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Jean Paul (Part 1) on Sandpit funding & impact-focussed research
Episode 19 • 13th March 2024 • Changing Academic Life • Geraldine Fitzpatrick
00:00:00 00:57:47

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Jean Paul is a Senior Scientist at the Medical University of Innsbruck in Austria. Jean discusses her involvement in a unique research funding process called a sandpit or an ideas factory. Having then taken on the leadership of the project, she provides insights into the challenges and benefits of transdisciplinary research, stakeholder engagement, and arguing for their impact-focused approach. Jean also shares her academic background in social science, health and genomics research work in Australia.

Overview:

[00:29] Introduction

[03:03] Jean's PhD, Post-Doc Journey & Backup Plan

[11:23] From Australia to Austria: Applying for research funding sandpit

[18:00] The Sandpit Experience

[27:47] Getting Funded, Becoming a Team

[32:08] Leading the Project and Ongoing Project Support

[40:20] Transdisciplinary Research

[48:29] Wrapping up Part 1

[49:36] More on Jean's PhD and Post Doc Projects

[56:40] Final Wrapping Up

[57:47] End

Related links:

Ludwig Boltzmann Institute/Gesellschaft

The sandpit-funded project – The Village Project



This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:

Chartable - https://chartable.com/privacy

Transcripts

Geri:

Welcome to Changing Academic Life.

2

:

I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick, and this is

a podcast series where academics and

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:

others share their stories, provide

ideas, and provoke discussions about what

4

:

we can do individually and collectively

to change academic life for the better.

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:

If you're interested in hearing about

a different model for research funding,

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:

you'll be interested in listening

to this episode with Jean Paul.

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Jean is a senior scientist in

the department of psychiatry,

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psychotherapy psychosomatics and

medical psychology at the medical

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university of Innsbruck in Austria.

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She also happens to be a fellow

Australian, but we'd never met at all.

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And I'm talking to her because

she was recommended by Rafael

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Himmelsbach, as someone who might be

really interesting to talk to about

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building a distributed research team

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.

Jean has a very interesting, mixed academic background.

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, a social scientist, who's

working in the area of health

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and illness and medical systems.

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Applying qualitative research methods in

a domain that doesn't really have a lot

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of experience with qualitative methods

and working in a lot of interdisciplinary,

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mixed disciplinary teams.

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And what's particularly interesting

is Jean's experience in getting

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from Australia to Austria for the

projects that she's working on.

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And that was through a process called

a sandpit or an ideas factory . It's a

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very intensive workshopping process and

this was run by the Ludwig Boltzmann

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Institute or as it's also called in

German, the Ludwig Boltzmann Gesellschaft.

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And at the end of the week, there are

some project teams in the workshop who

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are awarded funding to work together.

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So it's interesting hearing Jean talk

about her sandpit experiences , the

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decision to move to Austria., the

experiences in starting up that project

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and undertaking interdisciplinary

work and using a very different

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co-design approach and so on.

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Jean also talks about her own PhD,

some of the particular projects that

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she worked on and some of her postdoc

projects and in the interest of keeping

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the focus on the funding, I've moved

some of that to the end of the episode.

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So if you're interested in hearing

more about Jean's particular

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background and projects, stay on

and listen for that at the end.

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So enjoy this part one.

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And in part two, we'll come back

and Jean continues with some really

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interesting experiences in actually

leading a project of more senior

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researchers and there will be lots

of practical tips and tricks in that.

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Jean, thank you for joining me.

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Someone recommended you as a

really interesting person to talk

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to about assembling a distributed

team in terms of the process that

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you used and how the teams run.

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Before we get to that, do you

just want to introduce yourself?

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Jean: Yeah sure so um,

A fellow Australian, and

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Geri: By coincidence,

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Jean: there's a few of us around, but

not so many on this part of Austria in

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the west, in Innsbruck, where I'm based.

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but yes, I moved to Austria in 2018.

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Up until then, I was working as

a researcher at the Children's

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Hospital in Melbourne at the Murdoch

Children's Research Institute.

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And I would describe myself as

a social scientist have quite

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a mixed academic background.

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I studied arts and science

in combination at university.

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So I've always been interested in science

and how things work, but maybe also in

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combination with how people experience

health and illness and medical systems

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and so my PhD in Australia was looking

at communication between doctors who

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specialize in genetics and their patients.

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I then couple of postdocs in, in

Melbourne and worked on a couple of

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different projects, one about so as a

qualitative researcher, always working

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in these topics to really understand

those complex questions of, you know,

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social representation or understanding

decision making, understanding behavior

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change understanding relationships between

professionals or between families, across

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professionals, across organizations.

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So I ended up sitting in a very

strange position where my research

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group that I was connected with were

cell biologists who were doing genomic

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sequencing and sex chromosome research.

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And I was the one qualitative

researcher who was.

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By themselves sort of in some

way had a lot of networks across

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the research organization.

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Geri: Did you bring in the project grant

to get to that position or did they

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get the grant and advertise for you?

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Because I'm always curious about

those choices or how those postdoc

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positions and projects come about.

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Jean: Yes.

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So for those two positions, they

were both Already funded and people

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knew of me at the Children's Hospital

And poached me I guess My plan

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after my PhD was to have a break

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Geri: Yeah.

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Jean: and write up my papers

and do some traveling.

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But already in the last year of my

PhD, some professors who were in, in

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different departments wanted to employ me.

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And so that plan went out

the window a little bit.

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And yeah, one of the national projects

was money from the government.

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For this pregnancy project and the other

one was from the Victorian government

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originally and then from the Australian

government and I was employed with

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special discretionary funding from

the director of the Murdoch Children's

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Research Institute because my Boss

wanted to have a postdoc to do some of

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this qualitative research, but she didn't

have the capacity to do it herself.

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And so she argued to have

that position created.

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They were both, you know, term positions.

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So for a particular short term,

I think one year, each of them

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were one year with renewing.

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Geri: So you could have still, we

have an interesting, just little

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delay here, don't we, in the thing.

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You could have still chosen

not to do it and to write up

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your papers and go traveling.

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What made you choose to let that plan go?

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Is it, was it something like

you really wanted to do the

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projects or you were worried that

no other job would come along?

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You know, how did that decision process?

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Yes.

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Jean: think in research, you have

to be careful what you say no to.

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And you know, it's a quite a small

community, even though you know, this

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is an international research field.

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Melbourne is.

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a world leader in biomedical research

and also in qualitative research.

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And yeah, the, I've also felt

like research is very difficult

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to stay in as a career.

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And I didn't really know what the

future would hold, how long it would be

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possible to Position that was funded.

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And I would give it my best shot

until I had to make a decision

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if it wasn't working anymore.

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A lot of my colleagues and senior people

around me you know, had missed out on

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funding from our national funding agency,

the NHMRC, over several years and then

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have to make tough decisions if they

move out of research and into private

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industry or retrain somewhere else.

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And my philosophy, I think, has

always been it's a hard world to be

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in as an academic or as a researcher

who's employed with research funding.

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So see how far you can go and if

you have to make that decision

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later on, see how that goes.

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I, before I did my PhD, there was maybe

another one of these decision moments

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where during my studies, I was interested

in becoming a genetic counsellor.

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And that's something that now

in Austria, there is a master's

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program in Innsbruck, actually.

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That's the first German speaking

master's program for this profession.

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These are specialists who work alongside

doctors and nurses and psychologists,

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and their role is really to help provide

Genetic information to families to help

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make decisions on testing or to help

understand test results and adjust to

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a condition that they might have or

they might have it in their pregnancy.

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And that was something that really

appealed to me with my mixed background of

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liking science, but more the human aspect.

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So I did do an honors project,

which in Australia is the fourth

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year of your bachelor degree.

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With a group at the Children's

Hospital who were doing a lot of

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psychosocial research in genetics.

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And they're one of the, back

then, one of the leading groups in

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Australia that were doing this work.

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And I got really interested from

that point in the research aspect,

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which I think in undergraduate

science, you're not really exposed

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to research outside the lab.

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And in my humanities, also not

really doing so much research and

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more just learning and writing

papers and writing essays.

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So that opened the world, I think my

world to applied research with within

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the healthcare system and what kind

of skills I could bring to that area.

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So after doing that honors year

my plans were to start a master's

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program in genetic counseling and I

already knew the director who was.

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It's waiting for me to finish my honours

year to start but my supervisors for my

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honours year suggested that I do a PhD.

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And one of them said that she would be

retiring soon, so it's now or never.

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So I got diverted into doing a

PhD instead, and since then I

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didn't then move back to doing

genetic counselling program, but.

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My backup plan, I guess, which is

something you have to kind of have in,

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in research, has always been that if you

know, funding dries up and if I'm unlucky

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and not successful in getting funding for

my position then I would try and do some

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further studies in social work or genetic

counselling and move back to working

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with people having had that experience in

research, but in a more stable position.

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But so far, I haven't had to do that.

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Geri: Yeah, that's interesting because

Katta, who I just spoke to the last

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podcast episodes I've put out, also

talked about having a backup plan and

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they now have a tenure track position

but until that became clear, yeah,

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started doing some sign language degree

just to, have another backup plan.

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Yeah.

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Interesting.

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And that feels like that still is

a reassurance in a way that you can

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do that and actually you go into it

now with so much more experience.

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I mean, just what you said about the,

how to ask questions about you know, in

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a good ways or how to communicate news.

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Yeah, things that you originally

framed as bad news actually can be

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good news, because it gives a path

forward and all that sort of thing.

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So then how did you end up in Austria?

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Like, how did that project come about?

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Jean: yeah, so I guess that's

also been part of my approach

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to work and work relationships.

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I've done a lot of networking, not

in the kind of you know, traditional

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business sense of networking, but

I've always looked after people who

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needed a small hand with something.

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And.

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Felt that was going to be rewarded

in some way in the future, or just

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know that it's a good thing to do if

you can help someone that you know.

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I was on the student committee and I

think in implementation science, there's

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some word for those people who are a bit

like a connection between other people.

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And, so I would often link people up

when there were new people coming in.

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Even though towards the end, I was

sort of like sitting by myself.

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I was well known across the

organization and made efforts to

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go to different talks and really

interested in what everyone was doing.

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So one of the postdocs who

was a lab scientist met me

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in the coffee line one day.

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And said, and Jean, you're an

interdisciplinary researcher.

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Would you like to work in

Vienna for a couple of years?

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There's some some friend that she had

who she did a postdoc with in France,

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who's now working in Vienna and is

looking for people who are interested in

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interdisciplinary work in mental health.

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And you could apply for

this workshop and then.

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see how it goes.

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And I thought, well, yeah, Europe would

be something that I would be interested

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in doing in my research career.

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Why not?

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And I'm not very good with deadlines

or I'm very good with deadlines.

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The deadline is when

the work happens for me.

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So I sort of put it off a bit.

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In in applying for this this workshop

because it just felt so strange.

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It's not really the way

that research projects and

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positions are usually created.

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So this was through the Ludwig

Boltzmann Gesellschaft in Vienna.

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And they had this concept of

open innovation in science,

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which is still ongoing.

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And they wanted to fund research in

a different way, recognizing that

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traditional methods of research funding

often you know, awards grants to the

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most senior professor in that department

who then gets more grants and once you

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get the success you keep getting it.

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And usually then you're in competition

with the another group that's also

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working on a very similar topic, but

you, it's hard to collaborate across

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groups or across organizations.

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And it's hard for new ideas to come up

because it's usually step by step as the

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professor thinks of something in his path,

in his next direction of his research,

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and usually he's using that on purpose.

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And so the Open Innovation in Science

Centre wanted to use this sandpit approach

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or ideas lab approach to funding research,

where they had quite a lot of money

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from the science ministry in Austria

to fund a couple of research projects.

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And they invited international researchers

who had very different backgrounds

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to apply to this five day workshop.

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And at the end of the workshop, they

would award two research grants.

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The application process itself

was also not traditional.

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You didn't provide a CV.

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Instead you had to answer some questions

about your approach to interdisciplinary

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work, how you would explain your topic

to someone outside your discipline how

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you see your area of research being able

to address the topic of child mental

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health or parental mental illness.

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And yeah, more about your personality

and your approach to work, work styles.

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And then they selected 30 researchers

to, to attend these five days.

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Geri: Just curious, do

you know how many applied?

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Jean: I think it's in their report.

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I'm not sure if the, off the top

of my head, maybe a hundred or so.

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Geri: Right.

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Yep.

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Jean: And yeah, for me, it was

quite an interesting concept and I

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didn't really know what to expect.

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It was a new area having you

know, been working in genetics and

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hospital based research in Australia.

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I in my application, I kind

of drew on some of the.

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themes I talked about with you already

that could apply to mental health in terms

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of stigma and especially Erving Goffman's

theory of face and representation of self.

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I thought those more sociological and

qualitative approaches could be helpful

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in addressing some of the questions

that they had in the workshops.

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And you had to.

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also define how much of your

time you could spend on this

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work if it was successful.

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And for me, I would be

working in a different area.

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So it would be a new job.

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So I put down 100 percent.

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And my boss at the time in

Melbourne when I was selected to,

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to come over here for the workshop

said a good feather in your cap.

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Which I thought was a

funny phrase at the time.

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I don't think she knew

what to expect, nor did I.

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Geri: So did you knew it was defined

as a sandpit type workshop, ideas

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lab workshop, and it was clear

that funding could come out of it.

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For you when you went in, but you didn't

really understand what you were going to.

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It was just

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Jean: No,

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Geri: curiosity.

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Jean: funding, yeah, curiosity and Yeah,

something also to add to your CV that

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you've been able to attend something like

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Geri: Yeah.

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The

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Jean: interesting.

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Yeah, exactly.

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And I mean normally the chance in

Australia, the chance of Having success

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in a funding proposal at the moment.

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I think is below 10 percent

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Geri: Yeah.

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Jean: And that's for those

that are rated the highest.

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So that was my experience of colleagues

around me Trying to apply for funding

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knowing that it's very unlikely to

get funding and especially as a social

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scientist not doing Something you know

sexy that the funders might want you

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know, innovative that's going to really

produce some technology that's marketable

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or, curing cancer or social science

doesn't really have a very high reputation

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I think within general sciences.

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And here, I think there are

some similarities with, I think

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physics, quantum physics is very

attractive to funders and yeah,

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social science still not so much.

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So I didn't really have high

expectations that there would be.

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a funded proposal that I'd be

involved with at the end of it.

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But I thought it would be a good

chance to be involved and have a go.

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And I also planned for a month's

holiday afterwards visiting friends.

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So the five days were quite intense.

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For me, I was just more interested

in the process and not so anxious

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because I wasn't so invested

in needing the funding myself.

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It was an opportunity.

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But other people were very anxious.

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I think there were people who were you

know, this is their topic and this is

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their chance to get a funded project.

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And from the start we were it was a bit

of a social experiment where we were

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put in different groups all the time,

sometimes in pairs, sometimes in groups

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of four and ask different questions.

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and told to, you know, communicate

with that person and think about

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a research topic, a proposal with

that person, present that back and

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always sort of cut short in time

and move to a different place.

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And then we had inputs from scientists

and from practitioners and from people

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with personal experience that were

meant to help us get into the topic and

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think differently and create new ideas.

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And I think around the third day or so,

we were given the chance to consolidate an

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idea that we might have had with a group.

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And,

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um, we

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Geri: that you self selected at that

point, it sounds like the process for the

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first two days was very much about you.

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Getting to talk to as many people as

possible and really try to identify

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where were the connection points.

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And so the third day you could start

to say, Mary, Bill and, you know,

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whoever, we could work together.

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Jean: It was less people

and more the idea.

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There was a kind of core group of us

that had this idea that children whose

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parents have a mental illness are really

missing a social network in modern times.

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And you know, the informal support

and the low threshold neighbor that

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comes over to help out is something

that could really make a difference

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to children in these circumstances.

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And so we had this concept of the

village, which ended up getting funded.

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This idea was then

attractive to a group of us.

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And we were already in some

ways talking at different.

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Across different purposes, but the

core component was really the network

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around the child and how do we include

the child's voice and the child's

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perspective in designing that network

and in strengthening that network rather

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than having adults make decisions on

behalf of children especially in this

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context where Children can be often very

fearful of sharing information because

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they want to protect their family.

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They want to protect their parent

who might have a mental illness

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and they don't know what's safe

and not safe to tell someone.

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And they're often in a situation where

they've been quiet for a long time.

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They might be holding things

together also at school.

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So our project really wanted to

try and get directly to the child

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in a safe and empowering way.

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Also with the parent.

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And so even though there was, we changed

other components of the project across

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the last couple of days, we were able

to come back to that central point.

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And we had a core group of some

health economists, psychologists

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and myself as a social scientist.

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We also had some people

come into the group.

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You were allowed to change

groups over the last days.

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So we had some people come in

and then leave again, not really

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being drawn to the topic or being

drawn to the central concept

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or not really understanding it because

it was also quite vague and for research

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intervention, it wasn't, using CBT,

you know, cognitive behavior therapy

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to do this and then evaluating this.

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We wanted to see how we could

create or strengthen this village.

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And we wanted to do that

together with stakeholders.

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So we wanted to use a co design process.

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which now I think is much more commonly

talked about, but in:

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very early stages of co designing in,

especially in mental health research.

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And so it was a very vague project in

that we didn't have concrete evaluation

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measures because we wanted to design

them also with our stakeholder

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group and we couldn't have a concrete

sample size estimate because that also

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depended on the location and which

hospitals were going to be involved.

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But the belief, I think of the core

group that this was something that

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was going to be helpful and important

and the willingness or desire to

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make positive change on the system.

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Across those researchers, I think

was what was really attractive.

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And that's also what really resonated

with me, given my background in

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wanting to design research that was

relevant, had impact, and wasn't just

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for our own benefit as researchers.

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Geri: Yeah.

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Again, I'm just really struck by

the parallels with a lot of the work

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that we do in our research area.

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Just, in terms of giving

people a voice, the co design,

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:

the participatory processes.

366

:

And I recognize also that coming more

from that medical space in the sense

367

:

that you're dealing with mental

health and then the issues around it.

368

:

It probably was incredibly radical because

you were not complying with any of the

369

:

post positivist sort of paradigm at

all in how people define good research.

370

:

So it seems like you as a team,

as you got together, were quite

371

:

passionate about the idea and the

approach that you wanted to take.

372

:

What did it involve then in the next

couple of days to convince whoever

373

:

it was there a panel that you had to

then present to and, you know, how

374

:

did you present the arguments to them?

375

:

Jean: Yes.

376

:

So there was a group of mentors

who were senior academics in this

377

:

field from different countries and

different aspects of that topic.

378

:

Who had also been invited to support

in the early days the discussions

379

:

and provoke and question so they

would walk around and listen to the

380

:

conversations and maybe provide some

input and then in the presentations

381

:

we would give would give feedback.

382

:

But then they turned into the evaluators.

383

:

So

384

:

I think there was a little bit of

conflict in some way that they had

385

:

their potential own agendas of wanting

to influence groups to pick up one of

386

:

their ideas in some ways maybe as well.

387

:

Geri: Both methods and

research concepts or directions.

388

:

Jean: I mean, I didn't have any

specific experience of that.

389

:

It was just that there was this extra

layer I think of the process where

390

:

we were being mentored by people

who then eventually evaluated us.

391

:

So there was a dual role that they

had, which I think at times was

392

:

complicated for them, but also it was

complicated for some of the researchers

393

:

because some of the researchers did

know some of the mentors as well.

394

:

But for me, I think I was quite naive

also not having Not knowing much about

395

:

the topic, not having researched it

myself, coming in thinking it would be

396

:

an interesting experience to be involved

with and being surrounded by experts who

397

:

were, you know, postdocs in this area for,

you know, in discipline for many years.

398

:

and I think, like you said, that

the research was quite innovative

399

:

for the field in mental health.

400

:

A lot of the participants were

psychologists, and I think psychology has

401

:

a very traditional scientific approach,

402

:

Geri: Yes.

403

:

Jean: sometimes some qualitative

research, but usually as a, as an add on.

404

:

And especially I think in the German

speaking countries, it's quite

405

:

difficult to compete against the

traditional psychological paradigm in

406

:

research if you want to get funding.

407

:

So this was a great opportunity

that we were getting good

408

:

feedback from the mentors that

we could have this much freedom.

409

:

In the research design which was a

luxury, I think, also by the last

410

:

day, so we were working through the

night, you know, until three o'clock

411

:

in the morning, we had to prepare a

five page proposal and a presentation.

412

:

And then on the last day, give a

presentation, our final one just

413

:

before lunch and I think after

breakfast one of our team members,

414

:

Hannah, who's based in Germany and

is a psychologist, she said, well, we

415

:

should have some sect to celebrate.

416

:

So we took a bottle of the sec

from the breakfast buffet and

417

:

went out on the on the patio.

418

:

We were all in a retreat in

a wellness hotel in outside

419

:

Vienna for these five days.

420

:

So we went out onto the patio

and shared this in this sec.

421

:

And I think some of the other

researchers were a bit put

422

:

off that we were so relaxed.

423

:

But her motivation for that

was We want to be a group that

424

:

enjoys each other's company.

425

:

And she, she's, she has quite

a good position herself.

426

:

She was already a professor and I

think she had made the decision after

427

:

experience that she would do research

with people that she enjoyed working

428

:

with and try and avoid doing research

where there's too much conflict.

429

:

And so that was her, you

know, we need to have fun.

430

:

It's a, it's an interesting

project and it's going to be

431

:

tough and there's a lot of risks.

432

:

But we need to have fun together.

433

:

So that's how we started off as well.

434

:

And we gave this final presentation and

then the judges or the mentors became

435

:

judges and went outside to choose

which projects they were going to fund.

436

:

Yeah.

437

:

And they chose two when they came back in

438

:

Geri: of how many were presented, roughly?

439

:

Jean: Yeah, I think maybe five.

440

:

Geri: No,

441

:

Jean: At that point?

442

:

Geri: good.

443

:

Good.

444

:

I mean, if we look at the

traditional sort of acceptance

445

:

rates, as you said that's good.

446

:

And also, it sounds like that process of

having the week, a whole week in this sort

447

:

of pressure cooker, intense situation,

because you used the word intense before

448

:

Working till three o'clock in the morning,

pulling it together, you do, it's really

449

:

an opportunity to get to know people, to

get to know how you might work together,

450

:

who's going to be good at what sort of

aspects and whether you would enjoy it.

451

:

And sometimes we don't get that

experience with other projects

452

:

going through traditional funding

processes until we've got it funded.

453

:

And then we start working together

and we go, why did I ever think

454

:

I could work with this person?

455

:

Yeah, that's an interesting

process in that.

456

:

In that way as well in, in actually

team building and relationship building.

457

:

Jean: yeah, I think that

was a big part of it.

458

:

You could get to know someone quite

quickly in the way that they listen

459

:

to your ideas or not, and the way

that you could connect around a topic.

460

:

And I think that was good in, you

know, kind of choosing people who you

461

:

felt more comfortable working with.

462

:

I mean, we didn't know them beforehand.

463

:

and we didn't have, we hadn't

submitted CV, so we didn't really

464

:

know so much about each other.

465

:

I think some people knew each other

if they were, more specialized in this

466

:

research area, and there were a couple

of them that kind of knew of each other

467

:

or some that had worked together, but

overall, people didn't know each other.

468

:

And so it was really a chance yet

to get to know people in terms

469

:

of their personality as well.

470

:

Geri: Yeah.

471

:

So just, and did they do something in

the first day for ice breaking and.

472

:

Getting to know each other type

exercises before you got into the ideas

473

:

brainstorming and groupings that you did.

474

:

Jean: It was probably all mixed, so it

was probably all focused on an activity

475

:

that was relevant to the topic, but

that was part of the reason for moving

476

:

people in different groups all the time.

477

:

So that everyone had a chance to kind of.

478

:

Get to know each other on one level.

479

:

But we had lunches and dinners together

and breakfasts together and people kind

480

:

of got to know each other, even if they

weren't working in a group in that way.

481

:

And, some groups didn't work.

482

:

There was someone who went out by

themselves and presented a project alone.

483

:

And I mean, I think our group functioned.

484

:

I think we were doing fairly well

over those days, but there were other

485

:

groups that there was, you know,

the ideas couldn't connect with each

486

:

other in that group, so the group

separated and tried to, there was

487

:

sometimes pressure to add more and more

concepts into a design because these

488

:

projects were very generously funded,

so it was 3 million euros each over

489

:

four years and so there was pressure

to keep thinking bigger and bigger.

490

:

And I think we were in some, we were

in some ways pushed a little bit in,

491

:

in making a project bigger than we

would have otherwise, but you know,

492

:

there was still stuff that we said no

to, like, including biomarkers or, you

493

:

know, making it, yeah, it was much more

in the social aspect of our project,

494

:

but there was another one that was

doing a lot of psychometric, a lot of

495

:

yeah, biological measurements and yeah.

496

:

Geri: That sounds like a

really interesting process.

497

:

Yeah.

498

:

I remember when I worked in the UK

back in the early two thousands I

499

:

participated in a sandpit project.

500

:

A Sandpit process there and we ended

up getting a project funded and

501

:

there's some similar experiences

you know, different as well.

502

:

It's a good process, isn't it?

503

:

I wonder how it could scale, do you know,

are they continuing with that process?

504

:

Jean: I think it was a good process

for me and a good process for our team.

505

:

We were funded.

506

:

Geri: Mm.

507

:

Jean: know that everyone had the same

experience and the same reflections.

508

:

And but I think it's.

509

:

Compared to traditional funding

approaches, I think it's very valuable

510

:

because I think the challenges that

have been identified in traditional

511

:

funding methods could really be addressed

in, in a sandpit or in an ideas lab.

512

:

I think what was really valuable with

the Ludwig Boltzmann Gesellschaft

513

:

is they didn't stop at the funding

process and just give us the money.

514

:

They wanted to invest in the experiment

of how do you support this group

515

:

who's been formed in this way.

516

:

And this is where it was quite

different to, I think, at Harvard.

517

:

This is where the Sandpit ideas came

out in Harvard at the medical school

518

:

and they haven't had, they didn't have

any successful teams stay together.

519

:

To finish out the

projects that were funded.

520

:

And so the Ludwig Boltzmann were in

quite close conversation with Harvard

521

:

to understand what was going wrong there

and what they could do differently.

522

:

So they invested not only quite

generously in the projects,

523

:

but also in the infrastructure.

524

:

To support us as researchers and

to support the research project.

525

:

They had a relationship manager program

and relationship manager who was, I

526

:

guess, in one way, a bit like my mentor.

527

:

So I ended up moving to

Austria to lead the project.

528

:

and the rest of the researchers could

stay in their organizations and worked

529

:

on the project for a fractional time

530

:

Geri: can I just pick

up on one point there?

531

:

You just said you, you moved

to Austria to lead the project.

532

:

How did it come about

that you were the leader?

533

:

Jean: Yeah, so the group itself were

already employed, I think, more in stable

534

:

positions and no one had the capacity

to spend 100 percent of the project of

535

:

their time on the project, or even 80%.

536

:

And I think to take on the

principal investigator position,

537

:

you had to be 80 percent or more

of your time on the project.

538

:

So I was the only person in the

team who was available to do that.

539

:

Which was also quite an interesting

position as a qualitative researcher,

540

:

a social scientist, and quite a

lot younger than the rest of the

541

:

group and a non German speaker.

542

:

this big project and move from

Australia to Austria to do that.

543

:

But I guess it could also be that being

Australian gives you a little bit of

544

:

courage in moving around the world.

545

:

And yeah, I mean, I think a lot of

it was also, you know, my personality

546

:

and the way that I saw my work

and to take on that challenge.

547

:

And.

548

:

It took another six months

before we finalized and started

549

:

the project then in 2018.

550

:

And I guess I was still in

a bit of disbelief that it

551

:

was actually going to happen.

552

:

I'd been to Austria a couple of times,

but only to Vienna and around Vienna.

553

:

And yeah, I studied French at

university as well, but I'd

554

:

never spoken a word of German.

555

:

And when I'd been here for the five

days, you know, even the letters, I

556

:

didn't know how to pronounce letters.

557

:

And we didn't know where we

would be based in Austria.

558

:

So that was also another step in that

six months before I moved to have a

559

:

host university selected, and in the end

we chose Innsbruck because the rector

560

:

here is a psychiatrist and we felt that

would be, we would be very well housed

561

:

in a university where mental health

was something they were particularly

562

:

understanding of and and supportive of.

563

:

Geri: Mm When you say we, who was

we, is that you and the rest of the

564

:

team or you and Ludwig Boltzmann?

565

:

Jean: Me and the team, the Ludwig

Boltzmann had universities that ahead of

566

:

the Sandpit had to kind of provide their

intention to be able to host a project.

567

:

Geri: So

568

:

Jean: they were already

primed to be a possible host.

569

:

Another reason we chose Innsbruck

was because of the project trying

570

:

to make some kind of network social

change in the way that organizations

571

:

are communicating with each other,

but also people coming together.

572

:

We thought that a smaller city might

be easier to take some steps forward.

573

:

And if we were in, in Vienna, I think we

would be quite a small project in relation

574

:

to the rest of research that's happening,

especially at the medical university.

575

:

And.

576

:

You know, coming from Australia, where we

have quite a few big cities to a European

577

:

country, where Vienna is the headquarters

and then the other cities are much smaller

578

:

in terms of their capacity to do research.

579

:

I think it works quite well for us

in people being really excited that

580

:

we were here and questioning in some

ways, you know, why would you choose

581

:

Innsbruck and why would you be in Tyrol?

582

:

But in some ways also our stakeholders

became proud that that they had

583

:

this project and that they'd been

successful in some ways too in

584

:

having the opportunity to make some

improvements with research in this area.

585

:

Geri: So there are two threads

I'd love to pick up on.

586

:

One is to go back to the relationship,

that the support that you received

587

:

from the Ludwig Boltzmann Institute

in terms of Ensuring that the team

588

:

functions well and doesn't fall apart

like some of the other experiences.

589

:

And then I want to talk about some

of your leading the project and

590

:

lessons learned from that there.

591

:

But so you said, and again, you

know, I interrupted you there.

592

:

You started to say that part of the

infrastructure support that they

593

:

provided was a relationship manager.

594

:

Can you say more about what the support

was that they provided and how that

595

:

played out and what value it was?

596

:

Jean: Yeah, so this was a person who was a

psychologist working as a project officer

597

:

in the Open Innovation and Science Centre.

598

:

And she was the contact person

for everything to start with.

599

:

So also salary negotiations and moving

over to Austria for me helping me set up.

600

:

She would come to Innsbruck from time to

time and go shopping for furniture with me

601

:

and also acting a little bit like a coach.

602

:

So every week or every fortnight,

having meetings and talking about how

603

:

the project's going, she had quite an

active role helping design the website.

604

:

So there was specific elements

of the project that she was.

605

:

working on more as a researcher as well.

606

:

I think having this lens of trying to

support open innovation in science.

607

:

And I think at some points that was a

bit to use the German word irritating,

608

:

which we don't say in English so much.

609

:

But for some of the team members

we felt that The open innovation in

610

:

science angle was pushing us sometimes

to the limits of what we were capable

611

:

of doing in our research plan.

612

:

But from the open innovation

science center side, they were

613

:

very committed and dedicated to

testing how far open innovation and

614

:

science could go in these projects.

615

:

And so sometimes that was her role

to kind of challenge us and think

616

:

where else can you involve the public?

617

:

How else can you raise awareness of

the topic and what else can be done?

618

:

Which I think in a traditional

project doesn't happen at all.

619

:

That you have someone sort of

from the funding agency, but the

620

:

Ludwig Boltzmann has two roles.

621

:

in being a provider of research or

a doer of research and a funder.

622

:

But usually you don't have

someone encouraging you through,

623

:

throughout the research process

to be doing more and different.

624

:

And at some points that really

did spread us thin and make

625

:

people feel quite challenged.

626

:

I think everyone in the team taking

on this project was taking some kind

627

:

of professional risk in some way.

628

:

Which I think in doing interdisciplinary

research you often are challenged

629

:

in having to let go of the

purity of your own discipline.

630

:

To pick up the value of someone

else's and bring them together.

631

:

And in our project we really saw that

we were doing transdisciplinary research

632

:

rather than interdisciplinary research

633

:

Geri: How do you find that difference?

634

:

Jean: yeah, I don't think it was something

we thought of before so much, but the

635

:

transdisciplinary research is really doing

things together and melding knowledge and

636

:

ideas and conversations, and that means

that at every point you have to have these

637

:

discussions, these clarifications, and

things can be slower, and things can be

638

:

off putting, or you might realize that

there's some misunderstanding because you

639

:

can't take anything for granted and you

have to challenge the assumptions of your,

640

:

of yourself and of other disciplines.

641

:

I think in other

interdisciplinary research.

642

:

You can do your own research and bring

that together with someone else's

643

:

research at some point to put pieces

of the puzzle together, but it's not

644

:

this mix or this melding of thinking

and of approaches at every stage, which

645

:

is, I think, what was a challenge, but

also a real benefit because you learn

646

:

a lot about the other disciplines, but

you have to give up a lot of yourself.

647

:

In believing that what you're

going to produce together is going

648

:

to have a good outcome for the

families and the services here.

649

:

And so I think that was the, you know,

coming back to the ideas lab, that was

650

:

what the central purpose was for us as a

team and us individually in our work, that

651

:

we wanted to do something that was going

to make a difference, which meant that.

652

:

you had to give up something to do that.

653

:

And you know, you could have done much

more traditional research that might

654

:

have more value in a high impact journal.

655

:

That might be easier to explain and have

less criticism from reviewers as soon

656

:

as you start mixing things, then you

have to be very prepared for criticism

657

:

and explanation of why you've done

things in a less traditional approach.

658

:

So I think that was part of the.

659

:

part of the value that we saw

in doing the work like this, but

660

:

also the risk that people took.

661

:

Geri: Were you able to get

publications that people were proud of?

662

:

Jean: Yeah, we're still publishing.

663

:

But we, yeah, I think I think

the publications we have, that's

664

:

one aspect of the output of our

665

:

we felt that there were greater outputs.

666

:

in addition to publications.

667

:

Publications, of course, because

we want to also push against

668

:

traditional research paradigms too.

669

:

We don't want to just make changes

to the non academic community,

670

:

but we also want to influence the

academic community to learn what we

671

:

learned and to be influenced by that.

672

:

And also to push back against

funders and publishers and editors,

673

:

reviewers that what we're trying

to do is valuable research.

674

:

In this particular group of patients or

group of families where there's a parent

675

:

with a mental illness randomized control

trials have rarely been successful.

676

:

And as a social scientist

and a qualitative researcher,

677

:

that makes total sense to me.

678

:

But for my colleagues.

679

:

been involved in those randomized

controlled trials, even the knowledge

680

:

that there is some intervention

or even receiving an information

681

:

sheet about a research project

increased people's outcome scores.

682

:

So both groups, You know,

there was an improvement and

683

:

you'd need such big numbers.

684

:

There's so much stigma for

families in this position, but it's

685

:

really hard to recruit families.

686

:

Most of the research has also focused

on parents with depression or anxiety

687

:

who are better functioning and has not

been able to support families where

688

:

there's a more serious mental illness.

689

:

So we also wanted to try

and include all diagnoses.

690

:

And we made things a bit hard

for ourselves in some way if we

691

:

were wanting to do a high quality

traditional research project, but we

692

:

wanted to try and also make impacts

for families and services here.

693

:

So one example is that recruitment

was done by practitioners.

694

:

As a research team, we could have

gone to the hospital and sat there

695

:

and put up posters and, you know,

encouraged people to come and see us.

696

:

We could also have gone to general

practitioners but we decided to work

697

:

with the Adult Mental Health Services

where the parents are probably most

698

:

vulnerable and the children then are

probably most in need of support.

699

:

That meant that there was more fear

for families because they probably also

700

:

have had bad experiences in the past

with different services and probably

701

:

contact with Child and Youth Welfare.

702

:

But we also gave a lot of control

to the hospitals to make decisions

703

:

about how children could be

identified and how families might

704

:

be recruited into the project.

705

:

And the head of the psychiatry

department here wanted it to be the

706

:

job of the doctors of the psychiatrists

to recruit families rather than

707

:

the social workers or the nurses.

708

:

Because he felt that it was the job

of psychiatrists to ask patients about

709

:

their family and about their general well

being, not just about their symptoms,

710

:

but understanding their social network,

understanding their world, so they

711

:

knew, you know, so as a psychiatrist,

you can treat the patient better.

712

:

Psychiatrists have a very short

amount of time to work with families.

713

:

So that didn't always mean that the

conversation was very in depth and

714

:

they may not have really understood

what the project was about.

715

:

And if we had nurses or social workers,

they had much more time to reach more

716

:

families, to have a higher recruitment.

717

:

But through doing that, we were able

to Have these questions about parenting

718

:

and general well being of Children

or caring responsibilities introduced

719

:

into the electronic medical system

of the hospital here in Innsbruck.

720

:

So every adult who is admitted to

the hospital here is asked if they

721

:

have caring responsibilities and

then is given some guidance of how

722

:

to have those conversations in a

more deep way to have the time.

723

:

And this is something that our

colleagues in Melbourne have been

724

:

trying to get changed for over 20 years.

725

:

Being in a small city and really

helping the community feel a sense of

726

:

ownership of our research I think helped

make a change that hopefully is going

727

:

to be very valuable for doctors in

thinking about who their patients are.

728

:

When we started the doctors, some of the

psychiatrists told us that the project

729

:

wouldn't work because their patients

didn't have children and we know that's

730

:

Internationally, that's not true, but so

why would it be different in Innsbruck?

731

:

And then we had some change over

time where some of the psychiatrists

732

:

said, actually, I think this project

would be really valuable because if

733

:

we start understanding about caring

responsibilities, maybe we can reduce

734

:

the length of stay, inpatient stay for

these adults and helping their recovery.

735

:

Can we also include some assessments

of recovery in the evaluation?

736

:

Geri: so that the the whole approach

of being driven primarily by impact

737

:

and it's still, it's research.

738

:

But not just for the sake of high quality

journal publications and the careful

739

:

thinking about who you involve and how you

involve them sounded really key to that.

740

:

What were some of the challenges

in working with stakeholders

741

:

in this way in a project?

742

:

Yeah.

743

:

Because you talked before about

not having as much control in

744

:

defining what goes forward.

745

:

And that's where we'll

leave it for part one.

746

:

Keep an eye open for our next episode.

747

:

Part two, where.

748

:

Jean will talk a little more about how

they engage with stakeholders as part of

749

:

this very participatory co-design process

and dealt with the challenges there.

750

:

And I think also very interestingly,

she talks about being a younger leader,

751

:

principal investigator of a project and.

752

:

How she worked with and helps

lead a distributed team of

753

:

more senior researchers.

754

:

And this part also includes lots of

very practical tips and tricks about

755

:

how to manage a distributed team, how

to facilitate effective meetings, and

756

:

how to get everyone working together.

757

:

And I'll leave you here now with a

little more detail, if you're interested

758

:

in Jean's research during her PhD

and in her post-doc projects that are

759

:

really interesting around health and

genomics and, qualitative methods and

760

:

working in interdisciplinary teams.

761

:

Jean: I would describe myself

as a social scientist have quite

762

:

a mixed academic background.

763

:

I studied arts and science

in combination at university.

764

:

So I've always been interested in science

and how things work, but maybe also in

765

:

combination with how people experience

health and illness and medical systems

766

:

and so my PhD in Australia was looking

at communication between doctors who

767

:

specialize in genetics and their patients.

768

:

And in this context, it was

children who had a a developmental

769

:

delay without a diagnosis.

770

:

Originally, I was interested

in breaking bad news.

771

:

I thought that was a very interesting

topic in terms of communication,

772

:

in terms of linguistics.

773

:

But I wanted to do some research

that was valuable to the doctors who

774

:

I'd be watching and listening to.

775

:

And so I spent the first year of my

PhD sitting in on clinic appointments

776

:

and really listening to their

Challenges and discovered that bad

777

:

news was not necessarily bad news

in pediatric genetics because often

778

:

families spend a long time looking for

answers to explain the child's delay.

779

:

And really, when you do find a diagnosis,

that's for some people, a relief and

780

:

the end of a journey and the start of.

781

:

Treatment or, you know, can have big

implications for families and what

782

:

was really complicated in terms of

communication was not having answers

783

:

and how you can communicate uncertainty

in that context and especially with new

784

:

technologies always being introduced in

genetics and genomics and at the end of

785

:

the day, parents were wanting to have I

had questions that were very practical.

786

:

What school should my child go to?

787

:

How can I access speech therapy?

788

:

And that wasn't really the area for the

specialist in genetics to be able to help.

789

:

So I discovered that the doctors

really felt, a lot of the time useless

790

:

and it was very hard work for them

explaining complicated information

791

:

to parents that they weren't sure

how helpful it was in the end.

792

:

And so that, that relationship between

parents and doctors and within the family

793

:

unit was really interesting for me.

794

:

Also in relation to stigma and

the way people see themselves

795

:

or the way professions are seen.

796

:

Doctors also discussed that comparing

themselves to other specialists,

797

:

they didn't feel so useful and it

was very difficult for them to see

798

:

what benefit they had on parents

lives or children's lives if they

799

:

were only maybe seeing them one time.

800

:

And compared to orthopedic surgeons

who were fixing broken bones and

801

:

then you can see a child from not

being able to run around to Once the

802

:

cast was off running around again.

803

:

And so that, yeah, those topics are

really interesting to me in terms of

804

:

dealing with professional identity and

for parents dealing with medicalization

805

:

of their child in some cases trying to

be a good parent and just doing what the

806

:

parents, the doctors told them to do.

807

:

But not always really sure exactly why

they needed to have this test done,

808

:

which often didn't give them answers.

809

:

Having meant more mundane concerns.

810

:

Geri: Like the everyday, as you said

just as a brief interject I'm really

811

:

struck by some of the parallels with

work that's gone on in our group from

812

:

different people, like Francisco

Nunes, for example, did a lot of work

813

:

with people with Parkinson's disease.

814

:

And a lot of what you've shared there.

815

:

Some of the things resonate with

what he was finding there in

816

:

observing the Parkinson's patients

in with the clinicians and so on.

817

:

So it's interesting.

818

:

And for him, it was thinking

about how to then translate

819

:

that into technology support.

820

:

But yeah, so go on, Jean.

821

:

Jean: No, I think that's very interesting

and I think there are when I first started

822

:

working in Austria, I, it was quite a

big shift from genetics, where I was

823

:

primarily working as a social scientist.

824

:

How did you get to Austria?

825

:

Like you were doing that

work in Melbourne.

826

:

in Australia.

827

:

Yep.

828

:

Melbourne.

829

:

I then couple of postdocs in, in

Melbourne and worked on a couple of

830

:

different projects, one about so as a

qualitative researcher, always working

831

:

in these topics to really understand

those complex questions of, you know,

832

:

social representation or understanding

decision making, understanding behavior

833

:

change understanding relationships between

professionals or between families, across

834

:

professionals, across organizations.

835

:

One project was looking at

pregnant women and asking questions

836

:

about alcohol consumption.

837

:

In Australia for many years, we've

been collecting information about

838

:

smoking to try and distribute health

services and target them in areas where

839

:

there might be more smoking related.

840

:

Pregnancies or people who've

had been born with mothers who

841

:

were smoking during pregnancy.

842

:

But alcohol is a much more

difficult question to ask about.

843

:

And so the Australian government

commissioned my boss at the time

844

:

to try and do some more qualitative

linguistic research in understanding

845

:

how questions might be asked.

846

:

to get good information for the government

about drinking while pregnant because

847

:

we know that yeah, if you drink a lot

of alcohol while you're pregnant, your

848

:

child will, might end up with fetal

alcohol syndrome, but there's no concrete

849

:

evidence on what level is a safe level.

850

:

So the Australian government has

recommendations that no level is safe.

851

:

But the British health department

still have mixed information that one

852

:

or two glasses a week is okay ish.

853

:

And so health providers in

Australia are giving mixed

854

:

Geri: Hmm.

855

:

Jean: which is also what we found.

856

:

So we did some qualitative research

with focus groups and interviews

857

:

with obstetricians, gynecologists,

pregnant women, midwives in rural,

858

:

regional, remote areas in Australia.

859

:

And at the same time, I was also doing

a project with the Australian Genomics

860

:

Health Alliance which is a research

project to try and understand how we

861

:

can introduce genomic tests, which sort

of more closely follows on from my PhD.

862

:

into mainstream health care services,

knowing that genomics is becoming more and

863

:

more important for many other specialties.

864

:

But people might not have that

specialist knowledge to be able

865

:

to effectively order those tests.

866

:

And so I was doing some literature reviews

and planned some interviews with doctors

867

:

from different specialists to understand

how they might order a genetic test.

868

:

So I ended up sitting in a very

strange position where my research

869

:

group that I was connected with were

cell biologists who were doing genomic

870

:

sequencing and sex chromosome research.

871

:

And I was the one qualitative

researcher who was.

872

:

By themselves sort of in some

way had a lot of networks across

873

:

the research organization.

874

:

Geri: And that's where we got to

in the main body of the podcast

875

:

episode that you just heard.

876

:

So that last piece was just filling in

some of the details of Jean's background.

877

:

Come back for part two.

878

:

You can find the summary

notes, a transcript and related

879

:

links for this podcast on www.

880

:

changingacademiclife.

881

:

com.

882

:

You can also subscribe to

Changing Academic Life on iTunes,

883

:

Spotify and Google Podcasts.

884

:

And you can follow

ChangeAcadLife on Twitter.

885

:

And I'm really hoping that we can

widen the conversation about how

886

:

we can do academia differently.

887

:

And you can contribute to this by rating

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888

:

And if something connected with

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889

:

podcast with your colleagues.

890

:

Together, we can make change happen.

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