Culture strategist and leadership coach Jenni Catron shares “The Grand Commandment” and how it pertains to leadership, why it’s important to lead with the heart as well as strategy, the value of creating a safe space for honest feedback, the delicate balance of being bold but respectful, the role of faith, and why leadership is sacred work.

Jenni Catron, she has a book called The Four Dimensions of Extraordinary Leadership. She's a great, magnificent leader and thinker, and we're bringing her back to talk about the four dimensions

of extraordinary leadership. So Jenni, welcome, welcome back.

Thanks so much. Looking forward to catching up today.

So this book is really built on Bible verse.

Yeah, yeah. I have worked in a couple of very large, influential churches, but prior to that, I worked in the corporate world. I worked in the music business in Nashville. And those of

us who have lived in Nashville, you know that that's kind of a big part of the heartbeat and the pulse of Nashville. So I had worked in the corporate space, you know, kind of learned a lot of my

early leadership in that environment, and then I went into church work, and it was, you know, really a startling transition, and just how challenging leadership can be, sometimes in a ministry or a

church context, because of, you know, people aren't paid to be there, so you have to be a great leader in order to motivate volunteers and keep them engaged when they have, you know, all kinds of

other responsibilities and and demands on their life and their world. And so, you know, as I was kind of making that shift into ministry leadership, I was really challenged by how to how to lead

Well, and what does it take for a leader to lead extraordinarily well? And so I, you know, I'm a I'm a thinker, I'm a processor. I have to build frameworks to help me figure out how to make sense of an

idea or a thought. And as I was working with some of the teams that I was both leading staff and volunteers, I kept, you know, wrestling with this idea of, okay, great leaders need to be relational

leaders. And I found this to be very true in the church, as well as, you know, spiritual leaders, they needed to have a sense of care for the people they're leading. They still needed strategy,

which was really the way that I led very strongly in the marketplace when I was in at the record company, and I led with a lot of strategy. And then leaders also need to be visionary. They need to

be help people know where we're going and why we're going there, and why that's critical. And so I, you know, I kind of had these four anchors that I felt were important for me as a leader, to lead

from and as well, you know, teaching my teams to lead with those four dimensions. So, you know, it's relational leadership, it's spiritual leadership, it's strategic leadership, it's visionary

leadership. And then for me, because faith is, you know, pretty core to who I am. You know, the grand aha for me was this moment that I went back to what they call the great commandment in

Scripture, where Jesus is telling his followers to love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind and with all your strength. And that was like the light bulb just

kind of came on because it was like, here it is in like, the core of my spiritual beliefs is these four dimensions. Because the implication of that verse is, Jesus is saying, Why does He say those

four things? He's saying Love the Lord your God with all your heart, your soul, your mind, your strength. And the implication is That's our whole being. That's all of who we are, you know. So as a

leadership junkie, I'm trying to figure out, okay, how do I lead well, how do I lead people in a way that motivates, inspires, is authentic, is sincere, and for me, that means leading with all of who I

am. And what I found was I would often sacrifice the relational side of me because I was so driven to get the tactics or the plan done. But we all know that as soon as you start you know, driving

that aggressively, and you lose a little heart in your leadership. You start to, like, kind of leave people in the wake.

So let's actually talk about that for a second. What are some of the risks there if you are a strong, you know, kind of strategic thinker, planner, architect. What are some of the challenges or

the weaknesses, or the things you have to look out for as it comes to leading with the heart or this relational piece, as you talk about it.

Yeah, you know. And this is the one that is such a challenge for me, is that, you know, I can lead with a lot of strategy, and frankly, that has served me well. You know, that was

the thing I got promoted on. It was the reason why, because, you know, everybody that I'm reporting to is, you know, happy for the things I accomplish. You know, they're, they're, they're, you know,

happy to see the the goal accomplished, the the the number achieved, and whatever the metric is, right? And so, but what I was finding for me and my leadership is that I was. And I just lacked this

intentionality and this awareness of the people that I was leading and how my drivenness was actually wearing them down. And you know, so this would happen to me a lot, both in my music

business days and then in my ministry days, is I would be driving really hard to accomplish a goal, and unaware of how that was taxing the team or wearing them out, or making them feel like they were

just cogs in a machine, and not human beings with hearts and concerns and families, you know. And so I think that's the piece, you know, for those of us who are really strong in the strategic side, and

a lot of us are, because we're driven, you know, we're driven to accomplish things, and it's the thing that has given us the opportunities that we have in the different leadership roles that we

carry. And so I think it's that awareness of people, and slowing down to see people, that's probably the thing I have to tell myself the most frequently, is that slow down to see people, see how you're

impacting them, see what's going on with them. Just slow down.

Do you think most of that battle is really just an awareness? What can we do to really focus on that heart or that relational piece? Because I think a lot of a lot of leaders struggle with this

part in particular.

I totally agree. And so just practically for me, you know, I had, I had a great leader. You know, when I was in my early 20s, one of the vice presidents of the record label I

worked for, I noticed that every day he walked around the office first thing in the morning, and, you know, he would walk around and he'd say hello to everybody. And I thought, well, that's really

strange, because he's got so much to do. Why is he taking time to walk around and just chit chat with people? And so one day, I asked him about that, and he said that he purposefully did that,

because, again, he was a really strategic leader, obviously, as a VP of a, you know, at the time, one of the biggest record companies in the world, and he had plenty going on, you know, so his

willingness to it was, it was part of how he disciplined himself to make sure that he slowed down to see people. Was he would walk around the office every morning, it was the first thing on his

calendar. So I think for those of us who are really strategic, we have to find the things that we can do and build it into our schedule. And that's the only way for me, I've been able to and again,

I've seen other leaders do this. So you have to figure out, how does it work for you? Now, it needs to be authentic. It needs to be sincere. So if it's too robotic, it's going to be, you know, people

are going to sniff that out. But I think, you know, doing things like that, the other thing that I often do is, in my one on one meetings with my staff, I would take the first five minutes and I

would just ask personal questions. Hey, how are you doing? How's your family? You know, I would have to make notes, you know. So still today, in Evernote, for each of the people that I lead, I've got

notes of their family, their spouse's name, their kids names, their dog's name, I mean, and I have to, I have to write it down, because I will forget it. Because I'm, we're, you know, I'm so focused

on, you know, the the big goal that we have to accomplish that that will escape me if I'm not purposeful to write it down, but I promise you that by taking a couple of minutes to just ask how

they're doing as a human goes so far in the relational equity that you build and your leadership influence with the people you lead. So that's important. And then the other thing that I would add

to this, add to this is also to recognize I'm never going to be exceptional at the heart side of leadership, because it's not my natural wiring, like I am wired to get stuff done. I think I need to

continue to seek to be more aware. And I have seen growth in myself on the heart side of leadership, but I'm looking to be more aware of that side of dimension of leadership, but then putting people

around me. So for instance, Ashley was my executive assistant for eight years, and Ashley's one of those people that, you know, the whole staff will tell her how they feel about something, you know.

So let's, let's say there's a new initiative, you know, some New, Project, Ashley would be the one to tell me when I was driving too hard, and I had to give her permission, you know. So she was my

assistant. She reported to me. I had to make sure she knew it was safe to tell me those things. But that's why I think just those honest conversations with the people you lead and you can help them

see that you bring this to me. And I need this. I need your sensitivity, I need your your relational leadership skills, because it's going to make me a better leader, too. You know, she was just

extraordinary at that, and because of that experience of realizing how valuable it was to have somebody around me with that relational intelligence, really now I'm really purposeful about it,

because I know without it, I will just bulldoze people without even realizing it. How do you have that conversation with like Ashley as an example? Talk about that a little bit. Yeah, you know. And

I think, you know, some of these things are really organic. You know, they happen over time as we get to know one another and we spend time with each other. And, you know, let's be honest. Leader.

Are really busy, and so sometimes we don't have the space to develop those kind of relationships that are really honest and and open with each other. But that was, that was kind of the beauty of my

relationship with Ashley, is that we we just devoted a lot of time to learning each other and understanding how one another worked. But I will tell you this, when I hired an assistant, when I

went out to Menlo, that was very specifically something that I was looking for. So even in the interviewing process, you know, I was asking, you know, individuals how we would work with one

another, and you know, what they would need from me to feel safe enough to, you know, to bring to my attention things that I might be blind to, and so even in the interview process, I'm trying to get a

sense for are they, are they bold enough, yet respectful enough? It is a tricky balance, and it's a gamble, but I think it's worth the risk. You know, I think I spent a lot of my early days of

leadership playing it so safe and so guarded and not being open to the people you know, to the people around me, to either express my vulnerability, because there's a there's a vulnerability here

as a leader, to say, You know what, I'm not very good at this relational side of leadership, and I need you being willing to be vulnerable to a person, in this case, who reports to me, and to say, I

need you. I need you to help me be the best that I can be, and as a team, we're going to be better for it. So it takes that vulnerability as a leader. And I think I love right now, I think just in

leadership circles in general, there's a lot of conversation about that, about that, the willingness of the leader to be sincere, authentic, vulnerable, it doesn't mean that you don't carry the

authority, because you do.

What do you need to feel safe enough to bring these things to my attention? That's a great question.

And I think you've got to ask it often, you know? So I was asking it in the interview process, but then I need to permission them frequently to tell me what they see, because if you feel

the need to point something out to somebody you work for, that's a pretty unnerving thing. It happens often at critical moments. So let's say there's a there's a project or an initiative, or

you're starting to sense a little tension in the culture. Those would be the times that I would I would specifically ask those heart leaders around me to say, Hey, what are you seeing? What are you

seeing that I need to see? What do I need to be aware of? And then I would work it in every, you know, maybe every couple of weeks, every couple of months. I mean, there wasn't any like, you know,

real systematic rhythm to it. But I'm and this is where I get myself in trouble, because I'm a very intuitive leader, which can be good and bad, because sometimes I can read things into a situation

that aren't there, and then other times I can just be sensitive to, okay, something's going on in the culture I need to be aware of. Because I think sometimes we try to just run over that, or gloss

over and, like, keep plowing forward. And that can be the most dangerous thing we can do to the culture.

You mentioned, intuitive. So the whole idea of the great commandment, right? Is, is love your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, all your strength, you mentioned the word

intuitive. Does that intersect a little bit with leading with your soul?

You know? I think so. That's a great question. Because I think you know, for people of faith, we're going to talk about the Holy Spirit, or into, you know, like the the, you know, sense

that God's giving you leader, you know, direction on something. And I so, I think intuition, gut instinct, all of those things can and, you know, for people of faith, that's going to be birthed a

lot from the Holy Spirit and our beliefs. And, you know, kind of this core foundations that we've we've built our life upon. And so I do, I think those things really go hand in hand. It's that

sensitivity to just how your faith informs your work and you know, and this is, this is everything from your character, how you conduct yourself, the values that you believe, you know, again, because

of people of you know that are people of faith, a lot of our values, the character qualities we're wanting to be developed are coming from, you know, our from the Scripture, from our belief in God.

So whether you're, you know, whatever your faith background is, it is informing your values and the type of character that you want to develop. And that's really what I'm getting at in this idea of

soul, of leading with all your soul, you know, and we've all seen examples of how poor character eventually surfaces in leadership. And so I think we've got to be really mindful of that and how

we're leading others, and how that is just a part of our everyday lives as leaders. And I think a lot of us will separate those things. And I just, I don't, I don't believe that you can, you know,

and I think we see this a lot in high profile positions, where there will be a character thing that surfaces high profile leaders will try to separate those, any, any leaders really, will try to

separate those two things from one another and say, Well, you know, here's what I'm getting done. Here's what I'm accomplishing. Yeah, but we all know that our opinion of that person and our respect

for that person is affected by a moral choice or a character issue that's starting to surface, right? And so for me as a leader, I'm wanting to say whether it should or it shouldn't, it does, you

know? And because we can make all kinds of arguments about, well, my role, my responsibility, is to get this accomplished. And so people should just be judging me on, you know, what I'm accomplishing,

but they're not. That's just not human nature. And so I think, as a leader, I think it's wise for us to be mindful of the fact that this part of who we are, this soul or this, this, you know,

character, morality, integrity, all of those things impact our leadership and how people perceive us as leaders. And so why not pay attention to them? You know, why not be more aware of how that

influences our leadership influence?

The book is called The Four Dimensions of Extraordinary Leadership. Jenni Catron is who you're listening to. Jenni, where do you want people to go to get connected to you?

Yeah, my website is the best place to get connected. It's Jenni, catron.com, j, e, n, n, i, C, A, T, R o n.com.

Jenni, is there anything you know, any last little thing you would leave people with in terms of just how this aligns with the great commandment and some of the ways you allow your faith to

inform what you're doing every day?

Yeah, you know, I think the one of the things that kind of keeps me up at night as a leader is that I need to lead myself well in order to lead others better. And I think, you know, the

four dimensions framework, I think, is a tool that helps us, kind of learn to lead ourselves better. We learn to lead ourselves well, because everything that I'm doing as a leader impacts those that I

lead, you know, and so the more aware, the more self aware I am, the more emotional intelligence I'm building, the better leader I'm going to be for the people around me. And I really think that

leadership is sacred work, because leadership is influence. Influence means to change or affect someone. And so we are changing and we are affecting the people around us every day as a leader,

whether we're aware of it or not. So the more aware we can be, the more intentional we can be, I think the greater impact we're going to have on the people that we get to serve and lead, and I just

think it's a remarkable opportunity for us as leaders to be able to seize that and be aware of that.

Keep inspiring and thanks for spending a little more time with us.

Thank you so much. I always look forward to connecting and so grateful for all you're doing to equip us as business leaders and entrepreneurs. So thank you.