Travel journalist Richard Collett joins Daniel Edward to explore Devon and Cornwall through coast, food, tourism, regional identity and Britain’s internal borders.

https://www.destinationunlocked.com

Devon and Cornwall share England’s far south-west, but cross the River Tamar and the differences quickly become more than a line on the map.

Travel journalist Richard Collett joins Daniel Edward to explore two counties connected by coast, food and family holidays, yet separated by distinct histories and identities. Richard lives in Exmouth and opens his new book, Along the Borders: In Search of What Divides and Unites Us, in Cornwall.

Together, Daniel and Richard follow the South West Coast Path, compare Cornwall’s powerful international identity with Devon’s quieter character, and ask how visitors can enjoy the region without simply joining the summer crush in its best-known hotspots.

There is also a proper hearing for cream first versus jam first, alongside pasties, harbour seafood, St Ives, Dartmoor and the question at the heart of Richard’s book: why do identities often become strongest at the edges?

This is destination unlocked with me, Daniel Edward.

2

Hello, welcome back to

Destination Unlocked.

3

Thank you for joining us today for

this conversation about Devon and

4

Cornwall in the south of the uk.

5

Destination Unlocked is the Conversational

Travel Podcast where each week I'm

6

joined by a local or an authentic

travel expert who unlocks a part of

7

the world that they know inside out.

8

today, we're joined by both a local and

an authentic expert Richard Collett is

9

a travel journalist and the author of the

new book Along the Borders in Search of

10

what divides and unites the British Isles.

11

And he currently lives in Xmu, which

is along the South Coast in Devon.

12

He opens his book, which was released

13

on Cornwall and that border, which

is one of the more famous internal

14

borders within the uk, and the book

goes all around the country exploring

15

those internal divisions and identities

that pop up around the borders.

16

It's a really good book if you're

looking for something to read that

17

takes you around the British Isles.

18

And for now, we're getting

into Devon and Cornwall.

19

Enjoy the conversation.

20

So Richard, what are you

unlocking for us today?

21

Richard Collett: today I'll be

unlocking Devon and Cornwall.

22

Daniel Edward: these are two

stunning parts of the uk.

23

I think they get a relatively large

amount of domestic interest, but do

24

they get international tourists as well?

25

Richard Collett: Interestingly,

yes, I would say Cornwall gets more

26

international tourism than Devon.

27

This is from my experience, I live

in Devon, and I don't see too many,

28

outsiders apart from British tourists.

29

in the place where I live, which

is a place called Exif, which is

30

right on the beach and has all of

the trappings of, a tourist town

31

that you would have in, Cornwall.

32

but we don't seem to have the sort of

level of international tourism that

33

you would see in, somewhere like St.

34

Ives for example, in the

far west of Cornwall.

35

I think that's because Cornwall

has this kind of more of an

36

international allure perhaps.

37

Like people seem to know more

about the southwest coast path.

38

For example, when I was walking

sections of that a few years ago, I

39

met a lot of German hikers actually.

40

I know Germans love to hike and

for whatever reason, I'm not sure

41

if there's a promotion of Cornwall

in, Germany or they'd read the salt

42

path at the time, perhaps, although

we're not allowed to read that

43

anymore after the, the scandal are we.

44

Um, for whatever reason it seems that

a lot of, uh, Europeans anyway, and I

45

think a lot of Americans who are drawn by

their ancestry as well to Cornwall, cause

46

Cornwall had this great diaspora in the

sort of Victorian British empire times.

47

So there's a lot of towns in the US for

example, Canada, South Africa, Australia

48

as well, where Cornish people went to live

and work and ended up settling overseas.

49

so there's a huge interest in Cornwall

as a destination, for these people

50

who've sort of, you know, have links

to, Cornwall through their family and

51

stuff who wanna come back and sort

of see, where their ancestors lived.

52

maybe not how they lived,

'cause things have changed.

53

but you know, what the culture's

like the history in general.

54

whereas Devon doesn't seem to necessarily,

at least the part of Devon that I live

55

in, doesn't seem to necessarily, have

that huge diaspora, and that connection to

56

say America or the US Canada, et cetera.

57

so yeah, there's a lot more

international tourism, Cornwall, and

58

a lot of domestic tourism as well.

59

but then Devon is sort of, I

would say anyway, is is more

60

focused on local domestic tourism.

61

Daniel Edward: I feel like Devon

has bit of a, quieter profile.

62

There's something different

about them, but they're so close.

63

Richard Collett: I know what you mean.

64

I'd quite like to keep it that way.

65

It does feel a lot more low key in

Devon, especially in terms of tourism.

66

there are certain hotspots in Devon,

like Alcom for example, where, there is a

67

lot of mass tourism, a lot of, you know,

small fishing villages which are overrun.

68

but I think Devon's, feels bigger

'cause Cornwall is this peninsula that

69

kind of narrows towards land's end.

70

obviously stunning coastline in both

places, but Devin, you've got much more

71

opportunity to get away from the coast,

and to, see places like Dartmore . You

72

don't feel like you are, overrun

by, too many other holiday makers.

73

there's more stretches of beach that are

lesser known, I suppose, but equally have

74

all the same trappings that Cornwall has.

75

Daniel Edward: I remember when

we were growing up, year we

76

would go somewhere in Devon.

77

The next year we would

go somewhere in Cornwall.

78

The next year we'd go back to

somewhere in Devon, but you didn't

79

have to go to the same places.

80

there's so many different options.

81

Richard Collett: Yeah, certainly.

82

And just to ask you a question,

how did they differ for you?

83

Were they noticeably different

when you were in Cornwall or

84

did you find them very similar

85

Daniel Edward: What we did

was different for sure.

86

I remember in Cornwall we used to

go cycling at Padstow and then, I

87

remember in Devon we went to a castle,

can't remember the name of the castle.

88

And then what I do remember very

proud of this, even though I was

89

probably about eight, I won a sand

castle making competition in Devon.

90

Richard Collett: Brilliant.

91

Daniel Edward: Yeah, that

was quite impressive.

92

the beaches are obviously

a, big part of it.

93

even though it is still the UK and it

is still cold, whatever people tell

94

you is gonna be warmer in Cornwall.

95

It's still cold.

96

the other thing that I really, feel

in Cornwall, which I, I haven't

97

felt so much in Devon, not to say

it's not there, but I've just not

98

come across it, is the art scene.

99

St.

100

Ives is probably the best pick for that,

but it feels like an artist's colon.

101

Richard Collett: it was

for a very long time.

102

in St.

103

Ives you have Barbara Hepworth?

104

she sort of led this, movement in St.

105

Ives that inspired a generation of

sort of romantic painters to head down

106

to the far end of Cornwall, set up,

in these little fishing cottages that

107

had been rented out by the fishermen

themselves and to start this community of

108

artists that is really reflected in St.

109

Ives.

110

You've got a branch of the Tate.

111

I remember Barbara Hepworth called

it a pagan landscape that was

112

sort of filled with mythology.

113

Not to call, call more pagan

land, of course is probably

114

the wrong way to describe it.

115

But you kind of get the sentiment that,

you know, this is an ancient landscape.

116

If you head down to the west of

Cornwall, you've got all these sort

117

of ancient stone circles and all this

Celtic mythology, which surrounds it.

118

I think they were sort of really

tapping into that side of Cornwall,

119

when they had this artistic

movement that was inspired by this.

120

Daniel Edward: It is an

inspirational landscape, and it's

121

funny because it's inspired people

with very different backgrounds.

122

It's inspired busy city slickers

from London who want to get away from

123

it all to take a second home there.

124

It's inspired really, strong, gritty

fishermen to survive against the elements.

125

It's also inspired conservationism

in the Eden Project, for example.

126

Richard Collett: Yeah, certainly.

127

I think Cornwall is a lot of things

to a lot of different people.

128

it's good in a way, but it can

also collide in not so good

129

ways, um, to put it lightly.

130

so ST i's for example, is, one of the most

interesting places to visit in Cornwall.

131

but in the peak of summer, it can

also be one of the most uninspiring,

132

unfortunately, just because there's

so many tourists there, seeking

133

this sort of Cornish lifestyle

that was perhaps inspired by people

134

like Barbara Hepworth, that doesn't

actually exist on a local level.

135

'cause you mentioned a lot of,

Londoners go down there and

136

buy second homes, for example.

137

And that actually causes, knock on

effects in the local communities.

138

Local Cornish people can't actually

afford to live in places like St.

139

Ives anymore,

140

It's nice for you when you're

there on a hot summers day.

141

But these aren't just playgrounds

for the rest of the country

142

there are living in and working

communities that are there as well.

143

Daniel Edward: Tourism has part saved

the Cornish economy, but in part it

144

has really trampled on life there.

145

Cornwall, and this is something

which I think a lot of people don't

146

realise, is one of the parts of the

UK with the highest poverty levels.

147

Richard Collett: Yes,

it's astounding, really.

148

I looked up some stats and what really

surprised me is it wasn't just one

149

of the poorest regions in the uk.

150

It was one of the poorest

regions in all of Western Europe.

151

Not coastal towns, but sort of

in the middle of Cornwall, have

152

some of the highest usages of,

food banks in the country as well.

153

so yeah, tourism has become sort of

this, this double-edged sword, I suppose

154

a lot of businesses of course rely on

tourism, but at the same time it's also

155

causing troubles in the housing sector.

156

a lot of the jobs that are

created are sort of only seasonal

157

work in the summer bumps.

158

The problem isn't

necessarily tourism as such.

159

I think Cornwall needs to sell itself

more as a, as a year round destination.

160

'cause I personally think the

best times to visit Cornwall are

161

outside of the summer seasons,

outside of the peak seasons.

162

and instead of just going

to these hotspot like St.

163

Ives, Cornwall's a big place.

164

There's probably about 300 odd

miles of coastline in Cornwall.

165

everybody doesn't need to go

to the same cove or beach that

166

you saw on TikTok or Instagram.

167

and indeed you can go and land as well.

168

You can go and see the malls.

169

you can visit places like, Truo, the

capital, if you can call it that of

170

Cornwall or the, the only city anyway.

171

People just need to broaden their

horizons, so to speak, when it

172

comes to visiting Cornwall, because

tourism has the potential to have a

173

much more positive effect, I think,

than we have seen in Cornwall.

174

And because so many people are reliant

on it , for jobs and, for the, well

175

for the Cornish economy, it needs to be

approached in a more sustainable manner.

176

Daniel Edward: So if you're visiting

outside of summer, the weather's

177

going to be slightly more dramatic.

178

gonna get the most amazing storm photos

if you are into that sort of thing.

179

but what is there to do inside that's

going to make that still a great holiday?

180

Richard Collett: Cornwall has this

almost subtropical climate, at least

181

compared to the rest of the uk.

182

it's one of the rainiest places in

the winter months, probably in Europe.

183

'cause you get all these Atlantic

storms sort of sweeping in

184

and, and hitting the coastline.

185

You mentioned the, Eden project earlier.

186

that's sort of one of the

great indoor, activities to do.

187

A lot of the coastal towns all

have boutique little art galleries

188

and shops you can pop into.

189

And to, to be quite honest with you,

one of my favourite things to do when

190

it rains is just to go into a nice

Cornish pub, enjoy, a nice pint of

191

Cornish ale and have some, seafood

broth or something warming like that.

192

Daniel Edward: Yeah, slow down.

193

Richard Collett: Yeah,

just, just slow down.

194

Daniel Edward: I think Cornwall does

that very well coming from London.

195

when you get there, you

learn to embrace that.

196

Richard Collett: hope so as well.

197

Because that is one of the great

appeals of, visiting Cornwall is

198

having this more, relaxed pace of life.

199

It's slowing down and if you're

there in winter, just, you know,

200

put your feet up round a cosy fire

in a, little, uh, historic pub.

201

If you're there in summer, go on

a hike along the cliffs and find a

202

secluded spot where you can just chill.

203

Daniel Edward: You mentioned going and

sitting in a pub, having some Dunbar

204

or, some other similar, Cornish, drink.

205

both Cornwall and neighbouring Devon

have quite a distinct food culture,

206

which is, famous beyond their borders.

207

both of them have their own take

on cream teas, which has led to a

208

fairly famous feud over the years as

to how it should correctly be done.

209

and of course, Cornwall has its pasties.

210

talk us through the

food scene of the area.

211

Richard Collett: obviously the most,

famous rivalry, like you said, is

212

the, cream or jam first debate.

213

because I'm not from here,

I'm somewhat in the middle.

214

So if I visit Cornwall, I'll go

the Cornish way, which I think

215

is jam first and Cream second.

216

If I'm in Devon, I'll do it the

Devon Way, which is Cream first.

217

I think if I'm getting, if I

get this wrong, I'm, you're

218

gonna get

219

slated in the

220

comments.

221

Daniel Edward: you've got it.

222

right.

223

Richard Collett: excellent.

224

I'll be kicked outta Devon.

225

There's a, there's an incredible

food scene on both sides of the,

226

the border between the two of them.

227

I think Cornwall's food scene is

perhaps more internationally well known

228

because you have, places like pto, where

of course you have celebrity chefs.

229

like, Rick Stein, who has his

famous fish and chip shop there.

230

and then a few others, Michael

Kanes and all these, other ones.

231

and they've sort of transformed places

like Padstow and Rock, which so rocks,

232

this little village which sits opposite

Padstow, opposite the estuary, and you

233

have to take a little ferry across there.

234

and there's these, you know, brilliant

high-end restaurants, I suppose you call

235

them on, both sides of this estuary.

236

There's also what's overlooked as

well is the more rustic kind of pubs

237

and restaurants you get, especially

along the coastlines, that don't

238

necessarily have the celebrity name

attached to them, but they also

239

don't have the celebrity price tag.

240

I'm not gonna lie, Cornwall can be quite

inexpensive place to visit these days.

241

if you're on a budget, there are, these

amazing lesser known pubs and restaurants

242

that you can visit, that just don't

have the same publicity, I suppose.

243

They don't have the allure, but

actually the food is, is almost as good.

244

People don't know about it yet.

245

One of the best examples of this, one

of my favourite restaurants in Cornwall

246

is on the lizard, which is this sort

of southern peninsula in the West.

247

I think it's the most southerly

point in mainland Britain anyway.

248

And there's this amazing little fishing

village, it's called Cadiff, and there's

249

this centuries old pub, it must be

400 years old perhaps, that sort of

250

sits directly on the Shingle beach.

251

And they have this community fishing

cooperative, setup going on there.

252

so you have generations of fishermen

who have sort of been clinging onto

253

this lifestyle, and this pub opposite

the fishing shed where they bring

254

in their catch buys all the fish

directly from the local fishermen.

255

and then they'll, cook it up for you,

whatever the catch of the day is, if it's

256

monk fish, or for breakfast for example,

you have a nice slab of, mackerel.

257

it's a good way to start

the day in Cornwall.

258

You don't have the crowds that

you'll get sort of queuing up

259

for fish and chips in padstow.

260

And you don't have, well,

you don't have the price tag

261

either, which I highly enjoy.

262

Daniel Edward: Absolutely

that makes a big difference.

263

The other thing which I feel makes,

, Cormo a slightly more expensive place to

264

visit is that you've sort of gotta make it

there on your own because of where it is.

265

And it is a little tricky to get to.

266

You tend to have to either

have a car or, hire a car.

267

Richard Collett: I would say it

depends on your planned itinerary.

268

so actually one of the most interesting

ways, if you're coming from London,

269

to get to Cormo is to take the Night

Riviera train, the overnight Sleeper,

270

everyone knows about the Caledonia

Express, which goes up to Edinburgh.

271

not as many people know about the Night

Riviera, which is, London, depends Zs, and

272

it's, about seven or eight hours, I think.

273

you don't get the most sleep.

274

you'll wake up a little bleary-eyed

and groggy in the morning.

275

but you can, either have a, seat if you

are, trying to save money, or you can,

276

have a, a nice, private cabin and that

will take you all the way to Penza.

277

The problem is when you get to Pen's zas,

you're then gonna have to use the buses or

278

trains to get around or hire a car, which

makes things a little bit more difficult.

279

but in the summer they do actually have,

or they used to have, anyway, I think

280

it was called the Atlantic Coaster Bus.

281

and it basically travelled around the

sort of Atlantic tip of Cornwall it

282

was just a regular bus service, but in

summer it's all open top, which is nice.

283

and you can sort of use that

to sort of hop on and hop off.

284

It's quite irregular, so it is definitely

possible to do Cornwall without a car.

285

You just need patience and

time and a bit of planning.

286

If you're looking to slow down a bit,

it's, not a bad way to get around.

287

Daniel Edward: How long would you say

somebody should consider going down to,

288

Cornwall or indeed combining with Devon?

289

Richard Collett: I would say it

depends where you're coming from.

290

assuming you're coming from the UK

for example, if you're coming from

291

London, you can probably do a long

weekend, in either Devon or Cornwall.

292

if you're trying to do both

in one trip, you might want

293

to consider at least a week.

294

I think it's almost better, like you were

saying to pick one, go to Cornwall, this

295

summer and next summer, try out Devon.

296

If you're coming from further afield, you

might wanna consider spending a bit longer

297

just 'cause it's such a, long journey.

298

people forget just how far away,

especially if you're driving

299

it, is to get to Cornwall.

300

So you're gonna wanna maximise

your time while you're down there.

301

Daniel Edward: You've got all of

these places almost on your doorstep.

302

It's great.

303

It's the old English

seaside and I love it.

304

Richard Collett: The, uh, English

Riviera I think they call it, don't they?

305

Daniel Edward: That call it.

306

So funny.

307

Richard Collett: yeah.

308

When you go to places like Torque and

the, the Tor Bay area, you kind of feel

309

like you're in a different era almost.

310

'cause you've got these sort of grand

Victorian hotels, which admittedly

311

a lot of them need a liquor paint.

312

but you've also got these sort of cabbage

palms and, you know, on a summer's

313

day it feels like you could be in,

Australia or New Zealand or somewhere.

314

it's beautiful.

315

Daniel Edward: It is funny that we call

it the English Riviera, because actually

316

if you look at the famous Rivieras of

Europe, which would be the, French and

317

Italian Rivieras, they were also English.

318

Richard Collett: Yeah, the English and

the Victorian, well, actually before

319

the Victorian era, the sort of late 17

hundreds, I think it was, the English

320

really started sort of pioneering.

321

tourism as we know, I mean, I don't

think they called it tourism at the time.

322

but what one of the interesting things

about eczema, which I discovered

323

recently, I don't think this is

very well known 'cause Msmith today.

324

luckily for someone who, lives here,

isn't that well known as a destination

325

in Devon, I don't think, unless

you are sort of living in Devon.

326

it was actually the first seaside resort,

if you could call it that in the country.

327

and the reason for that was because one

of the King Georges, whoever was sort

328

of king at that time, his physician,

his personal physician was sort of

329

prescribing the elite and the wealthy

to sort of go down to the seaside and

330

rejuvenate themselves with the sea

air to escape London or, wherever.

331

and Msmith became quite well known

for, its baths and stuff like that.

332

They, they're not here anymore,

unfortunately, that there is a pub

333

called the Bath House actually still

here, which draws on that heritage.

334

The original seaside town in England.

335

Daniel Edward: That is a new fact to me.

336

Pioneering.

337

Richard Collett: Pioneering.

338

Yeah.

339

Daniel Edward: It's funny, anytime I

think of xmo, I can't help but, think

340

of Exmouth, which is in Australia

and I was doing a cruise tour around

341

Australia, circumnavigating Australia,

and I was giving presentations about

342

the different places so I was doing a

lot of research beforehand online, and

343

Exmouth was one of these places that

I'd not been to, to such an extent that

344

I called it Exmouth, because of course

that's what we call our version in the

345

uk And I was doing my research and I was

thinking, oh, there's quite a lot here.

346

This is good.

347

And I said, that's odd.

348

It's very, very British feeling.

349

I was like, well, you know,

maybe Australia, maybe it

350

was because of who set it up.

351

Mm, okay.

352

Makes sense.

353

And I do all of this work on

it, and then I realise, no,

354

I've researched the wrong one.

355

I did all of this research by

xmu and I was going somewhere

356

on the other side of the world.

357

Richard Collett: I was

358

I, I did the working

holiday visa in Australia.

359

I was working not far from Exmouth, but

at the time, so I'm not actually from Exm

360

in Devon, I'm from, the home counties.

361

I'd never actually visited Exmouth.

362

so when I first came to Exm, I was

calling it Exmouth, which obviously the

363

locals weren't particularly happy with.

364

They were like, who's this American

or Australian chap coming in here?

365

I went back to Australia last year

actually and went up to Exmouth

366

and then had the reverse problem.

367

I was calling it ex Muff and locals

were saying, well, no, it's Exmouth.

368

Like, no, I live in the real exm now.

369

We get a lot of people in our local

community group on Facebook as well.

370

Sort a lot of tourists sort of

jump in to sort of asking, you

371

know, best local recommendations.

372

and you get a lot of people

asking where the best, reef

373

is or the best national park.

374

And you can pretty soon realise they've,

they've got the wrong community group and

375

they're talking about Western Australia.

376

Not heaven,

377

Daniel Edward: It is funny, as you go

around the world, there are so many

378

places that share a name because of,

shared histories across borders, and

379

not just across local borders, but

across borders that are so far flung.

380

this brings us to some of your wider

work because you've not just worked

381

in the UK and, focused on Cornwall

and Devon and other places within

382

the UK as a travel journalist,

you've gone all over the place.

383

Richard Collett: yeah, I've crossed

continents, I suppose you, you would say.

384

I think I've been to over

90 countries now, possibly.

385

I've been everywhere from, well,

Western Australia, like we were

386

saying, we used to work there.

387

To, you know, Georgia to

caucuses, central Asia, north

388

Africa, all over the place.

389

Really.

390

Daniel Edward: How do pick

where you're gonna go?

391

Richard Collett: I tend to focus on

sort of emerging tourist destinations,

392

I suppose you would call them, up and

coming tourist destinations, places

393

that I, I think should have a lot

more coverage or people should be a

394

lot more interested in than they are.

395

'cause I, seeing firsthand,

like we were talking about overt

396

tourism here, I'm always quite,

say concerned is the right word.

397

quite interested as well and how we

can spread tourism to places that wants

398

more tourism but doesn't necessarily

have the publicity to get it.

399

The work I do wants to show that, the

world isn't such a scary place We don't

400

all have to go to the same, beach town in

Italy or the same, destination in Europe.

401

Instead of going to Prague, I

would look at doing a piece on a

402

lesser known city in in de Czech

Republic, like Bruno for example.

403

Which is a two hour train ride away

and gets a fraction of the tourism,

404

but actually has as many breweries

and historical sites as Prague does.

405

I was in Albania 10 years ago, I

think, and you could tell then it was

406

gonna be this sort of up and coming

destination in the last two years.

407

it's sort of blown up.

408

everyone seems to be going to the

Albanian Riviera now 'cause they've

409

suddenly discovered the weather and

the beaches are as good as Italy, which

410

is literally just a ferry ride away.

411

There were less tourists

there anyway, I'm not sure.

412

Not so sure if that's the case anymore.

413

Daniel Edward: So would you say that

in your work over the last decade,

414

you've been trying to go to the places

that aren't quite ready for tourists

415

Richard Collett: yeah, I suppose

that's the way to put it.

416

I don't wanna sound like a snobby

traveller or anything like that.

417

I respect anyone that goes travelling,

goes on holiday, I think we're quite

418

privileged to be able to go anywhere.

419

but yeah, I, think

there's an element to it.

420

You know, if, you go to Venice for

example, these days, then you're

421

gonna be paying tourist taxes and

you're gonna get swept up in the tens

422

of thousands of other people that

are there on the same day as you.

423

I generally feel personally when I go

to places that are, are very well known

424

and on the tourist trail, I just get the

sense that the locals aren't necessarily

425

that interested in tourism anymore

apart from perhaps, you know, running a

426

business or getting some money from it.

427

so it's quite nice and refreshing

to be able to go somewhere, where

428

people are more interested in why you

are there as well and you can open

429

up more of your world to their world

and have these genuine interactions.

430

My goal is to try and show that blank

spaces on the map on actually blank.

431

there's reasons to go there whether

that's, the sites you can see,

432

the food you can eat, or just

local interactions you can have.

433

Daniel Edward: And that is the value

provided by a, travel journalist.

434

People will say, you're

spending life on holiday.

435

it's not quite like that.

436

are, you are researching places which

might become the next big thing for

437

people to consider, but somebody's

gotta go there first without a

438

helpful guide to work it out.

439

Through your career, you've written

all different forms of, travel

440

writing not just about different

places, but you've done a blog,

441

newsletters, articles for various,

websites and magazines and newspapers.

442

And this year you've

released your first book.

443

Richard Collett: Yes, I have.

444

Yeah, so my first book came

out at the end of April.

445

it's strange seeing it in the shops now

and actually seeing it on the shelf.

446

It's quite a, bizarre, feeling actually.

447

' as a journalist, you, you probably

know this too, it's one of the

448

big goals to write a book often.

449

and to actually see it published after

many years of, working on it is, surreal.

450

Daniel Edward: Uh, it's fantastic and

it's such an enjoyable book to read.

451

It's along the borders in search of what

divides and unites the British Isles.

452

is, so interesting for me reading it

coming from the British Isles, because

453

you think you know your own country.

454

And, and, and I always laugh when

people tell me that they've visited a

455

country it's a profound impossibility.

456

you can't visit a country, but actually

in this full length book, you are

457

starting to really visit a country.

458

'cause you've, you're unpacking

what's inside the sort of the

459

internal seams that make a country

either fall apart or come together.

460

Richard Collett: The book kind

of explores, all of the different

461

borders that divides, you know,

England and Wales and, Scotland and

462

England and, and all that stuff.

463

I think the surprising thing was that

you might see the UK or, or Britain is,

464

is sort of one country, but there's so

many countries within this country and,

465

and even within, the established home

nations, I guess, you know, even within

466

England and Scotland, you've almost got,

countries within countries there as well.

467

All these different regions.

468

I never appreciated till I started

researching, the book and, and

469

travelling along these different borders.

470

just how much, diversity, I

suppose you call it there, there

471

is within the United Kingdom

472

Daniel Edward: is amazing.

473

It was very eye-opening, to read it

because we're a very small country

474

and yet there's so much, so much here.

475

Richard Collett: it's absolutely

fascinating and actually the

476

whole idea for the book came

when I was here in Devon.

477

I ended up in Exm by accident during, the

pandemic, because my partner's grandma

478

lives here and her house was free so we

could kind of use it to, lock down it.

479

and it was when we were down here in

the Southwest, that I started to realise

480

how many different regions there are

within, you know, our small nation.

481

for example, my partner, she's half

Cornish, her grandma was Cornish, and

482

she started to show me that Cornwall

has this very different history

483

to England, even to Devon as well.

484

Devon and Cornwall have a

lot of similarities, but

485

also a lot of differences.

486

The Cornish have their Celtic

language, which almost died

487

out and is now being revived.

488

and I think a lot of holiday make that

go to the beaches in Cornwall and stuff

489

just for a weekend might not realise.

490

But a lot of people in Cornwall, do

feel very proudly Cornish, not English.

491

even though Cornwall's like technically

an English county, there's a lot of

492

people in Cornwall, you have Cornish

nationalists, in fact, who want an

493

independent Cornwall, and, they wanna

be recognised on the same level as

494

like Wales or Scotland, for example.

495

So there's, there's this real sense

of, of national pride in Cornwall.

496

and that was, that was one of the

things until I moved down here to

497

the southwest, that I never, realised

or understood or knew much about.

498

And then the more you sort of travel

around the uk, the more you go to the

499

edges, you know, to the, the sort of

distant places the more you realise

500

that there's such a range of, different

identities that people hold and are

501

proud of it's a really fascinating

place for us to live really the UK.

502

Daniel Edward: Did you find it very

different exploring borders, so close to

503

home compared to the borders that you've

explored in more far-flung destinations of

504

your previous journalism side of writing?

505

Richard Collett: definitely.

506

When I've been travelling to more distant

places from the uk, there's kind of

507

more of a detachment, I feel more like,

I'm more of a reporter, I suppose you

508

might put it, who's sort of looking at

the facts and both sides of the story.

509

giving an objective slant to

what's happening somewhere.

510

For example, in Eastern Turkey, here in

the uk it was quite different because

511

as much as I wanted to do that and, be

that sort of neutral narrator, I very

512

much found that I also had a stake in

this, you know, 'cause it's my country.

513

The whole premise of the book really

was that I was personally worried

514

that the country I live in, the United

Kingdom, is kind of fragmenting almost

515

because of, various political reasons.

516

You know, Scottish independence, Welsh

independence, Cornish independence,

517

all these sorts of things.

518

And because I was born in Scotland

and spent most of my life living in

519

England, I always saw myself as British.

520

I saw the United Kingdom as my country.

521

and that made me concerned that,

you know, in the future, my

522

country might not actually exist

if Scotland became independent.

523

so that sort of personal stake in

the journey, that personal worry.

524

That was what sort of kicked this journey

off and, Pushed me to visit all these

525

different borders in the United Kingdom

to see, what was actually happening if

526

the country was actually falling apart.

527

Daniel Edward: While reading the book,

I couldn't help but think I have in my

528

mind this idea that Britain's borders

have existed pretty much forever.

529

I mean, I date the country back to

10 66 when the Normans came over.

530

And I Sort of always position it as we are

arguably the oldest country in Europe by

531

virtue of the fact that as a relatively

small island, our borders haven't changed.

532

But then unpacking through the various

chapters as you worked your way around

533

the country, I realised that it's

not quite as neat and tidy as that.

534

Richard Collett: No, not at all.

535

And that, that was one of the things

that really sort of surprised me as well.

536

I think, as English people anyway, we have

a sort of tendency to sort of date history

537

back to, William the Conqueror, don't we?

538

When he sort of swept in

and changed everything.

539

And that's the kind of, you know,

founding date for modern England anyway.

540

but yeah, and actually sort of

reading into the history and

541

researching, the history of England.

542

It, it goes back a lot, further than that.

543

And there's, all these borders

that were sort of created in the,

544

the Anglo-Saxon era, for example,

that still have, relevance today.

545

one of the borders I researched was a

place called the Dane Law, which was sort

546

of this divide between Anglo-Saxon England

and the Viking north of England, which

547

was around the eight four ninth century ad

before William the Conqueror came along.

548

and this border still exists in the form

of the A five dual carriageway actually.

549

cause this used to be a Roman road

before it was the dual carriageway.

550

So it's this sort of nice, neat

diagonal line across England from

551

London up to Chester, or that direction.

552

Anyway, before the Normans came

along, the Vikings controlled a large

553

stretch of the north of England and,

you know, king Alfred and all these

554

famous English, kings, controlled the

south before England even existed.

555

and before the Normans came along, you

know, these two mediaeval powers sort

556

of battled each other and fought for

supremacy until, king Alfred's, grandson.

557

It was guy called King Ales Stan,

who has the most underrated English

558

king in history, I would say.

559

he sort of fought back against these

Vikings and created, uh, unified England.

560

this was all history that I

never really knew existed.

561

I think we always think

England's always been there.

562

but it Was never really

inevitable, I suppose.

563

Daniel Edward: And there is an

inevitability in our minds, not just

564

about the uk, but actually about

so many countries as they currently

565

are, that because they are currently

as they are, that must be it.

566

That's the story.

567

these countries were created

often through incredible feats.

568

Richard Collett: You kind of forget that,

you know, in a hundred years, even before

569

that, even in the next 10 years if the

Scottish National Party had their way, the

570

country that we think is, you know, always

existed and always will, may not exist.

571

Daniel Edward: We trick ourselves

into believing that there

572

is a permanence to things.

573

bringing it back to, Cornwall and Devon.

574

one of the things that I most love about

the area connecting to permanence, maybe

575

an ironic way, are some of the ruins

that you'll find there because it just

576

shows how long people have lived there

and it's the scars of, a civilization

577

that has held on by, tooth and claw just.

578

Richard Collett: Certainly, yeah, one

of the borders that I looked at in the

579

book is in the very far west of Cornwall.

580

it's not really a border in the

sense that you think of now, but

581

in terms of ancient history, it's

possibly one of the first examples of

582

a border, that humans have created.

583

So if you go to the far west of

Cornwall, the place is called pen whiff,

584

which means the land at the end, I

think, in canoe, which is the Cornish

585

language or it's derived from that.

586

you have these fields sort of between St.

587

Ives in the north and

penance in the south.

588

You have this kind of moland in these

fields and this moland is, sort of

589

divided by these ancient stone barriers.

590

And if you go there, you might look at

them first of all and think, oh, these

591

are just, you know, field boundaries.

592

and they are field boundaries, but

they're the oldest field boundaries in

593

the country and possibly in the world.

594

They date back 6,000 years or 4,000

years or something to the sort of, you

595

know, the earliest Bronze age, farmers.

596

that was one of the inspirations, you

know, for the sort of historical elements

597

in my book was this area in Cornwall

where these neolithic farmers had decided

598

that, this area of the mo this will be

mine and you can have this other area.

599

And they built slate and, granite

boundaries using the rocks around them.

600

and over time, you know, these earliest

borders have evolved into the nation

601

states and borders that we see today.

602

amazingly those field

boundaries are still there.

603

They still have this, continuity from

6,000 years ago or however long it is.

604

You just feel like you're in a,

there's this ancient world which is

605

yeah, probably one of my favourite

places in Cornwall actually.

606

Daniel Edward: thinking about Cornwall

and Devon what would you say is the top

607

thing to do in the Southwest of the uk?

608

Richard Collett: The top thing to

do in Southwest the uk I would say

609

is walk the southwest coast path.

610

Now you don't have to walk the

entire 630 miles, I think it is.

611

It's a very long way.

612

but it is honestly one of the most

spectacular walking trails I've ever

613

attempted anywhere in the world.

614

it's incredible.

615

You can do a day hike from one town to

the next, or you can try and do all 600

616

odd miles of it, as a lot of people do.

617

it's the easiest way to, get out there

and, see parts of Devon and Cornwall

618

and a little bit of Somerset and dors

it as well, that a lot of people don't

619

see unless you are on that trail.

620

The southwest coast path starts up

in Minehead, which is in Somerset

621

on the north coast, it comes all the

way along the Devon coast, and then

622

all the way to lands end, and then

comes all the way around, along the

623

South Cornish coast, the South Devon

coast, and then it ends in pool.

624

it's a very long way.

625

It's a very long way.

626

Daniel Edward: What would you say is a,

tourist trap or a common mistake to avoid?

627

Richard Collett: I would say

the biggest tourist trap is St.

628

Ives.

629

I'm not saying don't go to St.

630

Ives, but I think the mistake

people make is going to St.

631

Ives in the peak of summer, or

specifically probably in the peak

632

of school holidays, when it's

absolutely impossible to find

633

anywhere to park unless you're at

probably there at four in the morning.

634

And even then you might struggle.

635

there's just too many people

for my liking, and I don't think

636

anyone , in no offence to St.

637

Ives would have an

enjoyable day out in St.

638

Ives in peak season.

639

as I was saying at the start, the best

way to sort of counter that, 'cause St.

640

Ives is of course a absolutely

gorgeous little fishing village.

641

A lot of history there, a lot of art

there I think the best way to counter

642

that is to go there in the off season,

go there in spring or autumn, when

643

you'll possibly get a few sunny days.

644

just avoid at all costs in summer.

645

Just don't, don't go there, guys.

646

Don't go there.

647

Daniel Edward: and that preempts

the next question, which is, what is

648

your favourite time of year to visit?

649

Richard Collett: I would say my

favourite time of year to visit is

650

sort of autumn or spring, if I'm sort

of exploring some of the beaches and

651

you might want that summer and stuff.

652

but I found out last, of December,

I went on a very wintery walk along

653

the southwest coast path along the

coast in a place called Lu, which

654

is just sort of on the, eastern

side of the south coast of Cornwall.

655

in summer it's quite busy, but in winter

there's obviously almost no one around.

656

But when you've got the mist coming

down over the estuaries and you've

657

got the frost on the floor, as long as

it's not a rainy day as long as it's,

658

you know, a crisp kind of cold day.

659

That was actually one of the most

enjoyable, days out I've had in Cornwall.

660

Daniel Edward: it sounds atmospheric.

661

Richard Collett:

Atmospheric, that's the word.

662

Yeah.

663

Daniel Edward: Do you have a

book or film recommendation for

664

people interested in the area?

665

Richard Collett: Yeah, if you are

interested in Cornwall and a little bit

666

of Devon as well, one of my favourite

books came out maybe two years ago.

667

It's by a fellow travel

writer called Tim Hannigan.

668

he's from Cornwall.

669

He grew up in Cornwall.

670

and he studies a lot of these ideas about

identity as well, and Cornish history and

671

how it's separate from English history.

672

and he also tackles subjects like

overt tourism 'cause he's grown

673

up in these places where he's seen

the effects that tourism can have.

674

He kind of walks across Cornor, sort of

retracing his, childhood and, teenage

675

years where he spent in these places.

676

so it's a great kind of travel and

nature writing combined with this kind

677

of look at the Cornish identity, how it's

changed, what it means to be Cornish I

678

think the big takeaway is rather than

seeing Cornwall as just this tourist

679

destination where you go for the beaches,

it's kind of looking at Cornwall in a

680

different light as, you know, people

who are, distinct and deserving of their

681

own identity it's really interesting.

682

Daniel Edward: What would you

say is the top food or drink

683

to try when you're in the area?

684

Richard Collett: Oh, that is a tough one.

685

I mean, if it's your first

time in the area, you of

686

course have to try two things.

687

You have to try the cream teas

and you have to try the pastis.

688

Now there's an interesting thing

as well, because I think Devin also

689

claims that, the pasti originated here.

690

that's a debate for another time, I think.

691

they're slightly different.

692

So the Devon Pasty is sort

of crimped in a different way

693

and shaped in a different way.

694

So Cornish pasty.

695

but yeah, those are the two

sort of stereotypical items

696

you really have to try.

697

If you're looking for something a bit

broader than the sort of stereotypically

698

Cornish and Devon stuff, the seafood

down here is just phenomenal.

699

It's absolutely spectacular.

700

every pub you go to that's on the

coast, every town you go to has, you

701

know, a dedicated seafood restaurant.

702

We've got a seafood barbecue here

in emu, where they kind of do

703

this, this sort of fusion of Asian

flavours with locally caught, fish

704

or whatever the fish of the day is.

705

And it's just absolutely incredible.

706

the modern food scene here away

from the pastis, the cream cheese

707

is just, yeah, it's something else.

708

One of the best fish and chips you'll

ever have in your life is here.

709

Inmi again.

710

Um, one of our local fish and chip

shops won the award for best fish and

711

chips in the country a few years ago.

712

so I'm not, I'm not just saying that

has been proven by a panel of judges.

713

and they do this very sort of, Devon

thing, which is a, a battered chip.

714

So they cover the chip, just

your average sort of chip in, in

715

batter, like the batter from a fish

and then sort of double fry it.

716

it's not healthy, it's not

good for your, heart, but it's,

717

it's good for your soul.

718

Daniel Edward: And if somebody wants

to take home a souvenir from their time

719

visiting Cornwall or Devon, what sort of

things should they keep an eye out for?

720

That's not one of those mass

produced caps or a t-shirt.

721

Richard Collett: that's a tough question.

722

Devin and Cornwall are both quite

proud of their distinctive flags.

723

I think again, because there's this

kind of rivalry between the two.

724

So the corners flag is

the black and white.

725

There's a black field and a white cross.

726

It's the flag of their

patron saint, Saint Prin.

727

and then the Devon flag is

white cross on a green field.

728

I'm not saying get like a big flag

and hang up and you kind or anything

729

like that, um, but you, you'll

always find these little, bumper

730

stickers or fridge magnets that have

the Devon or Cornwall flag on it.

731

personally, I quite, I quite like

them, but I'm a, big lover of flags,

732

There's a, there's a word as well.

733

I always forget what the

word is for a lover of flags.

734

It's a brilliant word.

735

ve, the Vology, that's the word.

736

Daniel Edward: Vology.

737

Wow.

738

I would

739

Richard Collett: you are a ologist

yeah, you, you're a study of flags,

740

Daniel Edward: well, Richard Collet,

travel journalist and author of

741

Along the Borders in Search of What

Divides and Unites the British Isles.

742

Thank you so much for unlocking

Coleman and Devonport.

743

Richard Collett: No problem at all.

744

Thank you for having me on the show.

745

Daniel Edward: Well, thank you once again

to Richard Collett who wrote the brand

746

new book along the Borders in search of

what divides and unites the British Isles

747

for all of that insight into Cornwall

and Devon and the identity and stories

748

around it, and also some really useful

tips that you can put into practise if

749

you were planning your own trip there.

750

It's a wonderful part of the country,

so if you are making your way to the

751

UK and you've got a bit of time to

get away from the big cities, I can't

752

recommend Cornwall and Devon enough.

753

It used to be our family

holiday every summer.

754

Absolutely love it down there,

and I'm sure you will too.

755

If you go, let me know.

756

Love to hear from you, and if this

is the first time you've found this

757

podcast, I highly recommend clicking a

follow wherever it is you're currently

758

listening, and that way when you want

to go travelling somewhere else in the

759

future, it'll be super easy for you to

find us again and see if we've got another

760

episode on where you're going next.

761

Okay, catch you then.

762

Have a good day.

763

Bye-bye.