“If you keep ending up with bad clients, that’s a you problem.”

Matt doesn’t sugar coat it, and honestly, he’s right.

In this episode we kick off our pre-construction series by talking about the building clients we refuse to work with, and why picking your client is one of the biggest risk controls in a construction business.

This is a practical chat for builders, tradies, architects, and homeowners who want a smoother build. We talk about why most client conflict comes from a lack of structure, unclear expectations, and messy communication. Matt shares his early filters like enquiry forms, a quick phone call, and a “first date” coffee, plus the red flags that tell him to walk away before the project turns into stress, scope creep, and constant tension.

If you’re a homeowner, this episode answers the real questions you’re thinking but not saying out loud. How do I choose the right builder?

What should pre-construction look like?

How do I know if we actually trust each other?

If you’re a builder, it’s a reminder that saying no is a skill, and that the relationship you build early is what protects you when variations, defects, and money conversations show up later.

CHAPTER MARKERS

00:00 Intro and the new pre construction series

00:04:00 Picking your client and why “bad clients” are a process problem

00:05:19 The first filters: forms, phone call, and setting expectations

00:08:08 New builders, people pleasing, and losing control

00:09:13 The budget reality check example

00:10:13 Saying no and the no dickhead policy

00:12:00 Defects, legislation changes, and why relationships matter

00:14:28 What Matt looks for in clients (gut feel, tone, trust)

00:24:06 What clients need to do

00:27:24 Walking away works for clients too

00:33:18 Mindful moment for young tradies

00:35:10 Have the money conversation early

Our Sponsors:

Pro Clima - https://mindful-builder.captivate.fm/proclima

MEGT - https://mindful-builder.captivate.fm/megt

Biz Tech Guru: https://www.biztechguru.com.au/

Wunderbuild: https://www.wunderbuild.com/

Connect with us on Instagram: @themindfulbuilderpod

Connect with Hamish:

Instagram: @sanctumhomes

Website: www.yoursanctum.com.au/

Connect with Matt:

Instagram: @carlandconstructions

Website: www.carlandconstructions.com/

We- we're changing things up on the Mindful Builder.

Um, firstly, huge shout-out to our massive sponsors, ProClima

Australia, who are patient with us.

They love us, I think.

I

don't think they're patient with us.

I think, I think they're, they're, they're enjoying the-

Yeah … they're enjoying the ride.

The rollercoaster.

The rollercoaster.

Um- I think I also want to make a big, uh, or give a big shout-out to

Kyle from Wilderness Build Co. Yeah.

Uh, today we are recording in his HQ in Fitzroy here.

Uh, and I think we'll possibly be recording a few more-

Yes … in this location.

This is now our part-time pro climber studio, uh- Lucky,

lucky- Bu- built to last studio

lucky, lucky Kyle uses ProClimber.

Yeah.

So Ham, we had a chat a few weeks ago, or a few months ago, about

just changing some things up.

I, we both felt what we were doing was a little bit stagnant.

Um, it was good, but we can always do better.

Well, I, I don't think stagnant's really quite, quite the right word.

I think that what we decided to do was get a little bit of structure around, uh,

like a series of podcast, um, episodes.

So over the next few weeks we are going to be focusing on pre-construction.

And we're gonna go deep into every aspect.

Yeah.

So, yeah.

So we're gonna be bringing people on.

We've got Cameron Munro coming in.

Yep.

We've got Brad from Bamby Build Co coming in.

We've got a building surveyor coming in as

well.

Yeah, doing surveyor, lawyers, insurance, a number of architects.

Uh- Yeah … you're gonna hear a lot more from just Hamish and I as well, actually.

And Ben from Accada doesn't know this yet.

He's coming

on.

But Ben from Accada's gonna be coming on.

Yeah.

Maybe we should let Ray chat to him about

his coming on.

Yeah.

So we want to take everything from the moment a client reaches

out to us to the moment we get on site and everything between.

So from model early to model often, uh, understanding your insurance, what

an architect wants from a builder, understanding what our roles as

builders responsibilities are, what the responsibilities of the architects

are, uh, what we look for when we go onto a site for the first time, how

to deal with clients, getting that first number, understanding estimation.

So what we want to do is provide this holistic view of

everything before you get on site.

So if you're a client, an architect, a builder, a tradie, even just

someone learning or starting their business, you have a huge amount of

information that you can just draw on from Hamish and I. We're pretty much

just gonna unlock all our secrets.

Yeah.

And- And, and, and I guess just full disclosure, what works for mine and Matt's

businesses- Yeah … or what even works for my business, there's gonna be slight

differences in how Matt approaches, but I think just generally speaking, some of

the main talking points that we're gonna go through, I think can be adapted to

pretty much any construction business.

Yeah.

And we're pretty much, like Hamish and I speak a lot behind the scenes

with each other about business stuff, and we're kind of just

bringing that to this conversation.

Yeah.

And his stuff he does that I love, that I really want to

implement, and probably vice versa.

And we, and, and, and it's sometimes we do the same thing, but I might

do something slightly different.

Hamish does something different.

But together when you combine them, they actually become, uh, this

huge, um, cascading event that will just really improve something.

So-

Well, and even to the point of us talking about, and I'm not gonna name

the company, but even us talking about a, an external- person that we use.

Yeah Uh, we're both using his business, and both of us are having

different experiences with it.

I'm absolutely loving it.

There are things that you'd wanna change- Yeah … which is totally

fine, but the process and the workflow is exactly the same.

Yeah.

A h- and that's the thing, and I think that's what's important.

We wanna b- we just wanna, we want you as a listener to get more out

of what you're listening to than us waffling on on some technical jargon.

We want something tangible that you can take away and potentially

implement in your business.

But also I think if you're an architect or a consultant, you're

gonna understand more how builders operate, and we wanna investigate how

you guys operate so we can understand what we can do better to assist you.

Yeah.

I think it's everyone knowing their role.

Like, we look at sport at the moment, everyone plays a role, especially in AFL.

Like- Oh,

look at the Melbourne Football Club.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Everyone knows their role-

Yeah … better, don't they?

And I th- and I think that's a really important thing, and it's something

that's in my early documentation, is, like, who's responsible for what?

Um, whilst we build a house, we, we don't comment on design, and these

are the conversations I wanna have.

But today's topic, uh, it's picking your client, and it's a really interesting

conversation because the biggest thing that I hear from builders and,

uh, architects and, "Oh, the client sucks" and, "Oh, we just don't get

along," I think that's a you problem.

Oh, 100%.

I think that's a you problem.

Uh, I, I think that's not a client problem.

I think that's a you problem.

And I have the best relationships with my clients and I, I haven't

had, there's been in the past of some jobs that I haven't had the greatest

relationships with them, um, before.

I was like maybe 10 years ago that, and it's 'cause I didn't know what

I didn't know, and it was a lack of process, a lack of lack of structure.

Yeah.

But what I know now is we get so many amazing clients that they just keep

setting the benchmark for the next client.

Yeah.

And I think it's also important too to understand that, um,

most people like structure.

Yeah.

And if you're a young builder and you don't have a really well-structured

ECI or early involvement or pre-construction process, of course

the client's gonna get annoyed.

Of course the client's gonna be confused-

Yeah

… because you're not setting the expectation.

Like- You're the, you're the expert

… you're the expert here, so, you know, your clients are looking to you to

understand what the next steps are.

So I challenge anyone that's listening to this episode now, have a really

good think about what the workflow is in your pre-construction process.

Yep.

' Cause you need to then be able to communicate that really

clearly to your clients.

So one of the first things we do, we have, someone fills out a form

on our website, they get a reply instantly for a second form to fill

out that's a lot more detailed.

There's two important questions I have on there.

Have you built before?

If it's a no, they know nothing about building.

Yeah.

And that's so okay.

Um, I think that's a really, really good question to ask because

what it does is you- You, you know, you know where they sit.

If they've built before, they might have a little bit more understanding,

um, if they've built three or four times, why are they finding

a different builder each time?

Yeah.

Is it, you can find out more there.

But ultimately, I wanna know that, uh, what level you sit on so we can

have a really good conversation, so we can start to educate you.

Because if I go into any other industry, if I went into marketing

or, um, medical or whatever, I don't know what they're meant to do.

That's not my job.

That's, they're, they're the experts.

So I think when people come to you, you're the experts, and you need, you need to

take them on the ride and it's, and it's, and it's an emotional ride, building.

And, and r- asking that, we, we've got that question on our form as

well, and asking them questions has another layer to it as well.

Because if they have built before-

Yeah

… ask about what their experience was.

Yes.

What you liked, what you didn't like.

Exactly.

You know, if it was really good, then ask the question, why aren't

you using the other builder?

And there might be reasons that they don't build anymore- Yeah … or, you

know, they moved to the state or whatever.

But if they've had a bad experience, understanding what the pain points were-

Yeah

Trying to, well not, not convince it, but ed- then educate the clients around

how you're then gonna run your process.

Yeah.

I always ask the question once, well, further down the track, what scares you

the most about working with a builder?

Yeah.

And you can get some really good answers out of that because if they've had a

previous builder and they've, there's problems that they've had wrong, like you

wanna know that so you can cater to them.

And sometimes you g- might be like, "Actually no, that builder was probably

on, right. You might've been wrong."

Yeah.

But you at least can set an expectation early because like anything you go into,

any relationship or any form of, anything you do in life and the moment you walk

in, the first impression is everything.

Yeah.

So you want, you wanna, you wanna provide that to the client, so, um-

You, just before we move on, you, you touched on something, you, you brought

something up there really quickly that maybe they were in the wrong.

Yeah.

I think it's really important- Yeah … to call out because

it's setting expectations.

Yeah.

Uh, 'cause sometimes when, you know, clients, clients are clients,

and we're very much like you.

We've got these amazing relationships with clients, um, and ongoing post

project- Yeah … relationship with the clients because we're setting,

well, I think we're getting better at setting clear expectations.

We're getting better at communicating.

There's a process.

Because, but there's a process around it, and really understanding

what the pain points were.

Yeah.

And then re-educating or educating the clients from day one is so important.

Set the expectation that you are there as the expert, that you know the

answers, that you're going to guide them through this pre-construction process.

And this is hard.

If you're starting out for the first time running a business, this is any

business really in the world that's some form of consulting or, um, client-facing.

That, I put you into two baskets.

You're starting a business, you don't wanna lose that client, so

you do everything to please them, and you're gonna do stupid things.

I've done it before, Hamish has done it before, and you are going

to lose control at one point.

Could I, can I s- uh, a little bit- And I've done it.

I'm, I'm gonna give you a little bit of an anecdotal, um, example here.

So I was on the phone to someone, I'm not gonna say who they are, and I

think they listen to this podcast- Yeah

so they're gonna know that I'm talking about them.

Uh- We should just name names.

No, I'm not going to.

The podcast that names names.

I'm not going to.

Um, young builder, a great fellow.

I know he's a good carpenter.

Yeah.

Um, you know, just on this journey as be- as being a, being a builder, and

he's asking me questions around, um, the flat roof system for Pro Clima.

Yeah.

And I just, I was unpacking the project a little bit more.

I'm like, "Okay, cool.

So it's just going into a box gutter into a parapet?" "Yes." "Okay, cool.

Well, there's the thing that you probably want to think about." And

then I'm like, "Okay, well this sounds like a really nice architectural home.

What's the budget?"

And he's like, "900,000." I'm like, "Okay, how big is it?" "270 squares." Oh,

geez.

And I'm like, "Okay, so that's a $1.5 to $1.6 million project. Uh, I actually

think that you're solving the wrong problem right now." Like, you're trying

to solve a, a, a technical problem, which assumes that you've costed the

project first, that assumes that you're quite down the path of an ACI process.

You're actually solving the wrong problem right now.

Like, all of that stuff can get solved later, but the question that you need

to be asking your client right now is, how much do they wanna spend?

Because right now, their $900,000 budget's not gonna touch the side of this building.

And you've jumped the process there.

You've jumped

the process there.

You're excited.

Yeah.

And that's why they're so,

they're so normal.

Yeah, and I said exactly the same thing.

You're excited.

And I only bring that up because setting expectations from the beginning with

clients is really important, and if you don't feel that you can or have

really candid conversations with a client from day one, then they're

not gonna be the client for you.

Yeah, and, and, and w- which leads me to my point is, like, don't be

afraid to walk away and say no.

Exactly.

Yeah,

yeah.

Because, well, and, and I joke with clients, as much as a client

picks us, we also pick them.

Yeah.

And it's, and it's like any relationship.

You, it's gotta be mutual.

It should never be one way and, um,

uh- Well, just on that, I know I've talked to you about this before.

In my, at the start of my ACI, there's this, you know, couple of

nice little words at the beginning of it, and then it says, uh, "And

we have a no dickhead policy." Yeah.

"Congratulations, you're not a dickhead." And, and it's true, 'cause

I, I don't wanna be waking up every morning dreading dealing or, or, or

having conversations with clients, 'cause not only are we dealing with

them during the design process, during construction, but for 10 years after.

You got them, you've got them in your hand for 15 years.

Yeah.

Like, we just had one we finished, two years pre-construction, two years on site-

Yeah

… now 10 years sign-off.

Yeah.

So you need to look at it.

The, the 15 years is a huge amount of time.

Um, and I think that- I- it's really important to be able to develop that

relationship with the client where you can laugh, you can cry, you can show

emotion, you can have hard conversations.

Um, I, I think that's, I think that's something where I've learned over time,

is saying, saying no's literally one of the most powerful things you can do.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

And even if you had a contract you're about to sign, and I've done it before

myself because I was, had an amazing job with the same situation and I'm

like, "I'm out," because one, I saw issues with the contract, I just

felt the client trust wasn't there.

Yeah.

And ultimately it's the best decision I've nearly made as a business because, uh, I

knew that I would've had a higher level of anxiety, my team wouldn't have wanted

to be there, then everything starts to drop and fall, and ultimately it could

have been gone back to start and said no.

Yeah.

And, and- And applied to another job and failed

and it unravels really quickly- Yeah … uh, during construction,

particularly towards the end-

Yeah

… when relationships are really strongly frayed.

Yeah.

Um-

And, and legislation has now changed in Victoria where it's consumer first.

So as of July 1, the, they can bypass you for a defect and go straight

to the DPC to investigate you.

So relationships matter more- More … than ever.

One, 100%.

And just on that, if the, if a client ever calls you about a

defect, pick up the phone and get around there as soon as possible,

regardless if it's your fault or not.

Yeah.

Just t- fuck

you, send

me

photos

on it, we'll know- You, you, you want to be there straightaway.

Hey, Matty, I've been talking to a few people recently, and they're like,

"You know what? You've been building with Pro- Proclima for years. Like,

how do we get to where you are?"

So we all started at level zero at one point, and we got there.

But one of the things that Proclima have on their website is they have

a library of so many details, from wall to roof to subfloor to window

assemblies, for multiple different windows, on how to use their product

and install it correctly, and is one of the, the best resources that you can

find online to learn how to do this.

And if you're an architect and you're not sure how to draw something, they've

probably got the answer already.

And I think about, you know, 2018, 2019 when we've, we, we first started

getting into this, we had to trawl through all kinds of different documents.

We had to

make it up.

We, we, we had to make it up.

It's all there for

you.

Yeah.

The answers are free now.

And social media's great, there's so many awesome videos and content

out there, but the ultimate source of truth is the Proclima website.

They have every single detail that you can imagine.

And you know what?

If they don't have it, you can email them and they'll help you solve it.

Damn right.

So use Proclima, proclima.com.au if you need to reach out to them.

Hey, I'm about to go on a journey with systems, and I'm working

with James from BizTech Guru, who he was a guest on our podcast

He was, and I've actually done a lot of work with James in the past, and

it has transformed my business from just being this classic clusterfuck

of a building company to a systems orientated focused business And

what he's, from understanding, it's all focused on builders Yep

And we're going to be doing a live webinar with him coming up- Yep

as part of this, and it's gonna be a big introduction to systems and

how it can improve your business

And you know the beauty about it?

It is gonna be absolutely free.

Yeah So keep an eye out for the dates.

Uh, this is gonna be a really incredibly valuable workshop to not miss out on

Yeah, so either shoot us a DM, um, check the show notes, but we'll put a link

below here to show you how to sign up.

So- Cheers … make sure you sign up

I'm gonna ask you a question.

What are some of the things that you look for in clients?

Um, it's hard because I have- I'm a very gut-feel person.

Yeah.

I'll, so for my process, for example, is I, you'll send a

form, I'll send you a form back.

Within that form is embedded i- is a link to book in a 15-minute chat

with me that's linked to my calendar.

I just jump on the phone and have a chat.

Yeah.

That is the first thing.

Within the first 20 seconds, I can gauge if you're for me or not, just,

just the conversation and, um, the way that you, the… It's not body

language 'cause you're not in person, but the, the, the tone of the voice.

Yeah.

That, that is a big thing for me, and at that point I'm like, "Cool.

Yes, no." There's another, a few other metrics, like location.

Is it high performance?

Uh, the loca- yeah, location, um, budget.

Those, those sort of things need to tick, and let's ignore those for a second.

But the second part, once you get past that meeting there, they will get a

link to book in a coffee near my office.

They come to me, and we sit down and have a coffee for half hour,

45 minutes, and that is simply a… It's not about the project.

I wanna know you.

I call it the first date.

Um, it's actually, I think it's booked in, this is my calendar,

it says, like, our first date.

So I wanna know you because as, as… I need to know you're a person.

Like, bring the kids, both of you.

Anyone that's, the stakeholders involved in the project need to be there, not

just the husband or just the wife.

I want everyone because I don't build for one person in a

relationship, I build for two.

And, and is there, is there certain, uh, I guess, personality traits or,

uh, job traits that you're looking for?

Yeah, don't tell me how to do my job.

So I, that, that you can get… When someone's telling me how I've

built before, "I've done this and this is how you're gonna do it," and

I'm always like, "Hey, slow down.

Like, you've come to me for a reason.

We're not there yet, but I'll take control of that." And if they keep

pushing on that, I'll, it's a red flag.

I've, I've literally had a meeting before as a coffee, halfway through it, I've

gone, "Hmm, I just don't think you're for us. I'm just gonna call it now,"

and got the bill and left because they, they, I just didn't warm to them and-

Yeah … I already felt anxious, so.

It's really important as well because, like, I, I like to think about,

um, the pre-construction phase as the relationship building phase.

It's dating.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's, it's, it dating, and, and you get to test the relationship-

Yeah … along the way.

Yeah.

For us, the first test is that- Uh, do they fill the application form out?

Yeah,

they don't want to go home and sleep with him on the first date.

Well, 'Cause if, 'cause if, i- in my experience, if someone's

pushing back on filling out a form-

Yeah, I-

then it's gonna be challenging.

So, so but the thing is, you can't not do that with me.

Um, you have to fill the form to get to me.

Yeah.

So and even if you have people call office number and we'll direct

them to the website to fill it out.

Yeah.

Um, architects, yeah, we'll direct you to, uh… Look, that can be a little

bit challenging at times because I need the client to fill it out and

understand that the architects have a process, and we do try fitting with

the architect process, and that's where it can become a little bit murky, but

ultimately we need that form filled out.

It's one so we can put it on our CRM system- I, I don't- … so we can track it

… I don't mind if the architect fills it out.

However-

Yeah

… the, the, the phone call is with the client.

Yeah, yeah.

I have to speak to them.

Yeah.

Yeah.

100%.

I'm, I, I, if I'm, if you're a client, another thing, probably

one of the biggest things-

if you're a client and you want me just to hand over the key at

the end of the project, you're not gonna be there, I'm not for you.

Yeah.

Like, I wanna become part of your family.

So, uh, I want you to know my family, know who my wife is,

and my kid, uh, and the dog.

Mm. And like, I want you to know those sort of things.

So we, we're just, and, and this is not to exclude anyone else that doesn't

fit into this kind of perfect avatar client of mine, but I've actually, in

the past, some of my best clients have been either business owners, so busy

business owners, or medical professionals.

Oh, I love lawyers.

Lawyers are my favorite.

Well, so b- busy professionals- Yeah.

Yeah … busy, busy business owners or medical professionals.

I just find that, um, generally speaking, and again, I've got plenty of other

clients- Yeah, yeah … that don't fit into this category, so please don't think

that if you don't then, um, that, that we're, we're, we're not a builder for you.

It's more I'm speaking to the builders out there who are listening

to this and following along.

Yeah.

That I think it's really important that you figure out what your avatar is.

Yeah.

' Cause then you can train your marketing to that a little bit more.

100% agree.

So, you know, if I say to myself, "All right, well, I want to be

focusing on surgeons," right?

Right.

Because they're busy, they, they get health, they- Cash

cows I didn't say that, you did.

Um, yeah, and look, budget's a thing too.

No, no, yeah, yeah.

But budget is a thing too.

I'll just be realistic.

Yeah, that's fine, but I'm, maybe I'm not as explicit as that.

No,

exactly.

Um, but you know, they're busy, they're conscientious, um, and they also

trust in the fact that we're- Experts

experts.

Yeah.

Uh, and again, if you're a client out there, please don't think that

I'm not gonna build for you if you don't fit into this category.

We're just finding in our experience- Yeah … some of the best clients

we've had are busy professionals, medical professionals, who understand

and val- and value- It's, yeah

and value time.

Yeah.

That's the other big thing for me.

Um, yeah, as, I'm just more speaking to the, the builders out there trying to sort

of work out who their ideal client is.

Get that down on paper.

Who are some of the people that you've- Yeah … dealt with in the

past who were awesome, and what are the characteristics of that?

And how can you tailor your marketing to that?

Yeah.

And I, and that's something that I did years ago- … and

still continue to tweak on.

So you wanna look at location because most- Totally agree … you don't wanna

be travelling all across Victoria.

Locations,

lo- location.

Locations.

Um, you wanna look at, like, age demographic.

Like, there's no point marketing towards a 21-year-old because most likely,

unless they're a crypto king, they're not gonna be building anytime soon.

Yep.

That you wanna, you wanna pick the people, like, so for me, I'll

be honest, it's a mum and dad.

Like, I love, uh, I love families.

Actually, I, I don't mean that as a- Yeah

as a, um, the s- the standardized person.

So I, I want a family.

That, that is big for me.

I do like younger people because they're more my age, so I feel like I can

click with them a little bit better.

Having said that, I've got some a lot, clients who are a lot older.

Um- There,

there, there's, there's this, you know, and I think regardless of age, regardless

of profession, like if you're a builder out there listening to it right now, find

something in common with your client.

Yeah.

Because that commonality, one, breaks down so many barriers- Yeah … so you

can actually have a conversation outside of the nuts and bolts of building, but

you can actually build a relationship.

So find something that you like doing.

I've got a, you know, and I know Hamish, my client, listens

to this, he goes surfing.

I love surfing.

I joke about when, when we finish this home that I wanna, I wanna

still be able to whip down, have the key to a shed and go out surfing.

So it's just finding something that you've got with the client that you can

talk to outside of building, because that relationship building's so important.

And that's why I go back, it's dating.

Like, you… And clients should date multiple builders and multiple architects.

Like, find who clicks for you.

We're all gonna be the same price, as within a, like, we're gonna be so close.

Yeah.

But it is who you feel that you are just gonna click with, and sometimes

I'll say, "I might not be for you and I might not be the best option for you."

Yep.

And that is so okay.

A- and do you know what?

We have experienced something between us, uh, with a client.

Yeah.

They ended up choosing you, and it was, it was a really interesting experience

because we got on great with the client.

Yeah.

We had a great relationship with the client, and the

client ended up choosing you.

And I remember when she called me, I could tell that she was quite nervous,

and I go, "Look, at the end of the day, I know you're gonna get an amazing

result working with Matt. If you feel you have a better connection for

whatever reason, go with Matt." Yeah.

"That's fine." And, 'cause that's really important, 'cause if there's

something about me or there's something about my team that you didn't like

but preferred it in Matt, choose Matt.

I just lost out a job to death.

Like-

Oh, there you go

… it's, so she, she obviously clicked with them better and

that's, I would 100% support that.

Yeah.

I think that we really just need to make sure that, that it's, it's such

a big thing and, um, I had, I had a potential client chatting to me

the other day and they've got three architects they're looking at, and

they can't work out which one to pick.

And I said, "They're all, they're, they're all the same cost." I was

like, "Well, who do you like the most?" And they said which one.

I was like, "There's your answer." There's your

answer,

yeah.

Like, what are we talking about here now?

Um, you've got to really think about this from a, a different perspective.

And you, you've got a relationship with them and it's who you can be honest

with and trust and who's gonna tell you the most correct information and,

um, you feel that is gonna be open and transparent with you the most.

And they're just such key things that you, you get them wrong, you got 15

years ahead of you that just, you just don't wanna be thinking about.

That, that can be, most people, what- A quarter of their lifetime?

Hame, I think

it's been the biggest game changer in my business since building a passive house.

I could not agree with you more.

Now, we're obviously talking about Wonder Build.

Yeah.

And, and we know a lot of builders using it, and honestly, it's one of the biggest

questions we get on social media is, what is it like being on Wonder Build?

And honestly, it's a real hard answer to give because it's

just transformed everything.

It's one place for everything, and it's at a point now where I

haven't got 15 or 16 different apps to run my business for my team.

We're nearly down to one.

Yeah, it's incredible.

From your initial estimates all the way through to project management, Wonder

Build, one-stop shop, absolute no-brainer.

Yeah.

Even our leads, we're now sending our leads through there so we can track

clients the moment they reach out to us.

So track your variations, which we know builders struggle doing, your

costings, sending out quote requests.

It has everything and they're one of the best teams at implementing

future things to improve the system, and it's also now integrated

into Claude if you're big on AI.

Yep.

Game changer.

Wonder Build, get on

it.

Yeah, so sign up wonderbuild.com

So I'm just gonna change tack a little bit and ask you a question.

What are some of the things that you expect your clients

to do during pre-construction?

Trust us.

That's number one, just trust us.

And loop everyone.

Don't hide information.

Don't be the gatekeeper, like we are.

So I don't want you to gatekeep budget.

Don't tell us you've got a $1 million budget when you've got two and a

half, because that makes it really, really hard for us at that point.

We're, we're not incentivized to get this higher.

We're actually incentivized to get it down so we get it on site faster.

Well, you're,

you're incentivized to build it.

Yeah.

So the quicker I can get on site, the more profitable the project is.

So because we chew up a lot of time in that early stages of just time.

So I… That is, that is one big thing.

Um, I think, trust the people around you, ask the right questions, and

don't be afraid to ask a question.

Like, no question is a dumb question.

I'd rather you ask the question, and even if you think it's stupid, I

answer it, and then you're at ease.

Yeah.

Um, I think that's a big, big thing, is just… Yeah.

What have, what have you got?

Well, I mean, I, I think about, like, the people that are

involved in pre-construction.

Mm-hmm.

So obviously, we've got the client, we've got the designer, and, or the design

team, which would include interiors as well, and then you've got the engineer,

and then you've got thermal modeling, and then you've got the builder.

Yeah.

Like, you can't gatekeep information from one to the other.

Mm-hmm.

Like, there needs to be free-flowing conversations between everybody.

Yeah.

Because, uh, and sorry, I forgot the, uh, landscape designer

as well, and the landscaping.

Just get your team.

Everyone who you think is necessary on that project.

So the communication, n- a- and, and I'm not saying share everything, 'cause

sometimes conversations from the landscape is not relevant to the interior designer.

So just be conscious of, of that, of, of just CCing everyone into an email and

just assuming everyone needs to know.

Be conscious of who needs to understand what, and not, and, and don't gatekeep

information from one to the other.

Yeah.

Or don't put one against each other.

Yeah.

And don't… So this, it kind of flows in well.

So because I did a r- a bit of a review with my team recently about a project we

just finished that was an ABIC contract.

Now, I've done them before.

The, the feedback I got from my team that was, they didn't feel as close

with the client because everything had to go through the architect.

Now, it's interesting, because the client felt they had the closest

relationship with us, and we felt we had a very good relationship, but I

didn't feel like it was as close because noth- not everything went through us.

So it really started to open my up and I looked back at other ABIC

contracts, and I didn't feel that was the same in those other ones.

Yeah.

But I felt- In that form of contract, I've, I've started to r- ask the question

is like, because we've got to send everything to the architect, and that's

fine, and then negotiate them, I just felt there was just this like, it was like a

bridge you had to get over every time.

Well, it's not, it's, and it's not free-flowing either.

No, it's, yeah.

And you don't know what's been said, and you, you gotta put a

lot of trust in the architect.

And I felt that that was a, a part, and it had nothing to do with the build

or the contract, it was the fact that like, from the relationship of how we

pick clients, I felt that was a barrier.

Yes.

I, I agree with you.

And, and, and it was strange.

Like, I, I, um- We still, and we still spoke to them multiple times a week.

Uh, it's just, I d- I don't know why, it was just feedback that I had from

multiple team members individually.

Yeah.

And they, I don't know if they talked about it together, but that was something

that I was like, "Okay, interesting."

Um-

So trust, budget.

Have we got anything else?

Because I, I think the-

Location

… location.

And the biggest thing is just, yeah, don't be afraid to walk

away, um, because you will get hurt, you will waste a lot of time

potentially.

And that, you know what?

And that goes the same for the client as well.

If, if the client's not feeling it- Yeah

don't feel like you're, you're locked

in.

No, this is, it's, it's like, yeah, again, I said it multiple times

today, it's like a relationship.

Like, it's, you need to be able to have a very, um, robust conversation at times.

You, times you're gonna laugh and cuddle, and times it's not gonna be

fun conversations, and that's what a normal, healthy relationship looks like.

If you can't, if you're not in a position as the builder or the client

to have a challenging conversation-

Yeah

… then the relationship's not strong.

Yeah.

Because if you think about, think about the emotions that are involved in

pre-construction, and then think about the emotions that are involved once big

chunks of money's coming out of your bank account and decisions are for real.

Like, they are tangible.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like, you need to be able to test that relationship in pre-construction,

challenge relationships in pre-construction, challenge decisions,

challenge cost, challenge budget.

Location's not something you can challenge.

But, like, if you think about, like, being able to test that relationship

over a six to 12-month period, when you get to construction, like,

the relationship's been tested, 'cause there's going to be times-

Which is almost the hardest part

well, there's gonna be times during construction where

variations will come up-

Yeah

… that are unforeseen.

Yeah.

And they're never nice as a builder to have that conversation with a client,

but, you know, if we find a big rock in the ground, it's not our fault.

You've already got that rapport.

You've already got the

trust.

That's what I'm, that's what I'm saying.

Yeah.

One of the things I look for, actually, is, can I just sit with you on a Friday

afternoon and have a, like, have a drink?

Can we go, can we go for a drink?

And not that I do, it's, it's there, could I classify you as a friend?

Yeah.

And I think that is a big one, because it shows that you click.

Are you my type of person I just hang out with?

And I'm thinking now in my head of all my clients right now, is I

can't think of one in the last eight years that I wouldn't just do that.

And I think that is, I have, like, for me, I know you have a different rule.

I won't build for friends and family.

You will.

Yeah.

But I, I want to, would you be a friend?

Would I, would I consider you, I probably consider most of my clients

that you don't become clients, you actually become someone in my life.

Do, do you know why I can build for friends?

Okay.

'Cause I treat my friends exactly how I treat my clients.

Yeah, okay.

And, and I'm just very clear about, okay, w- we're, you're, you're

coming to me because you perceive that we do a good job I know we do a

good job and you trust in what I do

I think it's a financial thing.

I just don't want to be chasing an invoice from them.

I think that's my biggest fear.

You know, I've never had an issue.

Yeah.

And, and I probably wouldn't expect to.

It's me.

I've had, I've

had,

I've had one, I had one issue over the years, um, and I just know there

was some stuff going on, so I kind of was a little bit, um- I was a

little bit more lenient with it, but I, I, I love building for friends.

I love being able to go back-

Yeah, okay.

But I feel like I go back and one thing we do now, and actually Jack from, uh,

now MBH, he messaged me because we put this, uh, one of my team put it on social

media, end of the project, my whole team go to the handover and he's like,

"I love this." And so that is probably how I can sum up, sum up a good project.

If my whole team are wanting to go to a handover at the end of a project, and

they can have the chats to client about anything, like we're in the handover,

we didn't even talk about the build.

We're talking about the footy and the kids and what they're watching on TV.

That is how I define a good relationship.

When I'm talking to you as a client and I'm getting a message from you at 9:30 at

night, not about the build, being like, "Got a good TV series?" I, I classify-

Yeah … that as, as, as a success.

I've

actually just written that down because it's generally just me and the

supervisor and maybe someone- I took

the crew down twice now, and I just felt it was, um, a nice wrap

off just to reward everyone for the project, and we just- Yeah.

I really- … go

have a

lunch after

it … I really like that.

I, I think, um, I, I've, I've written this down because I think

that's something that I'd like to have a chat with my team about.

So, so I'm gonna give one before we wrap this up, because I'm gonna try to keep

these episodes a little bit shorter.

Um, and we'll get to our MEGT mindful moment in a second.

I, I have a client, um, Sarah and Shane, which is our retrofit

Rafa Range Passive House.

And to define how and what I now look for in a client, and this is a level of trust

I want in you, Sarah became my mortgage broker halfway dur- during her build.

I gave her my access to every bank account that I have financially so

she could see how I was sitting, and there was that level of trust that

I knew she would do the right thing.

That is what I want in my client, that every client is now my Shane and

Sarah avatar, and I've got amazing clients elsewhere, but that is what

I look for, and that is the level of trust that I want in someone.

So you've heard it here first.

If you are signing Matt up, he is gonna show

you his bank accounts.

No, I definitely won't, unless you can get me a lot of money to

borrow stuff, and not that I need it anymore because I've built mine.

No, I, yeah, I, I know,

I know Sarah and Shane, uh, and I, and I've obviously interviewed them,

I've, I've talked to them before they talked to you, and they are incredible

human beings, and they, in my mind, are your perfect avatar client.

So,

so this is, and I know I wanna wrap this one up and keep them short,

but interestingly enough is that we probably trade clients more than… My

biggest reference point for a while was

you.

And vice versa.

Yeah, so s- and that's the part of saying no, that like, "Hey, it's in Warrandyte,"

for some odd reason, "Oh, we listened to the podcast, we want you to build a house.

Where is it?

It's in Warrandyte." So go Hamish.

Like, like- S-

sometimes people don't put two and

two- No, I know … two and two together.

Yeah … but like, but like, but for me, it's like I'm not gonna go out there.

That's his-

Yeah

… he's out there.

So I, I think that's the other part.

And what's one thing, if I can't build for you, no matter, if I

don't, even I don't click with you, I will always find you someone.

I will always pass you on to someone.

Yeah.

Budget-

For the, for the most part.

Yeah.

If there's big red flags in there, then if there's big red

herrings running through there-

Handled like,

" Hey, you should contact Hamish" … may- maybe, maybe, maybe we don't.

Yeah.

But, um, yeah, I, uh- 'Cause I actually do remember there was one

project that was kicking around for a while and went through all the

high-performance buildings I know.

And it was just getting handballed- Yeah … from one to the next.

So, um, MEG Mindful Moment, uh, MEG, Australia's largest

apprenticeship experts.

Now, this, this one is

for… I've got one here.

I know we've spoken about this.

You're a, you're a tradie.

You finish your apprenticeship.

You're gonna start doing some cashies or out by yourself.

Do not be afraid to say no.

Do not be afraid to walk away from a project if you think you're

gonna be taken through the ringer.

Now, at some point you will, I promise you.

It's one thing I promise you, is you are going to, um, have a hard conversation,

and you're gonna do something wrong, and you're gonna blame the client,

and most likely it's your problem.

Most likely it was you that was the problem.

All right?

You haven't communicated enough, you haven't been clear enough in your quote.

But what I want you to do is don't be afraid to say no.

If you don't feel like it's for you- You might get excited.

Stop and think, respond, don't react to the project.

Don't sign them up there on the spot.

Have a think and go, "Hey, uh, yeah, I'm gonna get a few hundred bucks,

but is it really worth it?" I think that's a big one for me on that, so.

Yep.

When I'll, can I comment something to that, too?

Go

for it.

' Cause I've, I've just… I, I agree.

Um, walking away and saying no's really important.

If you do, uh, if you do embark on a, a job where, you know, everything's

lining up from a, from a client point of view, from a budget point

of view, trust from both sides is probably the second thing- Yeah

that you really wanna foster.

You need to trust the client, they need to trust you.

Yeah.

Like, how you go and then, you know, foster this environment where

trust is, you know, key, and that includes understanding their budget,

you being honest with the budget- Yeah … you being honest with the

expectations of setting on site.

That's everything that builds trust.

Don't tell them what they wanna hear.

You're the expert here.

Yeah.

Do not just tell a client what they wanna hear- Yeah … 'cause

it will come back and bite you.

I've done it.

I'm sure you've done it.

Um- Well,

I, I'm gonna give one more example before we, uh, before we wrap up.

I went and saw a project the other day.

I said to the client, "How much you wanna spend?" "800." And I said,

"Well, there's no way in hell this is a under a million dollar project."

Yeah.

And I said, "If you don't feel comfortable with that, then there's

no point in me continuing this conversation. I'll leave now."

Yeah.

I

said, "My gut is it's gonna be 1.1 to 1.2."

Yeah.

Set the expectation of, like, straight away of, like, not pandering

to something that's unachievable.

Yeah,

like- Because if you play that out, like, six, seven months down the

track when you finally give them a price, they've still got $800,000 in

their head.

And it goes back to the conversation we had about, um, when they tick that

box, "I haven't built before." They're not meant to know what things cost.

They've heard it off a friend- Exactly,

yeah

… or they've heard it 10 years ago, their friend built for this.

Things have changed.

So you, you, again, you're the expert.

You have to tell them what it's going to cost, and we will get to that in

this series about how to give that information, because that is arguably

the hardest part of our job right now.

But, but yeah, don't be a f- yeah, don't… If you hide something, and

I'm not gonna say you're lying, you're eventually just gonna get called out.

It, it, it, I promise you, you'll get called out and, and- You, you- … then

you've gotta dig yourself out of a hole

You, you're gonna have the conversation around money at some point.

Yeah.

Why not have it really early?

Yeah.

Yeah.

All right.

Done.

Awesome.

Thank you.

Thanks, mate.

Cheers.