In this episode of Documentary First, Christian sits down with filmmaker Jessica Levin, co-director and producer of the Critics Choice Documentary Awards in the Best Music Documentary-nominated HBO documentary Billy Joel: And So It Goes. Jessica shares what it was like to tell the story of Billy Joel—not just as a legendary musician, but as a human being full of depth, contradiction, humor, and heart.

Together, they explore the craft of music documentary filmmaking: how to build trust during intimate interviews, how to follow emotional truth rather than timeline, and how music itself can become the spine of a narrative. Jessica opens up about the collaborative process behind shaping the film’s nonlinear structure, as well as the responsibility that comes with telling a story about someone the world already feels like they know.

Whether you are a filmmaker, a musician, or someone whose life has ever been held by a song — this conversation is creative, heartfelt, and filled with insights about storytelling, memory, and what it means to truly listen.

Links:

American Masters: American Masters (TV Series 1985– ) - Reference view - IMDb

Billy Joel: And So It Goes: Billy Joel: And So It Goes (TV Mini Series 2025) - Reference view - IMDb

Inventing David Geffen: "American Masters" Inventing David Geffen (TV Episode 2012) - Reference view - IMDb

Joni Mitchell: A Women of Heart and Mind: "American Masters" Joni Mitchell: A Woman of Heart and Mind (TV Episode 2003) - Reference view - IMDb

The Janes: The Janes (2022) - Reference view - IMDb

DocuView Déjà Vu

The Andy Warhol Diaries, 2022, Limited Series with 6 episodes, watch on Netflix, IMDB Link: The Andy Warhol Diaries (TV Mini Series 2022) - Reference view - IMDb

Time Codes

00:00 — Opening Reflections

02:54 — Early Relationships and Artistic Roots

05:31 — Balancing Myth and Humanity

08:19 — Creating Space for Vulnerability in Interviews

11:06 — Collaboration as Creative Strength

13:50 — Following Emotional Truth, Not Just Timeline

16:38 — How Personal Relationships Shape Art

19:15 — Challenges of Documenting a Cultural Icon

22:03 — Crafting a Nonlinear Story Structure

24:55 — The Reality of Producing a Major Music Documentary

27:42 — Audience Reaction and Cultural Memory

30:14 — Tracking Billy Joel’s Musical Influences

33:02 — What Makes His Music Resonant

36:46 — Lyrics as Self-Understanding

40:06 — Love, Loss, and the Songs Between

42:49 — Building Trust On and Off Camera

47:34 — Leadership in Storytelling

51:26 — Scoring the Emotional Arc

56:01 — Why Structure Matters

58:59 — Personal Growth Through Filmmaking

1:02:01 — Final Thoughts & Recommendations

Sponsor: Virgil Films http://www.virgilfilms.com/

Support us by buying merch or watching our films: https://documentaryfirst.com/

of beauty there.

2

So we're going to push record because a lot of stuff comes in the beginning.

3

And sometimes we use social media clips where we may say one or two things just in a, I

don't know, people we may be able to use.

4

But the reason I asked you if you had talked to Steve recently, I wondered he had been on

our podcast and it was back on June 26th, but we, you we air that's your birthday.

5

Well,

6

He was busy with me that day.

7

He may have come to a party for you, in that, in that evening, he was busy with me and we

then released the podcast later.

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I mean, actually recently, so it wasn't that long ago.

9

and, but in my personal life, it was a really interesting thing that happened because it

was a very special, special moment for me.

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Billy Joel has been.

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um I mean, almost the soundtrack of my life since I was a kid, I lived in Long Island and

he was just, I just loved Billy Joel.

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And so um to be able to talk with Steve and talk about this film, I stayed up till 2 a.m.

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the night before watching it, because HBO didn't get it to me.

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Yeah, they didn't get it to me till like the evening, like 5 p.m.

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And I was not going to talk to him without watching it.

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And so I watched both, um

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both parts and was just so incredibly moved by all of it.

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And one of the things that was very meaningful to me was the way that Billy talked about

his mother.

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And I loved what you guys did with how he was honest about who she was, and he was honest

about both sides.

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He was honest about her challenges with her mental um and emotional capabilities, and how

they harmed him.

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but also how she was the one beneath his wings in a lot of ways and how she, you know,

inspired him.

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And I loved that, um, that dichotomy and how you treated that and he treated that with

honor and wasn't demeaning.

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And I had a lot of the same issues with my own mom.

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And so as I watched this whole film, as with any Billy Joel song, you begin to relate to

what he is going through and learn from him.

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And so,

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I learned so much through your documentary.

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So for me, it wasn't a documentarian sitting back and kind of critiquing a documentary.

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I tried to do that, but I got too engrossed as uh a fan and somebody just listening to

your story.

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And so as I was talking to Steve and telling him this, explaining that that was one of the

great things I thought about your film.

30

I set a line, is, really hope my mom's not watching this uh and explain what I just told

you.

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And the next morning I wake up and I'm packing to go on a trip for a big surgery where I

was going to be out for a few weeks.

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And I get a call and I hear that my mom has died and completely suddenly and totally

unexpected.

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Yeah, it was, it was crushing and heartbreaking and um

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It was, it was, I don't know.

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It was crazy for me because that interview with Steve was such a highlight of my life.

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And so I went from this incredible, amazing night.

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It was at night and I woke up the next morning and I don't know.

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I, it was just almost felt like it was these bookends in some sense.

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and I had had this cathartic thing the night before.

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and was really thinking about my mom, but was thinking about the same thing Billy Joel

was, the positives and the negatives of a mom who had emotional challenges and how it

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impacted me.

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So, you know, your film for me personally means a lot and it will never be forgotten.

43

so, for me,

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It may have been a minute since I talked to Steve, but it's just, it's very, very um

current.

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yeah, well.

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Christian, that's very moving.

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It's very moving.

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And I do think that it hasn't been an uncommon reaction.

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Obviously, your story is extreme and I am so sorry for your loss.

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really like my heart goes to you.

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And especially when something is sudden, that can be really affecting in a way that you

just don't even expect.

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But I will say that

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four weeks.

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oh I will say that, God, it's still very raw, I'm sure.

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I would say that your experience is not an uncommon thing that we've heard from people,

which has been really gratifying that they really understood and embraced the emotional

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arc of the film and that many of the relationships we touched on, because obviously the

parental relationships in Billy's life,

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or paramount to who he became and not just during his childhood and how it then affected

him, but that it affected him throughout his career and throughout his life.

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And I think many of us can relate to that.

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um

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you know, especially those of us who may not have perfect relationships with our parents,

um you know, these things stay with you, you know, throughout your life.

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And I think many of the things that you do um can be reactions to that.

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And I think that em all I'm saying is that people have really latched onto that in a lot

of ways in the film and it has affected people really deeply because they can relate to...

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um

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those relationships you try to unravel really for your entire adult life and try to make

sense of them.

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And the way Billy made sense of them was through his artistry and through his music.

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And that was something really important that Susan and I bonded about very early on in the

making of the film.

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First as a producer with my fellow producer Emma Pildes and I and Susan, the three of us

have worked together for...

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a long time and I, Susan and I have worked together for almost 25 years, if you can

believe that.

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uh But uh we bonded early on about the fact that we knew that the emotional core of the

story was complex and that it was very important that, um you know, we dig deep with Billy

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in terms of the music and the...

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personal story and how those things related.

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Because I think a lot of people don't realize how autobiographical his music is.

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And I think that when we kind of happened upon that, Susan and I really bonded over that

and we were like, wow, this is incredible.

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Like it's almost like his songs.

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are ripped from the journal of his life.

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know, if he were, you know, it was like that's the way he processed his emotions was

through his music, through his lyrics, through his, you know, the outpouring of emotions.

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And that comes on a lot of different levels.

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Of course, some of them are, you know, super.

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obviously, you know, personal about specific relationships.

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And we go into some of that in the film.

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And I think that people really enjoyed hearing those stories and understanding how really

exactly related it was.

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Like, for example, like you may be right, you know, people are like, how is it?

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That's exactly what happened in his life.

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And then he put it into his song.

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Yes, that was Billy.

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He really, he took, now not that everything was exactly, uh what's the word, word for word

or verbatim to his life, but you know, that.

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that's what makes an artist special, right?

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They're able to take these things and kind of, I think it's Elizabeth who says in the

film, know, an artist takes this and that and they shake it up and they make magic.

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That's Billy, but it's really extraordinary when you start to understand the, you know,

the incredible relationship between his life and his music.

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And whether that was personal relationships, whether those were observations he was making

in his community or his friends, or, you know, things that were happening, like uh one

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thing, like one song I'm thinking of right now.

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That's not about him, but his personal is the song James, for example, which is written

about a friend of his.

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I don't know how deep of a fan you are, so I don't know if the songs I'm gonna be about

are.

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So for example, the song James, or even in the song uh My Life, where he talks about, uh

you know, whose friend who went out to the West Coast, that's about a real person.

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ah Okay, well, you know all this, but not all people do, but in any.

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mean, our audience may not, but what's, what's amazing.

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I mean, you even think about the ones we, everybody knows, which is piano man.

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mean, go, go, go back and go to piano man, which everyone knows.

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And everyone thinks, Oh, that's probably just, you know, a made up song because it's kind

of so generic.

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No, it actually has its roots in exactly what happened.

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But you know, you were a hundred percent right that you guys made the right choice.

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in how you told it because what's so real about his music and timeless and why it's so

relatable is the fact and you hit on this almost immediately is that it is pulled directly

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ripped from the heart of his life.

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And it's true.

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Some of those things are true for all of us in one way or another, we can relate to the

struggles of his life and maybe not to his death, you know, but yes.

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other piece of it that we didn't know going into this.

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And first of all, let me just say, since we are recording, that Susan Lacey sends her best

and was sorry not to be on this podcast.

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I will do my best to represent her, but if you're ever able to get her on a one-on-one,

you will certainly enjoy it.

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She's a wonderful storyteller and speaker.

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But I think one thing I would like to just talk about for a moment is, m

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how Billy did open up and begin to reveal himself.

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And I do think that um a person like Billy Joel or anybody who has been in the public eye

for as many years as he has and as many run-ins that he's had with the press, positive,

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negative, everything in between, he lived his life in the public eye for better or for

worse.

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If you think about...

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his relationship and marriage to Christie Brinkley.

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I mean, that entire relationship played out in the public eye.

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And I think that was quite difficult, ah know, quite difficult for him.

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So all I'm saying is that he came to this process, I don't think knowing what to expect

and why should he, other than our reputation and Susan's incredible reputation as the...

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filmmaker who founded American Masters and had made, you know, umpteen films about

incredible artists.

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Everybody from Leonard Bernstein, Bob Dylan.

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We made a film about John Lennon called Lenny NYC.

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Pardon?

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Spielberg.

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I mean, Jane Fonda, he knew obviously that we had a strong body of work, but I don't think

he knew how that was gonna translate into reality.

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And so I think coming into the process,

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He had trepidations like any artist like him would about, know, they're just gonna tell

the same old stories.

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They're just gonna rehash.

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Why do I need to talk about these things?

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And I think that Susan was quite clever in the way that she approached the interviews

besides him being in front of a piano, which I know, which is as we talk about it, as he

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says at the beginning of the film, it's my security blanket.

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I wanna hide behind the piano.

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which is really true.

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mean, if you, what was so amazing, Christine, when we would come in to set up for the

interviews, we would be, we would have the crew all around buzzing about him and whatever.

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He would walk in when he was ready to come in there, you walk in, sit right down at the

piano and just start playing.

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know, it didn't matter.

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I it might be classical.

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It might be a show tune.

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might be, you know, something you heard on the radio.

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It might be, you know, something that was on his mind or he would just sit down and start

playing.

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And we would all just sort of fall into a fascination watching him because

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Obviously he's so talented and he can play anything that he can hear.

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So he would just be noodling and we would just enjoy that so much.

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So having him at the piano was very key in making him comfortable.

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But also Susan started from places that they had things in common.

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She started with his story about his own family's backstory in Nazi Germany, which go

ahead, you wanna ask me something?

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What I wanna do is I wanna start our podcast.

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So we just jumped in.

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Yeah, I know, I haven't even started our opening.

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This was our just little warmup get to know you.

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So let me start our podcast and uh well, this is wonderful.

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So we're gonna start and actually uh we're gonna kinda start over.

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All right, everybody, welcome to Documentary First, an inside look at documentary

filmmaking.

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I'm your host, Christian Taylor and a documentary filmmaker myself.

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uh

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If you have been looking at the title of this episode, Unlocking Icons, Jessica Levin on

Billy Joel, American Masters and the Art of the Interview, you already know that we have a

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distinguished guest on our show.

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So let's jump right in.

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Actually, we already have.

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And what we're gonna do is we're gonna do what all good documentaries do is as you've been

listening, we have started already.

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with the beginning of this conversation because we just jumped right in and began talking

about the wonderful movie uh that Jessica Levin and her co-producer, Lacey have put out,

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co-director, sorry, co-director, Susan Lacey just put out, and so it goes, the story about

Billy Joel's life.

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And so I have the immense pleasure of welcoming Jessica Levin.

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Jessica, welcome to the show.

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Thank you so much, Christian.

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It's a pleasure to be here.

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Okay, now before we get started, I did have an icebreaker to throw at you, which we don't

really need, but I wanna give it to you anyway.

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So if you were to pick one Billy Joel song as your life soundtrack right now, I know, come

on now, I am, I am.

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And maybe you don't have to be the life soundtrack, but let's just say you wanted to pick

one that you really love or that kind of is playing in your head all the time.

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Give me one.

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Christian, that is one of the most difficult questions that I get.

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And this is because I am a lifelong fan.

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And I'm glad that I was able to bring that to the table in terms of the collaboration with

Susan.

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She came to things from kind of a bird's eye view.

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But um we ended up meeting in the middle very much with our intellectual and emotional

approach.

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two-hour subject, but um that's a tough one for me.

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What I will say is that um I really rediscovered or discovered Cold Spring Harbor, the

Cold Spring Harbor album um in a way that I hadn't before.

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I had heard it, but it wasn't really on my playlist.

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And I think that, you know, there are some really beautiful songs on that.

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um And I think that...

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Island?

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I'm not, no.

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I grew up in Manhattan and Connecticut, tri-state, know, but, um you know, my brother uh

gave me the first album that he gave me as a gift was Street Life Serenade.

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um And now let's see, that would have been in the early 80s and that album's from 1974.

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but he was always sort of throwing different music at me and stuff.

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He was a little bit of my musical mentor early in my life.

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And so that was the first album I became very familiar with.

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And I really loved it because it had such a sweeping kind of, you know, melodic kind of

epic feel to it.

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And it was deep dripping with satire and I just enjoyed it so much.

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And so that was my first exposure to Billy Joel.

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So I knew him as a true deep melodist.

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Yeah.

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somebody who, um you know, there was a lot of many layers in his songs.

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And now when I first met Billy, I was quite proud that I was a big fan of Street Life

Serenade.

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And I said to him, you know, it's such a pleasure to meet you.

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I'm such a big fan.

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You know, my favorite album is Street Life Serenade.

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And I was just so proud of myself.

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like, no one ever says that, you know?

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And he said to me, well, that's my least favorite album.

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I was rushed into the studio and I just don't think there's very good work on it and

whatever and blah blah blah and I was so embarrassed and I was like okay well obviously I

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didn't do enough research to be able to have that conversation but that is very indicative

of Billy.

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He's very tough on himself.

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He doesn't really, he's not a guy who who sits comfortably in a place of praise.

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And now whether what that has to do with his own upbringing you know we we could delve

into but

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that's not really a place that he's comfortable in any case.

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He's always self-deprecating and he always puts humor into all of his answers and all of

the ways that he relates.

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em But I don't know, I think some songs that I discovered, I guess I didn't know that the

song on Cold Spring Harbor was um about Elizabeth, about his relationship with Elizabeth.

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Sure.

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lot of people that may not even know who she is.

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And I consider myself a big fan and I did not know.

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So Elizabeth Weber was Billy Joel's first wife and his manager.

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um And they had a tremendous collaboration that lasted probably a decade all the way

through, I guess, glass houses, it probably was.

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Nylon Curtain, there are some songs that are about their relationship, but they were

pretty much fizzling out at that point.

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um But Elizabeth Weber, uh Billy fell in love with Elizabeth when they were young.

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I mean, young, I mean, 20 years old probably.

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And she was married to his bandmate.

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It was quite the scandal.

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she was married to his bandmate.

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Now that was a marriage of convenience.

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She was pregnant and she had said to him, we need to get married.

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And so they did, but I don't think they were ever a really true love match.

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But nonetheless.

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because the three of them living in the house together very quickly, he and Billy, she and

Billy Joel became very close.

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And they had been close because being, know, Elizabeth's brother and John Small were in

The Hassles.

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Billy, Billy, I believe if I have this factoid correct, I believe Billy replaced her

brother in the band and The Hassles.

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And this is in, you know, the late sixties.

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So Elizabeth knew Billy all the way back.

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And I think we talk about in the film.

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that she observed him very early on before they became involved and said, wow, this guy

really has tremendous work ethic and he's very talented.

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He was certainly not Billy Joel at that point.

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He was just a guy from Long Island who was in a band.

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But they did get along and they clicked just as friends and it developed into something

more.

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it was quite a heartbreak both for him, his dear friend, John Small and Elizabeth.

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And they all went their separate ways at that point.

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And that's when Billy...

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really sunk into a deep depression because he just felt so guilty that he had broken up

his best friend's marriage.

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So Elizabeth um and Billy had a tremendous love, tremendous collaboration.

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And when they broke up, she left the scene.

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She left the rock and roll business.

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She left Billy's life.

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She left behind the entire Billy Joel organization.

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She moved out to California and basically did not speak to them for four decades.

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um if you can believe that.

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I know it's hard to believe, but true.

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There were, her stepson, her, Billy's stepson, Elizabeth's son, Sean, had girlfriends that

didn't even know that his mother was ever married to Billy Joel.

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I mean, it was like, just, it wasn't a thing they talked about at all.

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So the fact that she spoke in this film was groundbreaking for fans for the story.

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was remarkable.

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And I will tell you, one of the things that was absolutely stunning to me was how so many

of his past broken life relationships were willing to come on and interview in this

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documentary.

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In some ways, maybe it didn't happen in real life, but in some ways in the documentary, it

felt

252

like a very cathartic um healing, know, uh maybe had happened that they were willing to

come on and speak because they didn't speak poorly of Billy.

253

They just talked about what it was and kind of had accepted what it was.

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um But, know, this kind of goes to the first big question I want to ask you because this

is no surface documentary.

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This documentary goes

256

deep into the heart of a very complex person, as you said, um a person who though is very

closed.

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And like you said, who needs a security blanket.

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You've said that once already.

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He does not take praise well.

260

You said that also.

261

So he's already, you can tell, got these defenses up.

262

And not only that, you can tell that this is a guy who doesn't easily talk to people.

263

or let them in because he writes songs to deal with his stuff, right?

264

So here you already know, and not only that, um know, weird, we're told from the beginning

of the documentary that lots of people, or maybe that was in my conversation with Steve

265

Cohen, my other podcast um was told that lots of people had asked him to do documentaries

and he just kind of blew them off.

266

So that's inside info I have from Steve.

267

True.

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all of this.

269

And so my big question to you, because what was remarkable to me was how you guys were

able to make him so comfortable that he was willing to just lay his heart bare, his heart

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and his life.

271

And I know, and I know personally, this is not, this is an art cultivated over time.

272

um And it's not, it's something that's learned and sometimes it's innate by documentary

filmmakers.

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And so I really need you to think about how to teach this to our young filmmakers as best

you can.

274

Okay, so first of all, I want to say that um Susan Lacey did the interviews.

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I think it's important for me to say most of them.

276

I did a few, but she did all the interviews of Billy and sure, yes, of course.

277

Go ahead.

278

You can do it if you like.

279

in the beginning.

280

I'm going to let you do a quick bio for her just because we want to focus on what you have

to tell us.

281

You're here and talk about you have a company together or you're in a company and let's

talk a little bit about that.

282

And hopefully she'll come back on the show and we'll get into her full bio and unpack her

life.

283

um

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really enjoy it.

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um Susan Lacey came onto the documentary scene by founding the series American Masters.

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I believe it was 1986 or 1987.

287

And her goal in creating that series was to create um a record of the body of work of

American artists.

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to make films about American artists and to understand them in depth so that you could

understand the genesis of the art and the importance and put it in context in American

289

history and American cultural history.

290

Now that came in a lot of different forms.

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You know, it wasn't a cookie cutter series like some series are.

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It didn't have a narrator.

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It was a collective of filmmakers.

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A filmmaker might come to her with an idea, I want to do a film about Robert Capa.

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And they would come and it would be a collaboration.

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Susan would help with developing it, sometimes help with raising money.

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And that series ran on...

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Public television and still is on public television and she ran it for 30 years But it was

her life's mission to create this record of American artists so she is a person who is

299

well steeped in American cultural culture and arts and Many many other subjects had

trusted her, know prior so if you kind of like take that as kind of your you know, your

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your starting point um on this project and in terms of the

301

left and started this own company.

302

did you start working with her at PBS?

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Did you guys meet there?

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Okay.

305

we started working together in about 2000 or so.

306

Our first collaboration was on a film called Joni Mitchell, Woman of Heart and Mind.

307

ah We bonded very early because we were both very big Joni Mitchell fans.

308

I came to her, she needed a producer and I came to her and we just bonded.

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just spiritually and emotionally and intellectually bonded over how important Joni

Mitchell's work was and how important of a figure she was.

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in that moment in time in the um confessional folk movement of that moment of the early

70s, late 60s, early 70s.

311

So we made that film together I produced.

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And I just produced every film she did at American Masters from that point forward in

terms of her as a director.

313

There were other films that were done that she wasn't director of that I didn't produce.

314

But um so I produced everything she directed at American Masters.

315

And then we made a film called Inventing David Geffen.

316

Yes, I love that film.

317

So great.

318

one.

319

For your audience, that film is a lot of fun and really a ride.

320

It's a great ride through Hollywood and the behind the scenes of the business and the

music business.

321

And, you know, he's just a fantastic character, David Geffen, and really interesting.

322

He was another one that was not so easy to get to open up, by the way.

323

Yes, but he did.

324

And I think he was happier for it.

325

And I think frequently this happens with the artists.

326

They're very closed and they're concerned and they don't know.

327

But then when they see the finished product, I think they're happy that they went there,

so to speak.

328

So anyway, so we made this movie, Susan directed, and I produced that.

329

um And HBO suddenly showed up and said, why are you guys not making films for us?

330

And Susan said, hmm.

331

I don't know, why are we?

332

no, was, you know, what happened in public television and as you know is happening in an

accelerated pace um at this very moment in time is that you have to raise money.

333

you know, PBS has a certain amount of money that, you know, helps to fund some of the

larger series, but much of it is uh you have to raise the money for each film.

334

And I think for Susan, the specter of I'm not gonna have to raise money and that HBO is

gonna commission these films,

335

Suddenly a light went off and she was like, okay, I'm ready, you know?

336

And she said to me and to our other key person in Pandamanda Productions, Emma Pildes, who

directed a film called The Janes a couple of years ago, which was shortlisted for an

337

Oscar, um she came to the two of us and she said, well, I wanna do this, but I'm not gonna

do it without you guys because we are like a family, we're a team and we're close, know,

338

close collaborators.

339

So we said yes and that was 2013, I think.

340

And so it's been what, over 10 years.

341

So we made several films.

342

We've made several films for HBO and it's been a really wonderful uh place to, filmmaking

home.

343

HBO is a very artist friendly place.

344

sort of, em I guess they, their tagline is like prestige television sort of in a way.

345

And that was a comfortable place for us because I think they understood.

346

that we weren't just trying to turn something out, that we were trying to make things that

were definitive and that were going to really go deep and where you were gonna learn about

347

these artists and these figures in a way that you wouldn't otherwise, maybe not even by

reading the book.

348

Oh, listen, and you guys have knocked them out of the park.

349

mean, they could not have, you know, they bet the farm, but they, you know, made a very

safe bet uh on you guys.

350

And, you know, your work has just been stellar.

351

And, you know, obviously with this film, this two part series, I mean, it is a five hour

documentary.

352

uh I can imagine, I can only imagine how can you do

353

documentary about Billy Joel and all of his songs and it not be.

354

I just can't imagine.

355

I can't imagine what you

356

then we, Susan actually made the decision, we've got to get this down to two episodes.

357

But we really didn't go that much out because each episode is almost two and half hours.

358

oh

359

I watched it in succession.

360

I, and again, I told this in my other podcast.

361

I didn't even start watching it till like, I don't know.

362

It was very late, like eight or nine PM one night, cause I didn't get it till late.

363

And I was, it got till 1130 and I was like, Oh man, should I keep going?

364

I couldn't not keep going.

365

Like I just had to, it did not feel like a five hours that I was watching this story.

366

Yeah.

367

you know, each film and each piece of art that you make about an artist needs to reflect

that particular story.

368

So we don't come into films and Susan doesn't come into films with a preconceived notion.

369

This is going to be, you know.

370

90 minutes, this is going to be whatever, this is going to be how this film.

371

We frequently are just driven by the interviews, certainly in this case we were, because

Billy, as he went along, he really began to open up and this story arc really revealed

372

itself um by the things that he spoke about and the fact that he was able to tap into

emotions that we didn't know where he was gonna go and the fact that he went there enabled

373

us.

374

to tell that story and to tell that deeper emotional story.

375

And you asked the question, you know, you know, interviews and getting people to open up.

376

How did you get there?

377

How did you get him?

378

Because originally, he basically, you know, I think he told Stephen, you know, I don't

think I think he upfront was like, I'm not really going to go there.

379

I'm not really going to tell these stories or something.

380

much that.

381

think that he had, he couldn't imagine what could, Billy is just that kind of

self-deprecating person where he's like, how could my life be this interesting?

382

Who would want to hear me talk about this again?

383

I've talked about all this stuff.

384

We've already done this.

385

Everything's in my music.

386

You know, we don't need to do this.

387

But I think that what happened was that first of all, Susan was very, very clever.

388

She, she came into the interviews with the things that they had in common.

389

She first explored

390

kind of his childhood and his um family backstory um in Nazi Germany, which we go into in

episode two of the documentary.

391

And she explored that with him and he began to really sort of open up and say, wow, you're

really interested in this, this is great.

392

And he began to um almost scratch his own memory about things and begin to think about how

they related to his current life in a way that I don't think he necessarily had before.

393

Or certainly had an on camera.

394

And em then the second interview, I think, em talking all about classical music and how

his roots were in classical music.

395

There's a uh tremendous story in the film that if you've seen it, you know about how he uh

really had a difficult relationship with his father.

396

But when he was a child and his father was still at home, his father left the family when

Billy was about seven or eight.

397

em He was playing the Moonlight Sonata because Billy was already taking classical lessons.

398

started at

399

the age of four and his father was by the book.

400

You practiced, were, you did what Beethoven wrote and he began playing Moonlight Sonata

and he began improvising because that's what Billy would do because he would just hear

401

things and use his head and he would just start improvising and his father literally came

down and hit him so hard that it knocked him off of the piano.

402

Now, you know, these days you'd probably, you know, somebody would be calling, you know,

911 or whatever and they'd be arresting the father.

403

Look, it was a different time, but

404

The point is that, you know, he had this early, early, deep, deep connection to classical

music.

405

That was his foundations.

406

And Susan Lacey has a tremendous knowledge base about classical music and they connected

on that.

407

So that was, I believe that was the second interview.

408

I'm not sure I'm going to remember the sequence exactly, but the point is I think after

those first two interviews, I think at one point, Billy said to Susan, boy, you go deep.

409

And she said, yes, we do.

410

And you do too.

411

you have to go deep too if we're going to make the type of film that we want to make here.

412

And I think that clicked a little bit with him realizing that, you know, this wasn't going

to be a surface, you know, leitmotif kind of situation.

413

We were really going to try to explore.

414

Susan's goal and my goal as coming under, Susan's my mentor.

415

I'll say that.

416

And she's been incredibly generous with me and all the way back to the Joni Mitchell film.

417

sharing ideas and connecting um artistically together.

418

uh We felt early on that it was just so important to get to the emotional heart of this

person because this is a really famous person, almost maybe the most famous person we've

419

ever made a film about.

420

And so in the Zeitgeist and so people have ideas and preconceived notions.

421

girl, know, just the way you are, you know, this, hits, they know him.

422

They know, we didn't start the fire.

423

Oh, that guy, he's a pop Smith, you know, and he knows how to do that.

424

And we wanted to really try to bust that up and try to make people understand that this is

a really deep complex man.

425

And yes, you might know these certain hits, but when you get into the deep catalog and you

really start understanding where all this music came from, you have a whole new lens on

426

it.

427

Well, and I think it shows you why his music is so enduring.

428

And I mean, why my children, I have four boys all over the spectrum from 35 to 23, they

all know his music.

429

So, you know, I'm giving away my age, but I'm 58, my husband's 54, 55.

430

And, you I have kids all the way down to, you 23 and everyone knows his music.

431

Well, and everyone can relate and know different songs.

432

And I think it's because

433

of that exact reason, his life is in his stories and um it's what makes it so interesting

and everlasting, I think.

434

you're bringing up is that his music is very intergenerational.

435

I think what's really interesting for me, I'm not too far from your age, and uh people

have different touch points with Billy Joel.

436

You know, the first album they heard, or maybe they grew up listening to Movin' Out and,

you know, The Stranger and 52nd Street, or maybe they came in at Innocent Man, you know,

437

and they know, you know, Uptown Girl, and they know Tell Her About It, and they know the

music videos.

438

you know, or maybe they came in at Allentown, you know, or maybe they came in at We Didn't

Start the Fire, which was the 80s and, you know, a whole different, you know, period of

439

time.

440

So I think one thing that's interesting is that, you know, people in terms of the

soundtrack of Our Lives or Our Generation, it's multiple generations because he was an

441

artist over so many decades.

442

And I think that is one of the reasons that for some people, I think, you know, it was a

revelation hearing about the stranger in the documentary because they only knew

443

Yeah.

444

that he had this like groundbreaking, know, breakthrough album in 1977.

445

that is another reason that I think that the film was a touch point with so many people

because they really enjoyed sort of, it's like, oh, I get it.

446

Now I know why my parents love Billy Joel so much, you know, or, you know, now I

understand why my sister, you know, went crazy for, you know, we didn't start the right,

447

whatever it is.

448

So, and that's a lot of fun.

449

And I think that, you know,

450

most everybody knows at least something about Billy Joel.

451

He's a household name.

452

But like I said, it was very important to us that you understand that this is a very

serious musician.

453

This is somebody who, you know, not just a serious musician, but an intellectual guy, like

a really deep guy.

454

used to tell my husband, because I did know music.

455

I grew up singing and I grew up playing the piano a little bit.

456

And I didn't know any things about his background musically.

457

Because, you know, when we grew up, all we really had were the back of the albums or what

we read in the tape jacket.

458

didn't have MTV until 82.

459

And we didn't really we didn't watch these interviews.

460

We had some Rolling Stone, but

461

Who read that really?

462

We didn't really know a lot about these artists or their backgrounds and they weren't very

open.

463

And you were lucky if you went to the big um concerts and things like that.

464

So I lived in a small town in Mississippi or was in a boarding school in New York.

465

I didn't have those opportunities.

466

So I didn't really know.

467

But what I did know was like, this guy's a genius.

468

Like I could tell there was something like behind.

469

all of his music because he just wove things in there that I could tell.

470

And I could hear what he was doing with his music.

471

I didn't understand it, but I knew it was more than what I saw on the surface.

472

And I could, when I listened to it, I would kind of try to point it out to the people

around me.

473

Like, my gosh, you realize what he just did.

474

But what your movie did was it showed me.

475

what it was.

476

It showed me exactly why he was such a genius.

477

And that's what I loved about it.

478

I was like, Oh my goodness, now I know.

479

No, it really, I think we did do a good job illuminating certain, you know, aspects of

what, you know, the foundational kind of aspects of what makes, what inspired him.

480

And he had such a breadth of influences.

481

I think that's the other thing that's very interesting as a musician, a tremendous

breadth.

482

And we just talked about his, you know, foundational classical training and how his

classical music fed into his deep sense of melody.

483

And we go into that quite a bit in episode two.

484

um His producer on River of Dreams makes some really wonderful, Danny Korchmeyer, makes

some really wonderful observations about how he integrated classical music into pop music,

485

which when he points out Uptown Girl could have been a Mozart piece, he plays it.

486

And you're like, oh

487

I guess it could be, you you're like, you know, don't really think about that, but that's

how his brain works.

488

You know, he's very melodic.

489

He's driven by, you know, melodic inspirations.

490

That is what, and he says, I think at one point in the film, he says, you know, the music

always comes first and there's always a message in music.

491

And it's, you know, I'm trying to pull out, you know, it's like he's going from the gut,

you know, and spilling these emotions out into music.

492

And then he sort of has to,

493

almost backtrack and pull out, well, what is this about and what am I talking about here?

494

And if you look, we use a lot of the lyric books in the film and you get to see sort of...

495

that was such genius.

496

I just loved it.

497

Like the way that you guys used extra things to help tell the story in the lyric book was

was one of them.

498

out to Mighty Oak who did our graphics.

499

They did a beautiful job.

500

um know, the documentary is a very collaborative art.

501

You know that.

502

um Our editors, um you know, we had three editors.

503

started off with the editor that Susan has worked before, Chris Liam.

504

And then we added two other editors because it was just such a vast story.

505

um One is James Pilat.

506

He actually works on staff at HBO.

507

And then Stephen Ross.

508

who did, who cut the Warhol series.

509

don't know if you saw it on Netflix.

510

It's excellent if you ever get a chance to watch the whole thing.

511

He's a really talented.

512

So the point is that we had, we had wonderful collaborators and Mighty Oak, um you know,

did the graphics.

513

They came in quite late in the process, but they did the graphics, the lyrics and, um you

know, our fellow producer,

514

thing that I loved how you wove in, you know, the photos of his older photos, those were

just fantastic.

515

And I loved how you had the handwriting come off of the lyric books too, like just so

creative.

516

Yes.

517

listen, I think that some people, you know the lyrics, but in that moment, it's sort of

important to focus on the one thing I can think of, like one example I can think of that

518

people, a song people really don't know is Where's the Orchestra, which was the last song

on the nylon curtain.

519

And it's a song of really, know, disillusionment and kind of, um you know, existential

kind of angst.

520

And so we thought it was important to show the lyrics there because people don't know that

song.

521

So when you look at it and you look at the lyrics, you're like, ooh, that's pretty dark.

522

You know, that's interesting.

523

You know, and then he talks a little bit about it.

524

But in those cases, when you're talking about something very specific, it's sort of

helpful to sort of see the lyrics when he and Elizabeth are falling in love.

525

And you realize that these songs are about her and the lyrics are so heartfelt.

526

How many of those songs are connected to her?

527

I was stunned.

528

I was just stunned.

529

That was what was so revelatory to me.

530

A, that she existed, but B, how many of those songs were connected to their early years

together?

531

Well, it's sort of, it's a little bit of a catalog of their relationship actually.

532

mean, she's got a way, which in my book, and you know, it is one of my favorite songs

because we started to talk about this earlier.

533

I'm not sure we ever got there, but I really rediscovered Cold Spring Harbor on this film.

534

And I think a lot of people did because it's kind of an unknown, you know, it was before

he signed to Columbia Records, before Piano Man.

535

And it was sort of in the singer songwriter tradition, you know, the...

536

the sort of sparse singer songwriter tradition confessional.

537

And he was pouring his heart out into these songs because he was heartbroken um over he

and Elizabeth breaking up.

538

um And if you haven't seen the film, I'll just quickly briefly, he was in love with his

bandmate's wife and the two of them got together and it was heartbreaking for all of them.

539

I mean, it broke up their relationship, he and John's friendship, and then he and

Elizabeth broke up for a time.

540

And at that time he was very depressed.

541

And eventually he realized, I can use these emotions and I can channel these emotions into

music and into lyrics.

542

And that is what he did.

543

So that is why for those early songs, we felt it was very important to illustrate the

lyrics because he's talking about how he was channeling his emotions and putting them into

544

songs and into lyrics.

545

And I think, you know, one of his first uh songs, You Can Make Me Free, written before he

and Elizabeth broke up was really about them falling in love.

546

And then later after they broke up, he was pining for her and he wrote, She's Got Away.

547

And I mean, to me, it's a very, it's one of his first really true harbingers of kind of

the ballads to come.

548

She's Got Away is just such a beautifully constructed song.

549

It has incredible bridge.

550

um You know, his voice is so pure on it.

551

And so that's one of my favorites, I would say.

552

I have several, but you know, that was one that I feel like I rediscovered and I think a

lot of people did, including some outtakes that have never been heard we used throughout

553

the film.

554

I know that was just such genius.

555

mean, are you still there?

556

Okay, um it froze for just a minute.

557

So we're gonna give it a second to, it's okay.

558

No, it's usually when it freezes, I'm gonna mark it.

559

We're gonna edit out that space and we'll start again.

560

um

561

So we were talking about lyrics, were talking about Cold Spring Harbor.

562

were talking about your edit and just how you built this story.

563

um And that was what I think is so amazing to me.

564

um It's another wonderful thing that you guys do, which is build the story.

565

And the story is so important in any documentary and taking something this vast and

figuring out, you know, we were talking about the interviews and I don't, you know, we

566

never really

567

finished talking about how you get behind the mystery of this man.

568

We talked a little bit about that.

569

Yeah, it is.

570

by saying that Susan used a lot of common ground with Billy, I think, to break the ice and

to get to know him in a place where she felt very comfortable because this is an area of

571

expertise for her and also a place that they had commonality.

572

Her mother was a concert pianist and also she had had uh her families from Germany as

well.

573

So they had a lot of so.

574

They bonded over those things and were able to connect just as human beings.

575

they both on Long Island?

576

Well, yes, Susan has a house in Sac Harbor.

577

That's where she lives now.

578

And so does Billy.

579

He has a house in Sac Harbor too.

580

Although, right.

581

think he's spending a lot of time in Florida, especially during his recovery.

582

But, um, and then I think what you try to do is you try to sort of take baby steps, you

know, you're not going to talk about the most difficult things first, you know, you need

583

to kind of do building blocks, you know, you need to do building blocks of story.

584

You need to do building blocks of emotional things.

585

You need to do building blocks, talking about music.

586

and so that you're building some trust.

587

And I think that at some point, I think I said to you, Susan said, uh to Billy said to her

after one of the interviews, wow, you really go deep.

588

And she said, well, you're gonna have to go deep too if we're gonna make the kind of film

that we're setting out to make here.

589

And I think that feeling that you're on the same side with your artist, that your artist

and you are on the same page or on the same team.

590

m in terms of, you know, how, and by the way, the other thing about these types of films

is that if the artist isn't willing to go there, um you know, people aren't gonna take the

591

movie seriously.

592

They're just not, you know?

593

the artist that?

594

that's one thing I've been wondering.

595

Like, did he understand?

596

Okay.

597

I mean, there had to be a mental process with him.

598

okay, I understand the kind of movies they make and am I buying into this?

599

Am I really going to go there?

600

I mean, did you have a conversation like that with him?

601

Like, look, if you want this to be good, I mean, how did that go?

602

Well, I guess I would say eh Steve um said to Billy early on, Steve Cohen, who is an

executive producer on the film and is a longtime collaborative, Billy Jolls, and is his

603

creative director.

604

said to Billy, if you sign up for this movie, you have to know that you do not have

control over this.

605

I mean, I think the Billy Joel organization is very used to controlling the narrative.

606

They control their shows.

607

They control their lighting.

608

They control their set list.

609

They control what cities they go to.

610

They control the messaging out there.

611

And what I think Steve had to impress upon Billy is that this is an independent film.

612

You don't have editorial control here and you are not going to have control over this

story.

613

So before we say yes, you know, let's make sure that you're comfortable with that.

614

And to Billy's credit, um early on when she met with him, she said to him, I want to know

from you, Billy, um are there areas of sensitivity?

615

Not that she was going to stay away from them, but that she just wanted to know.

616

you know, so that I know what mine fields I'm stepping into or where you feel.

617

And he said to her, Susan, tell the truth.

618

The best thing you can do is just tell the truth.

619

And that was our guiding light.

620

which was tell the truth.

621

And the other guiding light for us as filmmakers was it's about the artistry.

622

And it's about what the reason we make this film is because of the music that people have

connected with and people have um felt so deeply.

623

So that's the reason we're making the movie.

624

So everything, all roads need to lead back to their artistry and to the music.

625

And if it doesn't contribute to that, we're not gonna include it.

626

um

627

and I talked to your staff prior and I said, I wanted to make sure we were on the same

page and let you know, these are the things I'd like to talk about, but also I wanna make

628

sure I'm talking about what you want to.

629

And one of the things that you raised was I'd like to talk about how you made this film

independently without artist control.

630

Is that what you meant?

631

Absolutely.

632

um Billy had no, Billy, or his camp had no editorial control over this film.

633

That seems to me it would make it more scary for Billy like to open up even more, but

maybe not.

634

an interesting person because he's not, he's like, how could I be that interesting?

635

You know, he's not, he doesn't, I don't think he sees it from our point of view.

636

And that's kind of the charm of Billy.

637

And that's why we can all relate to him.

638

And we all have the imposter syndrome, right?

639

Where we're like, you know, like, ugh, I'm probably the worst at this that there is, you

know?

640

I mean, he's, he's always so, he's like, he thinks of himself as do the work, you know?

641

And if the work is solid, then the audience will follow and.

642

You know, we feel the same way about the movie.

643

We weren't thinking about how are we gonna please the fans?

644

How are we gonna please the, you know, the people who don't know anything about it?

645

We just told the story that we felt needed to be told.

646

And I think that that is really, um if I were to give advice to a filmmaker, I would say

follow your heart, follow your gut, you know?

647

Try not to listen to...

648

the noise, you know, because you have to have a vision, you know, for what you think is

important about a movie.

649

And Susan and I very early on were like, wow, we need to reveal the person that people

don't know.

650

People know this person, but they don't know this person, you know, who's underneath.

651

And that's the person that we want people to know and understand because

652

all their life of listening to Billy and hearing him and thinking, my God, I love this

song, I love this song.

653

There's a reason that he is who he is.

654

And it was almost like, it's kind of like one of those things, what do they say?

655

Like if you take a bunch of a lump of coal and you put a bunch of pressure on it, turns

into a diamond.

656

He's one of those guys who, he almost like overcame just insurmountable odds.

657

absolutely.

658

I mean, when you hear everything that he went through and that he did to himself, a lot of

times it was own self sabotage.

659

Like I just can't even imagine what he over and look what he is still overcoming to this

very day.

660

I mean, you know, even for him to do what he did through this movie while he was still

battling things.

661

um

662

It's remarkable to me and it goes to the character, the resiliency, the desire to, uh I

think, inspire others.

663

It was just remarkable.

664

You mentioned stick to the story, tell the story, tell the truth.

665

And that brings me back around to I wanted to talk about the story because the story is

critical to the success of anything.

666

don't...

667

We want to hear the story and if it's told well, it brings us in.

668

If it's not told well, we leave.

669

And that's what drew me in about and made me want to sit for five hours in the middle of

the night um was the way that you told it.

670

could not, I couldn't leave, um especially at the end of part one.

671

I just wanted to know more.

672

And a lot of that was the tactics that you used in terms of

673

um the different tools in your toolbox with them, you know, footage that I had never seen

before.

674

um

675

nuggets.

676

was a lot of golden nuggets in the film.

677

I mean, for people who don't know, they don't know, but for people who are fans and, but

even the home movies and the behind the scenes and the things like that, I mean, that

678

stuff is people love to see that.

679

it's because it's real and it's authentic and it's, you know, how someone lives and it's

unguarded.

680

And that's the stuff that really is revealing and makes these films universal and makes

these films, you know, have an effect on people when they can relate to the

681

who is the central character in the film.

682

That's the same in feature films as it is in documentaries, which is if you cannot relate

to your central character and they don't have some humanity to them that you can relate

683

to, you're not gonna stick with it no matter how fantastic the music is.

684

But I do wanna say before I forget, I wrote down in terms of story, the music as I've said

was our guiding.

685

Yes, true.

686

to move through the story.

687

And obviously we were very lucky because the music is so autobiographical.

688

So we were able to use it to, you know, weave through the story, story using the lyrics,

using, you know, hearing longer extended pieces of the music.

689

But the other thing I wanted to bring out for your audience is that um our soundtrack of

the film is entirely made up of Billy Joel music.

690

Winning.

691

to end.

692

is a soundtrack, I think they call it an audio companion, and it is available on iTunes

and everywhere.

693

It is called Enzo Ecos, and it is the extended versions of some of the unheard pieces that

we used in the film.

694

And I think people will really enjoy that.

695

It also has some snippets of dialogue in it, so you can kind of listen to it.

696

And that was Steve Cohen's brainchild.

697

He really wanted to have an audio companion, which was really cool.

698

But I think what's really important for your audience to know, because you may not know

this when watching the film, is that the film is 100 % Billy Joel music.

699

Instrumental, classical, and a few interpretations, which was Susan Lacy's brainchild,

which was that she wanted to take a few of his pieces of music and make some kind of

700

adaptations.

701

So for example, in the...

702

uh

703

In part two, in the ancestor section where we talk about his family and their time in

Germany before they fled, you know, the Nazis, uh we used the song Vienna.

704

And we had two composers, two guys that worked in, that actually work in Billy's band.

705

They did a couple of adaptations.

706

So you hear Vienna and a lot of different, you hear an orchestral version.

707

You hear a version that's solo violin.

708

You hear a version of the stranger with solo violin.

709

So that helps to...

710

become the soundtrack of the film.

711

But I think what's important about that, and we have over 110 Billy Joel songs in the

film.

712

His catalog has about 121 songs in it.

713

We used 110 of them.

714

So it was really important to us to weave, just chalk a block with Billy music, Billy

music, Billy music.

715

And the reason we were able to do that, this is something we were talking about earlier,

is the breadth of his influences.

716

Because you have this tremendous classical music.

717

You have this tremendous instrumental music.

718

Take for example, Street Life Serenade that we were talking about earlier.

719

Sounds like a Broadway song.

720

Sounds like a Broadway tune.

721

You wouldn't know.

722

mean, here's a rock and roller, but no, here's this Billy the Kid.

723

It's epic.

724

It's cinematic.

725

It lends depth and grace and emotionality.

726

you know, to these different sections of the film where we're really plumbing emotions of

this person and truly trying to understand his battles, battles with alcoholism, his

727

battles with trying to come to terms with his parents, his relationships with, with his,

um you know, his relationships with women.

728

um And, you know, speaking of his relationship with women, what we found really uncanny is

that he's had this incredible uh history of all these very strong women in his life.

729

If you think about it, he's one of the most macho.

730

Yeah.

731

every day, Billy Joel, you but the truth is his foundation has been women.

732

His mother, you know, Ros Joel, who he wrote Rosalind Isabel, who is, you know, was his

champion, you know, from the beginning.

733

And yes, she was a complex and troubled woman and Billy had tremendous sympathy for her.

734

Although I'm sure it wasn't easy to live with at the time he was growing up, but you know,

Christie Brinkley, Elizabeth Webber, um you know, his current wife.

735

Yes.

736

ah These are foundational to who he is and who he has become.

737

And he trusted two women to make his film, to make his story, to his story.

738

say, I have read so much about you and Susan.

739

And the more I read and the more I get to know you, I am just stunned and blown away.

740

So talk about, you know, not strong, accomplished, brilliant women.

741

Yes, he chose them.

742

And it's just so interesting.

743

You're right.

744

He he does.

745

And it has to go back to the fact that his mother did raise him and his sister almost

solely on their own.

746

And what I thought was interesting going back to story is that you didn't tell the story

linear, linearly.

747

that what I'm looking for?

748

I thought I really liked that.

749

I liked it that you did not do that.

750

Although at one point I was thinking, now, wait a minute.

751

We haven't heard really about the dad.

752

And guess what?

753

You told this story.

754

You started in on his dad.

755

And I was like, right in time.

756

all, wanted to say that Susan had a very, it's hard to tell, not tell these stories,

Linney or Lee.

757

It is hard to do that.

758

You have to find the touch points and the places to jump back.

759

And Susan had a vision early on that she, two really important things, she wanted to go

back to childhood when he returned to New York.

760

um from California to form his New York band.

761

That was the juncture at which we talked about his childhood.

762

It was during the turnstiles era and that was really important to her.

763

And the other really important nonlinear piece was um when he wore the yellow star on

stage in right after Charlottesville.

764

And at that point he jumps back to, am a Jew and I will always be a Jew.

765

And then he jumps back to telling the backstory about his family journey.

766

too when, you know, he was older too when he reconnected with his dad and, you know, there

was, you know, kind of more understanding almost.

767

So here we are learning.

768

it was still really heartbreaking for him though, even though I don't think he dealt with

that for a long time.

769

And I think, you know, if you, in the film, we do try to paint the portrait of his current

relationship with his half brother, Alexander Joel, who's a quite accomplished opera

770

conductor uh in Europe and in Vienna is where he lives.

771

um But I think that, you know, there are pain points there.

772

um And I think we tried to understand how that relationship affected his music.

773

And I think that was where what we were going for, not just the cataloging of the pain and

whatever, but how that affected his music.

774

And I think he, believe he, I'm gonna paraphrase, but I think he sent a note to Susan

after the film was finished.

775

And he said, um

776

Thank you for so beautifully connecting the dots of my life and for making me understand

why I did what I did.

777

my goodness, I was going to ask you how he responded.

778

How beautiful is that?

779

He didn't see it till it was finished.

780

And I think Susan was blown away.

781

We were all blown away.

782

I think that it was his relationship with his father while he always knew it was

important.

783

And I think his, says it at one point, you when my father died, I just, you know, I kind

of freaked out, you know, cause I was like, Hey, I'm never going to have that relationship

784

with my father.

785

And, you know, I think it dawned on him like that.

786

that's gonna be water under the bridge.

787

And I think that was quite a painful, I had a very similar uh situation with my own

father.

788

He had dementia and he died and we had a difficult relationship.

789

And when someone like that passes, you realize like, wow, like this is it.

790

We just have to bury that because we're never gonna work it out.

791

And I think that was the realization he had.

792

And I think that he had some pain point there.

793

ah But his current wife, I'm going to give her a lot of credit.

794

She's an incredibly strong person, an incredibly strong support of Bill.

795

And as he says in the film, oh, you like me for me.

796

You weren't impressed with the music.

797

Maybe she just likes me.

798

You know, and I loved that because it's like, you know what, people like Billy have their

guard up because it's like, ah know, you think I'm just a guy who's, you know, full of,

799

you know, top 40 hits.

800

You know, you don't care about who the person is under that, but

801

but Alexis, you know, she wanted to go there.

802

And so I think that is what the foundation is of their relationship.

803

So it makes it quite different than the others.

804

And she was very there for him when he went through that, when he went through the pain of

his father passing.

805

So I'm going on too long.

806

I am so sorry.

807

Please.

808

is just so beautiful.

809

I mean, you've really answered a lot of questions um that I was going to ask anyway, um

and really told me, you know, what we needed to know about the storytelling or about how

810

to answer questions.

811

What we haven't gotten to is I wanted to know more about you.

812

And I don't know if you have time for a few more questions.

813

have, you know, maybe another five minutes and so I can try.

814

We'll have you come back another time.

815

And I'm gonna ask you real quick.

816

um We have a special segment on my show called DocuVu Deja Vu.

817

I don't know if they told you about this, but this is where we ask our guests to come with

a documentary that they would like to recommend.

818

So if you um have a second to think about that, I'm gonna introduce this segment.

819

All right, everybody.

820

Now it's time for everybody's favorite segment, DocuVu Deja Vu.

821

All right, so here we are in our favorite segment.

822

Do you have a documentary that you've seen recently or that's your favorite documentary or

that inspired you a long time ago that you wanna share with us?

823

I feel really put on the spot.

824

The only one that is okay, the only one that's coming to mind right at this second was

that documentary I recommended earlier, the Warhol documentary.

825

uh Well,

826

The one thing that I really liked about it was that it was another movie that really

reveals a person and tries to kind of understand the motivations and the...

827

you know, uh the inner workings of an artist.

828

And Warhol was a very complicated, very complicated person, not transparent.

829

Whereas Billy Joel, you know, Warhol certainly lived his life in the public eye as well,

but he was always a character.

830

And, you know, so it was very interesting to see.

831

how the filmmakers were able to get beneath the surface and really understand.

832

He created an entire cultural revolution in his moment in time.

833

And to understand where the impetus for that came from was just, was really fascinating.

834

And I liked the fact, I think it was on Netflix, yikes, and it was four parts and each

part was maybe about an hour.

835

And I kind of liked that format because each sort of, each chapter kind of builds on the

last chapter.

836

uh

837

If I had spent some time thinking more about it, I probably could come up with something

else.

838

No, it's a great one.

839

We'll go with that one.

840

Also everybody, didn't get a chance to read Jessica's bio, but you know what?

841

You can go on the website for her uh production company and why don't you give us the

website address so that people can go and visit.

842

sure, or pentamentoprods.com.

843

So pentamentoprods.com.

844

And you'll find all of our latest news, what we're working on, what the reviews, past

projects.

845

We have a strong body of work.

846

And then Susan has a strong body of work prior to even starting Pentamento Productions,

which we also have a lot of information about.

847

But please come and check us out.

848

We also have Instagram.

849

Pentamendor Productions.

850

So you can always follow us on Instagram so that you can see what we're up to.

851

We try to keep it up to date, but you know, as filmmakers, you have so much to do.

852

um know, managing the social media is, you know, maybe above my pay grade, but we're

trying.

853

uh And thank you so much, Christian, for having us on, having me on, and I hope you get a

chance to talk to Susan in the future.

854

We will work on it.

855

Thank you so much for coming and everybody.

856

Thank you so much for listening.

857

This has been documentary first where we believe everybody has a story to tell and you can

be the one to tell it.

858

Bye everybody.

859

Are we done?