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How Small Businesses Can Build Better Websites
Episode 138th November 2021 • Close The Loop • CallSource
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Kevin Dieny:

Hello, welcome to the Close The Loop podcast.

Kevin Dieny:

Today, we're going to be talking about how to build better websites.

Kevin Dieny:

How do small businesses build better websites?

Kevin Dieny:

How do businesses who are local businesses?

Kevin Dieny:

How are businesses that are of all types, get a better website built?

Kevin Dieny:

And this is a topic that's probably in that sphere of like, oh man, you

Kevin Dieny:

got to talk about it every six months, every couple of years again, because

Kevin Dieny:

the internet is always changing.

Kevin Dieny:

And while that I think that's true, to some extent, there is a lot of

Kevin Dieny:

what happens in websites that is core.

Kevin Dieny:

That probably doesn't change as often as we think it does.

Kevin Dieny:

And to talk about that with us today, I a really special guest.

Kevin Dieny:

I brought Ryan Lonac, on with us, and he is the president of RWL design,

Kevin Dieny:

where he leads a focused team that works with businesses and nonprofits

Kevin Dieny:

to build effective online presence's.

Kevin Dieny:

Together, they have helped many companies grow and succeed for more than 15 years.

Kevin Dieny:

So he comes with a lot of experience and over a long span of time.

Kevin Dieny:

Ryan cares about providing value and setting their agency apart

Kevin Dieny:

with dedication and integrity.

Kevin Dieny:

He and his wife have a lovely two year old, the terrible twos, I love that

Kevin Dieny:

age, and an incredible labradoodle that they love to bring and join

Kevin Dieny:

in on their adventures; hiking and exploring the Pacific Northwest.

Kevin Dieny:

So welcome, Ryan.

Ryan Lonac:

Thank you, Kevin.

Ryan Lonac:

It's great to be here.

Ryan Lonac:

I really appreciate, being on the podcast with you.

Ryan Lonac:

This is fun.

Kevin Dieny:

Yeah.

Kevin Dieny:

This is a topic that I think some businesses are like, uh, I'll only

Kevin Dieny:

worry about the website when it's time to rebuild or build my website.

Kevin Dieny:

But there are some really important things in here

Ryan Lonac:

Oh, for sure.

Ryan Lonac:

No.

Ryan Lonac:

And it's, it is true.

Ryan Lonac:

It always seems like, the website can sometimes be some of the

Ryan Lonac:

latter part of the priority list.

Ryan Lonac:

And unfortunately, I think that can impact a lot of how that marketing push results.

Ryan Lonac:

So this is a great, I'm glad we're talking about this today, because it

Ryan Lonac:

is something that's very important and something that should be top of mind

Ryan Lonac:

and in the planning phase for whether a business is starting out, or if they're

Ryan Lonac:

planning a new product line or a new push or a new market expansion, for sure.

Kevin Dieny:

Its not necessarily a once every few years type of thing,

Kevin Dieny:

or however often a business thinking about refreshing their website.

Kevin Dieny:

Because it does guide the marketing strategy, the marketing plan,

Kevin Dieny:

how a business is thinking, how am I going to acquire business?

Kevin Dieny:

How am I going to keep the business I have?

Kevin Dieny:

How am I going to continue to grow my business?

Kevin Dieny:

How that works and how that functions for each business is

Kevin Dieny:

definitely something to consider.

Kevin Dieny:

But the website is something that's come up before in other

Kevin Dieny:

conversations we've had on here.

Kevin Dieny:

And it's often been referred to as the central hub of how a

Kevin Dieny:

lot of marketing will connect.

Ryan Lonac:

And that's a good, that's actually a great point.

Ryan Lonac:

If you're starting a new marketing campaign, it's incredibly important

Ryan Lonac:

to test messaging, to think about what's going to be the funnel

Ryan Lonac:

for these marketing campaigns.

Ryan Lonac:

But a lot of times what we see a lot of customers, just don't put an

Ryan Lonac:

emphasis on what is the experience going to be when a new customer engages

Ryan Lonac:

with the ad and reaches the website.

Ryan Lonac:

That's almost as important as planning the campaign itself is what's the goal.

Ryan Lonac:

What's the outcome?

Ryan Lonac:

What are the barriers people are going to face if a company is spending money

Ryan Lonac:

on advertising because pay-per-click advertising, content marketing,

Ryan Lonac:

they all have long-term costs.

Ryan Lonac:

And if part of that cost budget doesn't include thinking about,

Ryan Lonac:

what is the user going to do?

Ryan Lonac:

When they get to the landing page or the website.

Ryan Lonac:

Then a lot of that marketing dollars can be not utilized as well,

Ryan Lonac:

because maybe they won't convert as to the needs of the company.

Kevin Dieny:

Yeah.

Kevin Dieny:

I think every business is thinking every dollar I spend here is a dollar

Kevin Dieny:

I could have spent somewhere else.

Kevin Dieny:

It's always that trade off, like opportunity costs kind of an idea.

Kevin Dieny:

And so here's a question for you, Ryan, this has cost wrapped around it.

Kevin Dieny:

Sometimes a large cost for a smaller business, but it is so important.

Kevin Dieny:

So why is a website so important for a small business?

Ryan Lonac:

I think there's a lot of really good answers to that.

Ryan Lonac:

But one of the most important ones is that the business has a platform

Ryan Lonac:

that they manage and control.

Ryan Lonac:

Social media is so important.

Ryan Lonac:

Customer interactions are vital and a lot of that, begins and happens on

Ryan Lonac:

Twitter, on Facebook, depending on your type of business, maybe LinkedIn

Ryan Lonac:

or even Instagram or Snapchat or any of the, popular social networks.

Ryan Lonac:

But those are all profiles owned by other companies and you're using

Ryan Lonac:

those profiles under their terms.

Ryan Lonac:

For the most part restrictions that are good, but some things

Ryan Lonac:

sometimes don't make sense.

Ryan Lonac:

Like for example, we had a customer that, uh, we were scratching our heads.

Ryan Lonac:

They lost access to their advertising account, on a whim.

Ryan Lonac:

And it took a couple of weeks to figure out that the platform had mistakenly

Ryan Lonac:

blocked their account and they were like, we're sorry, we didn't mean to do that.

Ryan Lonac:

But that was like two weeks where they couldn't advertise on the platform.

Ryan Lonac:

So, if all your eggs are in other people's baskets, I think

Ryan Lonac:

that can be a long-term issue.

Ryan Lonac:

On the other side of the scale, if it's a local restaurant, being able to

Ryan Lonac:

just have a dedicated place for your regular customers to look at the menu,

Ryan Lonac:

you know, it's sometimes a simple thing as that is, I'd love to get ordered

Ryan Lonac:

takeout, but how do I know what to order?

Ryan Lonac:

And even if having a website just for that is hugely vital for your core customers.

Kevin Dieny:

Yeah, I think it something where.

Kevin Dieny:

If the business has a website, there's something about credibility

Kevin Dieny:

that, that tells the consumer.

Kevin Dieny:

Whether it's a business that may not think that a website like a restaurant

Kevin Dieny:

is probably a really good example.

Kevin Dieny:

Dental practices, healthcare may think, look, they're trapped in their insurance.

Kevin Dieny:

They're going to come wherever they have to go.

Kevin Dieny:

What do we need a website for?

Kevin Dieny:

But there's a lot of reasons to have the website.

Kevin Dieny:

So do you want to highlight some of those reasons?

Ryan Lonac:

Yeah.

Ryan Lonac:

I mean, also too, you know, in today's age, everyone is researching a

Ryan Lonac:

business before they go there, right?

Ryan Lonac:

They're searching in Google, they're asking for, feedback from their friends.

Ryan Lonac:

Like, hey, I need an XYZ.

Ryan Lonac:

Who do you recommend?

Ryan Lonac:

And chances are, they're going to look at the social profiles they're

Ryan Lonac:

going to see, are they on Facebook?

Ryan Lonac:

Are they on Twitter?

Ryan Lonac:

How often are they posting?

Ryan Lonac:

What's their website?

Ryan Lonac:

Can they get the information they need from the website before

Ryan Lonac:

they make decision to call?

Ryan Lonac:

Cause that's one thing too.

Ryan Lonac:

We have remember if you put on your consumer glasses and point of view

Ryan Lonac:

as a business owner, it's easy to get tied up and just always think of

Ryan Lonac:

your business from the business side.

Ryan Lonac:

Once you stop and take a moment to think about whats your experiences when you're

Ryan Lonac:

looking for the things you need at other businesses, it's just as a consumer

Ryan Lonac:

is like, can you contact the business?

Ryan Lonac:

Do they have helpful information?

Ryan Lonac:

Does their website load, is it slow?

Ryan Lonac:

Can you access it on your phone?

Ryan Lonac:

There's all these little barriers that could prevent you from

Ryan Lonac:

choosing to call a business.

Ryan Lonac:

The website is just a great place because you can have your information there.

Ryan Lonac:

You can highlight new services, especially if you're an e-commerce store.

Ryan Lonac:

The last year, how many, there's been a lot of businesses that have had to,

Ryan Lonac:

move forward with an online e-commerce solution that maybe with the roadmap was

Ryan Lonac:

a little farther down the road and because everything that has happened, right?

Ryan Lonac:

That's been pushed up, you know, showcasing the breadth of your categories

Ryan Lonac:

or your services or products on the homepage is vital because then they

Ryan Lonac:

see, oh, they offer this, this and this.

Ryan Lonac:

They're not just selling this.

Ryan Lonac:

And that's incredibly important for e-commerce.

Ryan Lonac:

Not, not just to highlight the what's on sale or what's new, but what

Ryan Lonac:

types of products are available?

Kevin Dieny:

Yeah, that's a really big deal.

Kevin Dieny:

Business only doing one specific thing may think well...

Kevin Dieny:

People know what we do.

Kevin Dieny:

But what about packages?

Kevin Dieny:

What about other services you offer, websites that place that people

Kevin Dieny:

can see more about you that makes this becoming more important too.

Kevin Dieny:

Who is this business?

Kevin Dieny:

What do they represent?

Kevin Dieny:

What are their values?

Kevin Dieny:

Sustainability, things come up, questions like that.

Kevin Dieny:

How long have they been around for?

Kevin Dieny:

The research that consumers are doing, even if you don't believe in it, and you

Kevin Dieny:

think, oh, they're just going to call whether, they have a problem or whatever.

Kevin Dieny:

That's becoming more and more important to consumers.

Kevin Dieny:

So it's gotta become a little bit more important to businesses.

Kevin Dieny:

You also mentioned a huge point there.

Kevin Dieny:

The calamity that has happened to the world recently.

Kevin Dieny:

It's forced businesses who were like, I'm only, an in-person kind of a business

Kevin Dieny:

to then rethink well, maybe I should jump into e-commerce, e-business,

Kevin Dieny:

e-marketing, maybe I should have more of an internet based presence.

Kevin Dieny:

It does allow for scaling.

Kevin Dieny:

Whereas a business may be localized, maybe thinking well I'm only

Kevin Dieny:

serving the customers around here.

Kevin Dieny:

Now it's opened doors for businesses in a huge way.

Kevin Dieny:

Like you've mentioned.

Ryan Lonac:

Yeah.

Ryan Lonac:

And also, like you said, it humanizes a business if your blog is active.

Ryan Lonac:

Not only are you always wanting to to write about and push why the services

Ryan Lonac:

you offer are great, but you know, you can humanize, like, what's the story.

Ryan Lonac:

Why, we have this new initiative to, support a local charity.

Ryan Lonac:

There's a lot of local businesses here just north of Seattle.

Ryan Lonac:

One comes to mind, our accountant that we use, it's really neat to know how they

Ryan Lonac:

support the local arts and they make note of that and they support that on their

Ryan Lonac:

website and they make that clear and that's one way to help them identify with

Ryan Lonac:

their customers in a more personal way.

Ryan Lonac:

So there's exactly there's ways to showcase the business, on the website

Ryan Lonac:

in more than just highlighting products or services and that social

Ryan Lonac:

proof of reviews and testimonials, that's huge and it's hugely important

Ryan Lonac:

for business to have a place that can centralize and display those.

Ryan Lonac:

There are a lot of services that make it easier to get testimonials,

Ryan Lonac:

but again, it's great to have a website where you can place those.

Ryan Lonac:

That's not on the whims of another service as well.

Ryan Lonac:

And that's, I guess that's another side reason for having your own website.

Kevin Dieny:

Those are some really good points and you've laid out a lot of

Kevin Dieny:

things that some might consider, like are essential components of a website.

Kevin Dieny:

So do you think you could break down, in terms of what a company

Kevin Dieny:

should be thinking about, what are the components of a website that are

Kevin Dieny:

essential for most businesses that they should have on their website?

Kevin Dieny:

What are the basics, probably the things that we had alluded to earlier that are

Kevin Dieny:

probably not going to change as much that are typical standard norms that

Kevin Dieny:

people expect to find on a website.

Kevin Dieny:

What things should a business be thinking have to be on the website

Kevin Dieny:

to make sure that it is successful?

Ryan Lonac:

I think in the long-term, a lot of those questions are going to

Ryan Lonac:

have to involve some customer research.

Ryan Lonac:

That seems to be really evident just in a lot of customer projects

Ryan Lonac:

is that we can make guesses.

Ryan Lonac:

We can make decisions from experience or from customer feedback or previous

Ryan Lonac:

customer feedback, maybe business insider knowledge of the client, but

Ryan Lonac:

when the rubber meets the road, the customer is visiting that website.

Ryan Lonac:

They may have a completely different experience when they get there.

Ryan Lonac:

And so we have to do the best job we can to do best practices,

Ryan Lonac:

to build a good website.

Ryan Lonac:

But we also need to get that feedback once it goes live.

Ryan Lonac:

And that's, I think that's part of the conversation we've alluded to, is

Ryan Lonac:

like, how often does the website get updated, what's that feedback cycle.

Ryan Lonac:

Launching a website it's like, an introduction to a novel.

Ryan Lonac:

You're setting the stage and then once it's live, you're going to have to revisit

Ryan Lonac:

it fairly often just to make sure you're reducing those barriers that come up

Ryan Lonac:

that prevent users from taking action.

Ryan Lonac:

But as far as the website, it's great to have your value statement very clear.

Ryan Lonac:

There's a few things like we try to avoid now.

Ryan Lonac:

Like I love carousels.

Ryan Lonac:

I always have, but users for the most part, just don't interact with them.

Ryan Lonac:

There was a time period when carousels were the big thing

Ryan Lonac:

on the top of the website.

Ryan Lonac:

And what happens though is they might see the first slide.

Ryan Lonac:

They may see the second slide and then they will like never see the other slides.

Ryan Lonac:

So having that clear call to action basically that value statement and

Ryan Lonac:

then letting the user know who you are, what's the value, what's the outcome

Ryan Lonac:

of them choosing you and then some kind of call to action to let them know

Ryan Lonac:

what action you're hoping they make.

Ryan Lonac:

There's also great to have, social proof testimonials, that can be customers

Ryan Lonac:

you've worked with, or if it's big, if you're a business that has worked

Ryan Lonac:

with, common names, listing those businesses that you've worked with,

Ryan Lonac:

that can be a huge credibility boost.

Ryan Lonac:

People will scan websites, they won't read everything until they do,

Ryan Lonac:

which is kind of a funny thought.

Ryan Lonac:

The idea is that writing for the web is different than writing for

Ryan Lonac:

a paper or a novel or an email.

Ryan Lonac:

Right?

Ryan Lonac:

So having clear defined headers that can guide a user down a page

Ryan Lonac:

and then let them stop to read more information when it resonates.

Ryan Lonac:

There's an idea of what's called a screen full.

Ryan Lonac:

There's the hero of the page where the top above the fold, which is usually

Ryan Lonac:

the portion of the screen of a website you see before you start scrolling down.

Ryan Lonac:

We consider a screen full, like every section of the website, that's

Ryan Lonac:

visible on one screen at a time.

Ryan Lonac:

If the hero section is the top above the fold, as you start scrolling

Ryan Lonac:

down, the next row of content would be the next screen full.

Ryan Lonac:

Having a clear way to contact that business or to take an action on every

Ryan Lonac:

screen full is helpful, especially in the days where, we're designing for

Ryan Lonac:

companies that the experience, the websites on the desktop, it's on a

Ryan Lonac:

laptop, it's on a tablet, it's on a phone.

Ryan Lonac:

So having that website scale down so that when you're browsing on the phone

Ryan Lonac:

versus browsing on a desktop, you're not just seeing walls of text on a phone

Ryan Lonac:

and really great white space on desktop.

Ryan Lonac:

You're seeing the website scale appropriately and every screen

Ryan Lonac:

full, whether it's the height of the iPhone or the height of a

Ryan Lonac:

desktop, there's ways to contact that business if that's the outcome.

Ryan Lonac:

I think having an about page, about pages are huge because Kevin, like

Ryan Lonac:

you were alluding to is, what's the longevity of the business?

Ryan Lonac:

What's their mission?

Ryan Lonac:

What's their goal?

Ryan Lonac:

Who's on the team?

Ryan Lonac:

Having a blog is great for long-term marketing.

Ryan Lonac:

Organic search is fantastic in the longterm because that can help you

Ryan Lonac:

drive traffic to your site, without relying on paying for traffic.

Ryan Lonac:

It's a longer term goal, but having that content is there.

Ryan Lonac:

And then the great thing too is if you have a blog, not only can you do, posts

Ryan Lonac:

that talk about your services or promote your services or answer questions.

Ryan Lonac:

They can also be like, FAQ's, it could be, a common question

Ryan Lonac:

about a product or a service that keeps coming up again, and again.

Ryan Lonac:

You could do an in-depth article to answer that and then that could be one resource.

Ryan Lonac:

Your customer service team could refer people to.

Ryan Lonac:

There's great ways to integrate that.

Ryan Lonac:

Making it easy to contact a business, whether it's through a live

Ryan Lonac:

chat, live chat can be effective.

Ryan Lonac:

There's a lot of chat bot options there.

Ryan Lonac:

You can link to articles.

Ryan Lonac:

You can have a chat bot that helps find people, but if you do do a

Ryan Lonac:

chat bot always make it clear.

Ryan Lonac:

How to get in touch with a real person.

Ryan Lonac:

I think that's a barrier that people forget about is they want these

Ryan Lonac:

automated chatbots to feed people to FAQ's or to support things.

Ryan Lonac:

But, always give an option to talk to somebody if it's possible.

Ryan Lonac:

Contact pages, making it clear how to contact someone.

Ryan Lonac:

The service pages are really important.

Ryan Lonac:

You have to plan and think ahead, what's the problem the user's having.

Ryan Lonac:

What's the solution your business is providing, and what's the

Ryan Lonac:

outcome that, that person's going to have by choosing your business

Ryan Lonac:

and making that clear on the page.

Ryan Lonac:

And sometimes what we think is clear is not always what users think is clear.

Ryan Lonac:

And that's why I'm so glad we're doing this podcast because there's

Ryan Lonac:

this mindset that I think everyone has to get into is that when the

Ryan Lonac:

website is done, the page is launched.

Ryan Lonac:

That's just the beginning.

Ryan Lonac:

And that can be hard to budget for, but if, if you stick with it and you

Ryan Lonac:

watch what problems users are having and address those problems, then

Ryan Lonac:

those pages will be more successful.

Ryan Lonac:

The website will be more successful and the business will be more successful.

Ryan Lonac:

Another plug there's a service that we love to use called Wynter.

Ryan Lonac:

They do incredible copy and messaging testing, which is sort of a new thing.

Ryan Lonac:

User testing has been around a long time.

Ryan Lonac:

We like to do a five second test is fantastic, where you take a screenshot

Ryan Lonac:

and you select the panel and then they get five seconds to look at it.

Ryan Lonac:

And then you ask one question, like, what is this page?

Ryan Lonac:

What product is selling?

Ryan Lonac:

Where was the contact button?

Ryan Lonac:

Things like that.

Ryan Lonac:

And if they can't answer that in five seconds, then you

Ryan Lonac:

know, there's a design problem.

Ryan Lonac:

But you don't know unless you test it right.

Ryan Lonac:

Same way with messaging with Wynter, you can do, content testing.

Ryan Lonac:

And so once you've spent all that time writing the homepage or writing the

Ryan Lonac:

about page or the service landing page.

Ryan Lonac:

You can test with your own demographic panel or you can use

Ryan Lonac:

their selected panel and they give really good feedback and they have

Ryan Lonac:

a great set of default questions.

Ryan Lonac:

They're great because then you can see, is the messaging clear?

Ryan Lonac:

Does it resonate?

Ryan Lonac:

Does it communicate what you're wanting to communicate?

Ryan Lonac:

Because the problem we've seen a lot with customers over the years is that

Ryan Lonac:

they'll just spend so much on advertising, but then never address the website.

Ryan Lonac:

They're sending all these people to the website, but then once they get to

Ryan Lonac:

the website, the messaging of the ads does not match the messaging of the

Ryan Lonac:

webpage because maybe it's out of date.

Ryan Lonac:

And then they don't know what to do and they bounce.

Ryan Lonac:

And then they're like, well, we're spending money on advertising,

Ryan Lonac:

but we're not getting customers.

Ryan Lonac:

So that's, that's almost like you gotta close the loop, close the loop.

Kevin Dieny:

Yeah, exactly.

Kevin Dieny:

So you'd laid out a lot of really, really awesome essentials

Kevin Dieny:

there for building a website.

Kevin Dieny:

And I want to touch on something that's been an undercurrent through this whole

Kevin Dieny:

thing, which is, what is the business trying to use the website to achieve?

Kevin Dieny:

You mentioned they're trying to, you know, there's FAQ's or maybe

Kevin Dieny:

we're trying to educate people, is that what our websites for?

Kevin Dieny:

You mentioned menus, right?

Kevin Dieny:

We're trying to help people understand what it is we do.

Kevin Dieny:

You mentioned chat, are we just trying to engage, are we trying to

Kevin Dieny:

bridge a conversation with people?

Kevin Dieny:

You also mentioned customers, are we just, at the end of the day selling?

Kevin Dieny:

What are the purposes behind a website?

Kevin Dieny:

And what is it a business's ultimately using a website, from the

Kevin Dieny:

business perspective, to achieve?

Ryan Lonac:

That's a really great point and it's easy to skip over.

Ryan Lonac:

A homepage, for example, doesn't have to do everything for an organization.

Ryan Lonac:

A service page, doesn't have to do everything.

Ryan Lonac:

And I think that was part of the problem, like 10 years ago with the idea of

Ryan Lonac:

those really fun, fun, fancy sliders.

Ryan Lonac:

Everything was trying to be everything on the homepage.

Ryan Lonac:

I think that's something the business has to decide, or maybe he gets

Ryan Lonac:

help to decide of, what's the goal?

Ryan Lonac:

What are they trying to work with?

Ryan Lonac:

And that's the same, as I love that you bring this up.

Ryan Lonac:

Cause it's the same on social media is the same on your Facebook page.

Ryan Lonac:

It's the same with this podcast, what is the outcome?

Ryan Lonac:

What is the purpose?

Ryan Lonac:

And what are we trying to do?

Ryan Lonac:

The size of the website kinda needs to basically be the size of

Ryan Lonac:

the objectives of the business.

Ryan Lonac:

And how does that get realized and how many pages does it

Ryan Lonac:

take to answer those questions?

Ryan Lonac:

Google has done a lot in search over the last 20 years, right?

Ryan Lonac:

Like, think about where it started, where it is now.

Ryan Lonac:

they're always pushing out updates.

Ryan Lonac:

How Google indexes a business is always changing.

Ryan Lonac:

And I, but I think the one constant thing that a business can do is make sure

Ryan Lonac:

that there's good content on the page.

Ryan Lonac:

That's written by them or written for them.

Ryan Lonac:

That's not copied from somewhere else that answers the questions that

Ryan Lonac:

communicates what they're trying to present to the users for their

Ryan Lonac:

services and reduce that biggest thing is just like reducing those barriers.

Ryan Lonac:

I ordered some takeout for dinner yesterday and it was

Ryan Lonac:

kinda hard finding the menu.

Ryan Lonac:

It's a place that I go and love, but we were like, well, let's try

Ryan Lonac:

something like something new on the menu, but it was hard to find.

Ryan Lonac:

So I think if you're a restaurant, the website's always at the

Ryan Lonac:

bottom of the list for sure.

Ryan Lonac:

Cause there's so many costs of launching the kitchen, getting

Ryan Lonac:

employees, getting all the certificates and the local codes, regulations.

Ryan Lonac:

The website's always kind of last thing, but if your purpose is a restaurant,

Ryan Lonac:

then, making the menu really accessible, really easy to find, and also too...

Ryan Lonac:

Think about the customer experience.

Ryan Lonac:

Most of the time, if someone's looking up your menu, they're

Ryan Lonac:

probably looking on their phone.

Ryan Lonac:

So having a contact button for a click to call.

Ryan Lonac:

I see a lot of restaurants, they don't have a button that can just trigger

Ryan Lonac:

a phone call with their phone number.

Ryan Lonac:

The phone number is just text on the page.

Ryan Lonac:

Having that a clickable link, is huge.

Ryan Lonac:

Just something like that.

Ryan Lonac:

We haven't really talked about accessibility too.

Ryan Lonac:

Having the website up to date modern, and accessible is huge because

Ryan Lonac:

there's a large portion of everyone's customer base that have disabilities

Ryan Lonac:

of some kind that influences how they use and interact with the web.

Ryan Lonac:

There's many, many different types of issues that a person can be facing.

Ryan Lonac:

I think a lot more people have some issue than people recognize.

Ryan Lonac:

And there's a great service that we have to recommend to almost all

Ryan Lonac:

our customers is called AccessiBe.

Ryan Lonac:

Basically what it does it's a great JavaScript solution that goes on the

Ryan Lonac:

page and then parses it and looks at traditional patterns of web design and

Ryan Lonac:

sort of smooths out the wrinkles so that, someone visiting the site has

Ryan Lonac:

a great tool set to adjust font size, colors, accessibility, descriptions, easy

Ryan Lonac:

access to navigation, whether through keyboard or through screen readers, and

Ryan Lonac:

they help your site be more accessible.

Ryan Lonac:

It's always great to be compliant with those new standards, but the specs for

Ryan Lonac:

those are really difficult and long.

Ryan Lonac:

So a service like this is so great because it can help a lot

Ryan Lonac:

of people use the website that may not have been able to before.

Ryan Lonac:

So that's another thing to think about.

Ryan Lonac:

And that's an ongoing cost.

Ryan Lonac:

I feel like every year there's like some new costs, like there was SSL.

Ryan Lonac:

That was a new cost before their websites didn't need to be secured.

Ryan Lonac:

Well, every site needs to be secure now that's the one thing that

Ryan Lonac:

everything we put on the list.

Ryan Lonac:

But there's great solutions for that.

Ryan Lonac:

Let's encrypt is a fantastic organization that's funded by almost every major tech

Ryan Lonac:

company to provide free SSL certificates.

Ryan Lonac:

The entry level barred entry on that has, is so much lower

Ryan Lonac:

because you can use Let's Encrypt.

Ryan Lonac:

Same with now Accessibee.

Ryan Lonac:

It used to be really, really hard to make sure the website was accessible.

Ryan Lonac:

It's a little easier now, that costs money, but that's okay because

Ryan Lonac:

there's a larger benefit for it.

Ryan Lonac:

I think that's an important thing that needs to get addressed too.

Kevin Dieny:

Yeah, there's a few things in there that I think

Kevin Dieny:

are really, really important.

Kevin Dieny:

I didn't even consider the accessibility component of this, which is a huge deal,

Kevin Dieny:

especially something that has come off and come up for me, like during testing.

Kevin Dieny:

But one of the things I like to think about is some pages

Kevin Dieny:

definitely have a purpose.

Kevin Dieny:

If my website is built for acquisition, then it's going to be super aligned

Kevin Dieny:

on SEO, super aligned on ad keywords.

Kevin Dieny:

I really want to acquire people.

Kevin Dieny:

It's going to be ultra designed to bring people in.

Kevin Dieny:

Now, if that's all it is, then that website is going to

Kevin Dieny:

fall on the next two things.

Kevin Dieny:

I got to get people to scroll, to click, to navigate.

Kevin Dieny:

The behavioral bit will drop, will fall through.

Kevin Dieny:

And then finally the conversion part, right?

Kevin Dieny:

If all you're focused on is getting people to the site and there's

Kevin Dieny:

no way for people to contact your business, that's a fall through too.

Kevin Dieny:

Right.

Kevin Dieny:

So you have to do the three and juggling the three is a little difficult, I

Kevin Dieny:

think, because you're trying to bring the right people to your site, how

Kevin Dieny:

interested are they at this time?

Kevin Dieny:

What's their behavior?

Kevin Dieny:

Are they clicking, consuming, reading, watching a video, scrolling, you know,

Kevin Dieny:

are, are they just bouncing that sort of, even if it's the right people that

Kevin Dieny:

sort of indicates maybe not right now.

Kevin Dieny:

Once they've decided that they want to contact your business,

Kevin Dieny:

is there an easy way for them to do that somewhere, somehow?

Kevin Dieny:

And so, doing the three is difficult because you might make a lot of your

Kevin Dieny:

website about educating people, but then not as much heavy on converting them.

Kevin Dieny:

Some websites today are all about converting and it gets a little

Kevin Dieny:

heavy there, go ahead Ryan.

Ryan Lonac:

Yeah, I think that can makes another point too.

Ryan Lonac:

If you're just always selling, then that is exhausting as a user, right?

Ryan Lonac:

One other way to lighten that is building your newsletter list.

Ryan Lonac:

That's a huge thing that can be centered around your website.

Ryan Lonac:

You can have interstitial popups, that help someone or maybe they offer them a

Ryan Lonac:

coupon as a way of exchanging that email.

Ryan Lonac:

That email list is huge and still email today is still one

Ryan Lonac:

of the highest ROI channels.

Ryan Lonac:

It's worth every dollar to get someone into your email list,

Ryan Lonac:

just so that you can message them.

Ryan Lonac:

You can tell them about sales.

Ryan Lonac:

You can tell them about new initiatives and you can humanize.

Ryan Lonac:

Every email doesn't have to be a sales email.

Ryan Lonac:

You get a lot of emails from large companies that are just always

Ryan Lonac:

pushing the sales, and that can work.

Ryan Lonac:

That's fine.

Ryan Lonac:

But you know, if you can differentiate by offering that human side, like

Ryan Lonac:

that's another way to bridge that gap and, and make a more holistic

Ryan Lonac:

experience for the customers.

Kevin Dieny:

I think some businesses also look at this too, like, okay,

Kevin Dieny:

I put all these resources and all this time and effort and energy and

Kevin Dieny:

got all the experts in and built a really amazing website five years ago.

Kevin Dieny:

Maybe eight years ago.

Kevin Dieny:

So you brought it up earlier, so how often should a business be re updating

Kevin Dieny:

their website or, and then if you could also touch on how often should a

Kevin Dieny:

business be trying to optimize or improve the current website that they have?

Kevin Dieny:

Cause you said getting the website builds kind of the starting line.

Ryan Lonac:

A lot of it depends on the size of the business and the scale.

Ryan Lonac:

You and I met through CXL.

Ryan Lonac:

They have amazing resources for learning how to do a lot of these things.

Ryan Lonac:

Of testing and researching and understanding the behavior of users.

Ryan Lonac:

A lot of talks or a lot of their articles referenced booking.com and they're always

Ryan Lonac:

testing, like they're running dozens, dozens of tests, like simultaneously

Ryan Lonac:

because they have enough traffic to do so.

Ryan Lonac:

That testing mindset is, is we present our best idea.

Ryan Lonac:

Our best guess of what we think is gonna be useful, but you have to set aside the

Ryan Lonac:

ego and be humble and be like, okay, how does this actually work for our users?

Ryan Lonac:

And they're just gathering it because they want to provide the

Ryan Lonac:

best answers for their customers.

Ryan Lonac:

They want them to find the best hotel, the best airlines for their customers.

Ryan Lonac:

And I think that applies to all the businesses too.

Ryan Lonac:

Testing is a regular thing.

Ryan Lonac:

The great example of, of like when we did this optimized process five years ago,

Ryan Lonac:

you know, just in the last five years, it was in huge legal changes in privacy.

Ryan Lonac:

So if you're business did all that work for optimizing, you're probably

Ryan Lonac:

using cookies and you've got to have a cookie consent and a cookie policy.

Ryan Lonac:

Otherwise your ad accounts might get flagged because they don't

Ryan Lonac:

have that or the privacy policy.

Ryan Lonac:

But also too, you might have trouble down the road and a lot of that stuff

Ryan Lonac:

is still being tested in courts.

Ryan Lonac:

But you know, it's better to be on the compliance side,

Ryan Lonac:

than the non-compliant side.

Ryan Lonac:

Just from the standpoint of limiting liability, having that

Ryan Lonac:

website updated regularly is good.

Ryan Lonac:

Plus the other side is, with how Google algorithms change

Ryan Lonac:

speed is a big indicator.

Ryan Lonac:

What was fast five years ago is not fast now.

Ryan Lonac:

And that's just because of how the technology changes.

Ryan Lonac:

We went from HTTP one now we're HTTP two and there's HTTP three.

Ryan Lonac:

And that protocol of basically how browsers connect to servers change.

Ryan Lonac:

There's the big change of how it prioritizes loading files.

Ryan Lonac:

Before the idea was okay, let's bundle everything into one, JavaScript file one

Ryan Lonac:

CSS file and make it as small as possible.

Ryan Lonac:

So there's only one connection.

Ryan Lonac:

But now, now it's like, oh, we can get by with, many connections to the same domain.

Ryan Lonac:

So let's split up the file so that they can download asynchronously altogether.

Ryan Lonac:

Those technology shifts happen probably on a year and a half to two year cycle.

Ryan Lonac:

This is a great example.

Ryan Lonac:

Images are typically the largest bottleneck on a page loading.

Ryan Lonac:

If the images aren't optimized, you could be adding multiple seconds of load time.

Ryan Lonac:

Just in the last few years, there's many better ways to load images.

Ryan Lonac:

The standard strategy used to be to lazy load the images if the image wasn't

Ryan Lonac:

on the screen was that on the current screen full, it would get delayed

Ryan Lonac:

to loading until maybe just before.

Ryan Lonac:

And you had to use JavaScript to do that.

Ryan Lonac:

Now with these wonderful evergreen browsers, Chrome Firefox, Edge,

Ryan Lonac:

they can do that natively now.

Ryan Lonac:

You probably don't need that old JavaScript file.

Ryan Lonac:

And then that way you can prune stuff you don't need.

Ryan Lonac:

And that will make the site faster too.

Ryan Lonac:

Because you can do a lot of that stuff natively now.

Ryan Lonac:

Technological changes in the hosting of websites that has changed that could

Ryan Lonac:

make your site faster, which would make your site more profitable as well.

Ryan Lonac:

I think a business needs to have an annual budget for regular testing, because

Ryan Lonac:

think about this too, let's say a website launches in January and then a new product

Ryan Lonac:

or a new marketing push starts in June.

Ryan Lonac:

The messaging in January may not match the messaging needed

Ryan Lonac:

for that campaign in June.

Ryan Lonac:

So that's one reason why I like to try to always get feedback from users.

Ryan Lonac:

Hotjar is a great service that websites can use to get feedback.

Ryan Lonac:

You can do polls, you can do mouse tracking is really, really a neat feature.

Ryan Lonac:

If you have a desktop presence, cause you can see if they're browsing and then their

Ryan Lonac:

mouse gets really erratic, that means, oh, they're, they're probably frustrated.

Ryan Lonac:

Which is fine.

Ryan Lonac:

It's great to know these things because then you can fix it.

Ryan Lonac:

If you know users are having a frustrating experience, then you

Ryan Lonac:

can address that and then you can give them a better experience.

Ryan Lonac:

Cause that's what we want to do.

Ryan Lonac:

Right.

Ryan Lonac:

We want to help the users make the best decision.

Kevin Dieny:

Yeah.

Kevin Dieny:

Yeah.

Kevin Dieny:

That is absolutely true.

Kevin Dieny:

That the better you serve your consumers, the better and happier and the easier

Kevin Dieny:

they're going to find their way through the path that you want them to go through.

Kevin Dieny:

Everything you've just said, brought up something partway through that.

Kevin Dieny:

I was like, I got to remember to ask this.

Kevin Dieny:

I just remembered it again right now.

Kevin Dieny:

And that was okay.

Kevin Dieny:

A business has decided they want to build or rebuild or something

Kevin Dieny:

to get their website going.

Kevin Dieny:

Right.

Kevin Dieny:

There's what I would call on the shelf, like template types of sites.

Kevin Dieny:

A lot of entrepreneurs are going to be like, look, I don't have any money.

Kevin Dieny:

I'm just going to grab a Squarespace or Wix or a WordPress theme, and

Kevin Dieny:

I'm going to throw it in there.

Kevin Dieny:

I'm just stuck with what I have and move forward.

Kevin Dieny:

But at some point, when they're ready when they're their businesses

Kevin Dieny:

that small business and they're ready to pay attention to it,

Kevin Dieny:

get it going, invest in it.

Kevin Dieny:

What are some of the things that you would suggest they do in the next 90

Kevin Dieny:

days of beginning this process, what are some really important things they should

Kevin Dieny:

consider to build a better website?

Ryan Lonac:

I think you have to do you're best trying to do customer interviews.

Ryan Lonac:

Schedule a few, especially using this on like recurring customers.

Ryan Lonac:

Try to figure out what troubles do they have?

Ryan Lonac:

What was, what was their experience?

Ryan Lonac:

What was the one thing that almost stopped them from buying

Ryan Lonac:

from you or contacting you?

Ryan Lonac:

And that's something that you can start asking even right now, before you do a

Ryan Lonac:

redesign or an expansion of your website.

Ryan Lonac:

I always try to think like A, how do they find you ask how they, how they found you.

Ryan Lonac:

And, what was the one thing that almost stopped them from choosing you?

Ryan Lonac:

Those two pieces alone can be really valuable.

Ryan Lonac:

And if you just ask that and you get a steady flow over like a couple months,

Ryan Lonac:

that's some really good actionable data.

Ryan Lonac:

And that can start small.

Ryan Lonac:

At launch make sure that there is a site map.

Ryan Lonac:

Site map is submitted.

Ryan Lonac:

Make sure that there is SSL.

Ryan Lonac:

One thing that actually we've seen a lot of people forget to do is

Ryan Lonac:

if you're using a contact form and that contact form is using a mailing

Ryan Lonac:

service, a transactional mail service to send them the notification.

Ryan Lonac:

To make sure that that transactional outgoing email has the correct DNS, so

Ryan Lonac:

that it's authenticated to your domain.

Ryan Lonac:

Are they authorized to send the email to a customer A on your behalf?

Ryan Lonac:

And that's one little check thing.

Ryan Lonac:

Analytics is always huge to make sure you have set up.

Ryan Lonac:

If you're doing analytics, you want to make sure you're having a privacy policy,

Ryan Lonac:

a cookie policy, cookie consents banner.

Ryan Lonac:

Those are all things now, even if you're in the United States, not every state

Ryan Lonac:

requires that, that consent for cookies.

Ryan Lonac:

So ever since 2018, that's been a big thing.

Ryan Lonac:

You want to make sure that's active.

Ryan Lonac:

The only tricky thing though is to consider, even if you use a

Ryan Lonac:

cookie compliant or GDPR compliant, analytics, you're still probably

Ryan Lonac:

using cookies in some fashion.

Ryan Lonac:

Like if you're embedding a video or you have social sharing buttons, so

Ryan Lonac:

chances are, you're still probably going to need a cookie consent banner,

Ryan Lonac:

even if you're just using analytics.

Ryan Lonac:

One thing we try to always do too, is if you're launching, if you're doing

Ryan Lonac:

a relaunch, try to, look at all the URLs that are in search and you can

Ryan Lonac:

do that with search console, or you can even just do a Google search and

Ryan Lonac:

do a site search and just find all the URLs that, Google has listed and

Ryan Lonac:

are there redirects to the new pages.

Ryan Lonac:

You want to limit 4 0 4 is as much as possible.

Ryan Lonac:

404s would be like a, not found error page because that just takes

Ryan Lonac:

away your gamut of space on Google.

Ryan Lonac:

So like making sure that the links, if you do a URL structure change, make sure

Ryan Lonac:

that those get redirected accordingly.

Ryan Lonac:

So you don't lose those search listings.

Ryan Lonac:

Making sure that, Google local, your profile set up with, your hours,

Ryan Lonac:

your information, your contact.

Ryan Lonac:

You can also use it like a mini social network.

Ryan Lonac:

Like you can post, if you post an update on Facebook, you can

Ryan Lonac:

also post that on your Google local listing, which is helpful.

Ryan Lonac:

If you're in an area with a large Microsoft presence, then, Bing local

Ryan Lonac:

pages is worth considering too.

Ryan Lonac:

Moz local is really cool.

Ryan Lonac:

Moz is a great platform for understanding, how your site is

Ryan Lonac:

ranking and how to research and better position your site for ranking.

Ryan Lonac:

But one of their, one of their services is a local feature.

Ryan Lonac:

Just helps you keep your information up to date on various local citations or,

Ryan Lonac:

or properties and they can use Google local and Bing as sort of the canonical

Ryan Lonac:

listings, and then use that data to submit it to all the other search directories.

Ryan Lonac:

That that's a helpful thing.

Ryan Lonac:

That's pretty minimal cost.

Ryan Lonac:

Making sure that your social profiles have the right links that they're

Ryan Lonac:

interlinked to the website, all that.

Ryan Lonac:

Making sure that the site is working, that, the hosting is squared away.

Ryan Lonac:

You don't want to launch a big campaign or new or service and trigger that ad spend

Ryan Lonac:

and realize there's like a JavaScript error that's preventing the contact form.

Ryan Lonac:

Test that stuff, which can get forgotten for sure.

Ryan Lonac:

I mean, we've done that even before.

Ryan Lonac:

No matter what scale of business, think about like, like

Ryan Lonac:

Kevin, you had a great point.

Ryan Lonac:

What's the purpose of this page?

Ryan Lonac:

What are we hoping the user to do?

Ryan Lonac:

Are we helping the user understand and know what to do?

Ryan Lonac:

And that can be as simple or that can be a complicated sale, right?

Ryan Lonac:

That can be, range of difficulty of objective, but, it's something

Ryan Lonac:

that you can take, pause and consider at any scale of business.

Kevin Dieny:

Wow, so I would say if you were to draw three main

Kevin Dieny:

bullet points from this episode, I would say the first one would be.

Kevin Dieny:

My websites hugely important, no matter who and what I am.

Kevin Dieny:

So what does that mean?

Kevin Dieny:

That means pretty much most of your marketing is going to use a

Kevin Dieny:

website, like a nervous system.

Kevin Dieny:

It's going to be the hub of a lot of email, a lot of advertisements.

Kevin Dieny:

A lot of your branding's coming from there.

Kevin Dieny:

The designing of everything comes from there.

Kevin Dieny:

You're going to learn a ton about your consumers on your website.

Kevin Dieny:

There's so many tools to help you understand and get a better idea of them.

Kevin Dieny:

It's really a critical place.

Kevin Dieny:

The second thing you may look on it as the website has to be serving the business.

Kevin Dieny:

It's built for consumers, but it's got to serve the business.

Kevin Dieny:

And by that, I mean, the business has to know what's going on there.

Kevin Dieny:

They have to have an idea of what tests are doing there, what the

Kevin Dieny:

purpose of its pages are, what it's trying to get out of the website.

Kevin Dieny:

Get consumers, get sales, get more interaction, educate people,

Kevin Dieny:

and they have to have a good foundation of what that's doing.

Kevin Dieny:

I don't think it's, a...

Kevin Dieny:

have someone else build it for me, it's built and then I never look at it again.

Kevin Dieny:

It's got to be something that is, is actually serving the business.

Kevin Dieny:

Not necessarily getting in the way, eating up budget, just to eat a budget.

Kevin Dieny:

There's gotta be a more profound purpose for it.

Kevin Dieny:

And there, there are tons of them and you can get help figuring that out.

Kevin Dieny:

And you can find people who know what they're talking about, who

Kevin Dieny:

can help you, who can guide you.

Kevin Dieny:

It's something that's so hard for businesses who are wearing a lot of hats

Kevin Dieny:

to switch to okay, right now, I'm building this and over here, I'm doing marketing.

Kevin Dieny:

And over here, I'm trying to have an equal balance of my life and my hours

Kevin Dieny:

and trying to stay alive and healthy.

Kevin Dieny:

I wouldn't say maybe the best word to call it is a mess, but that's

Kevin Dieny:

sorta what it sometimes feels like.

Kevin Dieny:

I think if you put some time into getting the website built, that's the first

Kevin Dieny:

part, like Ryan said, the second part is, okay, now I've got the website.

Kevin Dieny:

How do I make sure that all the guesses and assumptions we made, which

Kevin Dieny:

is pretty much a lot, are working?

Kevin Dieny:

Start with the most important thing.

Kevin Dieny:

I would usually suggest start with the thing that's closest to the sale,

Kevin Dieny:

because that's probably gonna mean dollars and cents and then work back.

Ryan Lonac:

That's a really good point.

Ryan Lonac:

That's a really good point.

Ryan Lonac:

Yeah.

Ryan Lonac:

Like start at the end of the funnel.

Ryan Lonac:

When you start in your, in your optimizations versus the broad view.

Ryan Lonac:

That's great point.

Kevin Dieny:

I always start there and it's usually because well, okay, I can justify

Kevin Dieny:

my tests because it's affecting dollars.

Kevin Dieny:

The visitors are super critical, but it's not in the bandwidth of every

Kevin Dieny:

business to be able to run a thousand tests and tests are so important.

Kevin Dieny:

So it's like, I need, a thousand, 10,000 visitors, it's going to

Kevin Dieny:

take me six months to get that.

Kevin Dieny:

So if I'm going to spend six months testing, only one thing, that one

Kevin Dieny:

thing has got to be important.

Kevin Dieny:

That one thing has got to be useful.

Kevin Dieny:

There is some technical stuff that has gone on in this.

Kevin Dieny:

And that's looked at like, maybe I shouldn't be doing this, but it is

Kevin Dieny:

something, a business owner can.

Kevin Dieny:

They don't necessarily have to be the expert the rocket scientist here.

Kevin Dieny:

There's proper terminology for this, but at the same time, it can be translated

Kevin Dieny:

in a way that makes sense to you.

Kevin Dieny:

If someone who can help explain that to you might be a good way to get started.

Kevin Dieny:

You're not necessarily looking to walk away with a PhD in web design here.

Kevin Dieny:

A lot of businesses can get by, by having that fundamental understanding

Kevin Dieny:

of, okay, I'm just trying to accomplish this on this page.

Kevin Dieny:

I don't need to necessarily know all about the CSS, the JavaScript, the HTML.

Kevin Dieny:

It can be, you can look at it in a simple way.

Kevin Dieny:

There are critical components to look at in a technical way and understand,

Kevin Dieny:

okay, this is essentially what their function is and breaking it down.

Kevin Dieny:

So it, it helps.

Kevin Dieny:

I think business owners not be so scared.

Kevin Dieny:

Let's say of all that's wrapped up in this.

Ryan Lonac:

Yeah, that's a great, that's a really good point too.

Ryan Lonac:

You shouldn't be afraid to make changes, right?

Ryan Lonac:

You kind of know if it's not working, if you're not seeing results.

Ryan Lonac:

So even if you don't have a lot of traffic, like don't focus

Ryan Lonac:

on changing a button color, change on change something big.

Ryan Lonac:

Yeah, like swap out the image on the hero and the text and

Ryan Lonac:

see if that makes a change, do bigger changes at the same time.

Ryan Lonac:

If there's not enough traffic to get really focused feedback.

Ryan Lonac:

And try things and don't be afraid to try things.

Ryan Lonac:

There's a lot of tools out there, like Git that can save a

Ryan Lonac:

timeline of what the website was.

Ryan Lonac:

So if you make a change, you can always roll it back.

Ryan Lonac:

A lot of hosts too have versioning, so you can always roll back

Ryan Lonac:

to a different version if that version needs to get changed.

Ryan Lonac:

There's no reason not to try and not to try to make these changes and adjust.

Ryan Lonac:

When you're making these changes, don't make changes for the sake of changes.

Ryan Lonac:

It's easy to say, oh, our websites, five years old and it looks

Ryan Lonac:

outdated, we've all seen it, right?

Ryan Lonac:

There's examples of rebranding, right?

Ryan Lonac:

A brand will just rebrand their business.

Ryan Lonac:

And it falls flat because people are so attached to their old, the

Ryan Lonac:

old brand icon or the brand logo or the logo type, letter type.

Ryan Lonac:

And then they can't find the business when they're at the store.

Ryan Lonac:

So same kind of thing with a website where, don't make changes for the sake

Ryan Lonac:

of changes, make changes to help your customers, have a better experience.

Kevin Dieny:

I totally recommend doing a little bit of research.

Kevin Dieny:

This is one of those things that the website is so important to the business.

Kevin Dieny:

I wouldn't slate it as a low priority, like when it comes

Kevin Dieny:

time to actually doing it.

Kevin Dieny:

I would do the research that was mentioned.

Kevin Dieny:

I would make sure that we're getting this done right.

Kevin Dieny:

And having something that's done right.

Kevin Dieny:

It makes it a lot easier for them.

Kevin Dieny:

If you're like, hey, every five years, I'm gonna do this for the next five

Kevin Dieny:

years for it to make a big difference.

Kevin Dieny:

Because if the website declines at 10% a year...

Kevin Dieny:

After five years, you're looking at 50% less conversions than you had, if

Kevin Dieny:

everything else held constant, you're looking at a loss of 50% in five years.

Kevin Dieny:

So how important, how much it declines, how much it benefits your

Kevin Dieny:

business, how big of a jump it has.

Kevin Dieny:

It's all so critically important.

Kevin Dieny:

So website is a very serious, part of the business to consider, besides it's

Kevin Dieny:

another expense hah hah marketing has.

Ryan Lonac:

Right.

Ryan Lonac:

Well, you, but you bring up a really, really good point, right?

Ryan Lonac:

You don't have to make huge gains in there.

Ryan Lonac:

You bring it like a drop of 10% per year.

Ryan Lonac:

If you just make a small increase per month over a long period of time,

Ryan Lonac:

like that that's positive motion.

Ryan Lonac:

So you don't have to see skyrocketing advances every month, every

Ryan Lonac:

year, if you're making progress.

Kevin Dieny:

Yeah, we looked at it like compounded returns through

Kevin Dieny:

experimentation, testing, and website optimization are huge.

Kevin Dieny:

Especially when we are dealing with, average conversion rates

Kevin Dieny:

of, you know, 2% to 12% or something is in that worldly range.

Kevin Dieny:

So, yeah, I think we've really, I think we could really, there are

Kevin Dieny:

entire podcasts dedicated websites.

Kevin Dieny:

I know, but, uh, we've, we've glossed over this topic pretty well.

Kevin Dieny:

I hope all our listeners got a lot out of this and that you have a

Kevin Dieny:

good footing for building a website.

Kevin Dieny:

So again, again, Ryan, thank you for coming on.

Ryan Lonac:

You're welcome, Kevin.

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