Darlene Lancer is an incredibly gifted Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist (LMFT) who specializes in codependency, shame and narcissism. Darlene is a seasoned therapist and prolific author whose book titles include “Codependency for Dummies”, “Conquering Shame and Codependency: 8 Steps to Freeing the True You”, and “Dating, Loving and Leaving a Narcissist”. Darlene’s command of this subject shines through on this episode as she shares a more clinical definition of codependency and adds in real life examples of her own and scenarios that listeners will identify with. Darlene also has a full library of blogs on her website and you will learn so much reading through these as well. Darlene studies dreams and dream interpretation which we delve into as well! Enjoy listening today!

EPISODE TAKEAWAYS (what you’ll learn):

• Darlene’s interest in Freud and Jung as a young girl
• How she tapped into and tested her intuitive gifts early in life
• Darlene’s path from lawyer to psychology
• How studying psychology felt like taking heart vitamins
• How being married to an alcoholic led her to learning how to care for herself
• Shame being the core of codependency
• How to know if you’re a codependent
• Journaling as a path to healing
• Dream interpretation and how it helps us
• Darlene’s tips for writing down your dreams

About the Guest:

Darlene Lancer is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and expert author on relationships, narcissism, and codependency. She’s counseled individuals and couples for over 30 years and coaches internationally. Her 10 books include Dating, Loving, and Leaving a Narcissist, Conquering Shame and Codependency: 8 Steps to Freeing the True You, Codependency for Dummiesand seven ebooks, including 10 Steps to Self-Esteem, How To Speak Your Mind - Become Assertive and Set Limits, Dealing with a Narcissist: 8 Steps to Raise Self-Esteem and Set Boundaries with Difficult People, "I'm Not Perfect - I'm Only Human" - How to Beat Perfectionism, and Freedom from Guilt and Blame - Finding Self-Forgiveness. They’re available on Amazon, other online booksellers. and her website, www.whatiscodependency.com, where you can get a free copy of “14 Tips for Letting Go.” She’s a sought-after speaker in media and at professional conferences. Find her on Soundcloud, Clyp, LinkedIn, Youtube, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook.

Darlene Lancer, JD, LMFT

Author of Dating, Loving, and Leaving a Narcissist, Codependency for Dummies, and Conquering Shame and Codependency

Ebooks:

10 Steps to Self-Esteem and webinar How to Raise Your Self-Esteem

Dealing with a Narcissist: 8 Steps to Raise Self-Esteem and Set Boundaries with Difficult People

How To Speak Your Mind - Become Assertive and Set Limits and webinar How to Be Assertive

Breakup Recovery

"I'm Not Perfect - I'm Only Human" - How to Beat Perfectionism

Spiritual Transformation in the Twelve Steps

Freedom from Guilt and Blame - Finding Self-Forgiveness

Codependency's Recovery Daily Reflections

Self-Love Meditation and Soul Alignment Meditation

Follow me on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram

www.whatiscodependency.com

About the Host:

Maureen Spielman is the Founder of Mystical Sisterhood, a podcast dedicated to bringing more joy, healing and expansion to the world. She is a seasoned life coach who supports individuals through one-on-one coaching, groups and workshops. Connect with Maureen:

Check out her Instagram

Learn more about her work at www.maureenspielman.com

Want to join our Mystical Sisterhood Membership community? Find out more

here: https://www.maureenspielman.com/mysticalsisterhood

Email Maureen at hello@maureenspielman.com to inquire about coaching,

podcasting & speaking engagements

● Want to view Mystical Sisterhood episodes? Visit the Mystical Sisterhood

YouTube Channel here:

Mystical Sisterhood Youtube

Thanks for listening!

Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!

Subscribe to the podcast

If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app.

Leave us an Apple Podcasts review

Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.

Welcome back to mystical sisterhood. This is

Maureen Spielman, your host today I interview Darlene

Lancer. She's a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist

out of Santa Monica, California. Our conversation is riveting. If

you asked me, we talk about codependency and shame and we go

into a bit about dream work as well. Darlene has just a really

long list of blogs. She's published several books, and

she's a seasoned therapist. This episode is full of not only of

her wisdom, from being a psychologist, but also her own

lived experience. So please listen in to the end. And also

if you have interest in joining us on the mystical sisterhood

community platform, we'd love to see you there. We're building a

community of women on a journey of self reclamation, and the

work can be found at www.mystical sisterhood.com To

find out more. Let me know if you have any questions and enjoy

the episode.

Welcome back to mystical sisterhood. This is your host,

Maureen Spielman and today I am with Darlene Lancer. I'm very

excited about this interview. Darlene came into my world

unbeknownst to her, probably in the last one or two months where

I had discovered her work online. Darlene is a licensed

Marriage and Family Therapist, and has a very to me wide body

of work on a number of subjects. She has written a few books,

including codependency for Dummies, and conquering shame

and codependency eight steps to freeing the to you and dating

loving and leaving a narcissist. I was drawn to many of these

subjects when I asked Darlene to come on the podcast. Today, we

are specifically going to be looking at codependency and soul

alignment. So with that, I want to say welcome to you, Darlene.

And thanks for being here.

Thank you so much for inviting me Your show

is really intriguing to me, because I'm very interested in

in the soul. And I think that also relates to recovery. And

it's been a personal journey of mine as well.

I hear you. And I just when we've talked the

other day pre recording the podcast, you know, you kind of

delve into some of your story. But if I just said, Okay,

Darlene, let's begin at the beginning. What comes to you and

where would you like to begin today's interview?

Well, the beginning was my interest in the

psyche when I was a little girl. So I first saw this story. I

think that's the title of this story of Bridey Murphy. And it

was about a woman who went to see a psychiatrist for some

problems, or no, maybe it was just a friend that was

hypnotizing her. And she discovered she had past lives.

And I thought that was really interesting. And then I saw the

three faces of Eve. And that was about someone with a multiple

personality disorder. I was just a little girl at that time,

maybe not even 10 years old. And then I read my brother's medical

book because he was in medical school by Sigmund Freud, Freud's

interpretation of dreams, which is a huge volume. And I was

reading it with a flashlight in a bed at night. And I was like

so absorbed in it. And I used to really be fascinated by my

dreams. And they were like, fairy tales to me. And I would

plan them and like revel in them. So I was very interested

in them. Then as I got older, I read Carl Jung in high school

and college and my whole world expanded and I decided I wanted

to be a psychologist, way back then. And I got sidetracked and

became a lawyer. Quite the opposite. And then part of my

recovery was journeying back to what I originally wanted to do,

which was be a writer and be a therapist. And so that's what

eventually I did.

It's beautiful. Yeah, when you talk

about those early years of your life, first of all, it's so

striking that the memories of all the curiosity I feel like

there was curiosity and creativity in there with

curiosity and your waking hours to explore and discover and then

that creativity that sort of came out in your dreams, it

feels like

yeah, I also was introduced to the work of JB

Rhine when I was about nine years old. Because my brother

had a book on it and told me about it. And he was doing

research at York University. This is decades ago, it was very

early in the field. And I guess I read the book, and I started

testing my paranormal ability bilities. And I think like, my

siblings, were kind of playing with me. And I would like try to

guess, you know, what card that they were picking out of a pile

or what number they were thinking of? Maybe they were

playing along. Oh, I know, intuited what they were thinking

or finding. So I was very interested in then. I was having

psychic dreams when I was a teenager. Were kind of blew my

mind. Yeah, I was always interested in spirit and, and,

you know, other worldly things.

And, and it feels like a lot of self

discovery alongside that. And when you are talking about your

younger years, I heard you say a couple times, just in the

introduction here, that you changed careers. I think you

said it after recovery. Do you want to go into that a little

bit?

Okay, well, I was a lawyer for many years

entertainment lawyer, and I wasn't happy on it, although I

was successful. And I was more interested in reading about

spirituality and psychology and things like that, rather than

the latest, you know, things happening in my field or those

cases. And that was kind of boring to me. And I have a

friend said to me, you know, why don't I? Psychology is one of

the options or a few others that I was exploring. And she said,

Why don't I volunteer at this local clinic? That allowed pure

cons counselors to do counseling? And I did, and I was

like, Oh, my God, I feel like I've come home. Wow. And I

decided to return to graduate school and get another degree.

And I told the dean there when I was being interviewed, it was

like, taking heart vitamins. was very different from practicing

law. Yes. And then I actually, after I made the decision, I

remembered, I forgotten, that's what I wanted to do. So I

actually remembered that that was when I wanted to do as a

kid, and I think I decided not to because back then, psychology

didn't have such a good reputation was a little bit out,

considered kind of flaky. So I thought I'd want to be a

psychiatrists. But it's sort of eight years of, you know,

graduate work. Oh, I could never stick to it. So I'll become a

lawyer. Right. So a few years.

It makes me laugh. Darlene because I had

gone into nursing, my first two years in college. And it was a

time when I had a couple aunts who were nurses. And they said,

Oh, Maureen, it's not a great profession right now. Because it

was the landscape was really shifting. And so I said, okay,

and I just switched to of all things, political science. So it

took me years to say like, wait a minute, that's not for me, it

sort of reminds me of your diversion into a

political science was my undergraduate

isn't really Yeah. And I wanted to be a diplomat. And then

during the Vietnam War, I got so turned off to the State

Department, and the war effort and all of that, that I thought,

oh, no, I couldn't, couldn't do that.

Yeah, I can see that. Right. I'm not

surprised to hear you say that. So when you started going into

the field of psychology and in therapy, did you specialize

early? Or did you sort of feel your way out? Yeah.

As I've written, I was married to an alcoholic

and I had been an Al Anon. And so I had begun my recovery

sometime much earlier. And actually that at led to my My

career change started to uncover who I really was. And my divorce

all of that came out of my work and trusted programs working on

myself. And I was becoming more of who I was meant to be. Which

I've written about is like Soul alignment, in my opinion. Yes.

Getting back to your topic. And so I started doing therapy with

clients. And I was writing blogs. And then John Wiley and

Sons approached me. They read my blog on our YouTube codependence

and asked me to write a book. Well, first, I had to compete

with some other psychologists and authors. And they asked me,

it was about writing a book on codependency for dummies. And I

had to do an outline of it. And after I was, given this

opportunity, I thought, oh my god, this is like, everything

I'm doing with clients. It's my own story. It's like I know it

inside out, but I never named it. It wasn't the name I had

written, read about codependency but it wasn't as popularized and

interest at meetings. In the Al Anon meeting I was in, they

didn't talk about psychological terms. That was kind of frowned

upon way back then. Fortunately, it's much more widespread, known

to people talk about PTSD and trauma, and intimacy issues and

mental illness. All of that is much more out in the open. But

back in those days, it wasn't, and I think, coder meetings

codependency anonymous. They were just getting off the

ground. It was a very new program. So I wasn't labeling

what I was doing or my journey. But once I was given the

opportunity to write the book, I thought, yes. And I wrote such a

comprehensive outline, and, you know, first chapter that they

immediately gave me then they gave me the position. And then I

wrote that book. And I was asked to write about 300 pages 280 or

something. And I didn't know how I could write that much. And I

ended up writing like, 325 or something like way over? Yeah.

They thought it's so good. They wanted they expanded the book.

Right? And I didn't second edition a few years later, and

Hazleton asked me to write a book on shame and codependency.

Because they Brene Brown was one of their authors, and her book

on shame was successful. And they read my blog on shame as

the core of codependency. And, actually, the blog was shame as

the core of addiction. I think it underlies codependency and

addiction, and you can consider codependency, a form of

addiction to Yeah, and so they hired me to write that book. So

those were, so my career as an author was really launched. And

then I was writing my own books, self publishing my own books,

and recently wrote one on narcissism. And I find it

interesting because my background and codependency and

shame comes together. It just folds together when you talk

about narcissism, because shame underlines narcissism, it

underlies codependency and it brings it all together because

in my perspective, narcissists are codependent too, which is

kind of a minority view, but there is some research on that.

Yeah, if you were to say, I know I was

reading one of your blog posts and it you had said that there

are many different definitions of codependency and I was

wondering, what is your definition?

Okay, well, it's someone who's thinking and

behavior revolve around something external. A process

which would be like gambling, sex addiction shopping,

substance like food or Alcohol, drugs or another person, which

includes codependency. And as someone who doesn't, they do

that because they can't access their innate self. Okay? So

recovery is about recovering your relationship with yourself.

And due to dysfunctional parenting or early trauma, that

connection gets interrupted. It's like the hardware is there,

but the software isn't. So we have all the wiring, we just

have to start to turn our focus back to ourselves and learn to

access and identify our feelings or needs, get our voice back

because a lot of it is learning and learning new skills, you

know, it's damaged self esteem due to shaming and we can raise

our self esteem is dysfunctional communication, we can learn to

be assertive. Okay,

yeah, I like listening to your description,

and even how you started with the terms of shame codependency,

narcissism, but with the one term that I've heard more

recently, I feel like codependent is a term that I've

heard over the years. And then it reminds me of that term and

mash men also have when you're just so deeply enmeshed with

something on the outside, how does one know that either maybe

their parents, would they have something codependent, I guess,

with another person in their life? How would you kind of know

that about yourself? Is it just that through such a loss of

sense of self?

Well, I'll give you an example. When I was, I

was very independent. As a teenager, I traveled through

Europe by myself, I would go to plays and opera by myself. When

I was just like, 1617, then I got married. And it was very

odd, I noticed that. And my husband was not in a home

drinking or watching TV or whatever he was doing. I wanted

to take our child to the park. And I did that with our my first

child. And then by the time my second child was born, if my

husband wouldn't go with me, I didn't go. If I wanted to watch

a TV show, and he said, No, I'm going to bed, I would just go to

bed, I wouldn't stay up and watch it. So I just noticed,

observe this in myself, this is just very strange. I didn't know

why or what it was, or how that happened. But I was gradually

losing my autonomy, and my voice. And that's one example.

And others just low self esteem. You might not know you have low

self esteem, a lot of people think they have good self

esteem, when they really don't. And most people are not too

conscious of their inner talk. So I tell people, you know how

you talk, talk and think about yourself reflects your self

esteem. Whether you trust yourself, whether you can make

decisions, or you're very confused or ask other people

can't make decisions. Those are signs of lack of self trust. So

pay attention to your inner talk. If you put yourself down

is I shouldn't have done that. I should do that. Be very

indecisive and fearful to take positions. Are you easily

persuaded by someone else is the opinion. Yeah, are afraid to

speak out. On unsure of how you what you think about things that

shows a weak sense of self.

It feels like

shaming yourself. Do you tell when you

listen to yourself? Talk? Do you put yourself down? Yeah, feel

inferior in most codependents if they're really honest with

themselves, then maybe hard to admit that the they're afraid

people don't like okay, yeah. Well, those

are really good examples. And it becomes

more clear to me I feel like probably a codependent would

have poor boundaries.

Yeah, so the other signs are you focus on

someone else. And you're always thinking like, I was always

wondering, what is my husband? You know, what's he going to do

next? Or, you know, how can I not upset him? Yeah, so if

you're it was an abusive relationship. So it really comes

out in you know, check the color when you're with The abuser

because you don't feel safe. And you probably it was this way

with appearance where you didn't want to get in trouble. So you

become hyper vigilant. So it starts with trying to please or

stay safe with a parent, or get their attention if they're

unavailable. And so you're looking outwards. So I have a

blog and my website is like Paradise Lost, you know what,

what happened to my true self. Because a baby that has an

attentive, nurturing, caretaker, supposedly, the mother, usually,

you know, it can just feel in bliss. And know when it's

hungry, it'll be fed, when, when it'll be changed. And it's not

alone too long, it'll be held. But if the mother is not there,

or she comes, and she's tense, or rough with the baby, or

preoccupied or whatever, you know, that baby's gonna be

wondering, what is Mother's mood? And then you'd have to

know, you know, can Is it okay to cry? Or is it not? Or what

does she think and they start a tuning to the mother. And then

that gets worst, you know, when you you're a year old or

something, and you're your parent is on the phone or on the

cell phone all the time, rest, mores was fighting, or you know,

there's not enough food or money in stressed. So those are some

signs if you're trying to control it, not just watch your

partner, but to kind of control them and tell them what to do

and change them. So you're more focused on changing your

partner, then yourself, which I was when I was told that I had a

problem and she could step meetings, I was insulted. I

don't have a problem. That's my husband. And you mentioned in

measurement, and boundaries. So the sign of a measurement is

like when you're overreacting. You take in whatever someone

says you think it's true. The The other was when you don't

have clear ideas. Another one that's is very can be very

subtle is your React. So if your partner is angry, you think Oh,

I'm in trouble. I did something wrong. Yeah. If your partner's

sad, you think, what did I do to upset them? Or they say they're

sad. And then you think, Oh, I guess I'm not doing a good

spouse or

something. Yeah. And

angry. You think what? Yeah, so you're

overreacting to everything. You can't let the other person have

their own feelings. Yeah. And you don't have your own

feelings. It's all mixed up. You get confused. What do I feel

good feeling? Or am I? Yeah, it's all mishmash. Yeah,

codependents can have rigid boundaries, or a parent that's

unavailable. Instead of investment, they're neglected.

So it could be the opposite. Or you don't let anybody in you

don't get close to people. Yeah, it's self protected. Hmm,

yeah. I can see. Shades of my former self

and a lot of this. Darlene and I think that you're right, when

it's really, we're not brought up with the emotional language.

And so sometimes, even when something you said about self

esteem earlier, I thought was very interesting how we can have

a perception of ourselves that our self esteem or I think the

other word that sometimes kind of hard to grasp or to

understand is around our worthiness. And you can have

these behaviors that someone may be a therapist might say, Well,

do you feel worthy? And you Oh, yeah, I feel completely worthy.

But it's such a, the worthiness I feel like it's such a core

piece of part of us, that you're saying kind of gets lost, not

kind of it does get lost along the way through our experiences.

And that's no matter how it shows up for us. That's, I feel

like that's pretty much for everybody in some way. We've

given away parts of ourselves. So, but great examples that

you're providing about how it shows up. And it seems like we

could also fall somewhere on a continuum. Oh, I have to say

that any of these terms.

And it's hard to know also because denial is a

symptom. So people say how can I help my partner is so

codependent Well, if your code is your partner's codependent,

chances are you are too. So I had an argument with my editor,

but I wrote the conquering shame because they were Very linear

Anna no rigid in their thinking and they thought because as I

told you my definition includes addicts they said I added can't

be codependent because they're in a relationship with a

codependent so how can an addict be codependent? Well, if you

talk to addicts who are in recovery, they will admit

they're codependent. Maybe first it's with a drug or something.

Alcohol and then underneath that in a when they're getting into a

relationship. They have intimacy problems, they have all the same

issues. Yeah. And I explained that in my book other signs are

irrational guilt. Did you feel guilty all the time,

perfectionism. Those come from those are defenses to shame. And

of course dependency insight. My example about not going to the

park you become dependent on summer. Yes, Your worth is in

taking care of so maybe codependence think it comes from

the shame to they think if someone loves me, then I'm

lovable. Well, that's a false beliefs. Are I have to be

perfect to be loved. Yeah, I have to be flawless to be loved.

You're lovable for who you are. Not sure what you do. Or not

just because someone else loves you. But is there a lot of

people that won't like you're in love you that doesn't make you

unwell. Right? Yes. And it is the the

reclamation of our worth. So when you begin to work with

people or even for our listeners today, and if they see shades of

themselves in what you're saying or in their life somewhere?

What's the beginning steps to kind of begin to reclaim

yourself?

Yeah, well, codependency for Dummies is laid

out like a treatment plan.

Is that okay? So,

but one of the first things I tell people's

start journaling, you know, read all you can about him, go to

Codependents Anonymous meetings, if there's an addict in your

life go to or appearance, even if they're dead now, but if

you're a child of addict, or alcohol addict includes any kind

of addiction, go to Al Anon meetings to and learn all you

can and start paying attention to yourself talk, as I said,

Okay, identifying that, and there's so many blogs at my

website to start identifying your beliefs. Learn how to name

your feelings, I wasn't able to identify my feelings as a

beginner. So if your parents is one of their jobs is to help you

identify feelings and mirror you.

Yes, yes. It reminds me something you're

saying of how people and and you know, some of the people that

you're referring to are people like us who have had experiences

is that idea that, you know, you are traumatized to some degree,

and then your your fight or flight is activated. But that

idea of you're kind of it feels like codependence are sometimes

scanning their environment, just to you may have mentioned that

just to see the reaction of, they're just not on high alert,

and highly alert to others reactions and dictating their

then responsive behavior.

Right, you know, you point out something

interesting. And now there's all this new research on trauma,

PTSD, and the nervous system wasn't around like 30 years ago.

Or it wasn't popular say that. But it wasn't until I was in a

really safe relationship, where I realized that I never felt

safe. Yeah. And that is a problem for codependence because

they don't feel safe. In there, they might say, Oh, I I felt

loved but that doesn't mean that you felt safe. Yeah. Or that you

actually got the love kind of love you need it because a

parent has to go into this in conquering shame and

codependency. A parent has to want a relationship with your

True Self with who you really are. Yeah. And it's not enough

to say I love you, or buy you whatever you want or need. They

will have to want to spend time with you and listen to you and

support you as an individual, not the idea of what they want

you to be not because you get good grades or or an athlete or

any of that. SO and SO. We often are Trying striving to become

that ideal that our parent wanted. And we lose our true

self. And anyway, so you may not have felt safe to be yourself,

or to speak your mind or whatever it was as a as a child,

and then you get into relationships that are similar.

And then a lot of and this also applies to abusive narcissistic

relationships, especially. So you date someone. And of course,

you don't know that they're an abuser, a narcissist in the

beginning. They're very romantic and charming. So what happens is

that many people confuse excitement and insecurity. So

they don't realize that they don't feel safe. Yes. And

there's some apprehension there. And it's not that the person is

going to hit you. It's that you can't say, No, I don't feel like

doing that, or don't touch me. Hmm, saying no. You know, right.

You want to get along go, you know, Kota ones want to go along

to get along.

Yeah. And it's, it's kind of, you're not

then going to give yourself the permission to do any of those

things. And when you talk about the safety, I know, in my

coaching classes with my teacher, Susie, Lulu, we talk a

lot about that idea of safety within your own consciousness.

And it reminds me of what you're saying about negative self talk.

And that, that, that can create a really just negative self self

loop that we're on, and that we're being called to create a

new relationship with ourselves and make it safe for ourselves

to land. So not like you're saying, like not shaming

ourselves, not guilting ourselves, not making ourselves

bad or wrong.

Right, you got to change that negative feedback

loop. I have examples of that my books, the positive feedback.

And just like you, you know, you can get into I call it a like,

the Wella shame, you fall into a well, and you can barely get

yourself out, you could hang out there for days, months, years or

your lifetime. Or you can create a positive, turn it around,

you're just reverse just reverse engineering. Right? Give

yourself positive self talk, because your unconscious,

believes what you say is very concrete and literal, as much as

if someone else's. But you have to say things that you believe

are true. Right? So yeah, that's the able to say, I love myself,

but you might be able to say, I'm, I want to love myself, I'm

working towards loving myself. There are things and there are

things that I like about myself. So it has to be you have to be

honest with yourself when you're saying make it positive.

And that seems to me to you just begin to let

the light in, if you were will allow yourself to just begin to

say those statements, you just said that. It's just just slowly

allowing a new experience. I had a question too. I'm thinking

that, of course, the coaches that I've trained with are

largely women, Darlene. And so what about men and this work? I

think that's a question I have, are they, as apt has women to

come to the work? I know it's as worthy. But any thoughts on

that?

Well, women tend to go into therapy more than

men. They tend to ruminate more and more towards depression.

Women, okay. And they

have been socialized to be is less less

today than in years past and in some many cultures and

religions, to be more subservient to romance and also

to be caretakers. Yeah, so there's more of a programming

towards codependence. Parents will encourage the independence

and autonomy of boys before girls. They're more fearful of

their daughters being hurt her getting pregnant and they'll

encourage their sons to take more risks. Okay, usually and

actually in the research, there's some blogs on my

website. on self esteem, they go into this girls are independent

and mature faster than boys when they're very young. But then by

the time they get into their late teens, the boys go ahead.

So now girls are thinking about, you know, being a partner. And

sometimes that's a priority, getting married, rather than

having a career or something.

Right, right. Yeah. And I see my daughter is

19. Now. And although things are changing, and we know that this

information is becoming more and more accessible, I think it's

just going to take decades to really make it a just a bigger

wave of change coming through, but we've got to start

somewhere. And you've been doing the work for quite some time. So

I love our this conversation today. Because it is so

educational. And I think when people listen to it, that they

just say like, oh, that's, I relate to that. And it can just

lead to the awakening, which is eventually the soul alignment I

wanted to also touch upon because when we met the other

day, I think we, I told you, oh, yeah, when you mentioned the

dreams, that I know, it's a little bit of a side path, but

how you've been so guided by dreams in your life. And I just

wanted you to share some of that with the audience. Because I

think it's a way we receive information or can that probably

has to do with our soul alignment. So I just thought it

was fascinating. You're living your life by your dreams.

Oh, thank you. Yeah, well, in anticipation of

our conversation I just posted on social media today. A blog

about dreams and as the doorway to the soul, soul. And Carl Jung

thought that it was like a hidden door to the deep

unconscious. And Freud said it's the royal road to the

unconscious. So you know, you can get guidance from your

dreams about relationships that you're in projects you're

undertaking warnings, they will lift you up when you're to down

and point out your when you're inflated. When you get to your

ego gets too big. And they will bring up things that need to be

healed. So I've done a lot of dream interpretation with

people. And I remember one woman, she was very happily

married and things were, you know, really on track in her

life. And she started having these strange dreams was I don't

remember the dream. But the interpretation was, it had to do

with abuse in her childhood that she never dealt with. But it

didn't come up until she finally felt safe. Wow. She had a loving

partner and everything was going great in life. And now it was

like now she felt safe enough to to have these dreams. And I

remember when I left my husband, who was also physically abusive.

I was about two weeks later and was in a safe place. And I had a

dream. I woke up in the middle of the night with a dream of I

don't remember if it was him or just somebody strangling me. And

I was like trying to scream. So I didn't have that one. I was

married. Yes. But once I was out of the house, it was like the

PTSD. You know, the dreams were like haunting me. And I had

dreams over the years of him. And they went from abuse to

fighting, standing up and fighting back. And then

eventually, like he was waiting on me and bringing our hours.

And I would say you know, he'd want a relationship with me, I'd

say no, thank you. Yeah. They Oh, there was a whole

metamorphosis as I was like healing inside and I had a

dream. Maybe I mentioned to you in the 90s that I would go into

the forest and like journal and reclaim title to myself. And

then I would write about it and share with others. So that was

like was my that was around 95 to 15 years before I got my book

contract. He did. Yeah, he doesn't.

Those are fascinating. You did. You did

mention the one too. You didn't tell me about the forest one,

but the one when you I think it was something around waking up

next to shame.

Oh, yeah. So I was teaching about self esteem

when I was a new therapist. And I didn't realize that I had

worked my own work to do. And I thought my self esteem was

pretty good. And then I put this in my book on shame. I had a

dream that I was sleeping next to a woman. Her name was shame.

And I wanted to kick her out of the bed. I didn't want to know

her. Right. So most people are not aware that they have shame.

It is not talked about much in Western cultures compared to

Asia, Latin America. I didn't know that. But it's definitely

is there just as much. We talk more about guilt, though, and

there's a big difference. I go into my book.

Yes. Okay. The dreams are fascinating. Do you

have practices to? Sounds like they come quite naturally to you

now. But when you talk to people about dreams, are there

practices that we can almost encourage dreams more within

ourselves? Oh, absolutely. Okay. Well,

so that's been? Well, if you're in therapy,

started talking about your dreams, and you'll start

dreaming more. Okay. But the main thing is like, before you

go to sleep, you know, ask virgin? No, I've asked for

guidance. And I had a lot of I've had a lot of pre cognitive

dreams that something was going to happen. And that didn't

happen. Yes. And guidance of how to handle things. Wow. Preparing

me so ask for a dream. And then this is very important. Before

when you start to wake up, train yourself to the first thought

is, what am I dreaming, don't Okay, your eyes, don't move,

don't turn over. Certainly don't get out of bed. And, and stay in

and try to recall your dream. Okay, that pencil and paper or

recording machine by you or your phone so you can record it

because you'll forget, if you get into your day too quickly.

You forget, if you have a habit of meditating, you might

remember, you wake up because you're closer to your

unconscious. Also, sometimes, I remember dreams in the shower.

And it was explained to me that the repetitive tapping the

water, choose your unconscious. So if you shower first thing,

you know, just don't think about your day ahead, just kind of

relax and close your eyes and see if you can recall what

you're dreaming of in the shower. I think that

that's always fascinating. When you have been

awake for a little bit. You, you have that realization of like,

oh my god, that was my dream, but all really good takeaways

for our dream world. And yeah, I do use my notes app. And my

daughter just bought me a dream journal for the holidays. But I

like writing them down. And I'll go back and look at them. And

I'll just have no recollection. Unless it was something that was

so standout ish. And yeah, I feel like I had one just last

night that was probably based on fear, a fear of mine. So I love

that. Darlene, we

want to say one other thing. Yes. If you're

starting to write down dreams, I highly recommend you to write it

down by hand. Okay, I highly recommend that you if you're

really interested in your dream, like to transfer it to a digital

copy a Word document or something because and I regret

that I haven't done this because you may want to search for

keywords as you might dream about, let's say a brother, or a

certain place or event. And, and then you go on to look you know,

I have like dozens of journals. Yes. And you know, I can't like

find where that dream wasn't. Sometimes I have dreams like a

sequel series. So if you have it digitally, you can always search

for a certain word. And that would be great.

Oh my gosh, that's fascinating. I love it. I

thank you so much for sharing such a I don't know just today

was great. You touched on so many things. I know I could talk

to you forever. you've named your blogs, but when the

listeners go to find you, where should they find you? Where can

they find you?

Well, they you just put my name and Google,

you'll find that I'm on all social media. I'm not on Tik

Tok, but I'm on Instagram and Facebook and LinkedIn and

Pinterest, and you have a YouTube channel. Okay. And most

of my podcasts are on the media page on my website. But it's

codependency.com. Or you can get there from Darlene lancer.com.

And there's more on like, Soul alignment. Okay, let's say,

Yes. I love it. Yeah, everything that you're

talking about today is noticing the patterns. How? How were we

nurtured or not nurtured as kids what, you know, as a result, how

did we kind of show up as adults and what kind of relationships

we came into being whether it's another person, a person or a

substance, but that eventually, the call will be to come back to

ourselves and that soul alignment that you're talking

about. And I just want to just thank you, again, for being here

and for also creating so many rich resources for people to

access because I was on what is codependency.com? And you've

just provided, I mean, there are just 10s upon 10s, if not

hundreds of blog posts where people can just go learn and

they're, and they're not exactly bite sized. They're a little bit

longer, but they allow you to learn more about yourself.

Thank you. Yes, I have over 200 blogs. I also

blog on medium. Okay, people there are so yes. Okay, yeah, I

like to educate, and I try to keep my prices low. So more

people can access my materials and all my books, all my books

and work. Ebooks are workbooks. So there's exercises there where

you can do you know, self help and people right, reduce telling

you that doing so really has changed their lives. So yeah,

well, and it surprises me.

I think even for all the coaches out there

listening today that there are great resources and therapists

for the your prep your practices to go deeper and learn more,

because a lot of therapists are using my books. I

find it

Yeah, beautiful. Okay, Darlene, thank

you so much. And I will include all your resources in the show

notes of the episode. And to the listeners. Thank you for being

here. And we'll see you next time.

We're gonna thank you, marine. You're

terrific host it's been real fun.

Ah, thank you. Bye.

Thanks for listening to this episode of mystical sisterhood.

If you love what you heard, please visit Apple podcasts, and

subscribe and leave a review and share with a friend if you're

called to do so. To learn more about my one on one coaching

programs, or join the mystical sisterhood membership, visit

Maureenspielman.com or mysticalsisterhood.com Thanks so

much. I'll see you in the next episode.