Amid a sea change in policies and practices, how do employers design the types of plans and policies that ensure employees feel safe and supported? Listen in to this episode for guidance and tips from Ali Schaafsma, director of absence consulting for Brown & Brown Strategic Non-Medical Solutions; and Melanie Payton, CLMS, assistant vice president of Absence Consulting and Audit Practice for Brown & Brown Strategic Non-Medical Solutions.

Resources:

• The Business Case for Inclusive Leave Programs in DMEC @Work magazine
• DMEC AbsenceNavigator™ leave planning tool

Hear more from Ali Schaafsma during the 2025 DMEC Annual Conference Aug. 3-7 in Washington, D.C. Register today!

Heather Grimshaw: Welcome to Absence Management Perspectives: A DMEC Podcast. The Disability Management Employer Coalition, or DMEC as we're known by most people, provides focused education, knowledge and networking opportunities for absence and disability management professionals. DMEC has become a leading voice in the industry and represents more than 20,000 professionals from organizations of all sizes across the United States and Canada. This podcast series focuses on industry perspectives and delves into issues that affect DMEC members and the community as a whole. We're thrilled to have you with us and hope you'll Visit us at www.DMEC.org to get a full picture of what we have to offer, from webinars and publications to conferences, certifications, and much more. Let's get started and meet the people behind the processes.

Hi, we're glad you're with us. I'm Heather Grimshaw with DMEC, and today we're talking about the business case for inclusive leave programs. Our guests are Ali Schaafsma, Director of Absence Consulting for Brown and Brown Strategic Non-Medical Solutions, and Melanie Payton, CLMS, Assistant Vice President of Absence Consulting and Audit Practice for Brown and Brown Strategic Non-Medical Solutions. They have agreed to share additional context about how inclusive programs influence employee recruitment and retention rates, one of the many topics they explore in a recent @Work magazine article, which we will unlock for podcast listeners. So to kick us off here, you reference a sea change in policies and practices faced by human resources professionals in your article, and that a grounding point is the central goal of fostering equitable, inclusive and representative work environments and leave policies. Would you talk a little bit more about what that looks like in practice?

Melanie Payton, CLMS: Yeah, I think we're sort of in unprecedented times, Heather. As we have come out of the pandemic and as the enormity of legislation around mandated paid leave has grown in the US I think more and more employers are having to take a thoughtful and deliberate approach to work environments and leave policies in particular, which is the place where Ali and I spend all of our time, pretty much. And part of that, I think, is due to employees being aware of what's available to others across the United States. So if we just look at paid leave for a moment and we'll dive deeper into these topics, I'm sure, over the course of our time together. But if we looked at just mandated paid leave with social media, there's definitely an awareness of what others have access to and what others don't have access to. And so I think employers are faced with trying to make those benefit offerings in their organizations as equitable as possible across multiple different employee types. And the challenge with that is consistency and also parity as well as cost, quite frankly, and the ability to run your business while still offering an equitable program to your employee population.

Ali Schaafsma, CLMS: Yeah, I think Melanie brings up a really solid point. When we also look at know, the evolution of social media, we, we no longer have the ability to be working in silos as large organizations. The, there's so much transparency and I think that transparency has also driven the various generations to approach things differently. We're seeing a lot of driving from Gen Z to, to really create more equitable programs. And I think that that's also forcing older generations to start looking at that as they go through their own life experiences and expand to really meet our employees where they're at, knowing that that's a lot more visible than it used to be. So I think that's a really critical thought for employers is how do we create that space that, that welcomes all people to the table, knowing that it's as visible as it is.

Heather Grimshaw: That's such a great way to start off our conversation. And Melanie, you mentioned unprecedented times and that social media component and Allie, it's, it's. I appreciate that comment. Meeting employees where they, where they.

One of the other things that you mention in the article is that benefit and leave policy design is frequently overlooked in this conversation. Will you talk a little bit about.

Melanie Payton, CLMS: Why I feel like leave policies are usually the last on the list? Heather, oftentimes. And I think Allie and I, you know, digs at our heart a little bit in that regard. But I think employers, when they're looking at benefit offerings and benefit programs holistically, they're thinking largely around medical and financial policies. And that makes sense to a degree. But I would argue that leave policies are also health related, medical related and financial related. And the ability to take that time away from work that's protected and paid when possible, when it makes business sense, of course, is hugely important. And I think that in multiple facets of the type of work that Ali and I do, leave is sort of last on the list.

And so I think that oftentimes employers don't intentionally think about a leave policy that's inclusive and broad. And we hope to, with our article and with this podcast, change some minds around that.

Ali Schaafsma, CLMS: You know, I think the reason that leave is often last on the list is there's this common misconception amongst employers that the more I talk about the availability of leave, the potential for abuse moves upward. Right. And you know, there's also the school of thought of, well, I already offer my employees PTO. What else do I need to offer beyond that? And I don't know that we're necessarily here to push. You need more time, right? You need more buckets. It's more about taking what you have and expanding your thought process on that. And how do we encourage employees to leverage this time in appropriate manners? We need to get over that hump that, that if I'm away from the office, I am now a problem to my employer. Can we look at it more of if I create an environment where employees feel empowered to leverage the time for the reasons they need, do I therefore have healthier employees within my space? That when they are here, they're able to focus, they're able to really look at, you know, feeling confident and comfortable and supported and therefore are willing to do the work in more meaningful ways because they have that space to move within.

So I think that that's a place that we need to get at as employers. When we think about these leave benefits is how can I ensure that my employees feel safe, comfortable to use them for the reasons they need?

Heather Grimshaw: That's really helpful. Thank you both. I'm hoping that you'll also elaborate on what you describe as the business necessity to designing these types of policies with recruitment and retention goals in as well as other pieces. And if you have examples that you'd be willing to share, that would be great.

Ali Schaafsma, CLMS: As we kind of started this, this podcast off, we know that DEI is under a period of change. Right. I think that we need to really dive into what does that mean? Right. How can we, you know, look at the foundation of DEI, which. Right. Started in the 60s and, and how do we move that forward? And I think that there are conversations that is DEI creating a block or do we have an ability to really look at it from a different lens and say DEI is just good economics.

So Gen Z has a much more focused look at finding employers that match their cultural approach, which tends to be diverse. Right. So I think that that's going to be critical for employers to continue to look at is how do I look at the generations coming into my workforce,

how do I attract them, how do I retain them through these policies? I think that's going to be a critical move. But I'd love to hear Melanie. I know she's got a lot of good thoughts on this as well.

Melanie Payton, CLMS: I would agree. I think Gen Z, as well as Millennials, they expect a continued effort around DEI regardless of what might be happening currently, as Ali alluded to. And so even absent a formal program inside of an organization, they want a continued effort around dei. And I would say, you know, that's all encompassing for me. You know, we have a particular focus in this article around specific populations, but I think with what we're seeing today, we have to think about race, we have to think about age, we have to think about gender and sexuality as well as disability. And those two generations in particular are going to choose where they work based on the culture and the environment that they feel is most inclusive to where they want to spend the majority of their time in their work world. And I think that, you know, leave policies, speaking back to what we mentioned a moment ago, this is an area where we have a number of clients who have put in expansive sick time policies as well as compassionately policies. And those policies reflect things like diverse definitions of family, parental leave programs that take into account any method by which an employee may be some apparent. So including surrogacy as an example or in vitro fertilization, and time away from work for those reasons.

Heather Grimshaw: Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you both for those examples. And I like the question, Allie, is DEI just good economics? And then also just to encourage listeners to click through and read this article, the examples shared in the article are really powerful. And there's also quite a bit of data, as Ali mentioned in the article, that highlights a disconnect between employer assumptions about policies as well as employee expectations. And I'm hoping that you two will share some of the data for listeners who might not have read the article yet. And Allie, you just did share a little bit, but talk specifically about the disconnect with what employers may assume employees want and need and share an example of how employers can accurately assess employee needs and incorporate them into their leave policy and program designs.

Ali Schaafsma, CLMS: I think that, you know, one of the interesting things is we look at the fact that, you know, we've had leave mandated laws in place for quite some time. Right. So you look at the 90s, and the entrance of FMLA, and FMLA really came to the table to say, hey, we need to find a way to protect employees from losing their positions based on the fact that they need to take time to care for themselves or a family member. And we saw very strict definitions come in around what that care looked like and what that family member looked like. And so it almost set the precedence that there were these critical moments which I think were important not to take away from that. Right. That if I had a sick family member with a serious health condition or I had a baby, or we're bonding with that child, those were kind of set as the foundation which we needed. Right. But really, when we look at that, that's a very narrow scope. And I don't think that until we started to see paid family medical leave come into play and sick leave laws that expanded into paid leave for any reason, when you think of states like Maine or other states that are adopting, like Illinois, hey, employer, you need to give time away, period. Right? And that really started to push the bar of what leave meant. And so I think we're starting to see employers understand that bigger picture of, hey, it's not just a serious health condition. We have employees, especially women within our organizations that are in midlife, that might be going through perimenopause and menopause. That's not a serious health condition, but it absolutely affects employees within organization. So I think that employers are starting the onset of thinking more broadly beyond those initial forms of leave and creating compassionate leaves where we don't necessarily want to create a whole new bucket of 12 weeks, but how do we identify and allow employees, Again, as I mentioned earlier, and I'm probably going to say a lot throughout this podcast, is to meet employees where they're at. Um, so I do really appreciate those employers that are starting to push that bar beyond traditional leave types by bucketing time that's really targeted towards those moments in life that matter, emergencies, global situations, and so on and so forth.

Melanie Payton, CLMS: And to add on to that, Heather, you talked a little bit about data and employer gaps, if you will. Ali mentioned before, a lot of employers assume, well, I offer vacation or I offer paid time off, and that must be enough for my employees. And I think that there's an assumption that employers make that because they offer that vacation time or because they offer that pto, or even because they offer, you know, what they feel is a generous sick time bucket, that's not necessarily what employees are looking for, even though they assume that it is. And so some of the things that we talk about in the article are to look at your data to see where folks are taking time. Are they taking it for paid leave? Are they taking it for unpaid leave? Are they taking disability events? And I think it's important to know going into that, as you're looking at your data, even if you look at your FMLA information, that data that you review may not tell the whole story that's happening inside an organization. If you think about FMLA that Ali mentioned, that's only leave for a spouse, a parent, or a child, which today is a pretty narrow definition of family in the way that all of these generations define who their family members are. And so you might have to look at your vacation and PTO data, you might have to look at your sick data. You may actually have to look at unpaid leave types like personal leave to see if folks are taking that time away to cover a reason that's not applicable to or available to them through other types of leaves that the employer offers to their population.

And the other thing that I think that we can do that isn't too hard if we do it the right way is to survey employees about what they're looking for. And I think that, you know, kind of going back to what Ali said before, I think there's also a misperception that if I put it out into the universe, it will be misused.

So if I go and ask my employees about what leave types they are looking for or what kind of time away from work would be meaningful to them, to say it a different way, it doesn't mean that they'll all take it. It's getting to that point that Ali mentioned of meeting folks where they are, providing folks what they need when they need it, and not doing it across four or five different policies, but making one policy that's broadly encompassing so that it affects as many types of employees as possible,

and so that it's also easier for the employer to manage and to administer.

Heather Grimshaw: Follow up to that. We seem to be hearing more about large disconnects between employer assumptions and employee realities or employee needs. And I'm wondering if this is a situation that's getting worse or if it's a consistent challenge for employers.

Melanie Payton, CLMS: I think it's a consistent challenge and it's an ever evolving challenge. So, you know, as more and more of those paid leave mandates pass across the U.S. whether it's a state PFML program or if it's the unlimited time off for any reason that Ali mentioned before,

again with social media, that information is getting out there to employees who don't have that, who don't have access to it. And so I think there's always a reactivity for employers to understand what it is that their employees are really looking for and to balance that against what might be,

for lack of a better term, trendy. So what's trendy and what's hitting the news versus really what's valuable to a broad scope of the employee population. And I think that's why the concept of compassionate leave is so interesting. And we have some clients that call it different things. So I think compassionate leave is probably the most prevalent term that we see. We see some other terminology for it as well, but it encompasses multiple different types of reasons for leave across all types of employees. So it's applicable, it's beneficial. It's again easier to administer that one policy instead of a separate policy for pet bonding. And then I'm going to have another policy for care of a close friend, you know, not necessarily a family member, but, but a close individual, a person of close affinity, to use some of the legislative terminology. And then I'm going to have A pet bereavement policy. I'm going to have menopause leave. There's so many different types of leave that hit the news again that seem real trendy but aren't necessarily appropriate and relevant for the employee population. And I think as more and more of that comes out, employers always have to evolve in terms of what their paying attention to and how they're engaging with their employee populations to determine what is it we want to offer and if and why we want to offer it.

Heather Grimshaw: I think that will really resonate frankly with employers and listeners overall, that question of what is appropriate and relevant to your employee base versus what's trendy or quote unquote, trending on social media and online, just overall. So there's a reference to forward thinking employers in the article and I'm hoping that you'll talk a little bit about what those employers look like and whether you're seeing more of them.

Ali Schaafsma, CLMS: Yeah, absolutely. This is such an exciting space to be in where Melanie and I get to sit with some really amazing employers. And the diversity of those employers is actually a lot more impressive than we might think. Too often I think we can, you know, be bogged down with the negative attention that we might be seeing in the news right now. But I think that's a really small portion of the picture because what I'm experiencing is all types of employers that are really looking at this in meaningful ways. Our days within our consulting group right now are often filled with employers that are coming to us more than they have in the past to say we need to look at our leave of absence policies and we need to expand while, you know, addressing business needs. And I'm excited to be in that space with them. We've got employers in manufacturing spaces. I have a very large retail employer that the initiative from the top to the HR organization is we need to make our benefits more equitable across the board. And that's fascinating to me. In a retail space where we've often seen employers limit time away because of fear of hourly workers, quote, unquote, misusing those programs. What a wonderful time to be in, to see them, expanding them and saying, hey, if our top executives are getting 100% pay to be away from work for this time period, why are our part-time employees not receiving that same benefit? Melanie, I know you've been working with a few groups as well on looking at how do we create more equitable leave programs. I'm sure that you could share as well.

Melanie Payton, CLMS: So we have several clients that are intentionally looking at the expansion of their leave and disability programs to catch that broader swath of the employee population. We have a large retailer, actually two large retailers that have an enhanced focus on leave of absence in terms of what they offer to their employee population and how much and what it looks like and how can you take it and ensuring that it's applicable to every employee.

So I think that historically what we've seen in some cases is, you know, a certain population, as Ali said, gets the super rich benefit. Maybe it's 100% disability benefit for six weeks, the first six weeks of the disability, but that's for a carved out portion of the employee population.

We have several clients that are looking at that to say, you know, that's not really equitable, that's not who we are as an employer, that's not who we are as a culture.

Two things. Every employee and every disability deserves that same level of benefit. We shouldn't carve out a particular type of employee, we shouldn't carve out a particular type of disability under the definition of the plan.

Everyone should get that. And so that's part of what we're seeing within that. One of those retailers, there's another retailer that we work with that's taking a similar viewpoint around accommodations and attempting to increase the parity, if you will, of accommodations that are provided not only because of what has to be provided under the PWFA or the ADA, but to really look at that process across the entire organization down to that supervisor level to ensure equitable treatment and equitable application of an accommodation for those individuals who are similarly situated. So it's happening across our client book of business, regardless of what's happening in the rest of the world.

Ali Schaafsma, CLMS: And just to throw in there, one of the things that I've also started to hear a little bit more of, which is impressive in these times, is of course money's an issue, but it's not right.

Meaning they are understanding the investment in their employees through their leave of absence programs, that those investments bring back an economic growth for them. And I love that because I think, like I said earlier to set the stage up for this particular response is that don't get bogged down in what you're seeing on social media or the news or what have you as what's happening.

Really talk to your peers, talk to your peer employers, because I guarantee you that's not the majority. The majority that we see are really,

really working hard to expand these thoughts for their employee base because they know it's going to return their value.

Heather Grimshaw: That's Great to hear. So my last question for you all today is what employers should consider when they're looking at how to support employees who are in what many describe as marginalized communities and maybe feeling at increased risk to ensure future success.

Melanie Payton, CLMS: I think that's a great question, Heather, and I think it's one that employers are especially right this moment figuring out how to react to with the current administration and the climate that we have right now. You know, there's been an elimination of many DEI DEIBA programs across employers, across universities, across many areas of the country. And there's impact there for the elimination of those programs across the spectrum of employee types that I mentioned earlier.

Race, age, gender, sexuality, as well as disability. And I think that while laws still exist for those protected classes, the formal intention around equity and inclusion may be less visible to employees and to outsiders. So I may not work at a particular organization, but I hear in the news that they have eliminated their DEI program. Or on the opposite side of things, I may hear that a particular organization has doubled down on their efforts and they are definitely not eliminating their DEI programs for the clients that Ali and I work with. I think one of the things that has been important for me individually is to still see a focus here, especially in the leave and disability space, for benefits for these marginalized communities and those feeling at increased risk. There's still focus on equitable benefits. And I think that has been pretty amazing to see. You know, I have some friends, just a personal anecdote. I have some friends who have intentionally boycotted many retailers because of their decision to eliminate DEI programs. And some of those retailers are our clients.

And I had a conversation with one just this weekend to say, you know, those, those individuals, those companies are, you know, part of our client book of business. I can tell you that they are still focusing on areas where folks feel at risk.

And even if the news reports one action, it doesn't mean it's representative of the entire organization and their efforts in the benefits and in the leave and disability space. So even though those formal programs may have been pulled back, what Allie and I see is still a commitment to diversity, equity and inclusion across those populations, regardless, again, of what the news actually puts out there.

Ali Schaafsma, CLMS: Yeah, I think you're spot on with that, Melanie. I think that again, as I mentioned earlier, how this is being told in the news isn't always how we see it playing out. Right? Because I think that there's an opportunity to rethink what diversity, equity, inclusion means right from when it was first established. And I think our employers are still doing that. And how they're doing that is more in the space of let's stop talking about it in terms of specific numbers. Right. Where we don't have quotas to meet. And I think that DEI often is mis-sold as, oh, well, you have to have these quotas. And that's not true. I think our employers are looking at the equity making. You know, we talk about in the article the importance of understanding your own organizational makeup because that's your community in that particular space. Right. My employer is my community for my job.

And how does that employer create benefits that represent that community? It's no longer about I have to have benefits that are specific to any one marginalized group. It's. It's really, how do I just understand those groups, understand their needs, and neatly roll it up into some type of benefit that is now accessible by all types of people rather than those strict definitions we spoke about earlier,

that my family doesn't have to be my legal parent, my family can be chosen. And I see employers doing that all the time is saying, hey, wait a minute, you know, we need to expand on this or we need to tout more of this benefit because our community needs that.

Right. That is what they expect. I love that. Melanie, what you were saying is, is, is that we have to really put the power back in, in what's really happening out there instead of what I think sometimes sells as what's happening. If that makes sense.

Heather Grimshaw: That makes a lot of sense. And I, I think it's such a wonderful way to, to wrap up our discussion today and really appreciate your encouragement for employers to talk with their peers and maybe dig beneath the surface of what they're reading in headlines to see what employers are doing. So I think the fact that you all are seeing employers push the bar and potentially redefine how they ensure equity across their employee populations is really exciting. So thank you both so much for your time today.