Michelle McCann has been working in book publishing since 1991, and she's still as enthusiastic about it as ever. She chats with Corinne and Emily about her lifelong love of kid's books, her nomination for this year's Oregon Book Award, the many publishing hats she's worn over the years...and, of course, how Tinkerbell follows her own rules!

I wish you could still do that. Yeah, I know, although

I did talk to someone recently who I won't say, who it was, who

said that. I was like, how did your weekend away go? And she's

like, Oh, my friend, and I learned a bunch of Disney

choreography off of YouTube.

It was great. And I was like, you're still allowed to do that.

Apparently, you

welcome to the hybrid pub Scout podcast with me, Emily

einerlander and me. Corinne kolasky, hello, hello.

We are mapping the frontier between traditional and indie

publishing, and today we have Michelle McCann on ever since

she was a girl, Michelle always wanted to create books. In

college, she studied children's lit at Brown University, then

got her MFA in writing for children and young adults from

Vermont College. For the past 25 years, she has been editing and

art directing children's books and collaborating with authors

and illustrators on hundreds of titles. She has also written

some children's books of her own, which have won a bunch of

awards for 13 years.

For 13 years, she shared her passion for kids books, teaching

children's book publishing at Portland State University when

she doesn't have her nose buried in a book. She's an adrenaline

junkie. She loves snowboarding, whitewater rafting and scuba

diving. She lives in Portland, Oregon with her husband, her two

kids and three cats. Welcome, Michelle, hi.

We're so happy to have you. I'm so happy to be here for my very

first podcast, I'm so excited. We're very flattered. We're very

honored that you that we can be your first podcast experience.

Really nice, that it's people I know and like, and that makes it

a lot more fun. So Corinne, do you want to open with the

icebreaker question? Oh, sure, okay, so please tell our

audience why you have a Tinkerbell tattoo, and what the

particular significance of Tinkerbell it is to you, what

she means.

That's a great question. What does Tinkerbell mean to me? And

why do I have her tattooed on a crotch? That's a good idea to

get that clarified. I didn't know that part. Yeah, well, you

know, she's on my bikini line. So

very painful to get a tattoo. I will just advise you about that

Tinkerbell. Tinkerbell, when I was a girl, was kind of my hero.

And it's very kind of twisted, because not in the like, she's a

pretty fairy kind of way, but because Tinkerbell is a total

badass, like, if you actually read the story, Tinkerbell has

her life with all the boys, and it's like her and the boys, and

then all sudden, Wendy, the world's most irritating girl

character ever, shows up and becomes this irritating mom

slash girlfriend figure, and ruins all the fun. And so what

does Tinkerbell do? Tinkerbell does not try to befriend Wendy.

She has Wendy shot with an arrow. That is how Tinkerbell

deals with it. Yes, right? Yes. Tinkerbell is such a badass, and

like she does, has no remorse for it, like she doesn't care.

She just gets Wendy shot with an arrow, and like Wendy's, I think

either almost dies or dies and then comes back to life, like

it's bad.

And I just like that combination of, sort of, like a kind of a

badass, and the the fantasy element and magic. Like as an

eight year old, she was just my hero. And so I always vowed if I

ever got a tattoo, it would be of Tinkerbell. And when I was

19, that's what I did, and never any more tattoos after that,

because it's very painful. So yes, my Tinkerbell tattoo always

reminds me kind of of my what I love. I love kids books. And

she's sort of a great symbol of the kinds of kids books I love,

little twisted feminist

full of magic. So yeah,

she doesn't need a mother figure. She's all grown up.

Doesn't and she doesn't care what the boys think, and she

doesn't care what the girls think. She just does her own

thing. So, yeah, I like Tinkerbell.

Okay, so our first question, What drew you to the publishing

industry in the first place, and how did you get your start? Oh,

that's a great question. Well, as my bio states, I'm truly one

of those people that I have always been obsessed with books

to the point where my mom, like, you know, wanted me, got me in

therapy because I was not a social child. I was a child who

hid off with books. So for example, I would go off to a

birthday party, like in the fourth or fifth grade, and the

parents would call my mom and be like, we can't find your

daughter. She's gone.

Had you checked the closets yet? And then they would go.

Check the closet, and they would find me with stolen books in

their reading hiding away from the children. So So you and

Corinne would have been the equivalent of friendship for

people who do that, because you would sit on opposite sides of

the library right reading books and occasionally, like shyly

looking at each other at different times. Yeah. And if

Corrine got up the courage to invite me over to her house, I

would go to her bookshelf, pick up a book and ignore her for the

rest of the day, and probably

so yeah, oh yeah, we would have been best friends. Did you spend

your childhood summers in the library like I did? Yeah? Oh

yeah, yeah, yeah, sure, yeah. And my sister always laughs,

because all the childhood photos of me. I'm bent over a book, and

she's like, That's always how I remember. I remember you, you

never spoke to me,

trying to get your attention away from a book. And I'm like,

and now I get paid for it. All

good dreams come true. Um, so yeah, you're so social Now, like

all gurus, all fake, I have to take medication to do that. Like

it is not easy

to be social. I do it because I have to. But you're doing a

great job. Thank you. You had me

once. Like the part about an author that I least like is the

being social part, and I have to work really hard at it, and I

have to push myself to do that part. The part I love is being

alone in a room with books and with kids. I like being with

kids. They're easy. So, yeah, I will say you are an incredibly

good company with other authors who also hate being special. So

you probably know that, right?

I went to the Oregon Book Awards like cocktail party the other

day and made fun of it. They're like, we're putting a whole room

full of totally awkward people who don't want to speak to each

other all together. They

can't. None of us want to be here. I was making a joke about

Tara and I went to

a WP and they had in their schedule like dance party 10pm

to midnight. And I'm like, What? What is that? Everyone,

everyone's standing around the dance floor, and maybe, like,

two publicists dancing in the middle, like, what's going on?

And then what did she say? She was like, it'll be like, one of

our Catholic school dances where we you, like, throw a shoe in

the middle of the dance floor and, like, somebody has to dive

for it. I don't know. I know you all, you all put your shoes in

the middle of the dance floor, and then you, like, take someone

else's shoe and dance in it. It's, it's the middle school

version of a key party. Wow. I love it. I do love to dance.

That's another thing. Um, so, yeah. So I was a nerdy, book

loving kid, and I always wanted to do something with books. I

originally thought I wanted to be an illustrator, but then it

turns out, I have no artistic talent. I always loved writing,

and I always wanted to be a writer, but I also I just wanted

to make I just wanted to be involved in making them, and I

didn't know what edit I didn't know how books got made. I

didn't know about editing. I didn't know about any of that.

But then when I was in high school, it's kind of a weird and

funny story, but I was in high school, and I was a nanny for a

kid, and I was reading him a book one night before he went to

bed, and I was reading this book, and I'm like, God, this is

a great book. It's so beautiful, and the art is so great, and the

story so wonderful. It was Davey's dream. And I don't know

if you've read that, but it's a beyond workbook. And so I was

like, 15, and I read that book, and I'm like, tears in my eyes,

like, God, this book is so amazing. And I flipped to the

back to the copyright page, and I'm like, that's weird. The

publishing company is in Oregon. It's in Hillsboro, this weird

little town that's so strange. And it turned out that the owner

of the publishing company was friends with the mom of the kid

I babysat with, like they knew each other. And she was like,

Well, you know, maybe someday I'll introduce you. And I was

like, Oh, that'd be great. So I had in my mind, someday maybe

I'd work for this weird little publishing company in Hillsboro.

Like, why not? I don't know anything about publishing, and I

want to do kids books. So I went off to college, and I studied

children's lit as best I could at Brown and learned all this

stuff. And then when I was graduating, I remember this

weird book that I'd read and the fact that this company was in

Hillsboro, and so I sent them a letter, probably a piece of

paper, because there was no email at the time saying, Hi,

I'm about to graduate from college, and I would love to

come do a summer internship and just do whatever you need. And

I'm going to then go be a snowboard instructor. That was

my plan after college was to be a snowboard instructor, so I'll

come for the summer, and I'll see how I like publishing. And

they're like, yes, come read our slush pile for $5 an hour.

That's fine, you know, whatever minimum wage. And so I came to

beyond words the summer after I graduated, and I just fell in

love with it. I was like, Oh, you're actually making books.

And there was, like, five of us, and we were in a garage, and

there was dogs, and it was very casual, and they pretty quickly

realized that I loved books and was pretty good at what I did.

And then it was they just kept trying to hire me all through

the summer. And so by the end of the summer, they were like, What

job do you want? And I was like, I don't know. I'd like editing.

I don't know. I just.

Sort of like picked a job, and then they gave it to me, and

then I didn't become a snowboarding instructor, and I

just kind of dove in, and I didn't know what I was doing.

They didn't really know what they were doing, as you know,

much as they do now, and we just kind of figured it out. And then

I wanted to do kids books. And so that was kind of always what

I was moving towards with the company, just trying to get them

to do kids books. So yeah, that's how I got my start. 30

years ago.

You did that effortlessly cool. Like, oh, you really want me to

do this? Okay, I guess? Oh, yeah, no, I did that like, three

times. I tried to leave several times, and every time they're

like, What do you want to do? I'm like, oh, okay, I guess I

could start a children's department. Like, I just, like,

would ask for things that were ridiculous. Like, I'm like, oh,

they'll leave me alone now. And then they'd be like, Okay, sure.

And then I'm like, Oh, crap. Now I have to do it all right. Now I

have to run a children actually do it, and then I have to stay.

And so yeah, I just kept staying. And now here I am, 30

years later, still staying. So yeah, what kind of relationship

have you had with adult books? We know that you love children's

books, but have you ever cared about them at all? Or no, not

really.

I occasionally will read a great adult book and I'm like, Oh

yeah, adult books, they're great, but more often, I'm like,

Oh, they're so long, and there's so many of them are bad and self

indulgent,

I don't know, and I, when I was started epi on words, I didn't

do very many kids books, so I had to edit adult books, and I

had to publicize them. And it really crushed all my love of

adult books right out of me, like, I just, I realized I just

didn't really like it. Like, I don't like to just edit like,

that's not what I like to do. I really just like kids books, all

things to do with kids books, everything to do with kids

books, and not really anything to do with adult books. So, you

know, they're okay. I like them okay. I read them sometimes, you

know? But yeah, they're not, they're not my passion at all. I

would not switch from kids books to adult books. I would rather

be like a garbage man, a snowbird instructor, yeah, for

sure, a snowboard instructor definitely. You're like, Okay,

well, I put that on hiatus, and now I'm back because I can't do

kids anymore. Be a snowboard instructor for sure, definitely,

even though I'd be the oldest one.

Yeah, that would give you a lot of street cred, though, I

think. All right. Next question,

what other roles did you explore as you built your publishing

career, and why did you end up choosing editorial? Oh, yeah, I

explored every freaking role there is. So, yeah. So when I

started at beyond words, I think my first job, as I told you, I

read the slush pile, and then I think the first opening they had

was, like, maybe copy editing for a while.

Beginning I, like, randomly, just started right into editing.

And then they needed a publicist, and so then the

publicist and I learned everything about publicity for

like, two years. I did that, and then I tried to leave again, and

then I came back and I came back and I did sales and marketing,

like you, with Richard for a couple of years. I did that. And

so I learned all about book club sales and foreign rights and

like, everything to do with sales and marketing. I was the

secretary for a while. Like, I quit and came back the desk

and answer the phones for like, six months. Like it was a while

I did literally every single job there, at which, at the time, I

didn't think it was a good plan, like, I didn't really feel like

it was the best plan. But now, in retrospect, having done every

single job for a pretty significant amount of time, I

feel like I have a really good foundation, like, as an editor,

I understand, like, okay, it's one thing to edit a book, but

then you have to sell it, and you have to market it, and you

have to design it, like, you have to do all these other

things. And I have a a really strong appreciation for every

piece of the collaboration that goes into making a book. And I

feel like it makes me a better editor. Like, I'm a better

editor because, like, now I sell books to publishing houses, you

know, as, like, a acquisitions editor, and I know exactly what

they're looking for all the people in the room, like, that

person wants it to be a strong story, and that person wants it

to have good foreign rights possibilities, and that, like, I

get all those pieces. So, yeah, so that was really good

background for me. And then I went and taught it at PSU for 13

years, and I was about to ask about that, I was like, that

must have really helped in your teaching role, to have a

perspective on every part of the process. I think it's kind of

rare for editors, because most editors come from larger houses,

and even people who come from smaller houses, like usually

smaller houses, don't do all the things that, beyond words, does.

They don't have, like, a really vibrant foreign rights

department, for example, or special sales, or catalog sales,

or any of that. So yeah, I feel like I could go in and teach as

an editor in a way that not very many editors can. So yeah, it

was super helpful. It's still super helpful. I'm very grateful

for all the experience I got. And Richard.

And Cindy were fantastic mentors, like they taught me

everything. They were not selfish with their knowledge at

all. And so I was able to learn a lot. And I was with, I mean,

we went everywhere together. So, like learning, you know, just as

their sidekick, kind of for a long time. So it was great,

awesome.

Well, what do you think the most significant changes in the

industry have been since you started? And do you view these

changes as improvements?

I'm sure it's a little bit of a mixed bag. Good question. Well,

it's interesting, because I feel like the entire time I've been

in publishing, which has been since 1991

everybody is like the sky is falling. The sky is falling like

everyone has been saying, books are dying. Publishing is dead.

This is the death knells of publishing. And yet here we are,

30 years later, and I still am working full time, and most

people I know who want to be in publishing are still in

publishing. And so it's interesting. So it's changed a

lot. Like, when I started in 91 there were a lot of small

independent publishing companies. Like, beyond words

was a small, tiny, little independent publishing company.

And there were a lot of those. Like, everybody's like, Hey, I'm

going to start a publishing company. Why not? And so there

were tons of those. And then, as like, when I got into them, they

were all just getting started. And then over the next 10 years,

they got bigger and bigger and bigger, and then they all kind

of collapsed. We went through the sort of like terrifying

bankruptcy time period when I really actually thought

everything was going to go belly up. But then now they've all

sort of gotten bought by larger publishing companies, which also

I was like, Okay, it's over. They're just going to get

subsumed, but they're all still going. And some of the

publishers that I work for that started out as small houses like

tricycle got subsumed, and now they're gone. But other small

publishing houses that I work for, like Sasquatch and graphic

arts, are not gone. Like they're stronger than ever, because they

got bought by a house that lets them have a lot of independence,

so they have the financial backing of a larger house, but

they still have all their creative independence. They

still keep all their people. And so I feel like it's changed.

Publishing has changed, but it hasn't changed like we're still

doing books, and especially in kids books, I don't, honestly, I

don't really know what's going on in adult books, because I

don't really pay attention, but kids books are still doing

really well. Like, as long as I've worked in kids books,

they've been the best selling part of publishing they, like,

they just don't have the same ups and downs and struggles that

adult books seem to have. And so I feel like it's all been pretty

steady. So yeah, I feel like a lot has changed, but a lot has

not changed. Like what I do day to day is still almost exactly

the same. I just don't do it with paper and scissors anymore.

We do it all digitally. Now. It's all fancy, but it's all

working with artists and authors like I do the exact same thing

that I did when I was 22

so and do you mostly work with Pacific Northwest companies, or

do you kind of do it all over the country? Um, I would say

mostly Pacific Northwest companies. They're all national

presses, but they're located here, yeah, for the most part,

I've had some clients in other parts of I mean, I would say

from Seattle down to the Bay Area, that's most of my clients

are. But I've definitely had clients in other parts of the

country. This area is my sweet spot, because I feel like I'm

from here. I was raised here, so where I grew up, so I have a

very solid foundation of sort of what would make good books about

this place that I'm from. So I feel

not only excited about doing books about that part of my

life, but also I like working with people who are from here.

And I just, I like, I like contributing to having presses

that are doing niche or things like that. Like, I like helping

keeping those presses alive by helping them find really good

books. Because if all those regional presses were to

disappear, I'd be really sad, because when people in New York

are the only people making books for us out here it, I don't

think it works. Yeah,

like being a part of that culture of like, let's keep it,

let's, let's keep our knowledge base and our talent base.

There's so many talented kids book authors and illustrators in

the northwest. It's insane. It's really insane. Yeah, so, yeah,

yeah. All right. Now, do you have a preference between

working with bigger publishers or smaller publishers? Smaller?

Yes, I probably do. I mean, you know, until you get to the like,

there's only two people and they're both crazy. But I do

like my sweet spot, yeah, I like, I mean, I would say I like

sort of medium to smaller size publishers. I like publishers

that have a real niche and a real focus to their list, sure,

and I like.

Companies that are small enough that I know my team really well,

and we get to bond and be friends most of most of my

clients I've worked with for like, 20 years now, and, like, I

consider them friends, and, you know, I work at home, so they're

a big part of my community. So yeah, I like, I think at a lot

of the bigger houses, people change a lot, and I don't really

like that, yeah. So I definitely liked working with larger

houses, but I have a strong preference for smaller and

richer presses. Yeah. Okay,

so probably should have mentioned this up top, but

you've got the Oregon Book Award coming up for you were nominated

for

children's nonfiction, more girls who rock the world with

beyond words publishing atria Simon and she, no, it's Simon

pulse, right? It's Aladdin. My bad. You will hit it. Well, I

don't know what's going I don't what is, what is book?

How do I book?

So congratulations. Thank you. That was the hard work of my

publicity and marketing team. Thank you very much. So yes, and

would you there's a lot of characters from history in the

book that you're using to empower young women today and

so, and I know that you've have other causes that you're pretty

passionate about. So how do you think that publishing can play a

part in furthering causes that you are interested in, and how

do you think they can improve when it comes to issues such as

representation in children's book and ya, fabulous. Okay,

those are two separate questions.

One, thank you for your analytical mind. This is

helping. There are two separate questions, and I'll answer them

separately. So the first question is like, Why? Why

books? Like, how do books further my passions? So my

belief is that books are this magical place where we as humans

put all of our knowledge about everything. Like, yes, we make

movies and music and other artistic endeavors, but books

are where we, like, the repository of all the smart,

wonderful things that we know. So for me, especially with kids

books, books are how we pass that on to the next generation.

Like, books are the way, like they're it. So to me, to me,

they're super powerful talisman. They're like magic. Like kids

books are like magic. So I think anything important that I want

kids to know about, anything like should be in a book format,

because it's lasting. Like magazines get thrown away.

Movies, they come and they go. Some people watch them. Some

people don't. You know, all of a lot of the art mediums we have

are very ephemeral, but books are solid, and they sit on your

bookshelf forever. Like I will give my books to my children,

they will give them to their children. That chunk of

knowledge that's in that book will get passed on to

generations after generations. That's just how books are. I

have books from the 1800s on my bookshelf for right now. So I

feel like books are a wonderful way for me, whatever my passion

is, whether I'm writing it like I feel very unique in that if

I'm excited about a topic or I feel really passionate about it,

either I can write it or I can find someone else to write it

and I can sell it to a publisher. So it doesn't matter

to me if it's my book or someone else's book, putting that

whatever that information is, whether it's about, for me, like

girls, more girls who rock the world and girls who rock the

world, that, to me, was about. There are all these stories

about women that kids don't know about because history has been

controlled by white men. So there's all these stories, and

the only way to find them is to dig into these old, boring books

that no kid wants to read. I'll read them, and I'll write it in

a way that it's really interesting, and then you can

learn all about Harriet Tubman and Cleopatra and all these

people that Lena, yeah, exactly, and current people like. So that

that was the motivation for me, is that, you know, yes, these

this, this information exists out there, but it's not always

in a way that kids are going to enjoy it. So that was with more

girls who rock the world. The new book that I have coming out

in the fall, which is called enough is enough, and it's all

about the gun issue. Same thing. It's like, I'm so frustrated

about the state of our country with regards to guns, like, it's

insane to me. And I volunteer for Moms Demand Action, and I

know all these things about, like, what can we do, and what's

not happening and what's standing in the way, and How can

kids get involved? And I know that because I'm reading the New

York Times in The Washington Post and The Wall Street Journal

and all these like, boring adult magazines and newspapers that no

kid is going to read. And then I'm like, telling my kids, hey,

read this, learn this thing. They're they it's too boring.

It's written for grown ups. So my job is like, Okay, I'm going

to take all this knowledge that's out there for adults

that's super interesting, and it's going to help, and I'm

going to reframe it in a way for kids, and then I'm going to put

it in a book so that it's a solid thing that they can hold

on to and pass around and.

Keep and learn from and so, yeah, I feel like kids books are

really powerful, and I feel like a lot of people really

underestimate the power of those books. So, yeah, so that was the

one question Do you want me to answer? The one about diversity

in kids books and how we can I ask a quick question about the

question you just answered first. So what were some books

that you read as a kid that you know really fight like lit that

passion inside you? Okay, so I loved biographies when I was a

kid. My mom bought me this series of biographies. I can't

remember what they're called, but they're comic everybody

knows them. Who's has them. They're white and they have, I

can't remember what they're called, but anyway, the the

design is all the same. They're white, and they have like a

cartoon of, like, whoever the biography, like Edison on the

cover, and then read this sort of comically illustrated story.

I, when I had kids, went and bought them all again. I'm like,

Oh, I'm gonna share them with my kid. They're so bad, like,

there's,

I mean, but I loved them as a kid, because that's all there

was so I loved biographies, any book with a strong girl heroine,

like my favorite was Wrinkle in Time. But I pretty much loved

all books that had like a kick ass girl heroine. So for me,

when I started in publishing, I was very passionate about

giving, doing more books for girls, especially, and just, you

know, getting all of those, like getting more biographies of

girls. When I started in 91 it wasn't a thing, and there was

not a lot of books for girls. And now there are, and it's

great, and I was a part of that, but there wasn't before. And

that's kind of where we're at right now. We're at that same

fork in the road where it's like, Oh, guess what? There are

no books. You know, there are not enough books for kids who

are not white and kids who are not, you know, the majority

culture. And so the same thing that happened there was, like,

this revolution in publishing when I started about doing more

books for girls. Is happening right now, again, in publishing,

and it's, to me, it's really exciting to see, because it's

terrible, like, it's absolutely awful, the dearth of children's

books for for everybody, you know, just of different types of

people. So I'm seeing it behind the scenes now, like I'm seeing

a lot of wonderful things coming out. Like all the kids books I'm

buying now are all by these fantastic black writers that

have never been published before, and that are, you know,

finally getting a shot. And there's tons of them, and it's

fantastic. And then behind the scenes, every publisher I work

with is like, yeah, we need more writers of color. You need to be

going out and looking for that, and we need to be hiring people

on stuff like everybody's talking about it. It is a huge

issue. Like, that's pretty much all we're doing now behind the

scenes. And to see that quick reaction, I mean, you know, it's

quick because it's shameful, it's really bad. So I am quick

for publishing, right?

Yeah, publishing. Well, I mean, honestly, I have to say, I'm

pretty proud that within a couple seasons, like you're

seeing a pretty big flood in kids books of really talented

writers. And yes, it took a long time and a lot of shame and a

campaign to get here, but people reacted really quickly. And I

feel like, really honestly, like people are like, Oh, this is

terrible. Why? Why have we let this happen? Like we thank you

for pointing it out. Let's do something about it. And so I'm,

you know, I feel like it was bad what happened, but I do feel

like the response has been really good. And I feel like the

flood of talent that has been unleashed is so inspiring, like,

amazing. I get all chills thinking about all these great

people. So I'm all excited about it. Yeah, well, there's, like,

there's a lot of authors I've read. They've had like one book

before, and I'm like, oh, this person is so great. And now they

have like, 10 books because, like, everybody wants, you know,

they're like, oh, Jason Alexander is the most amazing

thing since sliced bread. He is. He was writing a long time ago,

and nobody was, you know, he had a couple books now he's, you

know, everywhere. So all you know, Renee Watson, there's all

these people who are now finally getting the attention that they

really deserve. So it's great. I'm excited to be around to see

it happen. So, yeah, so that's what I have to say about

diversity in kids books needs to happen. It needs to happen

behind the scenes too. So I think that's the next step. Is

for more people of color to go into publishing, which is not a

high paying career field, as you know. So what do we do to

attract more people into that so that we can have more decision

makers who are not white women like us. So that's kind of the

next step. So, yep, yep, yep.

So do you have anything else that you want to put out into

podcast land, just any words of wisdom, maybe for people who

want to get into publishing or just something you want to talk

about.

Yeah, let me think about that. It's hard because publishing, I

feel like, is a pretty a lot of people go, Oh, I want to be an

editor. I want to go into publishing. And you're like, Oh,

you cute little snowflake. You have

I tell people. I'm like, it's like saying I want to be a

famous actress.

Like, it's really competitive. There's a lot of nerdy book

people like us whose big dream it is to go be in publishing,

and people think it's really easy, and it's not like, you

know, we're all well trained and we have a lot of experience, and

there's not that many jobs that we're all fighting for. And

that's, that is what it is like, it's way more competitive than

people think. So you I feel like, what's good is it, it cuts

out the people who are not really passionate about it.

Like, you have to really love books to put up with the shit,

like you just do

if you're one of those people where you really love books, and

that's really all you want to do that I'm going to say, stick

with it, because you're the ones that will make it, and you're

the ones we want. And then I will say it's as good as you

think. Like, I love my job. And I feel like, you know, not

everybody in publishing loves their job, but there's a lot of

really, really wonderful people and a lot of really fun things

that we get to do. And I pretty much love my job every day.

Like, not all of it all the time, but every day, there's

something in my job where I'm like, Oh, that was just great.

So I feel like

it's good to be hopeful about it. I'm pretty hopeful and

optimistic about publishing. Like, I'm probably more

optimistic about it now than I was 10 years ago. Like, I feel

like it's going really well. There's lots of great books

coming out, and there's lots of good things happening in

publishing. So I would say, have hope. Don't give up. So, okay,

positive, optimistic, kids book, person. I love it. I love it.

Somebody's got to be

Yeah? Find a lot of that in adult books. Let me tell you,

No, that's why I stay away from all of those. Yeah. Doubt this.

Get away from me.

Poetry, poetry, people for sure. Oh yeah, there's a lot of

cynicism.

I would be sinist. I would be cynical if I was a poet as well.

Well,

it's their job. Yeah, it kind of is. That's true, yep. So,

you know, other than rooting for you for the Oregon Book Award,

I appreciate your What are you talking to say that you don't

know that? I will say I've read one of the books that I'm up

against is one of my favorite picture books of all time. And

so I'm like, oh, that happened last time I was nominated, one

of my favorite picture books was also up against me and I I beat

it. So, Oh, see, it might happen. It could happen. But,

yeah, let's stay positive. I'm gonna be like, one of those

Macklemore situations where you get up there and you're like, I

shouldn't have won this.

No, I won't do that. No, but

I probably didn't. Yeah, I don't know if all Yeah, who knows?

So, so other than that, are there things that you would like

to plug your website, social media, books, upcoming books?

Yeah, you can check out my website. It's Michelle R

mccann.com

that's what 2l Michelle R mccann.com so you can learn

everything you could ever possibly want to know about my

editing or my writing, or all the weird things that I do, it's

all there

other than that. Yeah, I've got the girls who rock the world

series, the Enough is enough. Gun book coming out. I have a

couple more books that I think are on the verge of being sold,

that I won't tell you about, but more books are happening that

I'm writing, which is great. Yeah, no, I think, yeah. Just

read, go read kids books. Kids book are great, like, they're

just great. So don't, don't be hating on the kids books. Go. Go

read it. Go read a few. So yeah,

there are still some haters out there. They're like, kids books.

Oh, that's for dummies. I'm like, really, have you read any

lately? Come on, you don't know what you're talking about. So,

yeah, loosen up. You only live once right

and you're wrong. You're just wrong.

If you don't like that, you're wrong. I've read adult books and

kids books and so I can talk about it, but if you haven't

read the kids books, you don't know what you're talking about.

So anyway, yeah, read some kids books, all right. Well,

Michelle, thank you for taking the time out of your Friday

evening to come and talk with us. Thank you. Thank you for

having me. That was really fun. All right. Well, we'll catch you

later then. All right, good to talk to you guys. Okay, bye,

bye.

So Michelle was talking about being a nanny. Yes, I want you

to tell that story.

Oh no, this

is one of my favorite stories. So, yes, I was a nanny when I

was about, like 22 in Seattle. I was also a barista at the same

time, so I didn't like, I did them both part time, that

hustle. Yeah, that's right. You know, when you're 22 and you're

like, I'm gonna change the world, and then, like, you can't

get another job, apart from working at a coffee shop and

watching a kid. So but anyway, I've never been there. I was

there, except I was a substitute teacher. Yeah, you know what I'm

talking about. Anyway. So, yeah, this kid was, I think she was,

like, two. I.

And she was adorable, but she was like, kind of precocious in

the way where it was, like, kind of annoying at certain points.

And I remember one time she thinks she was really smart. She

probably, like, gotcha. Probably, yeah, yeah, anyway,

but yeah, we were out walking around the neighborhood one

night, and she saw a dumpster, and she said, What's that? And I

said, Oh, that's where the garbage goes. And she looks at

me and she goes, get in the dumpster. Crim. And I was like,

Well, I never and, no, actually, I was like, That was incredibly

clever. You're going to be a very funny person. Well, I

do declare i The Beauregard

anyway, but yeah, kudos to her. I have not seen her since then,

so she's wait. So that's when I was so that was like 18 years

ago, so she's like shit. She's like 20 now, so I hope she's

cool. I don't know anything about her, but my God, I know

it's weird to think about, yeah, so probably speaking in a

different language, she probably is. She's still about,

where are they, I don't know.

Are they on Twitter?

Some of them are Snapchat, right? Really, I think they're

on Snapchat. I don't know. I think it is. Well, I've heard

about this thing called tick tock, which I think is like

Vine, but it's like Vine music, but you put it on things. Yeah,

right.

That's right, that's right. Oh, no idea. Oh, no,

don't worry, I won't tell Okay, thank you.

Anyway, I'm just a girl,

yeah? So that's my story. I'm really happy that you could

share that story with everyone. I'm really happy to it's a great

story, like, I share it with as many people as I possibly can,

because it's so good. As she was saying that I was

just like, I mean, she was in a good flow. Oh, thank you. Yeah,

yeah. I mean, a WP was fun, yeah. Oh, tell me more about

AWP. I mean, other than the like,

theoretical dance party, I won, I was there tweeting from the

hybrid pub Scout Twitter account. Follow us at hybrid pub

scout. Yes, please. Do I make a lot of jokes. She does, and

she's really good at jokes. Thank you. I feel like I'm

really good at jokes. She is. Yeah. I mean, I laugh at my own

jokes. I laugh at them too, so they got to be good. Yeah. I

posted a very funny video on my personal Twitter account, and

curtain was the only one who liked it. And I was really

surprised.

I'll put it on the hybrid pub Scout one. We'll see if other

people like it too. I'm gonna put it on every platform. Yeah,

you should, yeah, yeah. Maybe we'll start a Tiktok account.

Just

it was a six second video. Well, that's perfect, yeah? I mean,

it's for Joni Mitchell fans, Joni Mitchell and fans of The

Hobbit. Yeah, and if you're not a Joni Mitchell fan. Please

unsubscribe. Oh, anyway, come on, that's like, male

chauvinist.

Like, I feel like Joni Mitchell is, like, Yoko Ono Part Two, to

male chauvinist she really is, which is, like, it's like, who's

a woman I can like first, who I can hate for a stupid reason,

from the 760s and 70s. Joni Mitchell, yes, that's right.

It's not because she's a woman. She's Canadian.

I just don't like, I don't like high pitched voices. I just

don't like women's voices. Yeah, that's right. One of my friends

called me her Skeletor, which is very mean, but she does have

very sharp cheeks. She has very sharp cheeks, but it's kind of

funny. It's enviable. Honestly, I always wanted cheekbones,

yeah, no, me too. She's Yeah, she looks great. I mean, we got

those. We got those round like, yeah, I got those, like, Pollock

cheeks, and I got the Irish cheeks. Yeah, we're screwed,

yeah, pretty much. We'll never look like Skeletor. No, not at

this rate.

We were ruined by the 90s. It's true. Oh my god, I just

remember, like, there was a People magazine with a picture

of like, Heather Locklear, huh? And, oh, who was it? It's

probably Cindy Crawford. And then the headline was like, why

are all our teenagers anorexic? And

I'm like, Mom, what's anorexic? She just looks at me like

now this is happening.

Oh, my God.

I Oh, my God. I told you about this, right? Is, are there any

other lovers of Ling Ling pot stickers out there? No, I don't

know. I have been eating them since I was 11 years old. I just

realized the other day that I like have been eating Lingling

pot stickers longer than I've known most of my childhood

friends. Yeah? So, wow, that's a real love story. Yeah, that's

that's relevant. Yeah, it is.

I read books sometimes. Yes, you do. That's true. Well, what do

you want to talk about? What we're reading right now? Oh, my

God, that was such a great segue. Thank you so much. I am a

professional podcaster, after all. Well, you know, this is

episode 20. Oh, my god, wow, we're doing great. All right.

You are a professional, yeah? No, I am. At this point, I feel

like that's that's a true the right number? No, I heard it was

25 Oh, it's 20. It's always gonna be five higher than then

we actually are. Yeah, exactly.

Gosh, I'm reading Pachinko. Oh, right. And then I'm reading,

Oh, what am I reading? I don't know. I downloaded a bunch of

romance books that, oh sweet, like mean to read. Okay, I want,

I'm gonna try to write just a really, really fluffy one, just

to because the thriller, this is the thing that happens with me,

is I got into it, and then I made it too complicated, and

then I wrote a lot of it, and then I was like,

Wait a minute. And then it was like,

the that gif of or gif of Sarah Paulson, where she has all of

the math equation. Oh, yeah. Like, that's what I became,

something very like, straightforward, yeah, yeah. For

fun, straightforward, but romantic, yes. Okay, they're the

last

magical kingdoms. Book that Bri wrote, um came out last week.

It's called stone and iron, and it's the last one. Oh, wow,

yeah, so I need to read that. And then she also had one called

House of secrets. Ah, okay, okay, yes, which involves

masquerade balls. Oh, good.

Masquerade Ball.

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if it's like a Eyes Wide Shut thing, oh

yeah, I bet you're right. Yeah, Larry, I think so yeah, she'll

tell me. Yeah, you'll find out, I guess. Yeah,

but yeah, what about you? Well, I'm glad you asked. So I thought

you would

know, yeah, I used to really dread that question, because, as

you know, I was reading like nothing. I'm so proud of you, I

know. And now I've started reading again, which is really

great, and I'm really happy for myself, and I thanks to everyone

who sent me

reading vibes.

I mean, reading vibes, reading vibes.

But anyway, I was actually almost finished with this book

by Alyssa Nutting, called made for love. I think it came out

last year. And I just like, I was like, probably almost

finished with it, and I just realized, like, I don't give a

shit about any of these characters. Look, yeah, so I

just put it on the bookshelf, but I didn't finish it, and I

felt very liberated. I've never been prouder of the

fact that a Virgo, Oh, that's true. Reading a book 50 pages

from the end because she didn't give a shit is like the most

life affirming thing.

I'm super about it. I'm so glad.

Anyway, so then I started, I did also start this particular book

probably about a year or two ago, and it was on my bookshelf,

and then, like, the bookmark was like 60 pages in, and I forgot

all those pages because it's been so long, so I had to go

back and start reading them again. But that's my own fault,

whatever anyway, but it's, I think I've actually mentioned it

on the podcast. You did, yeah, one of our, like, early

episodes, yeah, it's called Fire Sermon by Jamie Quattro. And I

thought you meant made for love. Oh, did mention it? I did

mention it. Yeah, that I never, well, that's true. Also, that's

what happened with that one. But I just didn't finish it, though.

So Jamie quattro, Jamie quattro mentioned this one. Yeah, so I'm

like, in the middle of reading that again, too. And she had,

like, a short story collection they came out, like, in 2013

that I really, really loved. So, and this is a novel that came

out a couple years ago that I also really love so far. So

things are things are looking up, things are going well. So,

yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, I'm kind of the one who's like, less

enthused about reading right now. Oh, really, so, like,

shifting back and forth. Oh, no. I mean, I'm still doing it,

yeah, kind of just like we're, oh, you know what I've been

doing well. And this is, this is a confession moment, okay, so I

quit audible, but you get to keep the books. Oh, and I've had

audible during some dark periods of my life for sure, and I am re

listening to a bunch of self help books. Oh, nice. Okay, what

do you like which ones

I re listened to, the five second rule about Mel Robbins,

okay, which was pretty big for a while. It's basically like you

can get yourself to do anything by counting backwards from five.

Oh, he wrote a whole book about that. It's a woman. Oh, a lady.

She's got one of those

gender neutral names. Oh, yeah. That's why I thought I just a

man. Okay, very like you can tell that.

She refused to do second takes on her audio book, because

she'll start a sentence three times. And I kind of love it. I

think that it's, it's very, yeah, she's like, a major

speaker for a lot of speaking gigs, so I think she was

probably, and you can tell she's doing a lot of asides too, which

is one of my favorite things about an audio book, rather than

like a print book is, like, if the person is the author, yeah,

they'll just randomly say stuff. Sometimes, that's funny. I

didn't know that. Yeah, it's great anyway. So that's, that's

me, that's my that's my secret shame. Like, I'm more, you know,

apt to say I've been reading a bunch of sexy books then, like,

Yes, I'm, I'm, I'm compulsively, re listening to SELF

Well, actually, that reminded me of, I guess this was a self help

book. It was popular, probably before your time in the 90s,

called the rules. And it was about like, how to catch a man.

And it was basically about, like, yeah, so, like, basically

the premise book was, I play hard to get like, Don't call him

back. Like, make him work for you. But which is dumb, yeah,

but anyway. But I remember that my mom bought it for me when I

was, like, 17. Why? I don't know. I think she just, like,

knew it was popular. And she was like, Oh, it's a dating book.

You like books. Why don't you read this book, but I just

remember being so insulted when she got it for me, because I was

like, Mom, I'm seven. Like, I don't need to worry about this

shit. Yeah, you're not following the rules. Corinne, I noticed

that's true. I really did not follow the rules. Yeah, yeah,

good, I know. And it all worked out anyway. So whatever. But

those ladies, like, are rich, I'm sure, from that book. So, I

mean, good for them, kudos and all that. But yeah, yeah, a lot

of people need that. I need, I need someone to tell me that

it's all gonna be okay, yeah, as long as I get out of bed in the

morning, that's literally, it's

like, you can't get out of bed in the morning. I couldn't get

out of the bed in the morning because there was a lien on my

house and I had a drinking problem. But then one day, one

night, I was very drunk and saw a video of a rocket ship. I was

like, that's how I'm gonna get out of bed in the morning. And

then I said, 54321, and I got out of bed. That's literally the

origin story of this book. I love it

because that's how, like, if I am to have any epiphanies,

that's how they're going to happen. Yeah? Like, that's fair.

Drunken night I'm watching a rocket go off, and I'm like,

That's it.

That's the one

she's made so much money. Yeah, good for her. I'm sorry. Your

mom thought you were bad at dating. No, I'm sorry. I don't

even think it's that she just watched Oprah all the time. And

I'm sure, like, Oprah talked about it or something. So this

was before her book club started, I think, but I'm sure

she, like, had the authors on or something. So she probably saw

it on there, and was like, maybe, maybe she'll like this.

And then I was like, huh, how dare you? I took everything

personally,

and I'm a teenager. Oh, no one understands. It's true. And I

listened to jewel. That was really everybody listened to

jewel, did they?

Yeah, I had a friend who was super into jewel and like, she's

so bad. Well, she was a she was a ballerina, and she's like, a

professional ballerina. Oh shit. But yeah, we used to dance in

the garage together to foolish James. No, it was, it was some,

like, pseudo Indian music type thing. Oh, like, she was really

into jewel.

And also she was trying to teach me how to do, like, good ballet,

because I did ballet, like, for years and years. Oh, okay, yeah,

she was, she's a professional baller, so I was just like, how

do I put my leg like that?

Okay,

this is fun. Do

you want to learn some choreography off of YouTube with

me? I think it depends on what kind of choreography like, which

artist would it be if, well, you you know, oceanographers, choice

like, oh, whatever music video you can think of that you really

you know what video I always did want to learn the choreography

too. Was cold hearted snake by Paul Abdul. Do you remember that

video that was probably before your time, too? I think that

came up 1990 How old are you in 1990 like, three, four. Yes, I

was three. You were three. You don't remember the story anyway,

it's fine, but it was a very cool video. They were all just,

like, dancing in this, like, big, like, I don't think it was

a warehouse, but it was like a big dance studio, and all the

blinds were drawn, and it was like a really sexy song. And I

just, I don't know, it was probably like, the repressed

Catholic in me thinking, like, Oh, but I learned how to do this

dance when I was, like, 10 or whatever. So anyway, good for

her. It was my favorite, yeah. And by her I mean 10 year old

Korean. That's right, that's right. So, well, yesterday was a

national pet day, yeah? So I took the opportunity to give a

little hat tip to my cat. Well, he's like, Well, he is my cat.

Now you adopt my boyfriend's cat. So.

Is, yeah, my adopted cat, basically, my adopted son,

your large

adult son. Anyway, he's wonderful, and I love him very

much. And I, I don't know well now, you know, we have to post

pictures of, oh, I can do that's no problem on Facebook. On

Facebook, okay, yeah, leave that up to you. I will do that. Yes,

okay, as as the older of the two of us, I feel like the Facebook

responsibility should be mine. Well, it's a better platform for

posting a an ode to Groucho. That's very true. I'll get that.

Yeah, yes, that's, that's what Facebook is for. Yes, right,

right, yeah. And your mom's friends like yelling at each

other. My mom's No, not your mom, but I just mean everybody's

mom's friends, everybody's yelling about, yeah, taking

everything personal, yes, you posted an article, and they're

like, is that about me? Exactly like, Oh, I'm sorry.

No, I just post cute animal videos, which I always

appreciate, yeah, thank you. And then I scream into the void on

Twitter, yeah, right, right, yeah, now into the actual visual

that is going to ruin my life.

So you can find us on SoundCloud, podbean, Apple

podcasts, TuneIn and player FM and various RSS feeds that you

may know about, but I don't listener,

so please go and rate us, review us, but only if you want to give

us five stars. Yeah. Really, yeah, yeah. We don't want to

hear your one star bullshit. Yeah. One star reviews are for

people who are like,

really bad, yeah, people who like, hate rainbows,

people who, I mean, if we were doing this,

then

you could give us a one star. Yeah, I work very hard to make

sure that doesn't Yeah, and you do an excellent job. Thank you.

Anyway, so find us, as we mentioned, on Twitter, at hybrid

pub Scout, on Facebook, at hybrid pub Scout, email me or

Corinne sure email me. Emily at hybrid pub Scout, Comm, Corinne

at hybrid pubs out hybrid pubscout,

you know what it really is, go to our website, sign up for our

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It'll pay off for you someday. It sure will. Thanks for giving

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