Are you feeling overwhelmed by an endless barrage of meetings that leave you with little time to actually get work done? In this episode, we dive into the issue of excessive meeting time, sharing practical strategies to help you regain control of your schedule.
Key points from this episode
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Hello, and welcome to this week's episode.
2
:Today, we are talking about how to
reduce the time spent in meetings.
3
:And this is a response to a
specific question that came in
4
:around how much time is too much.
5
:And I suppose, what's
normal in a leadership role.
6
:So we thought this is definitely
something that we should discuss because
7
:we all know meetings, there's so many
meetings, there's meetings for meetings,
8
:and the meetings can really take up
a huge chunk of time and really stop
9
:you from being effective in your role.
10
:So we're going to unpack
it all today, aren't we?
11
:So Jackie, let's.
12
:kick off with why is spending so
much time in meetings such an issue?
13
:Jacqui: There's a number of
factors that come into this.
14
:So sometimes there is genuinely an issue
in that so much of your time is spent in
15
:meetings that you don't then have time
to do the other elements of your role.
16
:But also it's because time
in meetings can feel like a
17
:drain rather than an energizer.
18
:It doesn't feel like meetings
are always productive.
19
:It feels that you can be spending so
much time paying back to back in meetings
20
:that you don't even have time to think.
21
:So when you do have time, that's not in
meetings, your brain's just trying to
22
:recuperate and get back to an even keel.
23
:So I think some of it is genuinely
about how much time is reasonable
24
:and how should that time be spent?
25
:And some of it is about having better
meetings so that time actually feels
26
:productive and delivers a result
rather than just creates busy work.
27
:Pam: Yeah, definitely.
28
:And I think that's a thing, isn't it?
29
:Because when you are going through the
week and there's so many meetings, it
30
:does really stop you from having that
space to think and the space to do
31
:the other work that you need to do.
32
:So I suppose if we're looking at meetings
generally, like how long is too long?
33
:What is or what should a normal
amount of meetings look like?
34
:It aren't, if you look
at a week in isolation.
35
:Jacqui: And it was interesting
because when this question came in,
36
:there was quite a varied response.
37
:And when you look at the stats about
what is normal, that was really reflected
38
:in the responses to this question.
39
:So I think first off, it's important to
say it varies hugely depending upon your
40
:role, depending upon your level, depending
upon your company or organization.
41
:But as a rule of thumb, if you are
becoming more senior in your career,
42
:then you should probably expect that
the more senior you become, the bigger
43
:the proportion of your working week
that will be spent within meetings.
44
:So at an initial management level, you
can probably expect give or take 20 to
45
:40%, probably 25 to 30 is about typical.
46
:If you're a leadership level,
you're moving from a management
47
:role up to a leadership level.
48
:Then you're probably looking
closer between 40 and 50.
49
:And if you're at a very senior level,
if you're CEO, C suite type level,
50
:then you probably talking in excess
of 50 and maybe around 60 to 70
51
:percent of your working week will
be spent in meetings of some kind.
52
:And those meetings can be brief
meetings, they can be one to one
53
:meetings, they can be project meetings,
they can be strategic meetings.
54
:There's a whole raft of different types
and formats and lengths of meetings that
55
:will make up that overall number, but
probably rule of thumb, I think those
56
:feel that they've been fairly reflective
with most of my clients and with responses
57
:that I've seen from others as well.
58
:Pam: Yeah.
59
:And that does sound like, a
fair kind of split depending
60
:on the level that you're in.
61
:And I suppose that the other thing is.
62
:If you're thinking all I do is spend
my time in meetings, am I actually
63
:spending too long in meetings or is
this just because it's the level that
64
:I'm at and the job that I'm doing?
65
:So what would you say the signs are?
66
:That you're spending too long in
meetings, like what can you look for and
67
:start like really, digging a little bit
deeper and thinking, am I spending too
68
:long or is this just part of my role?
69
:Jacqui: So the seven signs, and when
I dig with clients or talk to people
70
:in leadership development workshops,
these are some of the things that I
71
:encourage people to think about as
signs that potentially they could
72
:reduce the time spent in meetings.
73
:First and foremost is if there's no
opportunity in your calendar, we've
74
:talked so many different episodes
about the importance of blocking
75
:time and having good quality thinking
time within your working week.
76
:And if you're meetings are chopped here,
there, and everywhere in your diary.
77
:And your week is so full that you are
not having opportunity for focus time.
78
:Then that's a sign that either you
need fewer meetings or you need to
79
:organize when and how those meetings
are structured differently to be
80
:able to create that thinking time.
81
:So I think that's the first sign.
82
:And that's often, I think, instinctively,
where people ask that question of
83
:themselves, it's often that sense of,
I just feel so busy with meetings,
84
:I've got no time to do anything else.
85
:So I think that's often the first
sign that people would notice.
86
:Another pattern that I see, and
particularly as people get more senior,
87
:is when all of your actual work is done
before or after regular office hours.
88
:So you feel like your only opportunity for
focus time is before nine or after five or
89
:whatever the equivalent working hours are.
90
:So you're doing work once all the
meetings are finished and in theory,
91
:when the working day is finished, and
that's certainly a pattern again, that
92
:I see repeated time and time again.
93
:Then you've got the things where you
want to be able to plan a meeting.
94
:But actually your calendar is so chocker
that, maybe there's two or three of you
95
:that want to meet, but because everybody's
diary is so chocker, you look in two
96
:or three weeks down the line before you
can actually find a suitable meeting
97
:time where everybody can get together.
98
:So these are some of the things that
kind of start to come to the fore.
99
:You've then got things like frustration
or burnout, where I remember an
100
:HR director talking to me and
saying, I feel like human pinball.
101
:I'm just literally pinging
from meeting to meeting.
102
:My entire day is back to back meetings.
103
:And then you end up with this kind of
frustration with burnout with your mind
104
:is wandering in one meeting because
you're thinking about the next, or
105
:you're thinking about the last one.
106
:So you're not present in the
meetings that you are actually in.
107
:Or then you might be going to
meetings where you're listening, but
108
:you're not actually contributing or
gaining any value from being there.
109
:So the time that you're spending
in meetings is not adding value
110
:by you being there or giving
you value by you being there.
111
:And then the last couple is, again,
meeting Groundhog Day, where you're
112
:listening to that same conversation time
and time again, and you're having maybe
113
:regular meetings or update meetings,
and it is just like Groundhog Day.
114
:Time is, you're hearing the same things,
and things are just not moving on.
115
:And another one that I've probably
only really recognized more recently
116
:with clients is this pattern of
having huge amounts of your time when
117
:you're not in meetings is preparing
for the meetings that you are in.
118
:So this can be preparing detailed
reports or board packs, and it
119
:can actually be reading all the
material or kind of reviewing all the
120
:material that has been put together
for other peoples contributions
121
:within those meetings as well.
122
:So if a huge amount of your time
outside meetings is doing those
123
:things, then that's a sign that between
that and the actual meetings, you
124
:probably haven't got much of the time.
125
:Pam: Yeah.
126
:And I think that's the thing, isn't it?
127
:Like when you've got loads of meetings in
and then the meetings just seem to come
128
:back around really quickly, don't they?
129
:And then you panic and thinking,
I still haven't done the actions.
130
:From the last meeting, because
there hasn't been enough
131
:time and it's hard, isn't it?
132
:Trying to refocus.
133
:And I suppose you get yourself
stuck in that cycle of just carrying
134
:on, keep going, keep, pushing on.
135
:And I suppose this is
a good point, isn't it?
136
:To take a breather and go, okay.
137
:Am I, can I relate to any of
those signs and what can I do?
138
:So I suppose the next thing
to talk about really is.
139
:What can you do if you relate or you
recognize any of these signs and you
140
:realize that you're spending too much
time in meetings, what can you do?
141
:Jacqui: I have a framework for this.
142
:There are four D's that I talk about
that can be approaches that you can
143
:use and in an ideal world you'll use
Several of these rather than just
144
:one, but if we break them down one
by one and explore each one first.
145
:So the first is to ditch, and this
is about looking in your calendar.
146
:And particularly this tends
to be the meetings that are
147
:perhaps your own meetings that
you've set up or team meetings.
148
:That you have with members of your
team and it's looking at what is the
149
:purpose of these meetings and how
effective are these meetings and do
150
:they still need to be in the diary?
151
:So the kind of simplest way to
free up time from meetings is to
152
:remove unnecessary meetings from
your calendar and that can be.
153
:Looking, so in particular, I
encourage people to look at recurring
154
:meetings and to look at, are those
meetings serving their purpose?
155
:Because a lot of recurring meetings get
put in, they, like you've just described
156
:so perfectly, roll around really quickly.
157
:And often there isn't necessarily
a clear purpose for each one.
158
:It's just been put in
there as regular time.
159
:They.
160
:Don't necessarily always feel productive
and it can be that you need the
161
:meeting, but you don't need it as often.
162
:So for example, it could be that when
you started working somewhere, you
163
:might want to have a team meeting
every week or every other week with the
164
:members of your team, because there's
a lot of stuff to get yourself up to
165
:speed on and to build relationships.
166
:So we did the episode previously
about how not to have shit meetings.
167
:And one of the things we talked about
within that was the framework of pop,
168
:which is purpose, outcomes, and process.
169
:And that means starting and understanding
for every meeting in your calendar.
170
:That could be, there should be
a clear purpose, a clear reason.
171
:Why that meeting is being held.
172
:And if that's not the case or
it's shifted, then review it,
173
:change the frequency, ditch
it altogether if needs be.
174
:Pam: Yeah.
175
:And that absolutely
makes sense, doesn't it?
176
:Because I suppose that is,
that's the first point, isn't it?
177
:Where you write what is necessary
and what is unnecessary.
178
:Because until you do that
analysis on the meetings that
179
:you have in, it's hard to know.
180
:What takes priority, what is important,
what actually needs to happen, and
181
:once you've analyzed the meetings
and what happens within those, that
182
:can also be the basis of starting
to push back and ask questions.
183
:And are these meetings really necessary?
184
:Do we need to have them on a weekly
basis, could it be a monthly update
185
:or whatever it is, but it just
gives you that space doesn't it
186
:to think, is it necessary or not.
187
:Jacqui: And in terms of purpose, one
thing that I heard fairly recently, but
188
:I really is that a meeting should have
predominantly one of four purposes.
189
:So it should either be to learn,
to decide, to bond, or to do.
190
:Pam: I love that.
191
:Jacqui: It's simple, isn't it?
192
:We love simple.
193
:Pam: Brilliant, yeah.
194
:Jacqui: And so if you recognize that
with your recurring meetings, like the
195
:example I gave in the early days with a
newly formed team, it can be important
196
:to have more frequent contact in order
to Have more of that bonding time.
197
:And certainly when everybody was
working remotely, for example,
198
:it might have been that people
didn't have that catch up time.
199
:So you may be needed some of that bonding
time within the week that was scheduled.
200
:So that everybody did come
together because you could go weeks
201
:without everybody being together.
202
:It doesn't necessarily
remain the same over time.
203
:And similarly with things like one
to ones with your team members.
204
:It might be that you don't need
those as often with one person
205
:as you do with somebody else.
206
:So many of those things can change over
time and that's where recurring meetings
207
:are such a good opportunity to review
because a lot of these things that just
208
:happen repeatedly had one purpose that
they were serving at the point that they
209
:were created and that purpose maybe isn't
needed or isn't needed as frequently.
210
:So yeah, be really clear on the
purpose and make sure that you
211
:only have meetings that do have
a reason for them to be needed.
212
:Pam: Yeah, definitely.
213
:So what's the next thing
then that that people can do?
214
:Jacqui: So the next one is about
looking at declining meetings.
215
:So this is the meetings where
they're not your meeting.
216
:You're not the person that's
setting up or running the meeting.
217
:You don't own it as such, but where you
are looking at, do I need to spend time?
218
:And a lot of the people that I work
with are really nice people and
219
:they work with other nice people.
220
:And what can happen when people are nice
and they get on and they're agreeable
221
:is that they want to involve people
and what that can then translate to
222
:is that you came to a meeting once
and then you're invited to every
223
:time that meeting happens again.
224
:This isn't necessarily that you
need to just start declining
225
:meetings and saying to people,
not coming to your stupid meeting.
226
:Bye.
227
:This is about being clear on again,
the purpose, not just the purpose
228
:for the meeting, but the purpose
for you being at the meeting.
229
:And if you're not needed for that meeting,
or if you're not needed for the whole
230
:of that meeting, is there a different
way that you can input to that meeting?
231
:And.
232
:I think sometimes you can feel like
you've got to accept a meeting request,
233
:but you don't even really know why
you're accepting that meeting request.
234
:You don't know what the agenda is.
235
:You don't know what, why you're
needed as part of that meeting.
236
:And this can happen in organizations
where meeting culture is just, we just
237
:put meetings in and there is no clarity.
238
:But yeah, I think it's important that
you understand what your reason is for
239
:being there and are willing to challenge.
240
:If you don't believe you need to be there,
then let that person give you a reason.
241
:Be open to, you might need to either
prepare or provide something for it.
242
:Be there for the whole meeting
or be there for part of it.
243
:There's a real big opportunity for
a lot of people to highlight that
244
:if I'm not adding value and I'm not
gaining value, then my time will
245
:be better spent somewhere else.
246
:Pam: Yeah, definitely.
247
:And I think with that as well, one
of the things that I used to do is I
248
:used to ask, the question what do you
actually need from me in this meeting?
249
:And where possible, I would maybe send
one of my direct reports so that they
250
:could go and be the presence in the room.
251
:They could bring back any information
and it was a great development
252
:opportunity for them as well.
253
:So I suppose that's always another option.
254
:As well, if they just want your presence
in the room for whatever reason, that
255
:is just maybe so that they're not
repeating things or whatever, at least
256
:then it gives you the opportunity to
help support someone else's development
257
:while providing that presence without
completely stopping the starting point.
258
:Decline in that meeting as well.
259
:Jacqui: Yeah.
260
:And that can be really helpful for,
there are other people sometimes who
261
:want to be in those meetings and who are
more relevant to be in those meetings.
262
:Sometimes it is better for someone
who is closer to the detail to be
263
:able to give input in a meeting.
264
:And I've certainly been the person that's
been in meetings where I'm asked questions
265
:and I'm I need to talk with my team to
be able to answer that question for you.
266
:So definitely it can be better for someone
else to be there and be a part of that.
267
:And like you say, that can also
feel a real positive for somebody
268
:else that they can represent.
269
:You or represent the team or just
represent themselves and have
270
:that opportunity to interact with
people who are maybe from other
271
:functions or a more senior level.
272
:So yeah, completely support that.
273
:Pam: Fab.
274
:So the third one, this is my favorite
part of the, of your framework with this.
275
:So what's the third
thing that people can do?
276
:Jacqui: So the third thing is
about designing the meetings.
277
:So again, this comes back to.
278
:The meetings where you have that
capability, where you have that
279
:opportunity to be able to design the
meetings so that they are more productive,
280
:so that they are more energizing.
281
:And a lot of this we did
cover when we talked about
282
:how not to have shit meetings.
283
:They're very simple things.
284
:So having that framework,
having that clarity on, What's
285
:the purpose for the meeting?
286
:What outcomes do we need to have and
what structure does it, it need to
287
:work to having some clarity as well
about expectations of the prep that
288
:might be required so that other people
know what they can bring so that you
289
:can move that conversation forward.
290
:Through the meetings.
291
:So particularly if you need to make
decisions within meetings, which is
292
:often the purpose of meetings, then if
everybody is prepared and understands
293
:what decisions need to be made, then
that's really helpful to frame it.
294
:And on that note, a real specific
with this that I really like is when
295
:you're framing the agenda, instead
of having discussion points, have
296
:questions that need to be answered.
297
:So instead of writing an agenda and
circulating it and saying we're going
298
:to discuss XYZ project, be specific
about what are the decisions that
299
:need to be made within this meeting.
300
:On that project.
301
:So it could be about the resource
capability needed for the next phase
302
:of this project and which areas of
the business are going to be needed.
303
:It could be about.
304
:I don't know, the operational
challenges and sharing an understanding
305
:of the operational challenges
that we're going to have when we
306
:get to the implementation phase.
307
:But when you frame your agenda
points as questions, creates.
308
:a brain's naturally hook into
that sense of, Oh, what do
309
:I think about that question?
310
:And your brain naturally starts
to try and answer that question.
311
:So instead of just reading it as it's
a discussion point and your brain just
312
:files it as okay Yeah, we'll have a
chat about it on the day It gets people
313
:preparing in a way that doesn't feel
like you're asking them to do work.
314
:Pam: Yeah, I love that.
315
:And I think one of the other things
as well that that I like to do is
316
:if there is a discussion point.
317
:So if the, if it is just a, an update,
put in a time limit against that, so that
318
:if somebody is there and it's their job
to give an update, it's like a 60 seconds
319
:update or a two minute update, and they
know exactly then how long they've got.
320
:Because I think sometimes meetings can
run over because people will run away
321
:with their updates and I absolutely
love the switching it to questions
322
:rather than just discussion points.
323
:And I think the more
specific that you can be.
324
:The easier the meetings will be the
more enjoyable meetings will be because
325
:you'll know you'll go into that meeting,
it's got structure, you know what to
326
:expect, you know the updates aren't
going to run away with themselves.
327
:You can go into that meeting
in a real positive mindset.
328
:I think sometimes, especially when
you're dealing with a loss of meetings,
329
:it can become quite negative and
you're like, Oh, not another meeting.
330
:Or I don't particularly like this
meeting because I know it goes on and on.
331
:And I don't know where it stops.
332
:And all I can think about is all of
the stuff that I'm not doing while I'm
333
:thinking, while I'm sat there listening to
people droning on about different things.
334
:So I absolutely love that reframe.
335
:Jacqui: And I think when you're
designing your own meetings as well, a
336
:big part of is reflect on how specific
am I being with other people about the
337
:contribution I would like them to make.
338
:So when we were talking about declining
meetings, we said, ask that question,
339
:what contribution do you want from me?
340
:What is it that you need from me?
341
:This way, when you're designing
meetings, you can avoid the need for
342
:that question to be asked, because you
can be really clear on this person needs
343
:to be there to make this contribution.
344
:And so often I have seen with clients
where they are going into meetings for
345
:the first time and they're apprehensive
because there's a real lack of clarity.
346
:So it is, give an update on.
347
:The marketing strategy, give
an update on the financial
348
:performance, give an update on this.
349
:And it's so broad.
350
:And so often then the question gets asked
of other people outside the business.
351
:What the hell shall I include?
352
:And in reality, Don't just ask
someone to give an update, be
353
:clear on what do you want to know?
354
:What questions do you want
answered from their segment?
355
:And that makes it so much quicker and
easier for them to prepare, freeze
356
:that their time outside of meetings,
cause they don't need to spend as long.
357
:It also makes it more relevant and
more interesting because you're only
358
:hearing the things that you actually
want to hear within that segment.
359
:segment.
360
:Pam: Yeah, I think that's perfect
because again, that just helps
361
:streamline those meetings, doesn't it?
362
:And it gives everybody the clarity
and it's just a total different
363
:way of running meetings, isn't it?
364
:Like the, most of the meetings that
we know I'm probably, I was going
365
:to say love, but I think most of the
meetings that we know and hate are the
366
:ones that run away with themselves.
367
:They're not specific.
368
:They've got no clarity that we worry about
going into that, once we're in there,
369
:we're thinking, when is this going to end?
370
:This is not relevant to
me and all the rest of it.
371
:Whereas if it's really specific,
really punchy, it's just a totally
372
:different experience, isn't it?
373
:If you have got to do that many meetings
because they are all necessary for you
374
:to be there, at least if they're running
that way that they are really punchy
375
:and structured and enjoyable to be in.
376
:Jacqui: Yeah, absolutely.
377
:And I know our previous episode, I
remember having feedback from a listener
378
:who said every single meeting that they
put into other people's calendar now,
379
:they include in the invite, the purpose
of this meeting is, and it's They've
380
:really seen a difference in terms of
how they're perceived in the workplace,
381
:because it's impacting them and allowing
them to design their meetings better.
382
:But it's also been really helpful.
383
:And then people have started to adopt
that elsewhere in the organization
384
:because they've seen that and
gone, Oh, actually, I like that.
385
:I'm going to start using that myself.
386
:Pam: Yeah.
387
:And I think that really helps
as well with the attendance
388
:rates, because sometimes Yeah.
389
:People won't even ask you
what this meeting's about.
390
:They'll just go, Oh, I've got
too many things in this week.
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:So I'm just going to decline it.
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:And actually you might really
need that person there.
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:So I think adopting that way of
doing things really helps because.
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:If you know what you're going into,
if you know what your contribution
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:is, then that makes it easier for you,
makes it easier for the people in the
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:meeting, makes it easier for the host,
there's just so many different ways
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:that you can make your life easier.
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:If you have got to spend time
in meetings, make it simpler.
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:It's that old saying, isn't it?
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:Like work smarter rather than harder.
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:And I suppose that is essentially
what we're saying with this.
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:You've got to do it smarter
and it where you can.
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:Reduce the time, and free up more time for
yourself so that you can make more impact.
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:So I suppose overall, there's no downsides
to being more specific and being more
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:intentional about the meetings that you
go to and the meetings that you attend.
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:Also set up.
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:So what is the final thing then?
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:What is the fourth D in the framework?
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:Jacqui: So the fourth day,
so your favorite was design.
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:And my favorite is this one,
which is drive and drive
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:improvement in meeting culture.
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:And this, follows on from what I was
just saying about when one person
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:improves how they design, then
actually that can start to get adopted.
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:And I think often when people feel
really exhausted by how many meetings
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:they're in and how much time they are
spending in meetings, it's because
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:the meeting culture of the business or
organization as a whole is pretty poor.
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:And so with this, it's about
looking at how can you influence
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:and drive improvement in some
of the general principles.
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:And there was some really, there've
been some really interesting studies
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:around meetings and meeting culture.
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:And one looked at the improvements
in productivity by having
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:one day a week meeting free.
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:And I think this ties back to that first
sign that we were talking about, that the
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:sign you're spending too much time is when
you don't have opportunity for focus time.
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:If you can even within your own team
have an agreement that we don't have
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:meetings on a Friday or we don't have
meetings on a Thursday, whatever, it
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:doesn't matter what day, then everybody
knows not to put those meetings in.
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:And if you can seek to influence that
more broadly, then that starts to
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:really create that situation where
there is a real different feeling.
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:And if you, for example, share with
other people, how much of a difference
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:it's made when you've looked at your
recurring meetings and reduced how many
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:recurring meetings you're attending,
or you're asking that question of,
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:What is the purpose of this meeting?
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:What do you want me to contribute?
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:All of those things start to
really help for you to be.
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:Prompting questions, challenging
maybe, depends how you feel about
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:the meeting culture more generally.
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:And just some really simple things with
things like this that can become really
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:good principles is just to make sure that
there is that clarity on every meeting in
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:this organization should have an agenda.
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:Every meeting should have note circulated
after, and you can do that now.
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:We both use Fathom AI, which is
an artificial intelligence note
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:taker, Teams has its own, Zoom has
its own there's numerous different
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:pieces of software that can.
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:Transcribe and summarize
notes and actions.
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:So you don't have to have somebody
doing this as a big task, but what you
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:can do is then make sure that people
that attended the meeting have got
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:those done really quickly and easily so
that they can refer back to them, but
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:also it can then allow you to do that.
450
:Keep people informed who perhaps
didn't need to be there, but do need
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:to know the outcome from that meeting.
452
:So I think it's really looking
at opportunities to ask questions
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:and be a role model and If you can
directly challenge and suggest how
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:as an organization, we can start
to take some of these things and
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:improve our overall meeting culture.
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:Pam: Yeah, I think I absolutely love
that because I do feel like it will
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:make a huge difference to everybody
that starts to think about doing
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:this, starts to think about being
more intentional with their meetings.
459
:And it just frees up that time for
your own career development and giving
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:yourself that, time and space to make
more of an impact within your role.
461
:So this is actually something that
we do under our catalyst brand.
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:We deliver a whole range of career
skills workshops, and we can do
463
:this virtually, we can come on site.
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:Your business and we can deliver
them face to face as well.
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:And the meetings one, it's
always a really good workshop.
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:People take a lot away from it and
generally will go away with a plan
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:to run more effective meetings.
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:So if you or your team requires
support around running effective
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:meetings, then get in touch with us.
470
:And as usual, we hope you've enjoyed
listening to today's podcast and
471
:please do share it with anyone that
you think might also find it useful.
472
:And don't forget to rate and review
us on your favorite podcast platforms.
473
:And we'll be back next
week with another episode.