Chantal Morales McKinney's new book, "Following Jesus Beyond Church Walls: A Catalyst for Your Spiritual Growth," serves as a profound exploration of the intersection between personal trauma and spiritual resilience. Within this engaging dialogue, I converse with Chantal about her experiences and insights as a mystic Christian and visionary, emphasizing the importance of spiritual growth outside traditional church structures. We delve into the impact of church-related harm and the necessity for transparency and accountability within faith communities. Chantal elucidates how individuals can maintain their faith in Christ, even when disillusioned by institutional failures. Ultimately, this episode advocates for a renewed understanding of what it means to follow Jesus, encouraging listeners to engage with their faith beyond the confines of church walls. Chantal Morales McKinney's discourse on spiritual growth transcends traditional church confines, as elucidated in her book, "Following Jesus Beyond Church Walls: A Catalyst for Your Spiritual Growth". The conversation pivots around the intrinsic value of community, particularly in the face of adversity and trauma within church environments.

Chantal articulates her profound journey, which includes experiences of harassment and the systemic issues that often plague religious institutions. She emphasizes the importance of accountability, compassion, and authentic connection among believers, urging listeners to engage in meaningful dialogue, confess their struggles, and foster an inclusive spiritual community that uplifts rather than marginalizes. The episode serves as a clarion call, encouraging individuals to find pathways of faith that resonate beyond the established norms of church life, thereby expanding one's understanding of God and spirituality. As she shares her insights, Chantal invites listeners to reflect on their own experiences and consider how they can contribute to a future church that embodies love, respect, and genuine support for all its members.

Takeaways:

• Chantal McKinney emphasizes that her book serves as a beacon of hope for those whose faith has been shattered by church harm, inviting them to explore spiritual growth beyond traditional church boundaries.
• In the podcast, McKinney articulates the profound impact of church trauma on individuals, advocating for a systemic change that prioritizes the voices and experiences of those harmed.
• The conversation highlights the necessity of accountability within church leadership, addressing the alarming tendency to protect institutions over individuals who have suffered abuse.
• McKinney's work with the Water and Light movement seeks to create supportive communities for those affected by church harm, fostering healing and solidarity among survivors.
• The discussion underscores the significance of redefining the church as a community of believers, rather than merely an institution, to better align with the teachings of Jesus.
• Ultimately, McKinney encourages listeners to engage with their faith in personal and communal ways that transcend traditional church walls, reaffirming the presence of Christ in all spaces.

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Check out all of the other shows in the Anazao Podcast Network and find merch to support some of your favorite podcasts on the network's website:

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Visit Chantal's author website:

https://www.amazon.com/Following-Jesus-Beyond-Church-Walls/dp/1971589004

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Check out Chantal's Book on Amazon:

https://a.co/d/08MdYAh2

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Hear more from Joshua on Be Living Water:

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James, chapter 5, verses 13 through 16 in the New American Standard Bible.

Is anyone among you suffering?

Then he must pray.

Is anyone cheerful?

He is to sing praises.

Is anyone among you sick?

Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.

And the prayer of the faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him.

Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another and so that you may be healed.

A prayer of a righteous man, when it is brought about, can accomplish much.

This Bricavia Scripture comes near the end of the Book of James, which is a rather practical examination of what it means to be the church.

Throughout the book here and directly preceding the section that we read, James instructs believers to suffer with one another and then says to not complain about each other.

Here he instructs us to pray for one another and to confess sins to one another.

Chantal McKinney, in light of all this, how should we understand this?

Praying with one another, being there for each other, but also not complaining about each other, like in community.

How does that work?

Well, I think it's important, as scripture says, that if you have trouble with something, a situation that you've encountered to the church, that you go to your brother or sister in Christ with that.

And I don't think that's a complaint.

I think that has to do with accountability and listening to one another in that spirit of compassion.

So I think it, it makes a lot of sense to me.

And I don't, and I don't think that coming forward with what has happened is a complaint at all.

It's how we can more deeply become the body of Christ to one another.

Yeah, even when we wrong one another, we can best that in community.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Hey, guys.

Welcome to the Whole Church podcast, possibly your favorite church unity podcast.

I'm Joshua Nolan.

As you know, my normal job is just to introduce the greatest co host of all time, TJ Tiberius on Blackwell.

But work, work has held him back.

He might be the pot almighty, but outside of podcasts, he kind of, you know, his power level decreases.

Sorry about that.

But to make up for it, we're here with a fantastic guest.

Today I'm talking with Chantal Morales McKinney.

I'm terrible at names.

That's why TJ does all this stuff, talking about her new book, her newest book, Following Jesus Beyond Church Walls.

She's an Episcopal priest, church Planner, coach, consultant.

And her book details her experience with trauma and assault inside the church walls.

To see how she was able to follow Jesus outside of those walls while facing real pain.

Real stuff.

And we're going to be looking at today is like what happens after this?

Pushing forward.

What's next.

Shondal, thank you so much for joining me.

It's great to have you.

Thank you.

I'm honored to be here.

Thanks for having me.

Yeah.

And I'm sorry I don' have the co host who can pronounce names.

Sean is tall.

That's what I tell people.

Sean is tall.

Sean tall.

You got it?

I got it, I got it.

All right.

Well, guys, listening, we appreciate you all as well.

If you can consider going over to our website, purchasing one of our T shirts, it helps promote the show, raise money for all the podcasting needs that we have.

Gets the word out of the importance of our mission to educate, unite the modern church.

All kinds of stuff.

My favorite, not TJ's favorite.

He's not here to say his favorite.

The whole church Trinity knot.

So he's just got the whole church podcast on the front.

The back's got an Irish Trinity night and you know, a nice nod to some of the creeds.

So check it out.

The link for all that is in the show notes.

So, you know, read the description.

It helps.

Also consider checking out some of the other shows on the Amazon podcast network.

I am I Do Be Living Water.

So that's a My Dallas Christian kind of show over there.

We also have Systematic Ecology.

You want to see some cross reference with pop culture.

And then Brandon Knight has my seminary life.

If you want to see what he learned in seminary and what he's learning after seminary as a continuing student.

All that's a lot of fun.

We love Brandon.

We love all those shows and proud to be a part of the network here.

So, Chantal, we have a favorite form of unity in the form of a sacrament, the sacrament of silliness.

Actually, we always like to start off our shows with a silly question.

I'll answer first, give you a little bit of time.

Think about it.

Would you rather be a goose, a duck or a swan?

So I'm not talking about my favorite one, guys.

I have a lot of hate towards the ducks.

I'm just gonna air that out.

If you want to know why, it's not super appropriate.

So I'll have to tell you some other time.

I'll send you guys, a YouTube link if you message me, you know, this is a family friendly show.

But I think I'd be a goose and one of the gooses with like, like a weird beak, you know, Cuz like geese are kind of aggressive, like they're territorial, but they're not actually mean.

They're just really territorial and they just, once you leave them alone, they're like Shrek that get off my swamp.

And I feel like I don't want to be a goose with a weird beak, like one of those like big hump beaks, you know, that's what I'm going for.

Chantal, would you rather be a goose, a duck or a swan?

This is a no brainer for me because when I was growing up, went to Camp Pioneer every summer we went canoeing as an activity.

There were beautiful swans in the lake.

Graceful, graceful animals.

But man, you don't mess with a swan.

We had multiple experiences of swans jumping in the canoes, attacking.

I mean they were just graceful on the outside, but boy, you don't mess with the swan.

So I will choose a swan.

Nice.

Yeah, see, I didn't know they had the same aggressive tendencies.

I think the only wrong answer is ducks.

If you guys are listening, that was the incorrect answer.

If you were shouting that in your car, I'm sorry.

We'll pray for you as you confess your sins.

So there we go.

Moving on Though one thing we have found that really helps with church unity is to hear one another's story.

So we're just hoping that maybe you could take a little bit of time with us and just kind of share briefly how you came to the faith, became a priest, and eventually became the author of the book we're talking about.

Sure, thank you for asking that.

I was born and raised in the Episcopal Church.

My parents found the church that was my home church.

And it was a beautiful church.

I was active in it.

It was a beautiful opportunity to receive the best of Christian community and be a part of that.

I was an acolyte, active in the youth group.

We were always doing things for the community, participating in crop walk and cooking meals for the non profit that served folks with AIDS and beautiful worship, beautiful music in the choir.

So I did all the things and it was, I had a beautiful experience of church growing up.

I also wandered.

I explored a lot of world religions in college, did not do much with church in college and then came back.

I guess it was maybe my junior year.

I thought I'd done all this exploring with world religions.

Let me take, take a New Testament class.

And in that class we had an assignment to read, read a gospel all the way through, like a book.

And I remember sitting in my apartment as a junior, opening the Bible, reading it and I was just like, oh my God, I am in love with Jesus.

And it was just came back very alive for me.

I just felt a very deep connection with Christ, with the teachings.

And at that time I felt called to join, believe it or not, the black Gospel choir at my college.

So I tried out.

I was one of five non black people in 100 member gospel choir.

And we practiced and toured and I heard speaking tongues and we went to all these different African American churches on the weekend to perform.

And it just lit my faith on fire.

So I began the process and applied for seminary after I got out of college.

And I was ordained at the age of 24.

That was a long time ago.

And so I have served half of my life in the church as an ordained person.

And I essentially wrote my book.

I had the feeling of like, if I were to, God forbid, if I were to have cancer or if I were to die early, this is the book.

This is what I want to have come out before I die.

Like this is a very important part of my life, but essentially had to do with what, what happens when your faith shatters because of harm that you endure if your faith in the church shatters.

The way that my faith was rebuilt was much more expanded beyond the parameters of church that I was raised with.

And so my notion of God expanded, my faith deepened.

And so for me, it's a beautiful story of spiritual expansion while maintaining your Christian faith.

And so the way I wrote the book, being married with three kids and a full time job is a miracle in and of itself.

It took about five years to write the book and get it out.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, we've heard several times writing a book is not something you do casually.

It is so hard.

It is.

It was.

And hard to balance.

Hard to get how hard to balance life.

Hard to balance like showing up for your kids and your marriage and your vocation, your ministry or all the things and, and right.

It was hard.

And I'm so glad it's out.

So glad that this first one's out.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Actually did get a copy of it and I think I've read most of it.

I don't know if I finished because I have like 700 books, but I think I got close to finishing so I got to double check.

I have to double check on that one.

But no, you do talk about.

Mostly we're focusing on what we do next.

But you do at least touch on your experience with harassment and assault in the church.

You kind of mentioned it here.

What are you comfortable sharing about that before we move on?

Just going to give people context what we're talking about.

Sure.

So the first thing I'm going to say, because I think it's important to say, is there were years that I could not bring it up without crying.

And the reason that I'm even able to have this conversation with you with my voice not twitching, and it would be fine if it did, but that is the healing power of Christ.

I have experienced the ongoing healing power of Christ, and that's available to all of us all the time.

But essentially, this was over 10 years ago, before the MeToo movement and the senior rector in my church harassed me, sexually harassed me.

You can also consider it assault by definition of the way that he harmed me and threatened my job if I went forward.

And so then the story details.

I do a pretty good job of sharing what I want to share in the book.

And it's hard for me to go into detail, too much detail.

Vocally, it's like, I'd rather have people read it.

But what I want the reader, what I want listeners to know is the number one thing I'm hearing from readers at this early stage.

There's one phrase that I'm starting to hear again and again, which is, I had no idea.

People that knew me knew that I had been harmed in the church, but did not understand the repercussions and trauma that unfolds when you hear a woman say, I was harmed in the church.

And so part of the reason why I wanted to share my story is void vulnerably, as I did, was to make it crystal clear for the reader and or the listener of what harm looks like, how trauma is passed down, what happens when a church judges the woman, how it all unfolds.

What are the patterns, the systemic patterns of the institution that lead to that.

Then the only other thing I'll say is I intentionally do not name names in my book, not to protect the people that harmed me, but to point to the fact that this is a systemic issue.

Right now, I'm working with several women that have also been in the church.

And so part of my sharing my story is also to point to the fact that this is actually an issue in the church.

Yeah, yeah, I know you mentioned the MeToo movement, and I remember that for a time there was also the hashtag churchtoo was a thing.

And you know, not to take away from that, but larger scale.

You know, I know a lot of people too who are spiritual abuse in the church and different stuff.

And it's, I feel like it's particularly impactful and these people who are supposed to be your spiritual guides are harming you because that makes you question it's your fault.

Even more so than I feel like usual, which is already a thing.

And there seems to be this level of like, oh well if we out too much of this and people aren't going to trust the church and then people aren't going to find Jesus and then they're going to go to hell and it'll be my fault.

And it's like kind of victim blaming a little bit.

Yeah, you want to speak something to that.

Just like since we're talking about systemic issues, we want to move past it.

But like that seems to be to me the biggest problem is this.

We're protecting the church.

Yeah.

It's like the big, you know, the big fallacy is and, and I, you know, again, I'm working with groups of women that have, I've heard numerous one on one stories of women that have detailed terrible situations of harm and then when they go to report the harm, they often experience retaliation and victim blaming.

And the whole belief that unfolds is, but you're harming the church by speaking up.

So rather than cast blame on the individual that harmed someone in the body of Christ, we're casting blame on the victim for coming forward.

Which is wild.

I mean it is so harmful.

But it also leads to, to a furthering of the false understanding that church is the institution, church is the people.

Right.

I'm the church and you're the church.

Yeah.

And so whenever we're victim blaming we're saying, oh, but you're hurting the institution.

Right.

And the way that women that come forward and men and others are treated as liability issues, we're treated as though we're costing the church, we're embarrassing the church.

But in reality it needs to be turned around.

We need to be asking the question of why, why is the church allowing abusers to be leaders?

Why, why are they not the embarrassment?

Why, why are we not lifting up the women coming forward as courageous defenders of the faith, guardians of the faith as I name it in my book.

Right.

We have to, we need to like shine a Christ light whenever we encounter the shadow side and the sinful nature of the church.

So yeah, there's a lot of harmful beliefs that come to Light.

When we explore the way that women are treated when we come forward.

Yeah, I think obviously everybody has different ideas on hell doctrines, all that kind of stuff.

We've had episodes about that.

That's not what today's episode is.

Whole Church podcast, Whole church is included.

But one of the things that really stood out to me in Francis Chan's book Erasing Hell is he talks about how Jesus only really talks about hell to either rich people or religious people.

And then when you look at Paul, who he corrects is the religious people.

It's very seldom like you see Jesus, Paul or the disciples, like, all right, we're all going to gang up on the Romans now, you know, So I feel like it's strange, like that's the biblical precedent is we call out our own.

But now we're at a place where, oh no, we don't want to do that because then maybe people won't hear about Jesus.

Right.

Or something.

Yeah.

And in my book I kind of talk about.

It's almost like in the culture of church there.

There are aspects of the culture of church that I think are faithful to following Jesus, and there are aspects that are faithful to following empire.

And we're following Empire when we succumb to the belief that church is the institution but not the people.

When we expect people that have been harmed to keep quiet for the benefit of the church, that is, that's false.

We cannot do that.

So part of my purpose in writing a book is shining a light on that in and of itself.

I mean, I am, I'm very passionate about future church.

And the whole thing that it comes down to for me is we have to imagine and begin to take steps toward the future church that we want to become.

And there are certain things that we should agree on.

Number one is church should not harm people, not out loud and certainly not behind closed doors.

And it's absolutely happening that people are being harmed behind closed doors.

Mostly women.

Women are often treated as second class citizens in our faith.

Still, it's a patriarchal religion.

And so we have to start taking steps now to guard against that, to create a future church where people are not harmed.

And the first step toward that is shining a Christ light on it.

So that's what I'm trying to do in my book is to kind of raise a red flag and say, hey, we got to stop this.

I'm not the only one.

This is happening across denominations, it's happening everywhere.

And so to kind of call people to speak up with me so that we can change this for the better.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's interesting you say Future Church, because my brain, like, had to, like, stop, because we have some recurring guests on our show who are part of a Catholic organization that's called Future Church.

And actually they talk a lot.

A lot of similar things.

So if you haven't heard of them, they're doing some good stuff.

I'm sure they're open to collaborating.

And you know what?

I would love to look at that.

Thanks.

Yeah, they're awesome.

Yeah.

Actually, I can.

I can get you some names if you want, if you remind me later.

But, yeah, two.

I don't know.

You mentioned it's across nominations and stuff.

And I think that's really a big thing here for a long time, my Protestant friends.

Oh, that's a Catholic problem.

And it's because they have this hierarchy and they're using that to, like, cover stuff up.

That's right.

And then the Baptists, the Southern Baptists had this whole big scandal a few years ago, and now it's.

Well, it's because they don't have any accountability.

So it's like, maybe there's a good middle ground.

So I found it interesting, you coming from the Episcopal hearing that we still have that problem, even if we don't have the hierarchy of the Roman Catholics or the no real, you know, local autonomy of the Baptist, like, we.

That problem still exists outside of that.

So if the problem isn't just having the right, you know, accountability structure, what systemic solutions might there be if that's not it?

Yeah.

Well, first I'll say the Episcopal Church is very hierarchical.

There's lots of levels of hierarchy, lots of honorifics and names in front of names and fancy vestments.

And we love our hierarchy in the Episcopal Church.

I say that sincerely.

I don't mean that sarcastically, but in some ways, evangelicals have pointed to the harm in their church, even more so than progressive denominations.

Progressive denominations such as the Episcopal Church do a beautiful job at highlighting the need for justice as it pertains to immigration, LGBTQ issues, other issues that I'm a strong believer in.

But the church as a whole, not just my denomination, but as a whole, is much better at pointing at the sins of others than in looking at themselves with the spirit of humility.

And so all churches do have that issue because we are patriarchal as a culture.

Christianity has suppressed basic teachings and scriptures, even things that are absolutely in the Bible.

Woman Wisdom Sophia is in the Bible.

There are a lot of beautiful, feminine concepts of God and leadership that is feminine, that.

That does not get exalted or talked about in our culture.

So it does make sense that women would continue to be treated a different way and that men would continue to abuse their power as long as power is given, I think.

So you were asking, like, what do we do about that?

I mean, for me, I think it's important that hierarchical churches take on the notion of being guardians of the faith rather than just stepping into their authority.

I think the more hierarchical a church is, the better a chance they have of abusing the power and authority.

And unfortunately, I think that it also hierarchical churches can attract leaders that seek to abuse that power.

So I think inserting checks and balances is critical.

And I also think I'm a big believer in transparency and just simple transparency.

That when, when someone like me or a woman or an individual comes forward to report harm, we need to be very transparent with what happened.

We need to, we owe ourselves to be transparent to the people, to the church, to what we could have done differently.

So rather than mask and hide that we have a problem, that we're imperfect, we have ourselves have set up this whole facade of we are holy, therefore we are perfect, therefore we don't have problems, therefore we will hide the fact that we have problems and people know better.

I mean, I think part of the reason why women are disengaging at record numbers in the church is because we know better and we experience differently.

So when the church doesn't face their shadow side, then it invites those of us that have been hurt to walk away.

One out of three US Americans now are reporting church harm of some sort or another.

One out of three.

It's a massive number.

Yeah, yeah.

Sad.

Yeah.

I do think the accountability stuff's important.

I kind of wonder if maybe sometimes we focus too much on big scale things and we're like, if we just make this one big change that'll fix everything and not see some of like the there seems like, I don't want to call them microaggressions, but like micro sins.

I'm going to say of the church of like, you know, like you mentioned, they don't talk about female empowerment in the Bible of these female leaders or they don't talk about the female characteristics of God when God's called a mother.

I remember one time I attended theology beer camp and they had someone prayed and they talked Mother God.

And then I was like, oh, that made me so uncomfortable.

Like, yeah, well, all of this language is right there in Isaiah.

And I'm like, ah, it still made me so uncomfortable.

Because I've never heard that.

And then we mentioned future church.

I know this year one of the big things they were doing is pushing for an expanded reading on Easter Sunday.

You know, the Catholic church reads John 21:9 and it stops.

And then verses 10 through 18 are when Jesus is commissioning Mary Magdalene to be the first proclaimer of the Gospel.

And they said, okay, so why don't we read the whole.

Whole passage.

Right.

And I think maybe these micro changes might even make a bigger difference.

What do you think about.

I mean, I'm just throwing stuff out there.

Yeah, I, I would.

I. I think it's important to consider all.

I mean, everything big and small needs to happen.

And my guess, the thing I would want to say is sometimes I feel like the very notion of American Christianity is to programatize and to define and to own and to obtain and to achieve and to do.

And that's how what we do in our country.

But to follow Jesus centuries ago would be the pilgrim way, would be the one step in front of the other.

And I think that the problem is bigger than anything we can check off on a to do list.

And I think it begins with listening with people.

I mean, my own denomination would tell you all the things that they're doing to work toward reform for title four, which is the canon, you know, the trial process that you can, when you report harm.

But there is no checklist that fixes culture.

I mean, it really, at the end of it is not about something we achieve with what we do.

It's a change of heart.

And a change of heart happens only when we pause and listen to those that have been harmed.

I have listened now to multiple women and stories, and I'm still doing that every week.

I'm listening to stories of people that are coming forward.

And it's transformational.

What needs to happen?

Well, I wonder, it remains to be seen if the church will adopt a spirit of humility.

Is it.

The church needs to hold their hand out and say, whoa, wait, you all are one of us and we've hurt you and we want to listen to your stories.

And those stories hold the key to the changes that need to happen.

So to me, it's less about doing and more of a posture of being in right relationship and in community with those that have been harmed.

And what needs to happen will unfold naturally from listening, I guess.

So I'm with you.

I like that.

To me, the problem that I'm running into just thinking about it, I'm just talking out loud as I think of it.

I don't know.

I feel like I see what you're saying, and I do think it's a problem where churches check stuff off so they can say they did the right thing and nothing actually changes.

But I feel like if I had a church that said, oh, we changed, and we're going to start listening now, and I don't actually see anything being changed, done, that also seems like a pretty big red flag, right?

Yeah, it's both.

It's a both and.

But what should be done, what.

What needs to happen should flow from the wisdom that comes from the stories of people that are harmed there.

If, if someone were to read my book with an open heart of, let me.

Let me pay attention to all of the ways that harm took place in all of the levels of the parish level, the diocesan level, the interactions that happened between parishioners and Chantal, you would see.

See a lot of wisdom of ways that churches need to do things differently.

So how we change, yes, we do need to do the practical things, but let that flow from listening to the wisdom that comes from the people that have been hurt.

Too often what happens is the people in power are the ones that decide what sort of change needs to happen, and they've been insulated from the problem and.

Or they're part of it.

Right.

So that's what I'm suggesting is that there needs to be a relational aspect to it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah, I like that a lot.

So, you know, you mentioned, was it 1 in 3 people in America have experienced some kind of church hurt?

One in three is the statistic.

That's crazy.

Yeah.

And now I'm not.

That's not necessarily harassment.

That might be someone that grew up hearing that who they love is a sin and they turned out to be gay.

It might mean that a woman sat in church growing up and was always told she could never read scripture in church because she was a girl.

I mean, people have their own definitions of what it means to be limited or to experience church hurt.

But, yes, the statistic is 1 in 3 U.S. americans.

I know a lot of personal friends who, when they talk about church, hurt.

It was like a pastor, someone who was in charge of the church, basically belittled them or treated them in such a way that way they can kind of use them however they wanted.

And then whenever they stood up and said, wait a minute, you preach this, but you're doing this, they kind of lied about them, put them in an awkward situation, you know, whatever.

So, no, there's a lot of different Expressions of this.

Absolutely.

But one thing I hear people complain about a lot is that when someone hears that, oh, you've been hurt by the church, whatever, and someone's stuck in the church, they'll be like, oh, well, God didn't hurt you, people did.

Or, you know, whatever.

Which is insensitive, dismissive of their experience.

But some of your advice in the book kind of sounds a little similar because it's like, well, no, it's not that.

It's.

We need to have that connection with Jesus.

And yeah, maybe the people did hurt you.

I don't know.

I'd like.

I think maybe there's a truth behind that really awful, annoying sentiment, but it's just not expressed.

Well, how do you maybe explain the difference of like your take as a pair compared to that annoying cliche?

Yeah, so I get why it's annoying.

I think the distinction.

Let me say this, here's what I think the distinction is when we, when we are part of a church, we're Christian and we're active and we, and we kind of, we kind of willingly give away our autonomy and our authority to a church leader.

And we trust that church equals God.

And I think it's harmful to consider that church equals God perfectly because church are.

We are.

The church is made up of people.

I am part of the church and I am imperfect.

We are all imperfect.

And so church does not equal God.

Church can, at its best do their best to embody the love of Christ and be the body of Christ in community.

But because we're human, hurt does happen.

So I would agree that in my situation, and what I would encourage other people to think is God is not hurting people, but there are church people that hurt people, and people have a right to be hurt.

And that is church hurt.

But I think it's important to pull out the distinction that that doesn't mean that God or Jesus wanted you to be hurt.

So part of what I'm doing in my book is to invite the many people that have had to leave church and can't come back.

They don't feel at home coming back, or they never got the restorative justice or the AP that they longed for to imagine that Jesus is still there for them and they can still be a follower of Jesus even if they're, if they don't feel comfortable being a member of a denomination or church.

And that doesn't mean I'm anti church.

I work with churches.

I love the church.

I want work very hard toward ensuring we can have a nobler expression but the fact remains the church has done a terrible job apologizing for the harm that they've caused millions of people.

So.

And there's millions of 62% of the people that have left the church still articulate a belief in Jesus or God.

So to me, what that means is that we need to expand our notion of church.

We need to reclaim the notion of where two or three are gathered together in his name.

He is in the midst of them, because that can now happen beyond church walls.

Right.

So, yeah, yeah.

You mind if I ask you a kind of annoying theology nerdy question that you can either say, I don't know or I don't care about?

If you want.

Sure.

So, you know, we've had a lot of guests on.

We have a lot of people who follow the show who are either, like, open a relational theology or we even have some, like, hardcore Calvinist.

And I know some people take comfort in this whole, well, God couldn't have changed the outcome here because God's not controlling and he gives us freedom.

And knowing that God didn't allow that to happen bring some people comfort.

And some people, there's comfort in knowing that even though this terrible thing happened, whatever it may be, God is still in control in which is the best for them.

So people find comfort in both of those routes, and then they're like, well, the other way is harmful.

You know, whatever.

Do you think there's a good way of looking at God's culpability here?

Or do you think maybe that's just the wrong question?

How do I want to answer this?

I don't have a pat answer.

I'll start by saying that.

I also want to say that I think it's very human and normal to wonder and explore.

And in the very raw time of my life, when I was healing, I had a lot of questions of, like, how could this happen?

I felt very alone.

I felt abandoned even as I felt very connected to God out of desperation, out of surrender to God, because there was nothing left that I questioned all of that.

I am one that is comfortable with mystery, but there is no part of me that thinks that God wanted what happened to me to happen to me.

There's no part of me that believes that.

And when I felt very alone, when I felt that no one understood or that hardly anyone understood, I did believe in my core that Jesus understood me.

And I took great comfort in that, trying to think if there's something else I want to say about that.

Yeah, I mean, I just.

There's no part I Will say, I. I don't think that God caused it or wanted the harm that I endured.

But I believe that in God's greatness, God has used that situation.

God seasoned me for ministry in a time such as this, when women's stories are coming out, when women are beginning to talk about harm on governmental level, societal levels in the church.

And so I do believe that.

I do believe that God has equipped me to start speaking up and speaking out and rallying other women together and rallying the church toward, hey, let's not be last place.

I mean, we've got society that's beginning to speak out about the harm of women, and we don't need to be behind society.

I mean, harm is a really basic thing here.

So that's.

That's kind of what I want to share about that with my theology.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know.

I had an experience a little over a year ago now with my wife and dog Both got shot, and I almost lost both of them.

Oh, my goodness.

Yeah, that was a big thing for me.

Was just really struggling because I have all these people saying all these different things of what should be comforting to know God was in control of this.

And like, literally all of the options, I think kind of made me angry personally, because I'm like, why bother believing in a God or if he was in control, like, screw him.

There had to be another way to get this outcome.

Like, it made me mad.

I ended up just kind of finding a way to kind of let a lot of that go.

And I think they're good, important theological questions.

That's right.

But for me, it wasn't the right time to be asking those, I think.

Yeah.

And learning to just kind of be with God.

Exactly.

I think.

I like.

I like you use the word comforter.

And I think, you know, the great comforter is.

Yeah, I like that name for Jesus sometimes.

Yeah, for sure I do.

God was a great comforter for me.

And right now, it's funny.

It's like the roles of Christ are so incredible.

And God is comforter for me.

Was critical to me then.

And right now, I'm so moved by Jesus as one who stands in solidarity with those that have been harmed and hurt and aligns himself with the wounded.

And that empowers me to speak up, to speak up really loudly.

I want to, like, yell into the microphone for anyone that will hear.

People are being harmed behind closed doors in the church, and it's not okay.

And we can't say we believe in Jesus and not do anything about this.

We're hypocrites if we don't make this right.

Right.

Like, we have to fix this.

So I.

For me, right now, the value of solidarity is really critical as we.

As we seek to write ourselves.

Yeah, you know, I like that.

Yeah, I know.

I won't go down the whole rabbit hole.

But, like, it's interesting that I've heard, you know, you hear a lot of pastors who the Billy Graham rule or whatever they want to call it of, like, don't be alone with some of the opposite sex.

It's usually man pastor being told not to be alone with a woman.

And it's kept a lot of women from being able to move up in the church, all this kind of stuff.

And it's just kind of one of those.

I'm like, yeah, that doesn't seem like the right solution here.

One, why are we more concerned with people false blaming than people being victims?

And then two is the solution seems to be standing in solidarity, like you said, not let's distance ourselves further.

Like, that's not ever seems like the heart of Christ.

Like, it's, you know, be one as me and the Father are one.

It's confess sins to one another.

It's never avoid one another.

So, you know, we don't have these issues.

That doesn't seem to be kind of the heart of God.

I feel like.

Yeah, it wouldn't.

A lot of times the onus is on the woman rather than the man.

I mean, and when a person in power, the priest that was my supervisor is over me.

I mean, as I say in my book, there were times where he would find out, oh, he would see that I was leading worship by myself, and I was in the sacristy at this time.

And he would go there and you can't.

There are times where that's his example of people abusing their powers.

I mean, I think on the one hand, it's important to have safe church measures in place, but if we don't have the shift of heart that I was talking about earlier, then it's good for nothing.

And people that want to abuse their power will find a way to abuse their power.

And that's why it's still happening.

I mean, these are the leaders that the church elevates.

These are the leaders that often tend to climb the ladder, while the woman that faced retaliation for coming forward is having a hard time finding another position.

I mean, I can't tell you how many women I know have reported harm only to lose their job and have a hard time getting another job because they're reporting it.

So anyway, I think it's important to talk about safe church measures.

But like, listen, that's a drop in the bucket compared to some of the bigger issues that the church has related to.

Why are we elevating people in power that are abusing power?

Because they'll find a way.

They'll find a way to get around safe church measures.

Yeah, yeah.

You want to know more?

Definitely.

Read Chantal's book.

I also want to say if you want to hear more about like just what we're talking about, like how people are being harmed, because remember, again, it's not just Southern Baptists, not just Catholics, it happens everywhere.

But there's a podcast, explicit warning for the title of the podcast because some people don't like this word.

The podcast is called behind the Bastards.

I don't agree with everything they say, but they very clearly tell you how it happened and then paint this picture where like you could see where people were flagged.

The church took care of it the right way.

And then what happened?

The person just went to a different church.

Yeah.

And that's where like what you're saying with like, it's a heart problem.

I'm like, yeah.

Because even like the local autonomy, like that local church might have done the right thing, but it's still a problem.

So they just want somewhere else that would take them in.

And it's.

That happens in our church.

Yeah.

That is what's happening in multiple denominations.

But the other thing I'll say about my book is it is more than this story.

It's about what happens to one's spiritual journey in their faith when church is shattered.

Because there's a whole almost a paradigm shift of how we encounter Christ once church is shattered.

And that's an invitation that I want to express and to the millions of people that are no longer in church, that it's possible to follow Jesus in a way outside of church walls, very sincerely.

So until church gets its act together, gets those that harm out of leadership, understands what it looks like to apologize with humility, reassess their values, then millions of people will not go back to church.

And so what does it look like to follow Jesus behind church walls?

What are the paradigm shifts that people at home can encounter in order to renew a relationship in community with Christ?

Yeah, yeah.

And you know, we talked a lot about the church, church as a community, some of the systemic issues.

And I want to give you a chance to say anything else you might have to say about that.

But also I want to see if you could speak directly if somebody listening has experienced church hurt, or maybe they have a friend who no longer feels comfortable going into the four walls of a church.

What advice do you have for just individuals?

Yeah, thank you for the opportunity to answer that.

So the first thing I would say is that you should never feel guilty.

You are not obligated to go back to a church that has harmed you, particularly if they are not changing their ways and owning up to it in a transparent way.

We're not obligated to go back to churches that abuse us.

Number two, anyone can follow Jesus where two or three are gathered together in his name.

Jesus is in the midst of him.

And so there are ways to follow Jesus.

My book talks about this a lot.

And you can keep your faith while pulling yourself away of a church that harmed you.

But then, number three, on my website, chantalmckenny.com there's a tab under Community called Water and Light.

And Water and Light is kind of a movement that a group of us have started.

It's based on two Bible verses.

Let justice roll down like waters, and a light shines in the darkness, and the darkness does not overcome it.

And Water and Light is a movement and a network for and by people that have been harmed in the church.

So that we're not alone.

Church wants to silo those of us that have been harmed.

And we're building community with that, listening to one another's stories.

I'm about to start a couple of healing services for women.

There's cohorts that we're running.

There's a private Facebook group where people can share their stories anonymously because we actually need to change.

We're still needing to convince people that we have a problem.

And so if you're not sure that church has a problem, go to the Water and Light Facebook group and just read some of the stories that are there right now.

So.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Some good stuff.

Heavy stuff.

But.

Well, and.

But you'll see you haven't finished the book, but I'm telling you, the book ends on a really hook.

Full note.

I mean, I.

My own.

My own life, in my opinion, is like the power of the resurrection.

Right.

I experienced a personal crucifixion and resurrection, and the book takes that turn as well.

So it ends up being really hopeful.

So it has a happy ending.

Great.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I also do want to say I'm gonna do a plug for another podcast that I like.

Sorry, guys, but it's called Rev Covery Sarah Heath.

And I can't remember Justin's last name for the life of me.

Sorry, Justin.

Both great individuals, but it's for people who used to be in ministry who either had to step down or was hurt and then led that to stepping down or just, you know, whatever.

And it's just kind of finding, healing, finding a future past.

You know, there are a lot of people who were pastors or whatever, stood up for the right thing or for whatever reason they lost, left, have a really hard time finding jobs or moving past that.

So they do great work over there, too.

So if anybody's listening and wants help in that direction, go there.

Also, of course, check out Chantal's website and her book.

Chantal, is there anything else you think our listeners might want to know about you, your book, anything else we might have talked about or just.

Do you have anything else you want to share?

I would just say it's a heavy topic and I made it point of ending with resurrection.

The vibe is resurrection.

I have great hope for our potential to move past this stage of church and great hope in the potential of individuals to heal past it.

Everything that I do is interactive, so I invite the reader to engage with me.

There's, like, questions in the back of the book and there's lots of ways to engage with me on my website.

So look forward to hearing from, from anyone that's interested.

There's even a contact page on my website.

So thank you.

Yeah, yeah, of course, of course.

So, got a couple last things we do before we get to the end here.

And one thing we.

We like to ask everybody who comes on our show, if you just had to provide a single tangible action, something practical our listeners could stop and do right now that would help better engender unity in the church.

What's something you think people like regular Joe listening could just stop and do that would help in this area?

Yeah, I would say to go to my website, go to Water and Light, click on the link for a letter of support that was written by 17 women harmed in the church.

It's almost like a petition, and it's women that are seeking solidarity.

And I can't imagine for me a more nobler cause than unity in the church.

Church as it pertains to realigning ourselves with the many people that have been harmed in church and welcoming them back in, listening to their stories, embarking on A journey to take on the changes that we need to take so that we're not harming people.

So, yeah, sign the letter of support on my website.

That's the.

That's the act.

Yeah.

Well, I love it.

I love it.

If everybody took the time to do this, to read these stories, assigned to stand in solidarity, what do you think would change for these women, for our churches, and for the world at large.

If the church can move past?

What we need is a whole lot of people to wake up to the fact that millions of people are deconstructing their faith, are leaving church because church is hurting people, intentionally or not.

And so we need everyone that has a voice to speak up and to say in the name of Jesus, our church does not need to harm anyone else, and let's embark on a journey toward that.

And we need a course correct.

Right.

We need to course correct.

And so I think it's critical to do that, and I think it will help us to create the vital, thriving, healthy church that we know that we want to become.

Yeah.

That's how the church becomes salt, light and water.

Exactly, Exactly.

Yeah.

I love that.

I love that.

So one thing we do right before we end is share a God moment.

TJ likes to make me go first by not being here.

I think he's forced me into it.

He has been successful.

Guys, I'm sorry, Mine's gonna be a little bit of a downer, but it's just what's on my mind.

We had some pretty heavy news with my mother in law.

She's on hospice in the facility and things aren't looking great.

And just the challenge of how do you be there with someone in this moment?

How do you be with your family in this moment?

How do you juggle?

I still have to work.

We're gonna pay the bills and reading books for podcasts and doing all the stuff that we love and also taking serious what's happening.

And it's a lot.

And I feel like God's trying to give me strength and wisdom, and sometimes I accept it, and sometimes I'm like, ah, I felt the spirit moving that way and I didn't quite listen good enough.

So, yeah, that's.

Mine's a kind of a challenge of following the spirit in a moment that's kind of challenging to follow.

Yeah.

So, Chantal, sorry to make you follow such a bummer, but did you have a moment you like to share with us?

Maybe you've seen God in a blessing challenge, anything like that?

Yeah, a blessing for me would be, I Just love.

I love experiencing God in God's first sanctuary, which for me is the earth.

I love getting lost in the forest and experiencing God through nature.

I feel like nature is God's first creation, God's first sanctuary.

And it's a beautiful place to come home to.

And I say that because there was a time that it was hard for me to go into churches.

I was so hurt.

So I say that for people that experience hurt, that there's nowhere God is not.

It's a theme in my book.

There's nowhere God is not.

And so just to find the place that feels sacred to them and to reclaim that as God's place.

And for me, that's.

That's in the forest.

Yeah.

Beautiful.

Yeah.

I love the outdoors, so that's great.

I feel it.

I can't wait for summertime, personally.

Yeah, this year I'm just like, beach and pool, like, some tears.

It just hits me different.

And then I'm like, oh, maybe the woods.

And this.

This year it's beach in the pool.

I don't know what it is.

I'm ready for it.

That's awesome.

I am, too.

Yeah.

All right, guys.

Well, Chantal, thanks you so much again for joining us.

I actually have your website opened right now, so I'm gonna finish reading this and sign the petition as soon as we get off of here.

So I recommend everybody else do the same.

If you just enjoyed this episode, though, please consider sharing it with a friend, an enemy, or a cousin, especially your cousins.

Why do you have enemies?

I don't know.

Maybe your cousin is your enemy.

If so, share it twice.

Go to our website.

It's in the show's description.

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Let's other knows about the importance of our mission to educate, unite the church, all that good stuff.

So it helps us a lot.

Again, my favorite, the whole church Trinity knot.

Check it out.

I think it's worth it.

Also, it looks good in this, like, forest green.

And I. I just like a good green man.

Check out the other shows on podcast network, like My Seminary Life with Brandon Knight, the homily with Pastor Chill Will from Chapel Hill.

Be living water with me.

We hope you enjoyed this episode.

Coming up, we're going to have another roundtable discussion on evangelism and mission, mission work, missiology, whatever, other outreach stuff.

After that, we're going to have a short break for a week or two before we begin a series of behind the the scenes of ministries from the local church.

We might be looking at pew building.

We're going to look at what happens when a pastor gets ready for a sermon.

Feet washing, all kinds of stuff.

It'll be fun.

Publishing.

Yeah.

So hang in there for that.

He just doesn't know about it, so someone does have to tell him.

And we appreciate that.

Till next time,.

Sa.