Hello pod! We are midway into Women’s History Month or as I’m calling it, BLACK Women’s History Month! We’re continuing our series giving our flowers to Black Directors!

Tonight’s episode is about Nia DaCosta, the director behind The Marvels, Hedda, the 2021 remake of the horror classic, Candyman, Little Woods, and a recent release, 28 Years Later: The Bone Temple.

Our guest tonight, from our Sinners: Black AF and Oscars Reactions episodes, is Brianna Milon, a published author, communications professional and model who blends creativity and connection in everything she does. With a background in media, public relations, and storytelling, she’s passionate about using her voice and presence to inspire and uplift others.

You can follow her on Instagram here: https://www.instagram.com/suunnybri

Wherever you’re listening from, hit that subscribe button and if you liked tonight’s episode, please give us a 5-star rating, share this episode and leave a comment to let us know what you liked the most! Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, & Threads.

Visit ourvoicesproject.com and sign up for our newsletter for more information about what we do. We’ll be handing flowers to another Black woman director who we should be talking about. Of course, you won’t know until the show premieres so make sure you subscribe!

Chapters:

01:38 - Exploring Nia DaCosta's Impact on Storytelling

06:24 - Exploring Complex Characters in Adaptations

17:41 - The Complexity of Hedda's Character

26:13 - Exploring the Marvels: A Deep Dive into Female Representation

35:28 - Representation and Complexity in Marvel Films

35:34 - Exploring Representation in Marvel's Ms. Marvel and Captain Marvel

41:44 - Analyzing the Social Commentary in Candyman

49:56 - Exploring the Themes of Identity and Race in Film

54:16 - Discussion on Character Complexity in Cinema

Mentioned in this episode:

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Our Voices Project - Land Acknowledgement

Nights and Weekends

Check out Nights and Weekends on Lunchador! https://feeds.captivate.fm/nightsandweekends/

Hello pod. We are midway into Women's History Month, or as I'm calling it, Black Women's History Month.

We're continuing our series Giving our Flowers to Black Directors. I'm your host Jackie McGriff and if this is your first time listening and or watching this, the podcast welcome to Representation in Cinema.

We talk about the films that center Black, Brown and Indigenous voices as well as on the film industry itself.

I'm not only your host, but also the founder, director and co producer of Our Voices Project, a production company that shares the stories and lived experiences of Black Brown Indigenous peoples through visual storytelling and truth telling.

We are community engaged filmmakers who firmly believe that you cannot center the stories of Black Brown Indigenous peoples without also being in community and in solidarity with them. If you're watching this on YouTube, hit that subscribe button and the little bell to get notified about new episodes as they drop.

If you're listening on your preferred podcast platform, also hit the follow button. Rate us 5 stars if you like what you hear and leave a comment to let us know your thoughts about any of the things that we bring up in this episode.

Before I get into some background about Nia DaCosta, I'm going to introduce our guest tonight returning to the podcast, Briana Milan, a published author, communications professional and model who blends creativity and connection in everything. With a background in media, public relations and storytelling, she's passionate about using her voice and presence to inspire and uplift others.

Welcome back, Bri.

Hey, thanks for having me.

Yes, of course. So onto Nia dacosta Nia dacosta is who you get when you let the blurds cook.

Because when you look at her work, you can see the handiwork of someone who genuinely loves storytelling. Nia DaCosta is a Harlem born filmmaker for whom storytelling was always a part of who she was and is at her core.

In interviews she talks about how she was always writing poetry, short stories, novels, constantly building worlds and trying to understand the people inside them. Her path to directing also reflects that same curiosity about storytelling.

She studied film and drama in London and early in her career she studied as a production assistant on sets for filmmakers like Steven Soderbergh, Steve McQueen and Martin Scorsese. Watching these directors run their sets taught her something important, that the culture of a film sets set starts with the director.

The respect, the collaboration and the energy.

Her curiosity is the common thread that runs through all of her work as a director, from Candyman to Marvels to Hedda, she's consistently drawn to characters who live on the margins. Her characters are complex, messy, making questionable decisions and often isolating themselves or driven to ostracization by those closest to them.

But the brilliance of DaCosta is in her calling us out, or calling us in, rather we, the audience, being too quick to judge a character rather than seeing the full picture, sitting with the context and looking within ourselves.

It's a lesson that we can and must take repeatedly as a society where social media often drives a lot of the conversation, reducing it down to passionate sound bites and and hot takes, while leaving very little room for nuance. Da Costa's storytelling allows her characters to be fully human in all of their complexities, imperfections, and bad behavior.

DaCosta herself refuses to be put into a box, exploring all of this across a variety of different genres, horror, thrillers and comic book films. She does all of this while also wrapping the story into social commentary.

And that matters because the best storytelling asks us to interrogate the systems we live in, the assumptions we carry, and the ways in which we move throughout the world. Social commentary in film creates space for conversations that we might otherwise avoid.

And it reminds us that the stories we watch are often reflections of the realities we're living in. That is why we're giving Nia DaCosta her flowers. If you haven't already watched her films, we highly recommend that you do so.

All right, so with that, we're going to dive into three of her films. Just so you know, we're getting into spoilers, so you have been warned. All right, so starting with Hedda.

So this is a film starring Tessa Thompson, who she often works with, finds herself torn between the lingering ache of a past love and the quiet suffocation of her present life. This is a retelling reimagining of Henrik Ibsen's classic play of the same name, Hedda Gobbler.

So, Bri, let's get into your initial reaction to this film.

Yeah. One, I love Tessa Thompson. So immediately I was there for her. And it starts off, I believe, with, what is it? She's being interrogated.

Yes.

And as soon as you see that, I'm like, oh, somebody died. And my boyfriend who watches with, he's like, how do you know someone died? I'm like, she's being questioned by the police, smoking a cigaret.

Looks like day after situation. Oh, yeah, it's very evident, like, someone has perished. Okay. So. And it just. It really does.

They do a really good job of making you think, like, I need to understand her.

Yes.

You know, and I think that I got that very early on, knowing I knew this was going to be a complex woman. And that. And the movie definitely played into that. We get so many different layers of Hedda over the next two hours.

And I really enjoyed getting to know what we talked. We said. You said Nia DaCosta often has complicated characters. And it's like, yes. Every single movie, I'm like, can I actually root for you?

Right.

Like, I've always rooting for everybody black, but, like, can I actually root for you? Because you are making some decisions. You are not a girl's girl.

Lots of. Ooh. She. She definitely proves that she is not a girl's girl.

Any stretch of the imagination. Not at all.

Oh, my gosh. She. So had you seen the play before that it's based on?

No. Okay. Yeah.

So. So there are some. There are some creative differences, of course, that she takes as you do. Right. Going from medium to medium with the film.

But, I mean, it's pretty true, too. It's very true to the character herself, because throughout. So I'd seen the play, and it is very.

She's very much that, like, making all of these decisions that are just, like. It's her way, of course, of, like, holding onto this power. She's a master manipulator, if anything.

And so throughout the play, that is exactly what you're asking is like, can I still root for this woman? Because, like, listen, we're here for women's rights as well as women's wrongs, but, like, there is a limit.

There is a limit to how much I can root for you. And it's like. And I. And I don't know if it's because of the actress that is playing them, because it is a very fine line. Right?

So I'm like, first of all, in real life, like, if you are being manipulated, you know you're being manipulated. You. You're like, no, this is unforgivable. You're cut off from them.

You're watching someone on screen, though, who is either on screen or on stage, right.

That you're like, I don't know if I should be rooting for this person, because I actually kind of want to be here right now, but also not really, because that's terrible. Right. It's like. Right. It's like this. And so. And I think as far as writing her, you know, as.

As far as, like, adapted screenplay goes, like, this is Nia Dasa, like, kills it, in my opinion. And. Because the person I saw, you know, in a play was, if it's Rita, is it Rita Wilson? I'm gonna have to look it up. Or Ruth.

Ruth Wilson, who also played Alice in Luther. For anyone who is listening or watching, if you've watched that series starring Idris Elba. Yeah.

Alice is a beloved character by fans, and Ruth Wilson does an incredible job with that.

So I had seen her in this play, and again, I'm like, I don't know if it's this, if it's because it's the actress who's playing or it's because she's just doing a fantastic job of kind of, like, you know, overstepping that line and then stepping back, you know, constantly, like, playing with the line, I think is a really. I think. I think it might be.

It might be both of those things, but I feel like the way in which Tessa Thompson, you know, approaches that character is stunning.

So when I first saw it, I. What is it? You know, soon after, Amazon, of course, recommended the original of some sort.

And that made me think, okay, was this role originated by a black woman or. Right. No.

Right.

Okay.

That's the other creative license that she takes it. Yeah.

Right.

At this time, women don't have the right to buy a house. They can't have a bank account. They can't have a credit card, and they have very little agency. And I think she looked.

She looked for ways where she could employ her. Whatever she did have to her situation. And I think another liberty. Right, is that they make the love interest a woman. Yes.

Right.

Or her past love interest a woman, which, first of all, as a queer woman, I'm always here for the gay and anything. So that was just. I. That was a huge surprise for me. Wasn't expecting that going into the film. But then the actress who plays her.

Yes.

Is just stunning in her portrayal of that woman.

Yes. So Nina Haas. Nina was in Tar playing the love interest of. I'm gonna get it. I'm gonna get it. She was in tar. And her performance, she's a.

She's a supporting actress in that role, much like she is here.

Cate Blanchett.

Thank you. I don't know why. It's. I'm like, my head in my head, my brain kept saying, Gwyneth Paltrow. I'm like, no, that's not who that is.

Thank you.

She plays the partner to Cate Blanchett's character in the movie Tar. I thought she was great in this too.

I thought she. What is it? The scene where she goes into the gentleman's room.

Right.

And she has to convince them that she's right for the job. Cause she's up for this professor job, which Hedda's husband is also up for.

Right, right.

So that creates the. One of the biggest tensions going on.

And then she goes into the parlor room and she starts serving them and giving it to them and just owning that space. But so we have these huge high moments that I. What is it? Cause she had.

She had spilled the water or something on her before, so she had gone into the space with her breasts, essentially, like right out.

Pretty much, yeah.

Okay. At that point it had dried, so it was a little tasteful, but it was still.

But I enjoy the liberties taken because it's such an awesome thing to see play out. Because she takes them. She takes them in, she convinces them, like they're hanging on by the edge of her word.

And her sex appeal plays a huge role in this scene as well as her mind. I think it's such a nice juxtaposition to see both of them kind of playing hand in hand. Cause it wasn't.

If it was just sex, they wouldn't have listened to her.

Right, right.

It was. They at one point actually started to respect her.

Yeah.

But then you start to see that it's kind of a pinnacle and then there's a fall down.

Yeah, yeah.

And I think it plays into again, like, Nia loves herself some complicated women and she just. To go from this pedestal that the men just kind of let her paint herself on to falling within like five minutes.

And the thing is, is that what adds to that. So for context, what also adds to that is her being super vulnerable.

Not only just because, like, she's in a male dominated field and she's having to prove herself, but then also the fact that Hedda, knowing that she has her former lover. Right. Has sworn off of alcohol. Right. She's on this path to being straight and narrow.

Like, she knows that, you know, if she starts drinking, which is also true to. Of Course, the play is like, driving her back into, like, this very dangerous place that she does not want to be. Right?

And of course, she's at a party where she's trying to make an impression. So now being forced to, like, be in a room where there's already men who don't take you seriously and you're also been like, drenched with water.

Right? She's also a little tipsy, right?

And after, after not wanting to do that in the first place or being in that position, now she's facing all of this and it all, like, really unravels again because Hedda is. There's, there's all this tension. There's. There's the fact that she brought her girlfriend to there.

There's still obviously feelings there, you know, that Hedda has. But then also not having ownership of the situation, not having control of the situationship, she immediately has to assume that.

And so she's doing everything within her power to make sure that again, her love interest is basically beholden to her. Like, they're dependent on her. It's.

It's sick.

But then you're also like, damn, I could. If I had those. Like, I'm like. And I don't know if you thought this at any point. I was like, if I had those kind of skills, I would use it for good.

Right? For good. Mostly. Maybe I'm like, you know, you start, like, I'm starting to question myself. I'm like.

But like, I see if I had those powers of persuasion, though, like, I could definitely use it for good. But I don't know. Maybe I don't know what you're thinking, but let me know your thoughts.

I think the power of persuasion blesses the wrong people sometimes, but I absolutely think I would use it to my advantage in that world. What else do they have?

Right?

Right. Like, they don't have any. They can't find any social cap outside of social capital. There's no financial power, there's no ruling power.

Like, they have no control over the things they own in their lives, and it only comes down to having a husband. So now you've even introduced a person who has said men are invalid because she doesn't date them.

Right?

So I don't need you in order to have this life and have these things. Like, I can provide them for myself and my wife, you know, so they also already feel intimidated. But of course I.

It's like, it's so sad to think that this woman would have handled that situation perfectly if not for being coerced to Drink by our heroine, who is just a ball of energy, man. I think I like her in such a convoluted way.

You know, it is, man.

Um, I think Hedda really just. She makes choices that make you double. Like, double back. Like, why would you do that?

But at the same time, you're like, oh, but you're creating such a mess. That's so nice to watch burn. And like, it's a perfect mess. But it. I think Tessa really takes that role and makes it her own, to be quite honest.

Right. Yeah. I think the key. A little bit of what? Well, we're both saying, like, before.

I think a key to that is, like, you have to have an actress who, number one, commands the room wherever they are. Right. Someone who has that kind of, like, authority that can really command a role. But then also someone who is also like you.

Like enough that you may or may not, like, let it slide. But because you also see the kind of control that. That she holds over people. You almost respect it in a way. Right.

Because they're dumb enough to get controlled,

dumb enough to get control. But then also, too, it's also like, you also have this context of it being the 50s and women also not having. Right. A lot of power.

So, like, whatever power they can get, especially if it's over. If it's. If it's over men, great. But then you also add in this fact that it's. But it's a woman, it's another woman that she's doing.

It just adds to the.

But also it's another woman she sees doing what she couldn't. Right. So it's a woman who was able to, you know, she knew she was queer and she lived her life as such.

And a woman who was not afraid of taking up her space, no matter how uncomfortable people around her may be. And I think she's jealous. I genuinely think Hedda is jealous of the fact that this woman left her and excelled. Right. She didn't burn.

She didn't crash and burn. She actually is up for the same job her husband wants. So it's almost like you would.

No matter what, you would have been with the person who got this job.

Yes.

You know, type of situation. And I think that she yearned for that kind of freedom that her ex partner had.

Yeah, for sure. Something else that I want to talk about. There was a. There was a. There was definitely like a mood switch or like a. Like a. Like a shift in the film.

I think I kind of held my breath the moment. Oh, gosh, it was the moment where she, she hide, she hid. Like the book, the manuscript or whatever, right? And then they all go out, right?

They go for a swim, right? And she loses it. Or it will. She. She loses. Or she thought. She thinks she's lost it. And then the girlfriend. Right, the girlfriend.

And then she hid, she hides. Oh gosh, I think I'm trying to try and remember. She had a. Hides. Hides it.

And so she's like, Nina's character is like basically losing, losing it and everything that she's lost it. And then we get towards, like not towards the end, I'd say around the middle.

Or maybe, or maybe it's towards the end, um, but that she's now trying to convince her husband to like burn the manuscript. So it's like gone forever. I think. Like I, at that moment I just kind of went, oh my God.

Like that's really something you can't come back from. Like you are. You're kind of condemning this woman, right? Like to. She doesn't get this job, right? Her livelihood, her future.

Like, what does, what does she have next? And after she's already climbed herself up from her rock bottom, right? So we.

And Hedda is fully aware of what this woman has went through, the struggles that she faces, and she still chooses to do the most selfish thing I think someone could choose to do in this situation. And it is at that point that I'm like, girl.

Well, that. Oh, that's what I was gonna say. It was like, it's even before that, before that happens. This is what kicks the.

This off is when she tells her she doesn't love her. Like Heda hears, she doesn't still love me. What? Of what? I can't. There's, there's nothing else here. Like, maybe if she loved her, she would.

I don't know. I don't know what would have happened, right?

Cuz, like, is she just mad that this person isn't under her control anymore, you know? Or is it really feeling the loss?

Is it really feeling the loss or

is it just like, oh, this means I can't control you anymore, so how can I still control you?

Exactly.

And it's the only thing she has is burning that manuscript. That is the only thing she can do to hurt her if she doesn't love her anymore.

Right?

So Hedda, you know, I just, I think she was such a dynamic character and really made you question so much during that time as you're watching. But Baby Girl was not a girl's girl. She was not. And I just.

And Also, I think to let your jealousy be so strong, you know, that you now push out another flame. That during a time when it's nearly impossible for a woman to create, to achieve those feats, to excel at men's behest.

Right.

And to snuff that out, it didn't feel like there was hesitation. It felt very much like she knew what she wanted to do and did it.

That. And then to create tension between her former lover and her now girlfriend. To also create tension. And that. There's just. There's so many layers.

There's. At one point, like, there's a. There's someone at the party, right? So Hedda's seated, and then sitting right next to her is another woman who is.

Who kind of sees this look on Heather's face, and she's like, what are you up to? And she's like, oh, you'll see. And I'm like, oh, God, what do we. What is she about to do now? Like, this.

I can't.

I don't know how much more of this I can take. Like. And I. And I know, having seen the play, like, I'm like. I know, like, most is coming. Yeah, exactly. So I'm like, oh, God, here we go. Okay.

Really important question for that end. Do you think that she. That she died by suicide? Yeah, because that's been. That's the thing that's really been.

There is a part of me that thinks that woman made every decision that night. She controlled every single car, every single piece on the board. And I don't think her death is any different. I don't think it's any different.

It's another tactic that she is completely in control in front of five steps ahead of everybody, always. And I truly believe that she had a hand to play in her own death.

Yeah, that's what I started to think, too, because I'm like, had she. She still been alive, she's played all her cards, right? So there's nothing else at this point, right? There was. There's a small. I was like, if.

And if she's still alive, though, I'm like, okay, if she had. Because she's also hearing. Right, that. Because I guess. So again, Nina's character, and I'm gonna remember it in a second, but Nina.

Nina Haas's character, Eileen Hedda, gives her the gun to basically, essentially do the same thing.

And it's found out, like, as Teddah is descending into, like, the water and everything, the final thing, right before it, you know, cuts to black, is she hears that she's alive. Right, Right.

So it's like, so even if she had stayed alive, I don't know who's to say that she couldn't have found another way to, like, try to control the people around her. But then at that time, even at, Even still at that time, there was so many things unraveling. Right.

At that point, there was also the guy who was trying to assault her. Right. So that's another thing.

It's just like, you can never not have that, I guess, when you have women who are put in a sexual position at all in movies. I guess.

Right.

But, yeah, a lot of moving parts that she just gracefully exited from, like, the deeper she is.

Yes.

And I do believe that she made that choice. And hearing that she's alive.

Yeah.

I think that cemented her wanting to die. Yeah, I think that fully cemented her. Like, okay, I can go now. I didn't want her to actually die. Like, that was never her purpose. She wanted.

I think she wanted to hurt her, but I did not think that she wanted that outcome. So I think that cemented her, like, I can go.

Yeah. And I'm going to man that movie.

Yeah. I was not expecting that whatsoever when I turned that on. And it was a really great surprise.

And what I. I didn't realize that Nia until I've watched. I had seen all of these movies except for Candyman, and I watched that recent. I watched that yesterday and realizing Tessa pops up in all of these.

Like, Tessa is here. Like, she. I. I didn't realize she was the Michael B. Jordan to her. Ryan Coogler.

Right, Exactly.

You know, like, how cute.

Right?

Love that.

I love that.

Yeah.

Yeah. Because you. I feel like it's always like a conversation and of course, like, it.

It makes sense to appoint, you know, hearing about, like, all of the male directors and the actors are usually bringing on into projects. Right. But, you know, women are often, again, like, kind of cast aside and not really talked about, you know, you know, women directors.

But I mean, this is. Yeah, this is, this is really who she brings on.

Before we get into the Marvels, where Tessa Thompson also has, like, this, just this small, like, you know, appearance and everything, and was not expecting her to. To pop up in that movie.

But did you have any other comments about or thoughts about, you know, the film, you know, overall, you know, any themes or other takeaways?

No, I think we dived into what I've thought mostly about Hedda, and I just, I can enjoy her for the complex character that she is.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can't imagine anyone else tackling that role as. As. As well as Tessa Thompson.

Indeed.

Yes. Would have appreciated more recognition, you know, from award shows, but that's fine.

And NAACP and the AAFCA, they did their thing with recognizing Hedda and Nia DaCosta. So. Yes. Moving on to the Marvels.

So the Marvels follows Carol Danvers, Kamala Khan, and Monica Rambeau, who find their powers entangled, forcing them to swap places.

Whenever they use them, they must team up to stop Kree leader Dar Benn, who is destroying planets to restore her own homeworld, Hala, while seeking revenge on Carol. Okay, so initial thoughts about this one.

Okay, so I'm a Marvel girly. So I'm literally wearing a Black Panther sweatshirt. So I was down for the Marvels. I really enjoyed the Kamala show on Disney.

I enjoyed Captain Marvel. So I was really looking forward to this. And I know as a general fan base, it was not received the best,

which we know what we can contribute to, right?

And I truly think it's full on sexism. Why? And racism. For sure.

For sure. For sure.

Why this movie wasn't regaled higher than it was.

Yeah.

Because it's not that bad of a movie. Like, it really not.

It really wasn't.

And they really have such an issue with it. I will say, whether I was talking to someone about it, they were like, I didn't understand the connection between Carol and. And the black Woman.

I'm like, did you not watch Captain Marvel?

Right?

It's. Come on, we know Marvel. I get that there's 22 segments in the Marvel MCU. I get that there's a million.

So many.

But you do kind of have to watch prequels.

You know what I'm saying? Like, can't just watch. You can't just, like, expect to just swoop in and watch one of them and then understand all the different content.

So I think it got a lot more hate than it deserved.

Right.

And yeah, like. And I think it showcased the three of them and their part and their powers really well. I felt I.

It was a very fun movie for me, honestly, to be quite honest. So it's.

I. It, for me was exactly what I would expect, like, from a comic book film. Like, I'm here for the fun, right? Like, sure.

If there's, like, deeper themes, great. I love that. But I'm just here for the fun. I'm here to see predominantly, like, like, women led film. I thought that the way in which, like, their.

Their chemistry, like, worked and especially for Carol and Monica having, you know, things that they really needed to sort out that they hadn't been able to sort out.

I remember reading an interview that Nia DaCosta gave about the dynamic between these three, and it was really supposed to be like, kind of like estranged sisters, like, getting together, which is really what it felt like. It was a sisterhood. They're sharing these powers. Their powers are entangled, and so they're having to learn to work together. Right?

Which is something especially when we see these teams getting together. We saw it with the Avengers. We've seen it with other Marvel films that we've seen with other films in general. But you also.

You also have this dynamic where there is a history there. You know, again, you have Carol and Monica, who have this history and, you know, is tied to family. You know, that's her Aunt Carol.

And at the same time, you also have Kamala, who, first of all, I loved Ms. Marvel. Like, I loved Ms. Marvel.

Ms. Marvel was a great show.

Oh, so, so good. It's one of the best, in my opinion, shows. Marvel shows. But then you also have.

She's such a huge, huge fan of her, and you're just seeing her, and she's like this young teen who just looks up to Captain Marvel, but then also to see her kind of not only just being a fan, but then also having the reality of, like, meeting your heroes. Right? And knowing. And knowing this side of. Of, you know, Captain Marvel is so I really did love that dynamic.

And then just, of course, them being women and, you know, you know, feeding off of one another, you know, and getting to know each other and fighting, you know, together, I think was just a beautiful thing to see. It was also very funny. It was also very funny.

Including her. Kamala's family. Oh, my God.

The.

The house scene.

Oh, my God.

Is fantastic. The mom and dad did so good. I thought that was a hilarious scene. The cats.

The cats.

The cats. The Gwerkins or Flerkens. Okay. Like, they were so good. But then also, right, we get back to Nia, no matter what, even if it's a Marvel.

We got a complicated character.

We got a complicated character. Okay?

Because what are they calling Captain Marvel? The Annihilator.

And I'm like, where does that come from?

Who is she annihilating? Like, what happened? And come to find out, the person who's supposed to be the villain is actually just trying to get some. The sun back to her planet.

You know what I'm saying?

Because Captain Marvel made it so that it don't Shine there no more. It's her fault fully.

And that is the complexity that we were talking about with Nita Costa. Like, there's.

Because I'm so quick, you know, with most villains, like, especially comic book villains, like you're expecting, okay, like, they're not going to be these, you know, three dimensional. They're. They're not. They're these two dimensional people. Like, they're this one dimensional. Okay? They're clearly the.

The villain and everything like that. And right now, of course, listen, okay, colonization is always bad, all right?

When you're like, you know, stealing resources, imperialism, we hate it. At the same time, we understand that. Listen, this is someone who's taken everything, right? Her people are suffering.

She's doing everything that she possibly can to make sure that they continue to survive, but not only just survive, but thrive. Like, be the people that they once were, the thriving community that they once were.

And so to see all these other, you know, worlds that are allowed to, you know, move on and. And them not them just kind of being left to their own devices, right, you can understand where that she's coming from.

Like, it's still awful, but we understand why.

Yeah. My sympathy was much higher once I realized Carol's role in that. That plaintiff's demise. And it just. I'm sorry. It, it, it. And it's also.

Okay, so you have this superpowered person saying, well, there's a fight, so I'm going to take out one side of it and take out the conflict and everything's gonna be fixed. And it's just like, what.

Like, who made you?

Who asked you for that? Who asked you for that?

Like, why are you allowed. Who made you the decider?

Like, the white savior complex is a little too real.

Listen, listen. Okay.

And it messed you up, right? And it messed those people up, right?

It messed those people up. So I'm like, she. Darbin had every right. Please. She had every right, you know, to do that. And I.

Again, I think that's what makes, like, that's what made it, you know, I mean, it was already fun, right? But it, it makes. It goes. It goes deeper than, you know, just being like a, you know, an average, like, comic book film.

You know, you're getting into some really, like, you're getting into some deeper themes. And I really appreciated that about, about this film also about.

Funny how funny it is, okay, Going back to the cats that are not cats, that whole scene of so them trying to escape, right, that one world, and they're having to, like, use them to Suck up.

To inhale.

To inhale.

Right?

Like, the other. Right. Oh, my God. That. I was like, I'm, like, watching that, and I'm going. I don't know how I feel about this right now. It was adorable. I loved it.

I'm like, sure, it's clever, but also,

they not gonna get lost.

I'm like, they're not gonna, like, digest them. Like, they're gonna be okay.

It's a vacuum. It's just a vacuum. And it just sits in there and they just marinate.

Right. I was just like.

I was like, trying to think back to, like, other Marvel films where we've seen, like, just the weirdest, which we have definitely with, like, Guardians of the Galaxy. For sure. For sure, for sure. Yes.

You know, Love and Thunder as a whole was just. Just like, what are we.

What are we doing? Yeah, so just like, you know what? That's different. Like, you know, but just all that. Also going back to her family again. Very, very funny.

Let's talk about the representation. Not just with, like, you know, because in the. In the. The TV show, Ms. Marvel, they. They address, like, they address things like partition, right.

And all that. You know, that the split between, so India and Pakistan, right. Getting into that.

But also the Muslim representation, because I had to rewind it a few times because, like, so when.

When, you know, Kamala comes back after their, like, huge, you know, fight with Dar Bean, like, I hear the father saying yallah, like, and I'm just like, I don't think I've ever heard that in a film that's also especially, like, a comic book film. I'm like, no, I'm hearing that from, like, my. My Arab friends, my. My Muslim friends. Like, that is something that is very specific, like, to that.

To that culture. And so I just remember going, what?

And then also, too, at some point, like, when they're trying to transport everyone right to another world, right, we hear the sun, like, praying, like, in Arabic. And I'm just going, this is awesome. Like, and, you know, I'm as. As, of course, like, this.

This podcast is all about representation in cinema, but I. I just felt that was like something else that was like, okay, I see you representation.

Like, absolutely.

That was.

That was awesome to see in a post 911 world.

We have come a long way.

Yeah. We can't really, you know, shy away from acknowledging the representation there in White matters. I mean, Ms. Marvel as a show as a whole, right?

It just showing this amazing, loving family and this curious funn daughter, and it definitely did its thing it did what it needed to do to showcase that culture. I think I saw the subtitle say it was Urdu. They were speaking, like, specifically Urdu, which has some, like.

I work for a Rochester city department, and we have to talk about access to languages. Right. And so we have the top 12. We have to get things translated. Top certain. Right up to 12 languages in the city. That's not a language that's there.

So this is also a language that's not in, like, common dialects that just everyone. There's. There's so many different languages that are spoken in that region.

So it's just also really nice to see something that we're not seeing every day.

Right. Was it. Wait, so was the prayer in Urdu or was it. Okay, got it. Yeah. So not Arabic. Okay.

So it's primarily Pakistan and India, but it's throughout the Muslim area of Southeast Asia is where it's more predominant.

Gotcha. Okay.

Also, shout out to shout out to one of the actresses in this movie, Tiana Paris. There's also a movie you and I talked about, Jackie, which was. They cloned Tyrone.

Oh, my gosh. They clone Tyrone.

And she's going to come up with another one of the movies. But I just wanted to shout out they cloned Tyrone because she was in that.

One of the main characters. Yes, she was. Yeah, she was.

So she's so great.

Yeah. We haven't talked about Teanna Paris yet much in Marvels. Yes, I. What is it?

So she had a character that we met in Captain Marvel as a child, and then WandaVision is when we see her again. And which WandaVision subpar or not subpar? Amazing. Wrong word.

You're right.

Two podcasts back to back is rough.

Stop whining.

No, that's my job, and I do it well. And yeah, so she is just. I. And then this one. What is it? Because she starts off a little closed off for Captain Marvel because she's been away.

And you learn also that when she got blipped in Infinity War, you know, while she was gone, her mom died.

Right. And then Captain Marvel, the amazing and talented lashanalyn, who we love.

Who we love Stan. And, you know, she passes away and then Captain Marvel never comes to see her.

Yeah.

Never comes to check in on her. And is worried about everybody else in this universe except the little. Except someone you actually called family.

And I will say, tipping over to Carol, being complicated once again, it's like you're also letting down the one person that you. That. That's known you the longest that you could Trust that.

That the daughter of your very best friend who's no longer here, you know, her selfish side a little bit. Cause it's like, yeah, being in space is cool. You know, it's great. But what about the life you left on Earth?

Yeah, yeah. It's like. It's feeling. Because I. It's.

It's all these complexities because she is someone who has been given, you know, these incredible powers, and so she herself, you know, feels a heavy responsibility. But then it's also that same thing that got her in trouble, which is why she's the Annihilator.

And it's also that great sense of responsibility that you feel that your role is more out there than it is with folks who called you family.

And if you had placed that role over here, maybe you wouldn't have taken those people's son away.

You know what I'm saying?

Okay. That's all we saying. That's it.

You could have avoided so many problems.

Absolutely.

We would not have this. No.

But Teyana Paris, she. I think she really added a levity to Captain Marvel and

Ms. Marvel.

Ms. Marvel, right. I was like, which Marvel? Ms. Marvel. She was definitely that level, that levity, that in between of them and balanced them out, right?

Yeah, absolutely. What did you think of the scene where they're having to go. I think it was like the. The planet where they're.

They're thinking Dar Ben, which she eventually does end up, like, stealing water from. And the way that their. Their language is, like, singing.

Yeah. First of all, so I rewatched the movie today. I just put it on, and I had. I had went into the kitchen, and I'm here listening to it.

I'm like, did a musical sound, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's what I thought. It was like, wait, what's happening?

And I've seen it before, but I still. I saw it when it first came out. I'm like, did a musical start? What happened? I think it's hilarious. I love that. Because you know what?

Cause that's the planet I would live on. I would live on the musical planet where we sing everything to each other. So I appreciated that representation personally. But I. What is it?

I was trying to think if they had musical. I know Brie Larson dabbles has sang.

Oh, she has. Cause she was in Scott Pilgrim.

Right.

Of the world.

Right? So I'm like, I know she sang before. So I think some movies or TV shows have to capitalize when they have.

Oh, of course. Oh, this person can sing. They can dance like this.

Right, right. And sometimes it creates really painful things to watch, like Grey's Anatomy or you get. Or it was not painful for me to watch this.

I will say their musical scene.

Yes. Because you're also, you're. You're basically, you are both Ms. Marvel and Captain Rambeau just looking like, what is happening? Right.

So you're like, okay. Like it's, it's aware of itself. Like it's. Yeah, it was, it was funny. And then when she has to talk to, like her husband, essentially, you know.

No, no, we have to talk. And so he's like, oh, yeah. And then it's like he's basically just like a normal, like, not singing.

And I just thought like, these little moments are just funny. It just added to, like the hilarity of it all, which is, of course, like, again, what you want. You know, it's a Marvel movie.

It's not meant to be hard hitting news. Hard hitting, you know, themes.

You gotta have some levity.

Like, there's, you know, there's, there's definitely like, you know, deep, deeper and darker themes, but you gotta, you gotta balance it, you know, with everything else. So.

Right. Because you get the colonization, you get the imperialism.

Like, it is crazy.

It's definitely, it's definitely woven in there, if you look.

Yeah, for sure. Oh, my gosh. Okay. And so we are going to move on into. Because speaking of Teyana Paris, she is also in Candyman.

Candyman is the, I guess, like a. Yeah, it is like the remake of the. The classic classic film back in 92, Candyman.

So it's about an artist who begins to explore the history of Candyman, not knowing that it would unravel his sanity and unleash a terrifying wave of violence that puts him on a collision course with destiny. Okay, so by the way, shout out to Yaya for this incredible performance. Yeah. First thoughts? That was at least my first thought.

But like, what was your first thoughts after watching this film?

My first thoughts. So what is it? I think I went into it really wanting to like it. Really wanting to support this remake of this iconic movie.

Yeah.

Um, and for it to be directed by a black woman. But I do think there were a couple things that were lost for me. And that was, you know, I. I don't wanna jump ahead in the plot,

but I mean, you can. It's fine.

Okay, cool.

It's all good.

So I don't like that.

I mean, the whole plot right behind Candyman becoming who he was is these over the decades, I think it was maybe roughly one every 30 years or so, there was a black man that would be terrorized or traumatized in some form, and then he would basically die and then come back and exact his revenge as that generation's Candyman.

Right.

And this movie is following, quote, unquote, this generation's Candyman and how he is becoming the next Candyman.

I think, for me, because the other men were severely tortured, were severely put through hell, were treated like absolute garbage by their communities. Uh, like, it took. It drove. There was a lot that pushed him into becoming that character. And I don't think. I'm not saying I wanted to see more trauma.

Like, I don't think that's what I'm necessarily advocating for. But we did not see him put through those kind. Those kinds of trials and tribulations where it's this outside force of usual. Right.

Supremacy in some form. And that is what his downfall was. His downfall was literally just Colman Domingo. I just.

Everyone is having to go through physical trauma, whereas his is more psychological, I guess it becomes physical manipulation. Yeah, it becomes. It definitely becomes. It definitely becomes physical, but it's more so psychological.

Right. He's being haunted by Candyman, where it felt like the earlier iterations not embraced, but like. Like Candyman belonged to them.

Yes.

You know, because. Because of what they had went through. And now they have this moniker to avenge their name.

Right, right.

Whereas this one, he haunted him. You know, he tortured him first. And I just.

I think there was a disconnect of if there's going to be a haunting and torturing, why are black people doing it? You know?

Yeah.

And I don't.

I don't understand why we have these backstories of all these black men, like Sherman and all these men who were done wrong by their society just for, like. But it's not their society. It's not their people.

Right.

It is usually officers or white. Just white supremacists in general. Kkk. Um. And I. I think that was a. That was a letdown for me.

Yeah, that was definitely the disconnect. So I. Sorry. For all of the horror, classic horror fans. I had not seen Candyman before this. I ran out of time.

Shout out to Tony Todd.

Exactly. Exactly. And I will eventually watch it. However, so. As has being someone who hasn't seen the originals and just going into this. Right. Watching this.

This remake, even with. Even without having that specific background that you talked about, Bri, I felt that there was a disconnect, especially within the themes or. Yeah.

Getting into, like, the social commentary and everything. Like that. Because we do see there's a little bit in the film of this, you know, the. The little kid, the William who is. Becomes Colman Domingos in.

In this one, we do see that where there is this outside force, right? These.

These officers, right, who are looking to, you know, strike terror, as we do see plenty of times in this country with, you know, police brutality and breeding on this man who. Who was. The neighborhoods. Like that. That was their. That was their man. And so to.

To see, you know, this now current iteration or, you know, who this man is starting to become. Yeah, it. It felt as though there was an imbalance there. Like, I felt some sort of imbalance watching this.

And I wasn't quite getting the point that they were trying to make with this, because even in, like. Like, I. Because the. The. The thing that I really.

One of the things that I really enjoyed actually, unfortunately came at the end where we're seeing, like, so the. The end credits. And you're seeing that entire animated sequence of like, through these, like, kind of shadow, like puppets. Very well done.

But it's explaining the kind of, like the history, like, you're seeing all of these very real cases, right. Of what black men have. Have had done to them, like, or was done to them by these white communities. Right.

And then trying to relate it to the main guy in the film. I was like, again, I'm like. I'm not. It's not clicking for me what it is that you're trying to do, because

blatantly you didn't give us a white villain.

Yeah, right.

Candyman was the vil.

Candyman was the villain.

And then common Domingo, by extension. So only black men were the villain in the show.

Yeah.

And that just doesn't sit. It's not sitting.

No, it's not. It's not sitting. The thing that I will say about the film is number one, cinematography. Incredible. Loved that.

I loved the suspense that is set up, especially when he's going back, you know, to the old village and he's kind of like looking around, watching, I guess.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, like, had it not been for, like, the history that already exists with Candyman, if you were introducing this as a new. As a new lore and watching this man descend into insanity, right. You see the obsession, right. Cause this is a struggling artist. Heck. Hello.

I can speak to this as someone who is an artist, right.

And trying to find, you know, different ways of expressing art without someone also having, like, this very harsh criticism about, like, your work, which you Definitely see, like, that part.

I appreciate if it, if, if you were watching this man, like, because of him wanting to do a great job or wanting to be seen and wanting to be recognized, right. You start to see him this kind of. This. This force sort of like take over due to his obsession and then his slow descent into insanity.

I would have loved that just as a story on its own. But again, because you also have this

history that is attached, which is also in the movie.

Right?

They do the whole history breakdown in the movie. So it's like, it's so close to us that you can't really ignore what we know. The intentions were.

Right.

But then the follow through just didn't happen.

Right. And then, correct me if I'm wrong, for all the people who stupidly said the name five times. Were they. Were any of them black?

Yes, they. They had a black. Black child. What is it? They don't show them dying, but they're behind a door. Like their little brother is trying to get inside the.

That's right. That's right, that's right.

So. Because I remember thinking, what is it?

Because I was like, is it only white? Because that one Asian chick in the bathroom, she's like, nah, I'm out.

Right? She left. She left. But yeah, so he. He did have some. A couple black victims.

Okay, yeah, because. Because otherwise. Because that was the other thing too. I was like. Because I couldn't remember. I'm like, wait, are all of the victims. Are they.

Are they non black people?

Because that also could have been something.

Because that could have been something.

Yeah.

So I don't know. I mean, there's still again, like, Nia de Casa. She's introducing, like all these complex characters. Right? We love that.

But then, yeah, that I think, was what made it. I didn't connect as much with it as I thought I might. You know, like I said, I really wanted to fully love. Right.

The film, especially being something that is not only like Nia DaCosta's work, but then also this produced by Monkey Paw Productions, right? Owned by Jordan Peele. Right? Yeah.

Like, I think that's what surprised me a little bit, is knowing that Monkey Paul was behind it. And that's what I.

How I felt about him as well. The movie him.

See, I didn't watch him.

Okay. Yeah, it's. It's that third.

And I think that's also what did it for me, like the third act again, I'm like, given everything that is transpired still, like, I'm at a disconnect. But Then also getting into that third act and like, especially those final.

Those final moments, I'm like, so what am I supposed to take away from this? Yeah.

Because also right when he got bit by the bee, I was like, so he's infected now? Is that why he's upset?

Yeah, yeah.

And what was the point of that? Is that like, would he still have been obsessed if he didn't get bit?

Right.

Even though he seems to be slated to be within this world because he was stolen as a baby.

Yeah, that's right. You almost forgot about that.

Right. Because he.

Because there's that whole thing where he was the. He was the sacrifice.

Right, Right. And that white woman. They tried to say the white woman tried to kill him, but actually she saved him.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So it's. So it's uplifting this white. So essentially it's uplifting this white woman. And we're not. Oh, girl. So it's uplifting this white woman.

And then the black people are the villains. Oh, dang.

Dang.

What you heard is a realization.

But actually, yeah, like, damn, that's exactly it. And ah, Nia, I.

Maybe you know what? I was like, maybe. Maybe it was. No, because the studio would have been. The studio was. Would have been.

Who was the studio for this actually behind this? I know that because. And I know Monkey Paw is the production company.

I always just do that when I'm like, there's a decision that doesn't quite make sense. I was like, well, maybe it was a studio executive

sometimes, I don't know.

But.

But yeah, I do think it missed the mark. And what is it? I guess I also. Because when he finally became Candyman, I felt nothing.

Nothing.

I felt nothing.

I'm like, okay, so he's the new. I guess, what is he supposed to be? The protector? Because right now at this point it doesn't feel like the protector.

No.

Like, what are you. I don't know, are you going to kill her now too? Or is it because you were already a partner? Partners with her.

You won't kill her, but if you weren't partners, you would have killed her.

Killed her. Yeah, that's the thing. But then. But then at the end, like, then he's killing police officers.

So now I'm like, okay, so the themes are all over the place right now. And I'm not sure what I'm supposed to take from this. Again, cinematography and acting was great. I loved her with her brother and the partner.

They were funny, you know, a little comedic relief.

Right, Right. I will say once again, she had a complex character because I did not like him. I did not like him. The main guy, I did not like him.

I thought he was very selfish and self centered. There was a part, I think it was after he got bit, but it was when the first victims were found and they're watching the news.

Oh, he's like, and my name has been said.

They care mentioned his name.

Bro, are you okay? What is happening?

And then you learned through that when she found them, like, she also saw her dad commit suicide, so.

Oh, that got buried too, right?

So she's dealing with that and he's all just thinking about his name and I'm like, baby girl, why are you still with him?

What's going on? That's the first and final red flag. I'm out like him.

Like, not even caring that of the trauma she went through. So it was. I did not like him. There was no possibility of like, like it was with Heather. Like, I just disliked him.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good God. Okay, well, on that note, if there is anything, if, if, if Nia were a regular listener on the podcast, what would you say to her directly?

Keep creating complex characters. I think, I don't think we're meant to like every single person we ever meet and that. And we're not meant to like every person we see on a screen.

I think those people, those stories still deserve to exist and breathe.

Yeah. Yes, absolutely. I would. Yeah, absolutely say yes. She's Nia, you're really good at complex characters. I would also just love to see.

I mean, she said in interviews, like, she always loves to kind of genre bend and she wants to do like other genres. Honestly, like, if we can get more. I. I'm a. I'm a western girly. I love westerns. Shout out to the Harder they fall. An incredible, credible film.

I would love to see her direct a western. I think that would be badass.

Absolutely.

Yeah, I think that she could do it for sure too. Um, well, Bre, thank you so much for being on the podcast, for talking about all things Nia dacosta.

Yeah, I had so much fun.

Yes, we always have fun in the pod breaking down these films and everything. Listeners will have more information, of course, where you can follow and support Bree in the show notes in the description below.

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