Karen Wagnon, a certified human behavior specialist and parenting coach, shares her transformative journey in understanding the complexities of parenting. With over two decades of experience, Karen's insights stem from her personal struggles with her son Kyle, who defied the traditional approaches she had grown up with. The conversation dives into the heart of parental challenges, emphasizing the importance of recognizing and valuing personality differences among children. Karen's warm and relatable approach invites parents to explore their own styles and how they may clash with their child's unique personality traits. This isn't just about parenting; it's about building deeper connections within families, reducing conflicts, and fostering an environment where children feel safe, heard, and understood. Karen's framework, developed through her experiences and training, encourages parents to adapt their strategies to meet their children's emotional needs, paving the way for healthier relationships and less stress in parenting.

Throughout the episode, we also discuss the significance of understanding personality assessments, like the DISC model, and how they can empower parents and educators alike. Karen shares practical tools and techniques that have worked for families, emphasizing that understanding the dynamics of personality can lead to more effective and compassionate parenting. This episode is a treasure trove of insights for anyone looking to enhance their parenting skills and create a legacy of connection and understanding within their families. So, grab your headphones and get ready for some enlightening revelations about the art of parenting by design!

A gift from our guest: The Parenting Blueprint Toolkit.

https://www.teachingouryouth.com/toolkit928346

This multi-page resource will help parents identify their children's personality style and the internal emotional needs that drive their behavior.

Karen Wagnon is a Certified Human Behavior Specialist, parent coach, and founder of Teaching Our Youth and The Parenting Blueprint. With over two decades of experience, she equips parents, educators, and coaches with practical tools to understand personalities and parent by design. Karen’s warm, no-nonsense approach helps families strengthen connections, reduce conflict, and build confidence in both parents and kids. She also trains and supports parent coaches using The Parenting Blueprint framework, personality assessments, and community to grow profitable, impactful businesses. Passionate, relatable, and rooted in real-life strategies, Karen’s work empowers families to create a lasting legacy for tomorrow.

Karen's Facebook page

@kwagnon on Instagram

Karen's Website

Bringing Education Home is an educational podcast brought to you by Kristina and Herb Heagh-Avritt.

If you enjoy the show, we'd love for you to leave a rating or review on your favorite podcast app!

Please let your friends know they can listen for free on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or their preferred podcast app or online at Bringing Education Home.

Sponsored by Vibrant Family Education - creating Happy, Healthy and Successful kids

Follow us on these socials:

Facebook

LinkedIn

YouTube

Instagram

Facebook Group - The Family Learning Circle

Facebook Business Page: Vibrant Family Education

Support Bringing Education Home

Copyright 2026 Kristina & Herb Heagh-Avritt

This podcast is hosted by Captivate, try it yourself for free.

I now have the pleasure of introducing Karen Wagnon. Karen is a certified human behavior specialist, parent coach, and founder of Teaching our Youth and the Parenting Blueprint.

With over two decades of experience, she equips parents, educators and coaches with practical tools to understand personalities and parent by design. Karen's warm, no nonsense approach helps families strengthen connections, reduce conflict, and build confidence in both parents and kids.

She also trains and supports parent coaches using the parenting blueprint framework, personality assessments and community to grow profitable, impactful businesses. Passionate, relatable, rooted in real life strategies, Karen work empowers families to create a lasting legacy for tomorrow. Welcome, Karen.

It is a pleasure to have you here today. Thank you for joining us.

Thanks for having me. I'm really looking forward to sharing with you today.

Thank you so much. Yeah, we're excited too.

And you know, when we had our pre chat before, this recording is like, oh my gosh, we have so much in common with education and parents and all these different things. Like, this is just gonna be a great conversation to hopefully get our parents rooted in what are some next steps?

How can we connect deeper and really help our family grow and thrive? So again, thank you for being here.

Absolutely.

So the first question, the one I love the most is what is your the passion? What was. Yeah, what caused the passion?

Or what was the pivot point in your life or your family that really made this something that you wanted to bring into the world and help other people with?

Oh, Christina, I get asked that all the time. People say, so how did you get involved in what you're doing? And I often say, so have you met my son Kyle?

So, so, you know, I. I was very successful in my career, was really looking forward to having a family, and Kyle was my first son. So I was a little older when I, when I had. When I had him.

And I just really struggled with how I could be so successful in my career and be such a failure as a parent. It was just a hot mess. And, you know, not that I didn't get down, you know, the nursing schedule and the sleep schedule.

Like, I was real good with those routines, but it's when those little personalities started popping up. I was really struggling with why is he the anti.

Everything I say, he will do the absolute opposite with eye contact, even, you know, look right at me and do exactly what I asked him out to do. And I was just really confused as to why he would continue to challenge me out this way. And I'm talking about 18 months.

It was really starting to come about. And so I really struggled with that relationship there.

And then I had a couple more kids after that, which they seemed to be a little bit more compliant, a little bit more easy to work with, a little more coachable. But Kyle was still hard, rigid. And as I said, he wasn't coachable to me. He just was not coachable.

But it wasn't until I actually attended a professional development workshop and was introduced to the understanding of personality types. And as I sat there, I kid you not, Christina and Herb, I almost thought as though I was being pumped. Like, is he talking to me?

He's talking right to me.

Because everything he was explaining about the conflicts that we can have when we have diversity in our personalities was exactly what that was happening in my home. And I was just fascinated by how did he know? How did he know this? This is what I've been going through. This is what I was experiencing. And it.

If I'm experience it, so is everybody else. And. But I was living behind, I guess, that guilt and the shame that everybody had it together but me.

I think I was led to believe, and I don't know if, Christina, you can relate to this as well, that we're led to believe that when we have children, we will know, because no one really teaches us how to raise a human right. There is nothing. There is nothing.

Not that I didn't read the books, not that I didn't prepare myself with those routines and things, but no one really talked to me about how to connect with the heart of my child, to understand why they thought and acted the way they did. And so after I heard Dr. Rome speak, I went back to his table. You know, he had a book table, and I bought all of his books.

And most of these books were centered around leadership, team building. It was more corporate. But I wanted to take this into the adult child relationship because that was the most important thing in my life.

You know, I was successful in my career, but I was struggling as a parent. I wanted to be a better parent, but I didn't know what I didn't know, right?

So all I brought into parenting was how God wired me and my personality and how my mama parented me became how I parented. And when those strategies were not working with Kyle, I just figured if I said it louder, longer, harder, you know, it was going to work. It was.

I was just in that, what I call parenting, Groundhog Day. I go to bed at night thinking, well, today wasn't a good day, but tomorrow will be better.

And by 10 o', clock, I'm right back where I was because nothing changed. And nothing changed because nothing changed.

And so after I read the books and started to apply what Dr. Rohm taught me, I realized that it's not a simple application from reading a book. And so I knew at that point I needed to learn more. I needed to go back and study with him and take what he taught me to the adult child relationship.

And that's what I did.

So I'm back and I went through all the certifications and speaker boot camps and master training, but my focus has been on the adult child relationship. So whether it's educator to student or whether it's parent to child.

And actually today I just, I was speaking with the YMCA because those counselors struggle with, with those behaviors as well. And I was speaking to another group here at the Indiana Dunes that works with students as well with their overnight summer camps.

And these people are just not trained to understand how to deal with the behaviors that they're exhibiting. So that's what started my journey as to why I started doing what I was doing. And at first I was sharing a lot in ministry.

It was my comfort level, you know, to just share it locally and in ministry.

And then my kids principal knew that I was certified with the DISC model and said, would you come in and do a professional development training for our staff? And I did.

And then she told another principal, who told another principal, told another principal and next thing you know I was speaking at conferences.

And then I really needed to get you know, dig into, in deep into creating a transformational framework that people would not only hear the information because there's a lot of good training out there. But what do I do with what I've learned?

How do I take the understanding of the personalities and mirror them with the strategies to work with those personalities? Because personality information was fascinating, but it was.

Yeah, but how, how do I work with a child who's wired a particular way when I don't see life through that lens? And so it, that's what really took it to the next level of not just understanding personalities, but what do I do now with what I know?

Yeah.

So if you're parenting, if your parents strategy worked with you, the only way that will really work with your child is if your child has the same personality as you do.

Because it would definitely be easier.

Different personality.

Yeah.

And it's like your, it's like your parents learned through trial and error how to deal with your personality and that's how they raised you. And that's your reference point. And so now.

Exactly.

Your child and it's like I'm raising them like my parents raised me, but that's a different personality type. You have to adjust.

Yeah. And it's not like my family values weren't the same. You know, our expectations were the same, but it's the way that they responded differently.

You know, Kyle did not want to be told what to do, and. And Kyle and I have overlapping traits, and that's in the dominant trait, so. So I had to keep reminding him I'm the mom. And he's like, don't care.

He still wanted to do it his way.

But when I understood that, I was experiencing his defiance because as a dominant mom, I was telling him what to do, and he did not take the directive. He wanted choices and control. Well, my parenting style wasn't giving him choices and control.

I was telling him what to do and expecting he was going to do it, and he was going to do it now because that was my expectation. So understanding myself and how I parented from my style and understanding why we were living in conflict was the first point.

But then it was like, well, I need to approach him differently. So I really needed to resort first to offering him choices within my boundaries, which meant I had to stop and think, what choices can I offer him?

Which wasn't easy because my natural style was just tell him what to do, I place to go and things to do. I didn't want to have to reverse psychology, all this stuff. But when I did, it reduced that conflict.

We increased the productivity and we had better relationships because he felt the freedom that he had choices and wasn't always being told what to do.

And there's some amazing new tools out there now that. That weren't available even when, you know, 10 years ago, five years ago. It's like the stuff available now is actually pretty.

Pretty incredible with the stuff going on with brain sciences.

And I want to layer in right here the fact that what you were discovering, how you dealt with one child isn't the way you deal with other child. And a lot of parents think that, oh, my gosh, I have to treat all of my kids the same. I have to approach them all the same.

Otherwise it's not fair or one will look like. Look at as being like a favored child or something like that. And parents, listen up, listen to what we're saying. That's not the way it works.

It's okay to meet your child where they are overall. You treat them equally, but you have to approach them differently.

Right.

And his dad communication style is different.

Dads out there, everywhere went, hey, life's not fair. You have to. Not even like. But that's not fair. It's like, we know that's not fair. Life isn't. And we have to deal with what we have.

So it's like, yeah, don't ever get your kids thinking that life has to be fair.

And it was different. And it's not that it wasn't picked up, you know, because Eric, Eric was my middle son. Eric is much more relational.

Kyle is very task driven, very left brain, very. He is. His way is the right way and he'll tell you why it is the right way. Where Eric was much more relational, he was a lot easier to be with.

He was coachable, wasn't real organized, didn't stay on task for very long, but he had a one. And, and I enjoyed being with him because he was fun and funny and made me laugh.

And even when I had to discipline him, I'd have to go in the other room and laugh and then come back and discipline him because he would always try to, to. What do I want to say? Charm me. You know what I mean? His way of thinking, get out of his, get out of his restriction or punishment.

And, and, and, and the perception from Kyle was that, you know, you like him better than me. And it wasn't, I love them all.

But Eric was more relational and we connected on that side of our personality where Kyle was more independent and he didn't, he doesn't like a lot of people and a lot of crowds. And you know, he, he just, he likes reading or movies or, you know, those, they were just very.

And gaming, you know, it's his very different interests. And it wasn't right or wrong. It's just different. And so when we share two of.

The main differences you described right now between introverts and extroverts, absolutely. Just having that, that kind of understanding. Like some people need to be alone to recharge. Some people need to be around people to get their energy.

That changes your parenting style right then and there.

It's absolutely right.

And, and that, and that's so true because I am energized by doing things and being with people where when we get together and we've had some family get togethers because we're a blended family with seven kids, 12 grandkids. So when we all get together, boy, it's a lot of people. Kyle will be around and then he'll just be off. He'll go find a place to go.

And in the beginning, I used to Be like, we don't get together very often, you know, come down and be with us. And he's like, I'm done.

Yeah.

And at first I was offended by that because I wanted everybody around, but I needed to respect that. That's what he needed was he, he, he showed face, he hung out for a little while and then he just goes off to his quiet place.

And it' in respecting our differences and our diversity and not trying to make him be like me because this is what I wanted. I wanted him to meet my needs and I wasn't being.

How does, how does disc help parents figure that out?

So the first thing we do, Herb, is we use the personality assessment. So we actually use the data. Okay. So when a, when a family comes to work with me, we will do the assessments.

And our program includes one for the child and one for a parent. But I always encourage, you know, however many people are in a family, we need to look at the whole family dynamic. Right.

And so when we do the assessments and then we do the plotting points and you see where the gap is.

Wow.

That's always the aha moment. There's nothing wrong with me, there's nothing wrong with my child. We just see life differently.

So it's not like we need therapy, it's not like they need counseling.

It's just my goal is to empower the parents to understand the diversity so they can become aware of the family dynamics, so they can adapt their interactions and apply the right strategy so that child does feel safe, seen, heard and understood. So for instance, on the DISC model we look at two observations. So I'm just going to go real brief with this.

If we're not doing an assessment, there's two observations. The first observation Herb, you had already mentioned is what is your pace in life? Some people are outgoing, fast paced individuals.

They're more of the extroverts. They walk fast, talk fast, eat fast, they're always in a hurry, always got things to do.

Then we have our folks who are more reserved and they just prefer a slower pace. They want to think about what they do before they do it, think about what they say before they say it.

When things are going too fast, it gets overwhelmed. Overwhelming causes them some stress and anxiety. So that's the first area where we could have a difference or something in common.

The second observation is what is your priority in life? How you spend your time will pretty much determine your priorities. Some people are task driven. We are like fine tuned, well oiled machines.

We make lists, we check things off, we have an agenda, okay?

And then we have other folks who are more relational and they know they have things to do, but they can get into a conversation and go off on another rabbit trip trailing. Next thing you know, nothing got done. But they had a great day hanging out with whoever, right? And so it's not right or wrong, it's just different.

What drives that personality? And so for instance, I am outgoing and task driven or my predominant. I'm more on the top of the model. I'm dominant and inspiring as my blend.

But my daughter is supportive and cautious. So Anna has one speed in life and it's like second gear. So I'm super charred woman, you know what I mean? And, and I run in fourth gear most days.

And this child does not get past second gear ever. And if I tried to get her to move faster or get things done quickly, I got tears and stop. You know what I mean?

Like, I overwhelmed her and I caught, I caused that because I was trying to get her to meet my needs instead of adapting myself to meet hers. So I need to calm my body language.

I need to have a softer tone when I communicate with her where it's very different from Kyle, where if I'm not firm and direct, he doesn't think I mean it. If I'm firm and direct with Anna, she thinks I'm mad at her. So it's, it's as simple of understanding that, that how that child sees that.

So I did need to be very different when it, when I was working with Anna, you know, and Kyle was very organized and left brain where Eric was like couldn't find anything ever because, you know, he was just like a ping pong, you know, he's just all over the place, you know. But I had to teach him what organization looked like, not be critical. Why aren't you like your brother? Why can't you find your stuff?

Have you used other personality tools besides DISC or is DIS your main focus?

DISC is my main. That's what I'm certified with. But the other tool that I love to use her when I'm working with families is the five Love Languages.

So you may be familiar with Gary Chapman's five Love Languages.

So after we go through our, our course on understanding the strength, struggles and strategies of parenting, the different personalities, I always like the parents to go through the love languages because that's like the icing on the cake. We may say we love our kids, but you could love them in different ways.

I remember asking my kids when I first read this book, which is feels like 100 years ago now. I asked each of my kids, how do you know I love you? And Kyle said, you make my lunch. And I'm like, okay, I make everybody's lunch.

But okay, so what is that? That's an act of service. Now, he's very task driven. So could you see that he appreciated the fact that I did something for him make his lunch.

And Anna says, you tell me words of affirmation, which was very consistent with her personality style of an S. And Eric said, you hug me, which is physical touch. You give me hugs. And he's a good hugger. Even to this day, he's a good hugger. Kyle's like hugging a board.

Get a couple little pats on the back and it's over. You know, Erica, big bear hug. But it's not right or wrong. It's different.

And so they are the tools that I use because it takes the, the relationship to go deeper. Because each of the personalities have internal emotional needs that drive external behavior.

And when those needs are not being met is usually when we experience the disruptive behaviors, we tend to address the disruptive behavior. But if you don't get to the why, that child is still not feeling seed heard and understood by the most important people in their world.

And that's their parents.

So I was an entrepreneur for a long time. I took the desk disc assessment several times, used it to figure out how to move in some ways.

But when I hurt my head and I stopped being able to move, then the disc assessment is. Is for me is more about how you move and how you find stuff. What. What worked for me more was what's called the Meyer Briggs Type Index. The mbt.

Very familiar. Yeah.

Because what that does is, is. Is it's based on Carl Jung's work where he identified four basic personality types.

And then Meyer Briggs added on that I forgot what it is, but the two extra letters to give you the 16 personality types. And when I hurt myself and life got really dark and was almost over for me, I found that.

And I was able to look at, back at my past behaviors and go, oh, this is because MBTI not only is is the four letters like, I'm an infj. So as an infj, I am the most extroverted of the introverted types.

I can be on a wall and nobody will notice me and I can be in a room and nobody will see me. And then I can step forward and just take over the room and be the life of the party. So. But I am Definitely an introverted and I need to be alone.

So I wondered why I couldn't always be the life of the party. And that made me wrong. There's other parts, things that infjs do that made me feel less than other people.

But then when I actually started looking at, at my behaviors and how they worked and the cognitive brain function stacks like there are actually brain types that I'm not capable of understanding because of the way that their mind works is so foreign to mine that even talking to them, it's really difficult to find common ground with.

And there are programs out there that say, hey, if you're this type of personality and you're, and you're working with this type of personality, this is how you have to talk to them and this is how they have to talk to you.

Yes, yes. And that's what we, that's what we go through. And Myers Briggs is a wonderful framework working with parents and educators.

The DISC model is just easy to understand and simple to apply.

And so if you're moving, this is how you move.

Yeah, right. You know, so we do have the blends because no one's just one thing like you have the, the Myers Briggs has the letters. We work with the disc.

So my predominant traits are dominant and inspiring. My supportive is at the midline. So I do want to help people, but my cautious calculating details.

So we mean to talk about not being able to connect with somebody.

Kyle is very detailed and he talks to me and I know I'm zoning out because they don't have a clue what he's talking about, especially when it may be work related or detail related. And I have to stay in the game because I want him to feel as though I'm paying attention. But I have not clue what he's talking about. I don't.

But it's important for us as parents to ask questions and engage so they feel as though you, you do care about me. You do get me.

And even though it's very foreign, some of the things that he discusses with me or even his interest and things that interest him are very different than mine. I still as a parent need to let him know that I do care to a certain point. I'll give you an example.

I had gone to my husband and I had done a retreat for a company on a cruise. What a nice gig that was, right? So when we came back, it was on Mexican cruise. We had brought back some gifts for the kids.

And so I got Anna a festive dress because she was a dancer and she wore the dress, and she just danced in it all the time. I got Eric a rain stick. And he just slept with the rain stick. He took it in the car with us. I got Kyle a chess set, an Aztec chess set.

And he never opened the box. Although he kept asking me, do you want to play? Do you want to play? Do you want to play?

And in my dominant style, because I have so many things that I have to do in a day, I kept putting him off. And I said, did you not like the chess set? And he says, well, you won't play me. And I said, all right, let's play. I kid you.

He checkmated me in, like six or seven moves, like, done. And I was like, well, if I knew the game was going to be that fast, I'd have played you sooner. But, you know, it was just.

That's how deep his strategy is. That's how deep he goes. And when he tries to explain stuff like that to me, it gives me a brain cramp, you know, because it's clear to him where.

It's just so foreign to me. Right.

Important, the playing with you. You brought this so that you could play a game with him?

Yeah. And it was quality time. One of his love languages is quality time. So it's acts of terms and quality time. And so that's what he wanted.

He didn't just want the gift. The gift, wasn't it, Play me.

Yeah, play me that. That's both the service and the quality time together. It's like, yeah, you gave me this so that we could do this.

It's like, let's do it, and you won't.

And you don't have no time. He asked me to watch a movie with him. He asked me for duct tape. Do you have some. Do we have duct tape?

And then when your kids ask for duct tape to get curious, right? I said, yeah, we do, but what do you need it for? He said, so I can duct tape you to this chair. Watch a movie with me. And I was like, wow.

You know, like, this is when they were younger where it really started to hit me that I was not meeting those needs. He just now, look, it was a Harry Potter movie. And that to me is like a half a day. That's a long movie. I was like, oh, I know.

You know, if I have that kind of time, because, like, I'll start watching the movie, and then I go change a load of wash, and then I go take something out for dinner, like. And next thing you know, I'm not watching the movie. With my kids anymore, and they're thinking, it's family movie night. Where'd mom go?

Because I have my task things to do that I wasn't giving them the time.

Oh, I did that so many times.

I'm gonna tease you. I'm gonna tease her here. We went to Hawaii on vacation. We were gonna spend a day on the beach. We got our towels, we got our stuff.

We got all settled up. And just as I finally got into the. She's like, oh, let's go for a walk. Oh, let's go do this. It's like, no, we're. We're doing the beach today.

We're not.

We're not stuffing. We're doing. And it took her years to be able to sit on a beach with me.

Yeah, you sound a lot like my hubby. Mark is more like the chips and salsa. Let's just talk all afternoon.

And I'm thinking of all the things I have to do, and unless I got a nice big glass of wine and then I don't care anymore. It's real hard for me to just sit and not think of all the things I have to do.

So it's like the blessing and the curse, but realizing that what is the person I'm interacting with need from me.

That'S where the blessing really comes in.

Because if you do these tools, if you learn how to talk to your person, whether it's your child, whether it's your partner, like, what you can accomplish having proper communication just. Just in the. In the way that they feel around you and that they feel seen, heard, and understood.

If you can speak their language, and it's all English, but wow, there's so many different. Different dialects of. Of personality that. That if you care. It's like that. That is such an important tool that you can bring to your family.

And this has healed so many relationships. Because, you know, when parents come to me and they're needing some support with their kids, there's usually conflict between the two of them.

And.

And typically. And I can see between the two of you and some of the things. I' tend to marry our opposite. I think that's God's design for completion.

You know, that we will be attracted to this. The traits that we don't necessarily have, but we admire in somebody else. And so opposites attract and then opposite attack.

All the things that you fell in love with are the irritating things that happen now, right?

You say that a little bit. Second most compatible MBTI type because we are both INFJs.

And so the Kind of connection that we have because of how we see in the universe and stuff. It's like we're connected at a level, you know, so many people's like, I wish I could have a marriage like yours. It is work.

But we got incredibly lucky because our personality types are. Are one of the, like, five golden ones is like, if you meet another one like this, it's like, marry them. You'll figure it out, and it'll be awesome.

Figure it out. Yeah. But a lot of parents come with different. Not only different personalities, but different parenting expectations.

Yes.

Because of their personality. Okay. One of them is usually a little more free range. That's relational.

One, like, I have rules and boundaries and expectations, and Mark's giving them a pass. And I'm like, so why do we have rules and expect. Well, they didn't mean it. They're sorry. And I'm just like, no.

And this is one of the things I want to jump in here, is that parents before you are parents. Right. Or before four baby gets to the point where they need direction and correction. You should be sitting down and having these conversations.

Please, for all things holy, don't go into parenting without understanding what kind of you both expect. I mean, you'll grow.

I would say don't go into your marriage before that either. We had lots of conversations about how many kids we wanted, about what kind of things we wanted to.

We didn't have as many kids as we wanted because we were going to have as many as we could afford. And then after two, she goes, I'm not doing that again. So.

So plans do change, but in general, it's like we realized that we were aligned up in so many things because, yeah, you can love somebody, but if there's. There's certain things that are out of alignment in your life that's going to create so much problems later in life.

It comes down to those family values.

Yeah, right. Absolutely.

What your family values are and being able to communicate that. Communicate that. Like you said before you get married.

But then how the kids and then finding someone who. Whose values mostly line up.

Yeah.

And the big ones, it's like, no, this is a game stopper. Figure that stuff out early.

Yep.

Figure that out.

Absolutely. Because if you're not equally yoked, it's going to be a long road to hoe. You know, it can really be difficult. So, yeah.

We've been together for 36 years, and she's in my memories from before I met her now, and she is my life. So that. That can happen. But Again, we've had our problems.

There was like a year where I didn't talk to her when we were married, but at the same time, we also had a commitment to work through stuff. So it wasn't all peaches and cream and puppy dogs and rainbows.

We had our problems, but we also had the internal structure that we're going to work through whatever is going on.

Yeah. And having the tools and. And when.

When again, the, the data, the personality assessments are so revealing that we can start to see where the conflict is. You're not doing it against me. You're doing it because that's the way you see life.

So how can we bring that together and understand each other and how do we compromise? How do we communicate when. When we get to a sticking point where nobody wants to give? You know what I mean? Can we agree to disagree?

But again, when you bring in the parenting aspect of that, that' to be. Be clear, that's when parents need to talk about a situation before they address it with the children.

You know, not do one thing with the other one not being a part of that. You know, these are just things that. That we discuss with families as. As structures.

You do, you know, kids are going to ask one parent because they know the other one will say no or. And then it's like, what did your mother say? And it's like, well, you know what? Let's go talk about that.

And then you go and you talk about it, and then you come back and you address your child on the same page where you can support each other in what your outcomes are and why. Based on your family values. Right. Based on your family values and expectations. So important.

Yeah. My first question was always, have you talked with your mother?

Yep.

And mine was only smart man. Did you already ask dad?

Did you already ask dad? Yep, yep, yep. Dana. How to divide and conquer. Right. Especially when we start getting into the tween and teen years, which is the.

The pivot point for most families. And a lot of the families I work with, we're starting to get into the. Those years where the kids are pushing away and it's not about family anymore.

Friends are more important, and parents just don't know how to adjust to, I'm going to say, not being needed as much anymore. But that is the circle of life. That is our job is to teach them to be independent. But we kind of like it when we're still controlling the roost.

Right. And then they have. What do you mean you're not going.

You're not going to be home for family game night, and you're going out with your friends, or you're going to the school basketball game, or, you know, we start feeling anxious that we're losing that. Not only the control, but the connection with our child when other things come in. And that can be a challenging season, but it's part of.

It's part of life, right?

It's part of life. And. And one thing before we move away from it, the. The other half of. Of. Did you ask your mother first?

Is I don't have a problem with it, but you need to check with her also. So it wasn't. It wasn't me saying yes. Have you. Have you talked with your mom? No. Okay, well, I don't mind, but you have to also ask her. So. So she.

Have you asked dad? Yeah, he doesn't mind. What do you think? So that's the way those conversations went. Because it wasn't just whoever you come to first, because.

Absolutely. But not all families do that, right? Not all families do that.

You know, I had one family where the dad was more free range and gave him a lot of independence and freedom and. And the mom was the worry wart. You know what I mean? She was the one who worried about everything.

And the kid just wanted to ride a bike to the friend's house, but they had to cross a particular street. And the dad said, well, you know, you stop at the light and you walk your bike across, you know, gave them. Gave them the parameters.

And the mom was like, no, they can't go that far. You know, so here we were with. And these are the things that create the conflict in the relationship when you don't see eye to eye.

So these are things that we, of course, we had a coach around, you know, what is your fear? Because it's usually the fear that's driving that. And so. But.

But at what point do you think it will be okay for them to take that independence and start doing things on their own? You know, and so that's it. That's. And as parents, you already know that it's tough when we have to start letting go and opening the gate.

I say we need to open the gate a little bit and give them some room to roam and see how they go with caution.

And if we find that they're not responsible with some of that, then we close the gate a little bit more and then we try again, you know, another time. And it's just. And it's knowing it's okay. It's knowing that it's okay, if that's. If that's what you need to do.

Because ultimately we are responsible for the final product that we produce with these kids. Right.

And can we have a story for.

For a time where it's like a family was really dysfunctional and then when they came to you, because a lot of times they don't come to you until it's desperate. So give us a big story of how this communications stuff that you're talking.

About, gosh, there are so many now. There are some families who come being proactive, and I love that they're starting to, in middle school, see that things are chang.

We don't want to screw it up.

But then there were also families where we had already started to go down a road and we needed to turn some things around, you know, and one in particular, actually, there were a couple I love when I work with the couple, the moms and the dads. Okay. A lot of times I coach the moms because we tend to be the primary caregiver and, you know, the. The nurturer and the family.

And so it's repairing and restoring those relationships. But I think some of my biggest transformation came when I worked with the couples because they had their differences as well as well.

And sometimes we're standing pretty firm on one's being a little bit harder and more of the disciplinarian, and the other one is the nurture. And we need to find a common ground. And. And this one particular couple I worked with, the daughter was. Was heading into middle school.

The mom was very relational. The dad was a little bit more rigid and didn't really tap into all the emotions. All the emotions, you know, all the crying and all the things.

It was just like, just in my want. Didn't want to go there. And the mom was really trying to hold on to this relationship they had with her daughter.

But the daughter was now pushing away and wanting to be with friends and doing other things.

And I just had to coach her to just give her space, give her space with her grades, give her space to be in her room if she wasn't doing anything harmful. Because sometimes they just like their alone time based on the personality. She doesn't want to do anything with me anymore. And I'm like.

Because you're not the center of her world. But when she gave her space, I'll give you. For instance, one night she said, we're going to sit in the hot tub. I'm going to go sit in the hot tub.

And the daughter used to always sit in the hot tub with them. Now she doesn't want to sit in the hot tub anymore.

And I said, well, the next time you do, just knock on the door and say I'm going to sit in the hot tub. If you want to join me, great. If not, I'll see you later. And so she did. And the daughter said she didn't want to come and then she came.

You know what I mean? Just give them. It came later, but not like because mom said come on, come or if she didn't come, it was not a big deal anymore.

And so as she started to give her that space, then the daughter came to her because she wanted to spend time with her, not because mom was requiring her to spend time with her. And I, and, and she just graduated and, and went to college this year.

And I just love getting messages back that I would never have this if we didn't go through your program. That I could better understand how to get through this transition of staying connected, especially through those teen years.

You know, I had, I had another mom who had two boys, you know, so it was so she was a boy mom. Very different kids. Two very different kids. Like, like my two boys, very different kids.

And trying to navigate that they're out of the same gene pool and they could be so incredibly different, you know. And I feel like I'm like, what is happening here? I don't know what I do with one doesn't work with the other.

But their family values were the same and it was the way they had to communicate, the way they had to parent, the way they had to structure boundaries. You know, one was a little bit more testing, the other one didn't test. And it's not right or wrong. It was, it was different.

But again, they have remarkable relationships with their boys today. I mean, still communicating and wanting to spend time with you, isn't that what we all want is our kids to want to spend time with us?

I don't, I don't know Christina and her. If you are just, just hearing so much about kids who want to estrange from their parents.

We have a 30 year old son who doesn't talk to us anymore and we can't see our. So it hurts, it hurts a lot.

You know, and, and, and, and it may just be because like Kyle and I went through a period of, of a full year of not communicating and, and it was, and it was wrecking me. I mean I'm all this is what I do for a living. And I have one kid who doesn't talk to Me. And. And.

And I was writing my book, and I'm being very transparent because I don't tell people this all the time, but when I wrote my book, My three and Me, A Journey in Parenting by. By design, I was in the heat of. Of some really hard stuff with Kyle. He was very rigid. And. And it all came down to.

As silly as it was, is that, you know, Mark, my husband, had been transferred, and I kept our family home until Anna graduated college. And when I graduate, when she graduated college, then I was going to be with Mark. I was going to move and be with him. We had two homes.

We lived apart for a couple of years, but Kyle was the oldest, and he had not moved out yet. And his perception was I was kicking him out. Well, he's 26. No. I held the house until Anna graduated, and I'm. Time to go.

And he was that angry that I was kicking him out was the perception where I'm just like, you shouldn't want to be with me anymore. First of all, you know, you're never gonna meet a girl when you're still living with your mama, so.

But, I mean, he was that angry with me that he stopped talking to me.

And it.

It was very painful. And I. I had to go to my pastor because I didn't know what to do with all this work that I had done on the book and said, how do I handle this?

I said, I feel like I'm a fake. I feel like I'm a fraud, that I. That I'm sharing all these wonderful, you know, testimonies of the results that you can get with this framework.

And I have one that is not okay. And he said to me, do you think you're the only one? Now that's the story that's going to connect with somebody. And it's.

The last chapter is when you've done all you know to do, when you've done all you know you can do. Because I did everything I knew to do. But this is what I found out, okay. Because I wrote that chapter, and it was ugly.

It was all the things he did and didn't connect. Like, I. I just. It was like my therapy session of journaling. But what I came down to in the end was the differences in our personality.

I am dominant and inspiring. So relationships are very important to me. He is dominant and cautious, and privacy is important to him, his independence and privacy.

So I'm wanting him to meet my relational need when he's saying, I. I will let you in when I'm ready. Yeah. And he wasn't. He didn't. Now, after all this went over and I finally rewrote it, I did publish the book.

I went to dinner with him one night and I gave him a signed copy. I did. I sent the kids a manuscript before I published, so they knew all the stories I was telling about them. But I gave him the book.

And the next morning, I get a message from his friend, said, kyle said, you wrote a book? And I see I do. I did. And he said, well, he said he read it last night and he wasn't offended. I was like, well, that's good.

But that opened the dialogue, because in that chapter I wrote the realization that this is just who he is. He will never be able to give me what I want. And I have got to adapt my expectation of what my relationship with him will look. Look like.

So shortly after that, he said, I want to buy a house. Will you come look at houses with me? Then it was like, I got these mortgage papers. I don't understand them all. Will you go over them with me?

Do you see the difference in that?

But I had to let go and cry for three months because my desire was to have the relationship with him that I might have with Eric, who's relational, because we connect there. Kyle's not wired like me. I will never have that same relationship with him. It's just going to look different.

And so for parents, if you are out there and you are feeling the same thing that you want this, it's usually because we want them to meet our emotional needs. And then when we don't, we fault them for that. When Kyle's not capable of being that person because that's not who he is.

So we connect on the things we connect on. I give him space. Now, I'll tell you, he calls me three or four times a week on the way home from work. It may only be 10 minutes until he gets home.

And then he caught. Then he says, all right, just got home, gotta go, bye. You know, that's it. But I get 10 minutes. I get 10 minutes. What are you making for dinner?

This is what I found on sale at the grocery store. You know, how do I make a pot roast? I mean, just any little thing.

Mean, it's not deep stuff, but just recently, he's starting to share some emotional things with me. He's 36 now. When he was 16 to 22, it was not easy. So, parents, I just want to give you hope when you understand how your kids are wild.

When you go through the assessments and the Blueprint and you go deep. Not just the surface, but the depth that we are able to cover. It will reveal so much.

But I had to recognize that it was me wanting him to meet my needs needs and putting that guilt trip on him when he's just not capable of that type of relationship. And I just have to.

This is one of those things I was talking about in the Meyer Briggs type index. Yeah, you get those four letters, but underneath that is the way your brain cognitively works.

So as an infj, my first thing is like, when anything happens, the first thing I do is I go inside of myself to see if anything like that has ever happened to me before, how I dealt with it and do I have clues on how to deal with it next. If it's never happened to me before, first step. If it's never happened to me before, I go into my intuition. Oh, this is what's happening.

Has anything similar, Have I seen similar things? And so my first two go to's are internal and it's deep.

And so sometimes when people ask me questions and I pause for an answer, it's not that I don't have an answer, it's like I have 15 answers. Which one answers the question most? So I have to think, okay, what are they trying to get out of me? So this stuff all happens instantaneously.

Instantaneously with me. But if you go with an es, they are extroverted and they're sensory. So, oh, something happened.

I have to look around to get more information to figure out, see what other people are doing to determine how I have to react. And then there's sensory. It's like, oh, this is kind of what I'm feeling and this is what people are doing. So that makes no sense to me.

Well, because that's the relational side of the model where you're more test side of the model. So the relation is all, what, what is everybody else else doing? Where you go internal into your own devices. Yeah. Did a lot of that.

Internal processing. Yes.

Yeah, I can describe that, but I can't understand that. It's like, how do you do that? It's like, makes no sense.

So let's ground for our parents for a second though.

So if you have kids like that, it's like you, you have to be able to talk to them. And how, what is the language that you need to use? Because I don't understand how to communicate with you.

So let's get a tool that we can find middle ground with.

Yeah, and that's what, what the Parenting Blueprint does first, starting with the assessments and then the course itself takes you into strength, struggles and strategies of parenting. The different personalities, the strengths of that style, the struggles you may experience with that, with that style.

And then strategies to best work with it. And then each of the modules you have to create an action plan because you already know what you've been living.

And it kind of reveals to, to the family themselves that this is, this is valid, you know, because it's research based information and that come up with the strategies that you feel might work best because you're the one living that. And then we coach to those specific strategies for accountability until we get the transformation we're looking for in the relationship.

So it really takes it that whole step further to just go, go deeper. Does it happen overnight? No, because it took a while for us to get to this relationship where it is.

But at the end of 90 days for our program, parents are already starting to see a little difference because the kids are starting to respond differently because we're responding differently to that. Just like I said, giving the daughter the space. I had another mom. Oh gosh. She was very task driven. The daughter was very relational.

And she's like, she's so needy. She's up my butt all the time. She never gives me anything space because she was like, I need my personal space.

And the daughter and, and, and, and she's like thinking there's something wrong with her. Why is she always. Because she's relational and she wants a relationship with you. And how many relational moms want that? Re. Want that?

And you're saying, get away. Give me my space. Right.

But she found that if the daughter wanted her to do something and she was in the middle of something because she was test driven. Let me finish this. I'll be, I'll be with you in 15 minutes. Is that okay? You know what I mean? Not just say no, but when you will.

So that the daughter's not still texting or calling her, coming into her room, you know, while she was working, giving her that timeline. And then they reconnected.

And that was another wonderful transformational relationship where again, it was like we would never have this today had we not gone through this process because they were that far apart. The gap was that big.

And that's also a fabulous, fabulous trust exercise as well. So you, you say 15 minutes and then you show up 15 minutes. Then you are modeling the time management and keeping your word to your kid.

And you're important to me.

Yeah, that's, that's a Fabulous for modeling as well. So if you're going to do that, make sure you do that.

Yes, that's true. Absolutely. Follow through is important. Absolutely. Yes. Yeah.

Otherwise we end up with cats in the cradle in the silver spoon.

How many times I hear that song, it breaks my heart every time.

Because we see it, we see it all the time when people don't see the relationship or we get to the end of life where we, we think we have the time now, but we didn't give them, we didn't invest the time then.

Yeah. And so that's the big entrepreneur thing, is they spent.

They have a job and they also have a business or they have a business and they're working 16 hours a day and they're doing all of this.

Stuff for their family, to provide for the family.

But they're losing that relationship, they're losing their family. And so then they get to this mythical place of, oh, I finally got there, now I have time for my family and they're gone.

If you did not plant those seeds, they have moved on to other relationships.

Right. So get that early.

No parent wants that.

Right.

This is legacy stuff.

You're gonna have like six or seven jobs throughout your life, maybe more. You're gonna have lots of friends throughout your life. You're only going to have one set of kids that your kids.

And that's where the love languages comes in. Because we can find those ways that even if we do have limited time, that we are maximizing the impact with that child, with the time that we have.

You know, we just came back from. We, we celebrate our 20th wedding anniversary this year as a blended family.

And so we all went to North Carolina, we had a beach house and we renewed our vows on the beach with our kids and our grandkids. And it, it was the best. All my peeps were in one place. You know what I mean? Now not all of them could come.

You know, we were missing just a couple, but we had almost everybody there. And that's the dream.

That's the dream to wake up every morning, grab a cup of coffee and sit out and watch the ocean and have all the littles come out and then, then the parents, you know, groggy eyed and making pancakes together. You know what I mean? Like that generation.

That is the dream, you know, for parents to have all your kids back home, even if it's just for a short period of time and bring back all those feelings of when they were home and we were hectic and crazy and, and couldn't wait till they all grew up and left, and now our heart aches when they're gone. So this is. There's just so much that we really want to be able to develop, but it starts now. You can't wait.

Yeah. And, you know, it's not just about parents and children either. I don't talk to one of my sisters. We never really learned how to communicate.

We butted heads, and she was incredibly disrespectful to me for a very, very long time until I couldn't handle it anymore. And so now we don't talk.

So having your children being able to be adults and talk with each other as well, if you build that as a family early on, you help the.

Children understand each other.

And yes, because my boys couldn't be any more different. Total.

But my mom can't have all of us together. So on. On holidays and stuff, it's like she gets one or two children because us siblings cannot be in the same room together.

Wow, that's. That's hard.

And, and because of the geography of where our family is, it's been like that for a long time because we have kids in Georgia, we got kids in Michigan. So this was the first time really, as adults that we all got together in one place. And it was magical for me. It really was.

But it, it is not unusual when we have those differences. But if we understand our differences, can we just agree to, to disagree that we're just different? You know, can, can, can we do that?

You know, and you can't force that. And as I was talking about with, with the estrangement that we may have to love them from afar if they cannot be close. Right.

And so parents, if you're going through this and it's not you, and you were like me, I've done all that I know that I could do. My heart aches because I can't have the relationship I desire.

Can I just love him and support him from afar or support her from afar and just let them know that I'm there for you, but not push in and just be available when they come to you. And they may or may not, you know, they may or may or may not.

And that's why it's so important that you as a couple have to keep that relationship going. Because when they're grown and flown, we're all we got.

Yeah.

I have to say, I, I, I, I, I, I still, I love hubby. He's still my best friend. And we are, you know, living a dream. You know, we are empty nesters. And, and we're.

We're doing a lot of fun things together, and sometimes with the kids, and sometimes it's on our own, but it's because we laid that, that groundwork and that foundation first.

And one of the things that I really wanted to stress on my kids when we did this, Val, renewal, is that, like you said, marriage is hard and we worked at it, and they know we've been through some stuff, but after 20 years, I still do and I'll continue.

Yeah. One of the things that I say is, is we chose to have kids. Yeah, I picked her. We chose to have kids. I picked her. There's a difference.

So I didn't get to pick my kids. I got.

No, that's true. That's just come out of the gene pool. I'm telling you. It's just like it's part of the DNA. It really is part of the DNA.

I'm not sure who said it, and I'm going to paraphrase it, but your children are not yours. They come through you, but they do not belong to you.

They come into this world with their own agendas, with their own challenges, with their own things that they're going to have to go through. And the best that you can do is create a life that they're going to want you to be in it for the rest of theirs as well.

Got it.

You can't control them. You can't tell them what to do. Well, you can when they're little. You have to.

When they're little, up to like 7 or 8 years old, that's when you start giving them choices. But. Yeah, but you have to create an environment where you don't hate your kids. Yeah.

We just want them to be the best they can be according to their design.

Not what you want.

Exactly. You know, and finding, I always say, you know, what is their personality? What is their passion? Can we help them find their purpose?

You know what I mean? And not, you know, my daughter was a dancer since the age of three and then she went to college and she studying dance and theater. And I'm like, so.

So what do we do with that? What do we do with that? She was talented, she was good. But she was also 4 foot 10.

So to be in, she couldn't even be anything Disney because she was below. You know what I mean? And so. But was I going to rain on her parade?

You know, there were times where she auditioned for things and she didn't get it and she just realized that, you know, I wasn't what they were looking for. I wasn't this and that. And it was really hard, hard to watch her go through all that disappointment.

And then when she got out of college, there was someone who was watching her dance at the college level because she danced basketball games, football games and so much. And they saw her and then they went to the coach and wanted her to audition for the Pistons.

And she danced with the Detroit Pistons for a number of years. Got to travel to Uruguay, Mexico City, had some wonderful experiences, community service in the community.

It was a wonderful thing that, that she had in that. But she wouldn't have had that. It was like, well, maybe you should go to, to college for a career that can actually, you know, make you some money.

And right now, you know, she's a mom of two kids under two. She's, she's a, a coach and a trainer and she loves her life. But who's, who would I just say sometimes very critical of what I'm not.

I'm not going to pay for your college if you're going to study that.

Yeah.

So pick something else. Yeah. I mean, this is, this is some.

Life coaching as well to me.

And, and we have adults who take this personality test for the first time at like 40 years old, and it says that they have this personality type that's creative and, and should be doing this, and they have a job as an accountant and they wonder why their life isn't working for them. And it's like, because you're doing something that is against your personality, you're not designed for it.

Exactly.

It's like, because that's what. My, my mom and dad were accountants. They had a business and now, so it's like, that's not their purpose.

And so sometimes these personality tests, it's like, oh, yeah, you know what? I really do like doing that, and this is what I'm doing. And it's like, no wonder there are things.

It's revealing and healing, you know, I mean, if we can help the kids understand the strengths of their personality and find an industry that they want to serve in, there will be something in that business that will fit you.

Yes.

So how can we help them find that, you know, and, and the jobs that, that are happening now will not be anywhere near what we're going to see four, six years from now. You know what I mean?

So we get back on these as old school traditional jobs where there are so many things that haven't even evolved yet that they could be a fit for. Right.

Let's say your kid likes sports but they're not athletic. There's sports casting, there's designing of outfits. There's, there's coaching.

There are so many aspects where they could pull education and what not to them through sports. Whether they are the active participants or not. It's like don't, don't squash them.

There's, there's so many things that they can do within the industry, even if they're not like the pinnacle top of the sports chain.

My son Eric loved football. Loved football. 140 pounds soaking wet. Okay.

So when he wanted to play at the college level and he was at a Christian school, so it wasn't like a D1 school or anything, so he had that opportunity. But he also realized when he started playing he was going to die.

But I wasn't going to tell him because he would study the stats on players that were about his size and his things that they did. And if they could do it, he could do it. So I kind of let him go.

But just recently he put in an application for a college to do the stats for their team to compile all the data to give to the coach. He loves numbers and loves the sport. Right. Do you see how you could connect that? Now? I, I don't think he's heard anything back yet.

But who are we to say our goal as parents is to help guide and coach them to be the best they can be according to their design. But how do you know if you don't understand their design? How can we do that?

How can we support them if we don't understand we want them to do what we think they should do? Because if they do, we'll look better as parents, right?

Yeah. It's all about how we look.

Yeah.

Karen, this has been so amazing. Thank you so much for everything that you have shared. Would you please let our audience know how they can get a hold of you?

If something has resonated with them and they're like, oh, I really need to find out more, how do they get a hold of you?

Yeah, well, of course you can always go to my website, teachingouryouth.com There are a number of, number of different buttons you can pull there. I do professional development for educators, but I also have my parent program. So you'll see the button for the parenting blueprint.

You can pull that down and click. Work for Karen. Learn a little bit more about what it's like to put together a parenting blueprint.

I'm also training coaches to use this framework so that they can take this into their community as well, so if you are wanting to do some work with families, this is a wonderful framework. As you can tell, the research base data is something like nobody else has.

You know, to be able to do that for the adult child relationship, I have a Facebook group, Parent by Design with Karen Wagden. I'm sure we may have some of those links that you can provide as well. Okay.

Yes. We want to say it out loud.

Absolutely. Look, parenting is the hardest job we will ever have and no one teaches us how to do it.

And so if you are struggling, you are not alone, because we are all in the same boat. And I just think we need to change the narrative. I think we need to rip off the veil that no one knows what we're doing and it's okay to get help.

I think if I were to ask for help and I didn't until I was really struggling, it. It was almost as though I was a bad mom and I was failing. I didn't want anyone to know. Parents were all freaking winging it.

Your kids are still alive.

So let's get rid of that one right there. None of us know what we're doing.

We can all be at the pickup line, all looking real good now to we're going, going home and we're screaming our bloody head off, you know, so you don't need to be that mom or dad anymore.

With this tool of understanding, you will be confident, you will be competent, and you will be empowered to be able to be the best parent you can be for each of your children.

Excellent. Yeah. Thank you so very, very much. This has been so awesome. Audience, listen to what's been happening.

Remember that you are the best fit teacher for your child.

That doesn't mean you have to know all the answers, but you know more about them and can support them in so many different ways and then get the help that you need to also support them. So like Karen just said, you know, asking for help is not a weakness, it's a strength.

And it's something you want to model for your children so that they have that curiosity and that love of learning and that, oh, I don't have to know it all, I can get help to kind of attitude so that when we get older, we're not trying to reclaim our life or fix traumas because we've come at this at a different way. Right? We're not living and growing in this society where we're battling all the time.

Instead, let's make this a little bit easier, a little bit more free flowing and accept that Everyone needs help at one point or another.

Absolutely. Just bring such clarity to the difference in diversity that we have. It's not right or wrong wrong. We're just different.

And I would like to thank you for being here as well. You know, so many times people have these problems, and even if they get through it, they just bury it and go on.

You had these issues, and you fought that dragon, and instead of just living your life, you brought it out and you started sharing it with other people. And that is the hero's journey. You went out, you fought the dragon, you got your treasure, and then you bring it home to share it with the people.

And that is a hero. What you're doing is amazing. Thank you so much for being.

Thank you. Thank you so much. I really appreciate that. Yep. Love my kids. And it didn't feel good to not feel connected and.

And the only person who could change that was me.

And then you sharing that is the heroic part. So thank you.

Thank you.

All right, family and audiences, thank you for being here. Thank you for sharing this time with us.

Don't forget that vibrant family education is here for you to help you support your families along the education path. Bringing education home is here to support families in lots of different ways. That's why we bring on Karen.

That's why we bring on all these different people that will help the families where they are, where they want to move to next. Make sure you share, like, subscribe, and come join us in either Karen's website or our website, wherever you need to get the help you need.

And until next time, bye for now.

Bye for now.

Thank you. Bye. Bye.