In this episode, we're joined by special guest Katy Walton, an expert in learning and development. We explore the crucial topic of how leaders can stand out by effectively developing others. Katy shares invaluable insights on the benefits of investing in your team's growth and practical strategies to overcome common barriers to development.

Key points from this episode:

• The immediate benefits of developing others, including increased engagement and performance
• How developing your team can boost your reputation and career prospects
• Simple strategies to start developing others, even with limited time
• The EPIC framework for diverse development opportunities beyond traditional courses
• The joy and lasting impact of helping others grow in their careers

00:00 Introduction and Topic Overview

02:29 Benefits of Developing Others as a Leader

06:53 Starting Small: Simple Strategies for Development

13:26 Overcoming Common Barriers to Developing Others

19:00 Prioritizing Development and Understanding Individual Motivations

25:37 The EPIC Framework for Development Opportunities

31:32 Key Tips for Leaders to Improve Their Ability to Develop Others

36:37 Closing Remarks and How to Connect with Katy Walton

Download the One Page Summary from Katy

Useful Links

Connect with Katy on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/katy-walton-make-real-progress/

Get in touch with Katy via her website, Make Real Progress: https://makerealprogress.co.uk/

Join The Catalyst Career Club for 50k+ Leaders

Interested in working with us?

Get in touch about career or leadership development, outplacement workshops or recruitment support via the Catalyst Careers website

Mentioned in this episode:

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Hello and welcome to this week's episode.

2

This is an exciting one for us

because for only the second time

3

we have a guest expert with us.

4

So we're going to be covering the topic

of how you can stand out as a leader by

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being someone who can develop others and

to talk about what is a crucial topic.

6

And frankly, it's a little

bit rude that we've taken two

7

years to get around to this.

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We have Katie Walton with us.

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Katie, welcome.

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Thank you so much for joining us.

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Katy: Thank you so much for having us.

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And I've been so excited.

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I can't wait to get going with this one.

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Jacqui: Yeah, I have a feeling this is

one that could be in multiple parts.

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So we'll keep it concise for today.

16

But before we get started, introduce

yourself, tell our listeners a little

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bit about you and how this is a topic

that you're so passionate about.

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Katy: All right, first thing I'm going to

out myself as having been in a learning

19

and development role for 30 years.

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And I know I don't look quite old

enough, but learning and development

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is an absolute passion of mine.

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And in short, I help people, leaders

to grow their impact, grow their people

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and grow their leadership skills.

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And so I'm all about development.

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And it's something that I probably

could talk about for hours.

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So I will limit myself and I will

be succinct and to the point today.

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Jacqui: Yeah.

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And Katie and I first came across

each other a few years ago now online.

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And it was when Katie was asking

for, I don't know if you remember

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this Katie, but you were asking for

guest experts for the group that

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you ran for L and D professionals.

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And I was like I can't talk

about any of those topics, but

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they sound right up my street.

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So am I allowed to join the group,

even though I'm not in house anymore?

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And very kindly you did let me,

and that group was just an amazing

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resource and getting to know you

through it has been fabulous.

37

So I know the value that you will bring.

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So Katie I describe Katie as the L and D

person that I want to be when I grow up.

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So her knowledge is second to none.

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Her approach is incredible.

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And I know that this is going

to be an amazing value episode

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for those of you want to improve

your ability to develop others.

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Kick us off then Katie by talking about

some of the benefits that come when

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a leader is able to develop others.

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What is the immediate benefit that

someone's going to see if they invest

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their energy in getting better at this?

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Katy: I think first of all, it's vitally

important to focus on engagement,

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because we all know that when people

who work with us and work for us are

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more engaged, they're much more likely

to be productive and perform better.

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And there were so many studies out there,

primarily let's focus on Gallup, where

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they talk about the fact that when people

are focused on development, when they

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are able to see their progress, when

they focus on their strengths, they're

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When people are interested in developing

them and helping them in career, they

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are so much more likely to be engaged.

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And I guess the follow on short term

benefit to that is the uplifting

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performance that you're likely to see.

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Because let's face it, when you've got

people in your team who are skilled, who

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are competent, who are confident, they're

much more likely to perform at their best.

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And so you think there's an immediate

benefit for you in having a team that

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are performing well, there's an immediate

benefit for you in having a team who

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are motivated and want to be at work

and are enjoying what they do, and also

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there's an immediate benefit to your

reputation because If people around

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you see you as a leader who's investing

in their team, A, people want to work

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with you and for you, and B, it boosts

your reputation across the business.

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So if you were looking to progress

in your career, maybe move further up

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the ladder, then what you might find

is that people seek you out because

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being able to develop others well,

being focused on your team in that way.

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It just, it pays dividends

to, to your reputation.

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It makes a massive difference in how

you're perceived across the business.

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Pam: I absolutely love that because I

during my own career, that was one of

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the things that I really focused on and

it was about getting that engagement

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from the team and I didn't even mean

to go down the route of creating a

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reputation or anything like that.

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But I become known as somebody

who would develop people.

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So people wanted to come into my team.

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And it's funny hearing you talk

through that because I never

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actually, At the time when I think

about it, realize what I was doing.

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It was just part of me and how I

started my management leadership career.

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I just thought if I bring the people with

me, it's going to be easier, but it's,

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some people find it really difficult.

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Don't need to do that and

communicate with the teams.

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So what would you say?

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If people are listening and they're

thinking, this is something that

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I would love to do, I'd love

to get my team engaged, like

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where can they start with that?

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Katy: Oh, do you know what?

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I'm a massive fan in starting

really simple and think about the

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most simple things that you can do.

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So for example, a lot of the leaders

that I work with, they are fixers,

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they are problem solvers, they want

to solve things or they think they

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have to solve things by themselves.

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So sometimes it could be as

simple as instead of trying

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to fix or solve a problem.

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Asking your team.

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So this is the beginning journey to

being more coach like as a leader, right?

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But just asking the

team, what do you think?

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What's your opinion?

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And going with a question

first before trying to fix it.

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That's a brilliant way.

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It doesn't take you any extra time.

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It's something that you can weave

into pretty much any conversation.

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So if you don't know what to do,

maybe start off with asking some

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questions like that, and also getting

to know your team a little bit more.

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So if you're having monthly one to ones,

instead of being really focused on task

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updates and how people are progressing

against their goals, maybe take a little

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bit of time to ask a few more questions

to find out a little bit more about them.

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What's important to you in your

career, which is a really different

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question from where do you want to be

in five to 10 years time, or finding

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out what are the things that light

them up at work, what energizes them.

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And also talking about their

strengths, what do they really do

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well, because when we're talking

about development, it doesn't have

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to be just on what they're not doing.

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And where they have to improve going back

to Gallup, there's masses of research

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out there that also talks about when

you do something that you're great at.

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So when you build on your strengths and

when you can do that regularly, preferably

116

every day, it makes a huge difference

to engagement and motivation as well.

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Yeah, going back to your

point, just start small.

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That's my biggest advice.

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Just think about, can I ask a question

instead of giving some advice or

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solving something for somebody?

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Pam: Yeah, that's brilliant because

that it is just start really small

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and keep it really simple, isn't it?

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And build on it.

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And I suppose it's almost not being afraid

to, have those conversations with your

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team as well and find out more about them.

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It's not just about, like

their personal lives.

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It's like you say, what makes

them tick and it does really

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make a difference, doesn't it?

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Katy: Absolutely.

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And it sounds like it's something

that you probably did instinctively,

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when you were saying that it was

almost like a byproduct that you were

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getting the engagement and motivation.

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So I'm guessing you probably did

exactly those kinds of things, right?

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Ask those questions, be

interested in other people.

135

Pam: Yeah, I think, and it's

funny that you say that because

136

For me, it was always about how

can I help these people progress?

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Because I was so ambitious in my career

and I wanted leaders and managers that

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would support me in my, in my career.

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So I wanted to do the same for others.

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And I thought if I help other people,

then, other people will help me

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as I progress through my career.

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And it did actually work out quite well.

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And a lot of the people.

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That I helped progress in, in their early

days, I'm still in touch with and still

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come and work with me every few years when

they're ready for that next promotion.

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So it does when you think about

your team as how can I help them

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progress in their career rather than

thinking, I don't want to help them

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to develop because what I feel it's

like, how can I really help them?

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to, how can I help them to

advance their careers too?

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So it's not just like what's in it for

me and driving the business forward.

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It's about that real kind of

thinking of the person as well.

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Katy: I think you're

absolutely spot on with that.

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And there's an activity that I do quite

often in leadership development programs,

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which is getting people to think about

the best manager they ever worked for.

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And I can't tell you every single time

we have that kind of conversation.

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There is always a reference to the best

manager I ever worked for developed me,

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they inspired me, they helped me to grow,

they helped me to do more than I thought I

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was capable of, they built my confidence.

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So it's amazing.

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Some of these people go back.

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Right.

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20, 30 years thinking about this

one conversation that their manager

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had that kind of lit their spark

and the best managers, they're

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doing this quite consistently.

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And to your point, Pam, often it's not

because there's something in it for them.

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That's the nice byproduct.

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It's because they've got this feel

that by investing in other people, It's

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going to help them in their career.

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So when you're shifting from being more

focused on yourself to more focused

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on other people, you just get all

these amazing things that happen as

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a result by like a happy byproduct.

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Jacqui: So I honestly, there's so many

strands I could pull from all of the stuff

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that you've just shared, but I want to

go back to something that you said quite

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early on when you were talking there.

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Of this thing around the pressure on

managers to have the answer and to be

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a fixer because I see this a lot where

that can be a real barrier to people

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developing others because they feel

like it's part of their role to be

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the most knowledgeable one to have the

answers and it almost feels like I'm

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not doing my job properly if I'm asking

my team to give their own answers.

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So I see that a lot from that

side, that can get in the way.

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And it's something that I've quite

often challenged leaders and managers

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on when we've been running development

sessions of, okay, but how do you

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grow when they recognize those things

of being challenged, of being given

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opportunities that are maybe slightly

outside of their comfort zone or

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being asked to come up with ideas.

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And then you can see the penny drop.

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of, oh, actually I'm not necessarily

helping them when I give all the answers

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and maybe that isn't always my role.

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So what are some of the

other barriers that you see?

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Because that exercise of getting

people to think about who's the

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best manager they've ever had really

pinpoints some of the things that

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people want and need from a manager.

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What are the things that get

in the way of managers being

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like that more consistently?

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Katy: Okay.

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There's quite a few , but one of the

most common ones that comes up is, I

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don't have time, because let's face

it, everybody is having to do more

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and more with less and less hours.

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There's more and more pressure.

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So that, I think that's

probably the number one barrier

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that people come up with.

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I don't have time to develop my team.

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I don't have time because

I've got so much on my plate.

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So I guess that links back to what I was

saying earlier about Thinking about taking

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it one step at a time because it really

doesn't take much more time at all to ask

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a question rather than give an answer.

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So it might take, I don't know,

30 seconds more, a minute more

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maybe, but it really doesn't have

to take a huge amount of time.

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And thinking about how you can weave

in development on an ongoing basis.

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So I've got one manager.

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Who I remember really clearly,

and this was probably about,

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oh, about 20 years ago.

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So I'd been delivering training as

part of my role for some time, but I

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needed to shift into more of a learning

and development business partner.

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And I didn't, I didn't

know what I didn't know.

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About it.

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And so one of the things that

he started to do was blind copy

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me into some of the emails.

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So when he was consulting with

directors in the business, he would

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then blind copy me into the email so

I could see the tone that he used.

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I could see the questions

that he was asking.

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So that literally took

him no extra time at all.

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And I learned so much through that.

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I learned about the questions that the

directors was, were going to be asking.

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I learned about how we were

responding to difficult situations

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and difficult challenges.

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And what that meant was when

we got together for our one to

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ones, he would then ask me, so

what have you learned from those?

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And what are you going

to be taking on board?

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And what might you be doing differently?

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And it was absolute gold dust.

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And it's a great example of

how things don't need to take

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a huge amount of time at all.

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Pam: I think that's a

brilliant way, isn't it?

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Because it's also showing

that level of trust in you.

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So you build that relationship

with that manager.

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But I do think as well, there's always

that element of fear, isn't there?

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When you develop your people too

much, or if you give them too much

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information and things like that.

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And I see a lot of that come through

when I'm working with coaching clients

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and they're, there's, they're always

wondering like, where is that fine line?

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How much do I develop my people?

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How much information do I give them?

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And what's your view around that?

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Katy: Oh, that's a really good one.

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And it links into two things really.

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What if I develop them

and then they leave?

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And what if I develop them

and they know more than me?

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So if I go to that first one, what if

I develop them and then they leave?

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I think, and I might be misquoting,

I think it's a Richard Branson quote.

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When he talks about the fact that

where you could develop them and

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then they leave, or you could not

develop them, and then they stay.

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Isn't that an interesting thing?

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What would you rather have?

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Would you rather have confident,

capable people who can take

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on more of the workload, who

can smash it out of the park?

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Or would you rather have people who

are solely reliant on you and you

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have to, you have all of that on

your shoulders where you're having

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to try and fix things, solve things.

260

And the more that you feel like your team

aren't competent and capable, the more

261

you feel like it's on your shoulders.

262

So first of all, it is it's a natural

progression that people might leave.

263

So you do have to anticipate that

if you develop people, they may well

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leave, but also They may well love

doing what they're doing and working

265

with you so much that they stay and

they make your life so much easier.

266

And they also might leave

and then come back in another

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guise, in another capacity.

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Yes, there always is that danger that they

might leave, but I think it's far worse

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if you don't develop them and they stay.

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And then, they're not

performing and they're not

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engaged and all the rest of it.

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And that other point was around If you

develop them and then they know more

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than you, I would really encourage

people to just reframe that a little bit.

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Because if our, if we're allowing

our ego to get in the way and we

275

are trying to keep people small

because of our own egos, you are not

276

doing yourself any favors really.

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And you're certainly not

doing other people any favors.

278

So I wonder if you could just flip it

around a bit and reframe it and think,

279

wouldn't it be amazing if I have a team

of people who do know more than me?

280

Because a they could inspire me more to

grow and develop in different ways and

281

be isn't that what we're aiming for his

leaders to create people in our teams.

282

who are very capable of holding the fort.

283

It means you can go on holiday

and you can switch off.

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It means you can have your

weekends and your evenings free.

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It frees up more of your time to do

other important stuff like building

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your connections across the business or,

developing yourself in a different way.

287

So I think what I'd really like people

to take away is if they've got some of

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these barriers like time or anything else.

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It's just think about how they

could reframe it a little bit and

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think a little bit differently.

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Jacqui: I love that element of.

292

If somebody can do your

job better than you.

293

And it was reminding me of, I remember

years ago, recruiting somebody and

294

the words I said when I recruited

her was in six months, she'll be

295

able to do my job better than I can.

296

And I'd said this to a former

colleague and she looked at me

297

and was like I don't think so.

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And I was like, no, she will.

299

And.

300

That for me was the absolute best thing.

301

And years later funnily enough, I

was in touch with her yesterday.

302

She's currently in the process

of applying for a new role.

303

And, the stuff that she's gone on

to do in the time, since we worked

304

together is absolutely phenomenal.

305

And she is incredible.

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And that made my life so much easier.

307

So as a manager, knowing That I had

somebody on my team that could deputize

308

for me that could step up that would

take the initiative that would do things

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that I maybe not in the same way that

I would do them but do things to the

310

same standard that I would do them.

311

The pressure that.

312

Talk off my shoulders was immense.

313

So yeah, absolutely.

314

Second, that.

315

So are there any other barriers then

that you see come up for people?

316

Katy: Oh yes.

317

Okay.

318

So first one is thinking about what kind

of, what, Takes priority for people's

319

development because let me just talk about

the performance development plan, right?

320

So most people in organizations, they have

some form of personal development plan.

321

What I used to see an awful lot was,

oh, my God, it's that time of year.

322

Got to fill out a

performance development plan.

323

You get out your paperwork and

it's a bit of a tick box exercise.

324

What do we put on the plan?

325

To keep the learning and development

team or the HR team happy.

326

And it's really not about that.

327

So a couple of tips, first of all,

about how you might prioritize and

328

what you might put on the plan.

329

My biggest advice is don't go for more

than three things, three things maximum.

330

It's much better to do one or two

things, three max really well,

331

that makes a difference, that makes

progress for people, than to have

332

this shopping list, because you know

what it's like, as soon as you have

333

a shopping list of something, it just

becomes overwhelming for everybody.

334

And rather than filling up a personal

development plan with just loads of little

335

bits and pieces, chunk it up a little bit,

make it a little bit juicy, and then think

336

about all of the different development

options that might be available to

337

help somebody to progress towards that.

338

What I normally share with managers

is maybe as a priority, think

339

about what do they need right now

to be competent in their role?

340

So if they're not fully competent.

341

What are the one or maybe two things

that could really help them to get

342

that level of confidence that you

need them to have for right now.

343

And then start getting a little bit

juicy because that on its own might

344

be a little bit dull for people.

345

So it's almost like a next layer.

346

And the next layer might be what are their

strengths that they could build on or any

347

particular watchouts like blind spots.

348

So something that might really

hold them back in their career.

349

So an example of that might be if

somebody's in a very technical role,

350

and they would love to become a

manager in the future, maybe one of

351

their watchouts is that they get head

down, they get deep into the technical

352

stuff and they forget to communicate

with people, they forget to have

353

conversations and build relationships.

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So that might really hold them back

from becoming a manager in the future.

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if they've got that technical proficiency,

but they've not yet learned how to engage

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with people, inspire them, motivate them.

357

And the kind of third level

is thinking about the stretch

358

and challenge for people.

359

And the amount of stretch and challenge

that people might want would look very

360

different because there are some people

who are always going to want to just

361

come in, do their job and go home.

362

And so stretch and challenge for

someone like that might be creating a

363

new process or speeding up a system,

whereas Stretch and Challenge for

364

somebody that's got really big ambitions

about having a much more senior role

365

in future, their Stretch and Challenge

might look entirely different.

366

It might be leading a huge project,

or it might be really stepping outside

367

of their comfort zone and doing

something that's very different.

368

And that's why it's important

to use your one to ones.

369

If you don't have someone specific

development conversations.

370

Use your one to ones to really

understand what kind of career

371

aspirations do your people have?

372

Are they really quite happy to

come and do their job, go home?

373

Do they want a broader, richer experience?

374

Do they want to adventure

around and use their skillset in

375

different areas of the business?

376

Or do they really want to think about

how they could have more impact?

377

So the stretching challenge

would look really different.

378

Pam: Yeah, and it's an interesting

point as well because I remember

379

when I was fairly early in my senior

management career that we went to a

380

meeting and the kind of the theme of

the meeting was, development and how

381

we can develop and motivate our people.

382

And the conversation turned to we've got

some people that are not ambitious, some

383

people that don't want to go anywhere,

they've got no kinds of career aspirations

384

and, they're just going to stay in that

job for the next 10 years or whatever.

385

And it was like, What do

we do with these people?

386

And I was like what do

you want to do with them?

387

Cause at that point I was still learning

and I was thinking maybe they're

388

going to come up with some new ways to

motivate them or something like that.

389

And it was almost maybe we might

even manage them out because

390

they're not ambitious and they're

not grown with the business.

391

And I was like, Oh, okay.

392

That's I'm sure that's not what you do

as a leader or a manager, and that was

393

my first insight into kind of what could

I actually do to help motivate these

394

people because not everybody wants to

be a leader or a manager not everybody

395

wants to climb the rank, sometimes

people will get into a management role

396

and be happy to stay where they are.

397

And I know when I was looking after a

team of management level people, it was

398

very much, there was a couple of them

that did definitely want to progress.

399

So we created a plan to do that

and the others that were just quite

400

happy and what they were in and

doing the jobs that they were doing.

401

It was like what else can you do?

402

What else would you like to do?

403

Some of them didn't want

to do anything else.

404

They were really happy and really

motivated, but it was just that check in.

405

And then with the others, it was very

much about what projects could they

406

get involved in and things like that.

407

And all of a sudden, obviously it takes a

while, doesn't it, to get to know people,

408

but that team became a really strong team.

409

Everybody was motivated in different

ways and it was respected, that was

410

their kind of form of motivation

and what they enjoyed doing.

411

And I think, And what I learned from that

is everybody is individual, aren't they?

412

And as a leader, it's your job

to understand those individuals.

413

And like you said, what makes them

tick, but also what motivates them.

414

.

Katy: Exactly.

415

And let's face it.

416

If we're asking those kinds of

questions, if we're getting to know

417

our team members, it also validates

that as a career choice, it is

418

perfectly okay to stay where you are.

419

What you can't do though,

is not develop at all.

420

Because if you think about the pace

of change nowadays, if you do no

421

development whatsoever, Is your role

going to be secure in maybe three

422

years, four years, five years time?

423

It's just, but it's just a

different kind of development.

424

So your development might just

be keeping up to speed with new

425

technology, new processes, which is

very different, but let's face it.

426

We need people in any organization.

427

We need people who want to come

in and do their job and go home.

428

This is what gives the organization

stability, because if everybody Wanting

429

to progress and grow and develop,

and they were all highly ambitious.

430

You're going to have a problem

because there's only going to be

431

a limited amount of opportunity.

432

But I think you're spot on when you're

talking about what motivates them.

433

If you disregard people who want to

come and do their job, go home, you're

434

missing such a valuable opportunity

because you want to keep that stability.

435

But for most people, if you do exactly the

same all of the time, it just doesn't give

436

you that personal sense of fulfillment.

437

So I don't know if either of you are

familiar with the book, The Progress

438

Principle by, oh, Teresa Amibile

and Stephen Kramer, talks about how

439

motivating it is for people to focus

on the progress that they've made is,

440

according to their research, it was

one of the most motivational things.

441

if you're making progress.

442

So that opportunity to chat with

somebody in your team and just to say

443

over this last six months, look at

all of these things that you've done.

444

Look at how you've developed.

445

Look at how you've strengthened your

confidence, built your skillset in this.

446

It's so motivational.

447

And I'm going to keep banging the

drum about the motivation factor.

448

So Dan Pink, talks about intrinsic

motivation, so the kinds of things

449

that get us doing stuff willingly.

450

And the three key areas he focused on

was, one, having autonomy and choice two

451

mastery, which is all about development.

452

And three was having a sense of purpose.

453

So as a leader, if you can give people

choice, if you can help them understand

454

why they're doing what they're

doing, and then help them develop

455

alongside, that really is the key to

keep people motivated and engaged.

456

Jacqui: Yeah I love Dan Pink's work

and I haven't come across the progress

457

principle, but that very much aligns with

some of the stuff that Pam and I talk

458

about quite regularly of the importance

of noticing strengths and progress.

459

And that is so powerful and

it's so underutilized, I

460

think as a tool by managers.

461

So I know you've got one more.

462

barrier.

463

And then we're going to look at some

of the practical solutions that people

464

can start to think about if they are

struggling with any of these barriers.

465

So what's the final barrier that

you're going to share with us?

466

Katy: The final barrier, and I know, a

little bit about this as well, Jackie,

467

the final barrier is that managers often

say, I don't know how to develop people.

468

So when I was just talking about

performance development plans, the other

469

thing that I see is a PDP littered with

Go on this course, go on that course.

470

And it grinds my gears, right?

471

So let's think outside of work.

472

If you needed to learn how to retile

a bathroom, what would you do?

473

So Pam, what would you do if you had

to learn how to retile a bathroom?

474

How would you learn?

475

Pam: So that's a good question because

I've done that and I actually went on to

476

YouTube and watched a load of tutorials.

477

Yeah,

478

Katy: absolutely.

479

And Jackie, what about you?

480

Jacqui: Do you know what?

481

I'm more of that view of I'd probably

start off by giving it a go and then

482

get stuck and then go to YouTube

for the bit I got stuck with.

483

Katy: Alrighty.

484

So here's what I noticed outside

of work, people will do stuff

485

like Google, YouTube, chat to EPT.

486

They'll ask somebody, they'll watch

somebody, they'll give it a go.

487

And then the second you get inside any

organization, all of a sudden it defaults

488

to go on a course, go on a course.

489

And you're like, isn't that interesting?

490

Outside work.

491

Would you have ever thought I

would go on a course to learn

492

how to retell my bathroom?

493

Pam: Do you know it is true, but I think

Just as you said that then, what kind of

494

came up for me there was that in work,

I think sometimes it's that real fear of

495

making a mistake and not getting it right.

496

So to try and to make a mistake

could result in getting it wrong.

497

And I think sometimes, especially

for new leaders and managers,

498

that can be a challenge.

499

A real fear factor.

500

And then as you develop through your

career, it might get a bit easier, but

501

still you've still got that constant

thought of I'm a manager or leader, I

502

need to be seen to do everything right.

503

I need to learn it.

504

And then I think there's

a lot less of that.

505

We'll just give it a try

and see what happens.

506

because of that fear factor.

507

Katy: Yeah, I think

you're absolutely right.

508

A lot of people come on my leadership

development programs, even if they've

509

been leaders for 20 years, because

they almost want validation that what

510

they're doing is right, the stuff

that they're doing instinctively.

511

So when we're thinking about how we can

develop, so if managers think, I don't

512

know how to develop my team, I just

encourage them to think about Epic.

513

Epic development, and epic stands for

experiences, people, information, and

514

courses, and you'll see that courses

is last very deliberately, because

515

what I also know is that the way people

generally tend to learn best and most.

516

is through experience.

517

So Pam, when you were saying there

about, trial and error, making mistakes,

518

although people might not want to make the

mistakes, it's how we often learn best.

519

And often, if you think about the

impact of learning experiences through a

520

manager's career, It's often having the

experience and doing things wrong and

521

realizing what happens and thinking about

how to do it differently next time round.

522

It's often that kind of stuff

where the biggest shifts happen.

523

Think experiences first.

524

What experiences can you give people?

525

If somebody needs to, in your team,

needs to brush up their presentation

526

skills, instead of going, go on a

course, you could maybe say have an

527

experience and that could be give a

presentation at the next team meeting.

528

Because believe me, if you're doing it

in a safe space, but if you're trying

529

to step out of your comfort zone, do

something new, you're going to really

530

focus on learning the skills because

you're not going to perhaps want to

531

look daft in front of your colleagues.

532

So I think experiences first, then people.

533

How can you learn

through different people?

534

And that could be coaching,

mentoring, feedback, it could be

535

shadowing somebody who's an expert

and watching them in action.

536

So again, coming back to that

example of presentation skills,

537

perhaps picking somebody who

you know presents really well.

538

Watching them in action and then

asking them some questions afterwards.

539

Information could be books, it could

be podcasts, it could be articles.

540

So that's really about going

online, maybe seeking out some

541

information that might help.

542

So for presentation skills, it might

be look at a list of 10 tips to

543

improve your presentation skills.

544

And then courses.

545

There's always going to be courses

that could help you on pretty

546

much anything, so you could go

on a presentation skills course.

547

But what I'd encourage managers to do

before they think about courses for

548

people is to think about all of the other

stuff that they could do to develop.

549

So that way, on your PDP, you could

just have this one thing, presentation

550

skills, and you can have a whole

raft of things that could help people

551

to develop and to make progress.

552

Jacqui: I love the epic framework

and it's one that I've shared because

553

I first learned that from you.

554

So is that your own framework

that you've created?

555

Yeah.

556

It's absolute genius.

557

And I have shared that.

558

So now at least I know that I'm

attributing it correctly because

559

it just makes it so straightforward

for people to be a bit more

560

creative about the different ways.

561

And I love the emphasis on courses

being last and that illustration

562

of how would you go about tiling

your bathroom is just a great one.

563

I think for people to be able to apply

for themselves and developing others.

564

So before we.

565

Wrap up.

566

What other kind of, you shared

huge numbers already of really

567

practical tips and insights

that people can take on board.

568

What would be some of your key points

that you would want leaders and managers

569

listening to take away if they're going to

improve their ability to develop others.

570

Katy: Alrighty, I want to sneak something

in before the tips, actually, and that's

571

just thinking about the joy of developing

others, Jodo, because, it struck me the

572

other day I was training some managers on

becoming mentors across the business, and

573

one of the first questions I asked them

is, why did you sign up to this program?

574

And this one guy just looked

at me and went, why wouldn't I?

575

Because the satisfaction that you can

get from it, it's not just the immediate

576

benefits that you're seeing yourself

in the team, but creating a legacy,

577

because you will have such an impact on

people's lives when you're developing

578

them, when you're interested in them.

579

And that really lights up

a spark for so many people.

580

And Pam, when you were saying about

it earlier, how you felt when you had

581

that impact on people, you, you impact.

582

on your team.

583

It's just going to last forever.

584

It's going to be something

that they always remember.

585

And Jackie, when you were saying about

your team member who then went on to

586

achieve these amazing things, is it,

isn't it a great feeling to have?

587

So yeah, before I go into the

tips, just wanted to talk about

588

JoDo and the spark that you have.

589

So one tip that I can suggest is

just role model development yourself.

590

So I see a lot of managers when they

step into their role for the first time.

591

thinking that they can't

be vulnerable at all.

592

They can't show any weakness.

593

They have to have it all together.

594

They have to know what they're doing.

595

So actually demonstrating to

your team, I'm still learning.

596

This is what I'm focused on developing

at the moment, sharing what it is that

597

you're learning and how you're learning

it and what difference it makes.

598

It inspires people because you're

always on the stage really as a manager,

599

people are looking to you for cues and

ideas and tips about how to behave.

600

So if you're role modeling, developing

yourself, it opens the door.

601

It really encourages

people to do the same.

602

Second one would be to ask for feedback,

but don't use the word feedback.

603

So ask for tips.

604

So imagine that you've just

been running a team meeting.

605

You could.

606

chat to somebody afterwards and say, Oh,

Sarah I would love just to have a couple

607

of tips from you about how we could run

the meeting a little bit differently.

608

And so that way, what you're demonstrating

is that you're open to feedback.

609

You're open to taking on

board ideas and suggestions.

610

So it gets your team thinking as well,

especially if they know that you're likely

611

to ask lots of these kinds of questions.

612

But I think more importantly, it

opens the door for you to be able

613

to give feedback to your team.

614

So once you've role modeled and

demonstrated it They can tell you these

615

things, and you've got to try and adapt

and change, then it gives you more

616

permission to give people feedback.

617

Which obviously is another

way to develop them, right?

618

And two more tips.

619

One is sharing what

strengths you see in them.

620

So I talked earlier about

developing your strengths, being

621

a really powerful motivator.

622

Often, one of the problems is people

don't see their own strengths because it's

623

something that they do all of the time.

624

It's something that

comes naturally to them.

625

And I remember the first time a manager

said to me, you've got such a strength

626

in building relationships with people.

627

And I just remember looking at

him thinking, What do you mean?

628

This is, I'm just talking to people.

629

This is what everybody does.

630

And he was like, no,

not everybody does that.

631

So he was giving me real specifics.

632

This is what you do.

633

This is what I've seen you do.

634

This is the impact that

I've seen it create.

635

And I think you could do it even more.

636

in this situation.

637

So really helping me to understand

where he saw my strengths helped me to

638

start thinking about them as strengths

and start developing them more.

639

Because if we focus on developing our

strengths, we go further and we go

640

faster than trying to always plug gaps.

641

And the last one the last

tip is around being specific.

642

Because I see a lot of managers

say, think throw away lines.

643

Like you need to be more commercial.

644

You need to have more impact.

645

You need to be more strategic.

646

And I'm like, what does that even mean?

647

Cause it could mean so

many different things.

648

To different people.

649

So trying to be really granular,

like the example that I

650

just gave, what did you see?

651

What was the impact?

652

What are the consequences?

653

Because just say for that

being more commercial, somebody

654

might understand that as well.

655

I need to be able to read balance sheets.

656

I need to think about profit and loss.

657

And actually you as a

manager might just mean.

658

Can you just understand how

the business makes money?

659

Because some of the decisions

you're making are probably not as

660

commercially minded as they could be.

661

So yeah, a few final

tips to leave you with.

662

Pam: That's brilliant.

663

I'm just sitting here listening to those

tips thinking I wish that we worked

664

together back when I was in my corporate

career, because I was always Looking for,

665

what's the next thing that we can do?

666

And I was always getting

told to calm down.

667

We don't need to do that.

668

This is how we do things.

669

And just listening to you today, I'm

like, wow, you've really inspired me.

670

And I'm even thinking, did

I make the wrong thing?

671

Did I make the wrong choice

coming out of corporate?

672

Maybe I should go back and

manage those teams again.

673

But I've really enjoyed listening to you.

674

To your tips, and it's been

great just hearing your

675

perspective on things as well.

676

Jacqui: So Katie, you just said, as we

knew you would incredible value during

677

the course of this podcast for people

that are listening and that want to

678

get in touch with you, follow your

content maybe come to you for support

679

for their teams or organizations, how

can people find you and get in touch?

680

Katy: Okay.

681

I think two key ways, first of all,

LinkedIn, I'm on LinkedIn pretty

682

regularly, get in touch, connect.

683

I'm very happy to connect in

and chat all things development.

684

And secondly, hop over to my website.

685

It's make real progress.

686

co.

687

uk but I'm pretty sure you'll

have that in the show notes.

688

Jacqui: Yep, we will put the links

in the show notes and yeah, I cannot

689

emphasize enough how valuable it will

be if you go and give Katie a follow.

690

The stuff you share is incredible.

691

I've just loved getting to, to read it.

692

know more about you over the last few

years and share some of the content.

693

And as I say, the EPIC framework for

me has been one that I have shared

694

with pride on many an occasion

since I first heard it from you.

695

So thank you as ever for listening.

696

If this episode has been helpful or

if you know somebody that is perhaps

697

finding it challenging or needs to

Some simple ways to be able to develop

698

others more effectively than please

do share this episode with them.

699

And as ever, please do rate and

review on whatever podcast platform

700

you are listening to us on.

701

And we were back next

week with another episode.