Episode #43: Rewiring the Dyslexic Brain: How Neuroplasticity Can Transform Reading Struggles with Dr. Rebecca Troy

Guest: Dr. Rebecca Troy, EdD

Educational neuroscientist, dyslexia expert, and national board certified teacher

Episode Summary:

Dyslexia affects millions of children and adults worldwide, but modern neuroscience reveals something hopeful: the brain is remarkably plastic and capable of reorganizing itself when given the right training. In this episode, Dr. Rebecca Troy shares over 20 years of expertise helping struggling readers through neuroplasticity-based interventions.

Timestamp Highlights:

1. 0:10
2. Introduction to the episode
3. 2:16
4. Dr. Troy's personal story and background
5. 2:30
6. Family history with dyslexia
7. 4:01
8. Overview of Dr. Troy's program for parents
9. 4:19
10. Redefining dyslexia: Not a permanent deficit
11. 7:03
12. The power of daily 10-15 minute practice at home
13. 8:15
14. Shortcomings in traditional reading instruction
15. 12:42
16. Early warning signs for parents (ages 3-5)
17. 15:08
18. How neuroplasticity rewires the dyslexic brain
19. 17:35
20. The emotional impact of reading struggles
21. 23:55
22. Next steps for concerned parents
23. 25:42
24. Understanding phonemic awareness
25. 34:39
26. Final message of hope for struggling readers

Key Topics Discussed:

1. What dyslexia really is: an underdevelopment in brain connectivity, not a permanent deficit
2. How neuroplasticity research shows the brain can rewire itself to read like typical readers
3. Early warning signs parents should watch for (ages 3-5)
4. Why phonemic awareness is the foundation for reading success
5. The critical importance of early identification and intervention
6. How daily 10-15 minute structured practice at home can transform outcomes
7. The emotional impact of unrecognized reading struggles
8. Dyslexia's common overlap with ADHD (40% of cases) and other conditions
9. Hidden strengths in dyslexic brains: spatial reasoning, creativity, and entrepreneurship
10. Why the traditional education system needs to shift its approach

Key Takeaways:

1. Dyslexia is not permanent
2. Brain imaging studies show that with targeted training, struggling readers can develop the same neural pathways as typical readers
3. Parent-led intervention works
4. Daily practice at home is more effective than weekly clinical sessions due to increased repetition and lower stress
5. Early intervention is critical
6. Screening at ages 3-5 can prevent years of academic struggle and emotional trauma
7. The crawl-walk-run approach
8. Executive function and phonemic awareness must be developed before phonics-based reading instruction

Resources Mentioned:

1. Dr. Troy's dyslexia discovery workshops (monthly screenings)
2. PTO Reconnect Therapy program
3. Visualize - New company using playcraft to develop spatial reasoning and creativity strengths in dyslexic children (launching at South by Southwest)
4. Book mentioned: "Teach Your Child to Read in 100 Easy Lessons"

Guest Bio:

Dr. Rebecca Troy is an educational neuroscientist with a doctorate in education and a neuroscience research focus on reading disabilities. As a national board certified teacher in early and middle literacy, she's spent over 20 years developing practical, neuroplasticity-based interventions that help struggling readers. Her work has been featured in Psychology Today, Women's Journal, and Voyage New York. Dr. Troy is passionate about equipping parents with tools to support children with learning differences and is currently involved in launching Visualize, a company focused on developing dyslexic strengths through play.

Connect with Dr. Rebecca Troy:

https://www.drrebeccatroy.com

About This Podcast:

The Neurostimulation Podcast explores the science of the brain, innovative treatments, and practical tools to help people unlock their cognitive and emotional potential. Hosted by Dr. Michael Passmore, psychiatrist and clinical associate professor in the Department of Psychiatry at the University of British Columbia.

Hello and welcome back to the Neurostimulation Podcast.

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I'm Dr.

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Michael Passmore, psychiatrist and

clinical associate professor in the

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Department of Psychiatry at the University

of British Columbia in Vancouver, Canada.

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On this show, we explore the science

of the brain, innovative treatments and

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practical tools that can help people

unlock cognitive and emotional potential.

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Today we're diving into a

topic that affects millions of

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children and adults worldwide.

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Dyslexia.

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Reading is one of the most

complex cognitive skills that

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the human brain performs.

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It requires precise coordination

between language processing,

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auditory perception, working

memory, and visual decoding systems.

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For individuals with dyslexia,

those neural systems process

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language differently.

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But here's the exciting part.

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Modern neuroscience has shown us that the

brain is remarkably plastic; capable of

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reorganizing itself and developing new

pathways when given the right training.

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My guest today is Dr.

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Rebecca Troy, an educational

neuroscientist and dyslexia expert

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with more than 20 years of experience

helping struggling readers.

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She's a Doctor of education, a

neuroscience researcher focused

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on reading disabilities and a

national board certified teacher

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in early and middle literacy.

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Her work focuses on applying

neuroplasticity based interventions

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that help the brain hear and respond

to language differently, often

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producing dramatic improvements in

reading and learning confidence.

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Dr.

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Troy has been featured in numerous

publications, including Psychology Today,

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Women's Journal, and Voyage New York,

and she's passionate about equipping

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parents with practical tools to support

children with learning differences.

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Rebecca, welcome to the podcast.

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So glad that you're here and I'm really

looking forward to our conversation.

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Rebecca: Thank you.

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I appreciate being here.

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Mike: So before we dive into dyslexia

itself, maybe you could help us

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to understand a bit about your

background, your personal story, and

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um, yeah, just if you could introduce

yourself and help us to get to know

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you a bit, that would be great.

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Rebecca: Absolutely.

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So, dyslexia is very

prevalent in my family.

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And at the time, back in the eighties

we didn't really know that was a thing.

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So both of my parents, my brother,

I was actually the only one

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in my family not to have it.

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Fast forward, I'm in

education 20 some years.

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I am working with reading specialists,

but I was at the high school level

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seeing a lot of students come into the

classroom without the ability to read,

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and it was assumed that at that level

they had already known how to do that,

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and so it was something very troubling

to me, something very intriguing for me.

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So then when I went to do some

further studies, I really wanted

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to deeply understand how the

brain was doing that and why.

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And so that definitely led me down the

path of learning more about neurology and

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how that impacts the brain and reading

and dyslexia and now I'm here with two

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dyslexic children myself, leading a

program for parents, helping them to go

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through what we call PTO reconnect therapy

to actually reconnect those regions

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of the brain that are underdeveloped.

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So it's been a work that started

in my very, very early years

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that I didn't know at the time

that that was gonna be my work.

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But gosh, it's been super powerful.

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Mike: Yeah, thanks for explaining that.

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And I think right off the bat, I

really wanna highlight your program,

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your content, and we're gonna put

links in the show notes to that.

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So I would really encourage viewers

and listeners to check out those links.

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And, yeah, really, reach out to Dr.

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Troy to find out more about her program.

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But perhaps you can just right

off the bat, start by helping us

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understand more about exactly what

your program offers for parents and

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children and adults as well, who may be

struggling with these kinds of issues.

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Rebecca: Yeah, and I think one of the

foundational things that I really want

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to impress upon anybody listening is

that the definition of dyslexia, even

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by researchers and clinicians, has

got some fundamental challenges to it.

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So when we think about it, often

it's described as something

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permanent or it's gonna be

something that's with you for life.

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But what we know about dyslexia is that

it is just a disconnect in how the brain

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is connecting these certain regions.

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And so we can get really specific, but

there's the parieto-temporal lobe and

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the occipital lobe and some of these

areas that should have connectivity.

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If we look at the brain of a typical

reader, these areas are very active.

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But when we look at a reader with

dyslexia, they're just underdeveloped.

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And I say just because when we know

about neuroplasticity, and we know

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how the brain can change over a

lifetime, whether you are an adult or

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a young child with a whole bunch of

plasticity, those conditions can change.

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And so I think it's really important

to add that conversation for people to

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understand that dyslexia is really an

underdevelopment in these areas of the

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brain, and when you develop it, you can

come out with totally different outcomes.

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And so that's really what we are about

is to help families to take those

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parieto-temporal and occipital areas of

the brain and reconnect them, so that

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reading, so that letter sound formation,

so that a lot of the myelination has

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the ability to happen through that

daily repetitive practice that we would

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do at the hand of a family at home.

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Mm-hmm.

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Mike: Yeah.

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It's so interesting because it

makes me think that, The ability to

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read is a, obviously a very recent

development in terms of evolution.

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So it strikes me that the brain being

so fantastically plastic, it's kind

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of probably just figured out a way to

recruit other areas that were around

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and just sort of put them together

in terms of allowing people to read.

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Right.

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So in some ways not entirely surprising

that sometimes that doesn't kind

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of jive as well as it, it might.

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Right.

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Right.

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Mm-hmm.

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Yeah.

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Rebecca: And there's an incredible genetic

component, so do think that 80% of the

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cases of dyslexia are heritable from,

they found various genes that play a role

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early in, in the prenatal development.

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Mm-hmm.

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But there's also, environmental

factors that can play a role as well.

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And so, regardless of where it came from,

the learning still has the capacity to

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change with the right structured support.

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Mike: Mm-hmm.

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So what might that

structured support look like?

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I'm just curious about what, your, your,

your program might, involve in terms

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of helping to, I suppose, identify,

characterize the challenge, but then also

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help people overcome those challenges.

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Rebecca: For sure.

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So not surprisingly, a daily 10 to 15

minute repetitive, something that the

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brain has the opportunity to see over

and over again over a period of four

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months really, really has a significant

impact in moving things along quickly.

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And so what we do is we've actually

given that step-by-step structured

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multisensory system to a parent to

implement in the home environment.

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And so it's behavioral entirely,

but when you are giving the family

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the opportunity to reduce the

stress, you're doing that at home.

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I'm not, in an.

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In an office with a practitioner, I'm able

to receive learning in a different way.

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And then obviously the person who is

delivering that is making especially

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sure that everything is followed to a T

because this is their child that we're

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talking about, and they are very invested

in making sure that those outcomes

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are exactly what they would expect.

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Mike: Mm-hmm.

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Yeah, just curious what, what some

of your thoughts are about, Yeah,

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because I mean, I think there's

kind of an assumption that, reading,

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writing, and arithmetic right?

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Sort of the foundations of

primary school curricula,

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so I was just curious if you had

thoughts about what might be some of

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the shortcomings or how could reading

perhaps be taught in a better way?

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I think I'm just curious about in

terms of the pedagogy, what might be

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some of your thoughts around that?

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Rebecca: Yeah, so it's actually quite

interesting and there's a movement

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and I would say there is significant

improvement on that, but there are still

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curricula in the United States that

teach what's called the three cueing

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method and so I'm literally taught

to look at the pictures and guess.

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And so what we know about how the brain

learns and how letters and sounds form

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and how the brain engages with those

things is that if I'm explicitly taught

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how letters and sounds go together, then I

can access 40,000 words as opposed to the

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ones that I've been taught to memorize,

which might be a couple of hundred.

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So I think, there is a lot of work to do

in the curriculum and how we're teaching

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that, but I also think there's just

such an opportunity to cue in on what we

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know about development at age 3, 4, 5.

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If we're already seeing some of the

signs and symptoms, and practitioners and

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educators and parents are all trained on

what to look for in those developmental

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phases, we have an incredible opportunity

to start intervening neurologically at

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that point, and giving a foundation that

will be essential for future reading,

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writing, spelling, even math development.

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But I think it's really getting

intentional and getting the right tools

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in the hands of those who need it.

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Mike: Yeah, I've heard of the

book and I actually try this a

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little bit with, my son, which

it resonated quite well with him.

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The book is called Teach Your

Child to Read in 100 Easy Lessons.

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Rebecca: Yes.

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Mike: And, yeah, so that's a,

it seems like it's an ambitious

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book, but I think it's doable.

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Right.

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What are some of your thoughts

about that kind of thing?

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I guess that's the phonics

based learning approach.

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Is that correct?

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Rebecca: Yeah, and I think that there's,

there's significant merit to what that

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curriculum and others have done, I

do think that there is a neurological

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underpinning that happens before that.

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Mm-hmm.

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So if we were to think about it,

like crawl, walk, run, that would be,

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in my opinion, something that would

be, we're gonna teach you to walk.

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But there's actually a crawling that

happens before that to deal with

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executive functioning and how the

brain is able to hold information and

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whether or not it's even using the

right areas, that I think is critical

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development for eventual success

in the running and sprinting arena.

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If that, if that analogy makes sense.

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Mike: Absolutely.

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Yeah, that's very, very helpful because

I think that probably would help a

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lot of parents who, for instance, get

a book like that, but it might not be

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going so well, understand that maybe

there's some other foundational things

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that have to be cultivated first of all.

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Rebecca: Yes.

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Yep.

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And think.

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It can be easy as a parent to blame

yourself or even as an educator, because,

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gosh, tried this, mentioned these lessons.

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We've worked on these words multiple

times, hundreds of times, and yet, my

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child is able to read it on this line.

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Two lines later, they see the same word

and they can't recognize it at all.

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What's wrong?

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Mm-hmm.

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And it's really coming back to, there's

an underdevelopment in that neurological

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sequencing between letters and sounds.

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And so when we address that,

then those things become easy.

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But until we do, there's always

this pervasive struggle that if we

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developmentally went through the

crawl phase, if you will, it could

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make a significant difference.

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Mike: Right, right.

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Yeah.

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But so I guess the attention, as you

say, executive function and attentional

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problems that might represent more of the

crawling stage, would that be accurate?

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Rebecca: Yeah.

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And so think with dyslexia, having

something else is more of the

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expectation, not the exception.

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So 40% of cases of dyslexia

also have co-occurring ADHD.

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There may also be dysgraphia.

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There could also be, auditory processing

or visual processing deficits, things that

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would co-occur, making it exceptionally

more difficult for the child.

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And so, Yeah.

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I think addressing those and addressing

those before we would get to the walk and

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run stages makes, makes a big difference.

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Absolutely.

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Mike: Mm-hmm.

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So I guess maybe for parents who might be

worrying or at least thinking about their

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child's reading development, but they're

not quite sure, how to differentiate what

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might be still in the normal range versus

something perhaps more concerning in

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terms of that age appropriate development,

what might be some early warning signs

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that parents might be looking out for?

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Rebecca: Yeah, that's

such a great question.

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There are some milestones that a child

at age 3, 4, 5 would have something

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as simple as: Hey, the word is cat.

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Can you gimme a couple words

that would rhyme with cat?

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And oftentimes kids with dyslexia might

say, kitty, or they might say, something

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else that clearly doesn't rhyme with cat.

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The reason that that happens is

because I am not activating the

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letter sound areas of my brain.

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I'm not really able to put that together

with automatic retrieval, and so what

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I am producing for you, whether it's

the alphabet or if I'm asked to rhyme

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things or even just learning language

itself, may have a developmental delay.

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Those would be things that would

put my curiosity spikes up to say,

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let me, let me pay more attention to

this, let me ask a few more questions

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about that and just get curious, I

think is really powerful as a parent.

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Mike: Yeah, it makes me think of that,

that makes perfect sense because of

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how incredibly important the rhyming

is in those children's books, the Dr.

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Seuss type books and, and how yeah.

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Just to try and cultivate that.

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so I suppose, sharing time, reading

with children and, investing that kind

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of effort probably goes a long way.

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yeah.

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For any, for any child, obviously.

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Yeah.

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Rebecca: It does.

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And there are other signs that

I think come up quite often.

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So things like reversals where

a seven would be backwards or a

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five or letters, B's and D's, P's

and Q's, that can happen often.

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But there's a developmental stage and

typically people say seven, a lot of

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researchers will articulate seven as they

age, where that really should be overcome.

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And maybe if you have an occasional one

once in a while, that would be all right.

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But if you're still persistently seeing

those challenges, that would be another

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red flag that might tell you something's

going on with how this child's brain

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is processing letters and sounds.

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but I think there are a lot of really,

really great screener tools out there

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now, and the more that the field has

evolved, the more researchers that

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are getting involved with this, the

more people are recognizing that

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early intervention is really best.

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So how can we develop these

screener tools that are accessible

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to people so that curious parents

can find out more information?

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Mike: Mm-hmm.

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Yeah.

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And a central theme of your

work is neuroplasticity, right?

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The brain's ability to reorganize itself.

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So can you talk a little bit

about what that means in terms of

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like, in the context of dyslexia?

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Rebecca: Yeah, absolutely.

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So when we've looked at the research

over the last 20 plus years, there

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have been seminal studies, whether

it's by, Guinevere Eden and her team at

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Georgetown or Sally Shaywitz or others.

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But what they found is that

by doing specific explicit

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work to reconnect those areas.

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There is change in brain

function and they've shown that

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consistently and clinically on

brain scans, specifically fMRI.

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So you would see that post-treatment,

you're actually using the same brain

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regions as a typical reader would,

which I think is in incredibly

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powerful to know if you're a parent

or an educator like Holy cow, you

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can actually change how this looks.

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But I think something that is

really intentional in our work

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is giving that tool to a parent.

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So, when you go to a clinical setting,

and you might be doing that two days a

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week, it's a very different myelination

process than if you're doing that for

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10 to 15 minutes every single day.

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And so we've just really found that,

especially with things co-occurring like

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ADHD, if you can't sit there for more

than 10 to 15 minutes, the parent has the

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ability to break that up and say, great,

we might do this for seven minutes and

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then we're gonna take a little break,

and then we might do that for eight

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more minutes, and the child is calm and

the environment is primed for learning.

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So we've just really seen that by giving

these tools of helping to reconnect

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those areas of the brain to make

that automatic and functionally like

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a typical reader is most powerfully

done with the parent at the helm.

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Mike: Mm-hmm.

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Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

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it's, yeah, it makes me think that,

with the rehabilitation process in

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general, like I do a bit of clinical

rehabilitation, mental health

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support, and it's clear that changing

brain networks through stimulation

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and training it's like kind of the

bedrock of the rehabilitative process.

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So in some ways, literacy training seems

like a form of cognitive neurostimulation

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or cognitive rehabilitation, right?

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Rebecca: Exactly.

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Yes, that's exactly right.

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Yep.

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Mike: Yeah.

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That's

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Rebecca: very behavioral in nature.

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Yes.

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Mike: Yeah, so super interesting.

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And then I guess there's

the emotional impact, right?

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Because especially if, if this goes

under recognized for months or years,

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then that's gonna understandably lead

people, children, especially to feel

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things like shame and frustration

or that they're not intelligent.

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And so that must in some ways then

add to the challenge, because perhaps

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then there'd be less inclined to be

wanting to put the effort into the

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work that might need to be done to

try to overcome those challenges.

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Rebecca: Absolutely.

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And I think stress absolutely plays a

role in how the brain functions, right?

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So whether you're looking at cortisol

or oxidative stress, or any of those

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other things that might impact cognitive

function in general, the more anxious

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you are, the more overwhelmed that

you are, the more angry that you are.

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All of that impacts learning in a negative

way, and so I think that's part of the

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reason why there's so many researchers

in the field really pushing toward early

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intervention, early identification,

because, if we can head that off before

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all of these psychological or emotional

impacts, we really have the chance at

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completely changing the trajectory of

this child's or this person's outcome.

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Not impossible to change if it is later.

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I do wanna make that point, like even

if you are older and you're just finding

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out about this now, it's not too late.

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Mike: Mm-hmm.

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Rebecca: But ideal if you can prevent

yourself from years of heartache.

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Absolutely.

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Mike: Yeah.

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I wonder if there, because of the

importance of that early detection

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and early intervention, I wonder if

now that, because a lot of children

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are in some sort of preschool or, or

daycare before even starting grade

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school, if there can be some targeted

identification and intervention

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strategies even before the school age,

population, has that been explored?

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Rebecca: I think that's an excellent

idea, and I would say that right now

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there are states in the US that are

mandating screening kindergarten,

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first grade, second grade, third grade.

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And so that movement, if you will,

is growing in its size, depending

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on legislation, depending on,

policy and those types of things.

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But, to do that in the pre-kindergarten

stages, I think would be ideal.

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And it's not been done at a

grand scale, but something that

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absolutely, should be done soon.

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Mike: Yeah, it would probably be a

bit challenging to maybe overcome

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some misconceptions about when,

when it's normal, so to speak, in

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quotes, to start, to learn to read.

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But maybe it would be even more geared

towards, again, those, those more crawling

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type in, in the metaphor of crawling,

aspects like the attention and the

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executive functioning, without having

these young kids put under too much of a

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microscope, but some way of just having

a bit of a flag to say, if it's quite

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clear to the caregivers, for example,

that they would have some way to refer

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or have a spark up a discussion with the

parents or something along those lines.

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Right?

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Rebecca: Yes.

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And I do think, even practitioners

in the medical field would have a,

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a critical role in that as well.

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So they're doing well child checks,

they're looking for specific milestones.

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I think there could be an

opportunity to ask questions

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or do a screen at that point.

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what does this look like

for your child right now?

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To at least invite the conversation.

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Mike: Mm-hmm.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Maybe kind of like just tagged onto

some sort of current, scheduled

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intervention, wherever those young

preschool ages are or something like that.

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Yeah.

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Rebecca: Could be incredibly powerful.

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Mike: Yeah.

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So, yeah, that's interesting.

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I think the other thing about it is like,

it makes me think about what might be

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some of the other barriers or challenges

that the legacy education system has

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struggled with in order to apply these

more, perhaps, cutting edge ideas like,

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obviously teachers are busy and everyone's

doing their best and everyone's strained

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with resources and that, but what might

be some ways that the, the educational

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system can try to apply concepts like

neuroplasticity or neuroscientific

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approaches to reading instruction?

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is there a way that it could be

kind of manualized and applied

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in the classroom, do you think?

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Rebecca: That's a great question.

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I think that there are a lot of

different things that could be done.

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First of all, identification.

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Do we know who might need this?

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But more importantly, what we would

do to help the development of a

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child with dyslexia would actually

be very beneficial for all learners.

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And so it's not like, if we had

curriculum, if we had instruction

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or time in the day, that we

would focus on growing our brain.

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And how do we do that in a way that.

389

Would just be part of the

generalized instructional model.

390

I think that there's a lot of

opportunity for not only a child

391

with dyslexia to grow, but for all

children to get some benefit from that.

392

And gosh, I think one of the things

that you started talking about made me

393

think back to my years, 20 years ago in

working with those high school students.

394

There's just such a misconception

that because you're in high school and

395

you're still not learning to read, that

we're not gonna go back and actually

396

teach your brain to learn to read.

397

We're just going to give you the

compensatory skills or tools to get by.

398

And I really think that that paradigm

has got such a detriment to not only

399

the total lifetime outcomes of the

child, but just, to kind of ignore the

400

neuroscience of what we know is possible.

401

So I think that there could be some

tremendous shifting in what we believe

402

is possible for older students as well.

403

Mike: Yeah, that's, that's very

important to think about for sure.

404

I, I really appreciate that perspective.

405

I suppose in terms of things like

more foundational things, even like

406

attention and executive function and

self-awareness, it could be something

407

as straightforward as helping to

teach very young children basic kinds

408

of mindfulness strategies, right?

409

Rebecca: Yoga practices.

410

Yes, absolutely.

411

Right.

412

Mike: Yeah, that's really interesting.

413

And then I guess one thing as well is,

so, maybe for parents who are watching

414

or listening who suspect that their

child might be struggling with any of

415

these topics that we're discussing,

what might be some suggestions on where,

416

where they may go, like next steps in

terms of helping to get, whether it's

417

identifying the concern or helping to make

a course correction, what would be some

418

suggestions that you could offer for them?

419

Rebecca: Yeah, that's

such a great question.

420

So we're on a mission to try to help as

many families to do this as possible.

421

And so about once a month we have a

dyslexia discovery workshop where we're

422

triangulating data, we're looking at

a spelling score, a reading score,

423

a phonological awareness score, and

we're trying to, based on age, look

424

at what is typical for this age?

425

If you are 11 years and three

months, this is what we might

426

expect in reading, spelling and

phonological awareness, and where is

427

your child at with regard to that?

428

And so it's, it's information

such that you are then equipped

429

to say, this is right on track.

430

And it's functioning exactly

as typical, or there is a huge

431

discrepancy here between my child's

present level of performance and

432

where they would be expected to be.

433

And it's not that we have

any cognitive challenges.

434

This child is average or above

average in intelligence, and yet

435

we have this unexpected delay

as it pertains to language.

436

And so that's really where

it sparks the conversation.

437

Gosh, could this be dyslexia?

438

Where the brain is really not, and

whether you call it that or you don't,

439

whether you have a diagnosis or you

don't, it doesn't prevent you from

440

doing work to reorganize how the brain

is connecting letters and sounds.

441

And so I think a lot of times people

get the impression that like, oh,

442

I must have this formal diagnosis.

443

I must have this clinical piece of paper.

444

There can be benefits to doing that

certainly, but, if you also just

445

suspect that my child is not reading

or spelling the way that they should,

446

and despite all of my efforts, I don't

seem to be making any improvements,

447

there could be a definite benefit to

screen to see if that's really true

448

and then move forward with helping

them to neurologically rehabilitate.

449

Mike: Yeah.

450

Yeah, it's interesting.

451

I'm curious about the concept of

phonemic awareness, because I guess

452

like thinking back to that book that

I, I was mentioning before and, and

453

I guess the whole approach to phonics

based reading instruction, maybe, if you

454

don't mind, just helping us understand,

what's that concept of phonemic

455

awareness and what's the relevance?

456

Rebecca: Yeah, so it's basically.

457

Having letters without letters.

458

So if I said, okay, Michael,

the word is Germany.

459

I want you to take out the

sound, ma, what's left?

460

Hmm.

461

So in order for you to do that skill,

you'd need to mentally recognize and

462

visualize that German has three syllables.

463

You'd need to know that MA is the middle

syllable and GER and NY are left, and you

464

put them together and it makes GER-NY.

465

That mental Olympics that's required is

essential for you to be able to decode

466

through a new word that you don't know.

467

And you are working sound by

sound through figuring that out.

468

It's essential for being

able to spell accurately.

469

Gosh, if I don't even hear one of

those sounds in there and my brain

470

can't hold that information, I

can't manipulate that information.

471

It is going to have an impact

on my reading and spelling

472

success moving forward.

473

And so this concept of, I can visualize

a word in my head and it's connected

474

together to sound whether it's total

words or it's sound parts is critical.

475

So we kind of think of that as an

early foundational skill that's needed

476

prior to, but more importantly, when we

look at the data on who gets diagnosed

477

for dyslexia, 80% of those who have

a deficit in phonological awareness

478

end up with a diagnosis of dyslexia.

479

Mike: Yeah, that's really, that's super

interesting and I imagine that maybe that

480

would be something that in a book that's

based on phonics as the strategy towards

481

teaching, reading that by itself, if

there's a specific deficit in that kind

482

of ability, then that might make it quite

challenging for someone to move forward

483

with the phonics-based reading curriculum.

484

Would that be accurate?

485

Rebecca: Exactly.

486

Right.

487

So going back to our analogy of crawl,

walk, run, we're coming in at walk

488

or run when we're just going phonics

based curriculum, but we've ignored

489

those earlier developmental steps of

helping the brain to actually connect

490

letters and sounds, some of the

executive functioning pieces, et cetera.

491

Mike: Yeah.

492

Well that, that makes me think, and

I really don't know much about this,

493

but I remember listening to a podcast

where there was some discussion about

494

the fallacy and, and unfortunate,

experiment, I suppose you would say,

495

in terms of promoting whole world.

496

Whole, whole that that's a Freudian

slip that's kind of ironic in and of

497

itself, a whole word reading effort.

498

Right.

499

So trying to teach kids to read one

whole word at a time, which to me

500

just sounds like teaching them to

sprint before they can crawl, right?

501

According to your analogy.

502

Rebecca: Yes.

503

And it kind of goes back to this idea of

when we look at how words are constructed,

504

if you teach explicitly the word parts

and the sounds associated to those

505

word parts, I believe that the data is

something like 40,000 words that you

506

have the ability to access by using the

skill of putting together those sounds in

507

order to decode the word, as opposed to,

whatever your memory might be if you were

508

to memorize whole words, certainly it's

far less than 40,000, I would imagine.

509

Mike: Mm-hmm.

510

Yeah, it's kind of like

chunking, I suppose.

511

Right.

512

Like that cognitive

memory skill of chunking.

513

Right.

514

Interesting.

515

So interesting.

516

it's just, it's, so when I, I was

just kind of thinking back to the

517

whole topic that we were touching

on there about the emotional

518

repercussions, the emotional side of it.

519

Right.

520

Because I guess, with you, when you

combine the challenges, as you say,

521

the overlap with ADHD, and people,

children sort of feeling labeled

522

or kind of ostracized as a result

of having these challenges now.

523

I think that would be the other thing in

terms of early identification and early

524

intervention would be to make sure that

there's at least some way that teachers

525

and parents can kind of be attentive to

the fact that their child might be anxious

526

or depressed as a result of these things,

because clearly then the mental health

527

repercussions can sort of snowball the

cognitive problem as well and so then

528

you end up getting this kind of, downward

spiral because of the cognitive and

529

the emotional problems going together.

530

Rebecca: Absolutely.

531

Yes.

532

I think confidence goes a long

way in every area of your life.

533

And we do find that once children

are able to start feeling more

534

confident about their reading,

they're suddenly volunteering to

535

be the lead in the school play.

536

And they're raising their hand

in class and they're reading to

537

their siblings at night when they

never wanted to do that before.

538

And it was never because of apathy,

it was because of confidence.

539

And so it does play such a powerful

role in the overall lifetime outcomes

540

that think it's essential to be

addressed as early as possible.

541

Mike: Mm-hmm.

542

Yeah.

543

And so I think that's part of why

this framing of neurodivergence

544

is so helpful because it's taking

away the label, the disease or the

545

disorder to the extent that's helpful.

546

Right.

547

And reframing it in terms of just like a

different way that, that an individual's

548

brain is operating and they need more

of an adjustment in terms of how the

549

world comes to them instead of how

they're coming to the world in that way.

550

Right.

551

Or there's just a need for

a little or maybe a lot of

552

tweaking of that integration.

553

Rebecca: Yes, it, it's not that the

dyslexic brain is missing something,

554

it's that the signal isn't getting

through reliably, and I think that's

555

a very different clinical picture

than a permanent structural deficit.

556

Mike: Mm-hmm.

557

Yeah, and it's like, again, with the

whole neurodivergence idea and the, the

558

fact that there's often an overlap with

giftedness, it makes me think that,

559

and it's an interesting conversation,

right, in terms of how the research

560

is showing also that with specific

kinds of challenges like dyslexia,

561

that there may also be cognitive

strengths that come along with that.

562

Like, as I understand enhanced

spatial reasoning or creativity,

563

or maybe even later on in life

entrepreneurship, that kind of stuff.

564

Rebecca: That's exactly right, and I do

think that awareness can be very, very

565

powerful to lean into early on because

of identity type conversations, right?

566

Like you are very good

at spatial reasoning.

567

Let's think about how

we could enhance that.

568

What daily activities could you do?

569

What interests.

570

Could we foster, what clubs could we

involve you in that would allow you to

571

really shine some of your strengths?

572

And so identification, again, to our

point of early identification, can

573

also help you to make decisions about

how to grow those strengths too.

574

Mike: And maybe even recruiting

those strengths in a way to help

575

with the reading, learning, right.

576

Or using technology.

577

Like, I can think of TV shows that I

would always try and encourage the kids to

578

watch, like the, the reading ones, right?

579

That's always a double-edged

sword too, right?

580

With the, the, the screens

and the iPads and the reading.

581

But I suppose you could carefully

and, and thoughtfully figure out ways.

582

I'm sure people have, I'm sure

there are tons of apps out there.

583

Maybe you can comment on any that you

might recommend, at the risk of having

584

kids too much on screens already with

all of what goes along with that, right?

585

But I think in a targeted and sensible and

time-limited way, hopefully, that there

586

are some technological applications that

can maybe recruit what these, strengths

587

might be like the spatial reasoning or

the creativity, that can then also be

588

kind of like, maybe sort of in a way

hijacked to help with the, reading,

589

learning kind of strategies as well.

590

Rebecca: Absolutely.

591

So it's funny that you mentioned that.

592

I'm actually involved in the

startup of a new company.

593

It's called Digitalize, but the entire

purpose of that is to grow the strength

594

of a child with dyslexia, help them to

play games through playcraft that would

595

give them the opportunity to enhance

spatial reasoning, to enhance creativity,

596

to enhance big picture thinking,

some of those skills that we know are

597

prevalent in a child with dyslexia.

598

Mike: That's fantastic and I just wanna

make sure, so the company is Visualized?

599

Rebecca: Yes.

600

so we are attending South by Southwest

next week to just kind of help

601

people to become aware of what it is.

602

It's still very much in its infancy

stages, but the vision is to help a

603

child's brain to grow through play

and play craft, to learn how to

604

interact with different materials

and learn how to interact with their

605

environments such that we grow what

is naturally present in the child.

606

Mike: Amazing.

607

That's fantastic.

608

And so, yeah, we'll put links to, any

sort of like websites or other ways

609

that people can find out more about

that particular company and what you

610

have to offer, what you're developing.

611

That sounds incredible.

612

Rebecca: Thank you.

613

Mike: For sure.

614

yeah, I guess, wrapping up here,

I guess maybe we could talk a

615

little bit about certain things,

just to kind of round it out.

616

It's been such an

interesting conversation.

617

Maybe what would be one or two messages

that you wish that every struggling

618

reader could hear and or parent or,

or even like you were saying earlier,

619

later in life, just to provide hope

and really reinforce this idea about

620

neuroplasticity, throughout the age range.

621

Rebecca: I think, thank

you for asking that.

622

First of all, think.

623

The biggest idea that I would

love to impress is that it

624

is not a permanent structural

deficit that cannot be overcome.

625

What we know is that there is a weaker

connection between these two areas of

626

the brain, and when we look at neuro

imaging studies over the last 20 plus

627

years, and when we look at all of

the research and data that continues

628

to come out about how the brain can

actually change in its structure and

629

function as a result of training.

630

Your brain does not have to continue

to struggle with connecting letters

631

and sounds, and so I think that that

is just so powerful and so empowering

632

to know and believe because of the

actual neuroscience, that this is

633

not a lifelong sentence for you.

634

Regardless of age.

635

Mm-hmm.

636

Mike: Yeah.

637

Thanks so much.

638

That's such a hopeful and

inspiring message for sure.

639

Well, Dr.

640

Troy, Rebecca, thank you so much

for, for your passion in this, for

641

your interest, for sharing your

wisdom and your knowledge with us.

642

It's really been a

fascinating conversation.

643

Yeah, just really appreciate it.

644

Rebecca: Me too.

645

Thank you very much.

646

Mike: Yeah, and what I'm.

647

so happy to take away from our discussion

is that dyslexia is not a deficit, as

648

you're describing, it's a different

way that the brain processes language,

649

and with the right tools and training,

because of this neuroplasticity that

650

it's so important that people understand

that the brain can reorganize and

651

thrive under corrective circumstances.

652

And so, for parents listening, or

really anyone, but particularly, I

653

suppose, parents and young ones as

well, the most important message

654

is that there is hope, right?

655

This, hopefully this is gonna be an

inspiring message for you all that

656

through neuroplasticity targeted

training and supportive environments

657

with technologies like in Visualize Dr.

658

Troy's company that she's involved with,

struggling readers can develop the skills

659

and confidence that they need to succeed.

660

So again, Dr.

661

Rebecca Troy, thank you so

much for joining us today.

662

Really appreciate, all of

what you had to offer today.

663

Rebecca: My pleasure.

664

Thank you.

665

Mike: And thanks everyone

for watching and listening.

666

if you enjoyed today's episode, please

do like and subscribe, share it with

667

a colleague, friend, family member,

anyone you think that might benefit.

668

don't hesitate to leave comments

or a review in the show notes.

669

And, again, we'll put the links to Dr.

670

Troy's content there and I would really

encourage you all to check that out.

671

So until next time, be well, stay

curious and we'll see you again

672

on the Neurostimulation podcast.