A high priority at Converge is to provide church planters with an excellent level of coaching. Having someone who has planted a church walk along side someone learning the ropes is a big factor in a successful church plant. Lee Stephenson and Danny Parmelee discuss coaching, the value of it, how it’s more than just mentoring and what makes a good coach.

0:18 Lee introduces the conversation topic, which is coaching church planters.

0:58 Danny adds that Converge puts a strong emphasis on coaching church planters past just their first couple of years of planting.

1:46 Lee explains how Converge has taken coaching to a higher level within the mission of planting churches.

2:21 Lee asks Danny what he has seen with church planters that have coaches versus those who don’t.

2:29 Danny explains RevCoach, an online coaching system that helps both the coach and the coachee throughout their process together. 

3:00 Danny talks about the difference between a mentor and a coach.

3:31 Danny speaks to the fact that the coaches and church planters who do coaching correctly have great success.

4:38 Lee asks Danny what coaching has meant to him as a planter and pastor.

4:43 Danny says having a coach asking him lots of questions helped him clarify issues and problems.

6:00 Danny asks Lee to describe some successful and less-than-successful coaching he has received throughout his life and ministry.

6:13 Lee is a big believer in always having a coach and the importance those relationships have played in his life.

7:01 Lee emphasizes that a coach should bring out the best in a coachee, not trying to get them to do things the way that has worked for themselves. Coaching should be helping someone become all they can be in God; not molding someone in a forceful way.

7:52 Like in athletics, the “stars” don’t become the best coaches. Danny says coaching church planters is similar. 

9:08 Danny shares that he’s doing less coaching, because he tends to want to share his personal experiences and that’s not always what church planters need.

9:41 Danny states his passion for good coaching and creating it within Converge.

10:07 Lee asks Danny how a church planter should find a coach if they are beginning to realize how coaching could help them. How do you find the right coach and how do you ask?

10:30 Danny advises that if a church planter finds someone they may want as a coach, to ask around to get some opinions on their coaching.

11:30 Danny suggests doing a trial run for a few months with a coach.

11:51 Lee advises for someone to be persistent when looking for a coach, and it may cost money.

12:25 Lee shares that if someone asks him to be their coach, he wants specifics of what they’re looking for.

13:04 Lee feels a good coach will recognize their own personal strengths and weaknesses and the importance of knowing when they may not be the best coach in a certain area.

13:18 Lee encourages listeners to find a coach if they feel they need one.

Lee Stephenson: Welcome, everyone to the Unfiltered podcast. Lee Stephenson here - overseer of Church Planting for Converge.

Danny Parmelee: I'm Danny Parmelee. I oversee Church Planting for Converge MidAmerica.

Lee Stephenson: And today the conversation is geared around coaching. And this is one of the reasons... Like, I don't know about for you, but I joined the Converge network in the first place, was their commitment to coaching and helping pastors, planters get better. And I hadn't seen it, I don't think organized and executed at the level that I did in Phoenix, until I was introduced to the Converge guys and pastor and kind of their Lead Team, Vision Arizona group. And so very thankful for just the overall commitment around the country to help each other and help each other get better.

Danny Parmelee: Yeah, and I would add to that, that I think...And yes, we're totally biased being part of Converge. But we're continuing to do things that we want to lead the way in that. I think that we've seen just the power of coaching, the need for coaching. We've also seen it kind of wane. Even though there has been just an explosion of other church planting organizations. And praise God for that. That's awesome. There's other organizations. But there's a lot that haven't had their coaching to catch up with that. And there's a lot of church planters who are finding themselves at year two, three, and four, really struggling because they don't actually have a coach. They got some initial training, which is really great, but are really struggling. You know, because they don't have that coaching. So, it's an exciting time for us.

Lee Stephenson: It really, really is. And so that's why we've - even in the Converge family - like, we're creating a level of Converge coaching credentialing so that there's some level of quality. What does it actually mean to be a coach? Kind of a certification process. But then we've got record keeping. I mean, you've created this RevCoach, Danny, to kind of walk with people and help people facilitate those conversations in a way that's more efficient and meaningful. And then we're just - there's an overall commitment to getting better. What have you seen as, you know, a district regional guy overseeing Church Planting? Both planters that have coaches versus planters that don't have coaches? What are you seeing?

Danny Parmelee: Yeah. So, I think... Well, let me actually even just go back just a little bit. Because you had mentioned, you know, RevCoach. The system that we're kind of using to help facilitate it. That was designed because I've found that both personally, myself, and most church planters don't make the best coaches. So, and it really was - I needed to design this because I wasn't a good coach. I tended to be more of a mentor. And that's how I see a lot of... You know, people will say it's a coach. But it's like you call them if you have a problem. And that's really mentorship. Where what we're moving coaches towards is having a consistent monthly check in, walking through questions, and helping the church planter to actually self discover and to learn how to navigate through some of their issues. So it's not just content. Hey, follow this, you know, checklist. Follow these types of things. And that's really where I think the power of coaching is. And the coaches and church planters that are doing that are having tremendous success. They really are. It doesn't mean that everything is easy. But when you have that consistent thing, you're all sudden, as a church planter, discovering things that were even blindsided. You know, that they were blind spots for you. And because you have a coach that is taking initiative and asking you some questions, you're going, "Oh, my goodness, I never thought about that before." And it's like, yes, that's the whole reason why we're having these monthly meetings and kind of, you know, walking through. Which what I have found is that a lot of church planters afterwards say, "I didn't know that that's what coaching was. I thought that a coach called me and gave me a task list of the next 10 things that I need to do, and then made sure I did it. And if I didn't, I got a spanking or whatever."

Lee Stephenson: Yeah. I mean, for you personally, as a planter, pastor... I mean, now you're in a, you know, executive role within the district. What has coaching meant to you? And how has it helped you become who you are at this point in your life?

Danny Parmelee: Yeah. So, I think it goes especially to just those blind spot areas where you have someone who's asking you some different questions. And then some follow up questions to dig a little bit deeper. Because there's some times where I think this is what the issue is, and I've had coaches in my life who had been able to point out. Where I'm like, "Hey, here's my issue, tell me how to solve it." And they start asking me a few different questions in there. And I realized, oh, that actually wasn't the issue. The issue was something totally different. If they just would have came and said, "Oh, you know..." Like, I thought, oh, I have a staffing issue. I have an issue with this staff person. How do I solve it? And they could have said, "Okay, well, what you need to do is put a performance plan together and da da da da da." But instead, they start to ask some different questions to actually coach me through and to realize that the issue wasn't so much that that person could or couldn't, you know, perform the task. And so, for me personally, those are the types of like aha moments, that when a church planter is able to see that it's the lifelong change that happens. Because they now have a completely different perspective and filter to help even dig things out and to discover things. So how about you? And I would say this. Well, actually let me throw it to you. Maybe if you could describe some good coaching that you've had. And then if you have, without saying any names, any coaching that didn't work so well, and why it didn't work?

Lee Stephenson: Yeah. I looked through my experiences growing up. And I really got a coach, a ministry coach, probably by the time I was about 20 or 21 years old. And in ministry, and ever since then kind of tried to keep somebody in my corner. Sometimes it's been multiple people that coached very specific areas. And I wouldn't be where I am today if it wasn't for those people in my life. And so I'm a big believer in you need a coach. I think you should always have a coach that's working with you and kind of guiding you. Because again, like you pointed out, they see things that you wouldn't see yourself. And truly a real good coach is not interested in multiplying themselves in you. They're not. But they're really hoping that you become all that God intended you to be. And I think that needs to be very specific. And I think that's, to me, the difference between the coaches I've had that have been really good, and the coaches that have been poor, is that the good coaches were trying to see who I am, and understand why I do what I do. And how to bring the best out of me. Versus molding me to be somebody that I wasn't. And the coaches that I've had issues with were trying to force me, you know, a round peg into a square hole type of thing. It just didn't, it didn't work.

Danny Parmelee: And if we look even at, you know, professional athletics. It's not the stars who become the best coaches. And that's what I think a lot of church planters think, "Oh, if I find the person who has done the greatest thing, they will be the greatest coach for me." And I have found that to be the reverse. So not even is it not true, but the reverse. There's those that just plotted the course, did a great job. And they are the best coaches because of exactly what you said. They're trying to draw out what God has placed on that planters heart, help to draw out teach him things. Instead of just tell me what you did to become fruitful or to become successful. Because honestly, it's probably not going to be the same thing. And so, to just copycat what someone else did, and especially if all the sudden they're trying to just force that. And like I said, even after I would say is deficiency of my own coaching, I'm not as natural of asking questions. I'd love to share my experience. And so, I'm much better...

Lee Stephenson: You should just do what I tell you to do.

Lee Stephenson: Well, at least you know your limitations, Danny.

Danny Parmelee: Yes. Yes, I do. I do. So, but the unique thing is that I'm passionate about coaching. And so, part of it again is that you know, realizing, hey, maybe it's deficient in me. But there's other people that are super gifted. And so how can we... And that's part of you know creating that within our movement to say, hey, coaching is important. So how can we make the best coaches possible?

Lee Stephenson: What would you recommend to a church planter that maybe they're out there, they've been pushing hard for a couple years. They're not seeing the breakthroughs that they want. And maybe they listen to this and they kind of go, I need a coach.

Danny Parmelee: Yes.

Lee Stephenson: What do they do? Like, how do you move forward in finding the right coach? And how do you go about asking?

Danny Parmelee: Yep, very easy. Email Lee dot Stephenson at Converge. So again. Maybe the "what not to do" is to think, "Find the superstar who's also now offering their services at a very high price and just buck up and pay it." I'm not saying you shouldn't pay good money for a good coach. But you should really ask around if that person is a good coach. And don't think just because they have a successful church or church plant that you should pay for that. Even know I was kind of joking. I don't know, if we have resources to try to help connect coaches, if you're not part of Converge. Well, you know, again, we're going to be pretty biased in that. And say, well just join Converge and we'll help connect you up with some coaching. Because we do have that as part of our culture. But I do think kind of, you know, ask around. If that coach has coached someone else, and to kind of see. And then, like anything else, you can do some sort of trial run. You'll be able to tell within three to six months if this, you know, person is helping you or not. And sometimes it takes a little while just to kind of get to know one another. Especially if you're just doing once a month. Three to six sessions, you should know as this person driving you forward? Is it helpful, or is it not?

Lee Stephenson: Yeah. And I liken it this way - when you recognize somebody that's out there that you sit there and kind of go man, I think they would be a great coach. And you hear it, like, chase them until they catch you. Like be persistent. Persevere. Figure it out. And some of your great coaches, they are going to charge. And it's not going to be cheap. But I found it worthwhile to have some of those people in my corner and commit to maybe a six month relationship or even a 12 month relationship. And one of the questions I always ask people too... Like, if they approach me and go, "Hey, would you coach me?" I always ask them, "In what?" Like, I want you to be specific as to what you actually are looking for coaching in your life - centered around. And I tend not to always accept people, if they just kind of generic, "Well, I just need a coach." I need to know very specific areas. What area are you looking to grow in? Before I commit to that. And I might not be the right person. And so if it's like, "Man, I really feel like I want to grow in understanding marketing." Well, I'm going to say, "Danny's gonna be better for you than me." You know. And so. And I think a good coach will recognize that as well. Like they'll recognize, you know, my deficiencies. And hey, it's better. Let me bring this person into that conversation versus trying to be all things to all people.

Danny Parmelee: Yeah, that's great. That's great.

Lee Stephenson: Well, if you need a coach, go after it. Feel free to reach out. We'll help you as much as we possibly can as well. And but again, until next time, everyone, keep it real.