is packed with essential advice for understanding this intelligent, driven, and sometimes challenging breed.

We discuss:

• What makes Border Collies unique
• Their work ethic, herding drive & natural instincts
• How to meet their needs without over-exercising
• How to manage behaviours like car chasing or stalking
• The importance of mental enrichment & switching off
• Training techniques that build connection & cooperation
• Common mistakes pet parents make with Border Collies
• Herding: When it’s appropriate and what to consider

Find out more about Martina Miradoli and her work at That'll Do Academy website.

If you're an ethical and qualified dog pro or pet business we'd love you to list on Yappily

Don’t forget to subscribe to Yappy Hour and leave us a review if you found this episode helpful!

Welcome to the Yappy Hour, powered by

Yappily, the podcast for dog lovers

2

who want to build better relationships

with their furry companions.

3

I'm your host Nathan Dunleavy, and in

today's episode I'm joined by the amazing

4

Martina Miradoli from That'll Do Academy.

5

Martina is an expert in all things

Border Collie and today we're diving deep

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into what makes this breed so unique.

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We'll explore their intelligence,

energy and herding instincts and how pet

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parents can best support their needs.

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If you're thinking about getting a

Border Collie or already have one in

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your life, This episode is packed with

invaluable advice to help you better

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understand and connect with your dog.

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So grab a cup of tea, settle

in, and let's get started.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Welcome back to the Yappy

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Martina: Okay.

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Okay.

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Okay.

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Okay.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Martina specializes in the collie breed.

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So I'm so excited to have her today.

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She's a

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Martina: Okay.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

trainer that focuses on border collies

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through the That'll Do academy.

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Martina has experience

in helping dog owners.

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better understand and support this

intelligent and energetic breed.

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So I'm so excited to dig deeper and

I'm so excited to have Martina here.

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Martina, welcome to the The Yappy Hour.

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It's so great to have

you here with me today.

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How are you doing?

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So

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Martina: and thank you for having me.

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It's good to actually be interviewed,

because I normally interview

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other people, so I quite enjoy

it today, being the one answering

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questions and not asking, but I'm

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: in

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Martina: really good, yeah.

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Yeah.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

I'm so glad you're here.

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So brilliant.

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So, martina for those who might who

may not know you yet Can you just

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share a little bit about that ado

academy and what what inspired you

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to specialize in broader colleagues?

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Martina: Yes.

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So if probably some of you will

know that That'll Do is the end

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of the work for Border Collie.

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When you want to call them off

sheep, we don't use their names.

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We actually say That'll Do and that

means forget about sheep and come away.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Oh, I had no idea.

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That's

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Martina: Okay.

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Yeah.

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So that's why, that's why I

decided to call it like that.

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Cause of course, you know, I deal with

dogs that can't switch off and can't

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actually make the decision to stop.

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And I specialized in 2021.

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I was a bit late cause a lot of

people were telling me to do it during

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lockdown and I was like, nah, not ready.

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You know, and, and then, and then I had.

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Because of course, you know, 2021 was

still that kind of odd year where people

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were like working from home and everything

and I had people sending me that in that

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year a lot of colleagues, they didn't

want to work because I think we became

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a bit more kind of, we could say a bit

more no, we learned to be a bit more, you

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know, specific in what we wanted to do.

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Colleagues will say, can you,

can you see this colleague?

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Can you take care?

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I, I, don't have the time and everything.

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So I started realizing that my

colleagues were sending me colleagues.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Okay,

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Martina: So I,

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

a mouthful,

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Martina: yes, I know.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: your

colleagues have said to your colleagues

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Martina: so I decided why

not, why not specializing?

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And at that point I've had Border

Collies since, you know, my first

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Border Collie arrived in 2005.

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So it's going to be.

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20, 20 years now from owning

my first border Collie.

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So I decided maybe, maybe I know

something about the breed . Yeah, and

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I've been doing everything with them.

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You know, I've done competitive

obedience, competitive agility,

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herding since my very first dog.

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I've trained them with sheep as well.

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I've done scent work.

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I've done a bit of everything.

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And of course they were my pets

and they were my companion.

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They traveled from Italy with me.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: because

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Martina: My first two.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Italy.

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Martina: Yeah.

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So I moved in 2014 and

they traveled with me.

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We had a car full of stuff.

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We just traveled.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow,

so what made you come from Italy then?

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Because I imagine it's a

beautiful part of the world.

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And what part of Italy are you from?

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Martina: So I'm from Milan.

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So I'm from a big city.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

even exotic.

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Martina: I know.

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I'm from a big city and now I'm sitting

in my own farm in the middle of nowhere.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Yes, that's

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I'd rather that.

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Martina: Yeah, exactly.

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So yeah, I just well, my, my dad, so the

first time I actually acknowledged Borg

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Collies was when I was very little and

we went on holidays to Ireland and the

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UK because my dad was very passionate

about everything that was British and

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Irish, everything about these two islands.

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And, and the, you know, when they give

you coloured books to colour when you're

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a kid in restaurants and my mum has

still got a couple of them and there's

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one where, where there's a kid like.

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having a dream.

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And I've put sheep and I've put

a black and white dog in that.

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But I was like, I don't know, eight.

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I didn't even know what I was doing.

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And then my mom is like, look at this.

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You were already drawing

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah,

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Martina: because I, I, yeah, because

I was seeing them in the, you

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know so yeah, so it started there.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: that.

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Martina: I manifested it, yes.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh wow.

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Oh, that's so exciting.

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So Martina, what is it about Border

Collies that fascinates you the most?

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Martina: So again, the first time I

actually learned what Border Collies

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were, is when I was coming to this

country as, as a kid with my parents

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and I remember seeing them moving sheep.

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And I didn't even like dogs at the time

because I was a horse person, a horse,

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horse kid at the time, horse and cats.

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I didn't have dogs at the time.

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But that's, I think that's the thing

that always fascinated me is, is their

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ability to drive to the job they have.

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And even when I got my first Border

Collie, and I still didn't know that it

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was possible to actually, in Italy, train

them with sheep, I, you know, I wanted

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a Border Collie because they were those

dogs that were moving sheep in the UK.

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So I think that's always the thing that

fascinated me, and I was in horses before

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I was in dogs, and I love training.

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And I used to, you know, ride

at quite high level in horses

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as well, I was doing dressage.

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So I've always liked Yeah, I've always

liked to, to, to have a relationship

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with animals with a higher kind of

intelligence where you can do, where

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you can train higher skills together.

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So when I looked into what breeds, then

they were the one that were described

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as you can do everything with them.

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You can do agility, you can do

this dog, you can do freestyle,

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you can do, you can do everything.

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You know, they herd sheep all day and

they go and gather sheep on the hill.

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So.

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that, that was similar to the

horses I was working with.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Yeah, oh wow.

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Aren't they the most, aren't they

the most intelligent breed, Collies?

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of all

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Martina: I'm not sure.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

what they say?

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I think

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Martina: They,

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

are second and

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Martina: yeah, I

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

but I don't know how true that is.

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Martina: think there are

different types of intelligence.

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I think that's the study.

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I can't remember.

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I read it many, many years ago.

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And I think they are the most intelligent

and in a way that they, they can be

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trained at high level and they can

be trained at high details and, and,

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and skills, as we all know, you know,

freestyle and, you know, all the dancing

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dogs that know millions behaviours.

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So yeah, I think they can

be trained at a high level.

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Now put one of them in the woods,

they'll probably wouldn't survive.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Oh, okay.

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Martina: They're not, you know,

they're not good hunters at all.

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So they have, they have their

own qualities, but yeah.

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So

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh, wow.

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That's really interesting.

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Thank you.

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So moving on to our next section is

understanding the border collie mindset.

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Border collies are known

for their intelligence.

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We've just mentioned that

and their work ethic.

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But what does that really mean

for a day to day life with them?

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Martina: they are driven to work.

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They are driven, driven to do something.

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They want to constantly

be doing something.

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So they are dogs that as soon as

you get up, They're up and they're

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like, okay, what are we doing now?

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I can't, in the morning, I wake up

in the morning, I have my breakfast,

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they, they, they have the breakfast, I

have my breakfast, and then the moment

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they read my body language so well,

and that's, that's, that's a thing

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that is very sometimes difficult for

people, they read my body language, as

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soon as they understand that that's my

last sip of coffee, they're up at the

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door, and like, my young one is pushing

at the door like that, like, come on,

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come on, come on, let's go out, let's

go out, because they love the routine.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Right.

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Martina: So we go in the paddock and then

they play and you know, I walk around

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with them and I make them run so they

have that half an hour of burning energies

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in the morning before I start my work

or I start doing things around the farm.

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So I think, I think that drive

is what is, yeah, is what really

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people don't realise they have.

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You know, they think, oh yeah,

it's going to be a puppy, it's

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going to be this and that.

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My six months old puppy just now

finished teething, finished that

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kind of little bit sensitive

phase, and I can see the drive now.

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You know, I can see it.

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I can't wait to train her on

sheep because she needs it.

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And, and

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

something to do.

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Yeah.

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Martina: her, I'm doing a lot of tricks

training and shaping and other things

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but she needs to start and at six

months old you can start seeing the

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amount of work she will need because

she's really on all the time and she

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wants to do, you know, she's constantly

asking you let's do this, let's do that.

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So the drive I think is, is, is what,

is the drive to do and the drive

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to be useful as well is, is what.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah.

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How many colleagues do you have, Martina?

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Martina: I have five.

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Five?

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Yes, five.

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Yeah, so we have eight dogs.

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Yeah, we have eight dogs in total.

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Yeah.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

seven, so you've

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Martina: Oh, well,

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: me.

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Martina: yes Yeah, so they

go from six months old to 14

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Lovely,

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Martina: yeah,

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

So I was just, it's going to come to

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one of our questions, but I was just

thinking that for, like, a pet parent

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or a guardian to bring a border collie

puppy into their lives, their home, they

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really need to understand the breed and

do their research, you know, because

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Martina: yes,

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

think, oh, it's a puppy.

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And then like you say, they need

to be given something to do.

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So what are the most what are some

of the most common misconceptions

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people have about border collies?

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Martina: so I think that The,

the, the, the one that, that

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we're talking about before, the

fact that they're so intelligent,

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people think they're easy to train.

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And because you see them on TV and

they have, they have these amazing

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skills and it looks like it's easy.

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So I think everyone thinks, oh yeah,

I'll get a botacoli because they're easy.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Right,

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Martina: And for some reason,

people think that they're good for

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children because they are playful.

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But it's not always the case.

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Sometimes, you know, it is

actually more challenging if

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you've got kids in the home.

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And I think, I think the border

collie breed has changed a lot in

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the last 10 years, 10, 20 years.

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And I think a lot of people

had them when they were kids.

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If they are our age, they might have

had them when they were kids and their

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parents or their grandparents had a

Border Collie and the type of Border

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Collie that was more available 20

years ago was a different type of dog.

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than the one we have now,

which is changing, you know.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: have

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Martina: So I think that some people

remember the old Boricolli that was happy

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to just sit and wait to go for a walk, and

but nowadays are bred to be more driven

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and quicker to work, so they're bred to

have a quicker switch on to work because

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there is a lot of trade around Boricollis.

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You know, people do it for a living.

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They buy them as puppies, they

start them, they sell them, you

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know, at ten or twelve years old.

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months old, fully trained on sheep.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.

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Martina: that means that they have

more drive and they have more prey.

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You know, chase instinct because they

have to be starting a bit quicker and

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be ready quicker than, than, you know,

in, in the old days they say, Oh, you

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know, bought a collie wouldn't work

until he was, you know, a year and a

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half or two, you know, they will take

their time to train them while nowadays

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they're fully trained at 10 months old.

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So you have to breed

something that can take that.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Wow, that's, that's amazing.

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so for those pet parents that

are considering a border collie,

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what should they know before

bringing one into their home?

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Martina: So first thing is I would.

278

Suggest to look at the breed as a

whole because of course the more

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available one are the working

border collies everyone is a farm.

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around where they live and they

think that the easiest thing is

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to go and buy a puppy from a farm.

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But the random farm that breeds to

work doesn't have the selection for

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a dog that is suitable to pet living.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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Martina: suggestion is to actually go out

and look at the options you have is not

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always the best option to go to a farm.

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It's a bit more, you know, it's prettier

with more coat, but they are bred to

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actually be more calm and has less drive

because they're bred to appear nice.

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Yeah, and probably some people are

breeding more for pets types or,

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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Martina: straight away.

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So do your research.

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What kind of collie are you taking home?

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Are you going to,

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah.

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Martina: mountains to work on.

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They live in the middle of nowhere and

it might have been generation of dogs

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that live in the middle of nowhere.

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What they're selecting is a

dog that, yeah, it's a bit

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noise sensitive, who cares?

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We are in the middle of nowhere.

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They need a lot of exercise.

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They've got mountains to work on.

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But if you're taking that into

Manchester, that can be a problem.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

yeah, into a big city.

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Yeah, yeah, I can imagine.

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So I was walking at Border Collie

at one point, and I think this is

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a common thing that you probably

know what I'm about to say is that

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it chases, it used to chase cars.

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Coming up, we'd walk out of her house

and it was like, like a bit of a, a hill.

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And in the end I had to park

quite outside her house because

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at that point I wasn't training.

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I was, I was doing dog walking.

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So I didn't understand, but

she used to chase the cars.

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So I guess that's her, that's her innate

sort of, that's her makeup, isn't it?

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To sort of do something like that.

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Martina: Yeah, so border collies

chase cars for two main reasons.

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One is, of course, you know,

they see something that moves

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and they want to control it.

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But then there is another reason that

I see very often, which is actually is

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driven by fear of the noise of the car.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Oh, okay.

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That's

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Martina: Yeah, because border

collies have that need to control

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and when they are afraid of

something, they tend to control it.

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A lot of border collie will shark

around other dogs or things that they're

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not sure about and that's the way to

actually control what they're scared of.

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So I see sometimes border collies

actually start chasing cars

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because they hear this noise.

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they hear this, they see this big

thing moving, they don't know what

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it is, and then they want to stop

it, they want to control it, because

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that makes them feel better about it.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: I see.

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Okay.

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Yeah,

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Martina: these are the two main

reasons that, that they will stop.

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But there's definitely some that will

chase, or will want to chase cars, because

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they just, they're on a lead, they get

frustrated, something is going past very

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fast, and they just want to stop it.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yep.

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And they have better hearing

than us as dogs, so they can hear

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these loud noises, like you say.

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And there's a lot of them

going up and down the road.

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So to the

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Martina: Yeah,

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

dog, it's like, oh, my

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God, like what's going on?

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yeah.

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Martina: I have my, at the moment I've

got my iPhone earphones on, which are

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completely, you know, soundproofed.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah,

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Martina: And I don't know how, but

if I'm listening, if I'm watching

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a video of sheepdog training

quite loud because I'm, and, and

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Tay's in the room, he can hear it.

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You can hear the whistle in the video.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: right.

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Martina: know how so if, even if I try

to watch it without earphones and I put

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it at the minimum level, he still hears

the whistling and he will start, you

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know, standing up and looking around and

looking at me and then looking out the

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window and expecting sheep to be there.

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So that's the level of hearing they have.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Amazing.

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Absolutely

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Martina: so yeah.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: And

for our listeners, because again, it's

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another question I don't really know

the answer to, and I probably should,

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but for our listeners, like when their

border collie stalks goes down low, you

368

just explain what's happening there?

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Martina: Collies are the only three

breeds that work with the eye.

372

All the other herding breeds will work

with the bark or with body pressure

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or just with their movement, but the

collies work with their eye, which

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means that they use the prey sequence,

which starts with, you know, eyeing

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the prey and stalking the prey.

376

They behave, I've, I've, I've, it's so

much fun when I watch some documentary

377

of wolves because you can see the wolf

moving, ready to pounce on a prey and

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it looks like One of my colleagues

that have no coat and got pricked ears.

379

They move the same way, you

know, they look like predators.

380

And that stance, of

course, startles the sheep.

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And that starts moving and they start

reacting to what we call the pressure.

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They put pressure on the

livestock with that stance.

383

And that stance that I is used to control.

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They control sheep that way, so they

will move left and right, and with

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the movement and the eyes constantly

on the prey, the sheep will actually

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move to get away from that pressure,

and that's how they control flocks.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Right.

388

Yeah, that's so interesting.

389

So interesting.

390

So moving on to our next section is

the needs of a high energy breed.

391

So we know that Border Collies thrive

on both physical and mental stimulation.

392

What are some of your favourite

ways to meet those needs?

393

Martina: Okay, so first thing with

Border Collies is that we need to try

394

not to give them too much of a routine.

395

And of course in a fa on a farm,

it's easier because, you know, I have

396

my fields and I have this and that.

397

But when you, when you live in

a, in a home and you know, you

398

don't have, you don't have the

same kind of rhythm all the time.

399

If you create a big routine that

they will want it all the time.

400

So I always try, when I used to

live in a house, well, even now,

401

like today, they had no walk.

402

I always try to.

403

mix and match what they do.

404

I don't do the same thing every day.

405

I don't expect, I don't ask them to do it.

406

I don't expect them to want

like three hour walk every day.

407

There's some days where we do a big

walk and there's some days where we

408

do a lot of training and there's a day

where we go for a walk on a lead and

409

there's a day where we do, you know,

we go to class and there's a day where.

410

We go shopping.

411

I don't know that every time there is,

there needs to be something different.

412

Give them different things to do.

413

Don't just do one thing.

414

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

415

Yeah.

416

Martina: So if you're planning to have

a border collie to just have a walk

417

around the block is not going to work,

they're going to end up into troubles.

418

So they need high, high exercise,

like high intensity exercise,

419

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

420

Martina: and that can be going running

with them, that can be taking them

421

swimming, that can be play of course with

them, although I'm not a big fan of ball

422

throwing and ball chucking a lot, but if

that's twice a week where they burn energy

423

in 10 15 minutes and they, they sometimes

need it they need a lot of training.

424

Their brain needs to be stimulated a lot.

425

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

ball throwing has been being

426

repetitive, not good on their joints.

427

Is that and that's a

428

Martina: It's not good on their joints and

it's not good on their adrenaline level.

429

They, they, they just want more.

430

I'm working at the moment with two

different ones from different places,

431

different ages, but similar problem

because that's the main exercise they

432

get, ball throwing, ball throwing,

ball throwing, they can't switch off.

433

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

It's a bit obsessive

434

Martina: Yes, he's obsessive.

435

And then this, yeah,

436

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: and I

think has pet owners, pet parents like,

437

like we probably don't know no different.

438

We think that's okay because we see it

and we think that's okay to throw a ball.

439

But really it's probably have more

of an adverse effect on the dog.

440

Martina: yeah.

441

And don't get me wrong.

442

You know, you can do it, but the way

you do it and when you start doing

443

it, I would never do it with a puppy.

444

I would wait until they're fully

grown and they're a bit older.

445

So my puppy saw, played with a, with

a ball, like me chucking the ball,

446

her play, chasing and bringing it

back for the first time last week

447

or this week or this day, last week.

448

She's six months old.

449

She has a good retrieve.

450

She wants to share the toy with me.

451

She knows that, you know, she gets,

you know, the toys about me and her.

452

So at this point, throwing the ball

a couple of times, she'll bring it

453

back, sit in my lap and give it to me.

454

It's not an obsessive thing.

455

She's not waiting for me to throw it.

456

because we've built a routine already

where she sits and waits or I hold the

457

collar, I throw the toy out, I wait for

the toy to stop, then she goes and chases

458

it, then she brings it back to my hand,

and then we do a bit of training, and

459

then I throw the toy again, and then I ask

her some behaviour, so the ball becomes

460

part of a game between me and her rather

than me just being a a ball chucker.

461

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: I

think that then also helps improve your

462

bond and your relationship, that play.

463

Martina: yeah, exactly.

464

So yeah, so you know, it's important

though that they have some high intensity

465

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

466

Martina: because they need it.

467

You know, if they can't go work in sheep

where they really use all their energies

468

and all their power, both mental and

physical, then they need to have it.

469

So yes, agility is good.

470

Fly ball could be good.

471

Other sports, centaur sport.

472

is good, but, you know, play needs

to be, play is probably the best way

473

to give them that kind of outlet.

474

But it needs to be done the proper way.

475

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

That's great.

476

Thank you.

477

Martina, how can pet parents provide

appropriate outlets without over

478

exercising or over stimulating their dog?

479

Martina: I think giving, again, giving

them like, in, for example, in the house,

480

I have toys available for them, but I

don't do a lot of toy play in the house.

481

So in the house is more relaxing time.

482

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yes.

483

I'm

484

Martina: that's a big rule.

485

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

486

Martina: and I, and they have toys.

487

because I have multiple dogs, of

course, so they have to be available.

488

They sometimes play with each other,

especially the young dogs, but

489

they know that I'm not part of it.

490

So that if then the other dogs don't want

to play, the young ones learn to settle.

491

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

492

Martina: so the houses settle time.

493

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

I'm big on that.

494

The house is all calm and

activity, settle time, but

495

Martina: Yeah.

496

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

you can maybe have the more sort of

497

Martina: Yeah.

498

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah.

499

Martina: Yeah.

500

And then maybe one of the heart

of the room, like the kitchen, for

501

example, could be the training place.

502

Cause of course you have to

be doing training indoor.

503

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yes.

504

Martina: it's more like it's the kitchen.

505

So.

506

Then the living room where you sit down

on your sofa and you want to relax.

507

There's no play involved

in the living room.

508

They need to learn.

509

Some of them need to learn to switch off.

510

Not all of them.

511

Some of them are really

good, but some have to learn.

512

So to me, using a pen and using a

crate to teach them that there is

513

switch off time, it's important.

514

I'll tell you, for example.

515

I talk about my dogs a lot

in my podcast and everything.

516

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: That's

517

Martina: one of my, yeah, one of my,

so I have now, since I moved to the

518

farm, I have got two new Border Collies.

519

So Kite arrived in February, so he's a

year old, and Tali is six months old.

520

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh,

521

Martina: Now, they are completely

opposite, they could be two different

522

breeds, in temperament and everything.

523

Clyde took nearly a year to

learn to settle in the house.

524

And he's not a house

dog, he sleeps in kennel.

525

I mean, he comes in the house, but

then when I'm, when I'm here working

526

or, you know, I'm doing something

that I can't keep an eye on the

527

dogs, he goes back to his kennel.

528

And he's the happiest dog in the world out

there, because he's able to switch off.

529

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

530

Martina: In a house where I've got cats,

I've got the other dogs, I go in and

531

out, it's too much stimulation for him.

532

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yes.

533

Martina: So, some dogs, not all of

them, Tali's completely the opposite,

534

she's six months old, she's still in

the house and she settles very nicely

535

in the house, she doesn't have a crate

anymore, apart from during the night but

536

some dogs really need that kind of space

where they completely can switch off.

537

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

538

Martina: So it's important

to plan that in advance

539

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

540

Martina: and create a space where you

don't keep going in and out, where you

541

don't have cats and kids running in, where

you don't have other dogs bothering them.

542

That place where they can go and

just switch off because they need

543

that as a breed, they need to, more

than others, because otherwise their

544

brain is developed, has been selected

to constantly be active and work.

545

And if their surrounding is constantly

movement, there's always movement kids

546

and cats and other dogs and people

going in and out, then they, some

547

of them will not be able to settle.

548

So, giving them that settling time and

that settling space is very important.

549

Because I think that sometimes, and I

get that often in my students, you know,

550

like, how much does your puppy sleep?

551

Oh, she doesn't sleep,

she's up and about all day.

552

That's why we have problems.

553

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Puppies need about 18 hours,

554

18, 20 hours sleep, don't they?

555

Martina: Yes, yes, exactly.

556

So, yeah.

557

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

They can't be always on the go.

558

Perfect.

559

So are there any creative

enrichment activities that work

560

particularly well for Border Collies?

561

Martina: I have to say, my

favourite thing is just teaching

562

as many behaviours as you want.

563

Now, I, I am not, I, I'm going to

talk about this a little bit because

564

there is, there is a game that you

can teach them, where you can teach

565

them to stalk a bull, and that

looks like they're stalking a sheep.

566

Now, I've tried it with my

own dogs, they don't care.

567

And I have, they don't

care, they just don't care.

568

I like to teach my dogs to, as I said

already, share a toy with me and, and

569

bring it back to me and we do a bit

of tug and I might throw it out or we

570

might just, you might just chase it.

571

So I'm not a big fan of alternative

herding and stalking games.

572

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: I

573

Martina: And, yeah, and you might

find undercollege specialists

574

that do that as their main thing.

575

Everyone is different.

576

I've had border collie for 20 years.

577

My dogs have seen sheep, but not

enough to say they've always worked.

578

They are used to living in a big city.

579

And

580

My colleague that is now 14 years old

is one of the strongest dog I've ever

581

had in prey drive and need to work.

582

You know, he needed a farm.

583

I didn't have it.

584

Too difficult for me to handle on

the sheep, it was got too much drive.

585

So from three years old, up to now

that he's 14, he's not practiced his

586

stalking abilities, and he's still

been a very happy dog, because I

587

provide the training, play, scent

work activity and enrichment activity.

588

So your Border Collie doesn't

need activities to stalk and herd.

589

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

590

Martina: to listen to requests

and, and love to do things for you.

591

So, there is not one thing, and I don't

think that every border collie has

592

to hurt, and has to stalk things to

be happy, but they need to definitely

593

Feel like they're doing a job.

594

So for my, for, for

Moss, agility was a job.

595

You know, you can see in his

face, it wasn't just enjoyment.

596

It was a job.

597

It was sit in the front of the first

jump and he would attack that course.

598

Like, you know, like he was working

on the mountains to collect the sheep.

599

It was, it was a job for him.

600

So they need, they need, they need

to, they need to have that brain

601

stimulated and you can't just teach

them, sit down and stand and stay,

602

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Nah,

603

Martina: they have to learn constantly,

604

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

605

Martina: behaviours.

606

behaviors.

607

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Sounds

like about just having those appropriate

608

additional outlets to keep them engaged.

609

Martina: Yeah, yeah.

610

So so yeah it's not a specific thing,

but scent work is a great thing because

611

scent work, for example, is teaching

them, is giving them something to work.

612

They definitely work when they sniff a lot

and they go in high intensity sniffing.

613

They do use a lot of energies.

614

then the end result of

finding something is play.

615

If you teach it that way, and I do

personally, I teach them that after

616

they found something for me, then

we play for a good few minutes.

617

And because they're using their

nose, for example, instead of their

618

eyes, then they're not learning,

you know, they're using a sense that

619

phlebotocollis is not as natural and

is helping counteracting the eye.

620

which can get him into trouble.

621

So I use scent work a lot for

dogs that go around stalking

622

and looking for things to stalk.

623

Actually teaching them to do some scent

work in those situations is very useful.

624

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Yeah, love scent work.

625

Perfect.

626

Thank you so much.

627

So moving on to our next section,

and that's the challenges

628

of owning a border collie.

629

Sorry, my dog's led on

my, my questions there.

630

So border collies come, sometimes struggle

with over overstimulation or frustration.

631

How can owners start to recognize the

early signs and respond appropriately?

632

Okay.

633

Okay.

634

Martina: to, to know how a dog

is not able to, you know, The

635

dog that cannot pay attention.

636

You know, when you start taking your

puppy out, and you are trying to get your

637

puppy attention, and they are looking

around, stalking something, not taking

638

your treats, pulling on a lead, going

all crazy every time there is something

639

appearing in the environment, this is

the first time that your puppy shouldn't

640

be put in that situation until you have

better focus skills and you have better

641

You know, training tools to be able to

have a puppy that is paying attention.

642

And that's where problems start arising.

643

We have a puppy.

644

We take them out on the walk

because we have to socialize them.

645

But that puppy that is bred to start

noticing the environment and the

646

movement in the environment that

doesn't have any skills to be able to

647

pay attention to the owner is going

to start looking at things that move.

648

And that's how, for

example, car chasing starts.

649

Because they are on the road,

suddenly something goes past

650

very fast and they look at it.

651

And they are like, Ooh, and

then they are on the lead.

652

So they can't actually

perform the behaviour.

653

And then they start pulling and

then they start getting frustrated.

654

Do you and the majority

of owners don't see that?

655

I see, you know, when you drive as

a dog trainer, you drive your car

656

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Yes, I know what

657

Martina: and

658

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: say.

659

Martina: Yeah, and then you look, oh,

there's a Border Collie, and I see this

660

little puppy on a harness that is not

suitable for that puppy on a flex lead

661

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh God.

662

Martina: an old person that is

already staring at my car going past.

663

And the owners are not even aware because

they're chatting with each other and

664

this puppy is already stalking cars.

665

That puppy is four or five

months old when he reaches a

666

year old and he weights 20 kilos.

667

And he's still on the flex lead.

668

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

person over.

669

Martina: Yes, this is where

it starts, but nobody.

670

realizes until it's a big problem.

671

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: I

thought you were going to say that.

672

I mean, you probably look out for

Border Collies, but I find that I

673

just look at other people's dogs.

674

I see people out walking

their dogs and I'm.

675

I'm fascinated.

676

I just look at the dog and I'm like, oh,

677

Martina: Yes, I'm a bit of a Border

Collie myself, so I'm a bit obsessed.

678

So I normally, if it's

a dog, I just let it go.

679

But if it's a Border Collie, I

stop and look at the behaviour

680

and I'm like, yeah, look at that.

681

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: I mean,

that's a good idea to do that, isn't it?

682

Because you specialize in that breed.

683

So, I mean, I've got toy

poodles and chihuahuas.

684

So obviously, like, you know, I

see tons of like poodle crosses and

685

Martina: Yeah.

686

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah, I

just find myself looking at people's dogs.

687

They must think I'm crazy.

688

So how do you behave in pet homes?

689

Can be very challenging.

690

What's your advice for

managing them safely?

691

Martina: So the first thing is, as soon

as you have just a bit of suspicion

692

that your puppy is performing herding

behaviours towards your cat, your kids,

693

your neighbor's kids, a car, a bike, a

runner, and that means that they might

694

look at the something that is coming

close and then they pounce forward or they

695

stalk, their head goes down and they look

like they are kind of hypnotized by that.

696

That's the first sign that you

should contact a dog trainer.

697

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Right.

698

Martina: that understands that

because I get, again, Everyone

699

has their specialities, we

can't be good at everything.

700

If someone comes to me with separation

anxiety, I send them to someone else.

701

Because it's not my specialty.

702

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Oh, that's one of my specialities.

703

Martina: Yeah so I'll add you

to my list of people that I

704

know might send names out.

705

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

706

Martina: and manage it from the beginning,

which means not exposing your puppy

707

to situations that can provoke their

behaviour again, until you've done some

708

training to prevent their behaviour.

709

It's going to just escalate.

710

It's not going to get better.

711

So don't hope that Border Collies grow,

you know, and I hear it all the time.

712

Oh, they'll grow out of it.

713

Just sit on a chair on the, on a, on

a bench next to a busy road and just

714

leave them there for two hours with you.

715

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh,

716

Martina: No.

717

No, the way Border Collies trigger,

I'll tell you how I triggered my

718

six month old puppy to work sheep.

719

She wasn't interested in sheep, so I

took her with me every time I trained my

720

other dogs and I allowed her to watch.

721

Guess what?

722

One day she went like, Oh, I like that.

723

So I went in with her and she

suddenly started chasing sheep.

724

that's how they develop the chase and the

wanting to work is allowing them to watch.

725

So now every time there is sheep I

stop and I allow her to watch and

726

I see her head going down, her bum

going up, and she starts having

727

that shape of a border collie.

728

So allowing them to look at movement

happening is the best way to develop

729

that behaviour, not to get them past it.

730

And I think there's this

misconception yet, still.

731

You know, a lot of dog trainers, as well

as owners that trust those dog trainers.

732

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

sounds a bit like you can do that

733

engage disengage game, can't you?

734

Martina: Yes.

735

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Letting them sort of engage and then the

736

Martina: Yeah.

737

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah,

738

Martina: Yeah.

739

So I'm, I'm a Control

Unleashed instructor as well.

740

So I'm, I've done my, my certification

741

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yes

742

yes,

743

Martina: So yeah, I use the look at

that game and all the pattern game to

744

help dogs filter in the environment

through focused based games.

745

So that they learn that, okay, yeah,

there is, there is traffic far away, but

746

we are here and we are learning to engage

with me while disengaging from traffic.

747

And the sooner you start that process.

748

The suit, you know, the better

it is for, for little puppies or

749

dogs that start noticing movement.

750

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

751

Martina: yeah,

752

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Okay.

753

Brilliant.

754

Thank you.

755

So how can, how do you help Border

Collie pet parents teach their

756

dogs to switch off and relax?

757

Martina: so the first thing that I

always say to everyone that asks me that

758

question is, you can, your dog cannot

be relaxed and switch off unless they've

759

had appropriate exercise and training.

760

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm

761

Martina: no relaxation without

appropriate exercise and training.

762

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: mm.

763

Martina: so just doing calming games.

764

or giving them a chew or giving

them a kong is not going to make

765

them relax if they have excess

energy, both brain and body.

766

So make sure that you meet their needs and

they get enough exercise in an appropriate

767

and safe way and enough training.

768

Now after that is teaching them a routine.

769

So for young dogs, I take them out for

a walk, I take them out for training,

770

they go to the toilet, they go back to

their crate or their pen, they get a

771

chew, they get a kong, and they learn to

switch off after they've done exercise.

772

So that they learn that after they

had like adrenaline time, because

773

they've been out playing and training

and doing that, then I allow them

774

an activity that calms them down.

775

and helps them calm down, because

otherwise, the problem of a lot

776

of Border Collie is that they're

not able to calm down on their

777

own and they need that input.

778

So allowing them to chew on something

that will last them a bit, or to give

779

them a frozen Kong with food in it that

will last them a bit, then is allowing

780

the adrenaline to go down in that time

that they're chewing, and then they find

781

themselves in the crate or in the pen,

and it's much easier for them to then

782

say, okay, now I've had enough, I've done

my exercise, I've done my training, I've

783

done my enrichment, then I go for a nap.

784

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Silence.

785

Martina: all the training that you

can do to help that, which is teaching

786

them to relax on a bed and promoting

relaxation through training, so that

787

they learn actually standing still and

putting their head on their legs, on

788

their front feet, and, you know, that

kind of promoting The, the attitude of

789

relaxation through training in the house

can also improve or make, make that

790

relaxation a bit quicker, but some dogs

takes ages to, to get to that level.

791

My, you know, one year old, it took

him nearly a year to learn to actually

792

switch off in the house, which meant

that if I had to switch him off, I

793

had to put him in a place where he

could switch off rather than allowing

794

him to do it on his own in the house.

795

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Yeah, yeah, sometimes you've got

796

to sort of help them, haven't you?

797

You've got to show them that

sometimes they can't sort

798

of self regulate themselves.

799

So you kind of need to sort of,

800

Martina: Exactly.

801

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

them to do that.

802

Brilliant.

803

So that's really great.

804

So we're going to move on to our

next section, which is training

805

for connection and cooperation.

806

So what training approaches

work best for Border Collies?

807

given their intelligence and sensitivity?

808

Martina: Well, definitely

has to be positive.

809

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Absolutely.

810

Martina: But it shouldn't be permissive in

a way that you don't want to just drop all

811

your boundaries and your, you know, like

they need to have some boundaries still.

812

They need to know that some things are

not allowed, like my puppies learned

813

that they're not allowed to bite

the cats and chase the cats and eat

814

the cats like they're sheep from the

beginning, you know, because they have

815

to live with the cats in the kitchen.

816

I, you know, and so positive

training, a lot of play, I

817

like to teach them to think.

818

So I do shaping and capturing.

819

So I have a sequence of exercises

that start from teaching them to put

820

their feet in a box and then go around

a cone and then you know, go on a,

821

on a mat and then I develop other

behaviours that are used for fitness

822

in the feet when they're a bit older.

823

teaching them to think how to

obtain something rather than

824

just provide it for them.

825

You know, there's a box in front

of you, I've got a treat here,

826

I've got my clicker, what can

you do to obtain that food?

827

And they start offering behaviours

because they have the brain for it,

828

and then they learn that Yeah, get them

thinking and learn and make them learn

829

that actually, if they produce a certain

behaviour, then the rewards comes.

830

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yes.

831

Martina: So that they start offering

the good behaviour or trying to offer

832

something in order to be rewarded.

833

So I really like shaping for

that reason with colleagues.

834

I do use a lot of Primark.

835

with them, which is probably a bit

more advanced for most pet people, but

836

I like to explain it to, to owners.

837

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

yeah, definitely.

838

Martina: We train, Primack principle

states that a behaviour that is unlikely

839

to happen often gets rewarded by, I'm

sorry, a behaviour that is, that is

840

unlikely to happen, or the dog doesn't

want to do, gets reinforced by the

841

behaviour that the dogs want to do.

842

So instead of using the actual

reward, you can use behaviours

843

to reinforce other behaviours.

844

And this is how we train them on sheep.

845

We don't have treats.

846

We don't have a clicker.

847

We don't have toys.

848

If you lie down, you can walk on.

849

If you come away with the

sheep, you can go back to them.

850

If you turn left and you give space to

the sheep, then you can bring them to me.

851

So they learn with, if you do

something that you don't want to do

852

because your instinct is telling you

to do opposite, then I let you do

853

what you want to do, which is what

your instinct is telling you to do.

854

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah,

855

Martina: that way we call is even

in everyday life works really well.

856

to teach them like, you know, if I

need to remove the lid before you

857

can run off, you can sit calmly.

858

And instead of jumping on the

door to get out, you can sit

859

quietly while I open the door.

860

So teaching them that

behaviour produce behaviours,

861

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yes.

862

Martina: and that sometimes is

more powerful than any treats.

863

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Yeah, perfect.

864

How important is relationship

building when working with this braid?

865

Martina: Yes, so it's, it's.

866

It's important, like, I think, with

any dog, but some Border Collies,

867

you know, that's why I always, my

partner, I'm laughing because my

868

partner, today, my one year old

that used to be a very independent

869

dog, now he's like my second skin.

870

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Oh, okay.

871

Martina: He was very, when he

came, I was like, oh no, an

872

independent dog, I can't stand them.

873

I just want dogs that are easy to

train, that wants to be with you.

874

And now, if I'm sitting in the

kitchen, he's on me, like, he

875

sits on my lap, and, you know.

876

like a Velcro dog.

877

So they, they do become Velcro dog

if you have the right relationship.

878

And that is so much easier than

having a dog that doesn't want

879

to be a Velcro because of course,

880

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

That's interesting.

881

Martina: yes, because of course, if

you have a dog that is so interested

882

in environment, you need to have a

dog that wants to be with you so that

883

then, you know, my, as I said, my

one year old kite, we go for a walk

884

and he's in front of me jumping and

looking at me jumping and looking at me.

885

It's a bit obsessive, but that

doesn't make him chase after hairs.

886

or disappear into the woods

looking for deer, you know,

887

it helps in keeping with me.

888

And we build that through relationship and

that relationship also come through work.

889

So you can, you know, they, they do

trust you and they do want to be with you

890

once they know that they work for you.

891

whatever that work is.

892

That's why training is important

with them because the breed has been

893

bred on that work in relationship

with the, with the shepherds.

894

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

895

Mm.

896

Martina: So it's so important.

897

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

you were saying, did something

898

happen with him in today?

899

You said he was sat with

you or something, or?

900

Oh,

901

Martina: Yeah, today it was so I was

waiting for my partner to finish lunch

902

and everyone else was like Yeah, I

lie down in the kitchen and he was

903

sitting on me with his paws on my

shoulder and his head like wrapped

904

around my neck and she turns around

and looks and is like, it's disgusting.

905

It just has to be a second skin.

906

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

I see what you mean now, yeah.

907

Martina: Yeah, it is like that.

908

Yeah.

909

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

oh, I love it though.

910

I wouldn't want it any other way.

911

What, would be the mistake that

you see Border Collie Pet parents

912

making border collie guardians

making when it comes to training.

913

Mmm.

914

Martina: of idea that Border

Collies are not food motivated dogs.

915

I've never had one that didn't, you

know, if they came to me not food

916

motivated, there was a health issue.

917

And when we got past that

health issue, then the food

918

motivation came and was there.

919

And I think that the biggest

problem is because they're so busy.

920

they sometimes forget to take the treat,

they forget to eat, finish their dinner.

921

And instead of making sure that when

you offer a treat, and when you give

922

them their dinner, they're able to

take it and to finish it, they either

923

start putting too much pressure on the

fact that they have to eat, or they

924

have to take the treat, or they put

the value up, because they have to

925

eat, they're puppies, they have to eat.

926

And The biggest issue I have when I

have owners coming to me is that their

927

Border Collies don't want to work for

food because of these two reasons.

928

So then I have to work hard to put

food motivation back into the dog that

929

sees food as a kind of a sort like,

like, like a bit of a poison, you know.

930

Oh, no, you're going to put so much

pressure on me because they are

931

sensitive dogs to take that treat.

932

So that must be, you

know, I don't want it.

933

And And yeah, instead of, like, if they

have to eat, just put them in a situation

934

where they can finish their dinner.

935

And if you're offering treats, you

need to make sure that they are in a

936

situation to be able to take treats.

937

And sometimes when they're

puppies, they're not.

938

They have,

939

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

940

Martina: is the last of their problems,

but we try, you know, and everyone

941

tries their best to try because, you

know, training with food is good and

942

they try, but then that way you poison.

943

the food for them, for them.

944

So, offer food when they are able to

take it, to start with, and put them

945

in a situation to be able to take food.

946

And when they can't, then try to manage

it, don't, don't force treats on them.

947

And that way, then when they grow

a bit, and they can pay attention

948

more, and they can focus more, then

you haven't put You know, that kind

949

of bad emotion into, into food.

950

And I think that's, and the second

thing would be ball playing, probably.

951

Too much ball play, too much

ball play, and then not enough

952

relationship play, just ball play.

953

And then, if there's no ball,

then they don't pay attention.

954

They don't come back for a recall.

955

You know, they just go and do their

own things as the ball goes away.

956

So train first and then teach play in a

more kind of, in a relationship way and

957

then the ball can come in the future when

they're a bit older and they have a good

958

recall and they, you know, they, they know

how to bring a toy back and enjoy the toy

959

with you rather than just throw it at your

feet and back off to wait on the throw.

960

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Right.

961

Okay.

962

Thank you.

963

Wow.

964

We literally sailed through

this episode literally packed

965

with information and advice.

966

It's so interesting.

967

For the last sort of five to

seven minutes, I'm gonna just

968

ask you some remaining sort of

three or four questions if I may.

969

So Martina.

970

what's the most rewarding part

of working with Border Collies?

971

Martina: So I, I think that once they

get Once, once the owner and the dog

972

understand each other, it's seeing that,

and, and see their relationship growing

973

and seeing that kind of drive that we

talked about at the beginning channeled

974

into doing something for the owner.

975

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

976

Martina: Once that is achieved,

then it's amazing to see how

977

much The owners enjoy training

978

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

979

Martina: dogs enjoy working for the owner.

980

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

981

Martina: So once they get to that

point where they understand how to

982

engage with their dogs and how to,

how to make that work like being a

983

job for the dog, then, then that's it.

984

That's, that's, that's.

985

That's the best thing in the world.

986

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Yeah, brilliant.

987

And I picked up on something you

said earlier about obviously and I'm

988

really big on this, that the dog was

reading the human's body language.

989

And I'm so big on sort of like pet

owners or pet professionals learning

990

and understanding canine body language.

991

Martina: Mm hmm.

992

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

really important, isn't it, as

993

Martina: Yeah.

994

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

they read our body language

995

and our cues and they.

996

They communicate to us through their body

language, they communicate to each other.

997

So it's so powerful, isn't it,

to really understand all that.

998

Martina: Yeah, and if you think

about the boricolli have been

999

selected to read livestock behaviour.

00:49:47,515 --> 00:49:50,295

So I think they are exceptional

at reading body language.

00:49:50,950 --> 00:49:51,610

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

00:49:51,735 --> 00:49:55,405

Martina: because they've been bred to

observe the sheep and they know the

00:49:55,405 --> 00:49:56,995

sheep are moving before you even know.

00:49:57,365 --> 00:49:58,615

and that's why it's difficult.

00:49:58,815 --> 00:50:03,335

We haven't even touched about herding,

but that's why training them with

00:50:03,335 --> 00:50:06,365

sheep is difficult because the dog

sees it before you and then you're

00:50:06,365 --> 00:50:11,425

late queuing what they should be doing.

00:50:11,785 --> 00:50:16,820

So yeah, so they are good and they, but

also I think the, I think what I call is,

00:50:17,910 --> 00:50:21,060

Again, one thing that is very important

about body language and Border Collies

00:50:21,080 --> 00:50:26,380

is that a lot of the time, what looks

like fear is actually not, you know, a

00:50:26,380 --> 00:50:30,510

lot of the time, you know, the tail goes

down, the head goes down, and they look

00:50:30,510 --> 00:50:33,460

like they've got that typical attitude

that you probably have in your, in your

00:50:33,470 --> 00:50:37,290

head from the books that we started at

the beginning of our journey, where that

00:50:37,290 --> 00:50:42,780

dog is like a bit arched down, the tail

under and the ears back and the head down,

00:50:42,780 --> 00:50:44,730

and they're like, oh, he's scared, no.

00:50:45,110 --> 00:50:46,480

That's a herding stance.

00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:46,970

Yeah.

00:50:46,970 --> 00:50:47,460

Yeah.

00:50:47,570 --> 00:50:49,210

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

why I always say you've got to put

00:50:49,250 --> 00:50:53,200

it into context, and there could be

breed specific traits that they're

00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:53,720

Martina: Yeah.

00:50:54,710 --> 00:50:58,800

Yeah, so Kite, when he works,

his tail is, of my colleagues, is

00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:00,620

the one that has the best tail.

00:51:00,620 --> 00:51:01,930

That's considered the best tail.

00:51:02,230 --> 00:51:04,980

And I've been, I've been, you

know, people have, have told

00:51:04,980 --> 00:51:06,060

me, oh, he's got a good tail.

00:51:06,450 --> 00:51:11,960

The good tail is, means that his tail is

under his belly and he's so much under his

00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:13,900

belly that the tip comes out to the side.

00:51:14,515 --> 00:51:15,235

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.

00:51:15,455 --> 00:51:17,445

Martina: of his leg when he works.

00:51:17,935 --> 00:51:18,615

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

00:51:18,655 --> 00:51:21,915

Martina: see that, if I show you a

picture of that without contact, you

00:51:21,925 --> 00:51:23,585

probably see all the dog is petrified,

00:51:23,935 --> 00:51:24,625

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mmm.

00:51:25,095 --> 00:51:25,575

Mmm.

00:51:25,755 --> 00:51:26,345

Martina: scared.

00:51:26,695 --> 00:51:29,705

You know, his ears might be back

and, you know, his eyes might

00:51:29,705 --> 00:51:31,335

be a bit, no, he's hurting.

00:51:31,945 --> 00:51:32,345

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.

00:51:32,345 --> 00:51:33,149

That's

00:51:33,265 --> 00:51:33,595

Martina: Yeah.

00:51:33,805 --> 00:51:38,325

So, Yeah, that's why it's

important, as you say, for owners

00:51:38,325 --> 00:51:42,095

to read the body language, but

knowing also what dogs they have,

00:51:42,725 --> 00:51:43,075

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

00:51:43,105 --> 00:51:46,395

Martina: because in a collie that is,

can be fear, you know, it can be fear.

00:51:46,395 --> 00:51:50,365

But if they're doing it to another

dog, it could also be just that they're

00:51:50,365 --> 00:51:51,595

trying to control the other dog.

00:51:52,325 --> 00:51:53,875

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: I don't

know if it's possible or not because

00:51:53,875 --> 00:51:55,215

you said we've not touched on Herodin.

00:51:55,255 --> 00:51:58,445

Did you want to just give us

a quick overview of Herodin?

00:51:58,445 --> 00:52:00,045

Good.

00:52:00,115 --> 00:52:02,635

Martina: Yes, I would like to say

something because that's a question

00:52:02,635 --> 00:52:06,485

I get asked a lot of the time from

dog owners and, and colleagues about,

00:52:06,505 --> 00:52:07,909

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mmm.

00:52:07,909 --> 00:52:09,313

Yeah.

00:52:09,885 --> 00:52:15,215

Martina: starting herding as a hobby

to help them, you know, having an

00:52:15,225 --> 00:52:17,555

enriched life and to give them an outlet.

00:52:17,775 --> 00:52:21,285

And I, I've been doing it, you

know, I've had this farm for a year.

00:52:21,315 --> 00:52:25,155

Before that, I was doing

herding as a hobby with my dogs.

00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:30,100

And I've done it since my very first dog,

she was a show line, she wasn't even a

00:52:30,100 --> 00:52:33,600

working line, but she was working for

me, then I had Moss, then I got Jock,

00:52:34,030 --> 00:52:38,620

then I got Tay, which is my, my main

working dog, but he started herding as

00:52:38,620 --> 00:52:43,100

a hobby, as a, as a kind of every other

week activity, when he was one, and

00:52:43,100 --> 00:52:47,440

he's four now, so I've done it with all

my colleagues as a kind of activity,

00:52:48,010 --> 00:52:53,415

but I will always Say to my students

that wants to start or my colleagues

00:52:53,415 --> 00:52:57,185

that ask me, where can I go with my

students colleague that needs an activity

00:52:57,925 --> 00:52:59,565

because they want to chase everything.

00:53:00,115 --> 00:53:04,815

I always say, you know, it's not always

the best choice because you can't

00:53:04,815 --> 00:53:08,335

just take the call it to ship once

a month or once every other weekend.

00:53:08,585 --> 00:53:11,655

And then if you have a month of rain

and you never go back and then you go

00:53:11,655 --> 00:53:13,315

back because some colleagues needs.

00:53:13,675 --> 00:53:19,315

daily exposure to sheep to be able

to actually train and progress and

00:53:19,315 --> 00:53:22,415

actually listen and be safe for the

sheep, because we have not forget

00:53:22,415 --> 00:53:24,515

the herding is about the sheep.

00:53:25,070 --> 00:53:26,710

The sheep are our main concern.

00:53:26,740 --> 00:53:31,340

We train dogs so that we can manage

our livestock in a good welfare.

00:53:31,675 --> 00:53:36,745

You know, and, and having dogs means that

I'm not, you know, I, I, I can move ship

00:53:36,775 --> 00:53:41,055

easily and calmly from one place to the

other without the ships getting stressed,

00:53:41,405 --> 00:53:45,045

which means that it's important that

the dogs doesn't stress the ship out.

00:53:45,135 --> 00:53:48,875

And unless you do it regularly,

some dogs won't allow you that.

00:53:49,165 --> 00:53:53,195

So you start an activity with

them that it might not be able to

00:53:53,745 --> 00:53:55,455

progress because they are too much.

00:53:55,455 --> 00:53:57,315

Like Moss couldn't do it as a hobby.

00:53:57,705 --> 00:54:00,195

He had to stop when he was three

because he was biting sheep.

00:54:00,875 --> 00:54:01,715

So I had to stop.

00:54:02,355 --> 00:54:05,345

Yeah, he had a big grip and

that grip was excitement and

00:54:05,530 --> 00:54:09,405

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Okay.

00:54:09,565 --> 00:54:10,175

Martina: have that.

00:54:10,495 --> 00:54:14,185

But if I had a farm back then, I could

have trained that out of him quicker

00:54:14,225 --> 00:54:16,905

because I could give him a lot of job

and then he will, you know, he will

00:54:16,905 --> 00:54:18,305

be calm every time he goes to sheep.

00:54:18,805 --> 00:54:21,855

So it's not always the

best activity for pet dogs.

00:54:21,855 --> 00:54:23,445

But if you have.

00:54:23,735 --> 00:54:25,075

You know, but some of my students do it.

00:54:25,085 --> 00:54:28,805

They come to me or I send them to someone

else that, you know, I'm not, it's not my

00:54:28,805 --> 00:54:33,045

job training dogs, training other people's

dogs on sheep, but I have a few students

00:54:33,045 --> 00:54:37,685

that are also friends that trust me and

they come and do it with me every now

00:54:37,685 --> 00:54:39,665

and then and they are safe for the sheep.

00:54:40,155 --> 00:54:43,765

So, so they do it and then they might

not do it for a month and then when they

00:54:43,765 --> 00:54:46,295

come back it takes them a bit to calm

down, but then they're able to do it.

00:54:46,735 --> 00:54:51,265

So yeah, so herding is a great activity,

but not everyone can do it, it's not

00:54:51,265 --> 00:54:52,995

always the best choice for pet dogs.

00:54:53,665 --> 00:54:55,875

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

So definitely seek out a specialist

00:54:55,935 --> 00:54:59,235

professional like yourself

before we, we do hurt him.

00:55:00,135 --> 00:55:03,705

Martina: Yeah, or someone that has,

you know, ideally more, more experience

00:55:03,705 --> 00:55:08,515

than me, but expect it not to, you

know, to be a big, big commitment.

00:55:08,515 --> 00:55:10,235

So

00:55:10,310 --> 00:55:11,330

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

you for touching on that.

00:55:11,620 --> 00:55:15,160

If you could give one piece of advice

to someone struggling with their

00:55:15,160 --> 00:55:16,900

border colleague, what would it be?

00:55:20,595 --> 00:55:23,015

Martina: having a border collie

is like having a second job.

00:55:23,765 --> 00:55:27,445

You need to really, it's a full time

job, so if you have already a full time

00:55:27,445 --> 00:55:28,835

job, it's your second full time job.

00:55:29,090 --> 00:55:29,540

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.

00:55:29,595 --> 00:55:32,575

Martina: If, of course, you know, if

you have one of those border collies

00:55:32,575 --> 00:55:36,435

that needs a bit more work you know,

it takes me half a day to train, go

00:55:36,435 --> 00:55:38,125

through all mine when I train them.

00:55:38,195 --> 00:55:43,565

And I don't train everyone every day,

but when I do, it's my day off, but half

00:55:43,565 --> 00:55:45,505

a day is gone just to train four dogs.

00:55:45,810 --> 00:55:46,290

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.

00:55:46,905 --> 00:55:49,015

Martina: I know, Sunday

should have been my day off.

00:55:49,670 --> 00:55:51,990

And I said, Oh, today I'm just

going to take the afternoon off and

00:55:52,110 --> 00:55:54,540

a half past four in the afternoon,

I was still outside training dogs.

00:55:54,540 --> 00:55:57,430

And I was like, Oh, okay, maybe tomorrow.

00:55:57,810 --> 00:56:03,190

So yeah, so it's, if you, if you're

struggling, you need to put the work in.

00:56:03,290 --> 00:56:04,760

There's not going to be a quick fix.

00:56:05,340 --> 00:56:07,330

There's not going to be, even

if you come to me, I'm not going

00:56:07,330 --> 00:56:10,620

to give you a solution straight

away that you need to commit.

00:56:10,660 --> 00:56:11,840

You need to be consistent.

00:56:12,740 --> 00:56:17,040

You need to be, you know,

committed and consistent so that.

00:56:17,815 --> 00:56:21,765

You put the work in and that's the

only way your dog is going to improve.

00:56:22,045 --> 00:56:23,565

And I know that that's for everyone.

00:56:23,625 --> 00:56:25,245

That's, that's for every dog training.

00:56:25,755 --> 00:56:29,925

But because they are a work, they

are a breed that needs work anyway.

00:56:31,085 --> 00:56:33,845

It's, it's even more important to

understand that it's not, you're not

00:56:33,885 --> 00:56:37,365

going to do eight weeks of training

and that's, the dog is fixed.

00:56:37,375 --> 00:56:38,665

You have a Border Collie forever.

00:56:39,370 --> 00:56:40,540

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Trainings for life.

00:56:41,425 --> 00:56:44,795

Martina: Yeah, until they get to an

age where they can start slowing down,

00:56:44,955 --> 00:56:47,895

but it's different to everyone, you

know, even if you ask me a question,

00:56:47,895 --> 00:56:48,825

when do they start slowing down?

00:56:48,825 --> 00:56:53,225

Moss is 14 and he still wants to do

things, you know, if I don't take him

00:56:53,225 --> 00:56:56,625

out for a walk, a little walk, but

still a walk every day, or he spends

00:56:56,625 --> 00:57:00,045

half an hour in the paddock with the

others, he's a pain in the evening

00:57:00,045 --> 00:57:03,845

sometimes, because he's got too much

brain energy, body energy, not a lot,

00:57:03,935 --> 00:57:06,165

but brain energy is still there at 14,

00:57:06,920 --> 00:57:07,830

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Oh, bless him.

00:57:08,160 --> 00:57:12,600

And I picked, like, with a lot of

train consistency is key, isn't it?

00:57:13,235 --> 00:57:13,545

Martina: yeah.

00:57:13,925 --> 00:57:14,465

Definitely.

00:57:15,100 --> 00:57:17,510

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: what

do you wish more people understood

00:57:17,550 --> 00:57:19,440

before getting their border collie?

00:57:21,045 --> 00:57:22,165

Martina: How much work they are.

00:57:22,690 --> 00:57:23,110

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

00:57:23,110 --> 00:57:24,432

Yeah.

00:57:24,435 --> 00:57:26,815

Martina: I think nobody

realizes until you are in it.

00:57:27,076 --> 00:57:28,398

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

00:57:28,398 --> 00:57:29,720

Yeah.

00:57:29,815 --> 00:57:31,635

Martina: don't get me wrong, you

can still get the one like Tay.

00:57:31,635 --> 00:57:34,805

Tay, my, my, my main

working dog at the farm now.

00:57:34,825 --> 00:57:36,095

He is the easiest dog.

00:57:36,105 --> 00:57:39,265

You know, if I could clone him, it would

be the perfect dog to give to all the

00:57:39,265 --> 00:57:41,095

people that wants, you know, a pet dog.

00:57:41,805 --> 00:57:44,455

You know, he could have been a

pet dog as well as a working dog,

00:57:44,935 --> 00:57:46,185

but he's the only one of mine.

00:57:47,230 --> 00:57:50,140

over, you know, over five

working dogs is the only one

00:57:50,150 --> 00:57:52,400

that really could have done both.

00:57:52,880 --> 00:57:53,510

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

00:57:54,070 --> 00:57:57,660

Martina: all the others just have

too much to just be pet dogs.

00:57:58,010 --> 00:57:58,130

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

00:57:58,955 --> 00:57:59,565

Brilliant.

00:57:59,800 --> 00:58:00,650

Martina: they are hard work.

00:58:01,705 --> 00:58:03,445

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

work, but rewarding, I'm sure.

00:58:03,525 --> 00:58:03,865

Very

00:58:03,985 --> 00:58:05,125

Martina: Oh, yeah, I love it.

00:58:05,175 --> 00:58:05,565

I love it.

00:58:05,565 --> 00:58:06,635

But you need to love.

00:58:06,835 --> 00:58:10,635

And the good thing is that a lot of

my students, they come to me when they

00:58:10,635 --> 00:58:14,005

have no idea what training is, and then

they become obsessed about training.

00:58:14,375 --> 00:58:14,925

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yes.

00:58:14,925 --> 00:58:17,355

Martina: they are the one

that becomes really good.

00:58:17,385 --> 00:58:19,195

And then they want to learn more.

00:58:19,195 --> 00:58:23,625

And then they go into do, you know,

other sports and agility or obedience

00:58:23,625 --> 00:58:27,175

or scent work or some of them, you

know, started a bit of hurting with me.

00:58:28,025 --> 00:58:32,755

So yeah, they then become

obsessed because how good it is.

00:58:33,370 --> 00:58:33,620

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Brilliant.

00:58:35,250 --> 00:58:35,380

thank you.

00:58:35,380 --> 00:58:36,720

I'm going to put you on the spot now.

00:58:36,720 --> 00:58:41,680

One question I didn't make you aware

of, but we've got lots of fantastic

00:58:41,690 --> 00:58:43,680

guests lined up for the Yappy Hour.

00:58:43,990 --> 00:58:48,580

We've got vets, groomers,

behaviourists, more breeds, Pacific

00:58:48,580 --> 00:58:53,060

specialists, lots of different

amazing guests, including yourself.

00:58:53,420 --> 00:58:56,900

But if there was one person you

think that I should invite on to

00:58:56,900 --> 00:58:58,680

the Yappy Hour, who would that be?

00:59:02,215 --> 00:59:03,645

This always gets people thinking.

00:59:06,965 --> 00:59:09,795

Martina: Yes, so I have a very

good friend, which has been