Have you ever found yourself thinking, ‘What on earth was I doing?This person is all wrong for me’, when only a few months ago they seemed perfect? How did that feeling of bliss when you’re finishing each other’s sentences and laughing at the same jokes turn to irritation, resentment and blaming them for everything that’s wrong?

Clare and Aileen help you understand the natural cycle from falling-in-love bliss to relationship blame, why it happens, and how to navigate your way through it.

Dip into some of the things Clare and Aileen chat about in this episode:

03:51 What’s happening to our bodies during the bliss phase

10:54 Difference – the good, the bad and the ugly

17:35 The danger of confiding in people who agree with you

20:49 Tips for navigating through the bliss to blame phases

23:50 Esther Perel – many different marriages within the same marriage

26:08 Tips on better communication

28:03 Has this relationship come to the end of the road?

34:22 Tips on how to have honest conversations with partners and friends

Want to know more?

If you want to hear more about what to do when sexual attraction starts to fade in a relationship listen to Episode 7 “Lust or Bust” from Season 1.

Visit our website: The Sex and Relationships Podcast for more information on the issues discussed in this episode. You can also Ask Clare a question or suggest a topic for future episodes.

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About the Sex and Relationships Podcast

This podcast is for anyone looking for information or help with their sex lives or relationships. In this season your hosts Clare Prendergast and Aileen Gonsalves deep dive into the world of relationships to give you insights, advice and top tips to help guide you through your relationships.

Your hosts

Clare Prendergast is a sex and relationships therapist and draws on her knowledge and years of experience in the therapy room to give you help and guidance.

Aileen Gonsalves is fascinated in human behaviour and drawing on her many years in the theatre has developed the unique Gonsalves Method which helps people be more present and develop authentic connections with those around them.

Clare 0:03

Hello again, all of you. Welcome back to the Sex and Relationships podcast. As you may know, I'm Clare Prendergast and I'm here with my friend Aileen Gonsalves. Hello, Aileen.

Aileen 0:14

Hi, Clare. Hi, everybody.

Clare 0:16

So today we're going to talk about bliss to blame. We're essentially talking about sexually intimate relationships and that deliciousness of the falling in love, which we're calling bliss. And when everything's just perfect and finishing each other's sentences and we just feel like we've got home and everything's just how it's meant to be in the world. And then, seemingly out of nowhere, we fall into falling out, disagreeing what we're calling blame when it's like, what can I possibly been thinking? This person is just all wrong. We're going to be going to unpack why bliss happens and what the ingredients and component parts are of bliss. And then we're going to talk about what happens in the blame side. And then we're going to talk about what can we do about it. You know, we're going to give you lots and lots of strategies for what to do about it.

That sounds great.

Okay, so I think we should start with bliss. You've met someone, and there's just been this kind of almost magnetic connection. And at some point, you've fallen into bed together and everything is just sublime. Let's talk about that.

Well, I think it's so interesting. You know, I was just talking to a friend this weekend who had that experience of bliss, and it was this kind of whirlwind, just meeting an online date, not expecting anything. And this incredible chemistry thing happened where they were absolutely magnetically drawn to each other. And they had this incredible weekend. And, you know, the way they described it on the phone to me yesterday, it just sounded like a holiday romance sort of level of this is perfect. Oh my God, should I be with this person forever? I mean, everything's really right. We really matched all our chemistry, you know, we laughed at the same jokes, and I thought, wow, this is so interesting that we're talking about this today because it feels so real. I don't know if it is real. I know for myself I've had experiences like that, and now in hindsight, I see it as delusion.

So, you're speaking about when it is a delusion and it isn't actually the beginning of the rest of your life because there are many, many, many occasions where this happens. You fall into bliss and it is the beginning of the rest of your life, but you still have to work out a way to get through the blame phase. But we'll speak about that in a bit. But for now, yes, sometimes. Maybe often, it is a complete illusion. And your friend you say they had this incredible weekend. Was it all over by Monday?

Well, no. This is the thing is trying to see. Can we hold on to it? Because then logistics come in, don't they? In terms of where you live, where I live, can we make this work?

So, after one weekend they're talking about where to live.

Well, yes, exactly.

Sensible things like let's take this slowly. Let's get to know each other. Let's see how we do in the supermarket. Let's see how we do in terms of, um, yeah, our hygiene levels.

Oh my gosh.

There's so much to discover about somebody before I think before you decide to move in together. But yes, in the bliss phase, why wouldn't we move in together now? I mean, you hear stories where, you know, people, you know, have a date, fall into bed, and that's it. They never go back to their own home. We've been together ever since.

So, what's happening in the bliss phase? All these chemicals are being released into our bodies. All those endorphins and oxytocin.

Yes, the dopamine.

Dopamine. Yes. Serotonin. Our brains are being flooded with drugs that are feel good drugs. They are elevating our mood. The world makes sense. Life makes sense. I know why I'm here. I mean, it's delicious. And I don't in any way want to discourage folks from, you know, swimming in those waters. They are the best, but they are short lived. It's not possible to sustain that level of bliss and have a regular life. It's like, you know, the day job needs to be got to. The children need to be got to, the toilet needs to be cleaned, the shopping needs to be got in, the bins need to be emptied. You know, these are not blissful activities, but they are part of living a full life and they need to be attended to.

Well, it's interesting at the moment because I've just come back from holiday with my partner and the holiday felt bliss. You know, we were in our own bubble. We don't have to deal with any of those things at all. And I think that's something that feels like the bliss stage, where it's the two of us against the world. And I think when you first fall for someone, you construct your life so you don't have to do any of those things. You know, you can get into quite a lot of trouble by not working. I mean, I've definitely done that, you know, kind of just not doing the everyday life, but saying, no, now I've found this person. Everything's perfect, you know, and I don't want to break that bubble.

Mmm. Yes. It's interesting you're referencing holiday. You know if a holiday is particularly delicious and perfect, the homecoming, it can be a real kind of catapult into all the sort of difficulties of life. And it can be quite easy to get quite depressed after a holiday. And that is as much of an illusion as the deliciousness of bliss. It's like, no, I'm just my pendulum has just swung into the opposite. But I will settle in a middle place at some point where I remember that, you know, what we've got is really great and I love you. And actually, my life is okay. And. Yeah. So, it's chemistry. It's, oh, it gives you this, uh, in the bliss phase, there's this sense of being complete. Yes. It's like the bits of me that were missing are now filled by this union. It's like, now I'm. I'm whole, and we might not use the language. I was broken, and now I'm healed. But experientially, it can feel like that.

Yeah. And that's what is blissful about it. And why you don't want to give it up. You don't like it when suddenly the little chinks start to happen. You're trying to just go, no, no, let's just stay whole. Let's stay whole. I mean, and I think in some ways, I know in my experience, my gosh, I only actually experienced the bliss phase truly, not delusionally, in the relationship I am in now. So rather wonderfully at the age I am now, I feel I have found someone that it really does feel like this description that you're saying that friends have always talked about. And I have pretended is sort of happening in various ways, very intellectually, you know, trying to make it like that, but now experiencing what I'm experiencing now, I see the difference. I feel the difference.

Oh, how yummy, how yummy it is.

And I think it's important to say, even when it happened when you were younger and we're now calling it an illusion or delusional, it wasn't an intellectual thing. I think it's really important to get it is an experiential bodily. It happens. And that's why it's so hard to deconstruct and unpack because it's so visceral, this sense of bliss.

Society tells us we're looking for this bliss stage. It's the end of the film, isn't it? They reached bliss.

Yes, yes.

Every romantic comedy ends with, oh, finally. You know, we think the struggle is the getting together. But actually, that's then the end of the film. Yes, but absolutely the start of the......

It's the beginning. It's absolutely the beginning. And I think, you know, quite often Janet and I spoke about this in the last series, um, you know, clients come into our counselling room because they've watched the movies and they sit down and say, we want to feel like we did at the beginning. And it's and it's just like, well, that is not possible, because what happened in the beginning is about the beginning. And it's the, it's the ingredients that allow us to take the risk to move into an intimate relationship.

And I think sex is funny. We haven't sort of said it, but sex is is a classic reason for that immediate connection chemistry thing. When you phone your friend, you go, oh my God, the sex. It's like nothing I've ever experienced, you know? He really understood me. They really got me, you know? And that's really compelling.

Very compelling. Yes, yes. And I think it's there's, there's the kind of, there's the desire and arousal component of sex, of fancying the other person and experiencing them fancying you, which is so delicious. But emotionally, what makes sex so problematic when things get difficult down the line is we're not in the habit of taking our clothes off. You know, in all of our relationships in life, we keep our clothes on. But with this encounter, we tend to take them off. We have skin on, skin contact. And of course, emotionally, that takes us back to being newborns and the vulnerability we experience as newborns. You know, we've come out of our mothers’ bodies. We're in this terrifying world. And if we're lucky, our mothers take us onto her body, and we have that skin on skin. And if we're lucky, she comforts us and consoles us and reassures us. And we have this visceral, bodily. Ah.

Yeah, I'm feeling it now. I'm safe.

And then when as adults, when we have this attraction to another and then we fall into bed and it's just wonderful those feelings. But they're nonverbal feelings because we couldn't speak when we were newborns. We couldn't intellectualise when we were newborns. We don't make sense of this, but we re-experience it if we have a wonderful, wonderful, wonderful sexual encounter. But then when they prove to not be what we thought they were, the pain of disappointment is multiplied and amplified because we had this incredible connection at the beginning.

Things start going wrong when differences emerge. So, if I look back to when we were talking about that magnetic attraction, if you think about it, what makes a magnet zip zip together is their opposite force fields. It's their difference that allows the magnet to meet, to connect. So, everything that led to that attraction is what then becomes the problem in the blame phase. It's the fact that you're different to me that is so exasperating and so annoying. Why can't you be more like me?

Yes, so that I do know that.

Do you know that? So, the difference is, I mean, you know, let me just churn some out. It can be things like one of you might be a saver and one of you might be a spender, or one of you might be a talker. One of you might be a reflector.

That's me.

Is that you? Which one are you?

Which one do you think? Massive, massive talker. Especially watching films.

So, in a intimate partnership, then you will probably always attract reflectors because you complement each other. So, for the reflector it's great to have you jabber, jabber jabber. But you know fast forward six months, 12 months, two years. It's like Aileen can you stop talking?

Yeah.

You know, or for that, for you, it's like to the reflector. Can you start talking an initiator or a responder? You know, amount of times I hear I always initiate, I'm always the initiator. And it's kind of like, okay, okay, Oh, tidy and messy. Which one are you?

Yeah, I think I'm very tidy. Okay. But I think I'd be thought of as messy. But yeah, it's interesting because also if you don't know which thing you are, I mean, so much of this is about knowing yourself and allowing that difference. I suppose knowing recognising that we're different is already a big thing that you've just said, because I think sometimes, we can merge into thinking if we're the same, then this relationship is going to work. I think that's what I've done in my life. And even when I've done online dating, I'm looking for similarities. I'm wanting to find sameness weirdly. Oh, they're creative. Great. They're this oh no, they're that, you know, interestingly, writing the online profiles where you say what you are and what you're looking for, you are consciously doing a little checklist with yourself about saying, I don't want someone who watches TV and sports every Sunday. So, it's interesting in this now new world of online, it's not so new. But, you know, are we missing the chance to meet people of difference because we're trying to be the same? What's that word. It's things that are compatible. Yeah. So compatible is different than the same isn't it.

Yes. So, it's like however much you seek sameness in order to have chemistry, you need to have difference. You will not have chemistry if you find a carbon cutout of yourself, that sexual attraction, that fire, that or that, not fire. What's the spark? The spark that leads to the connectivity between you requires difference.

I mean, it's interesting, I've had in various relationships, realising after way too long that we have a kind of brother sister thing going on. We're so the same. We've merged, you know, there's emerging. And I remember someone once saying, A therapist, actually, yeah, you need to do some work on separating and seeing this person as a separate human being. The fear for me is that separate means you have to break up. I don't understand there's any other choice at that point,

Yes. And I think you're not alone in that. Aileen. I think for a lot of people it's like, gosh, if we start validating and honouring and celebrating our differences, it's going to be the path to nowhere, particularly if you've unwittingly allowed yourselves to merge. You've allowed yourself to become, you know, you see them don't. You can just walk down the high street and there's the couple with the same raincoat or the same bicycle or the, you know, they've just it's not happen intentionally, but just over the years, they've just sort of become more and more the same. And actually, no, I want my own coat. I want my own bike. I want, you know, we need to find ways to be different. But to get past difference being terrifying.

Yeah. And even as you're saying it, I'm feeling fear because I'm thinking, gosh, that's interesting that that is that little creak of, oh, tension that's just locked into me. Because you've said that. Because I think that is the thing. That's a very old pattern here. An old habit, old thing that I believe. Yeah, difference is separation. All those words are bad. But actually, that's not true.

And I think you say old things in terms of your lived experience. But I think currently in the contemporary world where we're trying to work this out in. There is a lot of fuel being given to difference being bad. Do you know there's a lot of hate speech around at the moment around whether the differences, ethnic differences or cultural differences or, you know, male/female? You know, there's a lot of energy in, in fuelling difference being a bad thing. And let's get rid of anyone who's different.

Well, it's interesting because of course, I'm Indian and I'm brown in a white kind of world. And so, I've always not wanted to be different. My gosh, you know, I'm trying not to stand out the whole time. You know, I'm trying. This is in the past. I'm a bit better now, but still this feeling of going, I want to find sameness so that I am safe, you know, essentially that I belong. You know, it's interesting, though, because, you know, I've never I'm just trying to think if that's true. Yeah. I've never gone out with someone of the same colour as me or from the same country.

Interesting. Yes. And yes, I suppose just to kind of reassure you and folk listening, you know, that's that sort of flutter of fear that you're noticing makes total sense. Intimate relationships are scary things. They're worth it. But it's going into that level of vulnerability where I'm not the same as you. And that is okay. And together we're going to create a container where our differences are valued and honoured. Is obviously the end point in a healthy partnership.

One of the things I've noticed is a propensity to recruit folk who agree. So, you know, would you believe it he did this or she did that or he did that, or she. And then getting a team of going, oh they didn't. That's terrible. That's so in terms of fuelling the blame and deepening the gulf between you, do you know, getting people on your team against your partner?

Absolutely. And we don't think I didn't think I was doing that how you've described that. But absolutely, I was doing that because you think you're confiding and offloading with a friend. But my goodness, when the friend backs up that theory, you just run with it. If there's three girlfriends or three boyfriends. I had girlfriends, we sat around together. That's just like some sort of nightmare. So, then you go back into the relationship again, not talking, not discussing it with them. I've solved it with my friends and realised I was right. So, then I'm happy and they're still wrong, but I'm not discussing it with them at all. But now I feel moral high ground that I'm right now in this whole dynamic. Yes. Yeah. Very dangerous that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, my position on the bins, or my position on how often we eat chicken in a week, or my position on when whose turn it is to clean the bathroom. Do you know? It's like I've got all these girlfriends who are on board going. You're right, they're wrong.

You're right. Yes. And I even would speak to male friends. You know, I'm being I'm going to go and get another perspective. But I absolutely want me to be validated. And, you know, it's disastrous. I mean, friends are vital in this whole setup. You know, the people around you in how, you know, a friend that actually maybe asks you some questions about the situation is a very different.

Yes. Exactly. So, at this stage, the blame phase is fuelled by us recruiting people who will agree with us. Friends and family members. They're not people who'll challenge us, who'll go, hang on a minute. They're people who go, oh, you're right, you're right. And the righteousness then can lead us into resentment. And then you mention the moral high ground. We're absolutely puffed up. I mean, that's often another sort of state where I have people come into the room with me is they. And it might have run for years of this rupture really.

Yeah. It gets entrenched, really. It gets entrenched and it gets backed up and you don't shift from it. You know, it's funny because I the blame phase for me is, is I know when things are not great, when I start rolling my eyes, oh my gosh. When I roll my eyes I think, oh hello. Because, you know, I think because something I mean I'm only aware of it now. I've done it for years without realising how significant it is. But, you know, just little digs, a little bit of undermining, you know, at dinner parties now, publicly undermining, you know, oh, he's always doing that. Oh, yeah. No. Do you mean all that stuff is hugely undermining actually, or disrespectful of the person that you supposedly love.

And quite often you're complaining about all the things that in that bliss phase were the things that made you feel whole.

So, what do we do about it, Aileen? What are we? What are the solutions? How do we break this kind of pendulum swing? Bliss. Blame. Bliss, blame. Bliss, blame. And you can see it in multiple previous connections that you've had. I see it all the time in my counselling room. How do we change it? How do we change that pattern? Because understanding what's happening, it just makes such a difference. It's like, oh, that's why I fell for you at the beginning because you were different. And that's why you're doing my head in now. Because you're different. Just knowing that can be so helpful take you out of feeling just completely trapped in the cycle and being able to stand on the side and go, oh, hang on a minute. This is a thing.

It's interesting. I remember when I went to Relate and I went a couple of times actually, in relationships. The first question they always ask, I don't know if they always ask, but they did me was, why did you like them in the first place? And it's such an interesting moment. It pulled me up short both times because you name the thing you haven't named for years with this person, and it's a very softening moment, really. Your heart kind of opens again. You realise you've got quite a long list of things, and that was useful. And I remember thinking, oh, that's interesting. How do you get so disconnected from that initial thing?

Yeah. What did I like about you in the beginning? That's lovely. And I think investing in deconstructing what's happening, you know, like we've been doing just looking at us. What is going on here? What were the component parts in the bliss phase? What are the component parts now in the blame phase? You know, am I recruiting friends and family to shore me up? What did I fall for when I first met you? You know, was it, you know, the fact that you could make me laugh. And now, every time you try and crack a joke, I want to swipe you one. And it's kind of like, oh, that's me that's changed. You're still just the person I fell for. You're still the comedian. I'm just no longer in the mood for laughing.

The word you keep saying, which I think is really helpful, is phase because you're saying it's the bliss phase, then it's the blame phase, and phase means it can move.

Absolutely, absolutely.

And that had never, never occurred to me to look at it as an actual, you know, we talk about phases of growing up with children or phases of this or it's a process we're in. And I never see it as a process. I think the bliss phase; I think I'm trying to find the perfect relationship. So now I've got, oh, I found it now because the bliss phase is saying I found it.

But without the word phase. I guess you're saying I found it and this is going to be forever. Yes. Like in the movies.

Yeah, yeah, like in the movies. And then when it goes wrong, I have to get it back to that moment.

Yes.

And of course, that is utterly impossible as you said. Life's moved on. Things are moving along all the time. You're changing. They're changing. But if you see things as phases, then you're moving through something. Yes, it's very interesting.

And the thing about the bliss phase is, is it's not that it won't happen again. It just what won't happen is it won't be like it was the first time. So many long-term couples. I mean, Esther Perel has this lovely observation, which is that, you know, the healthiest long-term partnerships. There are many different marriages within the one marriage. And she talks about how, you know, the marriage you have in your 20s is not the same in your 30s, 40s, 50s because we change and therefore our relationships need to change as well. So, it's not uncommon for a couple to have a phase of bliss at the beginning, which allows them to come together. And then go through some tricky times. You know, maybe they have a child that's poorly, or maybe one of them gets poorly or they lose a job, or they lose their home. You know, some they have some really gnarly times and maybe they get a bit disconnected but then they find their way back to each other and they can have another bliss phase that will be entirely different to the one they had at the beginning. But it will still be blissful. There will still be oxytocin and serotonin and just delight in each other and just ah ha, open hearted yumminess, but a different flavour to the first time.

Exactly. Because now it's enriched with the journey that you've been on, the struggles that you've gone through. The struggle is the strongest bonding thing for people, you know, if we allow it to become that and know there's a way, something, you know, the struggling time will end. I remember someone once saying to me, are you sure it's not just, a bad phase you're going through, and that at some point you'll look back and go, oh gosh, Do you remember that phase we went through that time when we were really fighting. And that's interesting as well. As you say, the blame phase is not definitely not going to last forever either. But I think you have to get involved with trying to help that probably.

Well that's it. I mean, it's the whole thing is about taking action. It's recognising I'm in this, the blame phase and what am I going to do about it?

So, you've mentioned at least twice, maybe several times communication. This is absolutely key. Communication with our partners, but also the quality of the communication with people outside the relationship. Do you know reflecting on who we choose to confide in? You know, we don't just need cheerleaders. I mean, cheerleaders are great, but we also need listeners who will go "You said what?" or "You coped with it that way?" Or "why did you do that?" Or you know people who help us see what we're bringing to the mess, not just dump on our partners. But then with our partners as well, I mean, in other episodes we've talked about how to communicate well, but communicating, it's as much about listening as it is about talking.

Yes. And as I've said, I'm a talker. So, you know, I think listening has been always my challenge that I have to do. I found very good friends over the years who really do challenge, and they challenge in such an interesting way because they often just reflect back, word for word, what I've just said. They say, okay, 'so what I think I heard you just say is...' And they repeat everything I've said, and that is a shocking thing to hear back because you go, oh wow. Oh gosh, I did just say that, that and that and that and that, you know, rather than necessarily giving them, you know, wading in with their opinion because of course, friends have an opinion of your partner, which can be a myriad of things, you know, and then you get really defensive potentially, because now you're defending your partner with them. So, over the years, we've developed good sort of strategies for just speaking back what we've heard us just say or what we just reflecting on what the factual situation sounds like it is, and then asking questions about, well, what do you want it to be? What did they do wrong? What was it that pressed your buttons? And where are you in all of this?

Lovely, lovely. I think as well it's helpful to allow into the room the possibility that we have come to the end of the road, that actually our partnership did have a yummy start. We have had some really good times together, but actually the differences that have been revealed in recent weeks or months or years are potentially indicating that it's time for us to look at wrapping this up. And I think if you've got the courage to allow that to be in the conversation, not as a threat, not as a manipulation, not as an "empty the bins or I'm leaving you", do you know that is just pure horribleness. But, you know, we loved each other so much in the beginning. We've lost our way with each other. We want to see if we can find our way back to each other and back to loving each other again. But maybe we can't. And you look really touched. Aileen. What's happening?

Yeah, that's made me feel really sad. That's interesting. Just you talking about the possibility of it being not right. You know, I'm thinking about my marriage, actually, Clare, because, you know, I was with someone for a long time, two decades, and lived with them and could not be brave enough to look at that straight in the face earlier. We did the blame thing. We went to Relate. We tried, we knew something wasn't right and we tried to make it better, but actually we didn't allow I don't think the possibility that it could end. Because it's that feels too big a thing, especially when you're married. I cannot imagine if you have children, but you know that to actually say out loud, really, maybe this should end. It's making me feel sad even saying it, because actually, that would have helped us a huge amount because I think we'd have got there sooner which I do feel as you would have been useful for both of us. And, you know, I feel good now. You know, my partner's gone on to marry someone else extremely happily. I feel I've had a wonderful load of years. Not with them and now with my new partner. I'm so happy. So, you know, that's the other thing. There are other outcomes. Even, you know, I think the marriage thing is interesting. Or this idea of that you are stuck. I just remember sitting with girlfriends once and banging a table in a pub going, "no, I cannot leave, I am stuck, I have no choice" and I don't know why I felt that so strongly. I have no choice.

Well, there'll be all sorts of very good reasons why you felt like that, Aileen. I think, you know you've referenced your Catholicism in the past. Our stories, our family scripts, you know, from our parents, grandparents, great grandparents. You know, in some families, the possibility of separation is anathema. In some religious communities, it's really framed as the ultimate of wrong, bad things.

Definitely. Yeah, that was a lot to do with it, I'm sure.

And yet in the 21st century, we don't have the same the cultural sort of social reasons why folk, women in particular had to stay married in the past because they, you know, they had no rights. The world fortunately, in many countries, I mean, not across the world, but in many countries, the world has moved on and women can live independently perfectly effectively and happily and but recognising. I mean, you're one such woman. I mean, you're a modern woman in so many ways. You earn your own money. You have your career; you didn't need to stay married for financial reasons or religious reasons. But in your bones, the possibility of leaving the marriage did not arise. It was not a possibility at the time you did find your way, but it took you quite a long time. And that's again where someone like me can come in and be quite helpful just to say the unsayable and have it be in the mix, as that is a possible outcome for us. Obviously, it's not wanted, but it is a possible outcome and sometimes it does motivate a willingness to look at what can we change? How can we move this forward? How can we stop doing the things that are not serving us, like using resentment, like blaming, like pointing the finger, being superior, being righteous, you know. How can we put all those coping mechanisms down and actually work at how can we recover our closeness, our partnership, our intimacy?

Yes.

And I think that can really help with that is the word that's bandied around a lot, whilst communicate I'm like, yes, we need to communicate. Another word that's bandied around a lot in relationships is compromise. And that comes into my room a lot from my clients. And I always challenge that because I say my difficulty with compromise is I then end up with two unhappy people.

Yes.

And actually, I would much rather us keep talking and seek, you know, win/win. How can you both get what you want? Before we look at compromise, you know, compromise is like last resort. There will be a few things where we can't get a win/win. But most things, especially if we start with playing to strengths, you know, win/wins arrive. It's like, "oh yeah, but you're really good at that". "Yeah, I am really good at that". “Oh yeah. Okay. So, I'll do that" You know, within household chores for example, quite often one of you really gets quite a buzz from cleaning windows. And another one really gets quite a buzz from, you know, creating an absolutely pristine bathroom. And it's just kind of really easy. Oh, I'll do the windows. I'll do the bathroom. You know, I love cooking. I oh, I love baking, I hate making, you know, regular meals, but I love making special things. It's kind of like, okay, well, let's just go through everything that way first and do what we like.

I think being honest is a big thing, actually. You know, we talk about communication, but what about honest communication? Because I know definitely I really did not say properly things in past relationships. You know, just of saying, no, I don't want to do that. That's I mean, that's an impossible phrase for me to say, you know, and I'm getting better at it, but I'm just going to see what happens if I say, I don't want to do that, or actually, I do want to get an Uber. I don't want to walk or if those feel like such big things.

But you said earlier that you know about yourself that you are a massive pleaser. Yeah. And so, for pleasers, pleasing is a safety behaviour. It's the way we found of going through the worlds. And you talked about the colour of your skin and how, you know, there are there's genuine risks around walking in certain spaces with brown skin. And so, you've learned ways to stay safe. And it's turned into pleasing across the board. Yeah. So, it's like I know this about myself. I'm not going to fix that by beating up myself. It's like I need to show compassion. Of course I do pleasing. Of course you know and be kind. But I want to try and do less of it. And so, with the honesty thing, I think with pleasers, because pleasing often has come from a trauma history. It is a safety behaviour. It's often completely unconscious. And I'm saying yes, please to a cup of tea. I don't drink tea, but I'm being polite because I'm in an environment where people drink tea and it's like, yes, please. And you know, to say, no, thank you. It's like it's a huge deal. But I think sometimes we're as honest as we can be in the moment. It's like, you know, I look back in the past and I thought I was being honest, you know, hindsight is a is a cruel thing. Yeah. You know, we can see that wasn't honest!

But at the time it was the best I had. So, you know, it's growing our awakening to pleasing behaviours and resentment behaviours with an understanding that we're going to fall back into it because it's how we've got to this moment. I've got these behaviours. I know they're not useful, but and I want to stop doing them, and I'm going to have an agreement with you that I won't. But then when I do, I'll try and put my hand up and say, I've been judging you or I've been superior, or I'm saying you're wrong and I'm right.

Yes. That's interesting. Yeah. In a kind of less stressful moment, you know, when there's some space that you just then that's really interesting. Yeah. And just sort of admitting stuff to yourself. I know always at the end of a relationship, when you talk to your friends, you then unpick it all and you sort of think, why don't we just do that at the time, you know? So, we used to have a thing especially on, on first dates on online dating, but also later in, later along the line in the relationship of just going, is there anything you wished you'd said? Which is interesting. Just that question is really interesting. Is there anything that you wished you'd done? Is there anything that you did that you didn't want to do, that you'd said that you didn't want to say. Then you get to go. Why? And can I risk it? Can I risk just saying this has annoyed me? Or interestingly at the moment, I mean, it's a sort of, you know, I've read loads of things and I've watched loads of podcasts and sort of things about relationships over the ten years or so and you think, okay, we'll do some sort of check in to have some sort of regular check in with each other with my partner. And that's been really interesting. And we sort of laugh and go, are we going to check in? And actually, he's really up for it. So, every so often he goes, shall we do our check in now?

Oh I can't tell you. The clients who sign up to a daily check in, they fly. And the clients are like, oh no, I didn't want to. You know, they're sort of progress is much slower.

How do you suggest a daily check? I would think like kind of weekly or monthly or something, but yeah.

Oh, a daily. My daily check ins at the get go are using 'I' statements. So speak from the 'I' and it's 'I think', 'I feel', 'I want', 'I like' and I will just for two minutes, tell you something about me today, and then you will feed back what you've heard, and I'll go. No, I didn't have spinach with my beans. I had a cauliflower and it's oh, sorry. Yeah, yeah, of course you say cauliflower when I'm happy. You've heard me. You then speak for two minutes. I feedback what I've heard you say. It takes when you're skilled. It takes five minutes. Some couples do it first thing in the morning before they get out of bed. Some couples do it last thing at night as they're going to bed. Sometimes they work, you know, couples who travel, they work in different cities. At times they'll do it over the phone or on FaceTime. But just daily, starting with simple things, moving to more controversial things. And sometimes it's the launch of a, you know, a big meaty hour conversation. But the checking commitment is we're going to every day for five minutes check in how we are.

Interesting. Yes. I mean, checking in a slightly different way. That's really interesting what you've said there. I'm definitely doing that. But what we do is the kind of thing where we say, um, is there anything we need to address this week? Has anything come up where we felt annoyed with each other? Have we bugged each other in some way? Did we say, is there anything where we feel something's not been said out loud and that's been useful? And often the answer is no, you know, and then you just pursue that a bit more. You go, are you sure? Because I noticed the other day you slightly raised your eyes at something and I wondered, was that something you didn't actually end up saying? Yes. Oh, no. Well, it was a bit that, you know, and it's really useful, actually.

A weekly mop up of things that you've noticed, but you haven't spoken to at the time, literally that want to check in about beautiful. Love it. Really good practice. Really good practice.

If you can remember that it's our differences is what attracted us in the beginning and our differences are the building blocks of our future strength. If you can sort of intellectually sign up to that, then you're more likely to be able to resist my way or the highway. You know I'm right. You're wrong. Those sort of, you know, big sort of splits that can happen in a, in a conflict where, you know, you do it my way and it's kind of like, no, no, no, put that finger away. I was just wagging my finger there. Put that finger away and go. I have a real preference for this way, but I suspect you've got an alternative proposal.

Right. Yeah, that's a good way of saying it.

What would be your way? And can we, can we negotiate?

Yeah. That's right, because we think there is one way that we have learned from childhood or have learned from school, or our friends will do or just we believe is the only way it is. I mean, the whole world needs to be thinking about this at the moment, you know, in terms of differences when people from different countries go, oh, well, that's a cultural difference, or there's an age difference or but then when we find a partner, we think there should be no difference, you know? And actually, difference is glorious. We can't be in this world without differences.

But I think another final sort of what to do around the blame thing is together to grow your relationship support team. So, there'll be people that love both of you and talk to both of you. But then equally, I think you both I realise we're just speaking about regular sort of couple relationships here. Obviously, increasingly more and more people are in more complex relational systems. But in the couple, you need a support team for both of you, but you also need individual support. So, but these support people are not the people we were talking about before who go and collude and go, what a bastard. And I can't believe he did that or I can't believe she did that. You've got a support team. Someone who will say. "Really? Aileen, did you really say that?" And "did he really say that?" And. And What, you know, "what do you think you could have done differently" or "What would you like?" You know, people who will bring out the best you to engage with the partnership. Because I do hear from people who walk away from relationships prematurely. It's like they call time on it because the pain is so it's so painful when things go wrong and they call time and then later kind of think, gosh, I wonder if we'd had this toolbox, if we'd known to try that, if we'd had that support, maybe we could have we could have found a way forward, but we didn't manage it. So, while sometimes it is appropriate to call time, at other times it's, it's about doing a bit more work on a bit like, you know, some people in the spring deep clean their houses.

You know.

A bit like your relationship needs regular deep clean. Uh, detox, um, and attention.

Attention.

And often support is helpful with that.

Yeah. I think, you know, whenever I hear friends talking about wanting to break up and things, we always get to the point of going, well, have you reached out to get some professional help? And sometimes one partner wants to do that, and the other one doesn't. And that feels like a real stumbling block, because then there's this terrible feeling of because I always think when I'm talking to them, if only they could just go and talk to someone.

Yeah, or they get in my room sometimes one of them's been asking for years. And then when they say, that's it, I'm done. Then the partner says, can we go and talk to someone? And really, there's not a lot I can do because the person who's called time is done. Do you know if only the other person had been more receptive earlier. I do think, yes, if you are the kind of listener who would be open to talking to a professional, I can't stress enough that the value in doing that sooner rather than later, because the behaviours we were speaking about in the blame phase, they can be so they can become so entrenched. And behaviour change when something's been a habit for a long, long time is much harder than behaviour change. For something that you've only been doing for a few weeks or months.

Well, I would definitely attest to that because, you know, at the end of that 20 years, I came out of that relationship and realised so many parts of me had disappeared, had been submerged, had been suppressed, and that was not a horrendous relationship by any stretch. You know, I'm very good friends with my ex-husband, you know, and that's so, you know, you lose parts of yourself because you're entrenched in just this new way of being that you're now just living in. And when it ends, you go, Whoa! As this other creature emerges and you go, ah wait a minute. You know I'm not, I'm not to blame. But you know I am. I have some part in that why that happened.

Oh, Aileen, I think that's such a lovely place for us to end today because there's like. Yes, if it is bliss to blame, to separation, there will be all these wondrous discoveries and parts of yourself and parts of others to be found, and there will be life afterwards. And if your path is bliss to blame. Back to bliss, to blame, to bliss, to blame, to bliss. You know, within one partnership. You know, hats off to you. Well done for doing the work. Well done for staying open to the fact that we there will be life for us after this, this, this gritty phase. This is just a tricky time and it will pass if we do our work.

Clare 46:30

So, and actually on that, the beauty of the work is, even if the work leads to the two of you deciding to separate, that work has still got value for your next relationship.

Definitely.

Because without the work, we can leave, start again, leave, start again, leave start again. But just repeat the same relationship with a different actor. We're going to need to leave it there. Aileen, if you'd like to read about this, you'll find blogs on our website, The Sex and Relationships Podcast.com. You can follow us on social media. And thanks for listening. Thank you. Aileen.

Thanks, Clare. Bye.