What if the most nutritious food for your pet could also help heal the planet? Join us as we dig deep into the world of regenerative agriculture and what it means for the future of pet food. Co-Hosts Dr. Stephanie Clark and Jordan Tyler sit down with Angela Jackson of the Regenerative Organic Alliance, Caitlyn Dudas of Good Company, and the trailblazing team behind Cave Pets, the first certified regenerative organic pet brand, to unpack the science, the business case, and the tangible impact of regenerative practices—from boosting nutrient density in ingredients to rebuilding biodiversity on farms. (And stay tuned—this episode is the first of many for our ongoing series on sustainability initiatives across the pet industry!)

Helpful Links

Learn more about the Regenerative Organic Alliance 🌱 https://regenorganic.org/

Hear more from the Cave Pets team about their innovative approach to sustainability and pet nutrition innovation 💡 https://bsmpartners.net/barking-mad-podcast/ancient-wisdom-meets-modern-science-behind-the-brand-with-cave-pets

Check out these real-life studies on regenerative agriculture! 🧠

• Peer-Reviewed Research: Soil Health and Nutrition Density: Preliminary Comparison of Regenerative and Conventional Farming: https://peerj.com/articles/12848/
• Peer-Reviewed Research: Soil Health and Nutrient Density: Beyond Organic vs Conventional Farming: https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/sustainable-food-systems/articles/10.3389/fsufs.2021.699147/full
• Company Case Study: White Oak Pastures regenerative beef: https://blog.whiteoakpastures.com/hubfs/WOP-LCA-Quantis-2019.pdf

Follow Caitlyn Dudas at GOOD COMPANY as she works to support the regenerative agriculture movement 🌎 https://goodcompanysolutions.com/

Read more about the National Organic Program standards 📋 https://www.ams.usda.gov/rules-regulations/organic

Show Notes

00:00 – Welcome Back!

01:34 – Introducing Today’s Guests

02:14 – Why Certifications Matter for Pet Nutrition

03:31 – Understanding Regenerative Organic Certified (ROC)

04:27 – Cave Pets’ Certification Insights

05:42 – Sustaining versus Regenerating

07:30 – Making the Business Case for Regenerative Agriculture

10:01 – Regenerative Agriculture in Practice

13:17 – Holistic Benefits of Regenerative Organic Agriculture

17:04 – Show Us the Data!

19:49 – Consumer Demand for Regenerative Products

22:59 – Other Challenges for the Future of Regenerative Agriculture

26:23 – A Complex Puzzle

33:35 – Other Regenerative Ag Certifications

36:26 – ROC’s Impact on the Global Food System

39:16 – Conclusion and Farewell

Dr. Stephanie Clark: What if the healthiest food for your pet was also the best choice for our planet? Today's pet parents prioritize quality over sustainability. What if you didn't have to choose? Today, we're exploring an agricultural revolution that doesn't just sustain our environment, but actively regenerates it while producing more nutrient dense ingredients for both humans and pets.

Jordan Tyler: Join us as we unpack the Regenerative Organic Certification, or ROC, through which food brands and farmers can validate their ingredients and products against rigorous standards for regenerative organic agriculture. We'll take you through the difference between organic and regenerative organic, share compelling data around how regenerative agriculture can not only increase farmers yields, but also result in more nutrient dense crops. And chat with passionate movers and shakers in this space to give you a glimpse into a future where we're not just sustaining, but adding value back to the planet, its people, and our pets.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: Welcome to Barking Mad, a podcast by BSM Partners. We're your hosts, Dr. Stephanie Clark—

Jordan Tyler: —and I'm Jordan Tyler. We're joined today by four fabulous guests: Angela Jackson, quality assurance expert at the Regenerative Organic Alliance and a regenerative farmer herself, Caitlyn Dudas, founder of Good Company and former executive director of the Pet Sustainability Coalition, and Cico Rodriguez and Kathleen Fleck, chief science officer and brand director of Cave Pets, respectively. And if you want to learn more about the Cave Pets brand, we have a whole episode all about them, so be sure to check that out in the show notes for this episode or look for the episode titled Ancient Wisdom meets Modern Science on your favorite podcast platform.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: Now, before we get into the ROC certification, let's get a feel for why certifications even matter for pet nutrition and for sustainability claims like regenerative agriculture. Angela, I'd love to get your take on this. What do certifications offer brands? What about consumers?

Angela Jackson: I think for me, certification adds a level of assurance to the consumer and the buyers that the claim on the label is trustworthy. People ask me, “What's the difference between, you know, certification and some of the other claims that's being made?” I kind of put them in two different buckets. Certification has oversight, it has inspections. It has a rigorous framework around it. And movement, which a lot of these, what we're seeing in the regenerative space is what I term movements, they are our practices. They are beliefs that organizations adopt. They could be a mission and a vision that they would like to achieve, but that's where it stops. It's a loosely organized group of individuals who are applying or like to use a term, and make it like a claim, but there's really no assurances that it's going to be followed.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: Let's go now into the Regenerative Organic certification. Angela, would you mind taking us behind the scenes of this certification and how it works?

Angela Jackson: Yes. So ROC, or Regenerative Organic Certified, it builds on the National Organic Program standards on the land management and soil health side. They also have animal welfare standard as part of their framework, and then they have the farmer fairness and worker standards. Right? The social aspect of the framework.

The idea is ROC unites soil health, animal welfare and social fairness into one comprehensive certification that producers then can join at different levels. And your products are Regenerative Organic Certified. The ROA continuously reviews and updates the Regenerative Organic Certified guidelines. The ROA owns that framework. They are responsible for overseeing and maintaining that global framework.

Jordan Tyler: Gotcha. Thank you for that. Throwing it now to Cico and Kathleen over at Cave Pets. As one of the first pet brands to receive the regenerative organic certification, what did that process look like for you and why pursue it in the first place?

Kathleen Fleck: So, as of this morning, there are 307 certified farms and ranches, 2,040 certified products, and 233 licensed brands. Now I will say that the majority of those are in the human space, but we are starting to see within the pet space many organizations integrating regenerative ingredients into their formulations. And so it really is more than just a buzzword.

When we look at regenerative practices, what we're actually doing is recapturing the carbon within the soil so that it's not released back into the environment. And it's a physical manifestation of reducing that carbon footprint. When I look at regenerative practices, we are actually turning the tide backwards and improving the environment. Regenerative practices make the environment more sustainable long term.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: Yeah, it's funny the way we talk about sustainability as if sustaining is the end goal—but it's really not. The end goal should be adding value back or regenerating the planet rather than just breaking even. Cico, I think it's fascinating the way you talk about this. So ,would you take us through how these are different and why regenerative might offer a more powerful framework?

Cico Rodriguez: You know, were talking before the podcast about how we noticed transitioning into the new year was very intense. Because we filled up our time, and we probably, if I were to be honest, are working at an unsustainable level. I think humans in general are working and engaging at an unsustainable level. But if we said we're going to sustain, we actually would be working against ourselves. What we actually have to do is create systems and processes that allow for all of the beneficial creativity of us in our workplace, in our home, and all those places can continue while not taxing the individual.

Well, it's the same thing in ecosystems. I joke with people in discussions on leadership. I said, “Who's a leader in an ecosystem?” And I said, “It really depends on the season.” Right? The soil supports the growing seasons, the spring, and all of those things, but then it becomes the fruit trees and the animals interact with the flowers that cause things to spring forward. And so who's leading this? And so it's really each part of the ecosystem supporting each other in a way that allows all of it to thrive. Because if one piece misses, if one piece is out, then all of a sudden it causes effects that we can't see. If one is working in a degenerative way, but we're sustaining others, we're missing the point.

Jordan Tyler: Really interesting. So with sustainability and regeneration, I feel like the moral case is pretty easy to get across, right? Like, I don't know about you, but I don't really want to move to Mars. I like it here on Earth. But it's the business case or justifying sustainability from an operational perspective, a business perspective that can be more difficult to communicate, especially for companies that are maybe just getting started on their sustainability journeys. So, Caitlyn, I know you've done a ton of work helping brands make the business case for sustainability. So, would you tell us, why adopt regenerative agriculture practices? How does it make better business sense?

Caitlyn Dudas: You know, the business case is a funny thing. I've never heard a strong business case for depleting all of the natural resources we need to actually run businesses. So I'd also love to see the business case for conventional business, because that's not really working either, so…

When we talk about a definition of a sustainable ingredient, right, that includes environmental impact, social impact, nutrition impact, as well as animal welfare. So, what we know is the conventional farming system does not have good outcomes across those four variables. So, we know our environment is degrading. I think more than 50% of farmlands are now listed as degraded land. Right? We know that there's toxicity happening to our waterways and air pollution. And so our environment and our soil health and our ability to continue raising food in the way that we are today is not working across all of those four factors.

And so regenerative ag is, like, the furthest we've gotten in how to maximize all of those four key factors. So regenerative ag can sequester greenhouse gases and actually sequester more greenhouse gases than is emitted on the farm. It provides a much better wellbeing for the farmers and their communities. Again, on this nutrient density, where the science is just being revealed to prove that and the animal welfare standards that go in alignment with that.

So, Angela, how does regen ag achieve this? Or I guess I should ask, what does regenerative organic agriculture really look like in practice?

Angela Jackson: For me, regenerative farming is integrating a rigorous and ethical form of farming, and we are able to measure how effective that is being practiced throughout the organization. So, unlike Organic Certification, which focuses primarily on prohibiting synthetics or prohibiting certain practices, ROC emphasizes rebuilding soil carbon, regenerating the soil, soil health, healing the planet, biodiversity, through these regenerative farming practices. It addresses climate change, and how we do that is we measure it. Right?

So, we have a baseline where we start through soil analysis and soil testing, and then we can measure, which we do on our farm every year, we take new soil analysis and new soil tests, and then we're able to put those numbers in a spreadsheet and literally see how things improve over time. And you can do that the same with your animal health of the health of your whole system. Right? The health of your animals, it's easy to track. You know, your incidences of disease, outbreak, pest outbreak, injuries, accidents, death loss. All of these things you can track over time. And you can track also the connection of the animals to the land management aspects of your farm.

I had people come out to our farm and say, “Oh my goodness, I've never seen so many songbirds in one place.” So, we know that and we're actually seeing that the practices that we put in place are attracting beneficial pollinators and biodiversity in ways that conventional farms aren't seeing.

Jordan Tyler: What a cheerful piece of evidence. I love that. Sounds like it's not just a concept—it's actually tangible.

Angela Jackson: Yeah. I will add, when we talk about the seeing, you can also smell it. When you come on our farm, it smells deliciously earthy. And when you're a farmer, you love that spring smell. You know when the earth is waking up, it tells you it's waking up.

And the other thing that's really interesting is when you go out on our farm, you can literally put a shovel in the ground and flip it and you're going to see just earthworms and all kinds of life in the first turn of the soil. We just took over managing a small field that was farmed conventionally, and we went out there and we dug 18 holes and were not able to find a single earthworm eight inches down.

That's the difference between surface feeding and deep feeding. With regenerative, you deep feed. With conventional ag, you're only feeding the top two inches of the soil. It's not getting down to the roots, it's not getting down into the areas of the soil where it's going to make the biggest impact. So that's why conventional farmers, and this is my opinion, is that we kind of get on a rabbit trail because you're not helping to heal the soil or allow the soil to regenerate itself and defend itself. If you're just surface feeding, you're just giving the plant what it needs. It's an emergency Band-Aid, but it's not a long-term fix.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: Exactly! We're beyond Band-Aids, right? And I want to come back to something you said before we started recording, which is, “regenerative is about caring for the land, animals and people across all levels of the food chain.” Would you care to elaborate a bit more on the holistic benefits of regenerative organic agriculture?

Angela Jackson: Yeah, so I talk a lot about ethical practices and just prioritizing farm and worker fairness and animal welfare and social regeneration. So, it really fosters equity and sustainability within agriculture, addressing these social and ecological challenges simultaneously.

What I really like about ROC is that it's a complete whole system. We're treating the people, we're treating the land, we're treating the soil and the animals ethically. And the benefits are far and wide. So the people that are a part of this system, the workers, they experience more joy on the job or they experience greater benefits. Maybe it's job security. That makes them feel so valued and that you see them as first and foremost a human being and that they're there, yes, there to help you, but at the same time, we're there to help them.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: We can't forget about our farmers and farm workers! Without them, we wouldn't have delicious and nutritious food to eat for ourselves, not to mention for our pets—and not to mention for my family.

Cico Rodriguez: If we only focused on feeding humans, then you would have a lot of other species that would be hurt by that singular focus. And so, when you think about that in a more holistic way, saying, you know, really we want to support ecosystems because ecosystems are what feed the world. And that's what, you know, the story of regenerative agriculture is all about. So Beyond Organic Ranch is a regenerative agriculture farm. Now, that means almost everything to everybody or nothing to everybody, because it's a complicated term. And so, I'll kind of give a story and then maybe break down some of the principles.

We work with a farm that grows a number of herbs across turmeric, ashwagandha, etc., and they've grown organically for about five years prior to making the transition to regenerative organic. And I'm going to use turmeric as an example. This farm would grow turmeric, and turmeric—if you grew it organically or conventionally—you'll get about 15,000 kilos on a hectare. For us Americans, that's 2.4 acres. So that is true almost anywhere you grow turmeric, where it's naturally growing, whether it's India, South America, Central, whatever, wherever it is.

So, they were growing organically and they would get about 1-3% of their curcuminoid content was in the roots on average. And that's true conventional organic. So, then they transitioned to regenerative. And this wasn't a five-year transition, this wasn't a three-year transition, this was a one-year transition to regenerative. And in one year they went from 15,000 kilos per hectare to 80,000 kilos per hectare.

That's the first wow. Then you go to the second wow. The second wow is curcuminoid content, it goes from 1-3% to 8-9%. Now, it's cool to have the results because at the end of the day, that's what matters. A lot of people ask, “How do you feed the world with regenerative agriculture?” When you see what happens on the ground, or in this case in the ground, you actually say, “How can you feed the world any other way?” And so, the benefit to the farmer and then the benefit to the end user, animal or human, is astronomical.

Jordan Tyler: Some really compelling arguments there around the business case for sustainability and why regenerative organic agriculture could be a significant step toward this goal. But I would be remiss if I didn't ask you about the data.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: Data, data, data.

Jordan Tyler: So, Angela, what kind of data is out there that shows us how regeneratively farmed products are better from a nutritional and sustainability perspective?

Angela Jackson: There's two kinds of research that's happening in this space. There is the private research that's being carried out by food manufacturers or food buyers. That research is being paid for with private funds to substantiate the claims that they're making on the packaging, which I think is great.

There's other research being conducted that is peer reviewed, done by people who are in the educational space doing formal research. And one of those is a paper by David Montgomery. It's called the Soil Health and Nutrition Density Preliminary Comparison of Regenerative and Conventional Farming. Basically, that research indicates that regenerative organic crops exhibit higher nutritional quality compared to conventionally grown crops, with significant increases in micronutrients, phytochemicals and vitamins. So, for instance, the studies show that regenerative practices, such as improved soil health and biodiversity, contribute to higher levels of vitamins B, C, E and phytochemicals like carotenoids in food. So, these nutrients are linked, directly linked to soil organic matter. This is what this research showed.

So, it goes back to that idea of surface feeding versus deep feeding. And where are the roots? Are the roots in the top 2 inches? Are they in the bottom? They're deeper into the soil. And so, when you have your organic matter distributed, what we see is an increase in nutrient density of the food. So, for example, soil organic matter in his research was from 3-12% in regenerative farms versus 2.5% in conventional farms. So that directly correlated with better nutrient availability to the crops and hence into the food itself.

Jordan Tyler: Very cool. I'd like to talk a little bit about the consumer demand piece of this equation. So, in recent years, we've seen sustainability buzzwords all over the place, like transparency and ethical sourcing and others gaining traction with consumers. And I'm curious, Angela, have you seen consumer demand for regenerative, organic or regenerative products growing in recent years as well?

Angela Jackson: Definitely. We're seeing a growth. I mean, ROA is growing exponentially. It's a worldwide program. People are starting to recognize it as a trustworthy claim and a program that stands behind what it says that it's about, right? The whole mission and vision behind the organization. So it is growing.

While I don't have any specific data on regenerative organic certified, there is some survey data out there that kind of shows the trends. So, there were kind of two key resources that provide some insights into buying trends and the perception of organic and regenerative products. Start first with talking about the United states. So, the OTA—

Jordan Tyler: That stands for the Organic Trade Association.

So, while the survey data has shown that regenerative and organic claims are not really well understood in the marketplace, there was a study done in the EU that showed that consumers need a better understanding of what regenerative agriculture is and the benefits it provides to food systems and the environment. So, there was a study called Cultivating Resilience Regenerative Agriculture, and it surveyed consumers across 17 European countries, and it gathered data on the awareness of regenerative agriculture as well as purchasing and consumer trends. And basically, the study showed that European consumers tend to confuse regenerative with organic agriculture and use the term regenerative with the word organic, believing that all foods sourced from local farms are sustainable and regenerative, according to the study.

So, this report suggests that, you know, the market for organic and regenerative, while it is growing, it also needs some help in the use of those terms and what that term regenerative actually means in order to diffuse some consumer confusion.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: Yeah, so I can see how educating is definitely one challenge. What are some others? Caitlyn, could you identify some of the specific barriers that may be a little bit more challenging? What might be holding up farmers and brands from pursuing this?

Caitlyn Dudas: Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, I've been really into this lately because as a person who's positioning myself in this space, I think it's really important to understand the systemic problem and the solution and the complexity of the solution that will be required in order to really create those win solutions, right, that don't just address one node or one problematic piece, but really are driving solutions that are good for everybody.

So, how do we transition farmers from what they're doing today to more regenerative practices and understanding that, right? It's cultural. When you go to a farmer and you say, “Hey, I'd like you to do something different than you've been doing and that your dad was doing and that your grandfather was doing,” change is hard, right? And so, we need to have a business case to say, “Here's the regenerative practices that we're seeing these outcomes,” right? And so really shifting the language and the way we talk to farmers, I think, is that cultural component.

But then the finance mechanisms, right? So much like when you're transitioning to organic, when you're transitioning to regenerative, there's often a one- to three-year dip in profitability for that farmer. You know, they have to spend money on things like training and education because again, right? There's not one-size-fits-all. Texas, Georgia, very different, right? And so you have to learn what the holistic management practices are in your area. It's more labor intensive in the beginning, but in the long run, they're savings, right? So they don't have to have those upfront costs in seeds. They don't have to spend big money on agrochemicals to try to manage their land. They get a diversity of crops that they can sell into different markets, which allows for resiliency. You know, if it's a bad year, for one thing, they have other things to rely on in hard years. So ultimately, after about three years, they really show an increase in profitability. But there is that upfront cost, right? And farmers are already not making any money.

So that's kind of the farmer piece, which is one component of, “Hey, if this is a big solution, you know, what are the barriers to get there,” you know? But I also think consumers care a lot about sustainable ingredients and shopping in alignment with their values. But regen is so new, right? Like even the organic standard, which is so well understood, only 1% of all farmland in America is organic certified. Right? And so this is just that the—it takes a long time for consumers to have multiple impressions to truly understand, okay, of the 4,000 labels out there, which ones do I care about? What do they all mean? How are they different?

And so, consumer education really hasn't caught up to allow that premium, right? That premium that's paid that gives that market incentive for farmers and brands to invest in this. And so, if we orient around, here are the outcomes that we need to see from our agricultural production as a country—we want affordable food that can serve the masses. We want a good livelihood for, and we want farming to be a part of the American culture. You know, if we can all get around the objectives that we're looking for, then we can identify the solutions that really lead to those things and start really elevating solutions that address multiple nodes of these issues.

Jordan Tyler: Yeah, I think it’s super important to highlight all the pieces of this puzzle and how they need to fit together to complete the picture of regenerative ag. And we’ve talked a lot about consumer education being an important part of raising awareness and getting consumers on board, but like Caitlyn said, there are things that need to happen at the farmer level and at the brand level that are really crucial for consumer adoption, too.

Like, in our own research and in conversations with people about sustainability here in the United States but also abroad in Europe and other markets, consumers say they’re interested in and would pay more for regenerative products and other more sustainable products, but what happens when they actually get to the checkout register? What we’re seeing in a lot of sustainable product spaces today is, some of these consumers really mean it, but for others, when it comes down to it, it’s more just wishful thinking.

So, I guess what I’m trying to say is, unless we can get consumers to consistently and intentionally pay premium prices for more sustainable products, we’ve got to look for ways to make solutions like regenerative products more accessible for consumers. The onus is kind of on brands and stakeholders in this space to share educational resources, yes, but also look at solutions for accessibility and affordability in order to drive demand, support farmers and ranchers, and regenerate the health of the planet.

Now, Kathleen, throwing it over to you. I'm really curious to hear what you feel are some of the key barriers for Cave Pets as you pursue this certification and as you work to maintain it. Does anything come to mind?

Kathleen Fleck: From a sheer just operational perspective, it was in launching the brand, working with the Regenerative Organic Alliance to license the Cave Pets brand as a Regenerative Organic Certified brand. To be regenerative organic, you have to be organic first. So you have to meet all of the requirements of organic certification. It's just a little bit above and beyond that in order to meet that next level of certification. That being said, within those brands that we talked about and those brands that are licensed currently, Cave Pets is the only brand in the pet space that is certified and has brought fully certified products to the marketplace.

We look forward to doing that more. But also just as an industry, we look forward to regenerative ingredients and more regenerative organic certified products being in the market. Whether that's under the cave pets brand or any other brands that are out there that are looking to help forward the movement of regenerative practices.

Cico Rodriguez: As far as the some of the challenges with Cave Pets itself, we spent so far almost an hour talking about ingredients and sustainability and regeneration, and nobody gives you an hour at the store shelf. So, our biggest challenge is always the education bar. Because it's a beautiful story, but beautiful stories don't necessarily make people healthier unless they do and make pets healthier unless they do. And so being able to translate the beautiful story of regenerative ingredients or whole food types of ingredients to an outcome health benefit.

We haven't gotten to do all of that work as effectively in the pet space as we have in the human space. So, we could tell you a lot of the human benefits on some of these ingredients, but the pet side isn't as fast. And so, I think educating people to say, does this beautiful story matter? And while it matters for planet Earth, everybody has to live in their everyday life. So how does it matter for my pet at home? How does it matter for me? And how does it make it easier? But I think we have to move into showing, not just telling, and I think that will accelerate the education process.

Kathleen Fleck: I was just going to say it really is an evolution, right? It's not a revolution, it's an evolution. And, you know, years ago, someone had to be the first Organic Certified brand. And when organic first came out, you know, people didn't understand what that meant. And as the movement grew and more people started to understand. I meet many people today that say, “I only eat organic or eat as much organic as possible,” because now they understand it.

And so, what we're saying is that, you know, in this evolution, regenerative organic is the next step in that evolutionary process of nutrition. And so, there is a steep learning curve. But we also do believe that, you know, very passionately, that it's the right thing to do, not just from a nutrition perspective, but from an environmental perspective and a world health perspective too.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: Yes, a rising tide floats all ship. I'm sure being an early mover in any space comes with challenges for consumer education, like we said earlier. And it doesn't help that today's consumers are increasingly skeptical about brand claims and particularly sustainability claims. We've talked about greenwashing in previous episodes, and that could be happening in this space too.

Angela, we spoke previously about how there was a number of farms out there that are flying under the radar of organic and regenerative, calling themselves such without being able to back up those claims. To me, it seems like it goes hand in hand with consumer confusion and a general skepticism towards sustainability.

Angela Jackson: It kind of also goes back to my idea of, you know, what is the definition of regenerative? I've been out on a farm and is it regenerative because they are only practicing one standard? Maybe they do cover crops. Does that mean that they're regenerative if they're not doing anything else on their farm? And how are they measuring the impact of the cover crops, you know, on their farming practices?

So regenerative is more than just the use of cover crops. And then when I say false claims, it's such a gray area because my definition of regenerative is going to be different than yours and different than my neighbor's definition of regenerative, because there really isn't one. So, I think that's going to be a continued challenge for us in general is just having that clear understanding of what is reliable and what is not reliable in terms of the claim on the package. I think it's a wild west situation right now.

Jordan Tyler: So we've talked a lot about the ROC, and knowing that it was built and continues to be grown by really passionate and experienced people in the regenerative agriculture space is really a testament to its integrity. So, congratulations to the Regenerative Organic Alliance on building a formidable certification.

But there are other certifications out there for regenerative agriculture and I'd like to explore them a little bit. So, Caitlyn, would you care to do the honors?

Caitlyn Dudas: Yeah, sure. So, I did a search before this call just so I could have the most up to date information on all the certifications out there, because it really is a massively and quickly growing space. And I found seven different certifications. ROC is one of the most prevalently used ones. And it's kind of an evolution of the organic standard. And so they were really able to use the momentum of that existing standard to expand it into Regenerative Organic Certified.

But of those seven, right, I kind of think of them in two camps. So, there's the process verified ones and there's the outcome verified ones. And when I say that, what I mean is ROC is a process standard. So that means it is very specific what you can and cannot do. So, example, right—if you're organic certified, you can't apply pesticides to your crops. And no matter where you are, again, right, Texas or Minnesota, you do the same thing. So, the process of what you can and cannot do is really what the standard is about.

But then there's another group of standards that are about outcome verification. And those outcome-based programs are really focusing again, right, going back to those outcomes. So, each farm has to demonstrate, is the soil health improving? Are you actually sequestering greenhouse gases? And if so, how much? Right? And so, they're taking those outcomes and verifying those outcomes, which gives the farmers a lot of flexibility to say, “Hey, I know my land better than anyone knows my land. Right? My landscape is different based on the ecosystem that I'm in. And I have a market here, or I have processing equipment here to process X, Y, and Z, and I can't do all of these other things.” And so, the context, right, the farmer just has a lot more oversight and independence to farm their land the way that they want, as long as they're able to demonstrate these outcomes.

And so what I'm seeing is in this space, which is a little different than the organic movement, is this kind of focus on outcomes and giving those farmers more flexibility to determine what's best for their land while still demonstrating the environment is improving, that the animals, healthcare and welfare is being managed, and that there are great social outcomes as well.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: That's a great point! Just like there is no silver bullet solution to sustainability, there's no silver bullet approach to regenerative agriculture, especially not at this early stage. So I appreciate you sharing your thoughts around that. Coming back quickly to ROC, Angela, you've been focused on the United States here, but how does the program benefit the global food system and the entire planet?

Angela Jackson: I think one of the really beautiful things about ROC is that it's global. And it is true that we can't grow everything in the United States. And I think it's really amazing to me to see the impact that it's having globally. So while we don't have any specific data that shows our market growth in the EU, we have soon to be four certifying bodies in the EU. We have four in the United States that are inspecting for ROC. We have operations in Austria, France, Greece, Italy and Turkey for a total of about 23 operators now in Europe. And then we just hosted our first ROA forum in Europe dedicated to the ROC framework.

So, we're investing in educational resources and we're supporting farmers like all over the globe because we know that the impact that this is making, actually the impact is greater in developing countries than developed countries from both a social fairness standpoint as well as animal welfare standpoint, as well as building soil health and the management of the land. So, I'm excited to see that ROC has built on ramps for those individuals that are in developing countries as well as developed and, you know, industrialized nations and countries. And so, we're able to measure the impact of this program worldwide. It's so exciting.

Angela Jackson: I think people are waking up to the idea that fortified fake foods are not the solution to long term health. You know, look at the obesity epidemic. It's again, research shows you have to eat more food of the same kind to get the same nutritional benefits than if you eat a smaller amount of a nutrient dense food. It's just common sense. Like, you know, your body knows when it's satisfied, like when it has its nutritional balance. And I'm of the belief that fortifying our foods and putting the vitamins and the minerals back in it is not the same as providing those nutrients naturally through the food as you eat them.

Jordan Tyler: Okay, so where does all of this leave us? Regenerative agriculture isn't just a buzzword. It's a solution that offers a clear framework for growing nutrients, more nutritious food, capturing carbon, building healthier ecosystems, and supporting the people and animals at the heart of our food systems. It's complex, yes, but it's also hopeful.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: And as we face rising environmental pressures, shifting consumer expectations, and the urgent need to rethink how we nourish people and pets alike, regenerative organic practices offers us a chance to move beyond sustaining to truly regenerating. And when you see that ROC label on a product's package, you're not just looking at a claim, you're looking at the proof. Proof that better is possible.

Jordan Tyler: But like we discussed earlier, real transformation will only happen when all the pieces of the puzzle fit together—consumer education, farmer support, and brand-level action. Yes, awareness is growing, but intent doesn’t always translate to dollars spent. So it’s up to all of us—brands, retailers, and advocates—to help close that gap. This means not only educating consumers, but also creating pathways for accessibility and affordability—because regenerative solutions shouldn’t be out of reach. When we do that, we don’t just support the health of pets and people—we help regenerate the entire planet.

Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Barking Mad. If you want to learn more about BSM Partners, please visit us at www.bsmpartners.net. Don't forget to subscribe on your favorite leading podcast platform and share this episode with a friend to stay current on the latest pet industry trends and conversations.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: A huge thank you to Angela, Caitlyn, Cico, and Kathleen for sharing their insights with us today. We'd also like to thank our dedicated team, Ada-Miette Thomas, Neeley Bowden, Kait Wright, Cady Wolf, and Dr. Katy Miller. And an extra thank you to Lee Ann Hagerty and Michael Johnson in support of these episodes. See you next time, folks!

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