summary

In this episode of the Web Usability podcast, Lucy Collins speaks with Jon O'Donnell, a Senior Accessibility Specialist at the Department for Work and Pensions. They discuss Jon's personal journey into accessibility, the importance of document accessibility, common issues found in documents, and the need for a mindset shift regarding accessibility practices. Jon shares insights on the DWP's proactive approach to improving accessibility and the impact of assistive technologies like Dragon software on his work and life. The conversation emphasises the importance of making documents accessible to unlock the potential of individuals with disabilities and create a more inclusive society.

takeaways

• Jon's journey into accessibility began from personal experience.
• Document accessibility is often overlooked but crucial for inclusion.
• Accessibility should be seen as a standard practice, not an extra task.
• Good design benefits everyone, not just those with disabilities.
• DWP has invested in an accessibility team to improve practices.
• Training and awareness are key to improving document accessibility.
• Micro barriers can significantly impact productivity and self-worth.
• Assistive technologies can empower individuals with disabilities.
• Creating accessible documents is a matter of good practice and efficiency.
• Accessibility is essential for unlocking the potential of all individuals.

titles

• The Hidden Importance of Document Accessibility
• The Future of Accessibility in the Public Sector

Sound Bites

• "I realised how much of a barrier there was."
• "Documents often get overlooked in the accessibility space."
• "It's about communicating with your audience."

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Web Usability and Accessibility

01:09 John O'Donnell's Journey into Accessibility

03:56 The Importance of Document Accessibility

09:47 Common Accessibility Issues in Documents

15:14 Changing Mindsets Around Accessibility

20:04 DWP's Approach to Accessibility

25:08 Personal Experiences with Accessibility Tools

27:58 Unlocking Potential Through Accessibility

Ep8. Accessible documents with the Department of Work and Pensions- Transcript

Lucy Collins

Welcome to the Web Usability podcast, where we explore what it takes to make the web a more accessible and enjoyable place for everyone. Whether you're a website owner, developer, or just a curious mind, we're here to share insights, tips, and stories that can help you improve the user experience of your digital world. I'm Lucy Collins, Director of Web Usability and your guide on this journey to better usability. If you need a transcript of this podcast, just visit our website at www.webusability .co .uk.

Now, let's dive in!

Lucy Collins

On today's episode, I am delighted to be joined by John O'Donnell, Senior Accessibility Specialist at the Department for Work and Pensions. A civil servant for many years, John is passionate about inclusion, fair treatment and natural justice, and pushes the DWP to be better by driving inclusion by design in order to remove discrimination and unconscious bias. John is a specialist in document accessibility. We had the pleasure of working together on a fantastic e -learning that John had developed to help public bodies create better and more accessible word documents.

This is just the first in a series of e -learnings, I believe, that John is developing around document accessibility that will be available to some 600 ,000 public sector employees in the long run. But first to say a quick hello, John. Hi, how are you today?

Jon O'Donnell

Hello. Good afternoon, Lucy. Thank you for having me. Not at all. A real pleasure.

Lucy Collins

Thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today. So just to start off with, could you tell me a little bit about your journey into accessibility? How have you ended up working in this space?

Jon O'Donnell

Self -interest, perhaps, is probably the best way of describing it. I had a weird accident and I shrank with my son and I destroyed my left elbow joint and I had to go through a series of operations but I was left with a permanently deformed left elbow. I suddenly needed Dragon software and it wasn't until I realized how difficult it was to use documents and use other products with that software did I realize how much of a barrier there was to my colleagues throughout the department and throughout the civil service and throughout the world when it came to using documents with assistive software. So, my journey started there.

Lucy Collins

Yeah. Wow. Goodness. That must've been quite the shock. I mean, I knew ice skating was dangerous, but ouch, that sounds horrible.

Jon O'Donnell

It was just a silly accident. I just fell over, literally just bumped my elbow and I thought, well, I banged my funny bone, but I'd actually destroyed the end of the radius. So very weird. Ouch. That sounds very painful.

Lucy Collins

And you say now that you use Dragon's software, can you just for the benefit of the listener, explain what that is and how it helps you?

Jon O'Donnell

Yeah, very simply is voice recognition. So I can effectively speak what I see. I can navigate web pages, documents and other apps and so forth, just with voice commands. And what this does is it massively reduces the impact on my arms, which also have nerve damage and carpal tunnel. So the ability not to have to use the keyboard or only use the keyboard

the mouse very little really takes the wear and tear and the pain away from using a computer.

Lucy Collins

Brilliant. I'd like to explore a little bit more about your use of Dragon if you don't mind later on in the episode, but just to kind of continue trying to understand your journey into accessibility. you said, obviously it started from a place of self -interest, but you've very much ended up specialising in document accessibility. Is that correct?

Jon O'Donnell

It is. Yes. I started off just as a motivated amateur catching out the most obvious fails and working with my colleagues in various teams throughout my department, trying to improve the quality and the accessibility of these products. And also, just gradually began a gentle challenge around when new software or external third party software were being brought in and they hadn't been tested with accessibility software. And for me, the inability to navigate some key products that were part of my role really motivated me to start raising awareness and how I could focus people's attention around the need to be inclusive through using accessibility compliant services.

Lucy Collins

And why is it so important that we get this right, particularly I think documents as well, because I think there's something that often get overlooked in the accessibility space. There's a lot of noise about obviously having accessible websites, accessible apps, but documents is something that I think goes under the radar quite a lot of the time. Why do you think that is? And also obviously why is it so important that documents do get above the line in terms of things that we think about when we think about this all -inclusive, accessible digital space?

Jon O'Donnell

I think there's a lot of attention on web -based applications. There's a lot of attention on obviously mobile -based applications. And of course, the accessibility legislation focuses on those two particular main sentences. And then further within that legislation, it then begins to mention documents and content. And I think it's one of these ones that people just don't realise there is a requirement around documents. And also people assume all documents are relatively easy to read. So there's a lot of assumptions and lack of knowledge and lack of understanding that effectively I see documents as like a independent, modifiable web page that everybody can create and everyone can create something and content and share it with people. But of course, there's so much to document accessibility that people are completely unaware of. And if just basic design features aren't in place people who use a screen reader or use voice recognition will not be able to navigate it, move around it, or even discern its content. So, it's one of these things that slipped under the radar, but it's one of the things that's so important. We've got around 20 % of people in the United Kingdom have a disability and about three million people who can't process colours properly. there's a huge amount of people who need to access documents. We use them in every part of our everyday life, most of them are digital now, but there's still some hard copy documents which can be obviously adjusted for. But the digital documents that we use in everyday life, when we're purchasing a car, when we're getting a letter from the health service, when making appointments to GP, all of these, their accessibility is very low. And of course, most people who are accessing health services will probably have a disability. So, if they can't access that, they're having to give up their privacy to have to ask somebody else to read the content to them. we wouldn't want that. So, we want to try and increase inclusion by making these things accessible so people can live independently.

Lucy Collins

Absolutely. And it's probably worth explaining what we mean by documents because, mean, we work together on an e -learning you developed that was very focused on Word documents. So as you say, the sorts of things that you might be expecting to get from your health provider, from your insurance provider, those sorts of digital documents, but presumably it's not just Word, it is other document types as well that is included in this work.

Jon O'Donnell

Yeah, it's all office type formats of documents. So, it can be PDF, but it can also be PowerPoint. It can also be Excel. It could be Google documents and others. all documents, any document that you intend to share with somebody else or is going to a very wide audience. And we risk assess those kind of audience sizes and everything else to establish the level of risk of somebody not being able to access content can potentially prevent somebody from having critical content they need for the improvement of their lives to access benefits or work or education. So, it has a huge impact. it's sometimes why we see that employment gap between disabled people and non -disabled people is because there are so many micro barriers to accessing education, career development, health services, education. Those are the kind of barriers we need to try and remove over time.

Lucy Collins

Yeah, completely. So what would you say are the most common accessibility problems that you see cropping up in the documents that you work on?

Jon O'Donnell

For example, with Microsoft Word, some of the most common errors I will see is lack of navigation, which effectively means the application of headings through the styles menu. By not technically tagging your document correctly, the elements within your document, it will prevent a screen reader from being able to navigate throughout the document. So it will all just be one long blurb and of course, with very long documents, that's going to cause problems because people can't go to the content they need. So, when you're thinking about your navigation on web browser, you can navigate through menus. The same principle applies with documents. You want to be able to navigate to the content you want and not a lot of content you don't need. So, navigation through headings and application style is really important. Text formats, we will quite often see. Text will be shrunk to fit more onto a page. Of course, that can have a knock -on effect. We don't see proper application of line spacing or paragraph spacing. And of course, alt text is still something we still see a lot of images or logos with no explanation of what they are or what they do or why they're in there. And effectively, all that gets announced is image and all the content is lost.

Lucy Collins

Yeah. And I think all these things are sort of what I guess I would call quite basic accessibility changes that people can be making. It's this sort of stuff that we know is fairly established in the accessibility world, but actually we also know that there's a broader benefit to providing document structure. So yes, we know a screen reader might be reliant on it to really discern the structure of the page, but actually just for us being able to read content that's been clearly sectioned up is going to help our understanding, our ability to process things, especially if you perhaps have English as a second language or lower literacy rates. And then as you say, alt text or alternative text, that text alternative that is associated with an image is often actually used by people that might be neurodiverse, that might have difficulty in understanding and processing image content, and they prefer to see a written version of it. So it's, we talk a lot about accessibility being universal, universality rather than accessibility. It's about making sure content can be understood and interpreted by as many people as possible, regardless of physical location, ability to understand and process information. And I think

there's this broader impact that making documents accessible can have, isn't it? It's not just for these very specific disabilities that we might have touched on already.

Jon O'Donnell

Well, exactly that. It's about communicating with your audience, whether you're in the private sector or the public sector. You want to communicate messages; you want to communicate key information. So, you want to make that, like you said, universal, open to all, but quite often through lack of awareness, lack of knowledge, we are actually precluding a very large section of that audience and that's something we don't want to do. You don't want to effectively lose part of your market in the private sector because you've just not designed your product properly. So, getting the design right, getting the features that will allow that document to be read by any assistive software and anybody else as well, that's all in your own self -interest.

Lucy Collins

This question wasn't on the guide I sent you before this podcast, but I just wondered as a follow -up, which is a question I get asked a lot, which is well, why do I need to bother doing this? I know the person I'm sending the document to doesn't have a disability. Why should I make the effort to put in heading structure, add alt text, all those sorts of things? What would be your response to that question to put you on the spot?

Jon O'Donnell

Do you know who is going to be forwarded to? Do you know who is going to be shared with? Also good practice, good habits. If you do it all the time, you won't even notice you're doing it. And to be fair, most of the time, most people will put a title and then they will reformat a title. So if you put a title in, just use head and level one in Word document, just tag it. It's actually going to be a lot quicker. You're going to save time actually, then rather than, I'm going to make that 26 font, I'm going to change the font type, I'm going to make it bold, I'm going to underline it. Please don't do that. But people do. And they'll spend more time and more clicks reformatting a heading in a document, then actually just clicking on the heading styles and the heading level one, which will do it all for them. So then they have to do it once. It can actually be a lot quicker if they use the accessibility features.

Lucy Collins

Yeah, similar to my response. I think there needs to be almost like a change in mentality, doesn't there? So at the moment, often people see it as an additional task, a burden that is put upon them to make a document accessible. But as you just nicely explained, actually a lot of the accessibility features will make your life quicker and easier.

just in the long run, or in the short term as well actually I should say. And I think we need to change the narrative and the mentality around document accessibility to say, if you do these things on the off, if you put this into your routine, if you are going to use those styles, if you're going to add alt text, if you're going to ensure you're using the right colours from the very beginning, it's not going to add time or effort to what you're doing. And it has the added benefit of being inclusive. And I think you're so right that you don't know where that document is going to end up it might be forwarded to someone that does have a disability or a problem processing and accessing certain colours or styles. So why take the risk to produce an inaccessible document when it's so easy and quick to produce an accessible one right from the beginning?

Jon O'Donnell

It is. And if you get your settings right in your apps before you start, you will more than likely save time. So if it's designed and set up in such a way, you've already designed your headers and footers and everything else, you've already designed your heading levels and you saved your styles and you've got your own theme, it's going to be really quick. The most time lost is fixing accessibility issues. That takes a lot longer than actually just putting them in place in the first place. So why do twice the work? A lot of the answers I get are, it's not accessible, but I'll do a plain text version for those who need it. And you come across quite interesting and outdated language when you're talking to some people. So, from that perspective, I just say, why would you do the work twice? And then why would you put in accessible content and then have accessible content? Just do it once, do it right. It's a lot quicker and it will save you a lot of time and reduce the risk. You'll reduce the risk of somebody being disadvantaged, excluded, potentially claims against yourselves. So do it once, do it right.

Lucy Collins

That's a nice little sound, sound bite there to include definitely. I think also this idea of an alternative is in a way almost a bit discriminatory in that why when you can do it in an accessible way in the first place, should you offer an alternative, that's going to be offering a different experience to someone with disability to someone without a disability when there doesn't need to be. And I think actually it feels like a bit of a cop out. I always think that when people tell me, but I've done an alternative or we've provided a different option or there's a phone number they can call. But every single time you do that, it's then disempowering to the person who wants to be able to access that information in exactly the same way as a person without a disability should be able to. I don't know if you had any other thoughts on it.

Jon O'Donnell

As soon as a person with disability has to ask, can I have that in a format I can read, or can I have that in another format? Because we haven't either offered it, or we haven't provided it to start with. We've already failed the customer once. So, let's not have service failures the way we work. Let's try and have good design in the way we design a service, including how we design the content and deliver a high quality service to the ones. And then we will improve people's lives a lot quicker and improve people's access to services by making sure that we do it right in the beginning. And it is a design fault. It's not the fault of the person who's receiving it at the end of the line. It's the fault of the people who designed whatever the content or the platform was to not consider their true demographic of who could be accessing this and not considering their responsibilities when it comes to being inclusive to all.

Luc Collins

Yeah, yeah, completely. I mean, that's a classic example of the mindset that a lot of people have, which is the problem sits with the person with the disability, and that is completely the wrong way to look at it. It is society that fails those people. And so, for us to just shift our mindset, to be able to embark on creating any sort of document, sending an email, even putting up a social media post, you know, and asking ourselves the question, is this accessible? from the beginning, you will be then part of the change that I think is required to ensure that we're removing as many of those barriers as possible for those people that should, as a fundamental human right, be able to access that content in the same way as someone who doesn't have a disability. And I hope that we will move in that direction, and we will get there. But unfortunately, it's probably a of a slow, a slow climb, isn't it? We are changing the landscape. Landscape is changing. The amount of training sessions I do, the amount of regularity of what I do with them.

Jon O'Donnell

Lucy Collins

Yeah, amazing. And just to pick up on a couple of things you said there, and I think what would be interesting is because there are a lot of people in businesses like yourself, obviously you're central government, but I think that what you are doing applies, well, to any business, quite frankly, but certainly from a legal perspective, applies to any public body. So some of the things that you've touched on that you've done there to try and improve the ways of working that you have, you've mentioned kind of training, e -learning processes. mean, what has been the kind of key changes or the key processes that you've implemented that you think have helped improve the accessibility of the documents that are getting produced by the DWP?

Jon O'Donnell

Well, working with content designers is one of the key aspects of what we do. I directly engage with them. We also survey our software users throughout the department to find out the priority areas for them, where the main blockers are so we can target those specific areas to remove blockers. We've worked specifically around improving our internal recruitment forms to make them accessible, so everyone has opens up the opportunity for everybody to move their forward, their careers. work very closely with internal training and other major teams to instigate major change documents where we can have the big impact. So, we target documents that have very high volume of downloads or high usage, and we work with the content designers of those to get those remediated as quickly as possible. Obviously with a department like ours, we're huge. It's a huge challenge, but it's a challenge that I'm very pleased to say I haven't found somebody who's not engaged with it or wanted to bring about that change. So, it's kind of like it starts as a trickle, but it's now becoming a roar and pretty soon it will be a bit of a tsunami and we'll get there quite quickly I think.

Lucy Collins

Yeah, so fantastic and it's really lovely to hear a really positive experience of accessibility because I think sometimes and a lot of the clients we work with there seems to be this underlying fear about accessibility you know we're going to get slapped on the wrist by the cabinet office because we've not done things right or the goalposts are always changing so how can we possibly keep up with this? So how do you think that the DWP has fostered such a positive approach to accessibility rather than one of fear and sort of box ticking, which I think unfortunately exists in a lot of organisations.

Jon O'Donnell

Very simply, DWP is invested in an accessibility team. So, you know, we're an accessibility standards and strategy team. We're a major investment, a major commitment to the future of accessibility throughout DWP. And this team has the responsibility of making sure that, of working with, obviously a very large organisation, but working across all boundaries to improve knowledge and understanding, whether it's of web content accessibility guidance, whether it's within coding, HTML, CSS, or document accessibility. And the beauty of thing is our remit is quite broad but does enable us to reach all parts of the organisation and have an impact. And this is a major investment from DWP in that because we know that being inclusive and opening doors to members of the public and our own colleagues is about changing and making our country better. So that investment is a huge investment, which not everyone has done yet, but hopefully others will follow our model.

Lucy Collins

I very much hope so because I think you're right, often the people we're working with are suddenly accessibility has been shoehorned into an already existing role. It's something that's been picked up by a content manager, a web developer, people who are not trained specifically in accessibility. And so they're often sort of scrambling around trying to get up this quite complex learning curve, I would say. Not only is it how do we make things accessible, but also what is the legislation, how does this apply to us and all those sorts of things. And I think the investment isn't there. And you said really nicely that you are reaching all parts of the organisation, which again, I think is so important because accessibility is never just the job of one person. It is the job of everyone, anyone producing content, particularly office documents, you know, how many people will be sat at their computer tapping away, you know, churning out an office document and not considering the accessibility of it. But if you can reach that person, then already you're going to be having that organisational cultural shift that we need to see right from the very, very sort of grassroots level for want of a better word, isn't it?

Jon O'Donnell

Absolutely. mean, yeah, this year I published the digital document accessibility policy that applies in DWP, but I'm also had the pleasure of working with other public sector stakeholders and other departments across the civil service and we're forming a document accessibility community group to help share the knowledge and share our experience and our learning journey. So that's progressing really, really well. We need to deal with it as a public sector and we are, and there's so much engagement that I'm finding across the public sector with the subject matter of documents. It is becoming, like I said before, from a trickle to a stream and hopefully a river than the sea.

Lucy Collins

Yeah, and so nice to hear that the knowledge sharing is happening because I think accessibility is, it is a complex ever moving field. And also, you personally being able to share your lived experience must be really beneficial to people that don't have that lived experience to really understand not only why is this important, but actually the changes that need to be made to help someone like yourself who uses Dragon, but also hearing from people that have other types of disability. Cause at the end of the day, we're helping human beings doing this. This isn't just a box ticking thing. There are real people at the end of of these services that need to be able to use them. And I think sometimes people forget that, right. And it's nice to sort of be able to remind them.

Jon O'Donnell

Yeah, there is actually beginning to become more and more of a passion for this and accessibility is a growing profession globally and obviously within the public sector. As I said, I've had pleasure working with colleagues in the Information and Business Office, Department of Health and Social Care, Cabinet Office in helping them running training sessions for them. I've got another one next week with cross -government colleagues on PowerPoint. So, the levels of knowledge are growing, the levels of investment are growing and the passion for it is growing. So, it's going to be a journey for everybody, but we're well ahead of the private sector in what we do, but we don't just want to be ahead of people. We want to be the exemplar that everybody follows and tries to emulate. Yeah.

Lucy Collins

Yeah. I mean, what a fantastic ambition to set yourself. I think it's brilliant. If you don't mind, I'd like to ask a little bit more about your own personal experience as it sort of just came up there quite nicely. You explained a bit about your upper limb disorder at the beginning of the episode. Can I ask a bit more about your experience of navigating the online world, sort of since that happened, using Dragon and what, if any, of the barriers that you have found you have come up against in your experience?

Jon O'Donnell

I mean, mostly they're micro barriers, because obviously mostly what I use Dragon for is dictation, because obviously I write a lot of documents, write a lot of content, a lot of training material. So, I use Dragon mostly for dictation and I do use my mouse for when I navigate in some websites where Dragon commands or for some reason it's not properly tagged or labelled or anything else and you can't navigate properly. But generally speaking, I use it for mostly dictation, which is where probably 85 % of my hands and arms work would be, I wouldn't be able to do it without Dragon. So, the voice recognition element of that allows me to dictate in a way which it's a little bit slower to edit with, but you know, just being able to just talk through a paragraph, talk through a piece of learning and then play it back to yourself as well and listen to it. It just saves me so much time. I used to be able to touch type. So, for about four five years, I lost that ability. So, my productivity went down, the quality of my work went down because sensitivity in my fingertips wasn't there to know if I struck a key or not. And I'd look up to the screen, I'd missed a whole sentence or missed a whole word or put the first or last letters. And so, for me, it was about getting me back to where I was in the sense of being able to produce the content. It doesn't make me not disabled, if that makes sense. It doesn't remove my disability. It just helps me navigate and produce and helps me feel valued again. Because for a long time, for a few years after my accident and going through the operations, my self -value plummeted, my self -confidence plummeted. So, Dragon has helped give that back.

Lucy Collins

Yeah, which is amazing to hear. Because I imagine it has a big sort of bent on almost your identity, doesn't it? When you have something that happens like that so suddenly and you feel so disempowered. So, for technology to be able to give you back that power, it must be an amazing experience for you.

Jon O'Donnell

It was. I mean, they can be wrong. The initial versions of Dragons I had and how it worked with the software and everything else wasn't a great experience, but over the course of the 10 years, it's been a huge change and it's now able to do much more. I'm looking forward to Dragon 16 coming in and Windows 11 coming in because I know that's going to open even more doors for me and improve my productivity further and again, increase my own confidence. So, and that's what I feel that's perhaps, you know, the opportunity by making things accessible, we're increasing people's opportunity to not just engage with society, but actually contribute to it in a very meaningful way. And we've got great people out there, why would we exclude them? Let's bring them in and let's open the doors that we've closed in their faces.

Lucy Collins

Yeah, and completely. It's interesting, a very different scenario. As you know, I had a baby seven weeks ago and I have spent a lot of time doing stuff one handed. And so all of a sudden I'm using a lot of the dictation options that are available. So within WhatsApp, I will send my long, you know, 2am messages to my other mum friends often by speaking to my phone because I'll have a baby in one hand. And it's amazing for me how freeing and empowering that has been. So a very, very different situation. But I think it's once again shows you how broad the impact of accessible features and making things accessible can be because it's going to help someone like yourself, but also someone like me who's sort of almost temporarily incapacitated due to the baby that's constantly attached to me all the time at the moment.

Jon O'Donnell

It's true. And of course, challenges that help you invent new ways of doing things. So, you when I first had my accident and I wasn't able to use my arm and after some of the operations I was in braces to prevent me moving my elbow joint, I had to find lots of different ways of achieving the same aims. So even if was just opening a tin of beans, I'd use a drawer and pin it with my hip and then pull the lid off that way. So, you find ways, necessity is the mother of all invention. And of course, people with disabilities are very good at inventing ways to actually do things. So they're actually very creative and we are very creative. That's unlock that potential by doing things in an accessible way and creating accessible content and websites.

Lucy Collins

Yeah, that sort of probably answered my final question. But what I put on the notes I shared with you ahead of the podcast was this final question of why should people care about accessibility as more than a box ticking exercise? Do you have a nice little nugget you'd like to share to kind of answer that question?

Jon O'Donnell

It's a huge resource. Why would you not use it? Simple as that. People with disabilities have a huge amount of potential. They're not able to always show that potential because of the world around them, because the way the world's been designed, the way the world is, and the way the world uses digital content. We can unlock a huge amount of potential, a huge amount of capability by making small changes. And that's a huge amount of resource. When we're talking about productivity of the nation, when we're talking about productivity within communities, within your own employer. It's all about unlocking potential. And at the moment, have potential that is restricted and not able to express themselves. Without Dragon, would I be able to express myself in the way that I do? Would I be able to write the courses I've done? No. But with accessible content and accessible websites, we can actually unlock more potential. And there's a huge reservoir of potential there that is going to be only beneficial for our country and beneficial for the public sector and for private employers if we can just do the design elements first properly. That's quite a lot of sentences. Sorry about that.

Lucy Collins

No, no, no, it's fantastic. And I think it's probably a perfect point to sort of end things on today. And just to say a massive thank you to you, John, for joining me today, sharing those wise words and obviously your lived experience as well. I think we say this a lot, but accessibility is not a nice to have. It is essential. It is a basic human right. And obviously it applies to online documents in exactly the same way it applies.

to websites, to apps, to social media, to anything that you find online. And you've shared some really fantastic ways that people can obviously start to think about and embed accessibility in their organizations and actually make it a really positive, beneficial thing. Your approach at the DWP is such a positive one to hear about the pro -activism that exists, the fact that this is something that, as you say, will hopefully one day be a tsunami of interest, something that we just almost don't really think about. It just is the way things have been really positive to hear. So, I guess my final comment to the listener is that for anyone making documents, make sure that they're accessible. Just take some of these small steps that we've talked about today and you'll be unlocking that potential, as you said, John, and making the world a better and hopefully more inclusive place. So thank you, John. It's been a real pleasure to speak to you today.

Jon O'Donnell

Thank you, Lucy. Thank you for having me today.

Lucy Collins

Thank you for tuning in to the Web Usability Podcast. We really hope you enjoyed this episode. If you have any questions, comments or topics you'd like us to cover, reach out to me on lucy at www.webusability.co.uk or connect with us on LinkedIn. Please don't forget to like and subscribe so you never miss an episode. Until next time, keep making the web a better place, one user at a time.