Dr. Angele Close is back to talk with me more about matrescence - the transformation and experience of becoming a mother. Motherhood comes with so many changes, identity shifts, frustrations, overwhelm, delight (I could go on all day).

You’ll Learn:

1. What matrescence is
2. How the transformation of motherhood looks different at different stages of life
3. Common experiences and struggles of matrescence
4. Practical strategies for processing the changes you’re going through
5. Why it’s so hard for moms to give validation to themselves.

It’s a big deal to become a parent! We are forever changed by the experience.

Today, we’re diving deeper into what it means to go through this process, how it changes us, how it's like adolescence, and the beautiful gifts that come with becoming a mom.

------------------------------------

As you may remember from our previous conversations, Dr. Angele Close is a clinical psychologist, motherhood coach, and mindfulness teacher who draws on the Internal Family Systems (IFS) model of healing and transformation to support maternal mental health and well-being.

She helps mothers navigate the identity shifts of matrescence, releasing perfectionism and shame so they can embrace motherhood with greater self-compassion, confidence, and joy. Dr. Angele is also a mother of 3 teens and the author of Unburdening Motherhood: A Guide to Breaking Cycles, Healing Trauma, and Becoming a Self-led Mom.

Transformational Stages

We all go through certain periods of transformation in our lives. Two of the biggest are adolescence and matrescence, and Dr. Angele shared some comparisons between them.

She says that each of these is a transformational journey that every woman who becomes a mother will experience. Just as your body, identity, and friendships change during adolescence, your mindset, identity, career, and relationships also change over the course of motherhood. And while we all go through this transformation, every person’s experience is unique.

Matrescence begins in the moment that you start thinking, “I think I want to be a mother” (or, “Oh shit, I’m going to be a mother!”). And it lasts as long as you are a mother.

Because this covers such a wide range of time and experiences, it can also help to pinpoint where you are within matrescence:

1. Emerging motherhood
2. Early motherhood
3. Late motherhood
4. Post-motherhood (this is where I am right now)

Depending on your stage of matrescence, there are some common patterns and experiences that Dr. Angele has seen come up for moms.

Fantasy v. Reality

This is a big one in early motherhood. Chances are, you had a vision in your mind of what it would be like to be a mom. Maybe it was carried with you from childhood, when you pretended to be a mom to your dolls. Personally, I had a vision of strolling down Venice Beach in a cute outfit with my nails done and perfect hair. I had no idea what it was actually going to be like.

The lived reality of motherhood is usually a bit different from the visions in our heads.

Suddenly, you’re dealing with sleep schedules, feeding schedules, figuring out how to manage your time and energy in a whole new way. There’s a heavy mental load, lots of new demands, and you’re mentally and physically exhausted. The next thing you know, you haven't showered in days, you forgot to brush your teeth, haven't put a bra on, and can't figure out how to get you and your kid(s) out the door.

It can be a little bit of a rude awakening compared to that vision of walking along the beach looking beautiful with the wind blowing in your hair!

You probably realize that there are parts of momming that you don’t like. And then you feel like a bad mom.

When you’re early on in matrescence (the first 4-5 years), it’s kinda like early adolescence. It feels awful, you don’t know who you are, and you’re confused about what you’re supposed to be doing, what matters, and what doesn’t.

That confusion of identity leads us to…

The Inner Split

Matrescence isn’t just about schedules and the demands of motherhood. It is a full transformation of identity.

Matrescence can be really uncomfortable and isolating. You might feel torn between who you were as a woman and who you are becoming as a mom. Between what you want and the limitations that you’re facing.

Dr. Angele explains that most moms make their child a priority, which is natural because babies are so dependent on us for survival. But as time goes on and our inner needs and ambitions are constantly sacrificed, that stuff starts to bubble up and seep out.

You might start to test the waters by mentioning the way you’re feeling to family or friends. And too often, it’s invalidated or responded to negatively. When you’re afraid of not being seen as a “good” mom, you’re less likely to be honest about what you’re going through.

And social media doesn’t help. Those curated feeds give you the idea that you’re supposed to look or act a certain way.

So you think, “Oh, I guess I’m just not doing this whole motherhood thing right.” Then the shame and guilt come in (which Dr. Angele calls “inner emotional poison”).

Ultimately, Dr. Angele says, “We just want to feel validated in our experience. We don’t want someone to solve it for us. It really is about us finding our own way through, but there’s just not enough awareness and support.”

Why Matrescence Matters

Dr. Angele says that learning the word matrescence “put a language to what I'd been struggling with and feeling for 9 years.” She went on to say it was so validating to know that what she was going through was real and that it had a name. When we have a word to put to a feeling, it helps us to make sense of our inner experience.

Think about adolescence and all of the knowledge and resources that exist to help get out kids through that transformation. Moms don’t have that right now to help them through matrescence.

Without this word, so many moms think there’s something wrong with them. But they’re just mothers who are changing, shifting, and figuring things out. We deserve to understand ourselves and understand what we're going through.

Instead of thinking about the struggles in terms of what our kids are going through (e.g. “Oh, that’s just what it’s like to have a toddler.”), what if we framed it in terms of the mother’s transition (“Oh, you’re struggling because you’re in the middle of an identity shift.”)?

As I talk about so much with parenting, it comes down to curiosity. What is the unique inner struggle that this mom is facing?

Processing Matrescence

First of all, let's normalize the fact that you shouldn’t know better. Everyone else doesn’t have it all figured out. It’s normal to struggle.

Many moms have perfectionistic inner manager parts that just want to do it “right”. We want society to see us as successful, a “good” mom. We want that external praise. But trying to be Supermom depletes us. It doesn’t leave room for us to admit that we don’t know.

You’re learning. You’re becoming. You’re on a continuous journey of figuring it out.

Dr. Angele shared some practical tips that she teaches moms who are going through matrescence.

Notice what the word “matrescence” brings up for you. As you’ve heard us define this process, how do you feel? What thoughts came up? Dr. Angele says, “Usually, when I tell moms about matrescence, I see literally see light shine, the eyes widen. They’re processing already that they now have a word that explains all the changes.”

Next, now that you have a word for what you’re going through, think back on your experience. How does this new lens change the way you see your struggles and transformation? Dr. Angele says that in many moms, this is when the heart opens. They’re filled with self-love and compassion for themselves. “It’s like an awakening moment,” she says.

The truth is, it’s hard to find space to be you within matrescence. But it is possible. Dr. Angele encourages us to take advantage of micro-moments. You don’t need 20 minutes of meditation to experience benefits. Try this:

1. Dr. Angele’s “one-breath meditation”: Place your hand over your heart and take 1 deep breath.
2. Take a breath and repeat 2 small phrases to yourself: “I know this is hard.” and “I care.”

These simple compassionate gestures activate oxytocin and literally change your brain.

You can think about this within the framework of the CALM Break, as well.

C: Check in yourself. How am I doing?

A: Align with your values. How do I want to show up?

L: Label with love. This is a transition. I’m still figuring out who I am as a mom.

M: Move. Take a few deep breaths or do a shimmy shake.

The Gifts of Matrescence

Matrescence is an opportunity to become who we want to be and develop the identity as a mother that we want. I know this was certainly true for me, and becoming the mom I wanted to be led me to so much healing and growth.

Dr. Angele agrees. She says, “[Matrescence] wasn't what I thought was going to happen to me. I didn't see it as a spiritual awakening, but it very much is. There is something profoundly mystical in it. We are transforming constantly. We're learning and we're growing and healing…Motherhood is like a portal of our own healing and transformation.”

The experience of matrescence is different for each of us. It’s nuanced, multifaceted and complex…just like humans. Dr. Angele says that is what makes it so beautiful.

Previous Episodes:

1. Episode 197: Freedom from the Good Mom Myth with Dr. Angele Close
2. Episode 198.: Letting Go of Mom Shame with Dr. Angele Close
3. Season 2, Episode 12: The CALM Break

Connect with Dr. Angele:

1. Learn more about Dr. Angele’s work on her website
2. Get the book, Unburdening Motherhood
3. Follow her on Instagram @drangeleclose
4. Follow on TikTok @cyclebreakingmomma

Free Resources:

Get your copy of the Stop Yelling Cheat Sheet!

In this free guide you’ll discover:

✨ A simple tool to stop yelling once you’ve started (This one thing will get you calm.)

✨ 40 things to do instead of yelling. (You only need to pick one!)

✨ Exactly why you yell. (And how to stop yourself from starting.)

✨A script to say to your kids when you yell. (So they don't follow you around!)

Download the Stop Yelling Cheat Sheet here

Connect With Darlynn:

1. Book a complimentary session with Darlynn
2. Learn about the different parenting programs at www.calmmamacoaching.com
3. Follow me on Instagram @darlynnchildress for daily tips
4. Rate and review the podcast on Itunes

Welcome back to Become a Calm Mama. I'm your host, I'm Darlynn

Childress, and on today's podcast episode, what we're talking

about is called matrescence. And this is

really a word to define the experience of

becoming a mom and all of the different

transformations, identity shifts, frustrations,

overwhelm, delight, All of the mixed up

emotions and all of the changes that come

with becoming a mom are addressed in this

concept of matrescence. And I've invited Dr.

Angele Close to talk to me about matrescence

and to share with all of us what it means to go through

this process, how it changes us, all of the challenges about

becoming a mom and going through matrescence. How it's like

adolescence, and what are the beauty— the

beautiful gifts that come with becoming a mom. And

I really love this conversation because Dr. Angele

is the first person who taught me the word

matrescence, and I only discovered this word

while reading her book, which is called Unburdening Motherhood, which I

love. And we did a whole series on her book a

couple of months ago. You can um, find that in the show notes. We'll link

it in there. But when I read

about matrescence, it really hit me in a

new way of understanding just how big of a deal it is

to become a parent, become a mother in particular, and how much

we change. And we're forever changed by the experience, just like

you start as a child and then you become an adult and

you are no longer ever a child again. That's that process of

adolescence.. And becoming a mom really can be like a little bit

of a mindfuck. So we talk about that and give

you some insight and some strategies, and hopefully you

just feel heard and seen and understood

while listening to this episode. So please hop

right into the interview with Dr. Angele.

Okay, welcome, Dr. Angele. I'll call you

Angele. Yeah, welcome back to the podcast. I'm so happy to have you here to

talk about matrescence. So welcome back. Say hi to

everybody. Hi everyone. I'm so happy to be here. This is my jam. This

is my fun spot. Um, and I'm very passionate about it. So love to be

here with you. Yeah. And right before we started recording, I was sharing how much

I love your book, Unburdening Motherhood.

And when I read it, I only had a PDF version. And then as soon

as it came out, I got like my hard copy

and I really want you to get this into everybody's

hands. Like, anyone listening to this podcast, go

on Amazon. I don't know, $12, $17, I don't remember,

but Unburdening Motherhood, Dr. Angele

Close, and get it because it is such a— it's a

book that really walks moms particularly

through healing from life. Yeah, so it

walks moms through like healing from like their own childhood trauma

or whatever came up from before, but also just the fact that they're

moms now, and there's guilt and there's like shame and

all sorts of stuff that comes up, the good mom myth, which we talked about

the last time you were on. So I just think that this book could be

really powerful for women to read and heal, like walk

themselves through what you've offered. And yes, I love

it. Oh, thank you so much, Darlynn. I hope so. I mean, I hope

it lands and gets into the hands of the mom who is ready for

it and looking for a pathway. That was my wish for the

book, was to be able to guide people really through it.

Right. I think we write and produce and create

content and show up in the world to be the person we wish we

had. Yeah, I know that's true for me. Like, sometimes even

my husband will say, you know, too bad you don't have a parenting

coach, because like, I also, you know, I want, I want

support. And, um, so I've just become the person who I wished I

had. When I was going through matrescence, which is the topic for

today. And, um, I did not have the

word matrescence. I don't even

know if I had it before I read your book. Like, I,

um, you were about to say before we started recording that it's starting to like

pick up steam. There's a little bit more conversation, so we wanted to hop on

and like talk about it so that my audience can get— tap in.

So Let's just get into matrescence. Like, how do you define

it? And I was hoping we could talk about what it

is and then why it's helpful to define it, and then kind

of like comparing it to adolescence a little bit, just giving people some

context for it. And then I wanted to share a little bit, and maybe you

can share a little bit about your own journey kind

of going through— or I don't know how you define where you're at in it.

So I wanted to get into a little bit of like

that actual process that maybe someone who's not in this

emerging matrescence stage can talk about, like, kind of what that was like

looking through the rearview mirror. So let's just start

with defining it, like, matrescence. Like, what the heck? What is

it? Yeah, well, you say it— you pronounce it very well. I mean, because

many people don't even know how to say it right. Um, I've been, I've been

trying to train my husband, and he still is like, what is it,

matrescence? You know, like, he's scared to say it. But you're saying it beautifully.

Matrescence is like an adolescence in the sense that it

is a transformational journey. It's

developmentally for everyone, although uniquely for every woman becoming

a mother. So it's sort of like an umbrella term

that represents all of the myriad of changes.

So becoming a mom, and this includes whether it's biologically or

adoptive, and it can start the moment you start thinking, I think I wanna be

a mother. Is even the beginning of

matrescence. And, or, oh shit, I'm going to be

a mother. Yes, exactly.

Sometimes you're not ready, and then you're like, kind of no matter

what, wherever that hits you, like, I'm going to be a mom, or I want

to be a mom. What does that look like? And then, oh, I'll just say

this. So my friend and I really wanted to

become moms. And we had this vision

of ourselves very specifically that we were going to

be gorgeous. Okay. Moms walking on the Venice. I

live in Los Angelees, Venice Boardwalk with our babies in the

strollers. And like in our minds, we were going to look super

coiffed. Like our hair was going to be great. Windblown,

nails done, like kick-ass outfit. And

just these two little boys in strollers and they were just going to like sit

and just be like almost accessories. And

I'm not all that, like, I'm not all that vain or, you

know, whatever. Like, I'm not really like that, but I just had this vision of

what it was going to be like. I had no idea what it was going

to be like. So that's right. Like, when you're a kid and you're like,

oh, teenagers are so cool. Yeah, totally.

And that's part of matrescence, is the fantasy versus the reality, right?

Because that's exactly right, is we carry these ideas from the time

we were little girls, maybe playing with dolls and pretending to be mom. And

now fast forward, here we are. I mean, we've held these

ideas either consciously or certainly subconsciously. And

they're so different from the lived reality of motherhood. And so part

of, that's one of the many changes, right? So the

matrescence acknowledges this profound transformation that we go through,

both through that, like our mindset, our identity, of

course, even our relationships. Like, you know, you have

certain relationships with friends. You mentioned your girlfriend, you

know, People find like, oh, now I've, if I'm the first in my friend group,

let's say, who's now having a child and now, and all those subtle nuances

of difference that we experience with friends that don't have

kids. Like that's not really talked about. People don't really acknowledge

that, but matrescence acknowledges it. Not to mention

kind of career changes. Many women that I've worked with, once they

become moms, their whole idea of what they wanna do in the world or their

career has now shifted. And so it's a real

transformative process. And it's unique to everyone, but it's a real thing. And so

I think to your question, you know, why does having this word

matter? I think it matters so much because when I learned

this term, it put a language to what I'd been

struggling with and feeling for 9 years, 'cause I didn't discover

this word until I'd been a mom. I had a 9-year-old, 7,

and 6, and it was so validating

because Because nobody really talks about some of these changes that we experience

in matrescence, what happens understandably is

we just think it's something that we're struggling with.

Like we tend to turn against ourselves when it's not represented in our

language and in our culture, which matrescence isn't yet. Then

we just think, oh, I guess I'm just like the mom struggling with it. Or

we just don't have the words to that make sense of our inner

experience. Like our emotions and our thoughts and our behaviors and the whole

way that we're changing. So we need a definition. We need

the language to sort of make sense of what we're going through.

Yeah. Yeah, I love— I recently learned

biopsychosocial, you know, like this kind of thing that people talk about. And

it's like, you know, biologically,

psychology, psychologically, socially, and then you can add cultural,

spiritual, financial, like all these different changes that

really do occur. Even like, I didn't birth my

children, but all of a sudden I'm like sleep training

and, you know, trying to manage

time, which in a weird warped way, like I don't— baby time

and toddler time, like those are different times. I never even

thought about like, oh, better get someone to

bed at 7 so they sleep longer. And yeah, like,

okay, uh-oh, they missed nap, so we better— oh, my tomorrow's gonna

look terrible. Like, ah, So many mental and physical things,

and then just being so physically tired and not sleeping. And

so there is just biological stuff happening. There's mental

load. There's just a lot more

demands. And it is something I think

we don't like, I guess, as a mom. It's

not pleasant to have all of this

extra pressure when you think you're going to be just walking along the beach

looking beautiful.. And then the next thing you know,

you're like, haven't showered, haven't brushed your teeth, haven't put a bra on,

like can't figure out how to like get out the door, get people, like once

you have a second kid, like you're like, I can't get these two people in

car seats. It's nothing like you thought. And then you, I

notice for me and for my clients is then, um, they don't like it. They

don't like momming, right?

Yeah. Yeah. Um, it, they like parts of it. They don't like other parts of

it. And then they feel like a

bad mom. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Because even

though we do know, okay, we're going to be doing the naps and you got

to get the diaper bag and all this stuff, what nobody really talks about

is that inner ambivalence, right? Because of the myths, which are

acknowledged in matrescence as well, is that these ideas of how

we think it's going to be versus the lived

reality, they're incongruent. And so when we're actually in

it, 'Oh yes, I signed up for this, I want this,' but we don't understand

that inner turmoil of the parts of you that sometimes are going to say, 'Yeah,

I'd like to tap out of this part, please. Yeah, I want the kid, but

I don't want all this.' Like, it's

not— it's kind of like when you look at a middle

schooler, especially— I, I read, not in your book but somewhere else,

these stages of matrescence. So, I—

emerging motherhood, middle motherhood and late motherhood was kind of

this definition. And I think it's helpful to think about where

you are. And then I actually added

post-motherhood because I am somewhat in post-motherhood.

Like, my matrescence period, it's over. Like, I still

have children, but they're in college, and it's just very, very

different. And, um, but like those early early

emerging motherhood stage is that early matrescence. It's like looking

at a middle schooler, and they're so uncomfortable and awkward, and they don't know

how to act and how to do and what— like, that feeling you get, and

you remember being in that early stage

of adolescence, and it's not great. It just

feels awful, and you don't know who you are, what you're supposed to be doing,

what matters, what doesn't. Like, And I think that

happens to moms, like that 0 to 4, 0 to 5, like

those early preschool years are so insane, like

what happens in parenting, um, and the

juggling that needs to go into it. And I think in

a lot in your book you talk about this feeling torn, so you call

it the inner ambivalence. Can you

define inner ambivalence? Because I don't think everyone It's like, yeah, are you referring

to when I talk about the inner split, like the mom you were before? Yeah,

the person you were before, and then, yeah, and like

that emerging person and how awful

it feels to not, I don't know, know who you are,

know what you're supposed to do.

It's just uncomfortable, so uncomfortable

and so, um, isolating because not enough

moms are honest because I think we have such a

fear of others not seeing us as a good mom. And because we want to

be good at this, right? Like, yes, we don't like some

of this part, but the uncomfortableness,

sometimes we misinterpret it. We think that that's a sign. So because

it's really hard, you know, we think because we see these

images on social media and all these moms— like, you had imagined, I'm going to

be strolling with the baby and it's nothing but looking great and all smiles. But

like, right now there's the moms on Instagram who like have many

children and they just make their own milk and stuff. Like,

I don't, I don't know what is going on, you know. I don't know.

That's another version of motherhood that wasn't— I didn't have

children with Instagram. That didn't exist when my kids

were born, 2004, 2006. They're old. And so I

don't know. I had TV to look at, like, yeah, yeah,

magazines. You had magazines. Yeah, there was like not even Facebook, you know.

It was not social media time, and I still had a lot

of pressure in my head. That's right. I just think

acknowledging this is true for young girls, like adolescents. Yeah.

They look around at those, at what I don't know,

they think is supposed to be what you're supposed to look like or

act like or whatever. And yeah, and then, yeah,

so that mixed reality, but then

also individualized You're, you are torn. And I think you, you talk about it in

the book a little bit, like, I wanted to keep working on my

career, or I really wanted to, um, maybe I, like, I

have a young, I have a client who has 3 little kids and she wants

to build this really big business, and it's just

constantly this feeling of feeling bad, not because she's away from

her kids. She's managed to be okay, like, with the

timing. And is there when they're, you know, out of school

or whatever. But she feels bad because she's not thinking about her children all

the time. Okay. Like the guilt. Like, yeah, you

know, it's like, I'm not even— I forget about them. And I don't know,

we just— it is so such a mindfuck. And I think having

the word matrescence is

so helpful. Um, but can you talk a little bit about that feeling

torn between not even who you thought you would be as a mom, but like

who you were as a

woman. And then, yeah, well, it's a transformation of identity. Like, if I were

to really boil it down, I mean, you're right, it does affect all these areas

in your life, and ultimately you're transforming. I mean,

I just— through matrescence, I think of the phoenix. Like, we

are butterflies, but we're in this cocoon for a period of time because you're

figuring out constantly Growing and learning alongside your child.

So you're figuring out what is, you know, how to be a mom to a

newborn, you know, and that's just nuts. And you're in postpartum and you're just

like survival mode of like the foundational, you know,

skills of just, you know, am I eating, am I sleeping, just

the basics, daily survival. And then you start to come out of that and

now you have this, you know, eventually this being's running around engaging with the

world and Else, of course, there are a million tasks, but you're also

starting to feel, while

many moms will have an ease of prioritizing the child

because kids are so born so dependent, right?

Like biologically, like that, I don't think there's much argument, you know, in the

mom space around that. Like, yes, they take priority. But

like over time, our inner needs like that are constantly sort of

sacrificed and sacrificed and the parts of us that, you know, have, ambitions,

whether it's ambitions for work or interests or things that we are

now not getting for a period of time, you know, eventually

that stuff starts bubbling up and seeping out in ways.

And we feel that ambivalence around it because we can feel

it or think it, and then we start to just feel bad about it.

You know, we might say something to a friend or a family member, and

if they diminish or don't validate for us, so I think that happens a

lot, is moms will start to test the waters by saying certain things about

how they feel, and then And too often it's

responded to negatively, like it's invalidating or it's like, or

just a fix-it part, you know, like a well-meaning

husband, let's say, who just, but he says something that's just like, that's not what

I really want to hear. Right. We want to just feel validated

in our experience, but we don't want someone to solve it for us

because we're in matrescence. It really is about us finding our own way through,

but there's just not enough awareness and support. So what happens is,

is women just think, oh, I guess I'm just not doing this right, this whole

motherhood. So then they start to feel that shame and that guilt that you said,

you know, like it just becomes this inner,

inner emotional poison because we don't have that language and that

understanding and support systems around us the way that we do teenagers, right?

I mean, think of all the knowledge and all the research and all the understanding

that we now parenting, you know, we have all of this information.

To treat teens well so that they can thrive

and develop through this profound 10, you know, 10 years,

give or take, of identity transformation. But moms don't

have any of that right now. Well, you get it in postpartum, I think.

And then after that, it's like everything you're

going through is associated with the child's

age. It's like, then I'm guilty of this, like, well, that's what it's like to

have preschoolers. Oh, that's what it's like to have, you know, busy

years when you're driving everybody to after-school sports, like, oh, that's what it's like to

have a teenager. Instead, because I think sometimes we can

look at teenagers two ways and

think, um, oh, you're going through this because you're a teenager. I

was like, that doesn't help me label what is happening

for me, you know, as a teen. But then also with teenagers, we'll

say to them, we'll take it personally, we'll take their

behavior personally, and so we don't validate like, oh, they're in a time

where they're needing to spend more time with their peers. They're in a time where

they're needing to spend more time alone in order to find their

new identity. They need to

reject the identity or the notion I have of

them to find their real identity,

which typically circles back to whatever

you originally thought of as them. But they have to go through this

process, right? And, um, and so I think sometimes we're

good with teenagers and sometimes we're

not. And that I think sometimes we're good with moms, but we'll talk

about it in ways of saying, oh, that's because of their age.

And I think if we can talk about it like, oh no, that's because

you're going through

a transition, you're in matrescence,

your struggle isn't because you have a

2-and-a-half-year-old, your struggle is because you are in the middle of an

identity shift? I think that would be useful. That would be helpful.

Yeah. And I mean, I get the intent on that is to sort of

normalize it. I mean, that's not wrong. That's not a, that's not a bad way

per se. But yeah, I would follow up with the curiosity about what does it

mean for that mom in that moment, right? So what is

the unique inner struggle that she's facing around

that? And if we're not curious, we don't know because it is those blanket statements

that don't leave room for like our individual

experience. Enjoy it. They're going to go so fast. Someday you'll miss

this stage. Like, you know, all those kind of remarks. And it's

funny because now that I'm like on the other side of this, it is

all very true. Like, yes, yes, don't sweat the small stuff.

It doesn't really matter. But you can't tell— you can't tell a

teenager like someday you won't have acne like that. Like, it's not that big of

a deal. Like, you're, you know, someday you'll get used to those

hips. It's fine. You know,

we hope. But it's like,

you can't say that. It's true that they might come to the other

side and find peace or go through the transition and be okay.

You don't always have a 2.5-year-old. Someday they go and they're 10 and like, they

can like, yeah, make their own quesadilla. Like that

happens. But if you minimize it, it's not—

it doesn't help the person in the moment. And I think even

like the curiosity piece is so helpful for the person

to ask maybe themselves, like, hey, I'm struggling, right? A

mom says, hey, I'm struggling. They should say to themselves, they say

it to a friend, they say it to their partner, whoever, say it to

their mom. And then they might get dismissed. Yeah. Well, that's what it's

like to have this age or that's what it is to be a mom.

It might be nice. Maybe it's not dismissive. It's like, yeah, no, okay. Of

course you're tired. Of course you're overwhelmed. Yeah, maybe they want to

then go quiet and ask themselves like, well, what part of

my identity am I struggling with? Or what are some good questions do you think

they could ask themselves even to

coach themselves through a

better understanding? Yeah, I mean, it, it is

definitely, and that's kind of what I argue for in my book, is that it's

our relationship with ourself that we can do something about. I think

Right now it's tough because modern-day motherhood,

parenting, you know, it is a lot. There's a ton of demands

on parents now. We're calling it in the parent education

space intensive parenting. Intensive. That's right. The

intensive parenting phase. And the majority of that does still land on moms that are

still doing a lot of the, you know, traditional duties, if

you will. So a lot of it is around not getting

enough equality from partners. Because it's just, it's just too

much. So that's the situation.

And so, and I think for a mom to, number one, if

she's not feeling seen and heard in her life, because it does

matter, I think you like who you're, who you're connected to. So if it's

not a supportive spouse or the spouse is just trying to like fix it but

not getting it right, you know, who do you have that's going

to sit with you and get curious with you if you can? And maybe

that's a therapist and maybe it's a coach, like maybe it's, you

know, it might not be within your inner circle. And then from there

is just to, to val— 'cause then we sort of sometimes

need external validation before we give it to ourselves, right? Because our

inner many moms, inner protective systems,

because they've absorbed this idea of being self-sacrificing and they have all these myths

in their subconscious, so they're gonna

be very, defended against sort of validating themselves. Does that

make sense? So when you don't have

enough space to, um,

if you can't say to yourself like, oh, I'm in

a transition and I'm struggling in an identity shift

and I'm torn, emotionally ambivalent, like

I want multiple things at once, like I have a lot of different

feelings here If you don't have that language for yourself, then you're going to need

to have somebody who has some professional probably to

say it back to you. Then you can start to internalize it. So I think

you're right. Yeah. There's that external validation piece, but let's pretend

that everyone listening right now is getting it right now because we, you're

a therapist, right? So they are listening to

this podcast episode. They're like, holy shit, I'm

in matrescence. I didn't know that. I want my husband to hear this. I

want my wife to hear this. I want my partner to hear this. You know,

like, what in the world? Now I know, right? I need all my best friends

to hear this. Yeah. So that they can

understand that, oh, we've been in emerging motherhood and middle motherhood, and

we've been struggling with some identity

around the tension between who we were and where we are

now, what we want and the limitations that are available

to us. We're struggling with the mental load. Right. All

this new stuff I have to think about. Yeah. So

they're validating within and then

what do they do? What do they do with it? Yeah. Well,

I mean, the first thing is, so once they get that word, I

would even say notice what stuff that brings up

for you. Right. So once you have that word, like, usually when I tell

moms about matrescence, I literally see light shine, like,

their eyes widen. Yes, and I, and I know I need to give them

time because they're processing already. So it's like, like

your brain, right, kind of automatically goes in hindsight, well, now that I have this

word that explains like all the changes in my relationships, all

that inner split and that inner turmoil, and, and all the physical, you

know, my relationship with my body and how I feel towards it, that's

part of matrescence. And, um, all these myths and how,

you know, now I'm our maternal style is part of

matrescence. So, so as you're developing your sense of how do I want

a mother, it's like you can't not think of how you were mothered. So all

of that stuff is coming up, right? It's

all, um, grist for the mill, as you will, and it's there. And so now

that you have a word, I would just invite a mom to just,

okay, take that in and now think back to

your experience knowing that word. Now how does that change how

you see And how you see your struggles through this lens,

this lens of this profound transformational

process that you've been in, that you didn't have the language and probably didn't get

the support. Like you said, you might have maybe for postpartum, but for the

most part, nobody else was talking about it in these terms and in

these ways. You've probably just been struggling internally

with it. What does it do now that you have that word?

And 9 times out of 10, self-love. Yeah, yeah, it's that

the heart opens and we just like— that's what I've witnessed. And

it's so beautiful because just having it and like,

it just— we feel the compassion for ourselves and having it. Like,

women will weep and it's so moving. And so from there, I mean,

yes, there are some other to-dos, but I think that's the most— it's like

an awakening moment, right? I agree. Even when I was

reading the book the first time,

I read this section in Matrescence, and then I

went back into my own narrative, and I

recognized that I was talking about this with my friends

when my youngest was 5, like

in kindergarten. He was in a kinder that was like a half

day, so it was 20 hours a week or something like

that. And then I knew that he was going to go to full day in

first grade, and my older one was already in full day. And

I had— I kept thinking 30 hours a

week, like that my children were going to be at school for

30 hours a week. And I

was like, what am I— most people don't think this way, but I was like,

what am I going to do with 30 hours a week? Because

I had been poured into the identity of caregiving

which I liked and enjoyed

for the— whatever, it was mixed.

But I liked being around preschoolers.

Like, my natural personality is lens— I'm very childlike

and playful, so it's very fun for me.

Middle ages were rougher for me, like 6 to 11. I was like,

I don't know what to do, boys. Yeah, I don't want to jump on the

trampoline, it's so hot. Like, I didn't want to do a lot of the boys

stuff. Maybe girls would have felt different. But anyway,

I think that was when I really wrestled with my identity

as a— yeah, as a mom now, like, as a

woman now, as a person now. Those years, I

was just kind of in it. It was just like finding my way, talking to

other moms. What are you guys doing like, like, you know, a lot of mom

groups, so important at that stage. Yeah. And then

I realized like, okay, I want to find a

new identity within motherhood that would work. And that's when I started my

coaching practice. Aha. Um, into 2012, uh, which was when my son

was 6. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but I noticed

with my other friends, we all kind of went through it at the

same time. Like, kind of once you— if

you don't homeschool and your kids go into school age, yeah,

you start to have a little room, a little more space,

a little more time, a little more space. Yeah, like, but then,

yeah, it's not— it's very limited. You got to do pickups, you got to be

there after school, you know, unless you get care, you

know, caregiver. It's just really hard. And, you know, it's hard

to find space to be

you within matrescence. I think it is.

It's, it's incredibly challenging, you know. And I remember

when I, when my third— I had my third and I was done my

maternity leave. And yeah, because you're just like, you're either with a

kid or you're at work. And then, yeah, you know, so whether like

your truncated bookends of like mornings and then the dinner

and then you work. Yes. Yeah. So, and then I

remember, like, and I work with some couples too who have little kids and trying

to help them navigate that. There is— that's one of the common themes is like,

well, where do we get the time? Because at the end of the

day, I'm so tired that if there are, especially with the relationship, it's like there

are some things we're trying to navigate, you know, how to parent. And

oftentimes there's different ideas on how to parent, but there's no space and time to

actually talk about it. Because if you only get an hour together at the end

of the day, both, both parents are so tired and they don't want

to stir the pot, and they probably aren't in the best energy to have a,

you know, potentially difficult conversation. Or— and they only get that

hour if they've got bedtime on lock. Like, oh yeah. And that's— and then

as a parenting coach, I coach bedtime, morning— like, I just, I'm in

the weeds all the time. And it's like, you

only get that hour if you have some good boundaries and limits and you've

taught your kids how to go to bed. Otherwise you really don't have any

time. No, you might not. You might have one partner falling asleep with one

kid at 8 PM and then, yeah, and we're passing ships

in the night. And that's so true. And so finding the time.

So I think what's, what's pivotal for moms, and I hope that I wrote my

book in a way to explain that connecting with ourself

and then even if we're still talking about partners, but it's,

you can do it in little micro moments. Like, we don't need

to do 20 minutes of meditation with ourselves to still get a benefit

of just like quickly deep breath, hand on

heart. Uh, you know, I talk about the one breath, one breath meditation in my

book because during COVID that was, you know, what my therapist suggested

to me. She's like, a one breath meditation. And of course I'm like, how

is one breath a meditation, right? I have a resistant part that wants to

argue it, but when I tried it I could notice

a difference. To go inside, take a breath, and even just say to your parts,

"Okay, I know this is hard and

I care." Two phrases. And then with your hand

on your heart, it actually, that gesture we know will

affect our neurology in our brain. It activates

oxytocin. Our body feels the warmth and that care. So it literally does

change our brain. In a microsecond. And

that's a compassionate gesture. And if we do that for ourselves

and then with our partner— here, you know, little bits of contact,

we know from Gottman research and couples therapy, you

know, it's those little micro moments that matter. Um, and so

it is doable. So I just offer that as like hope that there

are ways that we can help and heal ourselves

in those doable moments of modern-day motherhood. I'm not saying

it's easy, but it's possible. Yeah. And

this episode comes out right after the, the episode where I talk about the

calm break. And it is, you know, checking in

with yourself, aligning with your values, label with love,

and then move. Like, so move your body or move your

mind. And it is that kind of like just checking in,

aligning, like, who am I? Who do I want to be? Labeling, this

is hard, or I've got this, or I'm feeling overwhelmed. And

I love, you know, using your body, like putting your hands on

your heart. It is such, it's such a like magic trick. And

it doesn't take hardly any, it doesn't take anything, you know, it's very easy

to do. And then just kind of gently like, yeah, breath or

just kind of a deep stretch, like a shimmy shake, move that cortisol,

that stress juice through. Yeah. I've

been teaching that kind of idea a lot in my practice

of just 3, 3 deep breaths. Like I'm breathing

in, I'm breathing out, I'm breathing in, I'm breathing

out, I'm breathing in, I'm breathing

out. Yeah. It's just a couple more than one,

but it's doable. It gives you just enough,

I think, of that moment, right? To, because

it's it doesn't take much, but you do have to kind of go, yes, this

is— I'm gonna intentionally take

a little break. And that, that can be so powerful. And I think

in this conversation, recognizing

like when you're doing that labeling in a calm

break, like labeling, like, especially these early years,

like, I'm in matrescence, like, this is a transition, I'm

still figuring out who I am as a mom, I'm still figuring

out how I want to show up, or like I'm still learning tools

and skills, really validating that like it's not— you're not supposed to know everything

right now. You're in this transition. Now that I have

raised my kids, I know what to do, to

be honest. Not that I

did it like, you know, but it's in hindsight I'm like, oh yeah, no, I

figured that all out. Like, because I did figure it out because I already had

a 6-year-old. I did it. Like, it's particularly my 6-year-old, the one I raised.

I got that one. I did it. But when you're in the middle,

you're still figuring it out all the time. Like, I don't know how to have

college-age students yet. I'm guessing that's right, but because you're in it—

but that, I mean, that's how, that's how it works, right? That's what I'm realizing

the older I get. Like, the more wisdom we get, and

we're not, you know, we have to learn through our own trials and

errors. And then now we can offer that to the younger moms, because you're right.

Like, as you said, I wrote the book I wish I had. It is true.

And so now I want to be the voice that says You know, I want

to go back or go to moms and create spaces

because I wished I had that, you know, and

spread the word about matrescence because the more moms that understand,

like, I don't want other moms to have to live 10,

20 years before they learn the term, you know. I heard

one story, I think this might be in my book, about like a grandma

where the young woman, we were in a training together, and she tells

her grandma about this word matrescence and she's like 80-something.

And she, you know, started to sort of get teary or wet in the

eyes and was like, oh, I thought there was something wrong

with me. You know, and so that's what happens if we don't

have that term, which is a real thing. Like it was an anthropologist who

came up with this term who studied women becoming mothers.

And to not have a word that explains all of

these changes that we go through it just does such a

disservice to moms because we deserve to understand

ourselves and understand what we're going through. It's a real thing. Yeah.

Um, and yeah, we can offer that, darling. Like, we can, you know, go— I'm

not even saying like, sure, I have the wisdom now because I'm

done, but when you're in the middle, it's so easy to think you should

know better, or other people have figured this out

already. And it's like, no. Yeah, I

think normalizing This is— I, I'm learning. Yeah, that's

right. Becoming. I'm— this is a podcast called Become a Calm

Mama. It's continuously a

journey towards becoming. And when we are

in that labeling and we're gentle with ourselves and we're like, okay, I'm

still figuring this out. Yeah, I'm— it's supposed to be a

struggle. Like, that's okay, you know. And whatever that

kind of move your mind kind of ideas

in, in, especially in the matrescence, I've always thought of it like,

um, I think I've referred to this as motherhood, and

I've had, I've had, uh,

trouble labeling, um, it, but in my mind it has

been essentially motherhood. And

when I think about motherhood, it is like

my experience of being my children's

mother and this period of time where I was

in motherhood, and I am no longer in motherhood.

I, I know that that's not— that that's

true. And letting that period of my life

be over, it's part of this, uh, shifting that

happens at the age and stage I'm

in. Um, but so motherhood is what I've called

it, and having the word matrescence is, is also very valuable. And one

of the distinctions I've made is in the acts

of mothering, and I still do a lot of mothering of

my children, and that's kind of how I figured it out for

myself, like this period of time

of my motherhood, like

a, like young adulthood ends, right? Or whatever, like,

you know. Yeah. So this period of matrescence, like, that's why I call—

I think of myself as post— oh, it's funny, I wrote

instead of writing in my notes emerging matrescence, I actually

literally wrote emerging motherhood. They're the same in my mind.

Got it. Yeah. So the words are interchangeable for

me.. And, um, but the acts of mothering

don't stop. I get to continue to be my

children's mother, and that's beautiful. Like, I think sometimes people feel

scared to let go of motherhood or recognize

that it's a period of time. Like, you don't want

to be in adolescence forever. No.

And that's probably why— I mean, what I love about matrescence, and while some

people have said, you know, they think it's like 7 years. I mean, I disagree

with that because of the many stages that you see women

go through, right? So like you've launched kids, the quote unquote empty

nest, what we, you know, what we call in our culture of the empty nest

syndrome. Some people, I think they say syndrome. I call it

a roomier nest in this

stage. Roomier because they're back and forth all the time. That's

right. That's right. It's not empty. It feels quite full. It's not empty.

And then sometimes it's very empty, so it's kind of roomier. Like, I have a

lot more room, a lot more time to think about what I want to do.

It's so cool. Like, getting out of matrescence, by the way,

is like great. It's kind of like when you get through adolescence and you're like,

you know, good, I get all this freedom again. That's right, you have the

freedom. You're like— and I like the idea of emerging, middle,

and late. Yeah, for moms to kind of think of themselves like, yeah, the

emerging motherhood, emerging matrescence is a period of time that is really challenging.

If you think about early

adolescence, it's very uncomfortable. Very bumpy. Very bumpy, right? And then

you kind of get into like 16, 17, 18, they start

to kind of move through and they're a

little more predictable, but they're still in a transition, you know, these

adolescents. And then late adolescence is kind of where my

young adults are. Yeah, you know, they've kind

of got it, you know, but they still need a

lot of support. So it's just kind of like raising

your own kids. Like, yeah, there should be— I don't know, the literature can say

what it wants, research can say what it wants. But I was just thinking, like,

for me, yeah, to frame it up for moms, it's like,

there's these kind of 3 periods of time. It depends on how

your kids are staged too. Yes. But that

you're, you know, it's a process of time you're going to be raising

kids and then that period is over.

You raise them. That's right. And, you know, and but like you've said,

nowadays there is this like revolving door, right? Where, yeah, kids

don't totally launch and some of that, right, has to do with the rest of

the world and where things are at. So I mean, that's always, it's

always like fluid. Like it's, that's what's so interesting to me is We can, even

when we say stages, there's fluidity in that and there's

also individual variation. I mean, there are, you might be a mother to a kid

with, you know, very high special needs that will persist. And so you won't

be launching the way that you thought. And so that's a part of your

matrescence, right? Is feelings of grief and loss maybe around that or needing

to adapt to that. And so there's, it's so nuanced and it's so

complex. And with that, I think it's really beautiful.

Like it's, multifaceted and the complexity of us humans.

And I love just to jump back to Darlynn, I liked how

you said like we should be given permission and space

to not know and to be learning as we go because that's what it, that

is what we're doing. But it's what it is. Our culture, like we're so people,

so many moms have perfectionistic parts, right? Which I talk about in

my book and I get that. So we have these inner manager parts that just

like we wanna do it right. We wanna be, quote unquote

successful according to society and be a good mom and get that external

praise and all of these human things. But it leads us away.

It makes us depleted because we're trying to be super mom. And

it doesn't leave room for us to admit, "I don't

know." So many moms, right, I think have parts that

they're performing perfection. And so it leads some moms who

feel isolated because it's like, "Oh, I guess everybody," like you said, "Everybody's got it

figured out but me." Everyone's performing quite well. Everyone's

performing so well. Online, but even in the park, in a school pickup, you

know. And, and I've had clients like who will say, oh yeah, so my preteen

hates me now. Like, she cracks a joke and says, oh, my preteen hates me.

And they all just stare at her like, oh really? You know. And

I'm just, oh, it's part of the frustration. It's what it's supposed to be

like when you have a preteen. And

that is emotionally challenging as a mother to— you're going through

a new period of time raising these kids. It's so new. That's

right. And, and to have these other moms who didn't feel like—

they've obviously felt like they had— they couldn't be vulnerable. They couldn't

be with that mom and her open vulnerability. And there's just too many

examples of that. So I hope that, you know, us speaking

about matrescence will, will plant a seed for moms to recognize you're not

supposed to have it all figured out. You don't need to perform perfection.

You're actually doing yourself a disservice by, you know, pushing

yourself to be perfect and not giving yourself breathing room

to to evolve in this matrescence phase.

Yeah. Oh, so good. I— last, as we closed,

I noticed that in your book, um, you had

kind of talked about the gifts of matrescence sort of at

the end. And I am so

grateful for the opportunity to raise

kids. Like, I have this thing, this parenting manifesto that

I created, and Parenting is my opportunity for growth is one

of the statements. And I

would not be who I am today had I

not parented these particular children. And

they both have special needs, they were both adopted, like trauma, like we got,

we got a lot going on over here. And I

have high ACE score, like I got a lot of

trauma. So you put that, those things in

a soup and it was, you know, it was

messy. But because I wanted to be the mom I wanted

to be and like I knew who, who I wanted to

show up as and, and I had to find that for

myself that then I was like kind of forced

to heal and grow. And adapt and like soothe

my nervous system and understand my cortisol, like all

sorts of stuff that I'm so grateful

for. Yes. And I think if we can see

ourselves in matrescence and then see that this is an

opportunity to become who we want to be and develop the identity

as a mother that we want, it doesn't have to look like everybody else's

version. But we do have agency and we get to like define it

and then grow. And your

book, Unburdening Motherhood, is

an amazing tool for someone who wants to go through a

healing journey. You know, it says your subtitle, A Guide to

Breaking Cycles, Healing Trauma, and Becoming a

Self-Led Mom. And it's like if anybody

listening wants to take matrescence, like, by the, you know, by the

horns or whatever, and like ride it,

that getting your book would be really useful. Because I think if you're—

if you're gonna choose to have matrescence be an opportunity

for growth, yeah, you're gonna have some pain.

Yes. And having someone to walk that— walk you through that, um, and then

obviously reaching out for therapy or coaching or

whatever it is So I just want to say thank

you for naming it,

naming matrescence, and yeah, writing this book and the

work you've done. So is there anything you would like to leave

moms, an encouraging note or anything you want to share? Yeah,

no, thanks, Terilyn. I mean, I would just echo what you just said, you know,

and that's because I resonate. That's been my experience. It wasn't what

I thought was going to happen to me, that's for sure. Like, I wasn't like

I'm gonna be a mom and totally, you know, I

didn't see it as a spiritual sort of awakening part of my

journey and my spirituality. Like,

but it very much is, you know, which sometimes

you don't realize because you were so focused on the tasks of, you

know, teaching children and like we're socializing these humans. But

there is something profoundly mystical in it, which

I think is explained in this word matrescence, is

we are transforming constantly. We're learning and we're growing and

healing. You know, our children are those little mirrors to us about

what's wanting to be healed. And so I think it's a—

it's an amazing portal. Motherhood is like a portal of our

own healing and transformation. And so it's a hopeful message. Yes,

it's hard, but like, you know the expression, no mud, no

lotus, right? So that, that in a nutshell is how I view matrescence. So

I try to help moms understand it's a a real

growth opportunity. And I— if they're up for it, you know, I would love for

them to read my book and reach out and let me know how it lands.

Yeah. Okay, good, good, good, good. Well, um, thanks for listening, everyone. So

you can get Unburdening Motherhood by

Dr. Angele Close. Um, yeah, so thanks for being here. Thanks for having

me, darling.