What does it really take to walk away from prestige and bet on yourself? How do two rivals become partners, build a team that never loses a lawyer to another firm, and still keep their humanity in the fight? Is the billable hour dying, or is it stronger than ever in big-ticket litigation? And what do you do when your daughter is born at 3 a.m. and your Eleventh Circuit argument is at eight? This 100th episode dives into the gut calls, the near-misses, and the systems that make a firm outlast its founders. Ready to hear what most don’t say out loud?

But one thing that has surprised me is how sticky that has been, you know, and that today, I think more than even 10 years ago, that is probably the most common fee structure that exists in major business litigation matters. That's a business surprise.

Welcome to the Founding Partner Podcast. Join your host, Jonathan Hawkins, as we explore the fascinating stories of successful law firm founders. We'll uncover their beginnings, triumph over challenges, and practice growth. Whether you aspire to launch your own firm, have an entrepreneurial spirit, or are just curious about the legal business, you're in the right place.

Let's dive in.

And it's very special 'cause I have my two friends, coming on. we got Mike Caplan and James Cobb, and it's also special 'cause this is actually the second time, we're having this podcast. We can talk about that too. The first attempt, got lost. So, I think this time, hopefully that doesn't happen, but I think being in person will also give this a different feel also.

So Mike and James, thanks for coming on. Thanks for doing this again.

Michael Caplan: Thanks for having us. We're excited to be here, and I'm glad that that first one got lost 'cause we had an excuse to be together in this fancy studio and be celebrating your 100th episode.

James Cobb: Amen. Also, the first episode was terrible, we get a chance to redo it.

They're like, what the hell are you guys doing? but with hindsight, you know, you guys have really built something special and I remember when you started, and I remember when you hired your first attorney, and now you're up to how many?

Michael Caplan: 18. 18. That's right. As of next or later this month should.

Jonathan Hawkins: Awesome. So why don't you sort of give an overview of, of what your firm does. I call it sort of business litigation, but I think you guys probably can describe it better than that.

Michael Caplan: Sure. So we're a litigation firm that specializes primarily in business litigation or commercial litigation, appellate practice and class actions. We consider ourselves generalists in the sense that, you know, there are a wide variety of matters that we are capable of handling, but they typically involve high stakes business litigation or issues that involve, you know, significant exposure or significant complexity. and, you know, we enjoy being in the courtroom. We also enjoy trying to resolve matters that never see the light of a courtroom. so that tells you a little bit about our firm. I can go into more detail if you'd like,

Michael Caplan: as as did our families and most of everyone else.

Jonathan Hawkins: So I guess the first question is, is what what compelled you to do it? What was the spark? Why'd you do it? And then maybe the second part, why did you two do it together? How, how did you guys come together?

James Cobb: That's a good question. I'm happy to take first one. You can take the second one.

Michael Caplan: Sure.

Jonathan Hawkins: So I gotta know who won the ABA moot court competition.

Michael Caplan: Well, neither of us,

Michael Caplan: were, we were, we were both, you know, we, we both made it to the, to the semifinals and finals and, and I won't say who made it to which, but we both lost in South Texas.

James Cobb: South Texas College of

Jonathan Hawkins: where those lawyers are excellent.

Michael Caplan: Yes. Yeah. They, They, They, must have been really excellent. Yes. you, you asked Jonathan.

Jonathan Hawkins: we both on the US Supreme Court now, right? Yeah.

Jonathan Hawkins: So let's talk about, I wanna talk more about the timing. So you said you guys were basically wooing each other or whatever for, for about a year, you know, the, the timing is ne never seems to be perfect. So, you know, af you know, at some point it happened. So what made it happen? What, and how did that sort of go down? Because you're at two different firms, you know, were, did the timing for both of you line up perfectly or did, how did that go down?

Michael Caplan: I don't, but there's also the, the Christmas dinner we should we should talk about.

James Cobb: Yes.

Michael Caplan: Yeah. Yeah.

James Cobb: But y you, know, I don't want to go too much into the details about what was happening with my experience at Rogers & Hardin other to say it was incredibly positive and I was presented with an opportunity that really forced me to decide what direction do I want my career to go in. And that coincided with where Mike was and help me make the decision that, okay, now's the time. If I'm gonna do this, this is the time to do it. Not, you know, 10 years from now, which I think would've been the alternative, which would be about where I am today in my but I, I wonder what your response to that is.

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah.

But that there are these, these vignettes from that experience that have just confirmed partnering up with him was the right 'cause. He is not an ego first guy, and I'm not an ego first guy. We're in this together. Our goal was to build firm. If you look at the history of small firms all over the country, very few survive the retirement of their founding I'm sure you've, you know, thought about that with this podcast. And our goal, I remember having a, a discussion about this. We wanna build a a firm that outlasts our careers, right? And how do we do I don't know. I mean, We've tried figure that out. We're in that process now. But that was the goal from the beginning. And I never had a doubt was the right guy to deal with.

James Cobb: Is that the rule against perpetuity?

Jonathan Hawkins: Hang it close close. Pretty close. But that's sort of my theory and, and we've seen some of that in reason, I won't name names,

Michael Caplan: Sure.

Jonathan Hawkins: But recent

James Cobb: Sure.

Jonathan Hawkins: Legal stories we've been hearing here in Atlanta, it seems to be sort of holding true. There are exceptions. I mean. Their firms have been here, you know, 150 years at this point now.

So there are definitely ways to do it, but yeah. you gotta work to do it. It doesn't happen by accident.

Michael Caplan: Yeah.

James Cobb: For sure.

Michael Caplan: Well, she was just tired of hearing us talk about it. She was like, either y'all are gonna do this or not.

Jonathan Hawkins: or shut up?

James Cobb: Shut

Jonathan Hawkins: but so, you know, question a lot of people have is, you know, when you start a firm, you know, do you have, did you have cases or clients? Did you have work or was it just a complete leap of faith? Or did you have what you believed to be a pipeline of potential work, said.

Jonathan Hawkins: Meant to be.

The law firm lifecycle is available on Amazon. Now, back to the show.

Jonathan Hawkins: So so I wanna circle back on sort of the partnership piece. you know, I talked to a lot of folks that are going into partnership with people. I mean, I've had people that form a partnership and it's done within 12 months, you know, and they come together and it doesn't work. And you guys have been at it for almost 12 years now, maybe 14 if you count the years to it took to, get there. And so as you, as you sit here today and reflect back, you know, for others out there that may be exploring a partnership, what advice would you give in terms of, you know, how to explore it on the front end and then how to make it work after you've come together?

James Cobb: Before you move on, there's a fantastic story involving the 11th circuit that I gotta think is the actual day that you thought, did I make the right decision in starting this firm? When Eva was born and you had, so Mike's youngest daughter, youngest child, Mike had an argument. Was it a, was it a pro bono? It was

Michael Caplan: a pro bono case that's right.

James Cobb: pro bono. A we're handling pro bono.

Michael Caplan: About three in the morning.

James Cobb: And what time was your oral argument set for?

Michael Caplan: It was set for Eight. I ultimately, generously able to make the argument later in the deck.

James Cobb: So we, had, we had, by this point in time, had we had enough in way of resources to like have a contingency plan. Okay. You know, Mike's gonna be in the hospital, we're all emailing, how are we gonna make this work?

Someone's gonna call the clerk's office and see if we can get a continuance of the argument. I think you ended up calling the clerk's office from the hospital they said, sure, we'll move you to last on the calendar as opposed to first.

Michael Caplan: That's right. And so I, yeah, I, I left the hospital at about nine o'clock, so it was about six hours after Eva's birth. Thankfully my in-laws had come and changed my clothes in parking lot I brought shoes to the courthouse. Right. Yeah. James had to bring my shoes because I had either boots or, tennis shoes on and, uh, yeah. Made the argument with no sleep on the day of my daughter's

Michael Caplan: James, good look in my you know my, my loose tounge? You know, it's a good question. We were lucky to have some of the folks who joined us early, like Brandon Waddell, are now partner, you know, kind of make the same bet on us that and himself that, you know, we made. And, you know, it's, it's one of these things where it's a combination of, like James said, opportunity or opportunism and relationships and, you know being candid and honest with folks and, and, but also excited about the possibility of what one can achieve together or what, what a great team can achieve together. And so, I think Brandon had been clerking for Judge Beverly Martin and, you know, I had

James Cobb: Judge kravitz actually.

And we persuaded Brandon to come on board and, and work with us. And that was thanks in part, to Judge Martin's recommendation and her, you know, very, uh, positive, I think assessment of our firm. And, and ultimately, you know, we really enjoyed working together. We did some great things together and, it doesn't hurt that he fell in love with, uh, uh, his now wife who, you know, was living in Atlanta and he decided not to go to dc.

I think the excitement that we brought to our practice was, something that, you know, really resonated with folks. you know, like James said, I mean, we work really hard, but we really like what we do and we really care about doing our work. At a level of excellence that, you know, makes us highly competitive within the market, but we also know how to prioritize our lives where, you know, it's not just about how great of a lawyer you are, it's also about how good of a person you are and, you know, and, and we've always prioritized things like family and, you know, personal lives and, and respected those pursuits of others and encouraged them.

And we all desire to be with our families when we can. But when it's time to make a sacrifice and, you know, stand up for a client and work a night or a weekend, we do. Only if that's necessary. Not as a means of, you know, just culture, firm culture. we try to avoid false emergencies and, you know, that to me is a big deal.

I think that a lot of firms, for whatever reason, management style or just individual, organizational style, you know, there you hear a lot about false emergencies. And if you can get things done a little bit early, you can plan, prepare, think ahead, and avoid the last minute stress. The self-created stress, you really can achieve a much happier daily work.

And we've tried, worked really hard to maintain our firm's humanity. And a big piece of that is getting people who not just care, not just about doing work at the level we expect, but also treating people the right way. Being fundamentally kind. We're aggressive litigators. We fight like hell in court, but we're not disrespectful.

And this is a, this is a really hard job. And I think, I feel like that's, that's probably the thing that I'm most proud of with the firm that we've created. And I think a lot of that credit goes to Mike and the credit for not, maybe I've, I, I've withheld my tendencies to drive people away, but I, I've tried to contribute to that too.

Michael Caplan: You Absolutely.

Jonathan Hawkins: That, that is a great, stat, I'll call it. Although the longer you practice I

Michael Caplan: I know. Yeah. We're fixing myself. It's inevitable. Like, like

But one thing that has surprised me is how sticky that has been. you know, and, that today, I think more than even 10 years ago, that is probably the most common fee structure that exists in major business litigation matters. that's a business surprise. I mean, I would've thought that our industry would've.

You know, would've innovated more, along those lines. you know, in terms of forming the firm, I mean, obviously we, what we talked about, you know, I think that although we had grand ambitions for, you know, our practice, we did not, I don't think ever fully visualized the idea that we would be an 18 lawyer firm within, you know, 11 or 12 years.

Jonathan Hawkins: so James, you mentioned a minute ago, something you're very proud of, of the firm and that, that no lawyer has left to go to another law firm. And so that's awesome. I wanna ask, is there anything else as you look back, that you're particularly proud of, of the firm? Whether it's some pro bono case that you handled or something else. Is there anything else as you look back that stands out as something like, we did something really cool there, whether it's for somebody else or even just for the firm, or somebody in the firm?

and, you know, we, we were also the firm that stood up and challenged the, A 12 week abortion ban in Georgia and, and succeeded at the trial level. And that case continues after the George Supreme Court, you know, reversed the initial decision making of the trial judge. so we have, you know, those are two examples.

After 90 days. We challenged that policy and ultimately, made a significant recovery on behalf of a nationwide class of people who, were damaged by that. And that was pretty meaningful. So, I mean, we've, we've done work both pro bono work and you know, what I'd call for-profit work that, still makes us pretty proud of, you know, the, the, the results that we've achieved.

Alright, last question. So, again, we've talked about all the stuff you guys have done over the last 12 years. As you look to the future, what's, the vision? what do you, what do you guys see? And it may be for the firm, it may be something else. And it may be the same, or it may be different. So Mike, we'll start with you.

Jonathan Hawkins: Alright. James, vision for the future, whether it be for the firm or personally?

James Cobb: So vision for the future of the firm to me is to continue on the path that, that we're on now. keep finding the right people, keep looking for opportunities and taking them when they present themselves, and keep working to improve the team and and, uh, having a significant impact on our clients' businesses and on their lives. Personal. I hope that I never work anywhere that this is what I want to do till the end of my career. And, uh, you know, as, long as I can this out, I absolutely will.

Jonathan Hawkins: You're gonna be, uh, touring with, uh, guitar in a, Yeah.

Michael Caplan: Gotta have fun too. Yeah.

James Cobb: Our, our partner retreats are pretty guitar heavy.

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah.

Michael Caplan: That's right. Speaking of, we have one tomorrow and guitars are mandatory. I hope you know that.

James Cobb: Of course they are. Yeah

Michael Caplan: Well, I can be reached, uh, my email address is mcaplan@caplancobb.com. you know, we're on the internet or

And, We, you know, we have benefited from your advice over the years and we appreciate that quite a lot. You've been, you know, a mentor and counselor to us, and, you know, we've been co-counsel on opposing counsel and I deeply appreciate our relationship and I think it's amazing that you've built this podcast and you're celebrating your 100th episode in addition to starting your own firm and being very successful at that as well.

James Cobb: Here, here, i'll also say I greatly prefer to be. You in a counselor role with you or a co-counsel role than an, uh, opposing counsel role. We won't talk those. That experience here, but, can't talk about this, uh, but I'll echo everything Mike said. Thank you so much for having us. This podcast has turned into something big and, and I feel like it's a great honor for us to have been the guest on the hundredth episodes. So thank you.

Jonathan Hawkins: And how do they find you? James, what's

Jonathan Hawkins: Awesome. Thanks guys.

Michael Caplan: Thank you.

Jonathan Hawkins: We have fun.

Michael Caplan: Appreciate it.

OutroUpdatedWebsite-1: Thanks for listening to this episode of the founding partner podcast. Be sure to subscribe on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts to stay up to date on the latest episodes. You can also connect with Jonathan on LinkedIn and check out the show notes. With links to resources mentioned throughout our discussion by visiting www.lawfirmgc.com. We'll see you next time for more origin stories and insights from successful law firm founders.