Episode 1

[Helen] At Moorhouse, we are running a Women in Energy campaign to shine a light on what it's like for women working in and being consumers of the energy and utility sector. We are exploring some of the challenges and opportunities across industry, as well as some of the ED&I initiatives energy companies are already implementing to drive greater diversity.

As part of this campaign, we are producing a podcast series, bringing together women in the sector that we admire, with the aim of understanding a bit more about their experience within the sector, as well as discussing the consumer side of energy.

I'm Helen Richardson, a People and Change Director at Moorhouse, and I'm your host.

00:53

With us today, we have Elizabeth Lawler, the Chief Operating Officer of Retail Energy Code Company. Elizabeth brings over 20 years’ experience in multi-party governance, frameworks and industry codes, having worked across Elexon, ElectroLink and now RECCo.

Elizabeth is a regulation expert and played a pivotal role in the inception of RECCo, undertaking the design, procurement and implementation of RECCo services. More recently, she oversaw the implementation of faster switching arrangements within the REC.

We also have Jenny Booth, Head of Market-wide Half Hourly Settlement at OFGEM. Jenny has worked at OFGEM for over 20 years with experience leading and delivering regulatory, policy, system and process design change.

Jenny is a regulatory expert with additional experience at government level and across European policy development.

01:54

At this point, I'd like to invite our guest speakers today. Jenny, could you tell us a bit more about your work, your journey, experiences, and being a woman in the sector?

[Jenny] Hi there, nice to be here, very excited. I've been in this sector over 20 years. I've had that administrative experience up to a leadership experience.

It's evolved. I have to say the sector has moved slowly, but it's moving positively. As a woman, as a Black woman also, and I'm actually quite comfortable in this industry now, putting my views across, sometimes being listened to, sometimes not, but we have learnt skills of how we can deal with that. And I think the evolution of equality and diversity policies and practices has made it a lot more comfortable for people and women in particular, to actually come into this industry and be their authentic self, which is another point that I think is not seen if you're outside the industry.

02:57

[Elizabeth] I've been in the industry for about 25 years now, since the turn of the century and in a similar way have come up through administrative positions and now I'm Chief Operating Officer at RECCo. I started at Elexon and I was the post girl. My job was to literally open the mail take it around the organisation, cover reception at lunchtime and I absolutely loved that role. I was straight out of University and what I realised is that I'm naturally a problem solver and every day was a different sort of challenge.

So, I've been reflecting on thinking about quite often in those situations I was the only woman in the room and now when that happens, I still notice it, but I notice in a different way because it's no longer the norm. So, just that representation of women in the industry. There's so, so many more.

03:45

[Helen] Okay, thank you both. What I found interesting is a common thread across you both is that start in a more administrative role. I'm interested to know if you believe your gender made a difference through that journey. Jenny, you talked a few times about the evolution, it feeling more evolved. Could you tell me a bit more about that?

[Jenny] Similar to Elizabeth there in terms of being the only woman and I will come back to this only woman of colour in some instances. Getting women in at that decision-making directorship level leadership level, I think it's a lot easier now. It isn't perfect. There is still a lack of women of colour at those levels as well, but I think that will come.

[Elizabeth] Certainly your gender makes a difference. So, you know, being a woman in the industry very conscious of that in the early days, less so now and I think what sort of changed the dial a little bit was as my expertise and experience grew and I could be seen to have the answers to questions, then my gender seemed to matter less, and that's a really positive thing actually, that people you can be seen as an equal based on your knowledge and experience. That means there's room for everybody.

[Jenny] I want to come in on that confidence point and that knowledge and experience do go a long way to making you feel confident.

[Elizabeth] But also, it's okay to ask questions and quite often you ask the question and you see everybody else go, ‘oh okay, you know that's something that I could have asked,’ there's that balance isn't there between your confidence grows as you have more knowledge and experience, but also being unafraid to ask questions.

[Helen] Both of you spoke with different experiences to the growth and confidence you've had and it being okay when you don't have all the answers, but it's the confidence to pull that out.

05:32

Staying on that theme, I'm keen to know if you could give yourself advice at the start of your career in energy, what would be your takeaways?

[Elizabeth] The first thing, if I was looking back and talking to myself specifically, it would be to have self-belief, trust your instincts. If you're not sure about something then have the self-belief because it's really frustrating to be in a meeting or be in a situation where you don't say anything, you're not sure and then somebody else isn't. Damn it, I was right. I would say that to myself. Not to be intimidated. It's easy to be intimidated, especially when you're new into role.

There are so many good people out there willing to help you. That's one thing I found about this industry is people are so generous with their time, with their support. Someone will have the answers and to build those relationships, make those networks, make those connections, trust your instincts, self-belief, and make the most of the opportunities where you find them with other people.

[Jenny] We used to be in the office five days a week. It was a lot easier to make those networks and make those connections. Hybrid working, I think, has made the need for networks more important to support people, especially if you don't know.

The world has changed since we both started in this industry. And sort of looking back, I have to echo the point about having the self-belief, but also the confidence to ask more questions and your point about people being generous. You're absolutely right. And the other point I want to say, the industry is dynamic. It changes all the time. And I can guarantee there is probably not one person who knows absolutely everything about the industry.

Asking a question is not a negative thing. It is very much about showing your interest and you want to know and you want to be your better self in the industry.

07:21

[Elizabeth] And Jenny, as you were talking, I was just thinking, because sometimes when we're in the position we're in now, it's kind of easy to say that, isn't it?

Be confident, ask questions. And I was just thinking, well, actually, how can we in our positions now help those people? So I always remember I had a boss that I'd say something and he'd say, ‘what I think Elizabeth was trying to say, what I think she meant.’

And it's the absolute opposite of that. If someone, anyone really, but in particular women, maybe more junior, make a point in the meeting, ‘That's a really good point that so-and -so has just made. I agree’, just amplifying their voice because we're at a stage where most of the time people will listen and give us the attention. I think men can do that as well because to say ‘that's a really good point I agree. I'm glad you made that point, X.’ Name them, then other people go, ‘Oh, didn't she make a good point’, you know I think that's a great thing to be able to do for people, isn't it, and we don't necessarily think to take the time to do that enough.

08:24

[Helen] I heard a lot that people at the start of their career in this industry can take away. There were four words that really stood out for me - allyship the power of allyship amplifying others’ voices, acknowledging people, use of name, and the last one that I've slipped in but Jenny I think you were alluding to, was appearance - being seen.

And it's made me reflect. Jenny, and I were at the same industry event on Tuesday and the first four speakers were women - the SRO, the sponsor, one of the leads in the programme, the compère was female. That was a real moment for me, actually, to see so many strong, powerful women holding the floor and leading an industry-wide event.

[Elizabeth] That's a definite shift, isn't it? And I agree with you. As I said, it's about more and more women coming in, that representation, but seeing them in senior roles.

09:23

[Jenny] At the top of the podcast, we were talking about women as consumers with this industry. And, funnily enough, before I thought about that, I didn't really pull women out separately, but there were lots of stats about the majority of single-parent households are women, women being maybe the primary earner, all different kinds of perspectives.

Does the industry really target women? Are we looking through the lens of women? I'm not sure we are actively doing that. I think there is some work to be done to actually bring that out to the fore a little bit more because women still, unfortunately, have most of the domestic responsibilities, and therefore, if you like, they’re the main user of energy in the home because of that.

So, are we listening to their voices in the same way? And I think, and maybe because I haven't read enough about it, I think there is a bit of work to be done in that space.

[Elizabeth] I agree with you, Jenny, and it's interesting because when you raise that as a topic, I thought, that's not something I've considered before. And I started to think about it, and like you kind of went, oh, hang on a minute, it makes absolute sense, doesn't it, that women are probably the primary consumers, if you like, in terms of using the products at home, doing the heating and doing the eating, if you like. Those kinds of responsibilities. And I would say that, being reflecting on this, I certainly don't see targeted advice that identifies women in that role, and therefore, is able to provide kind of help and support.

And then I was thinking about my social community. I've got a relatively young family, I'm on mum's groups and things like that, my local community network and what I've definitely seen is an uptake in women posting on those groups about reducing their energy consumption, about ways to do that. Not so much, am I with the right suppliers should I switch, but actually things like I've got an air fryer so I don't have to switch the oven on. These are probably quite high consumers of energy and they're probably fairly in relatively affluent situations, but you that tells you that the impact of energy costs is hitting everyone. I don't see targeted advice I don't see that necessarily being taken into account.

[Jenny] I agree with you, I think it was a new thing for me to actually think about how we are devising policy for women consumers, the end consumer, and also thinking about a lot of women have their own micro businesses and are we targeting them in a particular way as well?

I know a few women who have got their own little business and they used to share accommodation to do their little micro businesses but again, they have to pay for the energy but they are treated as a business consumer, and have we thought about their understanding of how they use their energy as well? There is a question to be asked and considered around women.

[Elizabeth] You remind me of a radio interview I heard of probably a couple of years ago now when we were just looking at price increases and the impact of that and it was talking about the impact on small businesses and things that I just hadn't considered like if you have a hairdressing salon or a beauty salon, you have to wash your towels after each person that's been in. It's going to affect everyone, but just again taking that time to think about not to look at a homogenous group of people, but to go how is this impacting you specifically?

[Helen] We do know that on average women do 60% more of the unpaid labour in the household which equates to roughly 26 hours a week, 20 of which require energy. So, what we've heard from you both is I heard you talking about more targeted advice for women. You might be seeing a bit of that through networks, we're not aware of anything kind of more official or at an industry level.

13:14

I'd like to know if you think is there anything else we can do to ensure women are better served by the sector?

[Elizabeth] I think there's just one thing I would say because it's easy isn't it? I'm so conscious that as women we carry the burden for so much.

To make it another thing to worry about - so there is definitely identifying that this is an issue that affects women and looking for ways to help, yes. But I think I'd just be really careful to go don't make that ‘oh it's the woman's problem to reduce the consumption’ and that's actually quite key in striking the balance isn't it? I feel that's another thing to add to my list to worry about. But in order to even explore that, you have to identify it as an issue.

[Jenny] I think you're absolutely right about the narrative asking the various female cohorts out there as consumers, ‘what do you need to know about energy’? ‘What are your concerns about energy?’ And one thing I always because I'm a city girl, I forget about the rural side of this and women pensioners, for example, who are on their own in rural societies and so on.

We really need to just make sure I think the first bit is ask. Ask through whatever means we have: Citizens Advice, Saga if you want to do the age perspective, and so on, and various community groups, but I think it's just about asking in the first instance.

[Elizabeth] I think you've nailed it. It's so easy to make assumptions we rush to solution don't we but actually ask the question is this something you're experiencing - what do you need, how can we help? I don't see that particularly, that's not I don't recognise that as something that's necessarily happening.

[Helen] I think the data insights point that you raised, Jenny, it feels like there's some data missing for us to build this picture.

[Jenny] Maybe I haven't seen it or maybe it just hasn't been us.

[Elizabeth] Yeah, no, I think you've unearthed something, unearthed something that's worth a look at.

15:02

[Helen] I just want to talk about balancing the scales. So, we've talked about the evolution that we've seen in the industry, but the continued need, continued efforts to promote inclusion and representation. I'd love to hear if either of you have examples of where being a woman has supported driving forward a piece of work.

[Jenny] Oh, that's an interesting one. I think, just looking back at my career, I think in the world now, I think there are a lot more positives of being a woman in what is now a technical industry. I think it has made people stop and ask a question about women's confidence in an industry. I think, unfortunately, it does come back to being seasoned, experienced in the industry. And it still comes down to a bit of confidence as well.

I can't think of anything off the top of my head where being a woman was a key factor in pushing forward policy decisions.

[Elizabeth] And I probably think similar when I think about industry programmes, perspective or things I've delivered professionally in that sense. No, but you know, that's probably a good thing to be honest with you. It's certainly not a bad thing to go, well, actually, industry programmes are kind of agnostic. It doesn't matter. Where I probably would see it is internal policies and procedures helping your organisation grow and develop in terms of how it treats its employees.

And just again, that's about being able to bring that experience and perspective to help shape things, whatever it may be, just about being able to go, this is my perspective. This is my experience that maybe wouldn't have otherwise been in the room or being considered.

[Jenny] Yeah, I think I agree. It's those corporate developments and making sure that the impact on women, irrespective of their role in that organisation is taken into account, actively taken into account.

[Elizabeth] Exactly, normalising, you know, not starting meetings at half past four, recognising that you're going to potentially lose some of your employees or making that acceptable.

[Helen] That's really helpful, I think the influence internally in organisations of policies and procedures and ways of working is really powerful and fantastic to hear, actually, in terms of day-to-day delivery, gender not being necessarily the driver for reaching outcomes that you wanted to achieve.

17:28

[Helen] Coming towards the end of the discussion, and I feel like there's a lot of recurrent themes that we've talked about, power of allyship, the importance of confidence. I'd love to hear if you have any ideas about how we encourage more men to get involved in standing up, supporting better gender equality within the sector?

[Jenny] All right, evoking the floodgates, how many minutes do I have? So, one thing I'm actively doing this year is mentoring, and we have this new... relatively new idea of reverse mentoring. So, I am looking for men as a mentor, but also to do some reverse mentoring, be it from a race perspective or a woman's perspective.

I think that is one of the key things we should start working through.

[Elizabeth] Jenny, sorry to interrupt, can I stick to my own rule and ask the question? I don't know what reverse mentoring is.

[Jenny] So you have this idea of a mentor of somebody who's got the experience and knowledge who then can impart that experience and knowledge to somebody else who hasn't been through it. Reverse mentoring is usually somebody maybe of a lower grade or a different perspective. Then mentoring somebody who may be more senior to sort of get that perspective and then hopefully influence how they behave going forward in terms of policy setting or any of their corporate responsibilities, taking into account that new perspective.

[Elizabeth] Okay, that's really interesting and my brain's just gone, ‘ooh’, because that opens up so many different opportunities, challenges, really, really interesting. I really like that because we're sitting here and we're saying that you need to hear those different voices, but we also need to as well. We giving our opinion freely, aren't we? We need to hear and have that shared perspective as well.

[Helen] And your point that you mentioned at the start, Jenny, on the power of reverse mentoring and shadowing and opportunities like that, I sort of see that as a real enabler for driving all of those points that you've said can be very powerful.

19:36

So, this is my final question, save the best till last, and to stay true to the theme of keeping this positive and uplifting, optimistic. I'd love to hear from you both. What are you most excited for in the sector?

[Jenny] All right, I'll go first. What I've always liked about this sector is the variety. Oh my gosh, there's nothing that's the same. Change is the only constant in this market and this sector. So, the opportunities to think differently, look at things differently, express the challenge differently is there. I think now coming out of the various crises in the energy market, the pandemic, is now looking forward.

What is the market we want? What are the services that consumers want? And just as we were talking about women as end consumers, do we need to change the narrative and the perspective going forward? And as I said, lots of change and lots of opportunities in the market. So I think now is a good time. If anyone wants to come into the energy market, or work any aspects of energy and GB, I think now is a good time.

[Helen] The variety and the opportunity that will present is fantastic to hear. Elizabeth, anything you would want to add?

[Elizabeth] I think it's a similar perspective, to be honest with you. So the industry certainly moves in cycles, doesn't it?

But you're right, it never stands still. There's always something happening sort of personal level. I said at the outset, I'm a problem solver. And every day presents itself with something new. So, on a personal level, that change is exciting.

It genuinely feels that there is an opportunity to make a difference. And when I talk to my children about what I do, I can talk about it through that environmental lens. And I think that's probably what is giving most people that motivation to do the right thing, to make some changes.

[Helen] The power of the energy industry, when it touches financial, political, and as you were saying, environmental issues, I think is a very exciting place to be, especially at the moment, given, as you said, a lot of the change, the change is constant, I think has really resonated.

So thank you so much both for your time. It's been an honour to be able to hear about your experiences and your insights. We're bringing together two experienced women in this industry. So, to hear your perspectives, those lessons learned. Thank you so much for taking the time to pay those forward, as we discussed in the episode.

[Jenny] Thank you, thank you for inviting me.

[Elizabeth] These are the conversations that are important, aren't they? This is the way that things happen.

Thank you.