Summary / Intro

In this episode, Megan Wimberley sits down with Dr. Tara Fox, Assistant Clinical Professor and Clinical Director at Sacred Heart University, to unpack the complex relationship between anxiety and creativity.

Together they explore how anxiety shows up for artists and art business owners, how to recognize when it becomes more than a passing feeling, and how to build tools that help rather than hinder your creative life.

They discuss real experiences—from living with anxiety as an artist and business owner to understanding the science behind stress responses. They also share practical ways to find balance, self-compassion, and forward momentum in your art and daily life.

Show Notes

Anxiety touches so many artists- from racing thoughts in the studio, perfectionism disguised as productivity, or the moment you freeze before sharing a new piece of work. In this heartfelt conversation, Megan Wimberley sits down with Dr. Tara Fox, Assistant Clinical Professor and licensed professional counselor, to unpack the layers of anxiety and what it really means to live (and create) with it.

Dr. Fox shares her personal journey with ADHD and anxiety, breaking down the difference between everyday worry and a diagnosable disorder. Together, Megan and Dr. Fox explore why getting a diagnosis isn’t about labeling yourself—it’s about understanding yourself, and learning how to find your own version of balance.

They talk about how anxiety often hides behind ambition and overwork, especially for artists trying to build a career. From the outside, it can look like drive or discipline—but underneath might be fear, self-doubt, or a nervous system constantly on alert. Through laughter, honesty, and vulnerability, they shed light on how our brains trick us into thinking we’re “just fine” when really we’re running on fumes.

You’ll hear about the four anxiety responses—fight, flight, freeze, and fawn—and how each can show up in an artist’s life: sending that angry email after a rejection, abandoning a creative project out of fear, or over-committing to please everyone else. But you’ll also hear how awareness and compassion can transform those same patterns into strength—how sensitivity can become intuition, and how anxiety can actually deepen your creativity when it’s managed with care.

If you’ve ever felt like your anxiety keeps you from showing up fully as an artist—or if you’re simply curious about how creativity and mental health intertwine—this episode will remind you that you’re not alone, and that there’s strength in understanding yourself deeply.

Key Takeaways

Anxiety is normal—but when it consistently interferes with your work, relationships, or well-being, it deserves attention and care.

Diagnosis brings information, not identity. It’s a tool for understanding, not a label of limitation.

Artists often live in the gray area between high sensitivity and high performance—learning to pause, breathe, and check in with your body is crucial.

The body keeps the score. Chronic stress patterns can become automatic; awareness helps you break them.

Anxiety can fuel creativity when managed well—enhancing empathy, intuition, and depth of perception.

Healthy coping means returning to balance, not escaping.

Self-compassion is non-negotiable. Your compassion is incomplete if you don’t extend it to yourself.

Help exists. Finding the right therapist or counselor is a sign of strength, not weakness.

Resources & Links

Referenced in this episode:

The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel van der Kolk

The Artist’s Way by Julia Cameron

Psychology Today – Find a Therapist

Open Path Collective – Affordable Counseling Directory

Cowgirl Artists of America – cowgirlartistsofamerica.org

About Dr. Tara Fox

Dr. Tara Fox is currently the Clinical Director and an Assistant Clinical Professor at Sacred Heart University. She received her Ph.D. in Counselor Education from Texas Tech University in 2019. She is a Licensed Professional Counselor Supervisor (LPC-S) for the state of Texas. She is passionate about mental, physical, and emotional wellness and has worked as a rural provider since 2009. She has presented and published on topics including bereavement, boundaries, burnout, compassion fatigue, counselor identity, integrated behavioral health care, integrated health care, mindfulness, online learning, rural counseling, secondhand depression, self-reflection, and telehealth counseling services.

Companies mentioned in this episode:

• Cowgirl Artists of America
• Sacred Heart University
• Texas Tech University
• Open Path Collective
• Psychology Today
• Wayland Baptist University

Hi, welcome to Calgary Artists of America's podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Cowgirl Artists of America, Megan Wimberley. I'm really excited about the podcast today.

We are bringing in a professional to talk to us about anxiety. And I know this is something that so many artists face. Whether it's situational or it's an anxiety disorder, a lot of us experience this.

And so I think it's really important for us to be able to identify, understand and develop ways to cope and to be able to move forward with our art. So that doesn't hold us back.

She has presented and published on topics including bereavement, boundaries, burnout, compassion fatigue, and so much more. And I'm so excited to have Dr. Tara Fox on the podcast today. Hi, Tara.

Hello.

How are you?

I am doing good.

And just because it's part of our counseling code of ethics of always being represented correctly, I'm actually just an assistant clinical professor, so not associate yet. But yeah, it is great to be here. I am happy to come and share and talk about anxiety.

I think this is a really fun conversation as well as fun as talking about anxiety can be. But I think we have a lot of shared ways that we grew up. And so having these types of conversations with you are always really fun.

Yeah. And before we dive in on how you and I know each other, I do want to say for people trying to decide, am I going to listen to this?

Am I not going to listen to it? There is no shame about anything we're experiencing about anxiety, whether it's something you've had long term or it's just creeping up.

So just whatever you're feeling about this, I would encourage anybody to stay open and listen to the conversation. Because even if you don't have anxiety, I guarantee you, you know a few people that do.

And maybe it's your kids or your spouse and you might learn some things while you're listening today. So, Tara, do you want to tell everybody how we know each other?

And I believe we, if I had to guess how we actually met. My guess is one of us was playing guitar and the other person walked by and heard that.

And yeah, so that, that is how Megan and I met.

Yeah. And we had lost touch for a long time and we recently reconnected like just almost a year ago and have been staying in touch.

And so we have a lot of conversations like we're going to have today. And I think it's exciting for me. I have so many friends that are just such insightful people. So I get to share you publicly for a moment.

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, here's the thing is like I was diagnosed with ADHD in third grade.

I have dealt with anxiety my entire life, but I didn't get diagnosed with anxiety until my 30s. And you know, we talk about this often when we have our conversations.

But having an answer to a question like a diagnosis from a young age really did help me to learn how to navigate my ADHD and my neurodivergence in academic and professional settings. A lot of times we call that the ADHD mask.

But it did assist me in, I did take medication, so it did assist me in learning how to get back to homeostasis and then what to do with that. So lots of really good habits.

But, you know, not having an anxiety diagnosis till my 30s, that really was harder to swallow because I didn't have answers to those questions. I think it's very normal for, for people to say, you know, well, everyone has anxiety.

And while that's true, anxiety is, is really normal, I think when it starts to impact your life, then we need to look at it a little deeper. And I know we're going to get there, but that's just kind of a little background about why I want to talk about this topic.

It's, you know, first hand experience. I really do understand and, and think just knowing that we're not alone and that there's other people going through it too, that's so powerful.

And you mentioned the word homeostasis. What do you mean by that?

Yeah, homeostasis, like a baseline.

And so something that might be a myth about medication is that when we're talking about mental health medications, whether it's for depression or mood or anxiety, those aren't just like a quick fix, like it may return you back to an atypical baseline. So, for example, for me, adhd, the medication didn't fix my adhd. Right.

If I had learned habits that were contributing to my ADHD symptoms, taking medication for that didn't just fix my habits or my coping skills there, but it returned me back to an more atypical homeostasis or baseline to where the medications could help me to make better choices or different choices than what I had been making on my own.

Can that, the homeostasis, the baseline, can that look different for different people?

Absolutely.

Everyone's baseline is different because it depends on who they are, what their thought cycle cycles are like, situational and environmental stressors. So everyone's baseline looks a little bit different. And that's the thing is, you know, diagnoses, it's really not who you are as a person.

It's like I said before, it's just kind of an answer to questions that you've had. And so there's a lot of stigma around getting a diagnosis or being diagnosed with something.

And really, if we just view it as this is just an answer to some questions I've had about myself, that kind of removes the. The levity that sometimes we attribute to a diagnosis.

Yeah, I think that's so good. And I'll share our last conversation when we were talking about this podcast and I mentioned to Tara.

So we're talking about the podcast, and I mentioned to Tara, yeah, my counselor, like, a number of years ago, said she thought I had generalized anxiety disorder. But I don't think that's true. I think it's situational. And I asked Tara, you know, knowing me for so long and being a therapist, what do you think?

And she said, oh, you definite have that. And it was like, really? Why?

And it was really kind of mind blowing, because my therapist, I don't know why I didn't trust her with what she said, because she's a great lady and I've worked with her for a long time. But being able to talk to somebody who is a professional, who also knows me personally and has seen me, and we were able to talk through that.

And it really has been interesting because that was just less than a week ago. I think that we had that conversation and. And things have come up where I've kind of acknowledged that more.

And so I want to share this in case anybody who's listening kind of experienced this as we're talking. But one of the things that I started thinking about different experiences, like when we did live in Yosemite, and it was like living in a dream.

And it was so perfect and magical. And so my brain just started making things up to be stressed about.

You know, like, we would be driving down the roads, which for some people are scary, but they weren't really scary for me. But I would be realizing, like, that I was visualizing, like, oh, my gosh, the car going off the edge of the road and we're tumbling to our desk.

And there was no reason for me to be feeling that. And it was, like, happening a lot to where I had to develop some techniques to refocus my brain. And so now that I'm.

I've looked into it a little bit more, I'm like, oh, obviously, like, that's why my brain was doing that.

And had I known that from the beginning, I probably would have been able to identify it faster because it took me a little while to identify what was happening. But the thing that I found really helpful over the last week is that whenever I do feel anxious about something, I've immediately my.

I think to myself, okay, is this me or is this anxiety?

And just having that pause is so powerful, because if you can separate the feeling you're having from yourself or even kind of from your brain, in some ways, that has been really helpful for me reassessing, okay, is this worth this mental and physical energy that I'm putting into this, or is this a result of me being anxious? And so knowing these things can be really helpful. Tara, do you feel like there's ever a time when.

Because I know sometimes people are like, oh, a diagnosis is just, you know, you should. It just an excuse or whatever. How. How do you feel about whether or not getting a diagnosis is good?

Yeah. Well, and just to preface, I don't go around diagnosing friends or anything.

And Megan knows that we have direct conversations where we will ask each other direct questions of, like, what your opinion is. And so. But yeah, you know, here's the thing is if you're wondering, do I need the diagnosis?

I guess really the question is, what are you going to do with that diagnosis? So the reason why I needed the anxiety diagnosis in my 30s is because I was. I was asking to be put on medication.

And so I needed the diagnosis in order to get the medication. So that is why I ended up with an anxiety diagn diagnosis in my 30s. And the same was true whenever I was in third grade and diagnosed with ADHD.

Because, you know, back then, they did not want.

In the 90s, they did not want to diagnose girls with ADHD, you know, typically the hyperactivity manifests as impulsivity in girls and because of this, they aren't seen as behavioral problems in the classroom and therefore don't really warrant a diagnosis. So don't really warrant any accommodations for that.

But the reality is, is my neurodivergent brain was, was not to the level of an, of an atypical brain. In third and fourth and fifth grade and sixth, you know, I was a little delayed. I needed to learn things a little bit differently.

And the diagnosis help, the diagnosis at that point again helps me to get on medication, to get to back. Back to a homeostasis or a balance or an equilibrium so that I could make better choices and learn better habits.

And so again, the reason for that was so that I could get medication and also get accommodations in, in elementary school because that's really where nice when I struggled was elementary school. Once I got to middle school and my brain developed a little bit more, I really wasn't academically or learning delayed anymore.

I had caught up and like I was on medication and I was really able to succeed academically at that point, whereas I wasn't in elementary school. So the question really is, what are you going to do with the diagnosis? What do you want it for?

If you want it for medication, then yeah, that, that diagnosis is going to be mandated for that. But if you just want answers to questions, that's also an okay reason to seek a diagnosis.

And you also can have it and not get officially diagnosed for it if you are not needing any kind of medication for that. So it's not one of those things where you have to get the diagnosis. It just depends what, what would you do if you had one? What would it change?

And you and I had talked too about like when it becomes negative is when it becomes an excuse where, oh, I, I can't do that because of whatever, you know, and maybe there are situations where that is the reality currently. But whenever it's an excuse to just kind of be able to do whatever you want or disregard other people, that's when it becomes problematic.

So, yeah, and, and before we go on, I just want to remind people that this is such an important conversation because as artists and art business owners and we are going to talk about this in more detail, but it can really, if you have anxiety, it can really affect your ability to move forward or it can affect the way it feels moving forward.

And so this is such a huge conversation that really you're, if you have anxiety, your whole probably everything you do is steeped in that to some degree and being able to identify and, and see and work through that. So this is a topic about being an art business owner, about something that affects many of us.

And I do just want to reiterate that like Tara said, she doesn't, didn't like go around diagnosing me. I was kind of asking for a second opinion from a friend who has the knowledge because I was in denial about what had been said to me.

And so Tara, now that we've talked so much about anxiety, what is it really? What is anxiety?

Yeah, that's a great question. So there's definitely a difference between feeling anxiety and then having diagnosable anxiety. And so anxiety is a very normal stress response.

So when we are encountering a stressor and we get anxious or nervous, that's a normal response. But it's when it's persistent, it's when it's intense, it's when it impacts your ability to function in your daily life.

Whether that's at work, at home, around friends, you know, that's when we may be looking at some sort of an anxiety disorder. And there are multiple types of anxiety disorders.

So there's the generalized anxiety disorder, there's panic disorder, there's social anxiety disorder, there's phobias, separation anxiety disorder, obsessive compulsive disorder, and post traumatic stress disorder. And then there's also an adjustment disorder that has the specification for gist anxiety. Now adjustment means that it's a one time thing.

It's happened within the last six months and that's why it can be classified as adjustment. But if it persists past that six month time of like the event happening, then you're looking at more of an anxiety disorder.

If you're looking at a diagnosis wise.

Yeah.

And I looked up some stats before this and according to the Anxiety and Depression association of America, they said anxiety disorders are the most common mental illness in the United States. And I know mental illness, that phrase can kind of have a stigma to it.

But again, like I talked about with, you know, injury, that's kind of how we're looking at some of this. That. So it affects 40 million adults, which is 19.1% of the population age 18 and older every year. And many of them affect women more than men.

Yeah, yeah, I can definitely see that too. I think there's a lot of situations where maybe juggling multiple roles can definitely increase the likelihood of, of anxiety being present.

But there are many causes of anxiety which we can go into, which is the first thing That I think people think about is situational and environmental stress, which is kind of like something happens and I'm reacting to it to the degree that it warrants a diagnosis.

Which means that when I'm interfacing with, with a stressor, my anxiety is to the point where it impacts the way I would prefer to live my life again, whether at work or home or school or. Or socially, and across different modalities. So not just maybe you have a stressful job and you're only stressed out at work, but then you're.

Anytime you're home, you're fine. Like, that really wouldn't qualify.

Like it really has to impact you wherever you go in your life, whether it's socially or at home or at work or at school, you know, has to impact you on several modalities. So most people think about this situational or environmental. And again, that doesn't necessarily warrant an anxiety disorder either.

It really depends on, you know, is it just dealing with that stressor or is it elongated? Is it tend to trickle and cycle and come back around?

So that's probably the most common thing when people think of anxiety is it's situational, environmental. Right. But actually the most common cause of anxiety is going to be those genetic factors, you know, biological and genetic factors.

So genetic predispositions, chemical imbalances, brain structure, stress responses. So there are definitely personalities and people who have a lower tolerance to stress, and there are some that have a higher tolerance of stress.

And so that's just naturally built in. It could be learned from a parent, or it could just be passed on genetically.

So another really common cause of anxiety is going to be the psychological or cognitive factors. So cognitive distortion. So cognitive distortions are ways that we speak usually to ourselves that are a little bit hypocritical to.

To the grace and kindness that we extend to other people. So for example, examples of cognitive distortions would be all or nothing thinking. Mind reading.

Could you give us some examples of each of these as you're saying them? So like nothing thinking, like either oh, I'm a great artist or I'm like terrible.

Is that Absolutely. Yeah, that's. It's also like, it can be called all or nothing thinking or black and white thinking. Essential. Like there's only a binary answer. Right?

Like it's either all this or all that. There's no possibility that the answer lies somewhere in the gray. Right. So that's kind of that of. And that's a great example. I'm.

I'm really a good artist or I'M a terrible artist. Like either people love my work or they hate my work. There's no in between there. And that's that all or nothing or that black and white thinking.

Mind reading is the one that we go around where we try to pretend that we can read other people's minds and we know that they don't think very good about us. And so we are telling ourselves they're mad at me and how do you know? I just know.

Like that's kind of that mind reading, fortune telling is when we try to think that we can predict the future of this is what's going to happen. How do you know? I just know. Like that's kind of the fortune telling thing.

So there are a lot of different cognitive distortions and thought cycles that we take ourselves through.

And a big thing that I utilize in my practice is cognitive behavioral therapy, which is cbt, which essentially is our thoughts, whether negative or positive, create our belief systems, whether negative or positive, which dictate our actions and behaviors, whether negative or positive. And so those really that CBT is used to battle those cognitive distortions.

But another part of the psychological and cognitive factors is distress tolerance. So kind of what I was talking about with the biological of, you know, we may have a lower stress response level.

Maybe we aren't able to deal with stress as, as well as other people. And again, there's no right or wrong answer. Right.

If you find that you are a individual who struggles to interface with stress, that doesn't mean you're any better than someone who can, who can handle more distress tolerance. We are all built differently and it's all okay. But conditioning and attachment issues can also go into the psychological and cognitive factors.

And then the third one is actually what we talked about about the environmental and situational. That's actually about the third most likely cause is environmental and social factors.

So stress or trauma, parenting, modeling or feeling like we have a lack of support can also cause that anxiety to get in there. And then our next one is interactional and integrative perspectives. So this is like a biopsychosocial approach and looking at chronic stress.

So a biopsychosocial approach is different than like a medical model, where a medical model is looking at it like it like a disease and just looking at physical wellness. Right. Whereas like a biopsychosocial approach looks at your social, your background, your contacts, your family life.

It's looking a lot more layers of like the environmental factors that can be at play when we're talking about a diagnosis or some Side effects and symptoms and things like that. So that's kind of looking like a bigger picture. And then the last one is cultural and existential factors.

So societal norms, you know, in the United States we really like to push the busy is productive mindset.

And also imposter syndrome is big here with the cultural and existential factors and just existential dread of oh my gosh, I just don't want to do this right. We get really activated about it and we kind of can shut down. And so those are kind of the most common causes of anxiety.

And what you will most likely see.

See, yeah, you brought up so many good things to like as people. I hope that people are thinking, you know, do these things apply for me? And something that I, I note that I wrote down it.

Now this book is very dense, I will say it's very dense.

And I normally listen to books sometimes up to higher than two times the speed and I had to listen to it regular speed and often relisten to multiple parts of it. But it was very insightful. And it's the body keeps the score.

And as you were talking about, I was thinking about that book and something that was just profoundly amazing to me was that anybody, whoever you you are, the egg that created you was inside your mother while she was inside your grandmother's womb.

And so there's such a direct connection in some of these family traumas and things that we experience that are so closely connected and get passed down. So I highly recommend that book. I will admit that I skipped some of the traumatic stories because they are quite traumatic. And I, I those affect me.

But the book was very good.

The other thing I was thinking of as you were talking, because you were talking about you, you made, I don't remember exactly what you said, but you made some sort of statement about, you know, how people handle stress. And it's not good or bad, we're all different.

And that's something as we're listening to this because I think with anxiety, one of the ways it can often manifest is like self deprecation or lack of trust or self esteem and, and we will talk about this later as well.

But we all have strengths and weaknesses and there are strengths that come from that actually having anxiety, that there are things, benefits that you can get from, from that. And that whoever you can imagine that you think is just the best of the best.

I promise you that they have weaknesses that they are hopefully working on. But nobody is, nobody is perfect.

And so don't go around thinking that just because somebody doesn't have anxiety, they're better than you or that you can't improve yourself or trust yourself. What are, what are some signs and symptoms? And we know the causes, but what are some things that people might.

And feel free to give examples too so that people can really put themselves like identify. Oh yeah, I experienced that.

Yeah, I'll kind of explain it from the ground up. So we'll start down at the feet.

So fidgeting with the feet when you're sitting, bouncing a leg, bouncing a foot, pacing back and forth, really struggling to sit still or stand in one place. So that's kind of an example of anxiety in the feet. And then we can kind of go up to abdomen. So things like IBS can even be a side effect of anxiety.

Stomach issues, stomach cramps, heartburn, indigestion, shortness of breath, rapid heartbeat, breathing faster than we need to, kind of like hyperventilating a little bit, sweaty palms, maybe you, you know, sometimes we have habits where maybe you'll pick at your cuticles, migraines, headaches. There's a lot of, there's a lot of side effects and symptoms but those are kind of like just taking like a ground up approach.

But also the, the racing thoughts, mental fog, the cognitive aspect are signs and symptoms as well.

So it can be something that impacts your body like maybe nausea, upset stomach or dizziness, lightheadedness, or it can be a cognitive where it, you get so overwhelmed that you just want to shut down and that you want to get away from the stressor and you don't know how to deal and so you kind of evade it. And the problem with, with not ever circling back to deal with things is they don't just go away, they don't just disappear.

And so we have to really circle back and deal with stuff otherwise they're just going to shift, show up in other areas. You know, some might say they show up so that they can, you know, test you until you get it right type of scenario. Right.

Until we really figure out how to deal with it, they're going to keep showing up for us. But yeah, that's, that's just kind of an example. There's a lot out there. Procrastinating is also a cognitive side effect of anxiety.

Feeling irrational or irritable or emotional. Those can also be signs and symptoms of anxiety.

So there's a lot of things that, that can be considered a symptom of anxiety and stuff that we deal with every day. So if you're hearing me talk about this and you're Like, I do this, I do that, I do this.

Remember, we circling right back to where we started at the beginning. Not everyone who experiences anxiety or has, you know, symptoms, signs and symptoms of it warrants a diagnosis.

So again, you have to ask yourself, is this impacting my life in multiple domains? So, you know, work, school, home, social, to the point where I'm not able to do the things that I would do if I wasn't dealing with anxiety. Right.

So just because you kind of find yourself identifying with some of this doesn't mean you need a diagnosis. So I just kind of wanted to reiterate that. That.

Yeah. On the other hand, I wonder if you can help us parse through like maybe people are noticing that it's happening.

I, I think for myself, my experience was that I really disconnected from my body to deal with a lot of anxiety. And I still notice now that it takes me a long time to recognize when I'm in that anxious state.

And I think maybe just because it's been so normal, but it, it makes it so sometimes, like I'll, I will say often I don't slow down until I get physically sick and I will physically get sick.

I'll get a little cold or I'll feel bad for a couple of days and it's like my body has just is like I've tried to tell you and you wouldn't stop, so I'm making you stop. And, and that's really what it feels like. And, and then I also think, so there's that about not noticing it.

I also used to think of, you know, there was this quote that it's not the weight of the load you carry, it's the way you carry the weight, which is like a lovely sentiment, but also very harmful if taken way. And so how do we.

I don't know exactly the question I'm trying to ask you, but how do we differentiate between if we're numbing or like not recognizing, or we just think that we can carry the weight, that, that if we're feeling stress, we're not caring about it. I think there's, I guess what I'm saying there's a lot of ways that we either diminish, deny, or try to just muscle our way through.

And how do we identify when we're doing that?

Yeah, I think if, you know, I would identify myself as a high functioning ADHD and anxiety individual. And so because of that, I intellectualize things a lot, which means I pull it out of the emotional or how it's impacting my body.

Sometimes we call that like somatic, like how it's somatically impacting me. And so that is my go to is I tend to it kind of disassociate from the emotion and the body sensations.

And the reason, if I had to guess of why this is, is because I think that I was never really taught to pay attention to my emotions. And I think being ADHD and anxiety and dealing with anxiety my entire life, that really impacted what I deemed as baseline and normal.

I think I always was dealing with anxiety. So I, it, I didn't know any different. I didn't know it wasn't supposed to feel that way.

So I think that's why it was easier to ignore it because I just thought that was baseline and that was normal and I kind of equate that. So. I have been diagnosed with sinus induced migraine since I was 2 years old. So I've dealt with migraines the majority of my life.

And I think when you deal with migraines, how you interface with pain really is impacted as, as well and like what you deem like a baseline or normal pain.

And so I think that could kind of play into the factor two of why I like you have to be gifted with the sick fairy before I really will know I need to slow down or make changes in order to slow down.

Yeah, the. And I will put the list because you have this great list of different symptoms and signs and I'll put all that in the show notes.

But could you walk us through if you can think of an example for a way that some of this might affect an art business owner, like say somebody's their career is just getting started, they're starting to sell a little bit. How might this sort of anxiety show up in a way that affects them and their art making or their career?

Yeah, I think we can kind of start thinking like how, how does anxiety manifest in our body and what does that look like and how could that impact me professionally? So imagine that your body is a house. And you know, we have to have smoke detectors in the house. And smoke detectors are great.

They're designed to protect us from danger. You know, carbon monoxide poisoning fires smoke. Right. They're, they're there to assist when something truly threatening is happening.

You know, if a fire starts, there's the alarm should ring signaling us that it's time to take action. But when we have anxiety, our smoke alarms in our body are going to go off at everything.

Not just smoke from a fire, not just when something's foundationally not right. And we are in threatening danger, but with small things.

So the thing about a stress response is whether it's a big stress or little stress, our body is responding to that the same, like the same chemical process of responding to stress is the same no matter if it's a big stress or a little stress. And so when we are dealing with chronic or intense feelings of anxiety, the alarm in our body is overly sensitive.

So it's not only ringing if there's a fire or a threat or danger, but maybe just when someone is putting toast in the toaster. Right. Like it's, it's not going to just be when we are really threatened.

And typically what happens when we are responding to these stressors, these, this anxiety feeling, it's going to be one of four responses. So fight, flight, freeze or Fawn.

And I feel like most people have kind of heard the fight or flight, maybe freeze is new to them and maybe some of you absolutely haven't heard of Fawn. But there's four so fight, flight, freeze and fun.

And so fight is going to be maybe we feel rage, we feel anger, we feel like we want to bully or pick on intimidate, or maybe getting defensive.

Flight is going to be the panic, the worry, the rumination, perfectionism, freeze, disassociation, anger, feeling numb, feeling stuck, kind of feeling paralyzed and not being able to make choices. And then fawn is going to be the identity confusion, lack of boundaries, codependency or people pleasing behaviors.

And so breaking down how we can respond to the stress response, whether it's fight, flight, freeze or fawn can really help us to understand maybe where some of these things have come from. Whether it's boundary issues or people pleasing or getting defensive.

I always like to say we get defensive when we have heard a truth we weren't ready to hear at that point.

And Megan and I have talked about this before of we sometimes are presented with information in a time frame that we're not ready to absorb it and that's okay.

And then it circles back around and maybe it's later in different circumstances and we could hear the same information and maybe we are ready to absorb it at that point. And so if you're thinking to yourself, I had signs, I've had people telling me they think I have anxiety. I should have known.

Really the shoulda and coulda and woulda and the shame and the guilt and the blame of we should have known is not like helpful.

And so really giving yourself grace of maybe this is the timeline that you were ready to Absorb the information and being able to take it and move forward from that.

Yeah, I think I might have talked about this in my the last podcast, but it's kind of like when you're teaching a child algebra, you can't take a kindergartener and expect them to learn algebra. You have to walk them through the steps and our.

And if you've ever tried to help somebody with their personal development, you know, as a friend, not a therapist, you will see that too.

Eventually you get to the realization, like, I can tell this person, like the higher level, like noticing that awareness that I'm seeing for them, but until they are there, they just. They literally cannot it see it and bring it in.

And I think about that, like telling you, you know, my therapist telling me years and years before that I had this and me being like, no. And I just don't think that I was ready.

But now that I've done all the work that I have and now noticing that, I think that's probably part of why my brain's so fast to be like, okay, is this anxiety or is this me? But had I tried to do understand that back then, I just don't. I wasn't ready, you know, for it. And I don't know if that's like ego or what it is.

We're trying to protect ourselves, but part of it's just we have to get. We have to have certain experiences to get to the other experiences and knowledge.

And one of the things I thought of as you were talking about, first of. Well, actually, first of all, I am so surprised that perfectionism is in flight and not fight. But it makes so much sense now, like reorienting that.

That thinking, I would have thought that. But I see and I'm like, oh, yep, now I see that because that's definitely one of the things that I go to.

But I think a lot about a way in which this might show up for an artist is if they apply for a show or they put their work up for critique in some way and they don't get the positive feedback and reinforcement that they were hoping for. And then they get very upset and they stop making art or they blame about like these are things I've literally seen artists do.

I've seen artists send angry emails because they didn't get in. There's the fight right there. I've seen artists stop, totally stop making work completely. So the freeze, like they just can't do it.

And so you see all these things now. Is it normal to have an emotional reaction to getting a Negative. Of course it is.

But I think whenever, if we are not acting out of those places, we're able to identify, oh, I'm feeling this way. I'm going to do something more productive with this to help myself work, work through it, and then you're able to continue working.

I have, I. I have literally seen an artist stop making work for a year after they applied to something and got rejected. And that's so tragic.

So these things that we're talking about, it's so helpful to identify them and figure out how we can work through them, because they will hold you back.

And at very best case scenario, if they don't hold you back, you might feel like crap while you're doing the work because you're constantly worried or you're getting defensive or you're trying to be perfectionists or you're constantly struggling with no boundaries or all the things. So, like, maybe you're making progress. Sometimes I imagine, like, what is it like to not feel this way while doing these things? You know, And.

And I think as we work through that, we can start to get glimpses of that and lean into that. I feel like I'm rambling now, but.

But my point being is that I can literally see how this has affected me, but also I see how it affects some of our members and people who apply to shows.

And it might be that you're just afraid to begin with to even apply for a show, or afraid to put your work out there, or afraid to put your brush on the canvas or get that piece of leather out and start cutting it. You just can't even get to that point of creating the thing because you're afraid of failure before you even got started.

Yeah.

And I think that imposter syndrome, we kind of touched on that a little bit previously, but I think that's something that I definitely deal with and help students overcome because I teach future counselors. And so really helping them deal with imposter syndrome while they're in their practicum and internship semesters is important.

And the thing to keep in mind is that, you know, how do you get things done? How do you do things? How do you. How do you do a podcast? How do you feel confident, you do it nervous, you do it scared? Right.

That's a big battle is really remembering that just because someone is doing all these things doesn't mean they weren't nervous, doesn't mean they weren't scared to do it. They just did it. So that is the one thing is just do it nervous or do it scared.

And the other thing is to normalize the feelings of anxiety around it. Normalize, you know, dealing with confidence issues. Normalize it and know that you're not alone.

Because when we think that we're the only one dealing with something, it puts us on an island. And we were not put here to be on an island. We were put here for connection and compassion and kindness.

And so we need to extend that kindness to ourselves as well.

Yeah, there was.

There's a Buddhist proverb that I stumbled upon a number of years ago, and it really impacted me, and it said, your compassion is incomplete if you do not extend it to yourself. And that was really eye opening for me because I worked really hard to develop compassion for other people.

And I realized that I was not at all giving that to myself. And that may not look like what it would look like for someone else, but it, you know, I was expecting a lot more of myself than was reasonable.

Do you think that people with anxiety disorders tend to be more critical of themselves as a whole, or do you think that's just a normal human thing?

I think that because of the cognitive aspect of anxiety and how we can fall into those negative thought cycles and patterns, I do feel like the inner critic is probably more loud and outspoken in someone dealing with anxiety versus more of an atypical experience of just experiencing anxiety as needed and appropriately.

And so, yeah, I do feel like we can struggle more with that inner critic of what that inner critic sounds like, how often that inner critic is making their presence known. Right. And so something that can be effective when you.

If you're thinking to yourself, oh, I have an inner critic, there's a theory of orientation called family systems theory. And within that is kind of like internal family systems ifs and within ifs. A big part of ifs is parts work.

And so when we're thinking about parts, it's not thinking like we have different personalities, but we have different parts within ourselves, and they all serve a purpose. And so when we're thinking about that inner critic, we can say, what are the positives that that inner critic has done for me?

Like, what might that inner critic be trying to protect us from when it is activated?

And so trying to understand the role that our inner critic plays and can help us to kind of see how we might adjust it to be more helpful than harmful.

Yeah, I believe the author and artist writer's name is Julia Cameron, who did the Artist's Way, and she. Her first part of her book starts with an exercise about uncovering your inner critic and recognizing that it's there.

So that's really interesting connection how. And we talked about this a little bit, but were there any other ways where you want to talk about how anxiety can impact creativity?

Yeah, I mean, really, it's a double edged sword and we kind of talked about that, of how it can be, I don't want to say a blessing and a curse, but it can have benefits and it can have challenges to it as well. So it can range from feeling inspired to feeling inhibited. So when our anxiety is high, it impacts our thinking cycles, which we've talked about.

It can discourage creative risks, distract, focus, block flow states, or create blocks. And I think we've kind of touched on this a little bit before, not in this podcast, but just in our own conversations.

But, but when you are an artist or you are creative, there's a lot of risk that goes into that.

And if you are activated and feeling highly anxious, it's going to impact your desire or ability to think that you can tackle a risk, a creative risk. And so it may impact your art, the direction of your art, or what you choose to start.

Or maybe you feel like you don't want to start something because you're nervous about the color scheme or what you planned out or the show that you're creating it for. So it could make you risk adverse, which could really impact your artistic expression and what you're wanting to do.

But when anxiety is managed, and when I say managed, I don't automatically mean medication managed.

I mean we're managing it through coping skills, medication, if it's necessary, you know, whatever we're needing to do to manage it, it can act as a muse, it can spur motivation, it can enhance our perception, and it can challenge our existing thoughts because we have such a presence of inner critic.

That inner critic can also help us to be objective when looking at things and so that we can make decisions based off of, you know, what we think is best instead of kind of tying our emotions to it. So it can be a positive too.

Do you have any tips for conversing with the inner critic in a way that's more useful?

Yeah, I think anytime we're talking about our inner thoughts, something to keep in mind is that we have thousands upon thousands of thoughts a day. We literally are jumping from thought to thought to thought to thought.

And if you're neurodivergent or, or identify as being more anxious, leaning, you're on the higher end of the thoughts every day. And those thoughts add up. So everything really starts there. With our thinking.

So when we allow ourselves to go down like a negative thought rabbit hole or cycle or you know, hurricane or however you want to visualize when your thoughts are going into a, a worry or anxious direction, that starts to cultivate belief systems of well, I can't do this or it's not enough or no one is going to want that. And so that takes it from a thought to a belief system. And once we believe something to be true, it's really difficult to change that belief system.

And if we're not going back and changing the thoughts and so utilizing the inner critic of, you know, we are used to having that voice, but maybe giving it a different voice, like how can we see the positives? How can we look in a different direction? How can it benefit us? How can we listen without feeling like it's emotionally attacking us? Right.

And so really trying to reframe or to take a step back and re examine what's going on. It can be a tool for that. You know, anxiety helps us with productivity and motivation. It can turn our worries into to do lists.

We can be get a lot done. We can foster empathy, it can increase self awareness, it can enhance our problem solving skills.

It can give us the ability to read a room because we have to read ourselves so often. So we can have increased situational awareness and more intuitive nature about people and situations.

So anxiety can do a lot for us that isn't just, you know, what most people would think. And so it doesn't always have to be a negative thing.

So remembering that it does serve a purpose and that it can assist us and also that you're not alone and it can be managed as well.

Yeah. So let's talk about the management part. What like coping skills and treatment, what is that going to look like for people?

Yeah, so it really depends on what people are going to want to do. I always say that everyone needs to be in therapy with a licensed professional counselor.

So you can utilize websites like Open Path Collective or Psychology Today and you can find a licensed counselor in your state. You can see that counselor in person or via telehealth.

The telehealth option is great because it means you don't have to just look at people in your area. You can look at people who are maybe in a bigger city. You'll have have more options to choose from. And so that's really neat.

And so if you're going the counseling route, that could look like cognitive behavioral therapy, that could look like acceptance and commitment therapy, maybe exposure or behavioral therapy, dialectical behavioral therapy, relational cultural theory, mindfulness. So when we say mindfulness, like stress reduction, non judgmental awareness.

So kind of looking at the inner critic but not getting judgmental about it.

Meditations, again, it could be medication or it could be lifestyle interventions like making sure we're getting sleep, we're having some sort of activity or movement, breathe, breath training and social interactions can also impact that. So there's a lot of things that we can do to treat anxiety. Coping skills is a big one.

The way I like to explain coping skills is anything can be a coping skill, but it doesn't mean it's a positive coping skill. So I always say that there are positive coping skills and negative coping skills.

And the difference is really the intent behind why we are choosing it.

So if we are choosing to do something so that we can take a breath, get back to homeostasis, do our coping skill, and then come back and tackle whatever it is going on, then that's a positive coping skill. But if we are choosing a coping skill to run, numb, avoid and not come back to the issue, then that becomes a negative coping skill.

So while something as simple as taking a nap can be a great reset for people if they're coming back to tackle the issue, or it can be a great avoidance tactic to get away and to disconnect and disassociate and not come back and deal with it.

So there are different types of coping skills, diversions, social, cognitive, physical, limit setting and breathing exercises, grounding techniques and other mindfulness practices.

So there are different types of coping skills, whether it's maybe it's writing, drawing, painting, listening to music, taking a walk, watching TV or movie, cleaning or organizing, reading, or just being out in nature. So those are kind of the diversions. Think of it like you're, you're getting out and doing something else, or you're shifting your attention.

And then there's also the social, talking to someone you trust, being around positive people, serving someone in need, connecting with an animal, encouraging others.

And then there's the cognitive part, you know, being flexible with ourselves, being grateful and graceful with ourselves, setting goals, focusing on our strengths.

The physical going to be activity or exercise, sleep routine, schedules, grounding techniques will also fall into that, like progressive muscle relaxation, reframing, cool water on our skin, things like that. Limit setting. So prioritizing what's important, using assertive communication, scheduling time to recharge, setting boundaries.

We can do breathing exercises like breath focus, deep breathing, diaphragmatic breathing, purse lips breathing or coherent breathing. And so sometimes seen as Box breathing. So you think of a box and you breathe in, hold, breathe out, hold, and kind of think of it like a box.

And you just go really slow and deliberate. Or they're the ones where you inhale for four, hold until seven, and then exhale at eight. And so you can do breathing tactics like that as well.

And then the mindfulness, drinking a cup of tea, meditation, stretching, unplugging from technology. There's a lot of things that we can do to assist, assist with coping skills.

But really going back to what's our intention of utilizing the coping skill? Do we intend to go back and deal with it, or are we looking to escape?

Yeah, I think. I wonder if maybe you and I can share what strategies we've used that we found most helpful.

Like maybe the top three or four, just so people can see kind of how they look in practice.

So, for example, one of the things that I started doing, and I'm excited to see it on the list because I was going to ask you if it would be something, but I noticed that I was never pausing to acknowledge what I had accomplished. I was just immediately jumping to the next. So I started trying to be mindful about celebrating my accomplishments.

And I actually have a day on the calendar every year now at the beginning of the year, or. Yeah, beginning of the year, where I literally celebrate my biggest accomplishments.

And so taking the moment to do that, because it takes my body and my brain out of this spiral of constant. Got it, got it, got it. To. Oh, look at what I did. It's amazing. We won't think we did anything.

We could have, like, had the most successful year ever, but in our anxious mind, not think that we did anything because we were immediately going to the next thing. Visualization has been really helpful for me.

So, like, when I was talking about living in Yosemite and, like, I would realize suddenly I was imagining the car careening, you know, down the edge of the canyon. I started visualizing the car driving into the driveway, and it's amazing how helpful that was just to.

And I did it every time without being judgmental. I would just say, oh, I'm doing that thing again. And then I would imagine the car driving into the driveway, and it made it stop.

Eventually, I stopped doing that at all.

And the other thing that was really helpful for me because it was a way of me connecting with my body and being more aware of my body, was doing yoga, and I did slower yoga. That's more relaxive. And I know there's a name for it. I don't know what that is, but it made me realize how tense my body was.

So, for example, anxiety driving. I'm a safe driver, but I get a lot of anxiousness around driving.

And so I would notice in traffic that my shoulders would be up to my ears because I'm so tense. And yoga is what made me notice that my shoulders were so tense. And so those are four things that I've done.

And I will say at one point I did take medication for my anxiety and I found it immensely helpful. Sometimes I think about maybe doing it temporarily again just because. And I wasn't even seeing a therapist at the time, but I.

My brain was out of that spiral of anxiety loop and I was able to experience the, the thing where I really noticed like, oh, wow, was I get really, again, with drivers, I get really frustrated with people who don't follow the rules and cut you off and are just rude. And I, I would be angry all the way home because somebody cut me off.

And when I was on medication, this person cut me off and I just thought that was rude. And then I like, went on and I was like, what is this what it's like for normal people?

And so it was helpful to experience what that felt like because like you said earlier, if this is our normal, we don't really know what it feels like outside of that normal. And it. Experiencing that normal, especially in. Combined with therapy that's helping you to create better patterns can be incredibly helpful.

Yeah, absolutely. I think for me, exercise has always been a really good tool.

I have had the habit of when I'm going through something extremely stressful, I would tend to pick up a hobby. I don't know how that has always happened in my life. So when I was going through my doctorate program, I decided I was going to be a triathlete.

Great timing. Right.

And that I was going to get into distance biking and distance running and during those times ran a marathon, lots of half marathons, did a half ironman, lots of activities. Right.

And so I know that I naturally will choose the distraction of just getting busy and, and doing something physical, whether that's working out or, or something else. But again, it's that intent.

If I was doing those things and not coming back and dealing with it, those would have not been considered really super helpful. But so definitely a distraction. I love that.

I also really love to just have, you know, couch rot days where I can just sit and reset and watch stuff on TV and cuddle with my dog and just kind of mentally check out, like, mentally turning my brain off. Because when you're deal with anxiety or you're diagnosed with anxiety, your brain is always going.

And so it's really difficult to turn the brain off. So anything that you can do to turn your brain off and give yourself a break is really important.

Having good friends to be around to where you don't feel like you're always in your head, kind of, you're able to get out of your head with them is really good. Having a work life balance, or more of a work life balance has really helped me too, with my anxiety. Because you're right.

When we're really caught up on productivity and to do lists and checklists, we can just go from thing to thing to thing. And if we always think we're on fire, we don't ever know that the fire is put out. And so we, yeah, we.

We forget all that we've done because we are already moved on to the next thing. And so really taking the time to be like, I did that. That was great. It was really good. I'm proud of myself. That's important. So I really. I like that.

Yeah. It's kind of funny.

The podcast that I released last month was about working with yourself and not against yourself, and I didn't have anxiety in my mind. But it's so funny how many of these things I kind of talked about because. And now I. For. Oh, one of the things I talked about was last week.

So let me pause for a second. I'm thinking about triggers as we're talking about things that help us. Also, there's things that trigger us.

And unfortunately, probably we can't make a list because it's going to be different for everybody. But I noticed for me, I used to approach menial office work tasks as if it was an emergency, not in my head, but my body was all ramped up.

And when I began noticing that, I started like, like calming down.

But last month I was doing some planning and I let myself really lean into that anxious energy and like, oh, I gotta get this and really be in my head. And it was all these things moving parts. And normally I would have for a year. I would have said, okay, I feel that energy. I don't want.

I'm gonna pause and come back to this more grounded. But I didn't do that and it triggered anxiety for me.

And so I bring that up again in this podcast to say, as we're thinking through these things, it would be worth noticing when that comes back up for you so that you can make little. I don't know, I'd literally imagine little red or yellow flags, like a little, you know, like a golf flag.

Like, hey, hey, you better watch out here, because if we ignore that, we end up getting, like, we might have done all this work, but then we end up putting ourselves back in that. And you can correct me if I'm wrong here, Tara, because I'm not a therapist, but it.

It seems to me like our brains create these predictable patterns and they're shortcuts so we don't have to think so hard. But when we have these shortcuts for anxiety, it's easy to get back into that loop.

So maybe we've kind of reprogrammed our brain to function different, but, oh, we did it again. And now we've practiced that for 30 or 40 years of our lives, and we're right back at it.

Yeah, absolutely. There's so many things that we do that. Because it's based off how we grew up, what we were taught, what we've been doing.

And, you know, I'm about to turn 40 myself at the end of the year.

And so thinking about four decades worth of learned behaviors, it takes time to navigate out of that and to learn new patterns and learn new skills and new tools. But just because it's going to take time doesn't mean it's not worth pursuing or not trying.

But, yeah, we absolutely will fall back into what's comfortable. And. And comfortable doesn't always mean good. It just, you know, we can be comfortable with uncomfortable things.

We can get comfortable in high stress environments, but that doesn't mean it's a good thing to be comfortable with. So that's something to keep in mind, too, is that comfort isn't always.

And comfort zones aren't always a good thing because sometimes we're comfortable just with what we know.

Right?

What we know.

It feels safer than what we don't know. Something that. Else that. I thought about this and I. I've thought about this a lot, but is the wisdom of ancient practices and whatever that it.

There are many ancient practices, whether it's prayer, yoga, meditation, all these things are ancient practices. And there's now science that shows that these things affect people. You know, like meditation changes the quality of the white matter.

I believe in your brain, you know, prayer is another form of visualization. It can be very grounding. And so there. And. And yoga, you know, there's all these things that.

So I bring that up to say, whether you practice it from a religious, spiritual perspective or just you practice it from the fact that there's wisdom in doing these things. Those things can be helpful. And it's something that even our ancient ancestors understood that, that this was beneficial to them.

So those can be really good. And the other thing I wanted to talk to you about was how to pick a good therapist.

If somebody's listening and they're like, okay, I do need some therapy. First of all, I want to remind everyone there is help out there for anxiety, depression, suicidal ideations, anything you can, there is help.

You aren't and you're not alone. You're. There are a lot of people in the same boat as you.

But I know I have experienced some therapists that were terrible and I have experienced some therapists who are worth their weight in gold. And I wonder if you have any tips for either picking or identifying.

Like if somebody gets in a therapist's office, how do they know this is a good fit for me?

Yeah. So there are tons of, of information I can share here, so I'm going to try to pare it down so it's not super overwhelming.

But I again, the, the websites I mentioned before, Open Path Collective and Psychology Today, both, both of those are really great. If you have insurance or you do not mind paying out of pocket costs.

Psychology Today is for you because you can search based off your insurance, you can search based off of specialty areas, treatment modalities they utilize. So like what their theoretical orientation is, specific diagnoses that they work with, populations they work with, you can read their profile.

So that's really good in that regard. And Open Path Collective is, is really good if you're looking for something with a sliding scale.

So that's something that might be a little bit more affordable out of pocket costs or things like that. So those are two really good websites that you can utilize to search.

But when searching, you want to find someone that you think is going to support you in your journey. Like what it is, what is it that you're trying to work through? Because counselors are not there to, to give you advice.

You know, we do not give people advice. We are not professional advice givers. We are thinking like journeymen.

Like we are there to partner with you on your journey and your goals and to assist you getting there and be objective in that and to assist you in navigating what it is that you're wanting to work through in counseling and sometimes that, that stuff in the present and sometimes that stuff in the past.

But I would recommend scheduling a consultations call, just a, like a 10, 15 minute phone call before you book with a counselor just to see if it's a good fit, because you want it to be a good fit on both ends. You want it to be a good fit for you and you want it to be a good fit for them. So I would say do your due diligence.

Maybe even if you're in an area where you're like, I want to go to someone in person, maybe word of mouth, you know, if, if anyone recommends somebody.

But also know that if you get in a scenario where you're starting counseling with someone and you do not feel like it's a good fit, or you do not feel like that they are going to be able to help you, or you do not feel like you're being heard, it is okay to step away from that and find a different counselor.

Yeah, that's great advice. Don't waste time with somebody if they don't feel like a good fit because there are, I promise you, are there really good therapists out there? So.

Well, thank you for sharing all your advice and expertise, Tara.

You're so welcome. It was so much fun. I'm so glad that we could do this.

Yeah.

And if you are listening today's conversation about anxiety and it brought up something personal for you, or you recognize some of these experiences in your life, know that you don't have to navigate it alone. Speaking with a licensed counselor in your state can make a meaningful difference in understanding and managing anxiety.

You can find a qualified counselor through trusted directories like Psychology Today or Open Pass Collective, which offer affordable counseling options. If you ever feel your anxiety is becoming overwhelming and impacting your daily life, please reach out to a professional for support.

Help is available and management is possible. Thanks for joining us once again on Calgary Artists of America's podcast.