This podcast episode delves into the remarkable connection between Jim Thorpe and the illustrious Heisman Trophy winners, particularly focusing on the art of drop kicking, a skill that has largely vanished from contemporary football. We embark on a historical exploration of this once-celebrated technique, illustrating how it was executed by legendary players before the advent of the forward pass rendered it obsolete. As we navigate through the annals of football history, we unearth the stories of remarkable athletes who excelled in this craft, including those who eventually received the Heisman distinction. By examining the evolution of the football itself and the changing dynamics of the sport, we illuminate the factors that contributed to the decline of the drop kick. Join us as we celebrate the legacy of these extraordinary figures and the forgotten skills that defined an era of football that stands in stark contrast to the modern game we witness today.

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Miss our football by the day of the year podcasts, well, don't because they can still be found at the Pigskin Dispatch website.

In our thorough exploration of the relationship between Jim Thorpe and the evolution of football kicking techniques, we present an engaging examination of the historical context that birthed the Heisman Trophy and its connection to the art of drop kicking. The conversation traverses the timeline of football, analyzing how the transition from drop kicking to place kicking reflects broader changes in the sport’s dynamics, including advancements in training, athlete specialization, and game strategy. We also delve into the implications of these changes on the identity of football players, particularly the shifting perception of the kicker's role within the team framework. By engaging with the nuances of these historical developments, we encourage our audience to appreciate the intricate interplay between tradition and innovation in football, emphasizing the importance of understanding sports history as we navigate its modern iterations. Ultimately, this episode serves as a testament to the enduring legacy of athletes like Jim Thorpe while simultaneously inviting a critical examination of how past practices inform the present and future of the game.

If you think modern football's high flying,.

You missed the craziest era of the sport.

Welcome back to the Pig Pen, where today we're exploring the incredible link between Jim Thorpe and the elite Heisman Trophy winners who dominated the gridiron by drop kicking. Long before the forward pass took over, legends were scoring field goals by bouncing the ball off the turf mid run hit.

Subscribe as we unearth football history behind this extinct skill and how the football's own evolution even killed it and the icons who did it best.

Hello, my football friends. This is Darren Hayes of pigskindispatch.com welcome once again to the Pig Pen, your portal to positive football history.

And welcome to another Tuesday where we get to sit down and have a nice chat with our friend Timothy Brown of FootballArchaeology.com Tim, welcome back to the Pig Pen.

Hey there. Good to see you again. It seems like a long time, probably only one week or so, but anyways, yeah, let's get to it.

Got to talk about tangentially related to a famous football player and then some Heisman folks.

Yeah, we'll be talking about an article you wrote, jim Thorpe and the Drop Kicking Heisman Trophy Winners. And, you know, Jim Thorpe just celebrated. Uh, we celebrated the date of his birth. He's no longer with us, but, uh, just the last week.

So we had a nice article that on pigskindispatch.com and had some fun with remembering Jim Thorpe.

And we're gonna have a little bit.

Of fun with him today and some other great stars from football legends. So we'd love to hear about your story.

Yeah, I'm intrigued already.

Yeah. So, yeah, actually, this one's, you know, Jim Thorpe really, to my knowledge, doesn't have anything to do with the Heisman.

It was just that somebody had, you know, a reader had kind of said, hey, take a look at this film.

I think he kicks two or three, you know, times during the movie.

So he's like, goes to like a high school or a college team, if I remember correctly, like demoing. It's an older Jim Thorpe that's kicking.

But yeah, so he, for whatever reason he's at this, at this college and it's kind of a dumb story, but anyways, it was just. The point is it was an opportunity to see Jim Thorpe drop kicking. Now I don't remember seeing any film of him during his true playing days.

I don't remember seeing any film of, at all of him. But you know, maybe, maybe it's out there and I just haven't seen it.

But for some reason then I was like, well, I wonder who the last Heisman Trophy winner was. Who. Or did any Heisman Trophy winners ever kick, ever drop kick? You know, because obviously there's the, you know, Doug Flutie doing it in the.

As kind of a, it was kind of a circus event, you know, him doing it in an NFL game. But back to the real time, you know, Heisman didn't appear until the 30, till 35 or 36, whichever one it was.

And so it was like, okay, the drop kick was definitely on the downfall by then. You know, the ball had changed and you know, just place kicking and you know, snapping was better.

Everything about it, you know, it made more sense to, to place, you know, snap, replace kick rather than drop kick.

But each one I have to like search for their name and drop kick and place kick. And so best as I can tell, there were a lot.

You know, I mean, look, so like I researched the guys like starting with Jay Burwinger, who was not a kicker. So some of, some didn't kick at all. But you know, Davey o', Brien, place kick, Tom Harmon, place kick for Frank Sink, which place kick?

Angelo Bertelli, Doc Blanchard, Doak Walker, Vic Janowitz. I mean all those guys place kicked, including, you know, in college games and NFL games and stuff like that. So.

But he, he drop kicked 11 of 17 pats, so. Which is again one of those things like we think of the PAT is so automatic, but for them it was still, you know, kind of a chance.

You thing, you know, you got a big program like Iowa, a guy who's a Heisman Trophy winner, though not so much for his drop kicking, but you know, it just tells you, you know, you know, we take it for granted that you're going to make it. Right.

I mean, isn't it kind of funny and ironic that you know, back in that era, usually your best athlete on the team is your, your kicker. He's the one kicking for points now. Sort of look at it. They might be the worst athletes on the teams that doing the kicking. Yeah, yeah.

That's actually kind of cha. There's. There's enough money in it now that some really fine athletes are, are kicking now, you know. But any.

Yeah, but to your point for sure, you know, and a lot of that too.

Even like, you know, before they had decent long snapping, you know, you, they do the tumble pass, you know, it was basically the fullback or earlier on they'd snap it to the quarterback and he'd pitch it back to the, to the fullback or a halfback, you know. Yeah. So that's who they didn't have. Typically teams didn't have a punter like even.

A lot of times he wouldn't even take like an end out of his position. It was one of the backs all the time. So then.

I don't think he normally was even their PAT guy. So maybe you know, injuries or something like that.

So anyways, the fifth and seventh Heisman Trophy winners drop kicked in college games and as far as I can tell, that's it.

Except for, for college. Just those two guys and then Doug Flutie and the, the pros.

Yeah. So yeah, I mean, and you, you know, there's just a lot of obviously very talented athletes, you know, but they, most of them were place kicking.

But by the time the Heisman are rolled around, you know, even those guys were place kicking rather than drop kicking.

So it just kind of tells you how quick, you know, I mean the ball, you know, they redid the ball in 30, 29 and 34 and then the Heisman shows up in 35. So, you know, pretty quickly drop kicking just started.

I mean, based on this evidence, it's not the greatest evidence in the world, but, you know, just kind of tells you it dropped off pretty quick. And most, most people are place kicking. So.

Yeah, I mean, do you ever think that maybe. I know the ball's a different shape so it's going to be a lot harder to do.

But you know, they were a few years ago they were looking to try to, you know, in the NFL anyway to make the extra point be more challenging. So they moved it back and they, you know, they played around with some of the rules on that a little bit.

But, but do you ever think they would come back and say, hey, we'll give you, you know, a three point extra point if you drop kick it, you know, or something to, to challenge it, to spice things up? And I think that that'd be kind of, kind of neat if they did that.

Yeah, you know, it's one of those things.

It's like, you know, the, I think in general people wouldn't do it other than in situations where like we're down by nine, you know, and you know, so, you know, generally they're, you know, coaches are just going to play it much more conservatively, you know, just because now, you know, I don't remember, you know, maybe when I was 12, I tried drop kicking a football, but I don't remember having done it probably since then.

So I don't really have a great sense of how difficult it is, you know, but with today playing on artificial turf and then well maintained grass fields,.

That's not too lumpy out there anymore.

Yeah, yeah.

Now, you know, in bad weather, you know, if it's snowy or rainy or muddy, you know, then that gets into a different deal, but otherwise it's going to bounce. True. It's just a matter of how, how, how much control can you have dropping it, you know, because you still got to drop it.

It's got to hit the, you know, hit the ground and just, you know,.

Barely come off and the timing of your foot hitting it and everything else. Maybe when we hang up here, I'll call the rock up and see if we can get the UFL to get that in or usually NFL and well,.

They're the ones, they're gonna. It's like a 60 yard field goal is worth like four points or something like that.

Right, Right. Yeah. They seem to be the most innovative lately about trying to.

Yeah. I don't know if that's innovative or desperate.

Yeah, it's probably. Probably a little bit.

Well, because. And I think they happened a couple times when they first put that in out. I wrote it in a tidbit.

It's like, okay, just wait until somebody deliberate, deliberately loses yardage to get past 60.

Right.

And they did it. It ended up happening, I think, in the first or second week.

The dynamic kickoff, it came from crazy ufl, and they put it in the NFL, and who knows, maybe college will.

Pick it up someday, but let's hope not.

Yeah, I. I kind of like it. It's kind of grown on me. I. I kind of enjoy it. It makes a kickoff in the NFL exciting again. It was getting pretty boring.

Yeah, well, to each their own, I will say.

All right. Well, Tim, you know, this is another one of those cases where, you know, Jim Thorpe and Heisman aren't together, but dropkicking is.

And you did a lot of research and you found something interesting, an interesting story to talk about and to write about when you first wrote your tidbit. And you do this a lot in your tidbits, so maybe you could share with people where they could pick up on some of your work.

Yep. Best thing is just go to footballarchaeology.com it's a substack site, so you can subscribe, you can follow.

If you subscribe, you get an email every time that I publish something new, which hopefully will be tonight, but, yeah, otherwise. Yeah, bookmark it, you know, search for it, whatever, whenever you get the. Get a hankering for old football stuff.

All right, well, Tim, we always have a hankering for old football stuff, so we enjoy you coming here every Tuesday and filling us in on some of what you got going on. And love to talk to you again next Tuesday.

Love to be back. We'll see you soon.