Getting to the finish line for your first book is the most important task for a new author. How do you overcome the obstacles and develop the mindset to get to The End?

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getting to the finish line for your first book

is the most important task for a new author. How do you overcome

the obstacles and develop the mindset to get to the end image

deci gives us some tips for how to finish your first novel. In

this episode of writing pursuits. Welcome to the writing

pursuits podcast where authors like you discuss writing craft,

author, life and book marketing strategies. I'm your host

Kathrese. McKee. I own writing pursuits and write and produce

the weekly newsletter writing pursuits tips for authors. In

addition, I am a speculative fiction author, writing

procedures for authors who drink too much coffee, endure

judgemental looks from their furry writing companions and

struggle for words. If you are a writer seeking encouragement,

information and inspiration This podcast is for you. Let's get to

it. So Emma DESE is a book coach who specializes in helping

beginner authors write their first novel, Emma helps you

improve your craft provides feedback on your written work

and navigates you through the emotional rollercoaster of

finishing a novel. For more hands off help. Emma hosts a

Facebook group and podcast both called Turning readers into

writers. Those links will be in the show notes for today. Hey,

writing pursuits, authors. Welcome back to the podcast. For

those of you who are new, I want to extend a special welcome. My

name is Kathrese McKee. And I'm glad you're here. Please leave a

comment a star rating and follow the show to help others find

writing pursuits. I want to welcome Emma DESE to my program

on writing pursuits. Welcome from Houston to where are you?

I'm in Edinburgh in Scotland. So other side of the Poland, though

we have a little bit of difficulty in translation, we'll

just have to work it out.

To people divided by a common language.

It's so funny, isn't it? It is

it is really wild. And I can always tell when

I am editing someone from Canada that you know because they're

using all the British spelling's in, it was like, oh, and then

there are certain expressions that are very unusual here in

you know, the south of the US and I'm like, where did that

come from? Oh, I see that. Oh, maybe that's just a

colloquialism. You know, I'll have to ask. So what is your

story, Emma?

Oh, my story. My story is, like, a lot of people

always wanted to be a writer, I was an avid reader from a child,

you know, wrote stories, I started with, you know,

children's stories, middle grade, teen, and so on, and so

forth. As I as I grew up, life got in the way, I ended up going

to university, and then moving to London, and, you know, social

life back end. And sort of in my teens and my early 20s, the idea

of sitting in a room by myself. People was less luring than

going out with friends and going to the theater and things. So it

sort of went by the wayside for quite a while. But then I would

always come back to it, you know, they'd be waves. And I

think no, no, this is something I want to do. And I'd go and

sign up for another class and get really excited whilst I was

in the class and start a new project. And then about a week

after that class finished, my energy would kind of and my

enthusiasm would wane as well, as we never quite got to the

finish line with anything. And it was something I always felt

very guilty about, you know, never getting to the finish

line, how to possibly expect to be a writer, but couldn't finish

anything. And then I got to 40. And I was still having the same

discussions with myself. And if there was a sort of switch,

though, that went off, and I just said to myself, Okay, you

either do this or you don't make up your mind. If you want to do

this, you write a first draft from beginning to end. And if

you like writing it, and it was good, fun, fantastic, then you

can go on and start revising. If you get to the end of that first

draft, and you realize it was just a horrific experience, you

hated every moment of it, then you know, and you can put that

dream to bed and move on and stop feeling guilty and start

start something else. So yeah, just the switch in me, I think

I'd hit a brick wall. I was fed up going around in circles, and

decided right let's do it. And so then I did I did write that

first draft that took me a long time. But, but I got there in

the end, and I loved the experience. And I loved the

challenge of it as well. It was a it was a puzzle. I enjoyed

figuring out and putting together and so then I started

revisions and did that for another few years and then

ultimately published my first book, which has, you know, it's

just an amazing feeling to see it there and think Wow, I did

that. I created something out of nothing. And there it is.

That sounds remarkably like my story. I, I,

you know, I went to work and had kids and you know, it was very,

very busy, very, very busy life. And when I became a teacher,

late, I was like reading the books in the library that

because I was a reading teacher that inspired me. And I also

read to my children all the time they were growing up. So like,

there I am, the end with my son, who was last child. And we were

reading John Flanagan, and I go, I love this book. I love these

books, it was a series. And I said, I'd like to write this.

And so I just started with the spiral and started writing. And

Matt's like you, it was like I had put things up, brought him

back out, put things up, run back out. And finally was just

like, I need to just see if I can get to the end. And by the

time I got to the end of the fourth one, I decided, no, I

need to go back to the beginning and do a revision and actually

get serious about it. So

Oh, that's so interesting. So you wrote for

kind of first draft of four novels?

No, it was yeah, it was four novels. And I

realized, I've got a series here, I just have to start

writing in. And so it's much easier to write the second time

because I knew I could, I proved to myself that I could write you

know.

So I think it sounds like you did it in a really

great way. Because then you're you're having your

apprenticeship there. And you're discovering that you enjoy

writing series as well. And so you get to do all those hours of

practice, and then get to go back and revise it again and

work on it and sort of perfect it. So it's probably a good way

of doing it. I admire your patients as well, to kind of,

you know, just because there's a lot of kids

around and there's a busy life. And I could write in the spiral

or the three ring notebook. You know, doctor's appointments, and

soccer games, and whatever else it was, it wasn't hard to do.

And I always had it with me. I was definitely afraid of losing

one because it was handwritten,

but then you still I think I do believe you still

then have to do your apprenticeship. You know, even

if you write your first book and publish it, by the time you get

to your fourth book, you're gonna look back. And as I do

now, and look back and go, Oh, my goodness,

there's some things I wish I could change.

Yes, there are definitely some things I wish I could change.

Absolutely. So what do you think are the biggest roadblocks, the

biggest obstacles to finishing that first book

to do the actual finishing or to reach and I

think about the practical side of it, the actual kind of story

craft, then I think it comes back to character and not

knowing your character very well, not really understanding

why you're writing about them, and why they've come to you and

what it is that they're trying to share with the world. You

know, we might have a superficial idea of who this

character is and what they want and the adventure that they're

going on. And we have a sense of the plot of the story. But we

don't have a deeper understanding of the story of

the story, if you see what I mean. Yes. Yeah, I think that's

certainly 100% where I've gone wrong in the past, is just

having this lovely idea and going with it. And it's all

hunky dory and great. But then you hit a point where you don't

really know why you're writing this now and how it's going to

come together and you get a bit bored with it as well, that can

be another thing because you've not done all of this backstage

work that needs to be done around the character, or you

don't know that you've got to go back and do it. The other thing

as well, when I think about the majority of the craft books out

there, they do talk fairly superficially about got your

what does your character want? What does your character need?

What is their flow? And those things are important. I'm not

saying that they're not, but they don't the books. And what

we learned doesn't really kind of go into that in much depth.

So we're not really understanding what was happening

in our character's life before the stories happened, what has

brought them to this point where the story starts, and why does

it start on that day? Because that's going to be a big key

clue as well as as to why the story is important. Why does it

have to start on this day at this moment? In this place?

Perfect. Yes, yeah. Only by going back and really

understanding what's led the life experiences of this

character up until this point, that we we know what that flow

is, we know what they need. We know what they want to do that

work at the beginning. Now, I think that if you're lucky, and

your brain is wired that way so that you have the ability to do

this all up front, before you even start writing, and you

figure it all out, and it's great, and you know where you're

going, I would suggest,

that'd be nice.

But I think for most of us, particularly if you're

writing your first novel, this is something that you need to

come back to do in revision. I think often we need to get to

know the story a little bit, get a more of a feel for ourselves

and get to know the characters a little bit on this more

superficial level, before we can then go back and develop their

their history and their experiences and why they are the

way they are. So that's, that's one of the things I want to sort

of craft level, I think that's one of the things that stops

people from from finishing,

I did have that same exact experience, where I

created a character who she was the main character. And then I

found out that, oh, she was just not that likable. And then I had

to create a way for the reader to connect with her at least the

beginning, because she was, she had a little bit of a hard

shell. And she was supposed to be that way. But it made her

completely, like, why would I want to read about this person?

You know? And I, you went

back and did that kind of sort of history, work on

your character, did it open up some things and you understood

her maps salutely

What I am so thankful I did this one thing, I

did a, an actual interview with my character. I didn't write it

down, I I put down the pen and paper. And I went completely

recorded. I recorded an interview with her. So I asked

her all these questions. And I mean, that was like a switch in

my brain. I don't know what it is about putting down and, and

just becoming the character. Then she told me all this stuff.

And I was like, oh, oh, I understood her so much better.

And then on the revision, I was able to make her much better and

communicate, not the backstory. But to slip things in to kind of

give the reader connection

and context. Yeah, why they're doing what they're

doing. Yeah, that's a wonderful, I've never done it that way to

actually record the interview. Might feel, did it feel a bit

schizophrenic? Because you know,

what was funny is, my creative brain was like,

Oh, I've got to come up with an answer for that. And what would,

what would she say? I wish she would tell me that, you know,

and yeah, so yes, a little bit of a mind bender, but new work,

and it was so helpful. Yeah, I'm sure people can do that on a

piece of paper as well. It just seemed like I needed to put it

away and do something completely different. To trigger a

different part of my brain. So yeah, I think you're right

about, you don't know your character well enough,

especially on that first book. And as you write more, you

realize, oh, I've got to know that, you know, your second and

third and fourth book, you know, that you need to know those

things.

Yes. So So do you mean like, Oh, I see. So you as

the creator by the third and fourth, but you needed to know

that stuff that was there. In the first one? Yeah.

Well, you know, I'm even talking about staying

alone. When you go with a new character, you know, that you

need to know if that experience has helped you. That's what I

was saying. Yeah,

yes. Even if you're not necessarily going to put

that on the page, you as the creator, you need to know the

backstory, you need to know, once this behind it, the it

reminds me when I used to act, you know, we'd be to go off and

do your research and development, you know, you go

and kind of do all the work behind behind the scenes about

it about this character. And then I remember one director

kind of saying to us, okay, so now you've got that now you

throw it all the way. You just throw it all the way, with the

idea being that no, this is just embodied in us, we do, okay, we

know it in our body and in our memory, from the work that we've

done around our character, we're not going to bring that on stage

and demonstrate it in any physical way or say in our

dialogue, but just knowing that that will come out in the way

that we move on stage or the way that we say something. And I

think that's the same in our fiction, how our characters move

and the things that they say, come out of us having done that

research into their past and who they are. And then fascinating,

hmm. And I think then that feeds into the plot, you know, that,

that feeds into the decisions that the character will make,

which then feeds into the plot. And so that can help get us

unstuck.

So you've read the script.

Yes, you read the script, and so say, so one that

comes to mind would be we were doing what was it know The

Importance of Being Earnest? Okay, by no courage, and so we

took a trip to the Ritz in London and we had a tour, just

getting into what it would be like to be in there. period, and

come from money and be of that time. And so that that was a

really fun way of doing as well. And you know, you'd watch the

movies, you'd read about that, that kind of period of time. But

then, but then you have to embody this one individual

who's, you know, flesh and blood like everybody else. But we know

that we've experienced this in the background. And so almost

like muscle memory, I suppose it would then translate into the

performance. I would

think that acting experience would help you

so much with characterization in your writing.

I think it does. Yes, I think some I think it

helps me the dialogue. Yes, as well. And just a sense of maybe

a sense of pacing, as well, as you're working through three

acts. And then it can be it can be helpful there. But

definitely, it taught me a lot about putting yourself in the

shoes of another individual who's not real. bringing them to

life. Yeah.

Fascinating. So what other things do you think

hold beginner writers back from finishing a book,

the other thing that I've noticed is the biggest

thing, it's got nothing to do with craft at all, but it's just

what's going on inside, inside the individual inside the

person. So they are the biggest. And you know, that phrase get

out of your own way. There's a lot of fear around finishing

fear that the most obvious one being fear that it's not going

to be good enough. And then the fear of this awesome bizarrely,

for an I've never experienced this one. This, you know, the

fear of success, like what happens if this is really good?

What happens if people start reading it? And people start

reviewing it? Think we often have a fear of readers? Don't we

move desperate? Absolutely.

We're afraid of those people. They're gonna read

our book and judge us.

Yes, absolutely. So that fear of it being out in the

world and letting go of it. And I still hear people talk about

their books, you know, as their babies. Because many of them,

the people I work with, they've been writing the same book for

1015 20 years. So they are, you know, very emotionally attached

to this story. And so this fear of that someone else will read

it and judge it, that fear of just letting go of something

that has been part of their life for so long. That can be very

scary as well. And then we should actually, I was talking

to a student the other week, and he's coming towards the end of

his, the first draft of his story. And this is a story that

he's been wanting to write for a long, long, long, long time. And

you are saying that, you know, I'm, I'm a bit scared, I've been

avoiding writing the end, because there's this, perhaps a

slight feeling of anticlimax around it, because he's been

striving towards it for so long. And then oh, okay, now it's

done. And then you've got to go back and revise it and continue

working on it, that romantic idea that you type, the end,

pull the paper out of the typewriter and off it goes to

the publisher, actually, there's a lot of work still to do. Some

time, there's a little bit of a of that as well.

So what do you advise somebody who is so

attached to their work, that they're kind of afraid to reach

that point, where it's time to let it go,

I would recommend just taking a little bit of time

away from it, then that this is and kind of bracing yourself

doing a little bit of self talk to that. Okay, this is going to

be a farewell that you could even do a little kind of, I

don't want to say the word ceremony around it. But you

know, just having a celebration that you've, you've got to this

point, acknowledging it as well. Another student of mine, just,

she just finished her first draft. And she got to the end,

and we're like, wow, you know, we took a moment just to

acknowledge the achievement that she'd made because, you know,

she's in what, at the top 5% of people, right, she's finished

it. So, you know, this was a moment for her to kind of

acknowledge and take a moment to realize, okay, now I get to move

into the next step of this, I get to take a step further

towards this goal, this dream that I've held for so, so long,

and that will come slower for for some people and quicker for

others, but just that giving yourself a bit of space to start

disconnecting from it and start to see this now. Right. An asset

is more of a product of more as a yeah to a product or an asset

that is going to go out into the world and I'm not just yet we're

still got work to do. But I think if you can begin that

process, give yourself time to lead into that it will make the

partying a little less painful when it comes,

I think the letting things cool or rest is a

really great idea, especially for that first time, you need to

have a little space between you, and especially the first draft,

you just need to kind of so in that space, maybe it would be

wise, or maybe for some people, it would be okay to think about,

well, what is going to come after that? What am I going to

write next. So you kind of give yourself something to look

forward to, after you're done shipping the product, and then

go back and you've you've got the time and space, then to look

at your fresh your first draft, especially with fresh eyes, you

know, because you know, you know how much is going to change.

You know, in your mind, you might surprise

yourself and find that by the, by the time you've done 13

rounds of revisions, you are over this book, you'd never see

it again, you're just fed up with it.

Writing pursuits is run by Kathrese. McKee, who

has been trusted by fiction authors since 2014, to take

their writing to a new level of excellence. cutleries is a three

story methods certified editor who specializes in story

diagnostics, coaching, and line editing to help you prepare your

story for the journey ahead. For more information, go to writing

pursuits.com. The link is in the show notes. And now, back to the

podcast. What are some techniques you recommend to help

people break through and get past themselves and the writing

itself even to get to the end, and then they can go back, you

know, before they can go back and do their revisions. And so

if you find that you're getting stuck, do go back

and do those character histories and go and look back at them.

And that will open up things for you definitely. But on a

practical, sort of step by step, it's just remembering to take

things one moment at a time to run we're talking about just

getting to the end of that first draft. So acknowledging is going

to be messy, there's gonna be a lot of work to do, no matter how

much planning you've done ahead of time, because as you and I

both know, things change as you write the book. So take the

pressure off this being perfect, it's never going to be like one

of the books you've got on your shelf that's been published and

just take a little by little and scene by scene, I would even go

down to say, you know, scene by scene. So if you have the two or

three scenes in a Chapter, just break that right down to the

scene level and what needs to happen in this one scene,

thinking about how that's going to just push the storyline

forward, or even just the plotline forward for now,

hopefully push the plot forward. And so each scene needs to serve

a function. And as long as you know why you're including that

scene, and what the if we're thinking about, you know, three

story method, for example, which I know, you're a big fan of

what's the consequence of that scene. So understanding that

cause and effect trajectory, when you're in those sticky

moments getting say that it's that last third of the book.

Even if you can't yet figure out how you're going to pull all

those strands together, just keep moving scene by scene and

have something have a decision made at the end of each scene so

that you know how you're going to move on to the next one. I

think that's a really great way, particularly in that first

draft, and you haven't planned out your scenes ahead of time.

If as long as your character, whichever character is in the

scene doesn't need to be your protagonist, but their point of

view character in that scene, as long as they make a decision

about something, either to do something or to say something to

somebody, then that gives you your impetus for the next scene.

Right. And by focusing on that next scene, that gives you the

impetus to move on to the next one. And so kind of organically

almost it starts to happen as a story. You know, when you hear

writers kind of say, you know, the story almost wrote itself,

it was so amazing. I felt like I was just dictating this. I think

that's what they're referring to, that they are taking it

scene by scene and as long as they know that their character

is making a decision about something at the end, that

automatically leads on to the next scene. And and then there

is that feeling of it just feels easier, I think than takes the

pressure off.

I think as long as you're willing to let your if

you stopped doing the red light green light thing, where oh,

that won't work. Oh, that won't work. Oh, that won't work. Just

Just give yourself the green light to just write whatever, be

as messy and as illogical as you need to be just to get to the

next scene. Just do it and then you can come back and go oh, I'd

see a way to fix that, oh, that really actually, that works

really well, or that doesn't work. And I need to think of

something else. But I know I need to get to this place. So

you rewrite a scene. But at least you got there. And even

just putting in like the skeleton of a scene, think

of Steph Greene who talks about her skeleton method. She just

has the very, very basics of what she wants to happen in a

scene. But it allows her to keep moving forward, keep moving

forward to the end of that very first, very messy draft, or in

that she can come back with it. I think I've like, of my own

experiences. Normally, I'm a very linear writer. So I started

the beginning. And I work my way through to the end. But I

remember, I think it was my second book, I think it was, I

was flowing along fine to the to the halfway point. And then I

got really stuck to know what was going to come next. But I

knew how I wanted the book to end. So I just skipped to the

end. And then I wrote the chapters back to the middle and

then joined them in the middle. No idea why that worked for that

book. But that's how I got around it. And that's how I

managed to get that flow. To come back into my writing. I

think that's something else actually just you know, just to

remember that you don't have to write the first scene, then the

next then the next image people. Yeah, because like some people

like to write in a sort of patchwork form, or they do a bit

here in a bit there as the scene comes to them, trusting that

there is method in it, and it will all pull together. At the

end. I forget who

said this, too. She said she's writing if she

realizes that she needs just, for instance, an evil twin, but

the evil twin hasn't been there since the beginning. I really

wish I could remember who it was said it, then they'll just start

writing the evil twin, they'll kind of put a bracket Hey, this

is where I started with it. I've got to go back. And now I've got

to you know, but they don't stop and go back. They just go

forward with what they need. From there.

Point Yes, I think a lot of writers Yeah, would be

tempted to not think, Oh, my goodness, I've got to go back to

the beginning. Again, so you already

know, you're gonna have to go back to the

beginning and start all over again, just keep going. But she

would just say just put it in a bracket or something and make a

note, and know that you're going to have to fix that. And that's

okay. That's you just write your list of fixes that you're going

to make. Yeah.

And it's harder, I think, to when you're writing

your first book, particularly, it's harder to kind of trust

that you will be able to come back and do that. Because you've

not yet got that evidence in your own brain. That Oh, I've

been here before, I've had this challenge before. And I got over

it last time I fixed it last time. So I know that I can do

the same again this time. So there's a little bit of that,

that comes I think with just with the practice and going

through the apprenticeship that we've talked about. And here's

the sad and I think it's Nina Amir, she's, you know, you've

got to practice finishing. That's just as important if not

more important than practicing starting a book, where you've

got a great finishing books,

I agree, getting to the end of a first draft is

part of that. Absolutely part of that. And then you go through

the revision, and you get to the end again. And even if you have

to go back again, you still you've managed to get to the

end. Sometimes I counsel people to just start a very short

story, so they can get to the end, you know, short story. So

that you've got you've got that that experience of landing the

story, and then make it longer and hit the end again. But I

agree with you, I think you need to practice getting to the end.

What other tricks do you have up your sleeve?

So one of the tools that I have been using recently,

and again, I use this in revision, and but you could use

it, it's encouraged that you use it when you're first drafting,

but it's not what I like and this actually comes from Jenny

Nash. So this is her insight outline. And she she encourages

us to have these two bullet points for each scene one is

their what happens you know, the plots what happens on the plots

and then the other one is what she calls the point and the

purpose of that is to outline for yourself okay, what is the

emotional driver in this scene? What is the story elements of

the scene as opposed to the plot elements? And this is a great

way for you to be able to recognize the cause and effect

again, it comes to that so you're understanding okay, this

happened in Scene A, which leads on to this happening and Scene B

which leads on to this happening and scene C. But if they felt

like this A Scene A, and then this happened, how are they

going to feel in Scene B, and then how they're going to feel

in scene C. And all the time, it's taking them forwards to

that, that arc towards that arc that they're going to reach by

the end of, of the novel, bearing in mind, there'll be

those steps backwards steps forwards as they struggle with

what it is that they're they're trying to overcome. But I've

certainly found this I'm a big proponent of it now of using

this inside outline.

It's kind of like an external story in the

internal story.

Exactly, yes. And how they mirror one another,

right?

affect one another? Yeah, that's actually

that's actually a really great way. And almost certainly you

would hit three story thing where you had the conflict, the

choice of the consequence? Almost certainly, just having

those two points. Because what's happening externally? What does

it mean internally? I really liked that.

Yeah, it's really it's really good. It's, it is

tough, I'm not going to deny it. It's a really, because you're,

especially for the the point bits of the emotional journey,

the internal journey, to having to articulate that to yourself

in a few lines, is, is challenging, but it's the reason

it's so worth it. Because then when you come to either write

the scene or revise the scene, it's right there, you know

exactly what you're trying to say you've done that hard work.

And a number of times when I've sat down to start writing a new

scene, or to revise a scene enough that oh, gosh, right.

Look at what happens in this again, and why am I telling it?

And then I go to my insight outline. And it's right there, I

don't have to think about it. I just get to write the scene. So

good.

So when you do coaching, kind of describe your

process,

so yeah, so thanks for asking, yeah, I work with

students one on one, I really like the intimate relationship

that you get to build with. And I work with students for 12

months. Yeah, and it can seem quite daunting, I think a lot of

people have that response. But I, I know for myself that that's

at least as long as it takes to write a first draft, we need

that time or even longer to really finish that draft.

Because there are times when life gets in the way. And

there's just, you know, if you've got a job, and you've got

kids, and you know, all the things that life brings, it does

get in the way from time to time, and you need a bit of a

mother. There's also those times when you're just struggling with

the words themselves, and you've lost that flow for a bit. And it

can take a week or two to find it again. So we need that. So I

do work on a lot of the character stuff beforehand, we

look at okay, why are you telling the story now. So the

story behind the story, what's led your character up to this

point? To the point that this is where you're going to start?

This is why you're starting page one where it's starting. And

when we understand that, then that really helps to kind of

project the story forward and understand what it is that

they're trying to achieve by the end of this novel. What is what

is the floor we talked, you know, there's all that talk

about the floor? So what is going on inside of them? How do

they see the world? And why is that? In? What way? Is that not

serving them? Right? What do they need to change about that?

And so there's a lot of discussion around that as well.

And then what I love to write, then I get to see all the words

I get to see the words on the page as they write the scenes or

revising scenes, if they've come to me with an existing first

draft. And we chat about that we brainstorm things, we talk about

what's going on for the character, does their motivation

fit with the action that they're taking? Has someone kind of

tried to squeeze something in? Because they liked the idea

rather than it actually fitting the story that they're telling,

right? And that happens a bit. Especially with

first time authors. I want to say this, and I'm going to fit

it in no matter what you weren't. You weren't as the

writing their novel. I guess y'all have discussions, the

beginning. And depending on where they're starting from,

whether they're just starting from a blank page, or starting

with something that they've already worked on. Do they

usually come to you with a full manuscript or do they usually

come with you with an idea

is usually because I work with first time novelist

exclusively. And I'm seen at the last resort for them because

they don't yet understand, you know, just the value of working

with somebody, this misconception that you've got to

be able to do it yourself. And so often they are maybe halfway

through three quarters of the way through and they've hit a

brick wall and they don't know Oh, no, they're doing something

wrong. They don't know what it is, you know, they believe in

the story. This is the one that's that, you know, has stuck

with them. This is the one that they feel this is my. Yeah,

right. So now they've come to me and they're like, Okay, I've got

this fire. Now I'm stuck. What do I do next? And often Yeah,

it's about going back to that character, and figuring them out

in better detail. And as we're doing that, you know, I do

encourage the writer to keep riding forward, and so that they

get to the end of that, and then we get to go back to the

beginning and really, really start shaping stuff.

Sounds like a book therapy almost. Right?

There's funny, you know, there if I thought that

that was gonna be that'd be my tagline the book. That's great.

Okay. It's funny you say that, though, because there is a

degree of therapy that goes on in the coaching space. And I

don't know if you have this with your editing as well. But

definitely, the reason this is the story that stuck with that

writer is because it's touched them in some way. Right? It's,

there's a personal connection. They don't realize it at the

time, most of the time. Yeah, right. And it's only when you

start digging down that we understand, because this

happened to you, and this has affected you. And you remember

this, and this is where this idea the seed has ultimately

come from, why it's so appealing. And so it can get

quite emotional from time to time. Especially if it's, you

know, wounds from childhood or something, relationships with

parents. And so yes, and just having that realization that Oh,

my God, I didn't know I was writing about my father or my

sister, or there is a degree of therapy that's involved in

people that are able to kind of let go of things, now that

they've written about it,

right, kind of, I feel a great responsibility to

my clients to, you know, figure out why this is so important to

them, and how they can communicate it through their

story without necessarily being about them. Because most of the

time, I'm not a memoir, author. I'll leave that up to Valerie.

It's on but, but I feel like a lot of things are autobiography

full auto

by graphical, yeah, thank you.

Graphical, there we go, Oh, my goodness, we're

just escaped me. I think that there is a lot of weight.

Obviously, you're tied up in your book. And you're right,

there is a compelling reason that you're writing it. Usually

that first time unless you're doing it purely for, can I make

this a commercial success? You know, that's there's it too, but

most of the time, the first time author is, is actually trying to

get something off their heart. Yeah, and it's a great way to

connect to other people who have similar things on their hearts.

So it's a good reason to write a book, I think you're gonna find

somebody.

Because even when it's fiction, it's incredibly

therapeutic.

So do you find that you're a kind of an

accountability partner, as well?

Yes. 100%. So, at the end of each call together,

then we set a date for the next time, and in for a date for them

to send me their next pages. Oh, cool, huh. And people can give

me up to 7000 words each month that I go through and make

inline comments on, as well, as you know, just questions and

questions and comments around. So it's very in depth, it's very

high touch, you know, it's very, very personalized. And each

session is not like the last one, each one is different. And,

you know, I might, both of us might come to a call thinking or

we're just going to be talking about the words on the page

today. But then you just don't know what is going to come out

or whatever is going on in the writers Mind and Life at that

time, and what we've been thinking about, and what they've

been writing. And so it's very, very different each time. And

it's, it's wonderful when you see in your student in that

writer, just an aha moment that they have either about

themselves or about the book or how it's connected. And you see

that excitement and they can't wait to get back and start

writing again.

So do record the sessions. I do yet

we record the sessions and I send a send each

writer the recording so they've got it for as long as they need

it to come back and because often, you know, you might be

the best note taker in the world, but a lot can get lost in

the in the moment, you know, chatting away and maybe things

get we're both talking and it's very exciting. So it's, it's

good to have that video to come back to and just replay certain

sections just to remind yourself

taking notes you kind of miss stuff, you know.

Yeah.

And often when I asked like an author a question

About why did the character do this? Or why are they feeling

that? Or how are they feeling in that moment, and then they can

verbalize it really, really easily. But they can't put it on

the page as easily. So then it's great. Okay, we'll come back to

this minute. And that's exactly what you want to put on the

page.

Fantastic. That's how we're reaching kind

of the end of our time here. I would like to make sure people

know where to find you, and how to contact you and all that

stuff. And I mean, I met you through your summit at the

beginning of the year. Are you planning to do that again?

Yes, actually, just today, I was, I was having my

meeting with my VA, and we've just discussed how we're going

to start outreaching and start putting that together. So that

will all being well will be January in 2023 account 23

foreheads like yeah, no, I

love fantastic.

Yeah. interview series are great fun.

Okay. And what do you call that?

Called be a best seller. This one is going to be

I haven't got my tagline yet. I need to come up with that.

Right. That's what this meeting is for. Right?

That's, that's all

that we're working on that. But actually, as of

this week, I do have part of a promotion actually, this week.

You know, if you're just needing a bag with the back to school

bundle for writers, that's crazy, you're looking for a

little bit of, you know, just motivation to get back into the

swing of things after the summer holidays, then I'm part of this

promotion, where you can pick up lots of freebies, different

ways. So it's, you can get that at Emma desi.com. Forward slash

21 days. Okay. And right, yes, 21 days, and that will take you

through to this landing page where you can have a look and

see, see what's on offer and pick and choose whatever that

you would like to get. And it's not just me, there's lots of

authors contributing as well. So there's guaranteed to be

something

so wait two to one days? To one Yes. To one

days. Okay. And you're Emma DESE, D, H, E, si. That's all

one string.com. Okay, yeah, just want to make that clear. And

they can also find your coaching there isn't a.com

yet, there's details about that. And but probably, if

you're interested in that, then the easiest thing to do is just

drop me an email at Emma Emma daddy.com. It's a highly

personalized service. And as such, it's not a good fit for

everybody. So I do like to have a call with people just to check

where they're at in their writing and whether it would be

a good fit because it's fit.

Right. Right. That's right. That's right.

Well, I think it's a fantastic service that you're providing, I

had the benefit of someone in my life, that we were both trying

to finish a book she had or actually already published, too.

And so she was my mentor. And I was responsible for turning over

I think it was 2500 words a week that really put the you know,

that really put the screws on me to get it done. And sure, I had

to revise it and everything. But to get that input every week,

and to have that accountability every week, was very

instrumental in getting me to the end of my first book. So I

had somebody in my life, but a lot of writers are just they

don't know where to go. And I think that your service is

obviously a highly valuable one. And I hope that people will

contact you and kind of let you help them get over that through

those obstacles and break through to their first book.

Absolutely. There's no, we don't have to do it

alone. That's the thing. I have a coach, I work with a coach,

and I wouldn't be without her. It's just just such a big help

to have someone on your team.

Right. Right. Well, fantastic. Well, thank

you, Emma, for joining me today

for asking me it's been lovely chatting with you.

It's been

great. Have a great day. I will do and you.

Okay, thank you. That's all I have for you today. Until next

time, keep writing. Thank you for joining us today. If you

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