The salient point of this podcast episode revolves around the critical importance of leader care, as articulated by our guest, Jake, from the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability (ECFA). We delve into the profound impact that healthy leaders have on fostering trust and integrity within organizations, particularly in the context of churches and ministries. Jake elucidates the correlation between leader well-being and organizational effectiveness, emphasizing that a commitment to caring for leaders is not merely beneficial but essential. The conversation also introduces practical tools, such as the leader care plan, designed to promote holistic health among leaders, thereby enhancing their capacity to thrive in their roles. Throughout our discussion, we underscore the necessity of proactive measures that boards can implement to support their leaders, ensuring the sustainability and vitality of their organizations.

Takeaways:

• The podcast emphasizes the critical importance of leader care in fostering healthy organizations.
• It highlights how healthy leaders positively influence organizational trust and overall effectiveness.
• Listeners are introduced to a leader care plan designed to promote holistic health for leaders.
• The discussion includes the significance of boards supporting leaders to prevent burnout and encourage well-being.
• ECFA's seven questions are presented as tools for boards to engage in meaningful conversations with leaders.
• The episode underscores the need for leaders to regularly assess their mental, physical, and emotional health.

Hey there and welcome back to the Clarity Podcast.

This podcast is all about providing clarity.

It's life and mission.

And my name is Aaron Santemaier and I'm going to be your host.

Today we have the phenomenal opportunity to have with us a gentleman by the name of Jake.

And so we met in Orlando, Florida at Mission Nexus and he was leading a session or organizing a session for ecfa and we'll get into what ECFA is and it was on the importance of caring for leaders and the importance of that.

And so ECFA has, you know, they've created some guidelines and some standards for what that looks like to excellent in leader care and it's part of their accreditation.

Normally they deal with finances and all the logistics of organizations, but they've recognized that healthy leaders greatly impact and help create healthy organizations.

So we get to sit down and learn from Jake today.

Great insightful conversation and they put together a great we'll talk about the tool they put together creating your leader care plan and your journey to holistic health.

And they worked with Soul Care on that and it's a blessing.

I think it's something that each person can do and we'll talk about the details of it.

But really appreciate ECFA and their desire to see leaders healthy do and ask you to continue to subscribe to the podcast.

I know the podcasts I subscribe to are the ones I listen to.

They show up on my feed every Monday or Tuesday and know what my week is least going to sound like throughout the week, whether that's at the gym or that's in the car or out out for a walk.

And I do want to thank you.

Many of you have listened in since the beginning.

We're well past the six year mark now or at least a few weeks past it and 350 episodes or more recorded and just been an honor and joy to walk this journey with you.

Thank you for listening in and looking forward to more great episodes in days to come.

And one of those, one of the big parts of the podcast has been back channel with Foth.

So please continue to send in your questions for Backchannel with Foth.

And that's where we get to sit down with Dick Foth and get to learn from him and he's been with us.

I look back just months in from the start of the podcast.

He's been on this journey with us and it's been fun.

Well, there's no time better than now to get started.

Here we go.

Greetings and welcome back to the Clarity Podcast.

So excited to be here with a new friend of the podcast, Jake.

Welcome to the podcast.

Thanks.

It's great to be here, Jake.

You and I got to meet in Orlando, Florida at Mission Nexus and got to have the opportunity to sit in a leader session that you all were providing and so thought it'd be great to have you on the podcast.

Before I jump into my questions for you, will you go ahead and share a little bit about yourself and then share about ec.

Ecfa?

Yeah, happy to.

Aaron, thanks so much for inviting me on.

Yeah.

So, Jake Lapp.

I serve as the Vice President of Member Accountability here at ecfa.

My background is almost exclusive.

I'm a cpa.

So.

Okay, that's, that's my background as far as profession.

Most of my working experience has been in churches and ministries through auditing through denominational leadership.

Now here at ecfa live in Winchester, Virginia.

Oh wow.

Where it's nice and cold right now.

But I'm married.

I have three wonderful kids.

I've been here at ECFA for seven years.

In March it'll be seven years.

But ecfa, a little bit of background on ECFA is ECFA stands the long term is Evangelical Counsel for Financial Accountability.

Just throw that out there.

Some people call it ECFA.

You can say Yakva, ECFA.

Whatever's easiest for you, we answer to.

ECFA has been around for a couple of up on 50 years here in a couple years, few years and really serve to enhance trust in Christ centered churches and ministries.

So we work with about 2,700 churches and ministries throughout the United States on stewardship and integrity and being above reproach.

We have seven standards that we hold all members accountable to.

We serve them through resourcing, through the annual accreditation process and.

And we even do things on Capitol Hill that benefit not just ECFA members, but really serve to prot.

Churches and ministries from a governmental standpoint as well.

Very, very cool.

So I, I'm not very, I'm not too far from you.

I grew up in a town called Wally Ford, West Virginia, which is about an hour and 15 minutes from Winchester, Virginia.

So.

Okay.

Beautiful place and, and similar to my neck of the woods.

So Jake, got a few questions for you.

When in that session it was impactful to me that ECFA is focusing on healthy leaders.

So how have you seen healthy leaders impact organizational trust?

Yeah, you know, I think when, when healthy, when leaders are healthy, it also creates healthy staff.

So as the organization and the staff serve those that they come into contact with, it just builds that culture of trust in an organization.

And so I believe healthy leadership, healthy governance, you could even go a step up right.

As healthy governance drives healthy ministry.

When, when people think of, of your organization and the public, I mean it's all about maintaining that.

Level of integrity.

So when people think of you, they're thinking of you as an organization that can be trusted.

When a leader is not healthy or when a leader fails, as much as we don't, as much as maybe the ministry had nothing to do with the ministry itself, that leader was tied to the ministry and so it hurts trust in the min.

I mean we see it in churches all the time with and other organizations that, that healthy leader dynamic, when there's an unhealthy leader, it's impacts the entire organization.

Wow.

I just thought it was interesting, you know, I think, and I was thinking financial accountability and it's, and then this focus on leader health, it was, it was very, very, very interesting to me.

One of the other questions I had for you is ECFA shares that boards can support leaders from the flames of protect leaders and support them from the flames of the evil one.

What do you, what does ECFA mean by that?

Yeah, well, I think when we think the flames of the evil one, I think it's just the, the attacks that we know the enemy has.

Right.

I mean the more that, I mean I'm convinced, I'll speak for myself a little bit as, as a Christian.

The devil knows where he can, where he can attack.

Right.

He's, he's, he knows the enemy is active.

And so just through those little things of pride, for instance, that's a flaming arrow.

I mean I don't think we really define what those flaming arrows are.

It kind of be anything and it's, and I think it's different for each person as well.

And it could be money, it could be financial related.

You know we talked about that, you mentioned that before.

But I think it's just boards can help leaders be aware of where the enemy could attack and help start putting in practices to where we did.

We, we hopefully won't see some of those massive integrity failures.

We know we're not going to stop them.

Like I just want to be upfront about that.

Like on this side of heaven, we will not stop integrity failures.

It's not possible.

But, but I think by having people in your life that can help make you aware.

Yeah.

Of where you could be attacked is a big step forward.

Yeah, for sure, for sure.

And as you said for the.

We want to, we want to see the church go forward and in Each and every time there's one of those public failures, they are, and, and a, of times they're predictable.

You know, I mean, and, and there's a maxim, you know, if it's predictable, it's preventable.

And this idea that if things are predictable and we know how the enemy attacks, you know, what can we do to prevent them?

And I appreciate that about what ECFA is doing to help strengthen leaders in the proclamation of the gospel.

One of the other things I found interesting was the seven questions that boards can ask leaders to help them care for the leader.

So the focus of a board caring for leaders so the leaders can be health.

And that is a, maybe a new concept for some of this idea of the board not just holding them accountable for the finances and decision making, but also the care and the stewardship of that leader.

What would some of those questions be and the importance of them?

Yeah, well, I don't have that exact 7 document in front of me, so I kind of, I guess go off my hip here.

I would say we, those seven questions, we were very cautious as we, you know, we want to approach resourcing in a way that helps organizations know where to at least start.

Yeah, we've been careful with the new standard.

It's not prescriptive.

So these seven questions, you may not ever need to address them from your organization.

We're not saying that these are seven questions you need to ask your leader.

We want organizations to customize their process according to the leader and the board dynamic.

So as we thought through these questions and Aaron, I may have you read a couple of them if you don't mind.

But I mean I think mainly these were questions that at least opened the door for deeper conversation of like, hey, if you've never, I mean they're meant to be a starting point.

If you've never had these types of discussions, here's some sample questions that you potentially can use to open that door a little bit.

You know, we're not saying if you're concerned your leader has a financial problem, you wouldn't just jump in and start asking a bunch of detailed questions that wouldn't be appropriate.

But these questions were more high level.

I think if I remember right, there's one around even like life balance of like how your family is doing and areas like that.

Here they are.

And I pulled them up so I didn't have them memorized either.

So that's the reality.

So the first one was what are your biggest prayers right now and how can we join in prayer for you?

I Thought that was powerful that you know, I have a board Christian organization, but also praying for the leader.

And I'll have you.

You can comment on one or two of these.

So I'll read all seven of them.

You can jump in on ones that resonate with you.

What has God been teach you during your worship or devotional times?

How can we help you have margin in your schedule for health checkups?

How are we doing honoring your time at home, if applicable.

What do your spouse and kids think about your time at home?

What did you do with your vacation days this year?

What is your favorite third place?

Third place is a spot for community outside the home and outside the church or workplace.

And the last one was, if we were to help make a way for you to experience a spiritual retreat this year, what would be the few of your top choices?

So any one of one or two of those you would want to jump on or even the.

The premise of those seven questions.

I thought they were very powerful.

Yeah.

Powerful questions and can give boards some guidance on.

On how to ask them.

Yeah.

You know, the premise of those questions were, number one is it starts to break down those barriers.

The board is opening up a door for a leader to actually share, actually say, like that question for instance, of how are we doing and honoring your time at home.

Yeah.

For most pastors or leaders or ministries are probably listening.

Like, my board doesn't care.

It appears that they don't care.

They're bothering me all times of night.

I'm expected to do all these things, but by opening up and asking the door, opening the door.

And it may take asking this question three or four times before you finally get to.

Yeah.

An honest, transparent discussion.

Because it's, you know, like, why are you asking that?

Like, I'm afraid to share what I really think.

And so it may take a little while to build some of that trust.

But that's a question that actually it's not.

It's not accusatory to the leader.

So many times when you look at like evaluations, it's everything is focused on the leader.

This is almost an evaluation back to the board where the leader gets to evaluate the board and how they're doing in their role in caring for him as him or her as the leader.

So I think that's, I love that question because it, in a sense it's, it's like, well, hey, here's how you can develop board.

Yeah.

To serve me better in this question.

So I would say for boards that are, you know, and as boards ask these questions it's important for them to be receptive to the listening.

Yeah.

If a top leader responds in a way that's like, well, you guys bother me all the time.

Yeah, the board needs to hear that, not get defensive with it.

Like, the board is going to have to extend the level of grace as well because the goal is that is that hard discussions can happen because of this discussions maybe that never happened before that, that don't make a top leader feel like their job's at risk, but really makes a top leader feel like, wow, my board cares.

They want me to be healthy.

They know like if I come to them and say my wife and kids, like they would, they're.

They're not happy with the amount of time that I'm investing in the ministry and, and not being at home with them like that, it starts to open up those doors.

We've seen organizations even take some of those questions, specifically that one of and involve a spouse into this conversation where it's like, we want to ask some questions of the spouse.

How's the spouse doing with you in your role and not just limiting it to the top leader.

It's good and I appreciated them.

They're very well and as you said, they're not prescriptive.

It's not like every board meeting you're gonna start with these seven questions.

But I do think they even for one on one board members to be able to ask questions one on one and have some, some solid questions asked that open, you know, inquiry into how somebody's doing and give them an opportunity to share and one of the other ones, then we'll move on.

Was I thought was powerful, just this idea margin in your schedule for health checkups.

And that's an intentional question.

Right.

You know, how are you doing mentally, how you doing physically, how you doing emotionally?

And is there margin enough to do that?

And making the time and space for, for leaders, pastors, CEOs, to be able to, to be healthy and for the board to demonstrate that.

So yeah, that's perfect.

And I'll just add something, Aaron, to that is, is.

I mean, I'm not aware of a study out there on this, but I just know in some of our conversations that we've had with members and even non members, like we've talked to leaders that have not had a physical or a doctor's checkup in 10, 15, 20 years.

Like they haven't went to the doctor, which I don't know.

I mean, I don't know where you sit there.

I try to make my yearly Appointment to go in like go in and do.

Do what I need to do.

And that was like kind of like a gut check for me of like wow.

Like I didn't.

Whether I'm just ignorant to it or what.

Yeah.

And it wasn't because I didn't want to.

It's just like I don't feel like I have time.

I don't, I don't have time to find a doctor.

I don't have time to go make this appointment.

I don't, I can't keep an appointment because everything else is happening.

So that's a big one.

That to me that health, both physical and mental health is a big deal that boards need to be aware of.

Yeah.

And for them asking the question also I think demonstrates and normalizes that, that they value it and they would value, you know, if the leader.

The leader can do it too.

When it comes to burnout, obviously at ECFA you're working with organizations to be healthy.

Any signs that you've noticed that people can be maybe aware of that a leader starting to burn out.

Yeah, that's, that's a great one.

Yeah.

We actually published a resource out there on kind of five signs of burnout.

That was one that kind of how to identify burnout in a leader.

And it's as I say, these resources are all available on ecsb.org leadercare like I encourage people we have a few refree resources the whole standards out there.

I'll just quickly go through them the f. Like we have declining mo, declining motivation, declining productivity, emotional exhaustion, physical exhaustion and just cynicism, unhealthy cynicism.

Like there is a healthy level of cynicism for some leaders.

But I think some signs like if I was to think of of a few signs.

I think when you start seeing a leader.

Just seem tired or slightly disconnected in a meeting where maybe six months ago they would have been very alert and involved that, that, that would be a sign of potential burnout.

Like what's going on.

I mean maybe it's just that they're not sleeping well.

But what's causing not sleeping well.

Right.

Like there's be something there.

Maybe it's nothing work related, maybe it's something else.

But it's still important for a board to understand that.

And then I think too just simple things of I think something you can have staff even look out for I would say is just this.

When you start seeing a leader be a little bit more.

Short, direct.

That doesn't fit who they are.

Is, is are things to be looking out for like something is, is causing them to be a little shorter or a little more direct.

This just not their style.

And the people that are going to see that most are the people that they work with.

And so even I, I love the idea of on these morning signs of leader burnout is, is, is don't ignore the staff that report to that top leader.

They may have some important insight into like how is the leader doing like they should.

They may be critical part of that conversation as well.

Not from an attacking standpoint but just from a health standpoint of like we want to make sure that they're leading well.

Yeah.

Is there anything you're noticing?

Yeah, you know, and then just, I think just a lot of it is the energy piece that they bring in.

I mean if you have a leader that's like fired up every day they come in that just loves to be there, has all this motivation and then all of a sudden you start seeing it of like they kind of come in, spend more time in isolation in their office or maybe not involved in certain conversations as they used to be.

Like all of those signs.

Point to burnout or potential burnout.

They don't point to.

There's no science behind it, but I think there's.

That points to potential burnout for a leader.

Because we have to realize too, a leader may not be burning out from work.

They may be burning out from something in their own life that they're dealing with like a child or something or a parent or a relationship that they're struggling with.

So it's not always work related.

But.

These are the signs that aren't easy to, to point out either.

Yeah.

Because they, they may happen so slowly.

It's not, you know, leader doesn't just one day come in and is completely burnt out like the day before, like fully on and next day like lights are off type thing.

Yeah.

It's, it's slow and we don't necessarily.

We start accept, we start accepting those actions.

Right.

That may be a difference.

We start accepting that they're just a little short, you know, they're just a little more direct now.

That's just.

They changed their leadership style and it's like eh, probably not.

Probably something behind that.

So one of the valuable tools you, you gave us was a leader care plan.

And, and I think obviously that's to help prevent burnout.

Right.

That's a care plan that's in place, a proactive way to do that.

And you, you know, you gave, it's a, it's presented phenomenally well you know, title is creating your leader care plan.

Can you just share a little bit about that?

Maybe the heart behind a desire to put a tool into leaders hands.

That's yeah, phenomenally done.

Yeah, it's this document right here.

That's it.

That's it.

It's available on our website as well.

So this document really I'll give a lot of, I need to give a lot of credit to, to Soul Care, the organization called Soul Care.

Mindy Caliguire and her team really helped develop a lot of these principles.

And Mindy's been invaluable part of this process with us and to a point of saying we need to create something that allows a leader to start the process.

And so a lot of this her team kind of put together and we, we kind of, we, we didn't steal it since we co produced it with.

But the whole idea behind it was how, how I kind of consider it is and I want to be clear like this, this little document here does not necessarily mean you're complying with the standard.

Right, the new ECFA leader care standard.

But what this document does is it starts the process for leaders that like man, I don't even, I've never even done this before.

Like how do I even start in thinking about a leader care plan?

This, this little like 5 page document is meant to serve as that guide.

So yeah, I would say invest about.

I think what we're Saying is like 60 minutes.

Yeah.

Into this document.

It's only five pages.

I'm looking over it as we go.

But really, I mean our desire is that we invite you in and that the Spirit invites you in.

We're inviting you into the presence of the Spirit.

Like inviting, you need to invite God into this time, this 60 minutes and, and spend time.

We say it as this.

We say speaking with God directly, like asking those bold questions like man, God, where is it that you want me to focus?

Like where are those areas of my life that, that need care?

And then you know, you keep going through the document.

We've identified it down into spiritual, relational, mental, physical, financial and vocational kind of five areas.

We have some posing questions out there and it's really just for, for leaders to go through and, and ask a simple question.

Like we talked about the mental, physical health.

It could be what concerns have family members or friends raised to me about my mental or physical health.

It's a good question.

You know, like if you have high blood pressure and everyone's been telling you you have high blood pressure and you're Doing nothing about it.

Maybe it's time to actually listen to that and appointment and what is it?

So it's kind of like how.

And then on the next page it's like, what's my current reality?

Yeah.

What's my desire?

And then what am I going to do to fill the gap?

So it's practical to kind of identify.

And we're not saying you have to find something in each of those areas, but it at least allows you to start.

Allows a leader to start thinking about those five areas of their life and inviting God to speak into them.

Inviting others to speak into them as well.

Yeah.

And coming up with.

With maybe just two or three things as I say it of like don't over complicate this.

It.

You know, I think it's, you know, kiss right.

Keep it simple.

Stupid.

Like that's, you know, we have this idea of even in the standard.

We have like 10 recommendations.

10 ways to potentially things that a leader can.

Can do.

Don't, don't, don't do all 10.

That's not what we're saying.

They're just ideas.

I've been encouraging members of like grow into it a little bit.

Like maybe it's just one thing.

Year one.

I always have.

I've used the examp a physical of like maybe it's this year I'm gonna go get a physical.

Yeah, that's what I'm gonna do.

Sure.

Or this year I'm gonna go and I'm gonna.

This year I want to be home.

This not for local churches but for like a missions organization of like a top leader may.

May be saying, hey, I want to be home more Sundays in my home church this year than speaking away from my home church.

Like, I want to invest in my community and I want my community to invest in me.

So those are simple things.

Could just be that for year one and then maybe next year it's like another thing is grow into what becomes more of just a regular rhythm.

Yeah.

No, I love it.

I love it.

You know, the other thing, obviously ecfa you think of finance, finances.

But two of the questions you have there are do I have a firm understanding of what my enough is in this season of life?

That's.

That's a very good one.

And then what is my plan if there's a financial shortfall or windfall?

And I, as you said, I love the.

That the way it's set up.

The first time I read it, it was 1, 3, 2.

I'm like, this is finances.

They should know.

1, 2, 3, but it I, I do love it's right the reality is step one desire is on the other side.

Step two and as you, you delineated the plan is step three in the middle of that gap it helps you get from reality to desire and as.

You said it's not a typo.

Good catch.

It's not a typo.

No it's not a typo.

It's good catch and I knew it wasn't a typo but it's, it's very well done and, and I appreciate it.

The other thing, I think this would be valuable too to sit down with a trusted friend or mentor and have them go over it with you too because my friend Roger says self assessment is often inaccurate and so and have somebody that you trust sit down and be able to look at it with you also can help maybe help some of those probing questions and to move through it.

So anyway great resource.

I love going getting resources like that.

Very well done.

Thank you for putting in leaders hands and very, very very very grateful for it.

So yeah and I mean Aaron, if it's okay I was just so out.

If anybody is looking for that even if you're not a member of ECFA they can email me directly@jakecfa.org I'd love to provide a copy of this document as a PDF to anybody that's, that's wanting it.

Sure we can.

I may have just opened myself up to a lot of emails.

We'll try, we'll put it, it shouldn't be, it shouldn't be 10 of them but I do think it's, it's such a blessing.

Quick 60 seconds and then I'm going to ask you to pray.

So this is a 60 second question before I ask you to pray.

How has your understanding of leader a leader changed over the last six eight years?

Wow.

That'S a great question.

My understanding, you know as a cpa I think we're naturally high achievers.

Okay.

And so and, and high responsibility and, and I think, I mean if you look at my five strengths I have them over them.

I think both of those words are in my top five and so realizing that I can still achieve and I can still be responsible without marking things off my to do list.

So as a leader there's an element of.

I need to be aware of my own weaknesses.

Yeah.

In order to protect myself but also to protect the team that I serve and to protect UCFA that I have the opportunity to, to work with Min amazing ministries and churches all over the United States.

But it's not a check the box task.

It's sometimes a call, may be 30 minutes, sometimes it may go to an hour, hour and a half.

And that's okay.

I don't always have to be achieving in what my old mind thought I was achieving.

Like, and I think that, I think biblically, that's also how God of, like, we can't underestimate what we're actually achieving in his kingdom.

Like, it's not a check the box.

As many.

You know, I got 17 things done today.

It may be that you only got one thing done, but yet that was the most important thing that God has for me, us for that day.

And so just understanding that as a leader, like, it's more important for me to be thinking about, like, what would God have me do today?

What.

What's the task that God's given me to do?

Not.

Not the tasks that I've given myself to do or, you know, kind of putting all of my goals aside in a sense.

Yeah.

Thing like, I want to do what God's called me to do.

Like, I. I'm a cpa.

I've been working on leader care.

Like, that wasn't necessarily my to do list when I came to ecfa, but at the same time time, I've seen the importance of it and I've seen how it's changed my own life and, and just events throughout the last year that I've walked through.

And it's like, man, if I didn't work for a place that actually took this seriously.

Yeah.

Not just from the top leader point, but across the board of saying we need healthy leaders because healthy leaders are critical to the success of organizations.

Yeah.

It'd be tough to know, like, I'd be on the burnout.

I'd be seeing all those signs of burnout, Right?

Sure, sure, sure.

Jake, it's been an honor to spend some time with you.

Will you pray for us today?

And let's help close the podcast out.

All right, great.

Thanks, Aaron.

Dear God, thank you for today.

Just thank you for the opportunity to connect here.

God, I pray that you would just be with the message that was shared.

God, I pray for those leaders.

And I pray, God, that you would just.

Make it clear that you desire to see them help healthy.

You desire to see leaders who are thriving in you, not just surviving in their roles, God, but truly thriving in.

In all areas of their life, God.

So I pray that you would just start helping break down some of those barriers.

I pray for relationships that may need healed.

God, I pray for any board members that may be listening that you would encourage them to start asking questions and start leaning into this idea of our leader may need us more than we realize.

It may be leading from a pulpit really, really well, but yet may need us to invest in them from a care perspective, God.

So I pray that you would just open those doors and encourage us.

We love you.

Again, just thank you so much for Aaron and this time.

Amen.

Amen.