Shownotes
In this episode, Matthew Nagler and I discuss a bunch of things, after intending to focus on cognitive flexibility.
That's pretty meta...
We meander through various behavioral science "greatest hits," including the endowment effect, loss aversion, and altruism.
We explore how these phenomena affect human behavior and social dynamics, specifically by looking at a "prisoners' dilemma" type game show, and how one person's "Golden Ball" strategy shocked a nation.
Then we roll up our metaphorical sleeves and get serious about cognitive flexibility.
We explore the role it plays in personal identity, career changes, and societal issues like gender fluidity.
We also tackle thorny ethical questions of how to balance personal and societal concerns, and how to enhance human welfare for all in a world where my ability to change can seem like a direct threat to you.
00:00 Introduction and Welcome
01:04 Exploring the Endowment Effect
04:15 Loss Aversion and Decision Making
18:49 Cognitive Flexibility and Personal Growth
38:58 Entering the Business World
39:36 Challenges in the Private Sector
41:18 Reflections on Meaningful Work
43:28 The Value of Teaching
49:14 Cognitive Flexibility and Social Impact
53:52 Balancing Personal and Social Responsibilities
01:00:17 Game Shows and Human Nature
Links
Zen and Economics — a Substack by Matthew Nagler
Golden Balls - split or steal on YouTube
The Will of the Many, by James Islington
Catalog of Terry Pratchett's DiscWorld series
Affari Toui - Italian version of Deal or No Deal
Moral Ambition, by Rutger Bregman
Transcripts
Without further ado.
All right, Matthew Nagler, welcome back to the Plant Yourself Podcast.
Thank you, Howie. It's good.
t's, let's, we're gonna talk [: e we just sort of, you know, [: everybody's always thinking [: [: for this. And so that [: , um, uh, studies, um, that, [:okay. I was gonna say that, that that probably explains
[:low rates of infidelity in couples.
Interesting. Yes. Huh. Um, [: re less well endowed uhoh. I [: dn't probably do that on the [:Speaking about well and doubt.
anything to do with, um, the [:The handlebar leans about 15 degrees over to the right, which I, I feel like a, like a skilled
Hmm.
that I bought is like worth [:Ah,
wondering if there's any, like, as I think about.
right.
value, I
Well, it's just,
[: lustrates in particular one. [: t, imagine this, imagine you [: st people would. And that's, [: would be, um, I'd be such a [: n ultimate tournament, there [: or No Deal, um, which I had [:I love that
I had.
I talked to my, my behavioral economic students about that. I love that, that show.
w much I actually understood [: or she kept it? I, I'm, I'm, [:she accepted the deal of 50 50,000. Instead
see.
of either box. Right,
Right. And because she, she [:Yeah. And I thought
Yeah. [: t we call a reference point. [: at's what creates the mental [: ity, who was, who was there, [: u know, actually, I'm trying [: have, um, that would've made [:You know? Be bold,
Hmm.
right? [: was fun to watch no deal or [:uhhuh.
inning, no idea what's going [:Uh,
ike, how much, how much does [:right.
. [:Yeah.
[:And that's the average. They should give you.
ell, what, what, what you're [: nal person when making these [: erybody's net worth, I think [: on is in that moment. So if, [: You know, what does she [: t an article you wrote about [:Because now it's more exciting.
right. That, oh, that's interesting. They do on the Italian show. I don't remember anything like that on the American show.
I don't [:It is not the same host.
had a hell of a half an hour.
e host, is it? 'cause in the [:yeah. No, this was a,
Huh.
guy.
Oh, okay. So they [: has, he has this decision of [: I, I [:Okay.
e was gone. And I decided in [:Okay.
ainst that kind of theft and [:Yeah.
pretty [:Yeah.
books, the Disc World Books,
No.
[:But he, but in his world, he has, they have guilds and one of them is the Guild, the Thieves Guild. And the idea is if
Uh
the Thieves Guild, then the [:oh. Okay.
it's, it's just a lot safer. And, you know, and if anyone is
Yeah.
without a Thieves Guild
That's an insurance [: o it's, it's kind of what it [:Uh, no, I de I definitely recommend the DISC World series. It's, it's, it's, it's, um,
[:you like,
That's been around for decades, isn't it?
in the eighties and he, he died I
Huh?
or: Uhhuh.[:we're not, we're.
he Will of the many, um, by, [: It's the [:So it's really, it's really pretty fantastic.
where we, where they played? [:I don't think so. Is this was this senior year
thought it might've been
because senior,
I [: nse of somebody else did it. [: w, it was, it was just a, it [: Yes, I remember that. That's [: ike, oh, those people, like, [:Uhhuh. Yeah.
So,
back on that, I didn't, um, [:I was like, no, the real world is fair, but this is kind of a cool game.
All right. Well, let's, [: en thinking a lot about this [: know, thinking that the way [: at are exogenous to your own [: urse of my life that really, [: that it's, it's remarkable. [: ic career. And if you didn't [: hing that kind of taught me, [: people with differing levels [: the conveyor belt. I. Like, [:Right,
then, you know, it's like, [: worked in the private sector [:right.
didn't know anyone who was like, open about it. Like everyone, you know, teachers or lawyer, you know, like,
[: ome moneymaking organization [:Who do you have to know? Like what, what kind of secret club do you have to be in? Uh, in order.
resting that you said Howie. [: think the vast, it seems to [: Um, [: And so, um, [: rave. I could never do that. [:Yeah,
And
like that, you know, sort of [: preneurs and they, whatever, [:Right?
can we play here? What's, what's fun?
Yeah.
so I think, yeah.
It sounds like it was easier [: I did that for a few years. [: marketing for several years. [:And then, and then figuring out a way to do that.
, I also, I, I would say from:That's a spirit.
interesting mix of cognitive [:Yeah.
deal. And other things, uh, [: ght, that, that what appears [: dea that wisdom is realizing [: hoice can be oppressive. And [: mean, my best days are when [: at's what I loved about the, [:Yeah. But here.
know.[: this from, but, but I think, [: s sort of, you know, sort of [:But do, do you get the same satisfaction in both scenarios?
nd people were paying me and [: ah, well that relates to the [: t talking about optionality, [: es. I think that identity is [: dis dissociate it from, from [: cognitive flexibility could [:Yeah, exactly. Right.
definition, but it's [: ll in the par, you know, the [: But for like a [: Yeah. Well, I see sort of [: [: [:right.
Like, but it,
So [: ity tend to land on the more [: I don't know if I would say, [: t involves a certain, almost [: , if I think back, you know, [: as a monster, right? I mean, [: ll people have this ability, [: Mm. And [:Yes.
know, I, I [: Yeah, [: he actually went to work for [: a company car and make some [: saying, well, you know, uh, [: Hmm. Uh, so [: earned in the business world [:I.
biggest example of this, the [: that turned me off to it was [: now put together a business [: and they would say, no, fix [: And yeah. And even [: So I'm, I'm [:Uh
it, or
oh.
argues, um, that, you know, [:And he says, like, we, we know what the important jobs are because we, they told us during the pandemic. Like, you know,
[:people who make
Yeah.
right. And the, and the rest [: ng is a waste of time. Yeah. [:Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, right.
So,
A hundred percent.
you know, come [: er about people who do those [: k about there. I mean, I've, [: e spending my days like, you [: ing things that, 'cause I, I [: Now we're both [:Thank you. How.
I mean, I also believe that. [: woman who did almost nothing [:Yeah. Uh,
you [:yeah.
want to have kind of faith that the, the
Yeah.
the right position to be in.[: , you're gonna go, you know, [: Right? And then maybe I'd be [: , you know, miserable person [: know, I have to believe that [: [: great things actually about [: rs and, and, um, you can see [: sfaction out of it, but it's [: the cognitive flexibility to [: Yeah. [: [:Um,
two para, you know, the two paralegals, one of
oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
the
Right.
ity and divorce and, and all [:Yeah.
because we all hate each other. And you took it to this abstract level in which there's,
Right.
[: ink about flexibility in the [: exibility doesn't occur in a [: s with ai. Now, it no longer [: onna do affect other people. [:And then they, they leave the marriage that, that affects the other person who may not have had felt similarly.
or
Um, and, and,
where [:yeah.
maga and it's
Yeah. Right.
[:Yes.
in the, in the late eighties.
Yes. [: e says, you know, the family [: It becomes much more, uh, [: urselves, there can be these [: . I'm, I'm, I'm Wronging the [: o is imposing a cost on you, [: ve is a problem of mismatch. [: , are more gender fluid, and [: o, to, to recognize who they [: You know, if, [: not necessarily easy, but I [: , so that what it does is it [: like how to operationalize? [: Yeah, I mean, it, it's, [: develop the bilateral model, [: hink if we recognize what we [: yments one way or the other. [: me of that wealth with, with [: [:For me,
Hmm.
t back around to the deal or [:Yeah,
as opposed to [: t least I've never seen this [:Let's just agree to split everything 50 50,
So that is so,
right?
is so funny [:Yeah.
reats. So, you know, it felt [:Uh,
and I was thinking like, you [: [:prisoner's dilemma game and an economists and behavioral economists are constantly coming up with stuff where, you know, oh, we,
den Balls, I think. Was that [:yeah.
you, you know, you both were [: they completely changed the [:Ball. I, I
two,
heard of that.
one, yeah, I think it's called golden balls. Yeah.
Uh, just, yeah. This, this idea
I'd have to go.[: rother or all those that are [: I think there's, at least in [: s, it's just you wanna watch [: in people rather than, than, [:Hmm.
ust been avoiding the entire [: hat are just like, you know, [:I don't like that narrative.
I, I, I wanna create a game show. I'm really excited now, so
[:I'm serious. I, I think, you know, I think me, like media tells us who we are,
[:we're so
yeah. I,
it's so zero sum. And what I love about, you know,
yeah.
exploration of [:Mm-hmm.
get to is the third story, right?
There's, there's, I'm, you know, I'm right
Yes,
nd you go, you're right, and [:yes,
that takes the sting out of [:Right,
Um,
right.[:and
Yeah.
think
And part of And go.
d this way. I think, I think [: e in that scenario of coming [: nd looking and saying, okay, [: ost, there's this. You know, [: s, I think that's what I was [:Yes.
specific, I think is a great example because we have the spirit of the game rule
Yes.
into the, [:You know, you take responsibility for your own play. You
Yeah.
the experience for everyone. [: an, it's interesting sort of [: know, because you, you know, [: look at that and say, I have [: 's a paradox, you know, the, [: I, I'll show like [: ght. But all you really need [:that's so true.
Yeah.
All right. All,
Isn't that,
yeah. What? What's [: have to be so damn big, you [:Yeah, and I
Yeah.
kes of the stakes of losing, [:Yes.
fear. Like, I'll, you know, I'll have nothing I, I won't survive, or life will be intolerable, or I won't be able to
[: , there is no, uh, you know, [: d new games. Do you remember [: oks. I became a, you know, a [:Uhhuh.
games because,
hing was, I think I remember [: It was the one where [:know. That's, that's that sounds, uh,
sound a little dystopian. It [:I'm going to the,
when people were getting.
because I don't remember it. [: Yeah. Yeah. So, um, I [:goes
yeah.
show notes. I'm, I'm sad to say some people just listened.
[:Right on.
So whatever that [:Okay.
or whatever hap it happens to mean to me that particular month,
and the occasional dose of Billy Joel.
ccasional dose of Billy Joe, [:good. All right, Matt. Always a pleasure.
thank you so much for having me on Howie. I really enjoyed it.
get a new one [: Agreed. All right. Thanks [: N-A-G-L-E-R. He's been on a [: is you may have noticed that [: des in the can, which I will [: e and more excited about new [: And my daughter, Al Yvonne [: k around with, uh, this, uh, [: out, I started feeling sick [: e, but the activity has been [: hopefully, um. You know, by, [: