In this episode we speak with Chris Hatfield, Founder of Sales Psyche and author of The Subconscious Sale. Chris delves into the power of mindset, the impact of self-talk, and the importance of creating a supportive environment. With over 15 years of experience, Chris shares actionable insights on managing stress, building healthy habits, and how shifting perspectives on emotions can enhance both well-being and performance in the sales world​.

Hello. Welcome to the Growth Workshop Podcast with me,

Matt Best and Jonny Adams.

Hello.

And it's great to be joined by Chris Hatfield today

from Sales Psyche. So Chris, thank you so much for joining

us, and we're really looking forward to getting into the

conversation around the psychology of sales success, and

specifically, obviously focused on sales psychology and mindset.

So thank you so much for joining us today.

You're welcome. Thanks for having me.

Alright, perfect. Well, I'd love to understand a

little bit about your journey so far, so maybe you could tell us

a bit about where it all started for you and how you've got to

where you are today.

Yeah. So I think, like a lot of people,

when they start a business, it can come from, I always say,

Turn my pain into a passion, almost. So I probably came out

of university when I first realized I struggled a lot of

anxiety, and this was 1516, years ago, so back then, there

wasn't as much of an awareness or understanding or even a label

around it, and I'd gone to uni and done sports coaching, I'd

always had a fascination with development and an interest of

sport, and I came out, and like most people did back then, fell

into sales. Door sales in particular, go and knock 100

doors a day. Get into a closed floor selling loft and cabbie or

insulation 100% commission, go and do your thing. So most

people would say that's probably anxiety inducing for anyone. But

at the time, I kind of thought, You know what, I don't want this

to define me. I thought, if I, if I don't do this, then will it

stop me? Will it get into the mindset of, actually, I can

avoid this because of this? So I thought, well, let's go and

apply some of the tools and the understandings I've got from my

degree, and for one, to use your degree, which most people don't

really and started to realize that actually I was changing the

way I was looking at my anxiety, changing the way I was

responding to my emotions, to my perspective, to my self talk,

and with having that kind of coaching mindset. Always wanted

to support other people. That's where I got my fulfillment. So

it was never much of a lone wolf when it came to sales. So as I

went through my career, I was giving people advice and

suggestions and tools and realizing actually this was

making a big difference. And thought, okay, eventually I want

to do something bigger with this. So I started a podcast

years ago now, and then started thinking, right, how can I break

away from sales more into coaching? And went and did a

coaching degree. And with the idea of being that being in

sales, I saw particularly mindset and well being was a

very reactive thing, like wait for a problem, wait for someone

not to be motivated, wait for someone to be burnt out, and

then we'll do something about it. Or someone's thinking of

leaving, oh, what can we do? And it's like, well, why aren't we

doing more preventative and proactive work in the same way

you would with a product or skills training? So I just felt

like this was a big gap, and started going in and delivering

talks and workshops around it, and then fell, do you know what?

Actually, this is something I can turn into a business. So

about four and a bit years ago, during the pandemic, I thought,

You know what? Let me go and start something? You know, I've

always been, not always, but in the last few years, always ask

myself the question, what's the impact of not doing this? Things

very easy to think when you're thinking about something of all

the things that could go wrong. But as we'll probably come to

later on, the idea of almost making where you are now

uncomfortable or unfamiliar can actually provoke action as well.

And I thought I'll probably resent myself. I'll resent my

job eventually, and when am I going to have a better time to

speak about mental health than the pandemic, because

unfortunately, obviously it's not a good thing that the

pandemic happened, but it did bring the conversation of mental

health to the forefront where it belongs. So did that start sales

psyche? And have been doing that ever since, delivering workshops

talks with the aims of equipping managers and salespeople with

the tools to build a healthy and high performing mind along the

way. And recognizing the well being isn't just about making

yourself feel better, it, it can elevate your performance as

Wow, yeah. And I think it's, it's such an

well.

important topic. It's an important it's a topic that

jolly, and I talk to a lot of our clients on not to the

Necessarily, always to the same level of detail that, but really

having that focus and that laser focus on on mindset. And then,

yeah, I would probably agree door to door sales doesn't sound

like something that's low anxiety, right? As in, most of

our audience are thinking, hang on, is this guy really? But so

thank you so much, Chris for sharing your story. And I know

you know, a lot of what you do in in this space is going to be

coming together in a in a book called sales psyche. Is that

right?

Yeah. So sales psyche a guide to mastering a

healthy and high performing mind, is the idea behind it. So

I packed it with 35 of my activities and tools that I

coach and train with, 25 leaders from the industry, as well

stories from people I've coached with the idea of giving people

the tools to build that productive, proactive mindset

that will ensure that you're not only successful, but not at the

cost of your your well being really so that's something that

will be coming out later this year that I'm really excited

about. And just giving people and this sort of platform, I

think this is bigger than me, this topic, but I want to be

able to contribute in some way to go, we've evolved. So much in

the world of sales, it's about time we evolved in this part as

well.

I love a bit of DIY literature as you know, you know

those things. How many frameworks?

Just about 35, so every chapter has a tool.

Yeah, yeah. It sounds like a year's worth of

reading. Only get through one book a year, yeah?

Well, I was thinking when I was doing it. I

go, What books do people books the salespeople go to about

mindset and wellbeing. They go to books not written for

salespeople. It's like going, oh, you know, what cookbook do

you use to cook Italian? Well, there's nothing Italian. So I go

to a French cook. Okay, surely someone should write something,

yes, actually, for people.

Yeah, that's great. And I think those, those sorts

of bits of literature and those sorts of books always have a

more, or certainly for me, have a more profound effect on on how

it absorbs into, you know, into my own sort of subconscious, and

how I'd say that on so I'm sure a lot of our listeners will be

looking out for that as it as it sort of hits the shells, as it

were later on this year. So I mean, just taking, I guess it

kind of a bit of a pause there, before we get into the heart of

today's conversation, which is really kind of diving deeper

into the psychology of sales success, as is customer on the

Growth Workshop Podcast, Chris, we like to ask you what's been

interesting in your world for the last across the last week.

So tell us what's, what's going on in in your world at the

minute, that's that's kind of fascinating that you could share

with our audience.

Yeah, I think. Well, a number of things, but

one that stands out in the last sort of six, seven weeks,

started a free London Run Club community called run your mind

that embodies pretty much what I was just talking about. There,

giving people a space to come to talk, to run at the same time,

and talking and running or walking has a profound impact on

reducing our stress, social judgment, anxiety, and helping

us feel more present in the moment. But this Run Club is

giving people a space once a week. We have a different topic

each week and questions around that topic that people pick at

random, and then we'll ask each other on a run around Hyde Park,

and we've covered topics like comparison with others,

happiness, habits, and it's allowed people to give them that

space where a lot of us want to talk about these things, but

hey, we think, am I going to be a burden? B, how do I bring this

up? How do I bring up my friends? Hey, do you compare

yourself with other people? Like, how do I approach that?

Whereas this kind of provides that space to go, this is where

we do talk about those things that maybe you can feel more

comfortable to then go and have a conversation with your

partner, with your friend, with your colleague. Afterwards, take

that question with you and go, Hey, I got this question, or run

Club today, like, What's your thoughts on this?

Well, we've been on your LinkedIn profile, Chris,

you're a very you know, present person on LinkedIn, and we saw a

great post recently that had a few of your questions, although

we're not running, could we ask one of those questions and see

what our responses are with that? Yeah, right. Yeah. So we

picked one. It was about habits. And SBR, we are all about

habits. We talk about forming habits, and how habits are an

important part for sales professionals and growth

professionals to be successful. But this question, and Matt,

brace yourself, what is one habit you wish more people could

learn and benefit from?

Yeah, and I'll add just a bit of context here,

because I think one thing that I learned years ago that's always

helped me when I'm breaking bad habits and building healthy

habits, is you don't crave the habit itself. You crave the

state it delivers. So anything you look at as a habit of yours

at the moment, you crave the state it delivers. Even

exercise, you crave the state it delivers. You're eating

chocolate, you crave the state it delivers. And once you work

out what state you want to you're looking for, you can then

recognize, actually, I'm not sort of bound by this unhealthy

habit, but it's actually something that I can replace it

with. But I one habit I think I wish more people could learn,

and I talk about it a lot, is something I started about four

or five years ago, which was leaving my phone out of the

bedroom. So going to bed in the evenings, I used to scroll if I

couldn't sleep, I used if I woke up, I'd maybe just grab it, and

then I'd wake myself up, and in the morning, it was the first

thing I grabbed. And I always felt sort of chained to that,

because you then see all the notifications. And then I

thought, Okay, this is something I want to start doing. So I

started sort of two or three days a week, then four days, and

then started recognizing and reflecting, how do I feel,

giving myself something to do, and now it's allowed me just to

go right. The bedroom is for sleeping. I don't scroll. In the

evening, I can switch off a lot quicker. I also feel like I'm

sleeping more consistently. And then in the morning, I always

then go right. What can I do for myself before I think about what

others want from me? And that has been a habit that's just

like revolutionized, and it's an example of habits that they can

be the smallest of things, that can make the biggest of

differences as well.

Yeah, I love that, and without poaching your idea,

but pretty much I am going to, I absolutely resonate with the

sleeping situation. I found that I go through fluctuations

through my life of sleeping well, sleeping poorly, not

entirely sure how and why that's happening. I don't know whether

it's the fact that there's, you know, work pressures, family

pressures, or even maybe too much alcohol. Sometimes could be

all three, potentially. But I definitely think that habit of

removing technology before. All going to bed, actually, for the

fact of having better time with my wife and being a bit more

present. I think the only area of my life, I say it now only

that's a bad word to use. One of the areas of my life is to be a

bit more present with my wife. And I think technology is a real

sort of challenge, and I'd like to manage that better, and I

think the benefits would be phenomenal. So I'm probably on

that journey. I don't think I've nailed it yet, so sorry if I'm

gonna answer your question completely.

That's fine.

Slight variation of that, and I heard this recently

from somebody I forget exactly where, but talking about the

disconnect of work and home life in this sort of modern world we

find ourselves living in, and a lot of us working from home.

Because I know when we first met over video conference, you were

in your home office, Johnny, we spend a lot of time in well, we

spend a lot of time, I see you a lot of time in your home office

when I'm in mine. And I think it sort of links, I think, to what

both of you are saying, which is around this, the ability to kind

of disconnect, properly, disconnect from work. And this

thing, I'll call it a thing, because I forget whether it was

a video or whether it was a conversation or pop from a

podcast, but talked about having a trigger for putting, for

breaking the chain between those two environments. And I think,

actually, I see a lot of people who are sort of, we're blurring

those two environments, myself included, of okay, I'm just

going to leave my office, but I'm going to take my office, but

I'm going to take my laptop me so I can just finish an email

while the kids are eating their dinner. And I'm like, talk about

kind of reconnecting with the family and having that, that

sort of isolation. I mean, I used to have an hour and a half

on the train to find that time, and now I have 30 seconds

between leaving the door and landing in the kitchen, and I

think that's really, really important to so for me, it's for

myself. But also, as I see in others, it's having the ability

to go, Okay, well, that's sort of, let's shut the lid. What's

that thing that trigger that's going to stop it, that's going

to disconnect me from from work, me into family, me so I can

properly be present. So I slightly stolen your points, but

I think that that thing's particularly important. Yeah, I

don't know if you've got any thoughts.

Well, I've got a couple of things, and probably

even one of the tools, actually, we talked about the start to use

that, which can help with switching off. But it's linked

to something Starbucks did a study a few years ago. I think

it was called the third place or third space study, as to why the

most popular reason they go to their coffee shops. And it was

actually that transition from going from work to to home,

people see it as a way. That's why most people go to a coffee

shop on the way. That's why most people will say, let's meet a

coffee shop. Not just because of coffee, but it's that kind of

break in between, and that's what a lot of people have lost

with working from home, is that divide, particularly when you

don't have the luxury of a home office. And you know, I've

worked with salespeople that might have particularly during

covid, who were sort of in a house share, for example, and

all sharing a living room and not having that luxury in your

brain, then finds it very difficult to go hang on. We were

working in here today, and now I'm meant to be chilling out,

but I'm starting to have these core memories of, well, you

know, I'm here for this reason, so how can I switch off from

that? So something that I encourage people do is what I

call it the brain dump exercise. So the biggest challenge I find

is that people are so busy in their day they don't have time

to reflect on it. And often it's not until we go to bed that we

sort of unwind due to technology, and that's when all

those thoughts come through, and that can often be the reason why

people struggle to sleep. It's a bit like being in a CGI film.

You do all this green screen stuff, and you're like, hang on.

Like, hang on, I don't really make sense of it until I watch

it back at the end. So the idea behind the brain dump is it's

four quadrants. You do this at your end of your day, like just

before you're finishing wrapping up, and you can spend five

minutes on it, 1015, and there's four quadrants, there's pending,

there's um, wins, challenges, solutions. So pending is you

brain dump everything that you think your brain is going to

think about for the next day. Or if it's a Friday next week, even

if you've got it in your calendar, go, what is it

something is going to pop up? I've got, I've got to send this

email. I've got to speak to this person. I've got to book a

plumber like it doesn't just have to be work related. Get it

all down. Wins is, what have I done well today or even this

week, if you're doing at the end of the week, and not just what

has happened? Because if you say that, you'll often focus on the

things you haven't controlled what have. And then the

challenges is, rather than just going, Oh, it's been a really

stressful day or wasn't productive, what made it that

like? What was the tangible thing? I got caught up in

emails. I got caught into meetings. I said yes to

something that actually took two hours longer than I thought it

would be. And then solutions, what can I do tomorrow or next

week that's going to mitigate that actually check how urgent

something is, or close my emails down when I'm making calls. So

the idea is, you're left with this brain dump at the end of

the day. The pending psychologically means, and

subconsciously, your brain thinks, Oh, we're not going to

forget it, because it's written down. And anyone listening to

this with kids will realize like, when you write something

down, when you put it on the fridge, when give kids

timetables, their anxiety reduces. And we're no different

as adults like you write it down, it says, Hey, we're not

going to forget about this, because your brain is then like,

well, I need to think about it, and I need to keep it top of

mind. And then when you do that, your primal brain switches on

and goes. Need to solve it right now. So the pending solves that.

The wins allows for that self reflection. It's not always

obvious. It gives you that immediate sort of gratification

in a different way. Challenges doesn't just keep you stuck at

that level of who was stressful as unproductive it was. Here's

what the reasons were, and then solutions are right? I can go

into my evening knowing I'm going to do something about this

tomorrow or next week.

And thank you, Chris, because last week I was

feeling super overwhelmed, and to a point it got to Friday, and

I was like, I could do this whole week again. And and, you

know, we work closely, right? I can see when you're overwhelmed

and I'm overwhelmed, and I'm surely the same has arisen for

you. And I wrote a list down. It was a list this time, not in the

quadrants, but I was able to use the trigger, shut the shut the

lid, wrote the list. And I remember then I was able to

unpack and spend some time my wife and actually enjoyed the

weekend and just chisel away at that list on Monday. But I love

the quadrants, I think because I, like most of us, like write a

to do list, and they always seem to, like, cross off the top

thing, because you're like, yes, I've done one. It's that kind of

thing. You just note down the wins and the pending actions.

Thank you.

Yeah. And it reduces the chance of those

Sunday scaries from coming, because most people go, I'll

plan my week on a Sunday, and I'm always like, how can you

become more efficient and not having to use your weekend?

We'll do it on Friday, because everything will be fresh in your

mind, and you'll also recognize what's worked that week and what

hasn't to allow you to go in, and then you can always look at

it. When your brain pops up over the weekend, going, Oh, what

about this? Well, let's have a look. Okay, we've got it. It's

okay.

Love it.

Yeah, I think that's brilliant. I've definitely got

much less sophisticated ways that I think I sort of do some

of that, like you journey with to do lists. I'm a very to do

list type person. It's quite an organized to do list. But I

think just having that, the the the variety of different things

that that picks on all of those points, not just activities led,

but thinking about how you're feeling and celebrating those

successes, which is something around our dinner table every

well, I say every evening, kids aren't always at home for

dinner, but that question of, you know, what was good in our

day? Like so we asked one another what was good in our

day? And it challenges us all to sort of think about something

that was that could have puts a smile on your face, as opposed

to sitting down at the table going well, that was a rubbish

way to do this, or that was a terrible day, or I had this, or

I had that, and it's just yeah. So I love that.

Yeah, I think you owe it to yourself. You

know, on a day, if you're spending 810, 12 hours of work

or a week, 7080, 90 hours. You owe it to yourself to recognize

where that's got you, you know. Imagine if you were building a

house for 70 or 80 hours a week and you didn't look at it. You

know. Imagine if you you were climbing a mountain and you

never turn around to actually acknowledge the the distance

you've come is like, the point of that is not, it's not trying

to create toxic positivity. Where you're you're saying, oh,

everything's fine. I'm going to ignore the challenges. They're

there already, but these are the things that you don't or aren't

always aware of, and it's providing more of a balance,

like neutral thinking, rather than trying to create this toxic

positivity thinking.

Yeah, so, you know, obviously sales, sales psyche,

and getting into the kind of psychology of sales success,

and, you know, you're sharing there just some, some sort of

tools, techniques and kind of frameworks, and I'm sure, you

know, the 3037, that are in the book, if you had to, sort of, if

we, if we kind of transition to the problem as it were, like,

what? What do you think of the two to three things related to a

sales person's mindset that could potentially threaten their

performance and well being?

Yeah, I'll headline the three, and then

feel free if you want to pick it. Which ones I think self

talk. Yeah, I think how you perceive emotions and your

comfort zone or labeling your comfort zone. Those are the

three. Where do you want to start?

I want to go down the middle to start off with. So

perceive emotions and describe what that meant. Could you give

me a context of what that means, or maybe an example, because now

I think help me unpack that a little bit more.

Yeah, well, for example, when you're feeling

stressed, say you get an email come in, or a call doesn't go to

plan, or you talked about feeling overwhelmed, is how you

perceive that feeling. A lot of people can see as I'm fighting

against this, why am I feeling stressed again? Why am I feeling

so anxious? Why am I feeling nervous about this presentation,

like frustrated by it, and, you know, beating yourself hump over

it, which, of course, kind of couples of self talk, but can

lead you down that path of sticking there, ruining your

day, ruining your week, and to the point of the brain dump. Not

doing that means you're then just going to focus going to

focus on all the negative things. And Deloitte released a

study a few years ago where they said, we've labeled pretty about

25 core emotions, but we've got 15,000 combinations we can feel.

So the problem there is you can often be mislabeling emotions as

well. And it's very easy to go down the assumption that, oh,

this is anxiety, this is stress. And then you then your habitual

brain will go well every time we feel like this. This must be us

being anxious. Then this must be stress. And the other problem

with this is how you perceive emotion. So if you perceive

stress as a negative emotion, you'll get more stressed about

being stressed. If you perceive it as a positive emotion, you

might try and put yourself into more stressful situations. But.

As you think, I thrive off stress. I need deadlines, but

that can lead to burnout quicker. Yeah? An example I use

here, either of you like roller coasters?

If I feel strapped in.

Ok, so on the fence.

You know, I like, I do like, weirdly, pleasure, the

rickety wooden ones, yeah, I remember in America where you

don't feel like you're strapped in and at the end if it you go,

oh thank God I finished that.

I can't do those where I feel like I've been in a

fight with Anthony Johnson.

Oh, you'd win.

So I enjoy them. I wouldn't ask you to visualize

this too much, but imagine we went on a roller coaster

together. We'd both go round. We would both feel the same thing,

like we wouldn't be able to think straight. Probably have

sweaty palms. We'd have 1000 thoughts going on, but our

perception of that feeling would be different. I'd see it as I

want to do it again. You'd be like, get me off of this thing.

And that's the thing here. There is no such thing as a good or

bad emotion. There is only a good or bad perception or

reaction or response to an emotion. All emotions are

signals, you know, like the smoke alarm going off in the

house, not saying the house is on fire, yet it's what we do as

a result that can then turn it into an almost self fulfilling

prophecy. You know when you feel a question I asked someone want

to run the other week was, which is one emotion you wish you

could never feel again. They said anxiety. And I said, how

would that negatively impact you? Imagine never anxious about

any presentations. Imagine you were never anxious about what

you would say to someone. Imagine you were never anxious

about how you planned your day. What could be the impact there?

And I'm like, well, I might say something I regret, or maybe I

wouldn't plan for a presentation. And that's the

thing here. Like, you know, when we have perceptions of emotions

like that, we don't we lose sight of the benefits of them.

It's really interesting. You say, sorry for

butting in. It resonates with a part of our jobs. The three of

us are standing up and delivering some type of insight

to professional individuals. I know my worst performance in the

last five years is where I got myself into a position of

feeling like I was absolutely fine at doing what I was doing.

I didn't enable whether it was anxiety or the pressure, I

didn't I just suppressed it on purpose. I was like, I'll find

I'll fly in. I've done it for for four and a half years, or

whatever it was, turned up the worst delivery I've ever done in

my life. And from that moment, I've always said to myself, I've

got to allow this, whatever it is, because I'm finding it hard

now to label it, because there's about 15,000 odd options there,

but I've got allowed to just deal with it, because I know

when I do enable that thing, and I stand up. That's my best

delivery. You know, I have to tackle that, although I don't

want it there. So that was a good lesson learned. I didn't

want it. I didn't allow it to arise. It wasn't very good

delivery. Now, I just allow it, and I have to deal with it.

Well, it's it's even changing. We'll come to

self talk shortly, but even the same way of, for example, being

thirsty. Imagine if you didn't know water was the answer to

being thirsty, it would be a terrifying experience. You'd be

like, hang on. My mouth's getting drier. I'm getting a

headache. I feel dizzy. This is quite scary, but we don't have

that reaction to thirst. And I'm talking from a first world

country here. Of course, I'm not taking for granted that people

in the world, but often we don't. We think, Okay, well, I'm

just gonna get some water. We see as a very clear response. So

the same with hunger as well. But imagine you think you'd

never tell yourself, Oh, I hope I never get hungry again, or

never get thirsty again, or never get cold again, or never

get sad again. Is you? He's not saying you want these feelings,

but you know they're part of being human, and you also know

there's a quick solution or something that you can go about

doing it, and that's often when we look at other feelings, like

anxiety. Why people can struggle so much, because people aren't

educated on how to deal with it effectively. So that's why it

can be such a Oh, god. What do I do with this feeling? And I

still get anxious about things, but now that I change the

response to, what are you trying to tell me, versus Why is this

happening to me? Like, what's the signal here? What is it I'm

feeling anxious about? And once you change those to constructive

questions and your self talk, which we can come into, sort of

marries in nicely to this of going, how am I speaking to

myself in a way I'd want someone else speak to me? Or would I

would speak to someone else? If someone else was saying, Why are

you so anxious about this? Would that make me feel more or less

anxious? Probably more so what's a more constructive thing?

What's an empathetic thing if I was sitting down with someone?

And one thing I always encourage people to do with their self

talk, or whether it's imposter syndrome or about people around

no attachment styles, is give it a name. Give it a human name. So

treat it like it was a person. I was working with someone

recently, and they labeled theirs James. So they went to

uni with a guy called James, and James was a guy that was

incredibly anxious. Every time they suggested something, James

would would share something, go, what if this goes wrong? What if

this happens? And all they did over the years was just sit down

with James and listen and then sort of reassure him. They

didn't Judge James because they thought, Well, James is only

going to feel more anxious. However we judge them, he's just

going to bowl it up and it will come out in other ways. And

that's the one of the most effective things you can do, is

think about, how can I observe my thoughts rather than judge

them as much? And when I observe them, I can then listen to them

and going, what are you trying to tell me? And now I'm going,

Ah, I'm anxious that maybe if we take a presentation, for

example, public speaking, which most people can relate to, I'm

anxious they'll ask a question I don't know the answer to. I'm

anxious if it's a pitch that. Throw out a objection I can't

handle. I'm anxious that there'll be people in the room I

haven't met yet. Okay, what's one or two things within my

control I can do to reduce the chances that are happening. I

can preempt that objection. I can plan for that question, or

ask someone else. I can research those people, or ask my contact,

like, how would How do these people best receive information?

And then I go into that, and then I'm like, actually, do you

know what if I didn't do that, if I didn't feel like that, I

probably wouldn't have preempted that objection, I wouldn't have

answered that question. So I leave it going. I'm actually

grateful for that feeling, and not in a toxic positivity way

again, but in a way of next time it shows up and then, like, Ah,

here you go. Here's your signal. What is it trying to tell me?

I think what you just shared there, Chris, which is

that listen to your own thoughts, because I think so

often people we I say we only are talking for everybody here,

but if I think about me, and actually, if I think about some

of the people that we work with, Johnny as well, is that we're

encouraging them to think about and to translate it into

something productive, right to your point, we don't want just

blind positivity, because it doesn't help us in any way, but

to turn it into kind of productive self talk, well,

actually, I think there's a bit in between that you just shared

there, which is, we got to listen to it first, yeah, so

that we can unpick it, so that we can translate it, rather than

just saying, I'm going to take that word and directly translate

it to this word, and then try and convince myself that that's

the thing. So I think that's really important, like, so if I,

I guess, if I think about the audience and the people

listening to this podcast, if you're out there, and you're an

individual contributor, and you're, you know, in your first

18 months in the sales role, and you're thinking, I've got my

first like, big pitch, what am I going to do, having that,

listening to that, those those thoughts, listening to your own

thoughts and your own Perhaps destructive self talk before you

kind of jump into turning it around, makes it maybe more

likely that you'll believe it.

And there's another surprise tool for this

that I use, called notice it. Name it, neutralize it. So

notice it. Notice and this is where you want to become more

familiar with your triggers, your physiological triggers as

well, because you'll start to notice your physiological

triggers will be there before your thoughts are they'll often

be your sign. So for example, I started to realize I started

tapping my leg or, like, clenching my fist if I was

starting to feel anxious, so I knew that was a sign of, ah, I'm

going to start feeling or thinking a certain way, just

bringing that awareness in the same way you might be like, Oh,

I'm going outside. I might start feeling cold. So I don't need to

panic, because if I do, I know I need to put a jumper on, rather

than a helm. Why am I feeling like this? Well, obviously, I'm

outside with just a t shirt on, so it's going to be cold. So

it's noticing it. It's then noticing it from an observer

point of view. Ah, rather than why is Why am I feeling anxious

again? Is, for example, why you call my self talk Christian? So

I'll be like, Oh, Christian's having this thought again, or

Christians thinking about this again in a very neutral way, not

in a positive way, because, again, I've got a bit of a

problem with positive thinking, because it's almost just trying

to convince yourself to think a different way. And your brain

then goes, let's be honest, not everything does end up

positively. It then goes, See, told you, so we should have

thought negatively. It's like when someone says, just be

confident. Oh, okay, yeah, or don't worry. Or calm down anyone

listening says, Have you ever said calm down someone? Has it

ever had a benefit? No, it has. It has the opposite effect, and

we all regret saying it. Even when you say in the best

intentions, it doesn't help the situation. So notice it. Name

it. So name those thoughts. And whenever you're doing this

exercise, which I would encourage people to do

proactively, because any tool you practice proactively, the

more likely you're going to use it reactively, and the less

likely you'll need it reactively. But practicing

writing it down on paper, because going back to that list,

example, when we write we have to use the rational part of our

brain. We disrupt that amygdala, that amygdala hijack, which is

often where those irrational thoughts and feelings sit, and

because it forces us to be present, we can all probably

touch type here. If you try and write without looking, it

doesn't end well. So you're having to force yourself to

focus. So you're writing those thoughts. Christian is thinking

this, this is going to go wrong. What if this happens? What if

this happens? This is where you get into those negative what ifs

then the neutralize it part. You can go two ways here. So if

you're thinking about a future situation, a presentation, a

meeting, a call, anything, you know, even outside of work, it

could be meeting the in laws for the first time, for example, is

going two questions, whatever those thoughts are, what's the

biggest what are the biggest two or three reasons? I'm thinking

that might happen. So Robin's going, I'm anxious this is going

to go wrong. What are the two or three biggest reasons? Are you

reasons I use that example there of presenting question,

Objection, and then what are one or two things are in my control

I can do to reduce the chance it's not stop them, because I'm

going to be realistic here, but I can reduce them. Okay, here's

one or two actions, and what I've done there, I've given

myself some tangible things to focus on, and often that's all

we need in a situation, isn't to know that it's going to be

everything's going to be fine, but to know we've got some

influence within that control that will often reduce your

anxiety and stress and going back to overwhelm. Overwhelm is

often a breakdown of thoughts, not always of life, and it's

often where you've been thinking too much about things, when you

can actually bring it back to hear something in the process.

And that I can do, I feel less overwhelmed by it, and that's a

byproduct of a list. So that's the neutralized part. There's

another one which I can go into, which is where maybe you're

overthinking a conversation you've had of a manager, or

you're thinking, Oh, that email is a bit short. They're annoyed

of me. Or Hang on, that person hasn't texted me back yet. I've

done something wrong. And this is where you want to imagine

your brain is like a courtroom. You've got the prosecution

throwing out all those accusations. They don't respect

you. They think this of you. You might have people fold their

arms sitting there, you know, when they're when you're

presenting or afterwards, thinking they didn't ask many

questions. Maybe they didn't enjoy it. So then you want to go

defense in the courtroom, Where is the evidence that that

thought is true or false? What else could be true in this

situation, and if I knew that thought, other thought were

true, how would I think or feel differently about this?

That's brilliant. Again, that's, I think that's

really, really important to think and a lot of this, I'm

thinking in terms of the it's application, Chris is, I mean,

obviously it's not just in in sales. And a lot of this can

relate to, you know, you can, I'm sure. Again, people

listening to this are recalling, perhaps a meeting that didn't go

quite as they planned. And they're thinking, oh yeah, maybe

if I take that same courtroom approach, that might help we

sort of reflect on it, but also in any kind of job, in just in

life in general, right? This is super helpful way of handling

some of these challenges.

And there was a third, wasn't there? You said

comfort zoning was the third. Is that? Right? What's the...

Well I think the problem I have with the comfort

zone is, is how it's labeled, is, if it was so comfortable,

why is everyone trying to leave it? You know, if this was a nice

thing, why are so many people talking about leaving it all the

time? If you said, I'm in this relationship, I really want to

get out of it, because I sounds a bit toxic to me, like, doesn't

sound like a good relationship, if everyone's telling you to

leave it. And I think there's a few problems that come from the

comfort zone. Is you then perceive everything outside of

it is going to be uncomfortable. Going back to labeling, our

brains are very black and white, and they're thinking is, you

know, if I think that I'm I'm don't feel motivated today, I

can assume I'm unmotivated, or I don't feel happy. I can assume

I'm sad. But, of course, there's a lot of gray in between. But

when you have a perception that things are going to be

uncomfortable, either A, you'll procrastinate on doing it. B,

you won't do it, or C, you go into it with a negative

headspace, and can create a self fulfilling prophecy, almost

being like, Well, I told you, so, you know, I told myself so

that I wasn't going to be good at that, or it wasn't going to

be good. And it's then also, when you do start going outside

of it, you then start going, Oh, this is a nice, comfortable

thing I can go back to, so it seems a bit easier to kind of

revert back to and maybe not push through and build that

resilience as well. So my sort of perspective on this is it's

more of a familiar zone, rather than a comfort zone, is that you

don't become more comfortable with something. You become more

familiar with it. Like a marathon runner doesn't become

more comfortable with hitting that wall. They become more

familiar with the feeling behind it. That person going to the gym

doesn't become more comfortable with lifting weights. They

become more familiar with how to do it and familiar with the

feelings afterwards. If you think about anything you do, you

don't become more comfortable with it. You become more

familiar with it. And the idea behind that is you then start

looking at everything outside of what you're familiar with is not

uncomfortable, but unfamiliar, which straight away, doesn't say

to your brain, this is going to be scary, this is going to be

painful, this is going to be something all just unfamiliar.

And I'm being unfamiliar with something can breed curiosity

and go actually, I'm curious to become more familiar with this,

and the more familiar I become something, ironically, I didn't

become more comfortable with it. Yeah. But looking at it that

way, just that labeling in your brain allows you to kind of go

in with more curiosity, rather than sort of thinking, Oh God,

this is going to be tense. I'm going to struggle here.

And it promotes the idea of habits again, right? You

know, to get from familiar to unfamiliar, then to get to the

familiar again, then you'd have to form some type of productive

habit, or maybe unproductive, but you're going to get familiar

to a point, right? So that's going to take habits. I like

that. I like the challenge, because the way that I've seen

comfort zones articulated before is comfort zone, stretch zone

and panic zone, and then you overlay this sort of classic.

You know, if we said, let's all go for a 5k or you'll be fine,

Chris, because you're you're running. But then if I said,

Let's do half, no, the half marathon, 56k that stretch zone

and then panic zone is the half marathon, right? Is the again,

not for you, but you'll be absolutely fine. But yeah,

that's how I've heard it. But I really like the flip on that and

the lag. And it goes back to that, how words create pictures

and feelings in your head. So you know the spin on using

familiar, familiar and unfamiliar, when you think about

that, how that prompted curiosity, but how that changes

your emotions inside you a lot, how words are so powerful,

aren't they? That's what I'm hearing from you today.

Yeah, and even coupling that we've touched on

self talk a little bit, but you mentioned earlier on, like

something I have to get better with that feeling is even just

being conscious of one of the simplest things that I encourage

people to think about is even those little words, like, should

have need, when you think about it, everyone could probably

relate to this. Listening to this, you've been in a job,

relationship, friendship, somewhere where you've had

someone micromanaging. You're going you need to do more of

this. You should do this. You have to do this. And we hate it.

We hate demands, but we put it on ourselves every day. I.

Should work out more. I have to eat healthier. I need to do

this. And that's what a lot of people do, particularly for New

Year's resolutions, which is why it fails you tell yourself this

so much, you then end up self sabotaging, because your brain

goes, well, you're an adult. Or do I want? Or it's then, like,

you know, I need to that judgment when you don't. So even

just changing it to I want to, or get to, like, I want to work

on this. I don't need to. I want to, because choice. I get to, I

get to go for a run today. I want to become more mindful of

how I eat. I want to become more conscious of how much I

exercise. I want to become more familiar with this feeling I get

before public speaking.

That's, that's just...Thank you.

Chris, thank you so much for joining us, and to

everyone listening, join us for part two as we continue this conversation.