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Taking the Pain out of GTM Systems Enablement - Dan Giovacchini
Episode 43 • 30th July 2024 • RevOps FM • Justin Norris
00:00:00 00:48:13

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Enabling revenue teams to use the systems we build and maintain is a huge part of our job as revenue operators. Unfortunately for us, it often doesn’t work very well.

We create documents that no one reads.

They sit in knowledge bases that no one visits.

We're repeatedly interrupted by Slack messages from confused users.

We're forced to send Chatter reminders asking people to PLEASE follow the process for the 500th time. 

Today’s guest thinks that there’s a better way to do software enablement, and he founded a company called Tango to deliver on that promise.

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About Today's Guest

Daniel Giovacchini is COO and Co-Founder at Tango, a tool for creating how-to documentation and software walkthroughs that drive digital process adoption.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/daniel-giovacchini/

Key Topics

  • [00:00] - Introduction
  • [01:52] - AI and changes in the tech market
  • [06:33] - Two approaches to enablement
  • [10:43] - Building a minimum-lovable product
  • [20:44] - Bottom-up monetization
  • [29:38] - Learning in the flow of work
  • [36:37] - The knowledge management stack
  • [40:09] - Role as COO

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Transcripts

Justin Norris:

You know, the classic way of describing rev ops

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:

is people process and platforms.

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:

And while that may not be a

perfect formulation, it's a

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:

pretty accurate description.

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Of what we do, what they don't tell you

in RevOp school is that the people pillar

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:

is by far the hardest one to manage

building and systems, creating processes,

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you know, those are challenging, but

they're ultimately rewarding things to do.

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You get a big payoff at the end

when there's a finished product

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and you have a lot of control.

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On the other hand, getting other

people to actually do something is

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a whole other story, and it can be.

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Maddening to work with revenue teams that

seem determined to do anything but follow

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the process that you've designed I'm, not

suggesting anyone is out to get us, but

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it does point to the fact that enablement

Is a huge part of our job and rev ops.

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And it often doesn't work very well.

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We create documents that no one reads.

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They sit in knowledge

bases that no one visits.

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We spend our time responding to

Slack messages from confused users

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or sending chatter reminders, asking

people to just please follow the

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process for like the 500th time.

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And I may be exaggerating a bit

to make a point, but not by much.

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So today's guest thinks that there is

a better way to do software enablement.

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And he helped found a company

to deliver on that promise.

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It's called Tango.

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And our guest is the

company's COO, Dan Jovachini.

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Dan, so glad to have you here.

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Daniel Giovacchini: Great to be here,

Justin, and, really well articulated

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opening on, a lot of the challenges I

think that, you know, folks face out

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there with, with change in management,

and that's exactly what we spend

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most of our days thinking about.

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Justin Norris: I spend a lot of my day

dealing with those exact challenges.

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So they hit close to home.

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and I'm wondering, Dan, as I was looking

through your background, I saw you

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spent about seven years in the VC world.

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So before we pivot into Tango and

enablement and all that, I want to

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be opportunistic and just get your

perspective, putting your VC hat on

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again for a minute, what is going on?

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You know, we've experienced

a fairly strange.

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reset in the market over the past few

years, it's impacting a lot of SAS

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companies, things have really changed.

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The old playbooks don't

work the same anymore.

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What are you thinking about

as, as kind of a founder?

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What should other founders be focused

on to survive and thrive in this

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environment and that kind of thing?

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Daniel Giovacchini: Yeah,

it's a great question.

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I mean, you for so long, it seemed

like there was finally a sense of

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normal and bull market and, you

know, it was just bigger fundraising

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rounds happening year after year.

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And, and then suddenly we,

we hit this new bear market.

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and some ways.

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Tightening and economic slowdown.

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it's part of what precipitated that,

but it was also, we were probably just

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overheating on, a number of areas of,

of software spend in particular, and,

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uh, markets that kind of founders

and VCs both looked at and said, Oh,

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we've seen this happen somewhere else.

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And why can't it happen here?

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Like the Uber for, for X playbook

or something for every market.

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And, kind of where that got

us, I think is starting to.

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Really get back to me.

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Think about the customer,

what are their organizational

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level challenges and problems?

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And, you know, what are their operating

hurdles that, that they need to get

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passed and no matter if you're a founder,

your company, you know, working on

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a, an end user focused tool and the

marketing stack, or if you're something

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that helps, you know, org wide for HR.

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You really all have to tie back to

some organizational level initiative.

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And if you can't map to a

customer OKR, you should stop

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and think about how you can.

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and so, you know, I think that, slow down

in funding and, difficult fundraising

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environment kind of 2021, uh, 2023 started

to reinforce probably some healthier

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innovation behaviors and healthier,

really like product marketing and sales

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pitches from, from founders and companies.

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And, then I has obviously just

become the theme of the moment and.

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It's, there's never been a better time

to be insanely curious about what's

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possible, if you're an operator within a

company and, and all these new tools and

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technology that's available, or if you're,

you're a vendor yourself or a founder or

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VC and think about your product and, and

your longterm, value creation path, right?

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at the same time, that's a lot of noise.

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And, and so, you know, how

do you cut through the noise?

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Make sure that you're, you're building

a product or a business or a service

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that matters, for a long time.

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that's getting back to that probably, you

know, healthier behavior of saying, Hey,

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how do we map to real organizational level

challenges and problems for our customers?

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Justin Norris: it 10 years, you

know, it was almost like a crazy,

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drug trip or something like that.

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And now things have

kind of come back down.

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to reality in the sense that, customer

acquisition costs that are completely

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untethered from business fundamentals,

we're sort of normalized software

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purchasing behavior that, doesn't

really make sense economically.

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It's kind of normalized.

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So I definitely see what you're

saying as a, as someone who's often

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a software buyer and is having to

make business cases for software.

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The rules of that game have

definitely changed for me.

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And I think for a lot of my peers,

how have you found the discussion

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around your category of, kind of like

enablement and, digital adoption, have

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the dynamics there changed at all?

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Daniel Giovacchini: You know, they

really have changed with AI, especially

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in the last year or two here.

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And, chat GPT came out and a lot of

founders and a lot of VCs looked at

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the underlying models, chat GPT used

and said, okay, this is amazing.

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What else is possible?

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And, you know, I'd say we were still

in the middle of a big discovery phase

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here for where's the application layer

value going to accrue and, where are

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we going to start to see, the massive

productivity improvements that, people

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are sensing that are possible, but,

you know, we're still waiting to

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come to fruition in a lot of cases.

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And, a couple of early examples of, areas

that you've seen the impact right away.

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certainly data analytics tools,

certainly customer service

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conversations, and you can point to

vendors and those categories that.

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I've started to do just show ROI cases

that have kind of never been seen before.

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but as you think about enablement

and process and, you know, a lot

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of the world that both you and I

spend a lot of time in, what you're

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starting to see is potentially

two paths to take an enablement.

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And one is, somewhat, Search focused query

focused, and you can think chat, GBT.

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You can think chat UX.

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You can think, glean as a, company that's,

been more, more and more talked about

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on the, the venture scene, but okay,

we can be really information centric

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and, center our enablement initiatives

around, unstructured text knowledge.

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Right.

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And we're just going to bet that.

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Operators are going to know the right

questions to ask, and they're going

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to be able to go retrieve answers.

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And we were able to suddenly index

all that information in a much more

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powerful way, and AI is going to help

serve results, you know, and that's

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going to improve how people work.

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There's another path that's probably

more, We're going down, right?

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Which is just in the

flow of work enablement.

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And so that's almost betting that,

Hey, instead of being information

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centric, let's be process centric.

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Let's think about.

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Where a user operator is spending

time, what tools they're in, what

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information might they need, when

might they need it, and let's try and

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serve it to them proactively or make

it available at their fingertips in

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such a way that We're not actually

requiring them to go and, understand

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the right query to be asking to unblock

themselves or to do their job better,

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to find answers to serve a customer,

you know, kind of whatever it might be.

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So I think that's kind of where.

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there's two paths in front of

us in the enablement space.

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And you're seeing companies take

kind of two different approaches

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if you want to be simplistic.

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And, you know, there's going to be

a place for both, but it's sort of

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within, if you're an operator, you

kind of start to think about, you

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know, which, which one makes most sense

For your situation for your company.

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Justin Norris: You know, when we

think about the sorts of rev ops

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use cases, we often encounter CRM

enablement or some other sort of tool

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enablement, or, you have a revenue or

marketing sales CS user needs to do

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a certain thing in a certain place.

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The, in the flow of work model just seems

commonsensically the way to go, because

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nobody cares to go, like you said, ask

a question or know the right question.

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There's so much more room for error.

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There's so much more user discretion.

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Why not just show them what to

do in the moment that they need

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To know that information most

and in the place where they are.

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And we'll get a bit deeper into tango

itself, but I'm just curious, like

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what's the, at the market level,

what's the argument against doing that?

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Cause it just seems that is the

way that you should do it to me.

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Daniel Giovacchini: Yeah.

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I mean, different

information types, right?

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So there's a lot of the unstructured

conversation that happens about product,

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customer market, competitor, internal

strategy, decisioning, and a lot of

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that just fundamentally lives within.

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A slack, a teams, a knowledge base, email.

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and so, you know, there is golden

knowledge that lives there.

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And you know, how do you

potentially surface that in ways?

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And if we think, Hey, you're a

seller and you're talking to a

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new account for the first time.

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and there's been some new, product

developments that perhaps you should

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be aware of for that account, or

there's been some new competitive

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Intel that's been discussed somewhere.

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If you actually want to surface

that, that information, you know, for

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that seller, You're going to want to

potentially search against a lot of

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these other, knowledge repositories.

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And, you know, it's not to say you

can't serve that up, in the moment.

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But, right now we're in the flow of work

enablement where that technology is.

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And that that thinking is it hasn't

quite incorporated all That general

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market company, customer information.

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So that's probably just still

a bridge that kind of needs to

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be crossed technologically to

start to make that all available.

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But I totally think, the end vision, if

we put our heads together, it should be

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less proactively serve this up when people

need it and not require them to search for

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Justin Norris: Got it.

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Cool.

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Well, we'll dig a bit more into that,

but maybe first we'll just turn back the

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page a little bit and just talk about

founding a company, starting with this

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idea and how you go from there to MVP.

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Daniel Giovacchini: There's a lot

of thoughts and literature out

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there on founding a company and, the

best way to go about early product

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development, problem discovery.

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You know, there's a couple things that

I think have stood true as far as,

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the test of time And just fundamental

truths about good innovation practice.

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And I think there's a couple of

things that are pretty outdated.

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So, for starters, first trap to fall into

is feeling like you have a great idea

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and you have a solution that the market

just needs and you Go just build it.

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it's how a lot of founders and it's how

a lot of stories get told about companies

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is you have this sudden golden insight

about something that, you or others have

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experienced and you just go build it.

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It's so often not the case.

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And you go look at the actual

evolution stories of, companies

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in their earliest days.

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And.

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You can start with an idea, but

it's going to iterate so much.

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It's going to change based on the

first time you go and actually ask

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about, what are those organizational

level OKRs that you have?

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What are actual problems that are

top of mind, for this ICP that you

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thought you understood what, other

competitive products are out there

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that maybe you weren't aware of.

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And so, the quick lesson there is just.

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You should really think about

entering a problem space and not

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entering into building a solution.

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And the more you can be curious about

your problem space early on and be

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open and flexible to iterating and

serving true North on your compass as

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how do we provide the most value for

customers that, you know, they uniquely

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do not have somewhere else, that's,

what's going to really guide you down

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the I think the most successful path.

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the other one is, is

related to building too.

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And this could apply for products or

services, but lean startup method came

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out and this minimum viable product

concept came out, pretty early on

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and, sort of entrepreneurial lore.

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And.

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What still stands true about it is

you should absolutely be going to

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get feedback as fast as possible.

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What has changed is you

should not be launching half

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baked versions of a solution.

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So, you know, as you get through

that problem space discovery, and

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as you figure out, something that

you have a strong hypothesis is, is

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going to be a game changer for, for

your customer, you really need to

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take advantage of your launch moment.

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And this is due to.

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the cost of starting a company of

creating a product, all of that

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has, being driven down to zero.

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And, you know, even with AI, right,

people are going to create products and

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software and services, you know, way

faster than they ever had historically.

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And if you're a, an individual

contributor, if you're a buyer,

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user champion, no matter what you

are at a company, there's just.

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Hundreds and thousands of products

that you can be going to try every day.

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And, the excitement of something new

it's very much become noise and less

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become a delightful moment in your day.

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So if you're going to come out and launch

a new product or service to the world,

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really try and get your launch right.

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so we read this article early

on from first round review.

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They put out amazing content, you

know, especially For builders of

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companies in the early stages.

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And the title of the article

is don't serve burnt pizza.

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And it hit us just at

the right moment in time.

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And we sort of made it, one of our,

manifestos, but, think about creating

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a minimum lovable product, not just a

minimum viable product, and, that means

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first impressions really do matter.

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take the extra six months to really

get your product marketing, right.

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Put that extra design touch if you

are a product company to really think

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through that, that service offering.

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so when you launch, you can take

advantage of that and that early

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momentum is what you're going to need

to propel you in those early days to

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then be on the path to, whatever it is,

securing more funding or reaching more

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customers or hiring more of your team.

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Justin Norris: You know, that narrative

around, iteration has been a constant,

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I think with every founder that I've

spoken to that has come on the show.

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I think Eloqua started as a chat product.

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Marketo started as some

sort of AdWords interface.

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Like the ideas changed really drastically.

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I'm curious, how did you know when

you had iterated to the place where

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you had something that was a minimum

lovable product, as you put it?

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Daniel Giovacchini: Yeah, awesome.

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So, we actually set out to solve this.

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Be curious in this problem space

of learning on the job and solve

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this, kind of, problem we felt was

out there of just, it takes too

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long to get good at what you do.

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And this is really from a, tactical

perspective of how do I be successful

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in my new role at a company?

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And, we did more discovery and we, we

kind of traced this, path to, well,

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learning the tools that you use is

actually this like Kind of fundamental

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barrier to contributing to job performance

and, getting past that ramp or nesting

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period into, you know, okay, I'm

actually taking inbound volume for the

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first time, or I'm, you know, answering

chat conversations, you know, that

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are real, real live, live customers.

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but we.

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You know, for us, it was, okay, we

think there's an interesting hypothesis

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or idea around the best people on

your team have figured out something

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unique to your company about how

to be successful and how they work.

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And, we borrowed this a little

bit from gong and chorus in the.

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The sales tech stack where they figured

out that, you know, Hey, there's a lot

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of golden insight for teams and companies

in the conversations of your top sellers,

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and they're doing things on those sales

calls that everybody could learn from.

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And so, we went around and got

curious about, Hey, learning

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on the job is really hard.

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Is this a problem, for you as

a VP, is this a problem for you

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as a new hire, we got a lot of

certainty and learned that, Hey, this

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would be a problem worth solving.

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And then we had this hypothesis of like,

if you could actually understand what

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makes Susie from Scottsdale so good at

what she does, and then make that the

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basis for, training and enablement,

would that potentially be interesting?

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And, we.

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Kept pulling on that thread.

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And, so we did get into product

development and what we realized is

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that, you know, whoa, this, wasn't just

something for customer support or for, you

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know, BPOs and call centers where learning

the actual, click process or click

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stream of how do I navigate my tools.

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Was valuable and actually

spread to way more functions.

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And it was way more of a horizontal.

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Problem space.

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Then, then we kind of initially

realized, and, the moment it clicked

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for us that we were close to something

that was minimum lovable was we

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went and did these controlled pilots

with five or six different teams

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at, five or six different companies,

different functions, and, it was free.

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we tried to charge initially,

but that was even difficult.

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And so we just made it free.

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And it was the moment where, instead

of us just like begging people to

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use it, they started to use it on

their own and they started to ask

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about, Hey, would this be possible?

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Would there be more features here?

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Hey, could I get somebody else on?

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And so, you know, we use this

like kind of controlled beta

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environment to sort of assess some

of that minimum lovable component.

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and, we said, okay, we think

we have something here.

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Now let's take the three to six months

extra to go get this ready for a launch.

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And, you know, we're going to make a

bet that we can really land a first

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impression based on these early

learnings with a broader audience.

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And we were fortunate that, that we did.

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Justin Norris: When you mentioned

those horizontal use cases, I'm

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curious, what are some good examples?

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Cause was mentioning before we hit

record, I've used Tango a few times in my

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company but it's been mostly focused on,

software navigation, click stream stuff.

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Like you said, where

would you go from there?

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Daniel Giovacchini: Yeah.

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So, You kind of look at it and we

realized that like, Hey, the target

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market for trying to teach other people

how to use software, it's really anybody

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who's tried to take a manual screenshot,

paste it into Google doc and write out

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some steps and send that to somebody

to tell them how to do something right.

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Or in a Slack thread or in a,

you know, email conversation.

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And so.

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we really thought it was like

going to be customer support and,

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potentially call centers again.

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But, it was every function, from

engineering to, consultants and

333

:

consulting firms to HR professionals.

334

:

You're trying to learn how to use

the performance management software.

335

:

And I guess, we just didn't

totally realize that this friction

336

:

really does exist as, as much as.

337

:

software has, improved, the

ability to go get tasks done.

338

:

we take it for granted and a lot

of cases, and, especially from an

339

:

ops and enablement perspective,

you know, people are very familiar

340

:

with tools, very, very tech savvy.

341

:

Um, you know, especially if you're in

a venture backed company, but you think

342

:

about other people who choosing technology

is not the central component of their job.

343

:

and it's frustrating and people don't

want to, spend the time, going and

344

:

learning and the help docs, how to use

the software, navigate it and try and.

345

:

trial and error on their own.

346

:

so, that's kind of what I was referencing

347

:

when, you know, horizontal, it's

just this, peer to peer teaching

348

:

of, of how to use software

349

:

Justin Norris: Across more

functions, more teams, sort of

350

:

anywhere in the organization.

351

:

Daniel Giovacchini: Exactly.

352

:

Justin Norris: so you have that magic

moment where you're like, oh, this is

353

:

something that people want to use And

I can imagine that's a very interesting

354

:

feeling as a founder who's gone through

this Sort of hero's journey of building

355

:

a product and iterating on it Then you

start to think about go to market and

356

:

how to commercialize it at a at a bigger

scale What was the dialogue there?

357

:

Daniel Giovacchini: you basically

have two to three choices when you're

358

:

launching a product and thinking about

go to market motion today's day and age.

359

:

Right.

360

:

And.

361

:

you have a bottoms up version, where you

say, Hey, you think anybody can use this?

362

:

You think that your products

can somewhat teach itself.

363

:

And then you have a top down version

where, You're saying, Hey, the value

364

:

of this software, the benefits of

this, service need to be explained.

365

:

They can't be taught or discovered.

366

:

and then maybe you have something in

the middle where, there's interactive

367

:

demo experiences started to become,

more popular, and you can use

368

:

that to divert people into sales

conversations or a self serve journey.

369

:

So, maybe that's a new one.

370

:

That's, kind of emerging

more, but, you know, for us.

371

:

We looked at it and, again, we

had initially thought, okay,

372

:

this is very targeted, at a

couple of specific functions.

373

:

but when we realized that, you know,

Hey, this is more horizontal than we

374

:

thought really the litmus test for should

you go bottoms up or should you go.

375

:

Horizontal PLG is how quickly

can you provide time to value

376

:

and get users to an aha moment?

377

:

that's basically referring to Can they

get something of value from using your

378

:

product in a single player fashion?

379

:

in more or less 60 seconds or or under

right around there and if you can you're

380

:

gonna see a lot of benefits of bottoms

up and plg You People are going to go in,

381

:

understand your product, get something

from it, be so wowed that they're

382

:

going to want to tell people about it.

383

:

they're going to want to potentially

come back to it and think more about how

384

:

they could use it in a bigger fashion.

385

:

make it part of their routine.

386

:

If you can't, then you're very likely just

to get a bunch of tire kickers early on.

387

:

Maybe they're interested in

checking it out, but you're

388

:

not going to get people hooked.

389

:

and that could be for a couple reasons.

390

:

It could be.

391

:

Do you have a fundamentally

multiplayer experience?

392

:

Do you need multiple people involved?

393

:

You know, a team to actually

get value from your products.

394

:

If you do, it's going to be very hard to

convince that first person who finds you

395

:

to invite a team to try something out.

396

:

it's too much to ask without having

ever proved anything to them or

397

:

given value to them up front.

398

:

or, if it's not multiplayer.

399

:

But the product experience actually

just fundamentally is more complex

400

:

or requires more configuration or set

up, then you're really going to need

401

:

to teach them why they need to do it.

402

:

And super unlikely you're gonna be

able to do it in a self serve fashion.

403

:

You're gonna want to talk to them

and have somebody really experienced

404

:

sell the benefits and get them

into a trial or a sales process.

405

:

Justin Norris: So you, I'm, I'm

making an educated guess, the

406

:

bottom up motion is where you land.

407

:

At least that's how I've

encountered your tool.

408

:

And I will say to your credit that

it is pretty easy, to go through it.

409

:

Maybe it's a good time to just, I'll

describe to you my experience as a user

410

:

of a tool like this, like what I did.

411

:

Tell me if I'm wrong, but, you

sign up, you go and you hit

412

:

record, you do a thing like in CRM.

413

:

Click, click, click, click, click.

414

:

And it just captures those steps for you.

415

:

Like screenshots, each one sort of

automatically describes what you're doing.

416

:

And then you can go through and beautify

the descriptions and tweak them.

417

:

But, that to me was the aha moment.

418

:

It's like, Oh, it just sort of

captured it all right there.

419

:

And this kind of, magical way and created

a, an experience for the user consuming

420

:

that, that I think is objectively just

much better a Google doc with screenshots

421

:

or even like a loom, which I also really

like, but a loom you have to like kind

422

:

of hunt and search and start and stop.

423

:

And this really does have it

broken out in a very nice way.

424

:

So is that the typical experience

that your users are going

425

:

through what I just described?

426

:

Daniel Giovacchini: that's

the typical experience.

427

:

a hundred percent of our users go through

that exact experience you just described.

428

:

And, what we intentionally designed

into that experience actually borrowed

429

:

on a lot of game design principles.

430

:

And we recently actually put out a little.

431

:

piece about this, but there are specific

mechanics built in to ensure that you as a

432

:

user are going to get something of value.

433

:

Within that, that 60 seconds and

we're not going to let you go

434

:

necessarily on side quests early on.

435

:

So we're not actually going to give

you power user features as you're going

436

:

through and capturing your process.

437

:

We're not going to let you edit it

while you're in that recording session.

438

:

We're not going to let you, turn on audio

video and actually make a video out of it.

439

:

It's very intently designed to get you to.

440

:

A near finished state or an actually

over 60 percent of cases, it's an already

441

:

finished state, really without ever.

442

:

Getting tempted to do anything other

than, do your process with tango

443

:

capturing it and then we're showing

you the process you're capturing and

444

:

we're sort of teaching you how the

product works as you go through that.

445

:

first capture experience.

446

:

So, it's very intentional.

447

:

We put every user basically

through that capture journey.

448

:

and they, at the end of it have

something of value and they've

449

:

learned how the product works.

450

:

and that's part of what fueled

our, bottoms up motion and why

451

:

a lot of people refer to it as

very intuitive and easy to use.

452

:

Justin Norris: And the challenge I

imagine, or I'm curious about is, so

453

:

if I take my company, for example, like

I said, we probably have one or two or

454

:

a small handful of tangos in our, or

whatever we have obviously underneath,

455

:

under the free plan of what you offer,

what's the moment of truth that is going

456

:

to get a user to go from that stage to

actually, we need to put up a credit card

457

:

to get the value that we're looking for.

458

:

Daniel Giovacchini: Yeah.

459

:

Great question.

460

:

So I mean, the first aha moment is,

is getting you excited as a free user.

461

:

It's, capturing your, first

workflow on your own software.

462

:

And, number one and sort of our.

463

:

Activation journey, there's, sort of two

separate paths we want you to go down.

464

:

You know, if you're a smaller company,

if you're a freelancer, you're an SMB,

465

:

we potentially want you to, swipe your

credit card and become a paid user.

466

:

we strive that say, Hey, if you're

a power user, you know, 10 percent

467

:

of the free users in that market, we

think should sort of, be paid users.

468

:

And, the ones where we want that to be

true are if you have needs around branding

469

:

or if you have needs around security.

470

:

And so we say, Hey, if you're using

this in a power user fashion, it's

471

:

likely that you're using Tango.

472

:

To build, your own

service or product, right.

473

:

Or to like offer tango to a

customer, or you are using it within.

474

:

Your team in a way that, you really do

need, more privacy or more branding.

475

:

And if you're just otherwise using

it, casually, or, it is more of a, a

476

:

one off thing for you, then we want

it to be free because we want you to

477

:

share more tank creates more tangos,

share them, and not feel inhibited.

478

:

So privacy and branding are the

two where we want you to pay as a

479

:

SMB or, freelancer user of Tango.

480

:

If you're within a larger company,

we want to convert you on what's

481

:

possible with your team and

within a larger organization.

482

:

Software training initiative.

483

:

So if you're creating documentation,

it's likely because there's some bigger

484

:

effort happening at your company.

485

:

You're either bringing on new hires,

you're rolling out new software, you're

486

:

doing a process improvement project.

487

:

You're teaching reps, I mean, you know,

you're in rev ops, you're teaching reps

488

:

about how to use, some new functionality,

some new field perhaps within the CRM.

489

:

so we want to then convince you

that, Hey, there's a really powerful.

490

:

Team based experience here where,

this is our, our newest offering.

491

:

Actually, if you actually get your whole

team on board, we're going to let you

492

:

pin these updates and these processes

right on top of the software that people

493

:

are using, and it's no longer gonna.

494

:

Be a link that you send them, in Slack

or, living in an LMS or a knowledge base.

495

:

So, you talked about, you

guys use it as a free user.

496

:

that's great.

497

:

We want you to get excited

about, what Tango can do.

498

:

To potentially help here

and there with, the process.

499

:

at some point we would want you to

be convinced that, Oh, Hey, we do

500

:

have these larger software training

initiatives and there's suddenly a

501

:

powerful team based experience where

we should talk to the Tango sales

502

:

team about how we could set that up on

top of our CRM or on top of our, core

503

:

business software And benefit even more.

504

:

Justin Norris: So let's pivot in a bit

deeper into that product experience

505

:

because that what you just described

that overlay Wasn't something I'd seen

506

:

before I saw it on your website just

well prepping for this interview and

507

:

I thought oh, that's really cool it's

kind of like those like onboarding

508

:

wizards that you get sometimes when you

first sign up for a product But those

509

:

are often very annoying because they

constrict you a little bit and they you

510

:

must feel like you're not Like they're

mediating between you and the product.

511

:

Whereas this, at least in the example

that I watched, it was quite fluid.

512

:

Like it's actually, just guiding you

along through what you need to do.

513

:

So maybe just talk about that and,

what you've seen so far, perhaps

514

:

in the market or what your vision

is for how people would implement.

515

:

Do

516

:

Daniel Giovacchini: Yeah, totally.

517

:

So we're big believers that for

learning process or learning

518

:

software, you should learn.

519

:

While you're using it, you should learn,

actually in, this case, the CRM, right?

520

:

So the alternative, the status quo,

you know, maybe what a lot of folks do

521

:

today, which totally understandable,

but what it is, is you're sending out

522

:

a Slack update, you're jumping on top

of a, team call and screen sharing a

523

:

new process, or you're sending out a

loom video to talk through something.

524

:

And people are going to hear it.

525

:

perhaps a couple of people who are

particularly good with technology

526

:

or savvy, we'll pick it up and

there's going to be a lot of

527

:

people who kind of just ignore it.

528

:

They're going to forget, they're going to

listen with one ear and they're not going

529

:

to take the new tool or the new process

and incorporate it into their workflow.

530

:

what do we want instead?

531

:

Well, we basically want that the first

time you're going to go, you're going For

532

:

example, you're creating a new deal in

the CRM, a new opportunity, and, there's

533

:

a new field that you need to fill out.

534

:

We want you at that exact moment to, learn

and, be more or less instructed that,

535

:

Hey, this new field has been created.

536

:

here's exactly how to use it.

537

:

And, All you have to do is, and in our

case, hover over this, tool tip or, have

538

:

this, this process appear, you know, for

the first time you're on one of those

539

:

sub pages or page, we do a lot with

kind of URL detection in our product.

540

:

And that's when you're

actually going to see it.

541

:

And see, okay, well, I now know

that this is exactly the new process

542

:

update and you're far more likely to

incorporate that into your routine,

543

:

having learned it right in the moment

that you need it or should be doing it.

544

:

so that's the kind of fundamental.

545

:

argument for, people learning software

and process retention and compliance

546

:

and adherence is going to be so

much higher if it's right there when

547

:

they need it versus, done separately

and hope that somebody remembers.

548

:

Justin Norris: you have any data, like a

data point around, adoption is X percent

549

:

higher or like how much more quickly

someone could learn a process if they're

550

:

doing it this way versus reading an

article in a knowledge base or seeing

551

:

a synchronous training like three weeks

ago and then they go to do it and it's

552

:

already been forgotten at that point.

553

:

Daniel Giovacchini: Yep.

554

:

So kind of the easiest thing to measure.

555

:

Has been with kind of net new software

rollouts and try and compare, either to

556

:

a similar rollout at the company that

did not use Tango or perhaps the same

557

:

software rollout at a different company.

558

:

And, I'll mention a case study that,

that we just did to help illustrate,

559

:

but it was a large workday rollout.

560

:

So this is more HR software, less

CRM, but, it's a:

561

:

and had to roll out workday and,

teach everybody at the company.

562

:

Okay, here's how you use workday

to find your pay stubs, submit for

563

:

PTO, uh, enroll in dental insurance,

et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

564

:

And what they found, with Tango by putting

the instructions kind of exactly on the

565

:

screen where people needed them, that they

saw a 90 percent reduction in internal I.

566

:

T.

567

:

Support ticket requests and

basically going back to those owners

568

:

of the software and asking for

help or asking for clarification.

569

:

so that's one way to measure it is

sort of saying, hey, post rollout.

570

:

in this case, it's helpful that it

was HR software because it's stuff

571

:

people had to do for employment.

572

:

you know, in a CRM case, the danger

is that you actually don't get asked

573

:

those questions for support, right?

574

:

You don't actually get

people circling back.

575

:

You just get people who ignore you

and, you find out, you know, later

576

:

on that they weren't doing it.

577

:

but we, saw it sort of 90%.

578

:

Reduction in support

tickets with this customer.

579

:

And, that basically goes to, prove that,

when the information is, right there, you

580

:

are that much more likely to, successfully

incorporate that new information and,

581

:

completing your, task or your process.

582

:

Justin Norris: One of the things that

I thought was novel was it seemed

583

:

that there is some, kind of what,

at least one of your AI features.

584

:

And that there was some intelligence

to allow for flexibility in the

585

:

process that the user would carry out.

586

:

Cause sometimes these things are

rigid where it's like, you have to

587

:

click on this and you have to click on

this and it's like, click on a lead.

588

:

Well, it could be many leads.

589

:

It could be many different things.

590

:

how did you solve for that problem

of, having a structure, but creating

591

:

flexibility at the same time,

592

:

Daniel Giovacchini: Definitely.

593

:

So, there's certainly complexity

and how you configure process

594

:

instruction based on, you take a

CRM, for instance, you have parent.

595

:

URL pages and you have, kind of children

sub pages and we'll take a company record.

596

:

And if you want process instruction to

only show up for one specific company

597

:

because they're very unique versus do

you want process instruction to show

598

:

up for every company and all of those

sub pages and all those sub URLs.

599

:

So that's one example where.

600

:

that's a power user feature that we help

people learn how to modify and create.

601

:

And it's actually very easy and

practice, but it is a complicated,

602

:

nuanced part of the technology and

part of the delivery of the products

603

:

when you configure it right, it can be.

604

:

much more powerful or you've also

realized there's many more edge cases.

605

:

So, this is why this experience,

we actually work much more in a

606

:

sales and success led fashion versus

product led because figuring out

607

:

something like that is difficult.

608

:

but yeah, you essentially want to say,

Hey, Ask yourself a few questions about

609

:

either a process or enablement tip.

610

:

Is this something I want everybody

to globally see on every instance

611

:

of, a page just like this?

612

:

or is it something we, only want them

to see uniquely on a specific page?

613

:

So that's one question to ask.

614

:

Another question to ask is, is this

something we want people to see every time

615

:

they come, or is this something we only

want them to see one time, and it really

616

:

is just like a, see it for the first time.

617

:

And we don't want to show it again.

618

:

so, those are usually the main kind

of, okay, if we're gonna do real

619

:

time enablement in the flow of work.

620

:

those are the two main questions along

with user groups and permissions.

621

:

So do we want just new hires to see this

or, you know, experienced team members,

622

:

or we want just the sales team to see

this versus just the success team.

623

:

those are the main questions to

ask and you're on your way to

624

:

providing like curated enablement.

625

:

So

626

:

Justin Norris: then in terms of.

627

:

The place of a tool like Tango within a

bigger knowledge management ecosystem.

628

:

So like I have a knowledge base,

for instance, we use confluence, and

629

:

that's very important for some things.

630

:

And then we also like the company that

I work for in my day job, we sell an LMS

631

:

and mostly, targeting the L and D buyer.

632

:

but some, similar overlapping use cases.

633

:

And so that has another

repository of knowledge.

634

:

Do you aim to.

635

:

eat all those things eventually

subsume them in your broader vision

636

:

of where you'll be in like five or

10 years or play alongside them.

637

:

What will that look like?

638

:

Daniel Giovacchini: knowledge bases and

LMS is serve very important functions

639

:

that aren't necessarily going to go away.

640

:

Okay.

641

:

and that's really that general information

about, what is our industry, what is

642

:

our product, who are our competitors,

of this information that you would

643

:

need as context and background to be

successful at then, you know, using

644

:

your tools and completing processes.

645

:

So, that's very much, still

critical and important.

646

:

What we would argue is that.

647

:

You should not be teaching how

to use software, how, to complete

648

:

tasks, how to go about process from

within a knowledge base or an LMS.

649

:

And if you want to reference

it there, that's great.

650

:

So we very much believe in deep linking

process, instruction, deep linking.

651

:

tango workflows or folders, from within

knowledge bases or LMS is, and you

652

:

can then go learn in the tools, and

actually experience the process through

653

:

the tools instead of, within a scorn

file or something, embedded in LMS or

654

:

knowledge base, So that to us, makes a

lot of sense, to reinforce tool based

655

:

learning systems, learning in there,

but actually trying to teach through a

656

:

PowerPoint or, put a video inside the

knowledge base, you expect people to

657

:

watch and memorize that's actually what

we would expect to completely go away.

658

:

Justin Norris: And do you see yourself

again, thinking about your product

659

:

vision, could you ever be a complete

knowledge management solution, and

660

:

have like your knowledge base, or do

you always imagine yourself partnering

661

:

alongside other vendors like that

in the knowledge management stack?

662

:

Daniel Giovacchini: I think and

this is very much a, partnership

663

:

driven, vision, I believe.

664

:

So if we do say, Hey, there's

many types of knowledge,

665

:

there's many types of learning.

666

:

Some tools are going to be much more

specific and well suited for, this type.

667

:

And some are going to be

more suited for that type.

668

:

the question for.

669

:

real time enablement for what Tango is

trying to do and help, you know, it really

670

:

is a kind of like co pilot vision, right.

671

:

Of how people, while they work, while

they're doing, can we partner with other

672

:

tools to surface their information in

the flow of work when that's relevant?

673

:

And, bi directionally.

674

:

For LMSs, for example, you're always

going to have cohort based onboarding.

675

:

You're always going to have crops of

new hires starting, and they're going

676

:

to need, some hand holding in their

first number of weeks that's probably

677

:

always best delivered, through an LMS.

678

:

And, so there's their bi directional,

um, instruction then where stuff

679

:

that might live in software and tools

can also be, served through the LMS.

680

:

it's all about, I think, designing the

best upfront learning experience and

681

:

the best sort of knowledge management,

serving knowledge when people need it.

682

:

And that's likely going to be

through a combination of tools.

683

:

Justin Norris: Makes perfect sense.

684

:

I want to pivot to you for a second

and like your role in the org.

685

:

You're the COO, which, like all

operations, jobs, it can mean

686

:

many different things I find.

687

:

So I'm curious about you see your

role, your place within the org, the

688

:

sorts of responsibilities you have.

689

:

Daniel Giovacchini: if you actually

go back and look at, you know,

690

:

Fundamentally, what is operations?

691

:

It is helping your company

deliver and support your product

692

:

or service offering, right?

693

:

And be most efficient as

possible in doing that.

694

:

So operations to me is

really everything outside of.

695

:

Core product development or

like core service delivery.

696

:

And then if you think back office

operations about how does our company

697

:

be efficient to then ultimately

deliver this product or service.

698

:

And then you think about, and especially

the last, 10, 15 years, right?

699

:

Like rev ops is the fastest

growing job and certain:

700

:

reports, according to Forbes.

701

:

a lot of these other,

function specific operations.

702

:

Yeah.

703

:

groups are really about, okay, how do

we make, their efforts more efficient?

704

:

so as, we're fast growing, kind of

early stage company by all means.

705

:

but what does that mean?

706

:

It's, it's how do we.

707

:

Most efficiently operationalized around

bringing, our core products, to market.

708

:

And so that's, a little bit of

back office, in the early days is

709

:

overseeing some of that function,

but also very much sales marketing.

710

:

Support, success and, the

enablement of those really customer

711

:

facing people on those teams.

712

:

How do we set up structures and make

sure all these, groups and functions are

713

:

speaking the same language, drawing on

the same philosophy as they make their

714

:

decisions and as fluid away as possible.

715

:

And it's chaotic early on.

716

:

but certainly as you hit milestones,

you get more certainty and you

717

:

build more foundation in different

areas and you're able to get more

718

:

precise and more prescriptive.

719

:

Justin Norris: As a COO, there's

a pretty broad scope of activities

720

:

that fall under your purview.

721

:

And as a consequence of that, there

are like a million things that

722

:

you could be thinking about or

doing at any given point in time.

723

:

And I'm really interested in

the problem of prioritization

724

:

in a situation like that.

725

:

Because I think that's something that

many operators can relate to at any level.

726

:

So I'm curious, How do you making

those decisions day to day?

727

:

Like I need to move this company

forward relatively early stage.

728

:

As you said, it's chaotic.

729

:

What am I going to do today?

730

:

It's a hard question to answer sometimes.

731

:

Daniel Giovacchini: It's the

ultimate question to answer.

732

:

starts with working backwards from

where are we in our product market fit

733

:

journey when you're in early stages.

734

:

And if you're an early stage

company, whether your product or

735

:

service, you're, you're racing to.

736

:

best version of product market fit

that you can, optimally achieve within,

737

:

your timeframe and, working backwards

from that, that helps you prioritize.

738

:

So in certain weeks, it's, we're

not learning fast enough, right?

739

:

Or like we are not the feedback loop.

740

:

Between sales and marketing is not strong

enough to the point where we're putting

741

:

out effective messaging or positioning

because we're not understanding, you know,

742

:

what's actually happening on, sales calls.

743

:

And so that's like, okay, crap, we have

to use call recording technology better.

744

:

We have to set up a different

meeting structure and a meeting

745

:

cadence to achieve that.

746

:

But it all comes from like, okay.

747

:

You know, we're not learning fast enough

to help us get to product market fit.

748

:

or it could be like, Hey, we're

not having the right conversations.

749

:

And so, we really have to go look at what

we're doing from a marketing perspective.

750

:

so once you're kind of in the sort

of more post product market fit

751

:

phase, I think the North star then

is, you have your, six, 12 months.

752

:

Okay.

753

:

Ours or strategy.

754

:

That's kind of the timeframe, that

feel like is, more in vogue now for all

755

:

stage companies is three months is, too

little more than a year is, too much.

756

:

but you have your company level

priorities and, um, what's going

757

:

to help you hit those the fastest.

758

:

and so going and finding, being maniacal

about removing friction or blockers

759

:

or organizational, lethargy, right?

760

:

How do you go find that

stuff and, blow through it?

761

:

that's kind of the, next

prioritization function in my mind.

762

:

And the last thing I'll mention is

you do need a longterm mindset, right?

763

:

So one of our values actually

is, this, leave it better.

764

:

and we highlight people, within

the company, within the team

765

:

every month, and, it's basically.

766

:

who is making sure that as we build

and as we stand up, new process or new

767

:

functionality or a new go to market

motion for the first time, who's thinking

768

:

about the systems mindset, who's thinking

longterm, that we're making decisions and

769

:

we're implementing things in such a way.

770

:

That, they're going to endure and

we're not just cutting corners and

771

:

hastily, saying we completed tasks.

772

:

So, that to me is more a mindset.

773

:

That's a culture of values thing

you need to build harder to work

774

:

into a prioritization structure.

775

:

So we think about that one

from a values perspective,

776

:

Justin Norris: Really appreciate

you coming on, sharing a bit about

777

:

your journey and about how you're

thinking about this problem.

778

:

it's certainly, as I mentioned to you

earlier, like I just nerd out about

779

:

this stuff, because it's so hard and I

think so annoying when it doesn't work.

780

:

it's really cool, to find some

ways to make it work better.

781

:

So big fan of what you folks are doing.

782

:

We'll include a link in

the show notes for, anyone.

783

:

listening, who wants to check

you out and yeah, thanks for

784

:

spending some time with me.

785

:

Daniel Giovacchini: of course, love

having the conversation and, uh, love

786

:

learning from you and the other guests as

787

:

well.

788

:

Justin Norris: Cheers.

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