Divorce grief, people-pleasing, trauma, healing after divorce, and finding your voice—Chel Cartmill shares how to move through loss and rebuild.

What if divorce isn't just the end of a marriage—but the death of an entire life, identity, and future you thought you were going to have?

In this powerful episode of Doing Divorce Different, Lesa sits down with Chel Cartmill, a divorce coach, trauma coach, grief coach, wellness coach, and breathwork facilitator, to talk about the emotional side of divorce, healing from trauma, people-pleasing, and learning to finally use your voice.

Chel shares her deeply personal story of divorce, betrayal, people-pleasing, calling for help, and the shocking experience that followed. Her story ultimately became the foundation for her work helping others navigate divorce, co-parenting, grief, major life transitions, and the process of becoming more fully themselves.

Together, Lesa and Chel explore divorce grief and why divorce can feel so much like a death. You aren't only grieving a relationship—you may also be grieving the life you thought you would have, your identity within the relationship, family expectations, and the future you imagined.

They also dive into the surprising connection between people-pleasing and self-abandonment, including why people-pleasing can actually keep you focused on how others perceive you rather than allowing you to live from your own truth.

Chel explains how understanding your core values can help you make better decisions, recognize what you're saying yes and no to, and stop looking outside yourself to fulfill needs like love, connection, acceptance, and belonging.

If you're navigating divorce, betrayal, grief, people-pleasing, or a major life transition—or you're simply wondering, "Who am I and what do I actually want?"—this conversation offers practical insight, compassion, and hope.

In this episode, you'll learn how to understand divorce grief, move through difficult emotions without judging them, identify your core values, find your voice, and begin creating a life that actually aligns with who you are.

Listen, save, and share this episode with someone who may need the reminder that they are not alone—and that difficult transitions can become opportunities for healing, growth, and transformation.

Timestamps:

(00:00) Introduction to Chel Cartmill and her book Spider On My Neck

(XX) Chel's early desire to help people and her journey into coaching

(XX) Marriage, people-pleasing, conflict avoidance, and searching for answers

(XX) Chel's divorce story, calling for help, and the experience that changed everything

(XX) Finding your voice and learning to prioritize yourself

(XX) Turning trauma into a mission to help others

(XX) Why difficult life transitions can become opportunities for growth

(XX) The connection between divorce and grief

(XX) Why divorce can feel like a death

(XX) Understanding ambiguous loss and grieving the life you thought you'd have

(XX) How to move through the stages of grief without judging your emotions

(XX) People-pleasing: what it is really costing you

(XX) Why Chel calls people-pleasing "the most selfish thing you can do"

(XX) Finding the fear underneath people-pleasing

(XX) Core values and making decisions that align with who you are

(XX) Learning to fill your own emotional "bucket"

(XX) Chel's values exercise and how to use it

(XX) Final thoughts on healing, grief, and moving forward

Key Takeaways:

• Divorce is a form of grief. You're not only grieving the relationship; you're grieving an identity, a lifestyle, and a future you believed you were going to have.
• People-pleasing can disconnect you from your own truth. Becoming aware of what you're saying yes to—and what you're saying no to for yourself—is an important step toward finding your voice.
• Your core values can become your compass. Knowing what truly matters to you helps you make decisions that align with the person you want to be.
• Grief doesn't follow a predictable timeline. Emotions can come in waves, and you may move between different feelings and stages rather than progressing in a straight line.
• Healing means allowing your emotions without judging them. Learning to notice, feel, and move through emotions can help you process loss in a healthier way.

Guest Bio:

Chel Cartmill is a divorce coach, trauma coach, wellness coach, grief coach, and breathwork facilitator who has spent nearly two decades helping people navigate divorce, grief, trauma, major life transitions, and feeling stuck.

After experiencing her own traumatic divorce in 2006, Chel became a certified coach in 2007 and went on to develop a body of work focused on helping people find their voice, regulate their emotions, understand their values, and create a life that feels aligned and authentic.

Chel is also the author of Spider On My Neck, a memoir based on her own extraordinary divorce experience and the healing journey that followed. She wrote the book not simply to tell her story, but to help readers recognize that they are not alone in what they're experiencing.

Resource Links:

OsteoStrong Affiliate Referral:

https://osteostrongmn.com/affiliate-referral-koski/

Soberlink – Divorce & Family Law:

https://www.soberlink.com/divorce/family-law?utm_source=affiliatelink&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=lesa-koski-affiliatelink

Chel Cartmill's Book: Spider On My Neck

https://spideronmyneck.com/

Core Values Worksheet:

https://www.chelcartmill.com/values

Tags/Keywords:

divorce grief, divorce recovery, healing after divorce, divorce healing, divorce coach, trauma coach, grief and divorce, grief after divorce, emotional healing after divorce, divorce trauma, people pleasing, how to stop people pleasing, people pleasing recovery, finding your voice, finding yourself after divorce, self abandonment, core values, discovering your core values, life after divorce, rebuilding your life after divorce, divorce and grief, ambiguous loss, processing grief, healthy grief, emotional regulation, divorce support, divorce advice, co-parenting after divorce, healing from betrayal, divorce recovery for women, midlife divorce, personal growth after divorce, trauma healing, breathwork, Shell Cartmill, Spider On My Neck, Doing Divorce Different

Welcome back to Doing Divorce Different.

2

I'm really excited for today.

3

I have Shell Cartmill with me, and

it's such a pleasure and an honor.

4

Um, I was just telling Shell that I

picked up her book, Spider On My Neck,

5

and I started reading it last night.

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And I am telling you,

it's just a good book.

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You know?

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It's just a good book whether you're

going through something hard or not.

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Um, so that's gonna be in the show notes.

10

But Shell, you're a divorce coach, a

trauma coach, and we're gonna get your

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story because it's so interesting.

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And I know the listeners are gonna

wanna hear it because, well, I

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just plain couldn't believe it

when I was reading the book.

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So I can't wait to chat with you more.

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And then we're gonna talk a little

bit about how divorce is like a death

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And of course, I can't leave without

asking about how we can stop people

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pleasing, because that's always my thing.

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Speaker 2: I love it.

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Thank you, Lisa, for having me here.

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I'm so excited for this conversation, and

just to be able to, to talk more and be

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there for your listeners if there's any,

you know, guidance, support I can give.

22

And just happy to be here, so

thanks so much for having me.

23

Speaker: Yeah.

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I'm so grateful, so

grateful to get to know you.

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So Chelle, why don't you just

start with your story of what led

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you to do the work you're doing?

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'Cause it's a good story.

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Speaker 2: Well, thanks.

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Thanks.

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Yeah, you know, I love to start

with the fact that when I was

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headed to college, I wanted…

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I was like, "Oh, I really wanna be

a psychologist or a psychiatrist,"

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or, "I wanna help people."

34

And my stepdad said, "No.

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You're gonna go, you know, make a living.

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You're gonna go business school."

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And I'm like, "Oh, okay."

38

Find myself, you know, through

that process of trying to meet the

39

criteria to get into the business

school that didn't resonate with me.

40

It, it, I didn't know what that meant.

41

My parents were basically, you know,

entrepreneurs or in real estate, so

42

I didn't know what that looked like.

43

And I wanted to know more about what

makes people do what they do, because

44

I would see, I would see adults and

I would see people all over my life

45

talking about things they wanna do.

46

My dad saying, "Oh, I can't wait

to play golf," and then he would

47

never do the things that he talked

about wanting to do so badly.

48

I thought, "What is that?

49

What is that thing that gets people stuck

or doesn't, they don't follow through?"

50

And so I became really passionate about

helping people follow through with that.

51

And then I got married out of

college, and was married 12

52

years, had two amazing sons.

53

And in the process of that, talk

about people pleasing, very people

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pleasing, very, uh, conflict avoidant.

55

And in the process of that, I was like,

"Oh, how do I have this connection,

56

this marriage that I really want?"

57

So I read every book, every resource,

every Oprah, every single thing

58

that I could find trying to find,

like, what is, what's the answer?

59

Okay, I'll try this, I'll try

that, I'll try this, I'll try that.

60

And in that process, after 12 years, I…

61

And did I…

62

There was, there was an affair.

63

I took him back, and then there,

you know, then there's the,

64

the rest of the book there.

65

I won't totally give the spoiler

alert away, but eventually I called

66

for help, stopped people pleasing.

67

Thought, "Okay, I'm gonna speak up and I'm

gonna finally, you know, call for help."

68

All these times I'd kept myself quiet

just trying to keep the peace, being

69

a peacemaker and people pleaser.

70

And in the process of doing that, I was

arrested and had my children taken away.

71

And, you know, that didn't work out

the way I thought it was going to.

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say the least.

73

Yeah.

74

And so the kids should

not have been taken away.

75

That was, that's a whole

part of the story too.

76

That it was, the kids weren't even

present, so that shouldn't have happened.

77

And so in the process of that, and

that's, you know, part of the book,

78

but it's really about learning to

find my voice, and helping people,

79

and realize, wow, what resources are

out there to help people going through

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divorce, navigating co-parenting with

someone who doesn't really want to

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make it easy and put the kids first.

82

And learning to find my voice, and

be assertive, and communicate what's

83

going on in my life and my needs, and

actually allowing myself to, to matter

84

and be priority instead of putting

everybody else first all the time.

85

So that's, that's part of it.

86

I said, "How do I help people

have the life they want?"

87

And here I was going through all

this, and I thought, "Oh my goodness,

88

I'm gonna help people with this."

89

Yeah.

90

I'm gonna help them, you know, from

this, this trauma that I went through,

91

I'm gonna take note of every single

thing that works to help me communicate,

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find my voice, regulate my emotions.

93

And yeah, that's what my work

has been for the last 20 years.

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So in 2006 I went through the divorce.

95

In 2007 I became a certified coach

and went on to become a wellness

96

coach, and a grief coach, and a

divorce coach, and a trauma-informed

97

coach, and a breathwork facilitator.

98

So it's just any- anything I can to

support people through transitions,

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whether it's divorce, loss of a spouse,

or just helping them have the life.

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They just feel stuck, and maybe-

Wow … it's midlife or maybe they

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just feel like there's supposed to be

more and they're not tapping into it.

102

So I absolutely love people, love their

stories, and am excited to kind of give

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them a tool chest to, to work with.

104

Speaker: I love that.

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And I, I just feel like so many

women my age are looking…

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You know, I just remember kind of

awakening and going, "What do I like?"

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You know?

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What…

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It, it's just so interesting, and

I, and I'm not alone, you know-

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Oh … when I talk this with friends.

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So when you go some, through

something hard, that transition

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is really an opportunity to grow.

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Speaker 2: 100%.

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No- It's an o- it's happening for you.

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Speaker: Yes.

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Speaker 2: It is absolutely, and

that is a tough thing to say when-

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Speaker: Oh

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… Speaker 2: people have gone

through some really traumatic-

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Yes … and awful experiences.

120

And I do, I, I really truly believe that.

121

I mean, that is- Yeah

… completely where I come from.

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It's, it's a lesson.

123

This is here.

124

You know, even when I started to date

again, you know, my first, my first

125

date stood me up, and- Oh, geez.

126

That's the worst … that really helped,

that really helped the self-esteem.

127

Let me just tell you that.

128

That was, that was fantastic.

129

So, and, you know, but through the

whole thing, I was like, you know what?

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This is happening for a reason.

131

Speaker: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

133

I was spared something

through that experience.

134

And it, it is.

135

The hard things, you know, it sounds

crazy and cliche a little bit, but

136

it is what fine-tunes us and- Right

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helps us become who we were

actually created to be.

138

So those opportunities, I mean, I

don't look at that, that husband

139

as a mistake or a regret at all.

140

I believe it was absolutely guiding

me for what I needed to do to heal-

141

Speaker: Yes

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… Speaker 2: in many ways.

143

Speaker: Yep, and that doesn't make

it easy still- No … like when

144

you think about your hard things.

145

So okay, I have to dig in a little bit

because, and it's probably because I, I

146

am so excited to read further in the book.

147

But here's the thing.

148

So you, I mean, this is such a story.

149

You finally call for help to the

police because you're feeling afraid

150

for yourself with your spouse.

151

Mm-hmm.

152

How does that get turned around

to you being taken away and put

153

in jail and your kids being…

154

How does that even happen?

155

Speaker 2: Well, spoiler alert Uh,

I believe it was completely planned.

156

So when you're going through a divorce,

you know, you have custody, and he

157

absolutely loved his kids, and he

didn't want me to take them away.

158

Maybe he thought I was gonna move away

with, like, where my parents, you know,

159

where we spend a lot of time- Yeah

160

with my parents a few hours away.

161

So and, and when you have not just

that person, but another woman in

162

the ear of the man- Yeah … I think

there's, there's a lot going on there.

163

So, uh, that, uh, yeah.

164

So I think there's a little bit of

a proving I'm not weak and I'm gonna

165

stand up and I'm gonna take charge

and getting into that kind of healthy

166

masculine where it just became…

167

Yeah, I called for, uh, well, I

called, and then I basically wrote

168

the write-up when the police came.

169

Again, I was still not

wanting to make anybody mad.

170

I was like, "No- Yeah … this

is my kids' father.

171

I would never want anything

to happen, you know, to him."

172

I, I genuinely loved him, you know,

and wanted the best for him- Yeah

173

and wanted the best for my children.

174

So I, when, you know, I

downplayed everything.

175

Even though I'm sitting there in

pain in the moment, I downplayed

176

all of it, and then he didn't.

177

He used it as an opportunity.

178

Ah.

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Speaker: Wow.

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Yeah.

181

Okay.

182

Well, here, this is what I'm gonna

say for the listeners who are

183

sitting on the edges of their seat.

184

I'm gonna read that book.

185

And I'm gonna do…

186

And I am gonna do an episode.

187

So get…

188

It's Spider On Your

Neck, Spider On My Neck.

189

Is that what it's, what's-

190

Speaker 2: Spider On My Neck, yes.

191

Speaker: Yep.

192

Get it, read it, and then I will, in a

month or so, do a podcast on it, 'cause

193

I can't wait to dig in a little bit more.

194

Oh, that's fantastic.

195

It's really, really well-written, too.

196

It, like, you are on the edge of your

seat, and I could, I could be in that cell

197

with you and smell the smells and- Yeah.

198

I was just like, "Wow, this is good."

199

Speaker 2: Sorry.

200

Speaker: That was really

201

Speaker 2: well-written.

202

I feel like I should apologize.

203

You know, I, I, the, the book,

I, I really intentionally…

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'Cause I didn't write this.

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That story, it's 20 years old.

206

I've really worked to heal and, and, and

get to a- Yeah … really good place.

207

Speaker: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And it, it really

was this lifelong mission.

209

I mean, since I was 10 years old- Yes

… 19, I would carry notebooks around wanting

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to write a book, and never thought it

was gonna be my story that I would be

211

writing about the first time, and I had a

few other ideas of some books that I had

212

outlined and wanted to get excited on.

213

And I realized, "You know, I should

probably finish that bucket list item

214

for 20 years I've been waiting to do."

215

Mm-hmm.

216

"And let me just slap a cover on it."

217

And then when I got into it, I,

which you'll find it hard to believe

218

I could enjoy writing that, it w-,

it, I did enjoy it because I got

219

to be so authentic and raw- Yes

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and honest, and I wanted the readers

to be able, no matter what they've

221

been through and what they've

experienced, to be able to relate to it.

222

Yeah.

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I really wrote it to help.

224

Yeah.

225

Like I said, I don't care about my

story, but I do care if it can help.

226

And there's some insights and some

takeaways and some resources at the

227

end to really provide that support.

228

Yeah.

229

And the feedback I've been getting is,

I mean, from, from 20 to 80 year olds.

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Yeah.

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Men and women.

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It is almost identical feedback.

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Yeah.

234

So it's very, very, very interesting.

235

There's definitely something there,

and I wanna support people, too.

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I'm kinda like, I'm feeling responsible.

237

You know, things are coming

up, you know, for people.

238

And a- again, I think it's happening

for you, for them- Yeah … to heal,

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move forward, not feel alone, and

that's what I want more than anything,

240

is to, is to provide some support for

people and realize they're not alone

241

in whatever you're going through.

242

Yeah.

243

Whatever form of, whether it

be people pleasing, closing

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your voice, like you said.

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Right.

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Who am I?

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What do I like?

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Speaker: Right.

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Speaker 2: You know?

250

Yeah.

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Good.

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Speaker: Well, and what I love, too,

as you're talking about this and I

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think through it, I bet if you're

a people pleaser, that would have

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been a hard story to tell in a way.

255

Oh.

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You know what I mean?

257

Because, I mean, I always wanna be…

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Like, I always wanted to look perfect.

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I don't anymore.

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But I really did.

261

I mean, that's how I grew up.

262

I grew up that if I succeed…

263

And, but I never, like,

was able to connect.

264

So let's jump into people

pleasing before we talk about how

265

divorce is like a death maybe.

266

So tell me about that, and tell me

about what you do, like, how you

267

would coach somebody who's, um,

having issues with people pleasing.

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Speaker 2: Hmm.

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This is, this, this is one of

those, I'm not sure people are

270

gonna hear what I have to say.

271

However-

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Speaker: That's okay

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… Speaker 2: Hmm.

274

It's, it's the hard truth, and that's

my approach, is, like, I am absolutely

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wanting that person to be the fullest

expression of who God created them to be.

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And in order to do that, they have

to really know what their truth is.

277

And the part of the awareness

component is understanding what

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you're doing, why you're doing it,

and what is the fear underneath.

279

And yeah, as a reformed

people pleaser right?

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Like, I'm speaking from experience here.

281

Speaker: I mean, does it still

rear its ugly head once in a while?

282

Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I'm human, right?

283

Yeah.

284

Like, there's, you know, there's

conditioning and patterning from childhood

285

and, and young, you know, early stages,

absolutely, and I think there's natural

286

temperaments and behavioral styles and

ways that we process and communicate

287

information that's very natural to us.

288

And it's understanding some of those are

ingrained in you more than other people.

289

Yeah.

290

And I think a lot of times, like,

well, why am I not like that person?

291

Or in, in the whole comparison

game instead of really being in the

292

awareness, like, this is who you are,

this is who you're created to be.

293

Doesn't make it wrong, doesn't

make it good, bad, it just is.

294

Mm-hmm.

295

So how do we work with it?

296

Speaker: Yeah.

297

Speaker 2: So with the people-pleasing

component, it's recognizing, and this

298

is the hard truth, it's like really

having the compassion, like this is,

299

this is big, and this really, how is

this affecting you and what's it costing

300

you and what are you, what is it keeping

you from experiencing in your life?

301

And then it's the hard true, the

truth that people-pleasing is the

302

most selfish- It's the most selfish

thing you can do, which is, I wish I

303

had the emoji for the minds blowing

every time I say that, you know- Mm

304

with someone, because I remember

the first time I heard it and, ooh,

305

I did not like how that landed.

306

Yeah.

307

And it, it's true.

308

It's…

309

You're really ultimately, and here's where

I'm coming from, you're ultimately looking

310

out for yourself to make sure that you are

liked, you are accepted, that everything

311

is safe, that everything is going the

way you need it to go by manipulating how

312

people see you and what your truth is.

313

And on the note of manipulating, let

me just say, 'cause that's a, that's

314

a big word, and I remember when I was

going, you know, seeing my coach after,

315

you know, the divorce and everything,

and he, you know, "Oh my gosh, he's

316

controlling, he's manipulating," all this,

and he's like, "Everybody's manipulating.

317

We're always manipulating."

318

Every single person.

319

It's not a matter of whether or

not we're manipulating, it's what's

320

our intention and heart behind it.

321

So people-pleasing, you're

doing it with a good heart.

322

You're not trying to hurt people.

323

Mm-hmm.

324

Your intention isn't to blame,

shame, or do anything that's harmful.

325

It's usually people that are

coming with a really big heart.

326

However, it's also very much about

being, where the gap is, is being

327

honest with yourself and being able to

be okay with if you're not perfect or,

328

you know, someone doesn't like you.

329

And yeah, I got over that really

quickly with what happened, you know.

330

I kind of became- Yeah … the outcast

of town and different things like that.

331

So you know, I got over that and was

like, "Ah, well, you know, there it is."

332

"Nothing I can, you know,

can't change that now."

333

And yeah, so that's my biggest thing

is if people are in the place of

334

people-pleasing and they're recognizing

they're doing that, it's really

335

asking yourself, here's my tip.

336

Ask yourself, what are you saying yes to

when you go ahead and comply or go along

337

with or, you know, shut down your voice or

your truth, and what are you saying no to?

338

For yourself, truly.

339

Yeah.

340

Get really, really honest.

341

Yeah.

342

Speaker: I wanna dig in a little bit

more into the, the selfish aspect because

343

when you said that, I immediately thought

about myself, and I think I'm getting,

344

I'm practicing because I'm aware.

345

But like, I, you, I walk into, like,

a room, and I'm not comfortable

346

because I'm a people-pleaser and I

want everyone to think I'm amazing.

347

So then I'm not paying attention

to anybody else, right?

348

I'm not really listening.

349

I'm not, I'm all focused.

350

So that's how I see the

selfish piece of it.

351

But what about the part where you are

saying yes to things- That you should be.

352

And it's especially hard for me with my

husband, my kids, you know, my family.

353

I think it's more, it's more

difficult there than anywhere else.

354

Mm.

355

Speaker 2: Yes, it is.

356

It is with the people closest to you.

357

Speaker: Mm-hmm.

358

Speaker 2: Also because

you have learned patterns.

359

You know, you have practiced, adapted.

360

There, there's an adaptability

that's re- not rehearsed, but it's

361

been lived, a lived experience

of, of expectations and a-

362

Speaker: Yeah

363

Speaker 2: knowing.

364

My question would be, how much

do you know your core values?

365

And a lot of times that word gets

thrown around easily, but yeah.

366

Yeah.

367

How much do you, have you done,

you know, around core values?

368

Speaker: I've done core wounds.

369

Yeah, so what, so you

look at what do I value?

370

Mm-hmm.

371

And I think that's sometimes even hard.

372

Like, I mean, of course, family.

373

Um- Honesty.

374

You know what I mean?

375

So do you just sit down and

work through what you value?

376

Speaker 2: Yes, and that

sounds so vague and-

377

Speaker: It does.

378

It

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Speaker 2: does.

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It does.

381

I mean, honestly, I will tell you,

like, I am the first to admit, people

382

are like, "Yeah, I know what…"

383

You know, like you said, oh, honesty and-

384

Speaker: Yeah

385

Speaker 2: and this and that.

386

And the way I describe it, 'cause I

teach a course, uh, that, you know, to

387

help people, and w- I always start with

values because that's the key to making

388

the decisions and knowing what you're

saying yes to and what you're saying

389

no to, and if it truly aligns for you.

390

So I think it's the awareness

component always in transformation

391

and healing is- Mm-hmm

392

where are you and why are you doing what

you're doing and how is it affecting you?

393

So with the core values, it's…

394

I describe it, I, I always

picture Survivor for some reason,

395

you know, where they go…

396

I don't even know if they still do it.

397

I just watched the first few seasons.

398

But they go and at the end they put the

stake in the ground for the person that's,

399

you know, the people that have been

kicked off the show or that type of thing.

400

Yeah.

401

But I think of that as a core value,

and I think of it as walking up and

402

putting a stake on the mound that you

are gonna fight for no matter what.

403

So if it is honesty, if it's integrity,

if it's laughter, if it's humor,

404

if it's play, if it's joy, if it's

peace, if it's adventure, like, it

405

could be so many different things.

406

And so it's knowing, like, I'm gonna

fight for that, and a great way to

407

know what that is is what sets you off?

408

Like, when something

happens, what just happened?

409

Like, what was at the root of it?

410

So if you walk into a room, okay, so

let's say you walk into the room that

411

you were talking about earlier, and you

want everybody to like you and that.

412

What is that?

413

Like, what is that value

that you're wanting?

414

Is it connection?

415

Speaker: Yeah.

416

Speaker 2: Uh, it's connection.

417

Okay.

418

Love and connection.

419

Love and connection.

420

Mm-hmm.

421

Okay.

422

So a lot of times we're

looking and we don't…

423

We look to other people to

fulfill the needs that we have.

424

So when we go into a situation

or we get triggered, let's say

425

someone came up and said something

insulting or hurtful in that moment.

426

That would probab- that could step on

an- a value for acceptance, connection-

427

Yeah … love, you know, all of that.

428

And we get focused, and this happens

with spouses and relationships and

429

kids and different things as well,

but we look to the other person like,

430

"Well, you did this and you did that,

and this is what I really want."

431

Side note: Most people know

what they don't want, they

432

don't know what they do want.

433

Speaker: Right.

434

Speaker 2: So that is where you get the

opportunity to go in and say, "Okay.

435

All right.

436

That's pointing one finger at them,

four back at me, so what is this

437

that I'm not doing for myself?

438

Where am I not giving myself the love

and the connection and the acceptance?"

439

So it's a bit of a mirror- I like that

… back to yourself and being able to really

440

say, "Okay, what does really matter?"

441

And so I have a, I have a…

442

I mean, I can give it to your listeners.

443

If they wanna download, we can,

you know, add in the show notes.

444

But I have a, a values worksheet

that people- Yeah … can go through,

445

and it's a, it's a lengthy process.

446

I tell people, "Don't assume that you

know what the definition of something is."

447

Imagine sitting there explaining it to a

10-year-old or a 12-year-old, and sit with

448

a dictionary and look up is it honesty, is

it integrity, is it truth, or is it humor?

449

Like, really look up what those

words are and be able to describe

450

it and how it matters to you.

451

And then, this is the cool part,

Lisa, you get to figure out, how

452

am I making sure that I am filling

these values in my life, rather than

453

looking to- Yeah … the outside world?

454

And when you come from a place of

knowing how to fill your own bucket

455

with that, and that is not selfish.

456

Speaker: Mm-hmm.

457

Speaker 2: That is you absolutely

filling your cup so that that

458

love and that connection can j-

and acceptance with yourself.

459

You give other people permission to

give you the same because you're full.

460

It's, like, safe for you-

Yeah … to receive that, and

461

you're giving them permission to

do that with themselves as well.

462

Mm-hmm.

463

So it's a beautiful, really

beautiful experience.

464

So it takes about- I love

it … 45 minutes to an hour, and I

465

recommend people doing it a couple

times a year and checking in.

466

Speaker: Yeah.

467

Send that to me.

468

Okay.

469

I'll put it in the show

notes and I'll do it myself.

470

Shel, I might have to have you back on.

471

I would

472

Speaker 2: love it.

473

I would love it.

474

Speaker: It's so good.

475

It's so good.

476

Okay, so we talked about people-pleasing.

477

I'm gonna check out my values.

478

And when you were talking about

that, too, I just wanna say, like,

479

you think it, loving yourself is

selfish, but there's that commandment,

480

"Love your neighbor as yourself."

481

That means you gotta love you.

482

You know what I mean?

483

Like, we forget that.

484

Love your neighbor, and you

just start thinking about that,

485

but it's like, and yourself.

486

Yeah.

487

He's not saying just love your neighbor

and throw yourself under the bus.

488

Right.

489

You know?

490

Speaker 2: Exactly.

491

And, and I think- Yeah … it gets

thrown around a lot, "Oh, I love

492

myself," and, "Do you love yourself?"

493

And, "You have to love yourself first."

494

I think that it gets thrown

around to where it loses a little-

495

Speaker: Yeah

496

… Speaker 2: bit of substance.

497

And if that's the case, and you're

like, "I don't even know what that

498

means" or, "Where do I start?"

499

I think you start with, what's

your definition of love?

500

Speaker: Mm-hmm.

501

Speaker 2: And how you feel

that experience, share it.

502

Start with…

503

Start there.

504

Yeah.

505

Start there with your own

investigation and yeah, I, I love that.

506

Yeah.

507

Yeah.

508

I think you'll, I think you'll discover

some really cool things about yourself.

509

Speaker: Yeah.

510

I'm excited.

511

Okay.

512

So we'll…

513

I'll talk about that again,

too, in an upcoming episode.

514

Okay, so now let's talk about how

divorce is kinda like a death.

515

Hmm.

516

We don't have a lot of

time, but, you know.

517

Speaker 2: Okay.

518

Yeah.

519

So- You know, when we think of death,

you know, a spouse, I work with people

520

that whose spouses have passed and-

521

Speaker: Mm-hmm

522

… Speaker 2: the divorce, and I actually put

them in the same group together, which a

523

lot of people don't think fits together,

but it goes really, really well together.

524

And it is a death, because it's a death

of the life that you knew, the identity

525

that you had thought was you, and you

were, you were more than the roles

526

or the relationships that you're in.

527

You're, you're more than that.

528

However, it, it's a loss of that, and

it's a loss of the life that you thought

529

you had and that you were going to have.

530

So that's a complete loss.

531

Yeah.

532

I mean, grief, grief is

grieving the things that are

533

gone, someone or something-

Mm-hmm … that is no longer here.

534

So this is kind of where we get into what

we call ambiguous loss, where the person

535

or the things are still there, but not

in the way that matters to your heart.

536

Speaker: Mm-hmm.

537

Speaker 2: And yeah, so it's the,

it's the death of the life that

538

you knew, and that's a really…

539

Even with people who lost a spouse,

they obviously miss the person, but they

540

also, that life that they had, and that

grieving, it, it is absolutely the death

541

of what you've known and what you thought

you knew and what you thought was to come.

542

Speaker: Yeah.

543

That makes total sense, and it's

interesting, because I just had a good

544

friend tell me, she has a, a special needs

daughter who's, like, in her 30s, and

545

she's, she still is taking care of her.

546

And, um, she said that when she

was about three, I think, or four,

547

she was diagnosed, and she said a

doctor told her, um, "You're going

548

to have to let that child that you

thought you had die, and grieve that,

549

and then, you know, this is new."

550

And she…

551

And I was like, "Ugh, I hate that."

552

But she said it was, like, one of the

most helpful things she had heard.

553

Speaker 2: Mm, it's true.

554

Oh, that's so…

555

Yeah.

556

It's a little gut-wrenching to

hear that- Yeah … isn't it?

557

However, it is true, because

that's part of the acceptance, the

558

awareness of, again, awareness.

559

Like, that, all those dreams,

those images, those ideals that

560

you had, they're not gonna happen.

561

It's like grieving the child- grieving

the childhood that you didn't have.

562

If it didn't look like- Right … or you

didn't get the parents that you want.

563

It, you know, you talk about the,

the value wounds, the core wounds

564

and- Yeah … things like that.

565

It's grieving that life that you

thought you were gonna have as a

566

child or the, that you deserved.

567

And so there's, I think grief is more-

prevalent in learning how to effectively

568

and grieve in a healthy way, and not

just be sad or mourn, but to understand

569

how to move through the emotions and

how to really let them be without

570

making them bad or wrong or judging-

Right … "I should be over this by now."

571

Right.

572

And I think that's a

big thing with divorce.

573

It's like, "Oh, everybody gets

divorced, it's no big deal.

574

Like, just move on."

575

It's like- Right … oh, my goodness.

576

That person's- No … whole

world was shattered.

577

Every, every single aspect of their

world- As a- … is shattered.

578

Speaker: And I'm just

thinking it's like everything.

579

It's like betray- if you're

betrayed, there's grief there.

580

So how do you grieve well?

581

Speaker 2: Hmm.

582

You allow…

583

You grieve well by allowing

yourself to recognize, one, educate

584

yourself with the stages of grief.

585

A lot of times people don't understand the

blah, the numbness, the anger, the shock,

586

the denial, that whole questioning, "Well,

what if I'd done this, and what if that?"

587

That's a stage of it.

588

And you, you see the grief cycle, and

it looks like this beautiful bell curve,

589

and no one goes through it like that.

590

So first you understand that

these are the stages of grief.

591

You recognize them, you know

them, you learn to identify and

592

give that voice, "Oh, okay, I'm

in the blank stage of grief."

593

Now mind you, five minutes later

you could be in a different one.

594

Speaker: Well, and isn't it true- They,

they jump all over the place … you can

595

kind of be in mu- in them all at once?

596

You can go through them

at all different times.

597

Yeah.

598

Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.

599

You just understand-

You're bouncing all around.

600

Speaker: Yeah.

601

Speaker 2: Yeah.

602

And it's allowing

yourself to move through.

603

I, I like to say you're surfing

the wave of the emotion.

604

It comes on, it hits you, splashes you in

the face, you didn't know it was coming.

605

Boom.

606

And allowing yourself to feel

it and not make it wrong.

607

Sometimes you need to set a date with

that and put s- time aside- Yeah … to

608

be able to give it the full thing.

609

But I think it's identifying, noticing

where you feel it in your body,

610

giving it the voice, allowing it to

be without being wrong or without

611

judgment, and letting yourself move

through it and understand everyone

612

grieves differently, different things.

613

Yeah.

614

And a- accepting your, your process,

and having support around you.

615

Speaker: Yeah.

616

And it, you know, I, there, I just

saw, like, a little reel, and it was

617

a neurosurgeon talking about grief,

how you can experience grief and joy.

618

And he had this story about how he was

at his son's funeral and his daughter was

619

100 miles away giving birth to a baby.

620

Speaker 2: Oh, wow.

621

Speaker: And he said it was the most

interesting, you know, because they

622

were so sad, and they would get a

te- you know, a video or something of

623

the, you know, "Baby's coming, baby's

here," you know, all this stuff.

624

So- I mean, how, that's, that's,

that was interesting to me too, and

625

I think I just saw that yesterday.

626

What, what would you say to that?

627

Speaker 2: I would say that's

a beautiful example of grief.

628

It is…

629

The difference between grief and

depression, I was just talking about this

630

the other day, is grief comes and goes.

631

You can still have the other emotions.

632

Speaker: Mm-hmm.

633

Speaker 2: It, you know,

the depression, it stays.

634

It's heavy.

635

It doesn't- Gotcha … it

doesn't ever lift.

636

Depression is a, a, a part of grief.

637

It is a stage of it.

638

And I think it's grief 'cause grief is,

grief is the reminder that you loved and

639

that- Mm-hmm … things matter to you.

640

And yeah, you get, you get…

641

It's, we believe we tend

to be black and white.

642

Oh, it's this or it's that.

643

Yeah.

644

It's either this or it's that.

645

And it's, it's life and it's emotions,

and they all get to come and go and,

646

and be, and be allowed, and lo- remind

that you loved and you cared and-

647

Speaker: Yeah

648

… Speaker 2: be glad and thankful.

649

And

650

Speaker: are you thankful you,

yeah, you had them in your life or

651

the things that you got from it.

652

You know what I mean.

653

Your children, if it was a-

654

Speaker 2: Yeah

655

… Speaker: junky marriage or whatever.

656

You know what I mean?

657

Speaker 2: Right.

658

Speaker: Yeah.

659

Speaker 2: Yeah.

660

Yeah.

661

You're

662

Speaker: right,

663

Speaker 2: Lisa.

664

Speaker: Oh, I love this.

665

Yeah, it's good.

666

Okay, my dear.

667

We are at our little time limit,

but this was so good, and I think

668

I'm gonna go finish that book.

669

And maybe I can have you back on, um,

to chat through it a little bit more and

670

after I do my little values worksheet.

671

So if the listeners want to grab

that, grab the book, we'll be

672

back, um, and maybe we can do

that in the next six months or so.

673

When did your book come out, Shel?

674

Speaker 2: It came out in July.

675

Okay.

676

So it is- It's so good … it is out.

677

Thank you.

678

Yeah.

679

Thank you.

680

And thanks for reading it.

681

Thanks for reading it.

682

Yeah.

683

I would love to, to discuss it, answer

any questions, see what comes up for you.

684

And- Yeah … I'd love to hear more about

the values and what you discover there.

685

It'd be, it'd be fun.

686

I'd love that.

687

All right.

688

Speaker: That would be so awesome.

689

Thank you.

690

All right.

691

Shel, thank you so much for being here.

692

I really appreciate it.

693

I just feel blessed to have met you.

694

Speaker 2: Thank you.

695

I feel the same way, Lisa.

696

I appreciate it.

697

Speaker: All right.

698

You take good care.

699

Speaker 2: Thanks.

700

Bye bye.

701

Speaker: Bye.