Navigating the complexities of Christmas can be particularly challenging for those who have experienced religious trauma or disconnection from their previous faith communities. This conversation delves into strategies for being okay over the holiday season, emphasising the importance of awareness around triggers and the need for self-compassion. Host Sam and guest Jane reflect on their personal experiences with Christmas, sharing how their celebrations have evolved from church-centric traditions to more individualised, meaningful rituals. They discuss the significance of boundaries, especially in familial contexts, and encourage listeners to prioritise their well-being by recognising their needs and feelings. Ultimately, the episode offers practical tools and insights to foster a sense of connection and joy, regardless of one's past or current beliefs.

More About Jane

Jane Kennedy is a Sydney-based Counsellor. Jane has lived experience of religious trauma and is committed to supporting people as they leave church and/or faith. This experience, still frequently misunderstood, can be life-altering. She brings language and framing for the complexities of religious trauma to the counselling space and works with other Australian therapists to broaden knowledge among those working with affected clients. Jane has written her story, an e-book, The Sentimental Non-Believer, on Loving & Leaving God.

Connect With Us

• To find out more about Jane and her practice head to her website – https://janekennedycounselling.com.au/
• Or to connect with her on social media; you can find her on Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn

• You can find out more about Sam on her website – www.anchoredcounsellingservices.com.au
• To connect with Sam on Instagram – @anchoredcounsellingservices
• Want to contact with Sam about the podcast or therapy? Use this contact form.

I would like to begin by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the land on which I live and work, the Gundagara land and people.

I pay my respects to their elders, past, present and emerging, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.

I also want to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands on which you, our listeners, are joining us from today.

I recognise the deep connection that first nations people have to this land, their enduring culture and their commitment to the preservation and care for their country.

This land was never ceded and it always was and always will be Aboriginal land.

Hey there, and welcome to this special bonus episode of beyond the Surface.

In these episodes, we take a break from the personal stories and I get to chat with experts on all things related to religious trauma, cults and deconstruction.

These conversations are foundational and educational.

They provide deeper insights and understanding into the complexities of the experiences we hear in the stories.

Whether you're just beginning your journey, this is the first episode you're listening to, or maybe you're looking to expand your knowledge in general.

These episodes are packed with valuable information that will help you navigate wherever you are.

I'm your host, Sam, and this is beyond the Surface.

Hello and welcome to another bonus episode of beyond the Surface.

Today I am joined again by Jane Kennedy.

Welcome, Jane.

Thanks.

Good to be here.

I think this is like our fourth recording now.

I think we did your episode, my episode, the Collective, and now this one.

And we did the bonus one on that awful show that I always forget.

Oh, Prosper.

Yes, yes, yes.

This is your fifth time.

Gosh, you must, like.

Do you feel like a podcast pro now?

I'm practically your co host.

Oh, it is, Yeah, I forgot.

I completely forgot about the Prosper episode.

Yeah, I've blocked it out.

Yeah, I know.

Yeah.

I keep seeing articles about season two for that.

Oh, God.

We are not here to talk about.

Even though, like, that could very derail the conversation.

We're here to talk about Christmas.

Yes, Fun.

Christmas is a time post church or post deconstruction or during deconstruction, wherever you land.

And we are going to chat about how to be okay over Christmas and how to survive Christmas, because it can feel like a lot.

So I thought we would start with a little bit of like a personal.

What is Christmas for us?

What was Christmas?

What is Christmas now?

So what was Christmas like for you during church time, Jane?

Gosh, I was.

So, yeah, it was always a very special time, my sort of anniversary of getting saved.

And I didn't come from a Christian family, and so that was kind of exciting to be part of all of the.

All of the celebration and all of the color and joy with my church community.

There's probably only, I don't know, 100 people there at that point.

And it went on to become a megachurch.

And so it's hilarious now looking back and remembering all of the kind of key pastors and key players who were there right at the start doing their goofy dances, and we had, like, a big carols in the park.

And I think one of the things that really even drew me in then was that carols that were so familiar to me were, like, being played with a band, and it was kind of cool, and there was young people there, and it was all very exciting.

So, yeah, it was a really special time for me growing up, for that reason, but also just because, I don't know, the.

The church that I was a part of or every year had a Christmas spectacular.

And so I got to be in that, and I got to be part of that, and that was just so exciting, you know, like, it was the place where you could invite your friends, and it was.

It was just a vibe.

And.

And, yeah, and as I say, like, my.

My home wasn't a Christian home.

I was the only child of a single mother, you know, so it was quite a small affair.

So, yeah, being part of that kind of bigger church environment, that church community where it was celebrated and it was.

It was big, was just.

It was really special to me.

And even now, like, there's.

There's some carols and things that can be super triggering, but even now, there's some really beautiful, like, oh, holy night, like, still gets me, you know, that could still bring a bit of a tear to my eye.

Um, but, yeah, it's reflecting back on all of that is, like, all of this whole experience is.

It comes with mixed emotions, for sure.

Yeah, absolutely.

I think one of the things that will probably be a reoccurring thing is that both of us didn't come from Christian homes, and I think that that actually influences how Christmas was and how Christmas is now.

I was.

I just.

I remember feeling like I was in on something that my family was not at Christmas.

Like, I had, like, the trade secrets at Christmas you know, we would decorate the house, and it kind of looked a little bit like a Christmas shop.

It was that decorated and.

And my biggest thing was that I really wanted to have, like, we had wall decals and everything, but on my bedroom door, I would always have, like, the.

Don't forget the Christ in Christmas.

That's right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like, I had the trade secrets in the family, and I needed to ensure that, like, it wasn't all, like, Santa.

And reindeers and Jesus is the reason for the season.

Yes.

And so, like, I remember, but also, like, Christmas was exhausting because, like, church, it's just, like, everything is in overdrive at Christmas.

We didn't have a spectacular, but we did have a Christmas show or Carol's night.

And, you know, when you're a part of the worship team, you and part.

And leading youth group, you kind of are, like, doing double the amount of work.

So it was just, like, exhausting as well.

What is.

What is Christmas like for you now?

How has it evolved over time?

Yeah, it's.

It's funny because it was an evolution.

It didn't kind of go from all of that to it being quite different.

But I think it's.

It's now very much about family.

Like, it's.

It's about my kids.

It's about my.

My best friends.

It's about spending time with them and their kids, and it's.

It's food.

You know, like, food is such a big part of it for me, that.

And for me, that is.

That's creative and that is, like, tactile and regulating it.

Making food for me is not.

Well, during the week it is, but, like, you know, making beautiful food.

Yeah.

Is part of wellness for me.

Like, it's a.

It's a really creative.

Really lovely creative outlet for me.

So Christmas is fun like that.

So I think the traditions that my kids remember, that my friends remember, it's.

Yeah, it's about those kind of anchors, those touchstones of, you know, things that you do every year.

But it is.

It is a lot I've learned over the years to take the pressure off it.

So it's just a couple of days and it can feel like this massive thing because literally, like, you know, the.

As soon as you get over Halloween, the Christmas decorations are everywhere.

Yeah.

And.

And it feels like it drags on forever, but it's.

It's just a couple of days.

And then in.

In Australia, it's.

It's summer, you know, and so there's a lot of kind of lying around.

And if I can, if I'm lucky, I can go to the beach, I can have a swim, I can eat mangoes.

You know, it's too hot to do anything else.

So I've now learned to associate it with kind of rest and downtime and just connecting with people.

Yeah, yeah, I think, I mean, and we're recording this at the beginning of November and I think we've had Christmas decorations out for about three weeks already in like, at least.

And.

And it's kind of like it's such a juxtaposition to see Christmas decorations next to Halloween decorations, especially because in Australia we don't really do Halloween all that much.

And so it's just such a weird juxtaposition.

But yeah, I think for me also, you know, it's just a time.

It's downtime now.

Like Christmas is like downtime.

It's watching cheesy, you know, Christmas rom com movies as opposed to about the Nativity.

And my movie structure has changed on.

Yes, my decorations have changed.

I'm very.

I have embraced the Grinch, which I would never have done, you know, five or six years ago.

Not because I am a Grinch, but just because, like, it's not Jesus.

And so like, it would never have been a part of a part of it.

And it's, I think, coming back to like the fun and playfulness that you can have at Christmas because there is such color and wonder that can happen.

And it's supposed to be a time of joy, but it's, you know, it used to be a time of pressure and an expectation.

And so it's, I think, finding the playfulness and the joy.

Joy.

I still find Christmas carols difficult sometimes, particularly like, oh, Holy Night is one that I struggle with.

Oh, really?

Yeah.

Because it was my favorite.

And I have a particular person who used to sing it at your spectaculars, who I have, like, seen in my brain.

And.

And I think it's just, it's triggering former memories and things like that.

There are other, there are other carols that like, you know, mean nothing.

Like, ironically, like Silent Night means nothing to me.

But there are other ones that are much more difficult, but I think it's just, it's not about not being triggered.

And we'll probably talk a little bit about that.

Like, you know, your nervous system.

It's not about not being triggered.

It's about being able to navigate those triggers because, you know, that song will never not have memories attached to it.

It's not about that.

So.

But yeah, I.

So I mean, one of the first Things that I had planned for us to chat about was triggers and, like, what people might be experiencing and how they can perhaps prepare for those triggers that they might not necessarily even be aware of being there.

What comes to mind, I think kind.

Of being able to identify ahead of time what they are likely to be.

Yeah.

Can be helpful because then you don't feel quite as blindsided.

So kind of.

And everyone's situation obviously is going to be really different depending on, you know, what they're planning to do and the complexities of it.

But I think kind of knowing what your tender spots are likely to be is really important and then just nurturing that, you know, it's the classic thing that, you know, as therapists, we find ourselves saying all the time with people like, this is, I feel like this.

What do I need next?

You know, I can't avoid the trigger.

And I'm feeling that, you know, in my body.

I'm feeling shaky, I'm feeling teary, I'm, you know, whatever it is, what do I need next?

And having the thing that you need next ready to go, whether that's actually just leaving a room or saying no to, you know, an event or, I mean, I know people that just go to seats at Christmas time just to avoid the whole thing, you know, or just, I don't know, just planning to do things differently or having.

Having an off ramp ready to go if you need to just exit the building.

Whatever it is, being aware of it and knowing how to soothe yourself through that.

Yeah.

And I think not comparing your triggers to other people as well is really important because what is going to trigger one person is not necessarily going to.

For somebody else is.

Is also really important and also not beating yourself up about the fact that, like, oh, maybe I should be triggered by this.

Like, if I'm not, like, if there's something wrong with me, just like, we love that.

Just go with that.

And.

And it's not about.

I mean, we talk a lot about as therapists not comparing traumas.

Let's not also compare triggers.

Right.

Because what is triggering for one is not necessarily going to be for the other.

I mean, like, oh, Holy Night is a perfect example, right?

Like, you still hear that and there's warmth and there's like, beauty in that.

I hear that and I go, oh, yeah.

So it's just like, you know, something as simple as, like, a song might be a lot for one person, but not another.

And I think the, like, the intensity that can come with some of these at this time of year is is real because we're tired.

You know, like our resilience is already low.

We're super busy.

You know, those of us with kids are running around trying to sort of make magic, you know, like trying to make everything right for our families.

Others of us are, you know, already anticipating the ache of maybe loneliness or disconnection or like there's just, we're already, we're already feeling a bit wobbly.

I think, you know, it's already time that we naturally want to rest and so it's okay to like, we don't have to muscle or push through.

And I think that particularly with so much going on in the world at the moment, it's really easy to minimize and go, well, other people have it so much worse.

I should just toughen up.

But you're allowed to feel what you're feeling, you know, like drop into your body and just, you know, bring compassion to that.

And it's, it tends to shift it.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I think, you know, that's probably a nice little segue into like the fact that loneliness and isolation is something that a lot of people, particularly those who might be post church or who have had to, whether by choice or otherwise, disconnect from their family and then from their community.

And so isolation and loneliness are very, very real and present experiences for a lot of people over Christmas.

And it's not, it's not easy to be disconnected at any time of the year, but it's really not easy at a time where we are supposed to feel connected.

Christmas.

Yeah.

Is, you know, even in, you know, non religious circles.

It's a time.

Yeah.

Time of gathering and a time of all of these really beautiful language.

And it can feel really lonely if you don't get together with the people that you would like to be gathering with.

Yeah, absolutely.

I think it's, it's finding, finding places where you belong, you know, even if that's one person.

Yeah.

And even if they're not in the same suburb, like just finding connection and places and spaces where you belong when you, where you are celebrated in some way.

Yeah.

And I think that's also another really important thing to have ready to go before you get there.

Yeah, yeah.

And virtual connection is still connection.

Absolutely.

That's a really important thing.

I think we're so used to, you know, hearing that we need to be in the same room like that we've got to gather together.

And so I think it's easy for us to think that, well, we don't have anyone in our immediate reach in the immediate town that we might be in.

But virtual connection is still connection.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

And I think that that's really important.

One of the things that I actually just thought of as, like, the.

In terms of navigating triggers, and I.

This might just be like a my generation, but I would encourage people to steer clear of Facebook memories because I don't know about you, but, like, Christmas was a time, like, you know, social media preaching was a thing and event social media evangelizing was a thing.

And.

And I am already saying, like, I'm a chronic checker of my Facebook memories because, like, I also really love seeing, you know, the photos and the things that I actually do like to remember.

But, you know, it's.

It's one of those things where as it gets closer to Christmas, I'm even, like, I'm very conscious that the things that I would have written were very different.

The.

You know, that I would have changed my cover photos and images to being ones of, you know, Christmas themed and an evangelistic and all of that sort of thing.

And so if Facebook memories are a thing in your world, I would encourage you to go gently with them or steer clear of them all together if you can.

Particularly, you know, as the days inch closer to Christmas.

Because sometimes it can be sobering and great for us to realize how far we've come, and other times it can be overwhelming for us to remember who we were and.

And Facebook memories tend to do that.

Yes, they do.

Oh, good old social media, where we tracked everything, right?

Yes.

Do you not have that, Jane?

No, I do.

Oh, you do, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Particularly because in the early days, I was so prolific on social media, particularly Facebook, and now I hardly ever check Facebook, but, like.

But sometimes, you know, it does, or it'll pop into your messenger or something like, oh, look, here's this memory.

Whoa.

Yeah.

It's a lot, right?

Yeah.

What other than virtual connection?

If we sort of circle back to that isolation and loneliness, what would you suggest for people who are feeling perhaps isolated and maybe their disconnection from the people around them was not by their choice?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, that's.

That's really hard, isn't it?

Like, I think.

I think you have to find support somewhere.

You got to find, as I say, like, even one person who you can connect with in some way, even if it feels superficial and not, you know, what you're really craving.

Yeah, I know Renee Brown says that if you.

If you go around the world, this is not exactly.

But if you go around the place, go around the world looking for reasons why you don't belong.

You'll always find it.

And so I think it's.

It's being careful not to.

Not to do that, but instead to.

To do the opposite, you know, and try to find places where you.

You can belong, even if that's just one relationship, one connection, and, and trying to find the courage, I guess, to reach out to people and just go, can, you know, can we catch up for whatever it is or.

Yeah, just connect in, in any way you can.

And I think, as I said before, like, just try to take the pressure off.

It is just a couple of days.

It's a few public holidays.

Yeah.

You can get through it.

But.

Yeah, connect however you can.

Just reach out however you can.

Yeah.

And I think sometimes, you know, and I.

I'm conscious that in some areas of this won't necessarily be as prominent as others, but if you're in a space where you can volunteer and go out and be with other people who are, you know, also feeling, you know, potentially isolated or lonely for a vast variety of different reasons.

Right.

Like, they might not necessarily be the same scenario, but loneliness is loneliness and the antidote to that is connection.

And so if, you know, if you do find yourself feeling lonely sometimes going out and, and just connecting with other random people in that scenario, if, you know, there are often.

I know that we, like in our town, and I know that in lots of different towns there are often like community Christmas lunches and things like that where generally people gather and they might not know one another, but it's.

It's just being in the presence of other people that can make us feel even just marginally less alone in that moment on that, like on actual Christmas Day when it feels probably the heaviest.

Yeah, for sure there are.

Yeah.

And.

And I think I find that, you know, if I'm feeling something in particular, often giving and giving that to other people can be really helpful in terms of.

If I'm feeling lonely, let's find other people who are.

Let's, you know, either volunteer or go to a community lunch or something like that where you're not the only person.

And I think so often, particularly in this space, it can feel like we're the only people who are.

Yeah.

Space.

But we're not.

And.

Yeah, fine.

I think.

Sorry, I was gonna say, I think be careful or be mindful also of your self talk in that, you know, like, that it's not a.

It's not a reflection on.

On who you are.

It's not a reflection on your Worthiness or your value, it's just a reflection of your circumstances.

Yeah, I mean, I think, I think at any time where there are feelings of isolation or disconnection or loneliness, it's easy to think that we're the problem and, and we get into a cycle in a spiral of negative self talk.

But separating, I mean, this is like the premise of narrative therapy, which is, you know, the problem is the problem, the person is never the problem.

And so it's coming back to, like you said, that it's the circumstances that are the problem or the circumstances that are what is being experienced.

But your worth, your value, your inherent goodness doesn't change based on those circumstances.

And that's not easy.

That negative self talk cycle is not easy to get out of.

But the more that we can be aware as to whether it's happening or not, the more ability we have to understand it and to respond to it compassionately.

Rather than going, oh, you're in a negative self self talk cycle, like, gosh, like, suck it up, get out of it.

Like, let's like not hit the negative self talk with more negative, negative.

Let's like respond to the negative self talk with some compassion and some understanding as opposed to any sort of like gross negative bypassing.

Because that's not fun and that's not also, it's also not helping anything in terms of, I guess navigating.

You know, we talked a little bit about, you know, different triggers and that everybody is going to be triggered by something different.

But in terms of actually navigating in the moment, if I'm triggered by something, what can people do?

Yeah, I mean, I think, I think bringing awareness, as you were saying, to what your triggers are likely to be.

And so I think that's the doing a bit of nervous system 101 kind of going, what happens when I'm kind of, that, that activating energy of a trigger happens?

Do I, do I, do I go into fights?

Like, do I want to punch someone, do I want to run?

Or do I freeze up, you know, or do I try to kind of flatter my way out of, you know, a situation like, what, what am I actually doing?

What?

And we all do all of those things, I think, but noticing what we tend towards, I think is really important and going, how can I, how can I support or complete that cycle, that activating cycle in my body?

So noticing, oh, I'm, I'm feeling triggered, what do I need next?

But also what is happening in my body if I want to run, can I, you know, even If I can't actually run, can I kind of pull my hands together like a fist and like.

And you can't see me, but I'm kind of pretending to run underneath the desk, you know, like, you can kind of get your.

Get your feet going, get your legs going.

Can you get up and walk around the block?

If you feel yourself frozen, can you really gently kind of just stroke your arm or your face or your head or just kind of bring softness and gentleness to that breeze?

You know, if you.

If you feel like you.

You want to fight, you know, like, can you literally just kind of push against a wall or can you get a pillow to smack down?

Like, just noticing what your body wants to do in that.

That somatic or that embodied kind of reaction.

Because a trigger or an emotion of any sword is just an emotional sensation.

It's not just an emotional sensation, but it's.

It's nothing more kind of powerful than that, if you know what I mean.

Like, it's not some.

It's not something that we don't necessarily have agency over.

So I think bringing awareness and.

And compassion to what you need in that moment and going with that as best you can.

If you can't do anything in the moment, like, if you have to sit through something or if you can't leave a situation as soon as you can, then tend to it.

You know, just because you kind of come out of a situation, you go, well, I feel okay now.

I think it's really important to still give your body what you needed in that moment.

So I.

I feel like I didn't have a voice.

I feel like I clammed up.

I froze.

I didn't respond in the way that I did.

So then give yourself that opportunity.

Like, even if you walk around the block and talk to yourself, like, you know, you can reply, you can say what you wanted to say, you can express what you need to express, and maybe you need to go for a run, Maybe you need to kind of go for a swim or, like, do something that gets your heart rate up.

But I think it's.

It's important to tend to our triggers and not to.

Not to minimize them.

But the first step is always awareness.

What's actually happening in my body is that instant headache behind my eyes or that shakiness or the increased heart rate or the need to kind of throw up or something.

Like, what.

What is.

What is going on?

You know, my.

My instinct always, when I notice a trigger is my hand comes to my chest.

It's like, it's always Before I even realized that's what I was doing, I was trying to support myself.

And so I think notice the ways in which your body is both telling you what's going on, but also wants to be a resource for you to support the impact of that trigger.

Yeah, I think it's.

When I'm often talking about listening to your body with my clients, I'm often going, sometimes we think that.

That listening is, like, a cognitive thing still.

Right.

Because, like, we think about listening as, like, a cognitive thing, listening to someone else.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so I will often sort of go, sometimes noticing is.

Is good language because it moves us out of listening with our ears and feeling with our body.

And so, like, what am I noticing?

Like, what sensations am I noticing?

And rather than, like, we kind of, like, you know, the emotion is important.

Important.

Obviously, that's what, you know, we're not saying the emotion doesn't matter.

The emotion absolutely matters.

But the emotion is manifesting a sensation in.

In our bodies.

And so, you know, it sounds.

My clients sometimes think I'm insane because, like, they might go, like, I'm.

My shoulder blades are really tense or tight.

And I go, well, if your shoulder blades could talk, what might they ask for right now?

And so it's like, rather, it sort of gets us out of our head as to, like, what do I need?

But, like, what does my body need?

And that's the essence of, like, listening to what our body needs in the moment.

But I think, you know, if the word listen doesn't work for you, shift it and change it to something else.

Change it to noticing.

Change it to, you know, bringing awareness to your body or whatever it is.

But it's often we can feel regulated in the.

In the moment by responding to what our body is doing, as opposed to just going like a cognitive.

This is what's happened.

This is how I'm feeling.

This is what I need to do.

Like, that's a very.

Like.

I was gonna say it's very, like, CBT approach, but.

Oh, it's just like a very str.

It's structured.

And, you know, some people respond to structure.

Structure.

And that's great, but it's just about what is, you know, what does my body need in this moment and responding to that.

And.

And I think having, like, really, like, it doesn't have to be anything huge.

It doesn't have to be, you know, something that takes a lot of effort.

Sometimes it can be walking into the bathroom and just, like, running your hands under cold.

Yeah.

Under cold water and just like, you know, nobody needs to know that that's what you're doing because you're in a bathroom.

But sometimes it's going outside and just taking a couple of deep breaths.

Like it's.

It doesn't have to be anything huge or fancy.

It's just signaling to your body that you're aware of what's happening and you're trying to respond to it.

Yeah.

You're okay.

Yeah.

And the.

You can't, you know, further to your CBT comment, you can't out think a trigger.

Yeah.

You know, like, you can't out rationalize the trigger.

You can't sort of.

And I feel like we can use our minds as a resource once we have dropped into our bodies.

You know, I figured, I think that that's so much more possible once we've been able to connect with what's going on with our bodies.

The other thing that is interesting is that the alert system of the brain is our sense of smell has a direct line to the alert system of the brain.

It just goes straight there.

So anything that is.

I've got like so many of these little oils and things around.

This one says be gentle with yourself.

But it's a beautiful.

Oh, so I'm smelling that now and I'm just instantly relaxed.

No, but I think we know, we know what the smells are that like, and particularly around this time of year, one that is beautiful for me is fresh pine.

Yeah.

You know, like with the Christmas tree and so that's beautiful.

You know, if you're, if you're in a.

An awkward family situation and there's a fresh tree in the living room, just go and put your face in it and take a deep breath, you know, like, but having, having something in your, in your handbag or, you know, close that you can smell can instantly ground you and just bring yourself, you can bring yourself back to the present.

And that can help bypass the, the trigger.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I mean, if you, if there is like an element of like you have some sort of ability or control around the way that the day goes or the way that those days go.

Food is another big smell as well.

And you know, for me, food is not associated with like church Christmas.

It's associated with family Christ Christmas for me, which is a much more safer space.

So if you have the ability to bake or to cook or something and you.

And you are able to do that, it, you know, the aroma of food just fills a space and, and that's not, you know, that can sometimes be a really grounding thing to do.

I mean, as well as.

Like you said, like, there is, you know, a regulating aspect to even just like the actual process of baking or cooking or whatever it is.

But yeah, the aroma of food can.

Can be.

If it can be a safe space for us.

If it's not, don't do that, obviously, but.

But it can be.

You know, this apple pie is just like, wholesome, so.

And it can be part of creating your own new rituals as well.

You know, like, we know.

I never had cinnamon scrolls growing up, but, you know, like, maybe that could be something that you could learn to make.

You know, like, it's just.

I don't know.

I think creating your own new rituals is a really important part of a turn towards something new, not just a turn away from.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I mean, and we will talk a little bit about new rituals in a bit, I suspect, but in terms of like, offering yourself support and compassion and love in that regulatory sense, I'd love you to tell everybody about havening.

Love to talk about havening.

How long have you got?

Havening is such a beautiful psychosensory psychotherapy.

That is, it works in a similar way to EMDR for trauma reprocessing and desensitizing.

But the four movements associated with it are actually beautiful grounding tools just in and of themselves.

And before I take clients down the sort of trauma processing road, we always just start with getting used to the exercises as grounding tools.

And for me, I do them every day just as part of wellbeing.

For me, it's like just drinking water or brushing my teeth or, you know, like, they're just a couple of minutes is all you need.

Actually, 30 seconds is all you need with the brain imaging to see a shift in, you know, reactivity if you are triggered or heightened.

But they create these beautiful movements, create what we kind of call like a safety soup in the brain.

So they're releasing oxytocin.

They're releasing those.

These beautiful delta waves that are present when we sleep.

And so they're taking us into this.

This place where the brain is able to calm down, basically.

And so it signals safety to the body, it signals safety to the nervous system.

And so where we can find ourselves becoming heightened.

And whenever you feel your body bracing, like your shoulders are up near your ears, or you kind of not really breathing deeply, you know, you're kind of pulling yourself in, and, you know, maybe it is with those short, sore shoulder blades you mentioned before, or your neck hurts or you're getting headaches or whatever.

That's your body bracing against something.

Like, you literally kind of going, whoa, what's about to come at me?

And so bringing kind of awareness, observing all of that and then being able to go.

I can actually signal safety to my body so that it can start to just.

Just loosen the grip.

You know, the brace can kind of relax a little bit.

It can help asleep.

It can help in the moment when you feel heightened and triggered.

It can help you before you're about to go into a stressful situation, and certainly helps recover from something that felt big or overstimulating.

So I'll just do.

It's tricky when we're in a podcast, but I'll.

We'll just do two.

And the first one is just really simply just rubbing your hands together like you were, you know, maybe washing them under a tap, but maybe a little bit slower than that, or even kind of the action of putting hand cream on.

So maybe like, put a.

Put a timer on for 30 seconds and just see how that feels.

And sometimes in between clients, I will do this for five minutes, maybe 10 minutes.

And it just helps ground me, Just helps me come back to the present.

Just feels really nice.

Yeah.

And you just.

You're literally just telling your brain, you're telling your nervous system, we're good, we're okay, we're safe right now.

And because my body is so used to these movements as.

As grounding movements.

Look at me.

I start to sway when I do it as well, but.

But already, like, even after a few seconds, I can already feel my body just starting to relax because it's so used to that connection.

This is what we do to ground and to calm.

So that's the first one.

The second one is you cross your arms over your chest, and so your fingers are at the top of your.

Your shoulders, and then it's just a downward stroke to your elbow, and then kind of like flicking away, just downward strokes.

And this, I think, is my favorite one.

A lot of my clients really love this one as well, particularly those that don't get a lot of touch.

It's a really beautiful.

Oh, I've already.

I get.

I do.

I get goosebumps.

I love it.

I get tingles.

It's just beautiful.

But, yeah, again, 30 seconds up to sort of, you know, when we go through the trauma processing with these movements, you hear for 20 minutes, and it just feels beautiful.

But you can do it for as long as you're like, people do this before they sleep at night or just to kind of, you know, become grounded and settled before something big.

So really, really simple.

And.

And it always is the really simple things.

You know, it's.

It's not usually.

Often we feel like when we have a really big reaction or an emotion or something feels really big and overwhelming, we feel like we need a really big intervention.

But usually we just need something small, something simple, something accessible, something that we can do right now.

And.

And these are two really, really beautiful resources.

Yeah.

That just.

Just help the nervous system go.

Yep.

We're okay.

We're good.

We got this.

We're safe.

We're not running from a tiger right now.

Not yet, anyway.

The thing that I love about the first one is that it's so.

It's almost so small that, like, other people would not even notice that you're doing it.

I do it in public.

I love that.

Yeah.

I love the stuff that you can do that you can just do whenever you need to, irrespective of people noticing or singing.

And.

Yeah.

And I, you know, even just like adding a hand cream adds, like, extra sensory elements to that.

And.

And I, you know, particularly for those who identify as female, that's like a very normal, natural thing to do.

Right.

Is to put hand cream on.

And so.

And so it's like, it's such a simple thing that nobody is going to think any other wiser as to, like, what the is she doing or what are they doing?

And so I love.

I love that.

I love those little things that, you know, you don't have to take yourself away to do.

You can just do it in the moment.

You can do it.

I have clients that do the hand one under the table.

Yeah.

Meeting, like, just to calm themselves down.

And if you want to take it a step further, I think as part of the sort of preparation for this season that is going to be, you know, feel big and triggering.

You can even create kind of sayings or mantras to go with these exercises.

So my go to always is right now, in this moment, I'm okay.

It has a bit of a rhythm to it, like a heartbeat.

Right now, in this moment, I'm okay.

And I talk to myself like that.

But if it's a specific thing, like, I think talking about boundaries with family and friends around this time as well, it.

It's.

It's safe to disappoint people.

Yes.

You know, so even if you're trying to.

You're feeling like you're.

I have to make a phone call to tell someone that I can't come to this event.

And, you know, you're already panicking about it.

You can.

You can do these exercises and take some deep breaths and just go.

It's actually safe for me to disappoint people.

Yeah, it's okay.

It's okay to be misunderstood.

I can handle it.

You know, so find some, I guess, supportive or resourcing words to go with the actions as well, and that can help kind of connect the.

The association between the safety of something that, you know, doesn't always feel safe.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I mean, and it's using language that feels right for you, because, like, sometimes, you know, you hear affirmations or mantras and you go, that's just, like, really fluffy for me.

And it's like.

Yeah.

And.

Yeah.

You know, and sometimes fluffy is nice.

Like, one of my favorites is like, hand on heart, I'm safe, I'm loved, I'm.

Well.

Like, it's so simple, but it's really beautiful.

And sometimes I go, I am allowed to say fucking no.

Right?

Like, maybe that's my drop for that day, and that's what I need to signal to my body.

And so sometimes we like things that are nice and fluffy and warm and beautiful, and other times we want it to have a sense of power and authority, like self authority and empowerment.

Clap your hands.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, okay, let's talk about boundaries, because I love boundaries.

Love talking about them.

My favorite saying for my.

That my clients know, like, one of is no is a complete sentence.

Right.

It's my favorite thing.

We don't need to.

We don't need to have a reason outside of that.

But boundaries are terrifying.

Yeah.

Terrifying.

Yeah.

Little Christian girl.

Like, people pleasers, like, come on.

Yes.

And also, like.

And I mean, I want to sidestep that as well.

It's not just sweet little Christian girls, but just, like, you know, any.

Any person.

Yes, yeah, absolutely.

But it's just, you know, as Christians, you are not taught to put your needs ahead of anything, essentially.

But, like, your needs.

I mean, we.

In my home church, my former home church, Gosh, I always catch myself doing that.

It's so weird.

In my former home church, they, like, we have banners at the front, like, life is not about you.

Right.

It was, like, literally there for me to see.

Life is not about you, but all about this and his heart for humanity.

Although they weren't.

They were really good at the first banner, not so good at the second banner.

Does humanity not include me?

Yes, I know.

Anyway, we won't go there.

But, like, you know, so it was.

You're not.

You're just not taught to, like, even acknowledge that you have needs, let alone honor them.

And so I think, you know, particularly if you are.

This is probably, you know, particularly for those who are still connected, who are still going to, you know, family Christmas or, you know, I have some people who still, you know, who sit through and suffer through church, Christmas, church, and things like that.

And so in terms of boundaries, what are your top tips?

Jane?

Yeah, this is something I'm so great at.

I know I have become so much better.

I've had to learn.

I've had to learn that it is that.

That you.

That boundaries, by definition, keep me kind of in that, you know, a place that is right for me or safe for me.

And they are going to piss people off.

Yeah.

So that's where you have to create that connection to safety, that it's okay to disappoint people.

It's okay to be misunderstood.

Yeah.

Because your boundary will necessarily make other people disappointed, uncomfortable.

You know, there'll be a whole reaction that, you know, comes and, and sometimes.

Sometimes that's, oh, okay, well, you know, let's see you another time.

Or sometimes that can be nasty.

You know, like, sometimes the consequences can be really difficult to cope with, and they can be part of relationships that are really fraught as well.

So I think just bringing a lot of care to knowing what is right for you, knowing that you actually don't have to go to places where you are not where you don't feel okay, you know, like, you don't have to go, you don't have to be there.

And it's okay for others to handle their own reactions to that.

And that's actually not your responsibility.

So I think, you know, oh, but I'm going to make them feel bad or they put so much work in, or they really wanted to see me, or, you know, you know, anytime you're acting out of obligation, you're masking, you know, and.

And there's.

There's times, obviously, where we have to do things that feel uncomfortable and we, you know, you can sort of push through something that is important enough, you know, like where, you know, that it actually, you've thought it through and, and being there out, and the discomfort from being there outweighs, you know.

You know, it depends on the situation.

Sometimes you go, actually, no, I just need to be there and I'll just suck it up and it'll be okay.

But think that through.

Yes, because you are actually allowed to go, no, I don't want to be there, and I don't have to go.

So I think it's.

It's figuring out, like we said at the start of the conversation, how does my body react?

What are my.

What are the sensations that happen when I'm triggered?

What is my body wanting to do?

Do I want to run?

Do I freeze up?

Like, what is going on in my body?

Who are the people and the places?

Where are the places where that happens?

What is.

What is the external and the internal stimulus that it happens when I am noticing those reactions?

And.

And basically, what's the, like, way up the cost?

Yeah.

So.

So is it.

Is it worth it?

And I think the other thing that is super important for me, when I do have to kind of mask a little bit and push a little bit, do something that is important for me to do, But I don't 100% want to.

Do you have to factor in recovery time?

Yes.

So you got to give yourself a couple of whatever it is, days, hours, whatever, to be able to go.

I'm just going to go and collapse in the corner somewhere the next day to recover from the way I needed to extend myself there.

And that may be worth it because you want to be with your kids or you want to be with.

You know, like, you want to be with people that are important to you, but it's in a.

It's in an environment that doesn't necessarily feel safe.

So there's just so many variables, and I think it's important to know the way that your body is communicating with you and becoming aware of that and then, like, listening, doing what's right for you and your body in that.

In that situation.

And if you need to talk it through with someone, do that.

Yeah.

You know, like, just.

Just go.

Does this sound a bit crazy?

Like, what do you think?

Like, would it be fatal if I didn't go to this thing?

Like, would that be okay?

You know, because sometimes I think we can also just make things bigger in our heads than they actually are.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I mean, I think if you are going to go to the thing, Whatever the thing is, because you've, you know, deemed it worth the risk or worth the discomfort or worth whatever it is, it doesn't mean that you can't still have boundaries within that.

Right.

Like, you can go to the thing, but it doesn't mean that you have to talk about all of your life with these people.

Right.

So, like, it might be we all.

I mean, Jane and I would use, like, parts language in our work, and so I'm gonna, like, use that a little bit here, which is that, like, we all have like an analytical part that, you know, in this moment we can appeal to that and go, what am I comfortable talking about and what am I not comfortable talking about?

And potentially even coming up with stock standard phrases, statements that if somebody brings up, you know, church or brings up your job or, you know, your family or whatever it is the thing that you don't want to talk about, it's Christmas, let's not talk about that.

Like, whatever, like whatever it is in language that feels comfortable for you, whether it be, you know, my natural personality is to use humor, which is like, it's Christmas day, let's not talk about work, let's not talk about whatever it is and use it to deflect to start talking about something else.

But it might be very, you know, straight to the point of, I don't really feel comfortable talking about that.

Let's talk about this instead.

But just because you're choosing to go to the thing doesn't necessarily mean that your boundaries have to go out the window with that decision.

Yeah, you can have boundaries within that.

And practice that stuff.

As you say before you go, like, yes, I'm just going to stop you there.

Oh, I actually, I think, I think my phone's ringing.

Just take it back to the bathroom.

You know, just have those things ready.

And yeah, you don't owe anyone anything.

Yeah.

And, and I think, you know, that you don't owe them anything is a really good thing to remember if you choose not to go to the thing.

Right.

Like, you know, we've been talking about, you know, what it's like to go, but you also don't have to.

And I, I think something that I want to highlight here is also, if you are someone who is in a queer relationship and your family doesn't accept your partner and doesn't want to partner to go or to attend family Christmas, you are allowed to not go.

You are, you do not need to, like, you do not need to suffer through that.

You are allowed to be like, you know, what if I, you know, happy to come to family Christmas with the stipulation that your partner comes also.

Right.

Like, you do not need to do the thing if they are not creating a safe environment from the get go.

And rejecting who you love in that moment is not creating a safe environment from the get go.

And you don't owe them your presence if they won't have both of your presences, because that is, you know, a very real experience for a lot of people out there.

So I Just want to acknowledge that, you know, you don't have to meet them with anything if they're not going to meet you with safety.

Yeah.

So, yeah.

And I mean, coming back to, like, what I had said, which is that no is a complete sentence, and you don't actually have to explain yourself to people, and particularly those who were socialized as female growing up.

We have a chronic ability to apologize at the beginning of every sentence.

And actually, you don't have to apologize.

And sometimes offering, you know, you might.

You might actually want to see these people, but maybe you don't want to go to church with them, or maybe you don't want to do the family Christmas.

And so it can be helpful to, you know, not just acknowledge what you don't want to do, but what you do want to do.

And so you might go, look, I don't really feel comfortable coming to church, but flick me a message when you get home, and I'd love to pop around and see you guys afterwards.

And so it's honoring what you want and also what you don't want in the same sentence, because, you know, it's also.

It's important to acknowledge that you don't just.

Not everybody cuts people off, and not everybody is disconnected, and some people don't want that, and that's also okay.

Oh, boundaries are fun.

I mean, by fun, I mean they're not fun, but I mean, like, I think it's also.

You sort of highlight it at the beginning when talking about boundaries, which is that actually boundaries are not about other people.

They're for you.

Right.

Like, they're to keep you safe there, to honor what you want, what you need, and what expectations you have.

And so, you know, to circle back to what Jane said, which is, you know, if your boundaries create discomfort or disappointment for the other person, that's okay.

Yeah, That's.

You don't have to manage their discomfort.

Your boundaries are for you, not for them.

You just.

It's just about finding ways to communicate those boundaries to other people.

Yeah.

Okay, let's talk about some fun stuff, which is like redefining Christmas and creating new traditions.

What's a fun new tradition you've created?

I think it's just like I was saying about the smell of the pine tree.

Like, I've.

I've always.

Yeah, I've always made a bit of a kind of ritual around that, like going.

Choosing a.

Having it, like, the prettiest lights, and just trying to create a.

A really beautiful environment, even if it's really simple, even if there was only.

Only lights on the tree and nothing else.

But I don't know, like, there's always, you know, photos of my kids that they made in preschool at Christmas time that come out on a decoration and, you know, the baubles and trying to get.

Keep the cats off the tree and all that kind of stuff.

But I think those things are grounding, you know, and the smell that does connect me to my childhood Christmases, which weren't super happy themselves, but there was a.

There's a.

There's a tenderness for that, you know, that.

That little girl that connected to the sort of excitement and the.

The smell of the tree when I was little as something that sort of disrupted some of the other stuff that was going on at home.

So that, in a way, that's a lovely connection to that younger version of me who now gets to kind of play with all of this and create my own thing.

And.

Yeah, and as I said before, I guess it's around.

It's around food and the stuff that, you know, that my kids like every year and.

And going to.

Yeah, Christmas Day is always with my.

My best friend and her family and my kids come along and we just do ridiculous things and there's like, stupid bingo presents and that music and, you know, always too much food and just lots of raucousness and silliness and.

But that also is relatively recent.

Like, I'd say maybe even.

Well, probably 10 years, actually.

But I don't know, like, that there was a time where that was recreated into a new tradition because I was letting go of other traditions.

But I think in terms of just the faith element, one of the things that I still do now, I think, is taking some time to reflect.

So even if it's reflecting on my year or reflecting on some gratitude, you know, which.

Which always kind of gets me a little bit.

It feels a bit cheesy, but, like, it is a powerful thing.

You know, it really is.

Like, I don't need an actual gratitude journal, but I can be grateful and.

And think about the areas where I'm actually really proud of myself for things that I've done throughout the year or ways that I've grown or things that were hard that I came through, or things I'm just super grateful for people in my life.

And that's actually really lovely grounding exercise.

Yeah.

So Whereas before that, that gratitude might have been around, you know, all of the language that I don't need to kind of go into it and trigger everybody in you, but, you know, the way that we would have framed Christmas before.

It's still a lovely exercise to stop and kind of do that in a different way.

Yeah.

And.

And even actually, I remember when I was kind of going from.

I spent many years going from Christian to progressive Christian, you know, there was many years in that space, and some of the beautiful contemplative practices around the imagery, the metaphor of the Christ child, you know, and the.

In that carol, you know, the thrill of hope, the weary world rejoices.

You know, like, there's.

There's so much weariness and being able to.

To spark some hope as a.

You know, something that happens in the rhythm of a year in darkness.

You know, like, bringing some of that imagery was quite beautiful.

So I think engage with it wherever you're at, you know, wherever you can.

But I think it's a lovely.

It's a lovely opportunity to pause and reflect in whatever way is meaningful for you.

Yeah, I think for me, it's.

It's a little bit of redefining, but it's also reclaiming as well.

And I think, you know, if this is your first podcast episode of mine that you've listened to, you won't know this, but in a lot of my other episodes, I like to ask people what brings them joy and peace, because they're words that I think we sometimes think that the church owns or Christianity.

No, but actually, they don't.

Spoiler.

Joy and peace is found everywhere and in a lot of places.

And so I think it's been around, sort of, like, reclaiming some of that language that I would have used as very, you know, Christian church language around joy and peace.

Peace, but actually finding what.

A little bit of, like, a reflection, as well as to, like, what has brought me joy and peace this year?

Like, what?

Not just, like, what lessons have I learned, but what have I loved this year?

And.

And so.

But it's also about sort of like, redefining what Christmas means for me.

And often, you know, it would have, you know, meant the obvious, but.

But now it's very much about simplicity and slowing down.

And so I reflect that now, even in the way that I decorate our house.

If, you know, last year, I didn't even decorate at all.

I was like, no, I want to.

And that's okay.

This, like, this year, like, there is plans to decorate, but, you know, it's Christmas.

Decorating before was chaotic, and there was something everywhere, and there was color everywhere.

And as much as, like, I, you know, like, Jane loves color, I love monochromatic.

But, you know, like, previously, like, there was the.

Christmas is colorful, and Christmas has got to be colorful and.

And.

But actually, it doesn't.

Christmas can be whatever the heck you want.

And so, like, neutral colors and, you know, not having the obligatory nativity scene out because you feel like you have to.

And actually choosing to not do that can be a way to redefine what Christmas is for you.

And.

Yeah, and just like, you know, having the ability to slow down and.

And not have a list as long as your arm of plans and events and.

And things that you need to go to because you've, you know, you've got to go to all of the carols and you've got to go to, you know, all of the things and all of the events and all of the Christmas parties and.

And so, yeah, I think for me, it's just been about redefining what.

What I want Christmas to look like.

And.

And also, it's okay if you don't know what that is yet also.

And what you want Christmas to look like this year might not be next year.

Right.

And so that's also okay.

And like you sort of said at the beginning, you know, it will feel a little bit like an evolution of, you know, it will change over time.

But, yeah, I think also, you know, like I said, I've got.

My house is, like, full of Grinch stuff this year.

For any of my clients who come in person, they will.

I'll do some, like, photos and stuff as well for online.

But, like, I've embraced the playfulness of.

Of the Grinch because.

Yeah, because, like, it doesn't have to be heavy.

Like, Christmas was always, like.

Even though, like, it was a time of joy and gratitude and.

And thankfulness, it was.

It still had a heaviness and an expectation and a weight to it.

Yeah.

So I think it's just, you know, you know, if you have kids, look at your kids in the way that they see the wonder of Christmas and the color and the, you know, all of that and.

And redefine.

What do I want?

Even.

You might just even go, what do I want Christmas to look like this year?

Like, it doesn't.

Not everything has to have a grand, huge purpose.

We don't always need to be thinking, like, you know, five or 10 years down the track, but it might just be, what do we want for Christmas this year?

And.

And make that the focus, and then you can tackle Christmas next year.

Next year, Right?

Yeah, that's it.

And I think also, just as we wrap up, I guess, like, I just.

In thinking through all of this, and in kind of reflecting on all of this, you know, knowing we were going to have this conversation today.

I'm okay now.

Yeah.

You know, I had a lot of years where there was deep, deep grief for me around this and where I was being treated every which way, and it was.

There was tears, there was reactivity, there was exhaustion, there was sadness, there was, where do I belong?

Where do I fit?

Who are my people?

What am I doing over this time?

There's a lot of that stuff.

Yeah.

Where is my place in the world?

You know, like, just feeling dislocated, all that kind of thing, that can feel really overwhelming and scary.

Yeah.

But I'm okay now, you know, And I think that it's.

The more that we allow ourselves space to.

To feel what we feel, to bring kindness and compassion to that experience, to connect as much as we can with other people or people who love us.

You know, like, people can just connect with people who are.

For us.

It.

Over time, you know, we can heal.

And I think that there's.

There's things that will always, you know, be difficult in terms of memories or things, obviously, we can't undo, particularly events or having lost people or whatever it is.

But I think, like, you can get to a point where you can approach a season like Christmas, with all of its complexity, and just go, I'm okay.

Yeah.

Like, it's.

It might be trickier times, but I know how to just drop into myself and find the resources that I need.

Because everything.

Everything we need is within us.

Yeah.

You know, to be okay.

So it's possible.

Absolutely.

And I mean, just sort of like a full circle back to.

I think, what we sort of said at the beginning, which is, you know, avoiding the triggers or not having the triggers is not the goal.

The goal is just being able to navigate what comes up for you when it comes up, and being able to have the awareness to reflect and think about, you know, what might be difficult, what might happen, what I might be feeling, and.

And allow yourself to be able to put some stuff in place to look after you during that time.

You know, a healed nervous system is not one that is never triggered.

It's one that can navigate the triggers as they rise and your capacity expands.

As you do that.

Absolutely.

So that the.

The intensity or the impact of it isn't as great over time.

So.

Yeah, absolutely.

But, yeah, I mean, like, you know, this episode was how to be okay over Christmas, which is, you know, the reality of the reason why we talk about that is because you can be okay over Christmas.

And, and so, you know, wherever you are at, whether you are where Jane is and is okay at Christmas or you're at the very beginning and you're not okay at Christmas, there is the capacity and the ability to be okay over Christmas.

And that's really what we wanted people to, to be able to.

I mean, usually I end with like a word of encouragement or a message of encouragement at these end of these episodes.

And I'm now sort of going, I didn't really come up with anything, so I'm gonna like, wing it off the top of my head, which is like, what's your favorite recipe for people to do?

Like, what's your, like, what's your food recommendation, Jane, for people to, to have over Christmas?

Oh, I have so many.

Yeah.

I've literally just put you on the spot.

Yeah.

So many.

But you know what's a really, really simple one that anybody could do is get a, get a loaf tin like yours.

If you were going to make banana bread or something, put like baking paper or foil or something in there.

Actually, no, cling wrap is the easiest.

Melt some chocolate, pop some cranberries, pistachios, ginger in there and then melt the chocolate over tops to get in the freezer, chop it up.

You've got like Christmas bark.

Easy.

Maybe some nuts.

Yeah.

Like other nuts if you're feeling fancy.

Or some coconut.

Anything you like.

Really?

Yeah.

Freeze dried raspberries, you know, here, look, here's a plate of Christmas bark.

Yes.

I love that.

And I mean, to be fair, anything with chocolate is good.

Chocolate makes everything better.

I think I am probably going to go with something a little bit more traditional in the sense that, like, we have it every Christmas and I can't imagine a Christmas without it.

Which is just like the good old fashioned lemon meringue pie, which, like, I don't know if international listeners will even really know what that is, but like, because I've only ever heard Australians talk about it, but it's like, paddle over.

Oh, yes.

Yeah, it's always good.

But I think anything like with fresh fruit and that might be like an Australian thing because we're obviously in summer.

Fruit.

Yeah.

My American and UK listeners are not going to be vibing with that.

But here in Australia and New Zealand, anything with fresh fruit is always going to be good.

But yeah.

Well, on that yummy note, because, like, what better way to end an episode than with food?

Thank you for joining me yet again.

Pleasure.

It's always, it's always a good conversation.

I never quite know where the conversation is going to go.

And that's kind of the best kind, which is great.

And on.

And with that, I hope everybody has, like a restful and a slow Christmas.

Yeah.

Be kind to yourself.

Yes.

Yeah.

Compassionate self.

Compassionate Christmas.

That's.

Let's make that a hashtag.

Yes.

Oh, thanks, Jane.

Pleasure.

Hey, everyone.

And wow, what a year it's been.

I just wanted to take a moment to say a huge, heartfelt thank you to all of you, our listeners.

Whether you've been tuning in every week, sharing the episodes with friends, or just dipping in and out when a topic caught your eye, your support means the world to me.

And to our incredible guests, thank you for your courage, your vulnerability, and for sharing your stories with such authenticity.

You helped make this space what it is, a place of connection, reflection, and hopefully healing.

As we wrap up the year, we're going to take a little break over the summer.

It's time to recharge, soak up some sunshine or shade, if that's more of your vibe, and prepare for another exciting year ahead.

But don't worry, we'll be back with our regular weekly episodes starting from the 2nd of January.

Mark your your calendars because we've got some amazing conversations lined up for 2,025.

Until then, have a restful and gentle holiday season and we'll see you in the new year.