“I don’t understand why people build houses like this.” If you have ever said that on site after spotting a leaky junction, a sweaty wall, or a home that is freezing in winter and cooking in summer, you are not alone. This conversation is our pushback against the shortcuts that have become normal in the Australian building industry. The whole point of More Good and Less Bad is simple. Build better homes, make fewer mistakes, and deliver healthier, more comfortable results through better building performance and smarter decisions.

We recorded this one at Pro Clima HQ in Sydney with Andy Marlow, director at Envirotecture and a certified Passive House designer. Andy has a rare ability to talk about sustainable building without the greenwashing and without making it feel like a lecture. The focus is on outcomes that matter to homeowners and builders alike. Homes that perform, homes that last, and homes that do not quietly fail behind the plaster.

We also dig into the Living Building Challenge, because it is one of the few sustainability frameworks that does not let you cherry-pick the easy bits. It looks at the full picture of holistic sustainability in construction, including materials, energy, water, and health. Not because every project needs a badge, but because it forces better questions about what sustainable construction really means when you zoom out and look at long-term impact.

Finally, we talk about making Passive House principles more buildable and accessible through Andy’s Passive House Design and Construct model. Pre-designed, high-performance homes that still leave room for personal choice, without reinventing the wheel every time. We also share the lessons we have learned the hard way, and why building with intention is about mindset, systems, and balancing the ideal with what is financially feasible and genuinely buildable on real sites.

👇 CHAPTER MARKERS 👇

00:00 Introduction

01:55 Meet Andy Marlow - Envirotecture

03:31 Andy’s Path to Architecture

06:18 Living Building Challenge Explained

10:32 Materials Red List and Declare

17:08 Envirotecture Origins and Merge

23:15 Passive House Beyond Five

25:26 Quality Assurance and Certification

31:39 Why Start PH Design Construct

34:17 Cutting Costs With Standard Plans

34:44 Builder Territories And Low Touch Builds

37:13 Margins Overheads And Markup Debate

37:54 Repeat Builds And Site Variables

39:56 Prefab Options Straw Hempcrete

47:52 Cost Transparency And Pricing Stages

52:45 Solving Housing With Design Construct

57:17 Certification Limits And Client Expectations

01:02:07 Mindful Moment And Closing Reflections

LINKS:

Our Sponsors:

Pro Clima - https://mindful-builder.captivate.fm/proclima

MEGT - https://mindful-builder.captivate.fm/megt

CR Kennedy - https://www.crkennedy.com.au/

Connect with us on Instagram: @themindfulbuilderpod

Connect with Hamish:

Instagram: @sanctumhomes

Website: www.yoursanctum.com.au/

Connect with Matt:

Instagram: @carlandconstructions

Website: www.carlandconstructions.com/

Mentioned in this episode:

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So we are coming from, uh, the real Pro Clima- Pro Clima ... Built to

Last studio headquarters in Sydney.

Matt and I went up here the last couple of days, talking to all

the cool Sydney people, and-

It's nice up here.

I don't really... Usually we stay in Sydney and Coogee.

It's actually gorgeous.

Sydney or,

uh, Coogee's beautiful.

C- no, hang on, it's Coogee.

Coogee.

Coogee.

I got, my wife kept saying it's not Coogee- Mm-hmm ... it's Coogee.

I can't take my top off.

Everyone's got a six-pack there.

It's eastern suburbs.

Yeah, I know.

That's how it works.

But I reckon we have, uh, probably the coolest Sydney

person here today, Andy Marlow.

Flattery will get you a long way in life.

I'm still waiting for that Envirotecture project to come across my desk.

We just signed ours first,

two days ago.

Yeah, well, we'll see how cool he is.

Actually, I really enjoyed working with your team.

Um, I give Ben, been brilliant.

Awesome.

I'll let him know.

And he's, and he, I didn't know, he's just sort of come on board

as well, and he's sort of really learning with the Passive House.

He's

been there for a while, man.

Yeah.

About a, about a year.

Yeah, but that's still- Been a bit ... that it takes a

good, uh, maybe a good segue.

Like it- it's not something that you learn everything overnight,

and click your fingers and changing the way that you've done things.

Like, it's a process.

Yeah, it is, but it helps when you work with a bunch of

people who've done it before.

Very true.

So who are you, Andy?

Hi, my name's Andy Marlow.

I'm one of the directors at Envirotecture, and also Passive

House Design and Construct.

I'm an architect and a certified Passive House designer.

How long have you been- What don't you do?

Um, I don't like washing dishes, but I'd rather cook.

Okay, well, that's a nice balance.

So... Yeah.

We grew up in a house where if you cooked, you didn't wash the dishes.

Okay, that's- I hope my wife's listening to this, 'cause she tells

me off for not doing both.

That's equitable.

Yeah, you need to do one or the other.

I, I, I cook, and she's like, "Well, you can clean, too." Mm-mm.

No, no, that's the way it goes.

But I make a mess.

It's my own fault.

I would, would... I'm not surprised that you make a mess in the kitchen.

I'm one of those people that literally get like 15 bowls out and put all the veggies

separate and then tip, tip, tip, tip.

After spending the last 24 hours with Matt- ... like, I think I said to you this

before, I, I got on my phone yesterday and messaged my wife Lucy and said,

"The past Hamish apologizes-

for how ADHD I was without knowing it." 'Cause I've just

spent the last, like, eight hours with Matt, and it's fucking wild

It's go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go I'm just like- Sleep

... ' cause I, I stop myself now.

Like, I'm very conscious of it, and I've, I've sort of trained myself

away f- you know, just to stop, and I'm sure Matt will get there.

I don't know if I wanna.

I like going.

Wow.

There's a difference between go and chaos.

You can go and not have chaos.

Some people like chaos.

I think some chaos is good, though.

Yeah.

I think, I think it probably works good for people like us.

We have our

ideas.

Like, we gotta stop- Yeah ... having ideas.

Yeah.

But, um, anyway- So-

digressing a little bit ... archite- architecture first.

Let's jump on architecture first.

So- And y-

a- a- and y- you weren't born in Australia.

You would've- No ... yeah, where were you born?

Uh, England.

England.

How long have you been here for?

Since 1995.

What brought you over?

What- Great year, 1995 ... came on, came on a plane.

What brought you here?

I came as a- Carlton in the finals

I

thought

you

were gonna say- Well, that's unlikely to happen any time soon, hasn't it?

No.

Hello, Charlie.

Um- He's doing shit.

We had this conversation.

He's doing okay.

He's

finding his feet.

Um-

Three

games in,

Matt.

Come on.

You want him to fail.

I think he's being lazy.

I think he turned lazy a few years ago playing footy, that he

wants it over the back too quickly and won't let up and- Anyway

... mark.

Anyway, what brought, what brought you over?

Um, I came as a backpacker.

Yep.

And basically realized, unsurprisingly, that this is really good, and

England's less good, and I stayed.

Uh, did you start in Sydney and sort of land, like... Or

did you move around, travel?

Um, started here, did the backpacker up the East Coast thing, spent

some time working on a farm in the middle of Western New South Wales.

Yep.

Um,

and then ended up back in Sydney.

Basically lived here ever since.

Well, apart from a five-year detour to the Blue Mountains.

Yep, and did you s- was this post study that you came over here?

No, no.

St- did all the study here.

Took m- I spent about the first eight years here just

working out what I wanted to do.

Fair enough.

Then decided to do this.

Yep.

And then started doing this.

Yeah, no, I mean- Were you

straight into architecture with Dick?

Uh, I worked for Dick when I was a student.

Then I went to work for a big firm in the city doing big stuff, which

is where I did Living Building Challenge project, and then I went

back to work with Dick about 2014.

So-

Wait, so you did a Living Building Challenge project a long time ago.

Yeah, we did the very first one in the country.

Wow.

Interesting.

It's pretty cool.

Yeah, that's

really cool.

I did all the materials.

Uh, I did all- We get to the... Before he gets told off.

I did all the materials research for it and a few other bits and pieces as well.

So I thought

this was a recent thing, the Living Building Ch- like, its own- No,

it's been around for a while.

And, and it's interesting.

So, so you- It's kicked off

lately, but it's been

around- It's hard.

It's awesome, but hard.

I don't- Really hard.

Has, um... I mean, look, we'll, we'll get to sort of what you guys do in a

second, but has, has the environment, sustainability, all those kinds of

sort of cliché buzzwords that we hear now always been a thing for you?

Yeah

Yeah.

Yeah.

So my original motivation for starting the whole thing was I used to spend a lot of

time driving through W- Western Sydney.

Yeah.

So through all the new suburb stuff- Yeah ... and just kinda going, "I don't understand

why people build houses like this." Yep.

For some reason thought it was a design issue, which it

wasn't, it's a societal issue.

Um, but decided if I became an architect, I could make it better.

Have you?

Mm,

at a scale, yes.

Is the scale something that I think is adequate?

No.

Yeah.

But, you know, you start somewhere.

Yeah.

And we'll get to that, 'cause that's part of the Passive House design and construct

thing- Yeah ... is the base scale.

Yeah.

I wanna go on Living Building Challenge a second.

Okay.

Um, do- for anyone who doesn't know, do you wanna give a quick rundown

on what it is before I butcher it?

Yep.

Um, it originates out of America, and the lady who, um, wrote it or

co-wrote it, um, explains it as, "It's called a challenge for a reason."

Oh, and it's a ch- I looked at doing it for mine, and I was like, "Nope."

I gave up very quickly.

Yeah.

What are, what

are, what are some of

the things that you need to, um, need to tick off?

You need to tick off basically all the same things that exist in most of

the other ratings places, except you must do all of them, so there's no

cherry-picking the easy shit, which is what, how Green Star and LEED work.

You get points to get to a level to get a thing.

Living Building Challenge, you just do it all and do it all well.

Um, the things that are really hard are materials.

Yeah, materials petal, yeah.

Materials

petal.

And so they've got a red list of materials, um, which you're not

allowed to use, which includes things like UP or PVC, um, formaldehyde,

a whole bunch of other stuff.

Asbestos, lead.

P-

PVC, PVC for- Anything ... pipes as well?

Yep, yep, yep.

Okay, so we're talking-

HDPE pipes.

Like, you have to... The point is they've picked the list because

they're the commonly used materials in buildings that have issues.

Interesting.

Yeah, they're- Like, there's no point choosing you can't use cotton, 'cause

you'd be like, "Well, who cares?"

It's all, yeah.

And so that's the part that's hardest.

Yeah.

So you can get certification for the whole building, which is what

we did at the Wollongong project.

It's a s- sustainable buildings research center for the University of Wollongong.

Yeah.

But you can also get petal certification.

So the, the categories are broken up into petals, and so one of

them is materials, but there's also, like, energy, water- Yeah

site.

And it's very American.

Like, I, I did the course, and I kind of, I kind of gave up because it

was becoming too Americanized in the sense of, like, this is talking about

you need to get solar on the roof.

It's like, duh.

Like, we... Uh, but then I started to realize like, no, they actually

don't own their airspace for solar.

So it kind of made sense with some of these things.

There's lots of things that are... Like, stuff in Australia is real...

Certain things are really easy.

Like the water.

No, water's really hard because one of the parts of the water is that no

water- Sewage ... can leave your site.

Yeah, actually, yeah.

And so you've got to work out how to li- how to treat that water

and do something useful with it.

So you're on acreage, right?

Yeah.

A couple of acres, yeah.

Yeah.

So yours is relatively easy.

You're not on acreage.

It's imp-

impossible.

It's not impossible, but it's fricking hard.

But I could- When,

when you say water can't leave the site in any form?

Black water,

sewage.

You have to treat it all.

What about stormwater?

You have to treat it.

To a reasonable degree.

I, you kn- I can't remember the finer details.

It was reasonably hard for us, 'cause it was the uni.

Yeah, so when we talk about water, we're talking about wastewater.

All forms of

water.

Even stormwater off- 'Cause you're

not trying to dam- you're trying to protect your neighbors and

not negatively impact on them.

Stormwater's probably the

easiest one, 'cause you can just send it into a garden and, and-

Yeah, but still gotta go somewhere.

Like if it- You've gotta have a garden ... you gotta have a garden.

Yeah, no,

that's what I'm saying, if you have space.

So like- But e- e-

even, even in your home, you've got, you've got a huge catching,

catching area I've got 5,000

liters underground in it.

Yeah, but,

but your roof, that, that would fill up in a massive, in a massive downpour,

a 5,000 form of drum No, no, no.

No, I, but I couldn't- I

don't have a garden to then expel it.

But that's what I'm saying.

Yeah.

That's the point.

That's, that's the point.

And so there's an urban agriculture part as well, so therefore,

to some degree it's symbiotic.

'Cause now you've got this urban agriculture solution you had to

come up with, which is related to the scale of your site.

So you need to water that, so it's gonna not die.

So that begins to help.

But the point is, it's holistic.

Yeah.

I love it.

It's increased... It's awesome.

It is.

It, it's, it's- Yeah, I love this

I would love- Yeah, right ... it's, it's one of my building goals

in my lifetime is to do one.

I actually- Do you know what?

I- I think that, I think I'd be like, "Okay, I'm done. I've done it." Like-

Challenge, challenge accepted, and you know, we live on a couple of acres,

and we will build sometime in the next five or six years, and- Go for it

we have, I think we have the perfect property for it.

You do.

I would definitely say that single resi in an urban environment is probably the

hardest to do it on- Yeah ... because of those just constraints of space.

So you've gotta be able to

edible garden.

So you've gotta produce a certain- You've got all that though

but not only, you gotta give it back to the community as well.

Like, you've gotta, like, give it to a farmers market

as well, a certain percentage.

Done.

Yeah, I know.

Done.

Yeah.

I, I give watermelons away.

Yeah.

Yeah,

there's like, so, uh, that, but this

is- How many watermelons do I have to give away?

Um, they're nonspecific about how many, but they probably wanna

know who, who you gave them to.

So just keep a list.

So not, not the, not the- Not to Matt and Bambi ... not the well-to-do neighbors

that live next door with river frontage?

Uh, they're

probably not too bothered, they just wanna, they just like to know.

Okay.

The materials pedal is a really interesting one, 'cause that's one thing

I, I didn't track, but I started to really want in my own house to understand...

It just made me aware of what is going into a house.

So I don't... So perfect example is lead.

Um, now in Victoria, we had a, they were going to change the rules recently where

they were removing all lead from pipes.

Mm-hmm.

That was, they were pushing very, very, very hard.

The government have just overturned it for another few years to be

like, "Oh, it's a bit difficult."

You can find the products out there.

I know Faucet Strommen do it.

They've been doing it for years.

But-

With, uh, for, to, for, for the record, Faucets- Faucet Strommen

do not have lead in their-

In the ones that I

purchased.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

So they don't.

So, like- Yeah, I, I wouldn't want anyone to think that Faucet Strommen have lead.

No, no, no, no, no.

Yeah.

So yeah.

So you can- Yes ... so

you can go down the, like understanding we don't want lead in our drinking water.

So, but they've, they've stopped it, but I think the, the building codes board and

the plumbing association have actually known, like, this needs to change.

It's a government decision not to do it, from memory.

It's like the opposite to what we usually argue.

It's meant to

be happening, right?

'Cause it's meant to all come out of everything to do with any form of taps.

Yeah.

And they keep postponing, postponing, postponing.

But you- So just Pho- 'cause Phoenix had a range of stuff-

Yeah, yeah ... that is lead-free.

Maybe all their stuff is lead-free But the, and then one of the big

mobs has just bought Phoenix.

Like there's- Yeah, there's- ... movements around, 'cause they realize they need

to get their act together, but they're also managing to delay the change.

But it also, they didn't give them much time,

and they all, most of them worked out, which is cool too.

They've delayed it, like, three times.

Have they?

Yeah.

I

thought it was only, like, a- Uh-

like, a time within, like, three years, five years.

It's not, like, a long... So, you know sometimes they give them, "Hey,

it's 10 years to work this out"?

But, like, three years to change a whole product in, across your board

is, like, can be a bit of time.

You've gotta set up new manufacturing facilities the way they do it, which is

awesome, and I think three years is enough time as well, but it's a, I think it's the

government that don't want to bring it in.

The companies have actually done it.

I'm, I'm, I'm curious.

I'm looking at this, um, right behind Matt now, we've got all this, uh,

product covering this frame over here- Yep ... this sort of section.

Is that part of the Living Building Challenge?

So- Like, could we, could we put that stuff in?

That... No, they're all Declare labeled.

Proclima's- They're all Declare?

Yeah.

Okay, great.

I was about to say, so there's a thing called Declare, which is a product

labeling system that is set up by the International Living Future Institute.

Great.

And so that's your easy ticket on your job.

So it's

like, it's like a, a certified passive house component?

Effectively, yeah.

The

hardest one that you will find, that I struggled with, was the

electrical cable, because they've all got a flame retardant in them.

All the ones that we've got now?

Yeah, I'm pretty sure.

That was what I struggled with the most when I started looking into it,

and that's where I actually gave up.

Most

things,

there's a lot of flame

retardants in a lot of things.

Yeah.

There used to be a cable available when they did the Sydney Olympics that was

bloody awesome, and they made it for the Olympics, 'cause there was a scale.

Yeah.

And they basically said, "It's the green Olympics, you must do this", so they did.

And then nobody paid for it afterwards, 'cause it was

expensive, and so they stopped.

So, yeah.

It proves that stuff- Can be done ... it's fixable.

Yeah.

Yeah, when there's the need.

One of the polyester insulation, there's a Declare label on that.

You'd be surprised the amount of products you actually have on your, that

you're using, actually- I, I'd like-

that can have a Declare label ... I'd, I would like

to, I would like to think that, you know, being a reasonably

conscious person, that I would be gravitating towards products that are-

Dulux Aero 2- Yeah ... paint is Declare label as well.

That's another one that we always make sure we use on our projects- Yeah

'cause it's high service area.

Yeah.

Um, it's just about, it's, it's just the f- think of the Declare label,

if anyone doesn't know, as a, you go to Coles, you pick up a piece of,

I don't know, packet of something, you check out the ingredients.

That's pretty much what they're disclosing the ingredients, and then

independently someone ticks it off.

Before, before we get stuck too much on this Living Building Challenge, 'cause

it is very interesting, and I could k- keep asking questions for the next 45

minutes, have you done any more since that large project in our Envirotecture?

Um, there's one under construction at the moment in Melbourne that Talina worked

on, which he, or is still working on, which is a bungalow retrofit, and it

was gonna do Living Building Challenge.

It stopped at the very last minute.

I, my recollection is that they ran into serious cost issues around

FSC-certified framing timber.

Huh.

Really?

Yep.

Yeah.

Because they couldn't get F... That's my recollection.

I will come back to you if I was wrong.

That's a, that's

an i- that's an interesting one.

I would've thought that would be a relatively easier one to fix.

You would think so, that y- yeah, okay, well, yeah, yeah ... I

believe, I believe that

cost was- I don't know if it was double, but it was close- it was a

li- a massive percentage increase- Interesting ... and it was for framing

timber and the p- it's- And is it PEFC?

Is

that-

No.

No, no, no.

No.

I don't know nothing about this.

FSC.

Yeah, but

so they, they're distinctively different, are they?

Yeah, different enough.

Yeah, okay.

Let me

put it this way.

There are forests in New South Wales where we chop down trees and koalas

don't no longer have somewhere to live, and they're PEFC certified.

And a lot of the time we, we not... But the, the other thing is, like,

we, we bring all these other, "Stop cutting down these forests", but

then we just go cut someone else down across the road, ne- another country.

Like merbu- like, merbu's a perfect example of, like, product we

shouldn't have or be able to sell.

Sorry, what?

Merbu decking.

Oh, yeah.

Well, some- but some of that's FSC certified, so you can get

that from a reliable source.

Yeah.

My... Well, we're going down a rabbit hole here, but that's fine.

Did you expect anything different with this subject?

It's a big, it's a very, it's a very... Yeah, it's a big rabbit hole, but,

you know, okay, yes, you can get FSC certified merbu- Mm. But w- the, the,

the forest that was there before that FSC certified forest or timber, what was

there beforehand, and was, how, what's the origin of that forest being cut down?

Someone just have enough money to buy it?

Mm. That's

kind of my issue with it all because, like, w- yes, yes, now the stuff coming

out of it is, is, is FSC certified- Mm ... um, but it's also a monoculture as well.

Sure.

So the... I don't know.

I don't know, I don't know.

I'm not saying that I pr- profess to have the answers here- I

don't know after that stuff, yeah

'cause, 'cause it's challenging 'cause we all wanna build with timber, and

then you go down the, the use sort of path and say, "Well, we should build in

steel," and I've got problems with that.

Yeah.

So anyway, what- Just don't build.

I, I

think you end up concluding that it's all bad to some degree.

Yes.

And a lot of it you're just looking for less bad.

Yeah, yeah.

What is less bad?

And that's- Yeah ... problematic.

And living- Yeah ... building

challenge is trying to do the basically more good-

More good and- ... and that's why it's such a challenge ... do more

good, do more good and less bad should definitely- Honestly, have a look

into it.

It's, it's, it's, it's fun.

Like, 'cause you actually...

Yeah, when you, when you, and, and I encourage every architect builder

to, to understand that declare label list, um, and understand the red list.

I think that's a really important starting point, just to be aware of it.

And

do you know what?

E- even, y- you're absolutely right, and even if you're not, e-

if, if it gets to the point where it becomes too challenging, still

implement some of those learnings.

One

product's

better

than

none.

Yep.

We're always trying to do one new thing or new product or new something on every

job that wildly change, that wildly changes as to what it is each time.

Yep.

But, you know, if nothing else, it keeps it interesting.

But then it becomes normal, becomes, you know- Yeah.

It's change starts somewhere

you gotta cha- you gotta ch-

you gotta challenge yourself, otherwise you get bored.

And you get bored.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like-

So, um, you, you, you came into Envirotech.

It's not something you started?

Correct.

Yeah.

So Dave Clark founded it- Yeah ... back in the late '90s.

Yep.

Um, and so he's got a long history of basically- '90s.

It's like 30-odd years ago.

Yeah.

Wow.

Good choice of

name, hey?

Yeah.

Wow.

Yep.

Um, and so yeah, he, he started it out of his frustration, ironically, with

being, doing design and construction- So he stopped the building part and

started just doing the design part.

So he's a builder?

He was a builder.

Yeah.

He's also done naval architecture and a whole-

and built a business making surfboards.

But he was much younger back then, and just was crazy- I've

actually ta- I've actually

talked to him on the phone before.

He's an interesting cat.

So ironically,

you kinda... We'll get to you going back to what Dick didn't

like doing.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Have you told him this yet?

Yeah, no, he's pa- he was part of that, of when we started it.

Yeah, okay.

So yeah, the whole PHDC thing was quite comical for us, 'cause it

was like, "Gee, you started- Full circle ... to get away from this."

It's like, "We're back." Yeah, exactly.

So anyway, but back knowing a lot of the pitfalls, I guess.

Yeah.

And so yeah, so Dick started it mid-'90s.

Yeah.

And, um, basically did a lot of really good work the whole way through.

Yep.

And then the evolution is that, uh, Talina jumped on board in 2020...

End of '22.

'22. So we're just over three years merged

now.

Yeah.

Have you been talking to each other for a while for that sort of stuff?

Yeah.

'Cause it's sort of like, I remember Brad said, like, "Talina, you re-..."

Like he said, he's like, "I wanna ask Talina, like she's already

doing like fucking cool shit.

Why would she join forces with someone else?" 'Cause he's like,

"She's doing so good." More good.

Yeah, I know, I know, I know.

You put two brains together.

Yeah.

But he was, he, um- Do

more good.

Yeah.

And not that she was doing bad.

No.

No, no, no, no, no, no.

But she's just doing more

good.

More good.

She's doing more good.

How you do more good.

And you know, there's a lot of duplicity between what we were do-

like just running two businesses.

Like why would you run two businesses when you can run one business

if it's doing the same thing?

Yeah.

Like there's

a bu- bunch of that stuff.

And you're used to having a business partner too.

Well, part of it was, so Dick's now re- formally retired.

He still does whatever we need, whenever we need, but he's formally out.

Um, and I never wanted to do it by myself.

Like I, it was alway- it was sort of inevitably what was gonna happen unless

I consciously made another decision.

And so the evolution of knowing Talina and where we got to where we got to was like,

that was fairly natural, but it coincided with me wanting to find another business

partner.

But you aligned.

That's the, that's like- Absolutely ... and that's, I think

that's the key for anyone wanting to go in business with someone.

You need to be like on the same page with the direction of what you stand for.

Yeah.

I

think you need to be on the same page in values, but then different

enough to contribute different things.

Different things.

Yeah.

No, and so we have, to some degree, lines of, "This is your

department, this is my department."

Yeah, yeah.

And then we have a bunch of stuff which does cross over.

Yeah.

And it works.

Where you can

come and meet in the middle and- Yeah ... talk through ideas and yeah.

And there's a bunch

of stuff where it's like, "I wanna do this, this and this.

Is that okay?" And she'll be like, "Yep, I trust you." And we've got o- the other

side where it, the roles are reversed.

And you had history before in a sense of like you both have

proven that you can do it.

Like it's not like, oh, it's this new space you're entering into.

It's not like

either of, either of the businesses were failing.

No.

You know?

It were doing pretty all

right.

Yeah.

Do you, do you like, uh, I can imagine when you got two extremely passionate

people, you might not wanna answer this, that the conversations can

get quite robust because like you're so passionate and you both want the

same outcome, and I feel like this is a big part of the industries.

We all, in this bubble, passive solar, passive house, like we're

all wanting the same outcome, but some reason we all fight.

Do you, like, or argue or, "This is better, that's better"?

Do you guys ever have, like, that-

I wouldn't say that we all fight- No, no fighting is not the word.

I just- There's some ex- See, there, there are some examples where one position

may not agree with the other position.

Yeah.

I think that's healthy.

Yeah.

Oh, look, a good debate is useful.

That's how you- Yeah ... get better and learn and, you know, I guess,

better your arguments about why you have the position you do.

Talina and I don't really have anything that we disagree with.

And that's why I asked the que- like, is it- We just...

Like, I'm not much of a fighter.

She's, from what I know, I know her pretty well, isn't much of a fighter either.

Yeah.

Like, you know, if I disagree, I'll say, "I don't think that that's right."

But at the same time, if ultimately one of us makes a call, depending on

what the topic is- You trust ... and you're just like, "I don't actually...

I, I would do it differently.

However, I don't fundamentally disagree with you." Yeah.

"I just think it could be different", go for it.

That's probably a bit like us.

Like- Yeah ... we sometimes are like... You're like, "I don't

agree." I'm like, "Yeah, cool.

I trust you.

Go for it."

Yep.

Yeah.

And vice versa.

But yeah,

like it's...

And, and what's- Actually, we've always got conversations back and forth

saying, "Uh, I actually don't know if I'd do that, but you know what?

Fill your boots." A- and, but what's- "Go for it" ... and

what's the, what's the worst?

Like, I'll help him pick up the pieces.

Well, look, I mean- Like, that's, that, that... Or if I said-

W- when you do the wrong

thing- No, no, yeah

you pick up the pieces.

But like, like you, like if I, if I make a bad call, you're gonna be like, "Fuck me,

we should've done it," but let's... Okay.

Oh, learn, move on.

Yeah, let's... How do we fix it?

Yeah, learn, move on.

Learn, move on.

Like you fell forward.

Yep.

Um, so, uh- What... Hang

on.

Be- before you close out on, like, in Virtech's chat- Yep

what does, what does the team look like?

'Cause I know Talina's in Ballarat.

Yep.

Is there people there and there's people up in Sydney?

How does, how does that all dynamic work?

Yep.

So there's currently, uh, Talina plus two in Ballarat, plus, uh, Courtney's

on maternity leave at the moment with- Interior designer Courtney, yeah.

Yep.

Yeah.

Um, so there's normally four of them down there, and then at the moment,

we are five up here in Sydney.

About to move offices, as we were talking about before we started.

Um, yeah.

Exciting.

And

most, is most of your work Sydney-based, or do you like...

Will you do Melbourne work and she'll do Sydney work, or it's very-

Uh, we mostly split it geographically, so mostly it's- Yeah

Talina and Ballarat do everything in Victoria.

We do everything in New South Wales.

Anything that's in another state just depends.

But we don't do huge amounts in other places, and nothing

ever happens in Queensland.

Oh,

fuck.

She's been- Well, actually- ... to Queensland a lot over the last-

There's lots happening in Queensland.

Really?

Just not in the passive house- Spice Ca- Spice Girls just come out in Queensland.

Not the, not, not in the passive house stuff.

Spice Girls just come out in Queensland.

Right.

Oh, Matt.

Oh, you know.

I don't wanna know.

Robbie Williams is touring.

I think that's more interesting, but anyway.

When

he's 50.

I would go and see Robbie Williams.

I watched his Netflix thing, and I thought it was hilarious.

He was awesome

at the grand final a few years ago, actually.

Yeah.

He was like, "This

is really cool." That was the best moment of that whole day.

Oh.

Thank you.

Yeah.

Yeah, you're a Sydney supporter, aren't you?

Yeah.

Yeah.

He was awesome.

Let's move on.

He was...

Um,

I... You did a recent article, and I wanna bring this up.

Eight- 'Cause Passive House, they five principles, but you did eight.

And you've added in performance and comfort, thermal modeling,

and quality assurance.

Just wanna talk about this.

I, I read it, and I was like, "Duh, like why has no one talked about this?"

I don't know the answer to why no one's talked about it.

Um, to be fair, I knocked it off from the UK Passive House Trust.

Uh- Ideas have gotta come from somewhere.

Every- So what is it, thermal modeling?

It's around the fact that Passive House is not just the five things

that you physically build, and there's a whole argument about whether

they're principles or not, 'cause how can a window be a principle?

But it's around the fact that you've got-

What did Jesse say?

You don't build with principles?

Nah.

Uh,

you, you can build in a principled way, though.

Yeah, but,

but a window is not a principle.

I'm not gonna- Exactly.

Exactly ... I'm not gonna argue with Jesse, he's too smart.

Yeah,

yeah.

And so this is around saying that, yeah, there are the, these things

that are the physical bits, right?

And they're- Yeah, air tightness, thermal bridge reconstruction, c- air

ti- uh, continuous insulation- Oh, I see them, windows ... windows, a- uh, HRV.

Did I g- did I get them all?

Yeah.

Thermal bridge re- Yeah ... thermal bridge reconstruction.

Those things.

Yeah.

Those things,

yep.

Yep.

But none of them on, in and of themselves guarantee anything, and therefore what

you need are basically reliable metrics, so like why, like 15 kilowatt-hours per

s- per square meter per year for heating, for cooling, those sorts of things.

So you need those reliable metrics.

You need a modeling approach to actually model them to know that the thing that

you've got is gonna deliver that, and then you need a QA system in order to

make sure that it actually happens.

'Cause at the end of the day, I can design the best building in

the world, and then somebody can royally stuff it up on site, and-

Yep

you're screwed.

Yeah.

So th- 'cause I was gonna ask you why you didn't include shading as one of the

principles, but it kinda makes sense.

It's, it's in windows.

Yeah.

As far as I'm concerned- Yeah, yeah ... windows

is windows, doors, and shading.

Yeah, yeah.

'Cause that's what I was gonna, like, yeah.

Huh.

Because it's not an appropriate window if it faces due east, is 23

square meters, and has no shading.

Because- It's just not a window ... yeah, it's gonna overheat.

Yep.

You just might as well just o- not build anything in there.

Well, look, there's a whole argument- Yeah ... if you should just live in a tent.

Um, 'cause it's, you know, cheaper and nicer and you can move it around.

So, it's-

No, d- I, I, I, and as builders, the quality assurance is vital.

Like, or I, I, I don't think... I, I think if we added quality assurance into

any building that it solves 80% maybe of the problems we'd have in construction.

As long as you've got a stick to hit somebody with at the end, 'cause

there's no point in knowing it's crap unless you've got a stick.

So our solution to that, so you've just signed- Yeah

a building contract, right?

Somewhere in the scope of works- Yeah ... it's like, "This building

will be .6 air changes or less."

And we, and in the contract we added there, um, which I found really

interesting, 'cause usually Cam will send it off to Hit B Hive to get appr-

or to Doug Green to get approved, that he's modeling matches, uh, what has...

Like, he's checking himself, but Andy signed off on- Uh, who did yours?

I'm forgetting.

Noah.

Noah O'Donnell.

Noah, that's his... I should remember.

That's my daughter's name as well.

I should remember.

But he, he did it, so Andy's checked it, which I thought was really cool,

'cause they're trying to keep the cost low, and he's like, "I, I'm owning it."

Um, but where I was getting- ... getting with that, he's like, "We've added that to

our contract, too, as well as, 'Hey, we'll achieve .6.'" So we've got a very def-

if, and it won't, something goes wrong, it's like we've got two very dis- easy

points to, to reference to start with.

Yeah, okay.

So you're not saying... So that probably, uh, goes to my concern

around contracting, saying that you're gonna deliver a Passive House.

No, no.

Okay,

you, you as a builder cannot be required to do that.

Yeah,

exactly.

Yeah.

Which is, which is great.

I'm really happy to hear that.

The .6, happy days.

Yeah.

Yeah, I get that.

And, and, and, and

installing as per what?

That certificate that Andy's giving me?

As per that, I think.

Bu-

bu- building as designed.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Which to be fair, is actually in every building contract, right?

Yeah.

Should build it as documented.

There appears to be a slightly slack attitude to that-

Yes ... in a lot of cases.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But then I... The other day, and g- and this goes back to quality

assurance, maybe a little bit off tangent, but it's relevant.

I've reached out to understand what it would cost to have a waterproofing

inspection and a pre-plaster inspection.

Gotta work out how you do pre-plaster with Passive Houses.

It... Do you do two of them, because it's pre and post?

I think

there needs to be two.

Yeah.

We do two scans.

Yeah, yeah.

So we... No, from...

So I'm independent inspector.

Yeah.

And I've been chatting to BSS Group like, "Hey, part of our process

now to the client, we're gonna do a waterproof inspection and a pre-plaster

report. You're gonna get them." Yeah.

Just, just, if we don't have anything, it's like the building

survey, we don't give it to you.

But, "Hey, these are the things we got. We're just letting you know. We're

gonna go fix them." S- so I, like, w- it's an extra $500 per inspection.

In New South Wales, the waterproofing one is mandated by law.

In California, there is apparent- uh, from memory, I think it's 29

inspections during a construction

project.

Oh.

Whoa.

What, what would you inspect for 29?

I'm unsure.

The inspect- the inspector's shoes.

I'm, I don't know.

It seem, that seems like a lot.

I couldn't think of 29 things to inspect.

Well, I mean- I could also be wrong.

Just- No, but that's pretty, that's-

There's, there's, there's a, the, uh- There's a lot more than seven

we, we, okay, we, we know that, we know that we need more.

Yes.

But we don't- Yeah ... I don't know if we do any 29.

But qual- the quality

assurance is... The p- thing that I love about the quality assurance with

this, it's not to, with Passive House, it's not to, uh, try hold... Though

ultimately there's a responsibility.

It goes on, say, Andy and I. But it's, it's a shared, we're try-

like if the champion of the project is to, to hold that accountable.

The quality assurance is to actually make sure that we're trying to

do, like if a client wants a pink kitchen, we build a pink kitchen.

I can't make that blue.

This is just no different.

It's just around performance.

Yep.

It's fundamentally, I mean, this is how we explain it to clients, it's fundamentally

about you're getting what you paid for.

Do you have to explain it to clients anymore?

People just know this is what Envirotech stands for.

N- the certification part, like we get the question like, "Why bother?"

If you think about it, right, so you, you get to the point, you're near a

con- you're near signing a contract.

Yeah.

It's already designed.

Everything's in place.

The contract says that you're gonna deliver the .6.

So then fairly valid question is why do I need the certification?

And the answer for us is because we're human, and the builder's

human, and we all make mistakes.

Yep.

This is your way to make sure you get what you pay for.

Yeah.

As Fen said, it's like the perfect insurance policy.

Yeah.

It's hard, 'cause like you go, "Hey, Hamish and Andy are building together.

How many done?" And it's like- Do you know who's the same height-

But, but as a client, I would go like, "Why?" ... who built together,

and it's like Hamish and Andy?

Oh.

That'd be adorable.

But that, but it'll be- No, we are

... but it'll be pretty, like you... I- if I'm gonna be the client, like, it'd

be a hard sell, 'cause like why... Hamish has done that multiple times.

I know he's gonna make it work.

I know you've done it, but as you said- Yeah, yeah ... mistakes happen.

Yeah,

but I think we've talked about this before.

It's a, it's different- I know ... conversation if, if, if it's talking

specifically about you and me, and I'm not saying that we're the fucking bee's

knees, but we've got experience- Got to start somewhere ... and we've got,

we've got, um, runs of the ball when it comes to building certified buildings.

Someone else doesn't.

No, I agree.

And we wanna bring more people into building these homes, so

that's where the QA comes into it.

Well,

and the other thing is, so let's pretend that Matt's our client,

and gee, that'd be fun, eh?

So, but Matt, and then Matt sells his house in three years' time, and he

says, "Yeah, but Hamish built it."

Yeah.

And the new person- Means nothing ... is like, "Who?"

So this is- Yeah, that's a good point ... a really interesting

point now, because, like, we haven't had this happen, well, we can see,

we'd say Dylan's house, he sold it.

Is, is there like a handover guide that's got to be part of, like, the Section 32?

I don't

know what a Section 32 is.

Of a contract.

But, but a handover guide, I mean, we do a handover manual for all of our projects.

But what if, what if the new owner never gets it, and all of a sudden they're not

changing the filters and there's... Like, this has got to be probably discussed.

Mm-hmm.

It's a really- Everything

... it's a good point, actually.

Yeah.

I mean, part of that sits on the owner handing over the building to

the new person, going, you know, in the same way that, like- Yeah, well

said, yeah ... here, here's the oven.

But that's a really

interesting question actually, because where would the liability lie then?

If we don't know that the client sold a house and they're my cl- Because

we go into a maintenance program where they get, uh, emails, quarterly

emails to remind them to do stuff.

Mm. What happens if they just unsubscribe from those emails, never tell that client

or the new purchaser, but I'm on the hook as a builder if something goes wrong.

You'll probably go well in court, because you'll have done all the

right things you could have done.

Mm. Doesn't mean it's the right answer.

Yeah.

But you need some form of building passport thing.

There's a couple of tech things that apparently do it, but you're still

stuck with the part that people, A, need to pass it on to the next

person, and you need to action it.

Like, it's like termite inspections.

Yeah.

Like, everyone knows what the rules say.

No one does it.

And then everyone gets surprised when the house is getting eaten

by termites.

The other, the other part is, like, if someone's built a Passive House, I

would be pretty shocked if they didn't advertise that it's a Passive House.

So most likely someone's gonna go, "What's that?" Or they know what it is.

Yeah.

So, and yeah, so that, that kind of does that.

Um-

What problem is, uh, Passive House Design and Construct solving?

So what it set out to do, so it... We started it and

launched it just before COVID.

Um- Perfect timing.

It was awesome timing.

Really good.

Just, just like now.

Yeah.

Don't worry, I've thought about that in the last few weeks as well.

I might actually deliberately not launch it yet.

Yeah.

Hold off.

It will start, it's a collabora- it started off as a collaboration between us

and two Sydney builders who had both built projects, Passivhaus projects for us,

um, who we've known for a while and done various things with and known and trusted.

And it started from the basis that basically we've all done this together

before, and therefore, we can basically do it faster and cheaper because we know

what we're doing, we've done it before.

But we're still doing custom design.

Hmm.

And so the fundamental flaw is we were still doing custom design, and

it turns out it doesn't really matter how many times you've done it, because

while you get better at it and slightly quicker, it still takes what it takes.

It's what Alter

Eco are finding.

Everyone wants to change something.

Yep.

And so, and this is the thing.

So everyone's had a crack at this in their various different forms.

Um, I've seen the Alter Eco version of the world.

There's a whole bunch of others that are not wildly dissimilar, and they all fall

over because people want to change stuff.

And so Passivhaus Design & Construct is absolutely rigidly, these are

the buildings that we have designed.

Everything is detailed.

You can choose between, like, a few material choices, color choices, that

sort of stuff- Which doesn't change any, yeah ... the geometry is the same, right?

The key thing is the geometry is the same, and you can't change that.

Can you invert them?

No.

So what if, like, you've got, like, the, depending on the s- the

orientation you want- There will be

different designs- Okay.

Yeah ... for different orientations.

Like, we've got to build the whole thing out, so it's a bit of a over time-

Yeah, yeah, yeah ... kind of a thing.

And so the point is, like, do you like this?

It's gonna cost you, let's say it's eight hundred and twenty-two thousand

dollars, whatever the number might be.

Do you like it?

Yes.

Great.

Sign here.

We'll build it for you.

If your response is, "Yeah, but I'd just like to move that wall",

that's like, that's lovely.

Envirotech is over here.

We do custom design.

'Cause we've done enough of these projects.

We worked with Carbon Lite for ages on their Rubicase thing-

Uh-huh ... which was- Yeah.

Uh-huh ... same, same but different, and every time that we had to get

involved was because people wanted to change stuff, and as soon as that

happened, the time blew out massively.

I don't know what proportion of them eventually fell over because all of

the assumptions, when they've said at the start, "It's gonna cost X", were

based on the engineering they already had, the model they already had- Yeah

the cutting machine, everything was ready to go, and now you've moved it all.

It's like, it's quicker to start again.

Yeah.

And you lose all the cost benefits.

And

that's what we were like, and even you think, "Oh, it's just moving

the toilet wall a hundred mil", that could screw the whole structure

up from a bridge beam up above.

And so the point, the broad point is, is like, so at the moment, whatever

your number is, it costs X to build a custom design house in either

of our- Yeah ... locations, right?

Mm-hmm.

We strongly believe you can do it for roughly the same size thing for

about two to three hundred K less by stripping out a whole bunch of costs

to do with design fees, engineering.

You still need some of these things, but you need them in a

much more limited- Yeah ... format.

And the other, the, the, the logic and the rationale with the builders we've got

involved, so we've got the three in Sydney at the moment, um, and we've got a bunch

of others that we were talking to in all the other- different places who've all

expressed interest along the way, and-

That was, I don't remember getting a phone call about that one, but that's fine.

So have

you got, yeah, have you got, like, certain areas?

So for example- You will.

You will.

Hamish is like, he's in, he's, this is his area if it goes in there.

Yep.

This is Matt's, this is Andy's- Yep ... and you don't cross over or you don't go.

We, that's what we're doing i- in the other places.

In the Sydney one, we've got a different setup because of how

we, the whole thing kicked off.

Yeah.

Um, but the point is that these projects are not designed to replace all your other

projects, but they're designed to slot in.

Yep.

They're designed to be low touch, is probably the nice way to put it.

So you spend, I don't know how many hours talking to your clients from the moment

they ring to the moment- Yeah, yeah

you finish, right?

We're not saying that that's a bad thing, but what... Sorry.

What we're saying is that the volume of hours you put into it is a bad

thing and contributes to the cost.

Oh, this- Same with us, right?

You spend too much time talking, not enough time doing.

Yep.

Right?

It's the nature.

2,200. We've done 2,200.

It's why volume builders don't have meetings with the clients every week.

Cool.

And so what we're saying is that those numbers are massively cut because the

only thing you've really got to talk about is being nice to each other,

signing a couple of contracts, and taking them round the building and going, "Oh

look, it's the thing that you knew it was 'cause it was already designed."

Mm. And so there's no, there's no faffing around.

And that's- And

if they wanna make a variation, they're gonna get absolutely

reamed probably for it.

There

are no variations.

That's not the point.

There aren't any.

I mean-

No, but the c- the

thing is, I don't know if our contracts say that, like if a client wants a

variation on site, like- You can refuse.

The standard contract says you can refuse and give no re- That's

such faff ... and give no reason, which I think is wrong, but anyway.

Um, but that's- That's, can, I can run with that one ... but that's the setup.

That's good.

Depends on your contract.

New South Wales contracts, you do not need to give a reason

for not doing a variation.

Huh.

Interesting.

It's weird.

I don't know why it exists, 'cause why wouldn't you tell them?

Um- It's, uh, you could just say, "I just don't wanna do it," and that's at least

a fair, "I'm just not-" It's honest.

Yeah.

But the, the broad point is that it's pre-designed.

Yeah, like- Like, it's rock solidly obvious that this is what you get.

You don't get to change it.

And so from a builder's perspective, what we've all been agreeing behind the

scenes is, 'cause we're trying to get prices, they're not the same everywhere,

but they're gonna... 'Cause obviously, like insulation thickness changes in

a few places, those sorts of things.

Yeah.

Um, and so we're getting to a point, it's like it doesn't need to be full bore

margin because your prelims have fallen off a cliff because you don't need to

cover all of the other crap you normally do, because you will just bang through

this really, really quickly and just

get them

done.

So how about with everyone's margin, like for example, my, my overheads

would be different to Hamish's.

How do we cover that part?

You still, you still price the thing.

Like, you still get to put a price in for the thing.

You've just got a reference point on what it-

But what I, I, I've got them from multiple people for the same building

in different locations, and so we know roughly what that needs to be for the

different things, and as we add to the thing, that's how that will be.

Yep.

That, that's how that all begins to work.

And, and, I mean, and, and arguably

you can work out from a, um, time in pre-construction versus what percentage

of that is y- of your overheads.

Like, you can work what, out what that number is f- and then you get, then

you can figure out what your markup is.

So it might be 25%, but it might come down to 20%.

Yeah, yeah,

yeah, 'cause of the efficiency.

Yeah, yeah, no.

Yep.

And the other thing is, the idea is that you will build multiple

versions, and so- Efficiency ... have you ever built the same house twice?

Yeah, I have, three

times.

Never.

But again, they slightly change things.

Yeah.

And so the- Where?

Which one?

Uh, Forest Street, Champion Road.

They're all actually exactly the same.

Oh, really?

Okay.

Yeah, they're all

prototypes, but they're just slightly... Like

again, things- Did, right, did they get faster from one to... I've never

met anyone who's done this, so.

No, they, they, they don't.

The, the first one was our first ever passive house.

Mm-hmm.

So there's a...

Yes, naturally we got faster and we learned from it.

But what, what we did is we learnt for the second one was we learned the

mistakes and fixed those mistakes.

Yes.

The third of... Actually, I've done two s- so I've done, no, I've did, I did a

prototype on another different design.

The third will be interesting, 'cause I think that you know now where things go.

So that, I think you would actually see the efficiencies come out in the

third, and you know, "Hey, we didn't allow enough on our wall battens, but

we had four times as much framing." So you kind of get the data to start

refining, knowing- When have you ever had four times as much on framing?

I'm, I'm just using exa- I'm just using example.

Just please- Wow.

Bloody hell ... but no, I, I think there are... Yeah, and the other,

the other hard part is it would be, where the change I would see being

the problem is the soil conditions.

That's the one thing we learned too.

But again, that's you can't-

But

that's site-specific, and will always be a provisional sum- Yeah, yeah

and it's just what it is.

I th- I think,

you know, 'cause are they all slab on ground?

That's the thing.

No, preferably not.

Pre- Oh, 'cause you, you- But then

we've got a version, we've got a version for each, slab

on ground and suspended wood

Are you, are you- That'd be the safest method of pricing, because

it, all you're then doing is adding board piers or not having them.

That would be the safest that I have learned- Yeah, if it was slab

on... That, that's what I was about to- It's, yeah, yeah ... that's what

I was about to get to, because- But it's always site-specific, right?

Yeah.

There's just a bunch of sites where you can't- Yeah ... do one or the other- Yeah,

yeah Yeah ... in a cost-effective manner.

Slab, yeah.

And so we're just like, we, we know we can do either- And are they- ... it's

one of the variables ... are

they, have you parted with Carbon Lite on these or, or some kind of cassette style?

We have not yet.

So the, at the moment we've just got the designs we've got.

We've had them pri- We've done all the work to get them

to a point where they work.

What is the next... Relaunching the bloody website's the first thing.

Um, it'd be nice to actually sell something.

Um, but then what we're working towards is having a Carbon Lite version,

and then we're also gonna do a straw prefab and a hempcrete prefab as well.

Yep.

So, but we have- Who's doing the hempcrete prefab?

Um, there's a mob called Ateto- Oh, yeah ... that are relatively- Yep

... new.

Oh, they're the ones that we should have contacted while we were up there-

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah ... because we've been- They're, they're coming in June.

No, they're in June.

We talked.

June.

Okay, great.

Yeah.

No, we spoke to them.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

They sound awesome, yeah.

Haven't done anything with them yet- Yeah ... but they're looking

at- The straw's interesting ... another house for us as well.

Yeah, 'cause he's building a prototype at the moment, his own.

They've built something already.

I haven't actually seen it- Yeah, I think it's his own ... in person.

Is it a panelized hemp?

Yep.

Yep.

So not like block work or... Yeah, okay.

No.

Uh, I think Marnie Horsing connected us.

Are, are they, like, just stud with hemp batts?

Is that what you mean?

No, no.

Uh, s- hempcrete.

It's like y- it's, um- Like a precast almost ... it's, it's, uh, kinda, sorta.

It's not wildly different to the straw.

Um, they've got a couple of different ways of doing it.

Basically, they build a frame that's normally 140 as a perimeter frame in, you

know- Yeah ... their dimensions, which 5.4 by whatever height you need the wall to

be, and then they're forming it up to give the additional depth you need beyond the

140, 'cause it's hemp you need more depth.

Yeah.

140 is not enough.

And so they form that up to then basically make the panel, and then you

can take it to site, drop it in place.

So this is, this is the- There's a bunch of complexity around where

you want- whether you're rendering inside or outside or both sides or

services or back or cladding, and so- It's, yeah ... it's, it's not-

The other- It's quite clever

the other, yeah, the other thing is what is challenging, too, especially

where I build, I, I can't even get a truck in the street half the time.

And that's why we haven't focused on having everything being able to be,

whether it's CarbonLite- Yeah, yeah, it's, yeah ... or anyone else, because there's

a bunch of sites that just don't work.

Yeah,

but

all, you know, I was just about to say, there's areas that won't work.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And there's areas that will.

Yeah, and you're impacted by... So where I live, in Moranah, I'd

probably work on multiple- Car drives, car ... 'cause I've got lots of space.

Yeah.

Yeah, see, we're in where I'm Yarraville, like, have fun.

Like, it- most of it, there's heritage to start with, so... And

these are all new builds as well.

And then, sorry, just- Yes ... just the, um- Yeah, Passive House Design and

Construct frame ... just the straw stuff- Yes ... 'cause I'm interested in this.

Who, who's, who's, um, who's making those panels?

Um, there's a couple at the moment, so there's Huff and Puff.

Oh, yep.

Um-

Is that the nine?

He's, like, really old, and he's still- Yep, yep ... but he- I had a

great chat with him on the phone once.

He's brilliant.

Yep.

Um, and also, um, Sam, uh, Viva Homes.

Oh, yep.

Or

Viva Panel, I think that's who- That's who Dave went up and drove up and learnt from.

And, and with these, so for example- And they're fundamentally

the same system

the

straw is, like, prefab, prefilled.

Like, the, uh, like, that's a traditional frame with just straw bales

pr- potentially inside it, isn't it?

No.

As- It's not bales as such.

Uh, it's compressed straw, but it's not actually in bale

format anymore, I don't think.

Yeah.

But they build basically a coffin, effectively.

Yeah, yeah.

Is there um, and I don't want to give away too much information, but is there

much, um, price difference between the three systems that you're looking-

We haven't gotten that far.

Straw's pretty reasonably priced.

Straw, straw, straw as a material should be, will be cheaper than the others,

'cause it's basically close to free.

But I reckon, I don't know, is the short answer.

Yeah.

It'd

be interesting to see the, the how you unpack it, and then also

whether or not the builder then just starts, decides to stick build it.

Yeah, so what we normally find, every, this has got nothing to do with Passive

House Design and Construct, but in, in Varietech's experience, what we find is

the make or break of every prefab is how much margin the builder chooses to put on

the large cost item from said prefab firm.

Yeah, yeah.

So you get a 2, 250K bill from CarbonLite or whoever, and if you got full ball

margin on that, then the job falls over.

If you look at it and go, "Gee-" it's gonna take me four days- Yeah ... all

the risk's been taken away from me pretty much by the architect and Carbon

Lite, and yeah, I got to check it, but gee, this is as low risk as it gets-

We, we, we- And I'm happy to make- We-

3% or whatever the new number may be, then

it works.

3% off.

Yeah, no, I think, I think the res- but it comes back, where it

comes back- I like extreme numbers- ... because they avoid arguments.

Where, where, where, where it, where it comes back to you though

a lot of time is the labor cost.

So like that, and we know, I think I wasn't there last year, a huge

amount of project cost is labor.

That's the big ticket item there.

So whilst your margin, even if we- Where,

w- w- just a bit, a bit more context, where you were, you weren't at the

conference last year when Andy was talking about that in his- But he,

he actually reached out to me for information

on that.

No, I understand that, but you didn't give any context around that comment just then.

Sorry, yeah, sorry.

So, because I wasn't there last year- Yeah.

And we all know that labor's this... I'm like, "Where the

fuck is that coming from, Matt?"

So yeah, so I, um-

Matt wasn't at the conference last year.

Okay, cool.

Keep moving on.

Andy, Andy did a presentation.

I did.

They had a whole bunch of- When don't you do a

presentation at the Passive House Conference?

Year before last.

But I'm doing one this year.

I know, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sorry.

Um, the, so what I- 'Cause if you take off hypothetically... Sorry, Matt.

If, if you had a frame on a 550 hours, if you decrease that to 100, and then

just hypothetically the margins at, we'll say easy number, 25%, yeah,

you could take off, you, you've got to take- Marginal, marginal markup.

Markup.

So we take the- Just clarifying.

Yeah, I know.

So you take your overhead component, that can't change.

That's the only- Ah,

ah, ah, ah.

Why?

You've saved eight weeks on a job.

Where's my dollar saving?

Just in the time on site.

No, hang on, hang on, hang on.

No, no, no.

No, no.

It, 'cause you need to understand where- Yeah.

So we're talk- okay, you've got markup.

Yep.

So overheads sit over here- Mm-hmm ... that exist outside of cogs.

Yep.

Right?

Then you've got supervision, project management.

Yeah, yeah.

Yep.

There's discounts there.

Yeah, yeah.

There's not discounts here.

Hang on, but what are these based on?

Oh, running cars, offices- Okay

fuel.

All right.

Yeah.

So I'm buying a house from you.

Yeah.

Right?

And you, let's say it costs you a million dollars a year

to- Yeah ... run your business.

Yeah.

That's an easy number, right?

Yeah.

How many houses do you build in a year?

It's worked off a per dollar.

Hang on.

No, no, no.

Don't... I, I think this is actually unfair to try and pick this apart because

we're not talking about real numbers.

Like- Okay.

My broad point is that you would have your co- your overheads, anything

that isn't the building of the house-

Yep

... right, is, they, they are solid numbers, but they are fundamentally

spread across the number of projects you can do in a period of time.

Some, yes.

All.

Your costs are the same, right?

It's gonna, let's say it costs you a million dollars a year.

If you build six houses or eight houses, your million dollars

of overheads, correct me if I'm wrong, are give or take the same.

Sure.

Yeah.

And therefore, what I'm saying is that my house, if it was quicker, or the

eight people who use you next year, if those eight people buy houses, they

should pay the million bucks between them- If you build six houses in a year,

then the six peoples pay the million.

And so what I'm... M- my thing is that the costs to clients should decrease

when your time on their job decreases

And, and your, and your architecture fees come down, and you make less

money- We- ... by turning over more?

We char- we, we base our fees on the time it takes us to do the job.

So I don't, I don't- So ours is exactly- That's how we get our

price, so- I'm not, I'm not,

I'm not disagreeing with you that there- Yeah

there should be costs off.

Yes.

I, I fundamentally agree with you.

Supervision, 100%.

Project management- Yep ... 100%.

Contract admin, 100%.

Markup.

Mm. But, but, but I think it's... And I'd li- I will show you spreadsheets one

day- Mm ... 'cause I think when- when you, when, when, when I show you how

we work it out- Yeah ... I think you'd understand that I don't think that the,

that the overall minimum markup that you need to do to, to cover your overheads

should be touched in that scenario.

I think the cog should be- Mm-hmm.

Yeah ... 100%, definitely.

I think to some degree it doesn't really matter, so long as there is

a reflection in the overall price.

Agreed.

100%. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

100%. 100%.