Poornima Subramanian, Princess Cruises, Sr. Digital Accessibility SME

Poornima talks about learning on the job about disabilities and getting started as a tester with assistive technologies. She moved into the role of subject matter expert and assisted developers to understand what was relevant to their role. Her work at Holland America merges digital accessibility with a user experience that takes place in the physical world of a cruise. 

Mentioned in this episode:

Info about Accessibility at Blink

(dramatic music)

- Hello, this is Digital Accessibility,

the people behind the progress.

I'm Joe Welinske, the creator and host of this series,

and as an accessibility professional myself,

I find it very interesting as to how others

have found their way into this profession.

So let's meet one of those people right now,

and hear about their journey.

Well, hello again. I'm Joe Welinske,

and here we are for another episode

where I get to meet an accessibility practitioner,

and today I'm pleased to be

chatting with Poornima Subramanian.

Hello, Poornima. How are you doing today?

- Hello, Joe. I'm doing good, thanks for asking.

How are you doing?

- Yeah, I'm pretty good.

It's kind of a rainy week at my

home office on Vashon Island,

which is near the Blink headquarters

in Seattle, Washington.

Where are you talking to us from?

- So I'm here, I'm living here in Concord, North Carolina.

So the weather is like, you know,

both cold and sunny, but yeah,

not pretty bad though for the winter.

(laughs quickly)

- Well, a good place to start is if you could just

tell us a little bit about your current position,

the types of things that you're responsible for.

- Yeah, sure. So I'm a Digital Accessibility SME,

so I'm the subject matter expert on

digital accessibility you know, in my current company

at Holland America group.

So it is a travel industry where I actually,

like, you know, represent the accessibility Compliance

and also for the accessibility, you know,

experience for all of our, you know, Holland America

cruise digital websites that includes princess cruises,

Holland America line, and Seabourn cruise brands.

So, yeah, I'm like, you know, my role is more of like,

you know, being a accessibility point of contact

and the subject matter experts to work

with the various teams, you know,

that includes design team, development team

and also the vendors who are actually like,

you know, hosting content in our brand websites,

you know, to, you know, to educate and also like,

you know, to ensure that, you know, that the,

the end product is accessible and, you know,

meeting all the guidelines, which is like, you know,

the core basic of the accessibility compliance.

So apart from the compliance, like, you know,

talking about from the user experience, like, you know,

it is very important for our customers, you know, for

you know, for each one of our customers,

I would just like, you know, like to insist that like,

you know, they, they like, you know, whomever, you know,

accessing our brand website, you know, they, they,

they wanted to feel that like, you know, they are being,

you know, inclusive, like, you know,

they feel that like, you know, yeah,

this website is like, you know, for us,

I can do anything, you know, online,

you know, including, you know, that you can start from,

you know, booking for a cruise or else, like, you know,

I mean, access your boarding pause.

And when you are all set to like, you know,

sailing the cruise, make sure that like, you know,

you have your, you know, application on the website

and your login, you know, already and, you know,

and make sure that websites all accessible for

everyone.

So there are people who are having color blindness,

you know, that people who may have, like, you know,

you know, who may, who may be using the screen readers and,

you know, the people like, you know, who are like, you know,

I mean, in, in, in the aging category, like, you know,

who are like, you know, I mean,

I would like to call it like, you know,

60 years and older, like, you know,

they may have like, you know, various,

you know, forms of like, you know, disabilities,

but you know, that, that does,

that's not gonna stop anyone like, you know,

to access the web.

So that is what, like, you know, I am here in my company,

I'm in the position that, you know,

to make sure that our digital products are accessible to

everyone.

- Well, one of the things that I like to do

is find out the journeys that brought people

to the work that they do today. So if we go back in time,

what would be one of the first places that you became aware

of accessibility in, in,

in started thinking about being involved with that?

- Yeah. So talking about my, I mean, I'm, I'm like,

you know, I mean, going back, I think before 10 years,

I would say like, you know, I,

I stepped onto this digital accessibility space in,

I would say, like in, in 2007 where I joined, you know, in,

in a center of excellence team, in my XX company, in the,

the company named Cognizant. So they have actually like,

you know, they have been, they have been like, you know,

creating a new team that's called Nonfunctional Center of

Excellence. So that includes various types of services,

like security, web security,

and then accessibility performance and

and disaster recovery, and, you know, the,

the other names as well. But, you know,

somehow I chose to be the part of digital accessible team,

but to be harnessed, like, you know,

I was a total newbie who was wondering like, you know,

whether people with disabilities can even access a web.

So that was like, you know, back in, you know, 12 years,

I say 2007.

So I started learning about different types of disabilities

and, you know, how people are, you know, really using,

you know, the web, how, how they can use a app.

Like, you know, that was, that was the question on my mind.

And like, you know, I started exploring on that and,

you know, learned about the, the, you know,

the accessibility guidelines and bylaws that they were,

you know, available in, in, in the,

in the digital space, to make sure that, you know,

they could satisfy that.

And, and also like, you know, the facts about like,

you know, the assisting technologies that, you know,

people are using to, you know, communicate with the,

with the computer. Right.

That is, that is one thing that was,

that was the biggest challenge when I started like,

you know, to learn about the assisting technologies,

how does that work?

And, you know,

how do we actually test it with our products to see,

you know, because, you know, bringing in the,

bringing in the real user experience is not quite easy.

So, you know, learning about the technologies,

but yeah, I mean, I think I, I tried my best to

learn about assisted technologies at that time.

So, and then, you know, my learning was like a,

like an incremental learning process where, you know,

I, you know, I, I met a person actually

in one of my previous company, like,

you know, client, client place, where the person is like,

you know, is, is in a wheelchair who was

actually using the web.

So he was actually like, you know,

talking about his experience of, you know, you know,

how he interacts with the web.

So that, that makes me like, you know, really, you know,

surprising, and also at the same time, like, you know, yeah.

I mean, it can be done, right.

So that's, that's the part, like, you know,

where I came into when I decided that like, okay,

I'm not leaving, this is still accessibility space

because whatever work I do, like, you know,

I always feel passionate about it.

And also like, you know,

that makes me feel good in a good cast. Right.

You know, so, so it started from there.

And then I moved on, to like, you know, the banking.

- Let me just jump in and stop you there

for a minute. So what type of work were you

doing at that time, are you able to talk about

your position or, you know, what you were

being employed for when you first started,

getting involved with that.

- Sure. I was, I was, I was actually, I,

I was starting as an accessibility tester where like,

you know, I was employed like, you know,

to do most of the testing services.

So that means like, you know, you need to

understand about the, you know, the testing guidelines

and also the, like, you know,

the testing with us is to technologies.

So those two things like, you know, are where like,

you know, where I started my accessibility career.

And then like, you know, when, when,

when it comes to the screen data, like, you know,

when I turned on just like, you know, it used to talk

and I, I'm not quite sure, like, you know, how, okay,

should I use tab and just the enter in the space bar,

but then like, you know, I realized there are like,

you know, I mean, various keyboard shortcuts

that are available for the users

that access a quick navigation mechanism for

people who are blind, like, you know,

to interact with the, with the web.

That was, that was quite amazing.

Like, you know, to learn about the screen view.

And then it's, it's, and also like, you know,

it's a fact that, you know, I always wanted

to say to anyone like, you know,

whom or I work with. So when we say accessible,

it's not just about screen reading.

So there are many other like, you know,

C street technologies. And also that, like, you know,

the operating system settings that people use in their day

to day life when they actually communicate with the web.

So that's one thing. So when we say like, you know, I mean,

just, you know, it's not,

when we say it's not just about the screen user,

like, you know, about the zooming, like, you know,

we need to make sure that, like, you know,

that people who are having low vision, they can, you know,

access the web. I can, you know, even,

even as a normal person, I used to like, you know,

prefer just zoom and see whether I can like, you know,

see the content clearly. Right.

So that's one thing. And then, you know, people who,

who cannot use a mouse and, you know, who actually like,

you know, prefer to work with a keyboard

and they have like, you know, I mean,

keyboard set up in a way that, you know,

they could access.

So those are all also like, you know, considered into that.

So it was, it was quite a time like, you know, it was,

it actually took me, you know,

a good amount of time to learn about different kinds of,

you know, disabilities that, you know,

this digital accessibility focusing on and, you know,

how it actually like, you know,

impacts readers lives and to see like, you know, in,

in their day to day lives. Right.

Of accessing web, because accessing web, it's not just like,

you know, I mean, it's now becoming,

it's now becoming in our like, you know, like,

like cool thing. Right.

And especially, you know, when, for people who are,

you know, in the, in the aging category, like, you know,

they, they prefer to do their work where they are, right.

In setting them where they are. So that, that is,

that is one other thing, like, you know,

that we could think of.

- Well, getting started as a tester.

I think for a lot of people coming into accessibility

is a great place to start because you're, you know,

you're working with the assistant technologies as,

as you said. And so, you're, you're understanding, you know,

what the challenges are.

You mentioned that,

that you started working as a subject matter expert.

So how do you define that? And, you know,

what changed about your role as you started doing that type

of work?

- Yeah, sure.

So as, as like, you know, as I said, like, you know,

I started as a tester and then, you know,

when I actually joined a new company, which is,

which is a banking industry, so where I, you know,

started learning about the strategies, like, you know,

of how to implement the accessibility, right.

Best practices. So it doesn't like, you know, I was,

I was understanding like, you know, it's more of like,

you know, my understanding was like, you know, just to like,

you know, test it with this assistant technologies

and see if it passes the guidelines, but it's not.

So when it comes like, you know, the,

to the strategies that actually implement some,

the digital accessibility, like, you know,

to make sure the product is accessible,

it actually starts in the design phase.

So the design phase is one of the core phase, I would say,

like, you know, the best practices, it's not,

it's not the long list that they have, but still like,

you know, it makes a lot of difference when you, you know,

have the accessibility best practices integrated in a design

state. So that's where I started, like, you know,

working with the design teams to understand like, you know,

how, how we can make little things, like, you know,

you know, I mean, delivered in an accessible way, like,

you know, showing that in accessible way

that actually made a lot of difference.

For an example. Like, you know,

when you have just, just, you know, just small example,

I just would like to say, when you have like, you know,

say you have a section called a personal information where

you fill out the form and, you know, you have,

you have labels. Right.

So in, in one of my, in one of the forms that, you know,

our design team were designing that they were actually

giving out as a placeholders, but, you know, when I,

when it start typing in like, you know,

I'm not seeing the label anymore because, you know,

there are, there are two different date categories.

Like, you know, one is the birth date and one is like,

you know, you were passport expire date.

And it's like, you know, I'm, I'm,

I'm little confused to understand, okay.

Okay. Which is my birthday and which is my, it is like,

you know, it's little, it's, it's little, like, you know,

it's not giving me a clue of like, you know, so that's,

that's where, like, you know, we need to like, you know,

start addressing in the design stage itself to make sure

that like, you know, we are having the visual labels.

So this is just one of the examples where we could actually

start addressing them to, to best point out that, you know,

design stage is the, like, you know, is a core phase of,

you know, integrating accessibility into

additional products and, and that's where it starts,

and then, you know, moving on from design to development,

we actually like, you know, instead of like, you know,

testing the products after developing, I, I, you know,

I love to like, you know,

educate the developers about what needs to be done and what

are the accessibility guidelines and you know,

why it is needed. Right.

So these three things like, you know, I always like,

you know, I mean, like to conduct as a workshop, you know,

I'm, I'm never tired of like, you know, I mean,

talking about this with my developers, like, you know,

so once they get to the understanding of, you know,

why it is needed, then there will be no question of like,

you know, how I can address it. Right.

So there are different frameworks, like, you know,

we have the audio frameworks that needs to be integrated in

the development, which may or may not be, you know,

by the development team yet. Like, you know, you,

you feel like, you know, if you're ready to like, you know,

as an accessibility SME or specialist, or, you know,

based on your role in the accessibility team,

and, you know, you're ready to explain to the developer,

like, you know, in just in, just in a wise form,

just say that, you know,

why it is needed, you know, how,

how the screen leader works. Right.

And how they're like, you know,

what is expected in the zooming and what is expected in the

speech recognition. Right.

And what is, what do I need from the keyboard point of view?

So those factors, like, you know, I,

I try to explain to them and make sure that, like, you know,

at least they understand to the extent that you know,

why they're doing that. So that actually, you know,

helped me a lot in, in my,

in my projects that I have done to, you know, bring out,

you know, a good accessible product.

Like, you know, I would say, to a good extent.

So after that, like, you know, of course the testing phase,

so the testing phase, like, you know,

where you would actually do the testing to make sure,

like, you know, that the product is accessible.

And also, and when we talk about the testing,

the different kinds, like, you know,

where you do the automation testing and the manual testing.

So as this is, as accessibility is like a human interpreted,

no, a framework like, you know,

the automation tool is not going to like, you know,

do all the work for you.

So it's like, you know, the automation,

one leak covers like, you know, some 40, you know,

30 to 40 percentage of testing the markup of the brand

sites, right. The website.

But, you know, the manual testing is what, like, you know,

going to give you, you know, a good idea of saying that,

Hey, if this product is going to be accessible

to the end users or not. Right.

So that is what important here. So, and then like, you know,

doing the manual testing and then, you know, to like,

you know, after, once it is done, like, you know,

to see that yeah, yeah.

Like, you know, we are, we are like, you know,

getting the product accessible that, you know,

makes everyone's happy.

(quick laughter)

And also like, you know, of course to our,

to our customers, right.

Or to the, to the, in users who are using the websites,

you know, that's where like, you know, they are,

they are like, you know, feeling that, okay.

I mean, it's, it is, it is included.

Right. So that means like, you know, and,

and we are not using, you know, any,

any separate widgets or something to make it accessible.

Like, you know, and it's like a normal user, how, you know,

how, like, you know, I use with the screen reader, like,

you know, it's not, it's not making any difference for me,

so I can access the website as how the other user does.

So that, that is what, like, you know,

that difference is what, like, you know, I mean,

calling out and also like, you know, making me feel,

you know, to play my role as an accessible case specialist.

- Well, so you obviously, you know,

we have a wide spectrum of activities that you're

involved in, and that's always rewarding

to get involved in,

in the early stages with the design for the code is,

is in place.

You know, one of the things that I find interesting

about the type of service that you provide

is that your customers are not only

working with the, the digital part of the process,

but the whole point of it is I,

I assume to be involved in a physical activity of, of,

of travel. And so there's that whole part of it.

And so does that come into your design thought at all about

how the work that you're doing on the digital side merges

with the actual experience people have in taking a trip?

- Yeah. So I would like, you know, in,

in my current position, I can talk about like,

you know, when you have your digital,

like digital web, like, you know, accessible for an example,

I wanted to chat, or I know I,

I'm ready to book a cruise and, you know, say,

say there is a end user, like, you know,

there's a customer who are using the screen data and then,

you know, he know, decided to like, you know, taking,

booking a cruise to our cruise website and know if,

and also I wanted to chat about the, you know,

the cruise deals without actually like, you know,

visiting the, the cruise representing you, like, you know,

the office or the customer center where I actually like,

you know, all the agent itself where

I could get more details,

but then, you know, so the chat feature, like, you know,

that is available, you know,

a cruise website that makes the customer like, you know,

easy that they could like, you know, chat with the cruiser,

presenting you online and, you know,

ask about the questions that he has and then get,

get details about the, you know, the cruise deals and,

you know, once he finds that, yeah, it's all good, you know,

he can directly go and book it online so he can save the

trip, like, you know, visiting the, the, you know,

cruise agent and, you know, getting about the,

just to know about the cruise deals. Right.

So that's, that's one thing I find like, you know, where,

I mean, our, our, like, you know, the website, like,

you know, definitely helps people like, you know,

with disability, like, you know, who wants to like,

you know, save a trip to, you know,

by actually visiting the, now the, the office itself,

that's one thing. And also in, in the banking back to the,

you know, the banking industry where I worked for a bank,

you know, one, one example that I could find

is a mobile deposit. So that's a cool feature.

That's now available in the app itself where, you know,

once you have a check, like, you know, I wanted to okay.

Go and deposit it. Okay.

I have to like, you know,

go to the bank so that the banker can help me.

But that is like, you know, I, I can say like, you know,

in almost all the app,

now there is an option called mobile deposit. Right.

So you can actually make it work. Like, you know, it's,

it's pretty intuitive to, in a way that like, you know,

and even can do the mobile deposit.

And even with the screen data,

it announces all the instructions as it had to save that,

Hey, you know, place the check and, you know, turn,

turn on to this angle and then use the darker background.

So that gives a clear picture of like, you know, for,

for people, for the customers to deposit

the checks online. And, you know, that definitely like,

you know, saves trip to the,

to the, to visit the banker itself.

- Well, with your experience with accessibility,

you've probably seen a lot of things that are,

that have moved in a positive direction.

Maybe some things that haven't moved as quickly as you

thought they would,

as you look forward into the future,

what are some of the things that you're looking forward to

seeing in accessibility?

- Yeah. So in future, like, you know, I mean, I,

I would like to, like, you know, I mean,

see this digital accessible team grow and, you know, expand,

it's not just like, you know, in,

in the company that I work in. Right.

But, you know, I also like, you know, I mean, I'm,

I'm seeing, like, you know, there are, I mean, the, the,

the awareness about the digital accessibility,

it's coming out more and more,

and from different types of people and, you know,

who are working either in the physical or like, you know,

in the digital space.

So like, you know, they,

as they get to understand more like, you know,

they would actually like, you know, they, they,

they can implement that more. Right.

They can make it work so they can make a difference.

So that's the only thing. So I think in the future also,

I am, you know, I'm,

I'm planning to contribute more towards the workshops, like,

you know, to the, to the, to the webinars, like, you know,

mostly on educating things,

because that's a one part that like, you know,

I always love to do, so in respect of like, you know,

I mean, who was like, you know, working in which space then,

you know, it definitely like, you know, helped them.

And also like, you know, helps me to make me feel good.

Like, like, you know, I'm doing the right thing.

Right.

So that's the one thing like, you know, I wanted to do.

So, I mean, growing and also like, you know, I mean,

empowering, I would say, you know,

the digital accessibility, you know, you know, make it as a,

make it as a standard, make it as a default, like, you know,

we are not, we are not doing like, you know,

any bringing any kind of like, you know, I mean, magic here,

you know, to call accessibility as a separate thing.

No, it is an inclusive practice.

So we just wanted to like, you know, make that inclusive.

And, you know, I wanted to see that happen in my future.

And yeah, I will definitely like, you know, I mean,

contribute to my best in the digital accessibility space to

make that happen.

- Well, Poornima,

thank you so much for taking the time to share your journey

into accessibility. It's been a,

a great story to hear about the different activities that

you've been working on and look forward to meeting you