Matt Rogers is the Founder and CEO of Significant Coaching & Recruiting, where he advises student-athletes and families, consults with college athletic programs, and speaks on recruiting, leadership, and personal development. Over a coaching career spanning more than 25 years, he has led men’s and women’s college basketball programs, guided teams to NCAA Tournament appearances, earned multiple conference Coach of the Year honors, and helped transition Maryville University from NCAA Division III to Division II. Rogers also spent nearly nine years with NCSA, where he helped more than 4,000 student-athletes across 34 sports earn opportunities to compete at all five collegiate levels. He is the author of the five-star-reviewed book Significant Recruiting: The Playbook for Prospective College Athletes, a step-by-step guide designed to help families navigate the college recruiting process. In addition, he hosts the Significant Coaching with Matt Rogers podcast and writes The Blog of Significance, sharing practical guidance for coaches, parents, and athletes.

On this episode Mike & Matt discuss the significant challenges and emotional complexities associated with the transition from high school to collegiate athletics. With over 25 years of experience, Rogers emphasizes the necessity for aspiring student-athletes to endure the arduous first year, regardless of the institution's prestige, asserting that the emotional and psychological hurdles faced during this period are universally daunting. He advocates for the importance of selecting the appropriate environment and mentors, thereby ensuring that athletes have the requisite support to navigate the inevitable adversities they will encounter. Additionally, the episode delves into the multifaceted roles of coaches, parents, and athletes in the recruitment process, highlighting the need for candid communication and self-awareness among all parties involved. This episode highlights the dynamics of athletic recruitment and the pivotal moments that shape a student-athlete's journey.

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Matt Rogers is the founder and CEO of Significant Coaching and Recruiting, where he advises student athletes and families, consults with college athletic programs, and speaks on recruiting, leadership and personal development over a coaching career spanning more than 25 years.

He has led men's and women's college basketball programs, guided teams to NCAA Tournament appearances, earned multiple Conference Coach of the Year honors, and helped transition Maryville University from NCAA Division III to Division II.

Rogers also spent nine years with NCSA where he helped more than 4,000 student athletes across 34 sports earn opportunities to compete at all five collegiate levels.

He's the author of the Five Star Reviewed Book Significant the Playbook for Prospective College Athletes, a step by step guide designed to help families navigate the college recruiting process.

In addition, he hosts the Significant Coaching with Matt Rogers podcast and writes the blog of Significance sharing practical guidance for coaches, parents and athletes.

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Be sure to have pen and paper by your side as you listen to this episode with Matt Rogers, Founder and CEO of Significant Coaching and Recruiting.

Hello and welcome to the Hoop Heads Podcast.

It's Mike Clensing here without my co host Jason Sule tonight, but I am pleased to be joined by Matt Rogers, the founder and CEO of Significant Coaching and Recruiting, former basketball coach at many different levels, as we're going to find out as we go through our night here on the podcast.

But Matt, welcome to the Hoopets pod.

Mike, thanks so much for having me.

Absolutely thrilled to have you on.

Looking forward to diving into all of the interesting things that you've done in your career in the past and the interesting things that you're doing now.

So off the top, just give us an idea of some of the services and some of the things that you provide through significant coaching and how those things kind of play into the backstory of your career.

Yeah, I'm probably juggling way too many balls right now, so that's, it's a, it's a loaded question.

I'm trying to drop some of these balls, but I it's probably easier to go backwards and then forward, but I right now I'm working with about, about a dozen high school kids across the country from North Carolina to Hawaii, and just helping them with a recruiting journey.

I've I've somehow, and I really enjoy this, but somehow I've kind of turned into a life coach for, for teenagers, especially teenage athletes, and I I love that side of it.

I wish somebody, I wish I would have had more of that influence in high school for myself and, and there would have been somebody that kind of got to guide me through that transition from high school to college.

So number of high school kids I consult with colleges across the country I'm working with just finished building an athletic department for a school out in Oregon, a junior college that's wanted to get into athletics and got rolling with them.

They'll start next next fall.

And I'm doing a lot of coaching and consulting with an athletic department in Washington right now and helping helping develop some young coaches and get them confident going into their year.

And everything is always tied to recruitment.

So it's amazing how many college coaches get a job and they really don't have a plan on how they're going to recruit.

So that's been fun too, coaching young coaches through that and helping them figure out who they are and helping them find their voice.

And then I have my books.

You know, I wrote the book Significant Recruiting because I felt like I was talking to family after family and they didn't even know where to start.

And I felt like I needed to kind of download my brain and get all the 25 years experience I had out and give people a step by step plan.

And I had 11 college coaches and a college president helped me with it and kind of help write, write it with me.

And it was a lot of fun.

So that's kind of where I'm at right now.

It's really cool that you're touching all different aspects of the recruiting side, right?

You're talking to the coaches on one hand, you're talking to the players, you're talking to the schools, you're talking to their families.

All those things which are clearly important pieces, right?

Each one of those pieces has to kind of do their job and do it well and understand the process so that everybody ends up with a good outcome, which is obviously the goal.

The school, the coach wants to bring in the right type of student athlete that's going to perform at their school and not only athletically, but academically.

And then clearly the family and the athlete want to get to the right place with the right fit, so that all the things that go into having a great experience at a school, academics, athletics, the social piece of it, all of that has to fit.

And I think sometimes we get so caught up right in this social media world of people don't always necessarily know what to prioritize.

And even though there's probably more information out there than there's ever been, there's also information overload of, as you said, people have no idea who should I be listening to?

What should I be listening to, what are the things that are important?

And so as we go through our conversation tonight, I'm sure we're going to distill some of that down and talk about some of the advice that you give to the families, to the coaches, to the players to be able to help them to make decisions.

And so we'll get to that part of it.

Let's start kind of with your story as a basketball person.

Go back to when you were a kid.

Tell me about how you got into the game and who were some of the early coaches in your life that had an impact on you.

That when you think back, you're like, I still remember when this coach did that or that became a part of who I was as a coach.

Yeah, my story is probably pretty similar to a lot of.

A lot of guys and gals that got into coaching.

My dad was.

My dad was my coach, and he really.

He was 5 foot, I think 5 foot 4 until his senior high school.

So he was the little guy on the football team, the little guy on the basketball team.

So he never really got to become the player he was as an adult.

He was a really good basketball player as an adult.

Played in men's leagues, traveled, but never got that chance to play in college because of his size.

And I have two older brothers.

They're 12 and 15 years older than me.

So I was the baby, I was the, the mistake, if you want to call that.

You know, I was way after everybody else.

So I had these three men in my life.

And then my sister played college, My sister played college basketball.

And my, My other sister was an athlete too.

So I had all these athletes on.

I was constantly in a gym, you know, mom and dad.

By the time I was born, I was in a gym watching my siblings play.

And I just loved it.

By the time I was seven or eight, I loved to play.

I had a bat or a ball in my hands wherever I went.

But for me, what I loved was putting teams together.

I love seeing the talent and going, why isn't that kid playing with that kid?

And why, why isn't that unit out here doing that?

And I was already thinking like that as an 8, 9, 10 year old.

And that's really what kind of catapulted me into coaching.

And I had.

Because I was the baby.

I had 14 nieces and nephews.

I think 11 of them were born by the time I was 12.

So I was Uncle Matt.

I was a babysitter.

I was their coach.

I coached all their little leagues and T balls and basketball camps.

And so it just, it was, it's in my blood for some reason.

And I, you know, I'm kind of like you.

I can't, I can't stop coaching.

I mean, if I. I remember that Blue chips movie with Nick Nolte at the end after he, he tells his, you know, tells all the things he's been doing, and it walks out of the.

Walks out of the media and he sees this Blacktop court with these kids playing.

He can't help himself.

You know, his, his career just got shut down and he just, he's going to go coach these kids and work with them.

So that's kind of how I am.

I'm kind of like you.

I'm a junkie man.

And I, the more I get to coach, the happier I am.

Yeah, basketball never stops, right?

It's the old Nike slang, right.

I feel like no matter, no matter what form or fashion it takes, I sometimes look back on my days and I'm like, everything I did today is somehow in some way related to basketball.

Like I was telling you before, like today, this is a two camp week for me.

So I get up in the morning, I'm at camp all day, come home, ate dinner, talked to my son about his team.

My daughter's going to play in a tournament in Louisville, and so I'm talking to my wife about that because I can't be there because of camp.

And then here I am jumping on a basketball podcast and at some point I'm going to go to sleep and I'll probably have a dream about basketball when I fall asleep.

So, yeah, I completely, completely understand where you're coming from.

And it's just us hoop junkies are all kind of, I think, cut from the same, from the same cloth.

So tell me a little bit about just you and your decision when you went to college and what you were thinking career wise.

Obviously you kind of had this idea that you kind of fancied yourself a coach or you thought of yourself as a coach with your nieces, nephews, and just everybody that was around you influencing you.

But how solid were you on, hey, that's kind of where I want to end up.

Or what were you thinking as you went into college?

What was your mindset?

I think my dream as a 16, 17 year old is I was going to be a high school teacher, coach high school basketball, and eventually they'd bring the EMTs in to pull me off the court.

You know, I'd do that till I was 70, 80.

My high school coach was a hall of fame coach, really good coach, but not a, not a great relationship guy.

You know, I don't think he had a great relationship with any, any of the guys I played with.

And I really struggled with that.

I wanted to learn how to lead.

I wanted to be the leader.

He was that old school guy.

You know, this is back in the 80s and real early 90s where you could.

Coaches were still getting away with this is how we're going to go do it.

Shut up and go do it, you know, and that, that really hurt my soul.

And I, I was kind of robotic as a high school player.

I didn't, didn't average match.

I was, you know, I was a starting point guard but my job was to bring the ball up the floor and get us into the offense.

And you know, I was told not to shoot, you know, so it was, I was really robotic.

I really never felt like I could be myself, so.

And I grew up in a town of 2,000 people.

You know, if maybe 50% of the kids in my high school went to college, the other 50 worked on the farm or got a blue collar job.

So the idea of playing in college was so far fetched for me.

So I, I applied to all the schools around my area.

I went to, you know, I grew up in Illinois, so Notre Dame, University of Illinois, Wisconsin, Marquette, and I got an engineering degree at Marquette.

And in February I was, I think it was after my last high school game or my second to last high school game.

We got home and this was before cell and the phone rang 9, 9:30 at night.

And I pick up the phone and it's coach Bob Landis from Coe College in Cedar Rapids, Iowa.

And he goes, matt, we heard about you.

We love your size.

We've heard you can really handle the ball.

We need a guy like you.

Would you come visit?

And it just, it blew my brain that there was a coach out there that wanted me.

And so that Marquette idea was out the window because somebody said I could keep playing basketball.

So that's where I went.

And you know, so that was, that was my dream, hanging onto that dream.

And I got the opportunity to wear a college jersey and play a little bit.

I played really poorly and then had some injuries that kind of ended my career.

But that dream was a big deal that Coach Landis gave me that opportunity to go chase it.

It's so funny to hear you share that story just from a standpoint of it's so completely different, right to the way that things go today.

Not that a kid doesn't get a call, quote out of nowhere today, but because so much stuff is social media and people talking and this and AU tournaments and running into and texting and just there's just a million more ways and there's just so much more information out there for kids to be able to have an understanding of where they might be able to play, can they play at all, who might be interested in them.

And then they're always obviously Comparing each other.

Well, this kid's got that.

That kid's got this.

I played against him there, and I'm better or he's better than.

There's just a million different things that can go on.

So it's funny to.

Again, a completely different era where here you are thinking, I'm just going to go to school at Marquette, and then, boom, out of nowhere you get this call and suddenly you're going to go play college basketball.

Yeah.

It just feels like, again, that hearkens back to an era that I'm very familiar with that rings a bell and rings true for me, but yet at the same time completely different from the situation that we all have today, which is what we're going to get into in a few minutes here.

But, yeah, the recruiting process is obviously, again, at that time, even more of an inexact science probably than.

Than it is today.

And so you obviously have then in the idea that once your, Once your career comes to an end, and now, okay, I want to stay.

I want to stay involved in the game.

Right.

And coaching was the way for you to do that.

So just walk me through the first steps that you took once you realized, hey, this is what I want to do.

You had this dream of being a high school teacher, a high school coach.

That's kind of where you envisioned yourself going.

How do you start walking down the basketball coaching path?

What's the first thing or two you do?

Who do you talk to?

What do you remember about those, Those first moments of, of making that your career path?

Yeah, it's.

It's funny, Mike.

I, you know, I look back and I'm kind of, it's, it's really.

I was Cinderella.

I was, I was.

I. I just didn't believe in myself.

I, I was a mediocre high school basketball player.

I was good high school basketball player, but I had mediocre stats.

I was a, you know, hardly a blip of a college player.

And I just assumed when I was 22, who is kind of college coach is going to hire me to be their assistant.

I, I don't have.

It wasn't all conference.

I don't have all these accolades.

I didn't come from Michigan State or, you know, Iowa.

You know, I don't, I don't have all these accolades.

Who's going to hire a guy like me?

So I really.

I was coaching high school baseball throughout the summer after I graduated and coaching my nephew.

And I was like, I guess I'll just do that.

I'll look for a high School, job.

And a couple weeks after I graduated from college, I got an opportunity to go be a residence director at St. Ambrose University down in Iowa at NAI School.

And I was like, okay, at least I'm still in the university.

At least I'm 22.

I can still play pickup games and figure it out from there.

But if they're going to pay me, they're going to take care of my housing and my food, and maybe I'll go talk to the college coach there and see what he thinks, get some advice.

So I take the job.

And I think it was the first day when I moved into my apartment.

I walked over to the gym and found the basketball coach's office and just knocked on his door.

And it was Coach Ray Shovlin, who's another hall of Fame college basketball coach, and raised this, you know, gruff voice.

He goes, come on in.

How can I help you?

I go, well, coach, I'm.

I'm the new residence director.

I'm taking care of the five, five apartment and residence halls.

And, and I was, I played a little bit of college basketball and it's really my dream to coach.

I go, do.

Would you take me on as a volunteer?

You know, do you.

Can I recruit for you?

You know, can I, if nothing else, can I come watch practices when I'm free?

And he goes, matt, I'd love to have you.

And he, you know, he, he made me as the assistant JV coach and got me on the trail recruiting.

And it was so great to see this big, strong, gruff guy and how he treated his players, the love he gave them and the love he gave me and the time he gave me.

And so Coach Ray really changed my life because he basically said, without saying it, you can do this.

You love the game.

You've got to know an eye for it.

He loved teaching and coaching and developing, and it really gave me the confidence to go get it.

And, and that was great.

And I'll ever forever be thankful for him.

Well, and it sounds like too, that you had a totally different relationship, right, with him comparatively to your high school coach.

And I think that's something that again, going back to the era when you and I grow up, that a lot of times coaches were much less relational.

I always say my college coach, and I've talked about this a couple times on the podcast, but when I'm playing in college, I felt like the relationship that I had with my head coach was almost non existent other than what would happen on the basketball court.

And later I ended up actually through the podcast, getting reconnected with one of my assistant coaches.

And as a, in the course of having him on the podcast and then talking to him off the podcast, he's like, hey, you should give Coach McDonald a call.

He would really like to hear from you.

And now this is like, seriously, 30 plus years after I had graduated and had ever talked to him.

And I ended up calling him up, Matt, and talked to him for probably like two hours.

And in the course of that two hour conversation, he would tell me things about my family.

Like, he talked to my parents in the parking lot after game X.

And he asked me like, well, how's your sister doing?

And all these things.

Remembered it all.

I had, I had no idea that this man knew anything about me other than I was a 63 shooting guard who could do X, Y and Z.

And.

And part of me was like, if you just, if you just would have shown me or us, my teammates, just 5% of like that humanity, how might the experience that we all had have been different and how might that have impacted our team in a positive way that might have let us win more games than we did or whatever it might be.

And it was just one of those things where you look at it and the relationship piece and the connection.

When I think about coaching or the things that I do, the connection with the people is something that I truly value.

And it seems like it'd be hard to coach and not value those things.

It was just such an interesting, eye opening conversation for me because it was such a.

He did know all these things about me, but I never saw any of those or never knew any of them.

And it just gave me a different perspective on who he was as a person and made me realize that he was just kind of a product of just the way it was.

That's the way he coached and didn't know.

That's probably the way he had been coached.

And boom, you just keep rolling on and now all of a sudden here you are.

But to have that kind of transformative relationship like you had, where all of a sudden you go from, hey, there's another way to do this that maybe makes more sense for Matt Rogers.

Right.

Moving forward of the relationship side of it, again, I could see where that was totally revelatory for you of like, hey, light bulb comes on.

I, I can do this.

And the confidence that he gave you, I, I can, I can hear it in your voice when you're talking.

Yeah, I was lucky too.

I had, I had a mentor.

Jerry Pedigu was my mentor.

And I, you know, if, if you're from Wisconsin, you know, Jerry Pedigu, he, he, we just lost him about a year and a half ago.

And Jerry first coached 60 years ago in my hometown of Leena, Illinois, and then got the job in Cuba City, Wisconsin, four or five years after he coached at Lena.

So we would go to his camps.

From the time I was 13 to 18, we went to his camps every single summer.

I just loved it.

And I loved the play.

I loved the competition, but I loved, I loved how he would walk on the floor.

There's 200 kids on the floor.

Like, you know, every camp that we have, he'd walk on the floor and every kid's eyes were on it, you know, and he was just a little guy.

He was about 5, 8, 5 9.

He looked like Yoda.

He, you know, he's, he was always, he always looked 20 years older than he was a typical coach, you know, but it was just so engrossing and how he, it was a tough love, but there was so much love to it.

And I know you found this too.

We haven't talked much about this, but I can hear it in your voice.

My podcast, the significant coaching podcast I have college coaches on every week and I walk away from every conversation going, why couldn't I have found a coach like you?

Why couldn't I have found a coach like Coach Pettigo?

Why wasn't that a part of my journey?

There's so many great coaches in our country and I'm just like, why couldn't I find somebody that could give me that love?

Because I was the kid that was raised.

You don't talk back to a teacher.

You sit in the front of the class, you sit up straight, you don't mess around, you know, and we treated our coaches like gods.

And I would run through a wall for a coach.

So the fact that I had a high school coach and then my, I talked about Bob Landis, who I loved.

Bob got fired after my freshman year because we hadn't won enough games.

So now I went from this 62 year old grandfather that I just dreamed of having as a coach and they bring in this 26 year old hothead to be head coach.

And he wanted a different team, he wanted different players.

So for me, it was the podcasts and the conversations I get to have with all these great coaches every week.

It, it warms my heart that we have such great coaches in our country and there's so many good men and women that are leading and coaching and teaching and Mentoring.

But there's always that in the back of my head, why couldn't have.

I have played for one of those.

You know, what's funny is when I hear you say that, it's always interesting because I'll have conversations with people about this various, whatever, various levels, but I've had lots of conversations, and typically with parents.

And I think that one of the things that I always find to be interesting about the coaching profession, right, is that you as a player have a certain window, right, Like Matt Rogers had a certain window to play high school basketball, where you lived the time that your coach was there.

And it just so happens that your time intersected with his time, and you only get to go through it once.

And sometimes things align for you, right?

And you get one of the great coaches that you get to talk to or I get to talk to on our podcast, and it works out great, whether that's college, whether that's high school, whatever it is.

And sometimes you go through and you get the three years or the four years of somebody who maybe wasn't the right fit for you.

And if you had just been bored four years earlier or four years later, or that coach had taken a different job, or this guy had taken that job, your experience could have been completely different.

And I think it's just when I look at the way the coaching profession has changed and I think about what you've been talking about and just in terms of the relationship side of it and how important that is to just making a kid's experience the best they can possibly be, both just as a player, but also just as a human being.

And that's one of the things that I've come to realize as a parent of kids who play sports is that, like, I want them to be successful, right?

I want them to have success on the court.

But what I'm more interested in is what is their experience like, what are they taking away from it that's going to help them 5, 10, 15, 20 years down the road?

And what are they going to remember about that experience?

Are they going to remember that, hey, my coach didn't really ever talk to me and seemed like all they cared about was just trying to win games?

Or do I remember that they tried to help me improve as a player, as a person, and.

And still win games at the same time?

And it's just.

It's interesting how, again, you sometimes cross paths with the right person, and sometimes it works out that you just don't for whatever reason.

It just.

Luck isn't on your side.

And I just think about how, again, that's the.

The.

The fate, for lack of a better way of saying it, of who you get at what point in your life has a big impact on what you do and how you do it.

It's so funny, too, because I think that's what really drives me today.

And, you know, you.

You don't think about this when you get to our age.

It's.

And then you just have this moment where you're like, oh, I'm doing this because of what happened to me 35 years ago.

You know, it's those things that just have never been healed.

Those.

Those scars that are still there.

And if any of my former players are listening, I'll be the first one to say, you know, I took a lot of those bad habits from my coaches.

It took me a while to get over those, because that's all I'd ever had.

You know, I didn't really have anybody that nurtured me and coddled me and patted me on the butt and said, hey, you're better than this, or you've got so much more in you.

And so it took me a long time to really figure out how to find that balance between helping a kid reach their potential and pushing them and challenging them and loving them.

And, you know, the older I get, and I'm sure you'll say the same thing, is the more that the tough is a lot less and the love is a lot more than it used to be.

And, you know, Absolutely.

You know, when you get to our age, so many of our former players are married.

They've got kids.

Some of them, you know, I've got some kids that.

They've got kids graduating from high school and going on to college.

And.

But now I'm.

I'm coaching so many college coaches, and I'm.

And I'm having these conversations with them about recruiting and go, oh, why would you recruit this kid?

We'd watch some film.

They go, oh, talent is undeniable.

I go, okay, what would keep you from recruiting them?

You know, are you thinking about what you want and what you need, or are you thinking about what they need, what kind of coach they need, what kind of environment they need?

And we think about those things, so we ask good questions.

And I do.

The same thing with kids is, you know, let's go find your dream school.

It may not be what you think.

It may not be the size, it may not be the location.

It may not be the major.

It may not be the coach you think you need to.

But let's figure out who you are and what you need.

And that's where the analogy I use is.

If anybody's ever laid drywall, there's always that crack, you know, that scene when you put two pieces.

I'm really enjoying being the mesh that kind of fills that scene and helps kids figure out who they are and where they need to be and how to find that coach that's going to give them what their soul needs.

And then doing the same thing for coaches, helping them find kids that really fit them.

Because when we can do that, man, it's such a great experience for both.

When they can find each other and they know they're going to grow from each other.

What's the biggest misconception that players and families carry into the recruiting process?

When you have your first conversation with them, what are things that people have one perception of what recruiting means or what.

Where they're at, but they're kind of off base.

What is that?

Well, they either come completely lost.

I have no idea where to start.

I don't even, you know, they just know we got a kid that loves to play, or it's.

They've got such an ego.

Well, they were first team all conference.

They've got 4.0.

They've read enough and listened to enough that they.

They think their kid checks all the boxes.

What they don't understand is that, you know, we use basketball as an example.

I work with all sorts of kids in different sports, but basketball, there's.

You know, multiply that times 15.

That is a lot of athletes.

And.

And most those kids that are playing in college, they check all those boxes.

They check the character, they check the grades, they check the ability, the relationship.

Not all of them do.

You know, sometimes when you're 6 foot 9 and you can dunk it with your teeth, you know, you can be a little lax with some of those things.

So getting families to understand that at the junior college level and the D3 level and the NAI level, there are kids, a lot of kids at those levels that were first team, all state, and D3 NAI was really their ceiling.

It's where they belonged.

And just because you're a really good player, doesn't mean you're going to Duke and North Carolina are going to call, you know, and so that's why I really push families.

Go watch as many basketball games as you can.

If you're a baseball family, go watch as many college baseball games.

Go to a junior college.

I just got off the phone with a junior college coach here in Colorado, where I live.

They won 45 games this year.

He had.

He just told me, he goes, Matt, we had 150 kids reach out to us.

Junior college coach, baseball, small little town of Nothing.

They had 150 kids just this week reach out to them to get recruited.

And they can all play, every single one of them.

So getting families to understand that, that this journey has to be premeditated.

You have to think about your kid.

What do they need?

What makes them happy, what makes them healthy?

And, you know, that's where we start.

Because if your kid doesn't like cold weather, well, let's, let's cross off.

North Dakota, South Dakota, Minnesota, Massachusetts, you know, because it's.

They're not going to like it there.

So that's kind of the biggest things I see is just families come in, they either don't have any knowledge and don't know where to start, or they have just enough knowledge to be dangerous.

Makes sense.

I think.

When I think about what you just said, I go back to a conversation that I had with John Baines, who's the head men's basketball coach at Elmhurst.

Love, love John.

And I remember John.

Yeah, great guy.

To try to get him to come out to Elmhurst.

But to your point, again, you start making decisions about how far away do you want to be, how close do you want to be, and, yeah, whatever.

But one of the things I remember that John told me on the podcast that I did with him was the number of kids that he recruits.

That when you sit down, you ask them, have you ever been to a Division 3 basketball game to watch that game and to see what the level looks like?

Because a lot of people, right, there's still this Division 1 mentality, right, which is what you're talking about, of there's certain boxes and checkpoints that you have to have in order to be able to play at the different levels.

And of course, the level that most people see and are aware of and have grown up with is the Division 1 level.

They don't understand NAI or JUCO or Division 3 or even Division 2.

They don't know what any of those levels are or what they're about.

And I just was remember being totally struck by John saying, a lot of the guys that were recruiting and we're talking to them for the first time, they literally have not seen a Division 3 game.

And so they're like, a Division 3.

Like, come on.

And.

And I always say to people, like, I don't care what level of college basketball you're playing or any sport.

Right.

But in this case basketball, you have no idea or no understanding of how good you have to be to be able to play at that level.

If you're a high school player, like, you go to an AAU tournament.

And my son was fortunate enough to be 6 foot 6.

And so I would always tell him, I'm like, look, you have a huge advantage here that people are going to give you a second and a third look because you're six foot six, and there just aren't that many people out there who are 6 foot 6.

If you go to an AAU tournament and you say, okay, I want to recruit a 5, 10 white guard who is a pretty good shooter, well, that's 95% of the players at this AAU tournament that describes who they are.

Right.

And so that's right.

I think people, again, to your point, to be able to help people to understand who their player is and then what is going to be a good fit for them so that they can find a level that they can play and excel and have a good experience.

And that.

That's hard to do.

It takes educating the family and the player, which is what someone with your perspective is able to do.

Yeah, you know, it's my.

I always tease my wife about this.

She was.

She was that teenage girl that said, I want to marry a boy with brown hair and blue eyes and they have to be at least six foot tall.

You know, that was.

That's kind of how she thought at that age.

And I think a lot of kids, they have that same mental.

I want D1 and I want big, big campus.

I want to go to the football games with 70,000 people.

I want to play on national TV.

Now it's.

I want nil money, whatever it may be.

And I think you just have to take a step back like you hope most people do when they get to our age, is you have to go.

What really makes me happy.

I love playing.

Because if you don't love playing, you.

You're already on the wrong journey, you're already on the wrong track.

And you and I can go.

We could probably talk another podcast about how disappointed it is how many times we drive by the blacktop courts in the park and there's nobody there shooting.

If they are, they're messing around.

They got Crocs on, and they're, you know, throwing up trick shots.

You know, you just don't see it.

You know, I grew up, I could get in a pickup game, you know, three different times a day, and I could make a phone call and have six guys show up out at an outdoor court, and we'd play.

We played three on three.

We played four on four.

Whatever.

We could play.

So I think getting kids to understand what makes you happy.

Do you love the game?

Because I'm that guy.

You know, I'm in my mid-50s now, and I can.

I can tell you when I quit, when I quit playing in college, because my shoulder was gone and my hips were gone and I had shin splints.

I just.

I couldn't run anymore.

I couldn't.

I couldn't throw a ball anymore.

I need.

I was so banged up that I still today go.

I wish I could go back in time and just look that kid in the eye and go, you love to play.

You've got a college uniform on your back.

You're a part of a team.

You love the players you're playing with.

All right, so maybe you're not as good as you.

Maybe you're never going to be a starter at this level, but you have an opportunity.

Why would you walk away from that?

So I want to.

I want to go shake that young version of myself.

So I really tell kids that, you know, don't forget how important this is.

You want to get a degree, you want to get an education, you want to keep playing.

Let have a little tunnel vision with that.

And you're probably going to find eight to 10 coaches that love you because you love the game and want to keep playing and want to learn and want to get better.

And then from that eight to 10 coaches, you're probably going to find one or two that you can't imagine not playing for.

But you got to give yourself that time.

You got to give yourself that patience, a little bit of humility.

What are some of the things that you recommend to players and families when it comes to having a conversation with a coach?

So maybe there's a mutual interest in some way.

What are things that families should be thinking about in terms of questions?

They should be Asking to a coach who's recruiting them.

I don't want to, I don't want to self promote here.

That's not why I'm here.

But I really believe that kids should be journaling, you know, have a notebook, have a notebook that you're writing things down.

Why do you love the game?

Why do you want to go to college?

What do you like about being a teammate?

And I think before you start asking coaches questions, you have to understand what that game means to you.

What, what does growing up, leaving your mom and dad's house, going off on your own, what do you want to accomplish?

What, what are those little things that are important to you, you know, or is it just, well, I want to, I want to start, you know, or I want to play D2, I want to get a scholarship.

Well, that doesn't have anything to do with playing, you know, it's so.

I think it starts there.

So once you figure that out about yourself, why you love it, why you want to go to college, who do you want to be when you get there?

I think that's when you can start asking coaches questions like, hey, coach, what do you see in me when you look at my film?

What made you want to call me?

What made you want to bring me to campus?

You know, how do I, how do I fit your program?

Where do I fit culture wise?

What is your culture like?

You know, what would make a bad addition to your program?

What makes a good addition to your program?

You know, you've watched my film, coach, or you see me play live, what do I need to be working on?

So when I step on campus, if I do come here, I'm ready to compete, I'm ready, you know, to do some good work.

And I think from a basketball standpoint, those are really important conversations to have with a coach.

And they will love you.

The college coach will love you so much that you're asking that type of question.

Because that's what they want to talk about.

They don't want to talk about money.

They don't want to talk about starting.

They want a kid that's going to say, I want this, I want to keep playing, I want to be as good as I can be.

And I want a coach that's going to help me get there.

So I think getting kids to understand that, getting mom and dad to understand that's really important.

And then on the other side of it, you got to ask about the class size.

Because I grew up in a town of 2,000 people.

My whole high school was 240 kids.

I graduated with 61.

So for me, the idea of going to a school with 30,000 kids and a lecture hall with 400 kids in the lecture hall, I got anxiety just thinking about that.

I know I needed small classrooms.

I know I needed a small size.

Now, I love the city.

I love that I live in Denver and I lived outside of la, and I've lived outside of Chicago and got to be a part of those big cities.

But at 18, I wasn't ready for that.

I needed a small environment.

So I think it's so important.

And in the book I wrote, I also did companion journals.

So the Basketball Recruits Journal, it asks you all these questions to answer so you can start going, okay, what do I think about myself as a leader or what happens when I have a bad game?

How do I react to it?

How do I want to react to it?

If I miss a shot, what do I typically do?

Do I drop my head?

Do I.

Do I turn around and play tough defense?

You know, is the next two minutes garbage?

Because I can't get past the fact that I turned the ball over or I missed a shot.

How do I want to handle that?

So I think for me, that's what I want to give kids.

I want to give them that opportunity to say, you can control some of this.

You can work on yourself, you can think about yourself, and that's okay.

And it doesn't have to be perfect.

You can make mistakes, but let's start learning what we want to do with those mistakes.

So two things that jumped out at me when you were talking there.

One was just talking about, right, Sort of the love for the game and wanting to go and.

And do it because you love playing, not just for the glory or the scholarship or the ability to post on social media.

Right.

I think.

Right.

The ability to want to improve and want to do it on your own, to take the initiative to try to get better.

I think those are the people that always have success.

I tell this to parents from the time I start talking to them at camp when their kid is 6 years old, and they're asking me this, that the other thing.

And I always say, I can give you lots of different pieces of advice, but the ultimate piece of advice is that unless your kid loves it and wants to do it on their own, whatever you do beyond that, you can give them opportunities.

You can maybe force them to do some stuff when they're 7, 8, 9, 10 years old, but eventually they're gonna just drop off if it's not something that they love to do.

And I think about my own kids, right?

As a parent.

I have my oldest daughter stop playing in ninth grade.

She's like, dad, I'm not having any fun.

I don't like the girls I'm playing with.

I don't think I want to play basketball anymore.

Like, great, let's go find something else that you love to do.

Let's, let's figure out what that is and let's pour your energy into that.

And then my son gets to be about 8th or 9th grade and suddenly instead of dad saying, hey, do you want to go to the gym?

Suddenly he's saying, I want to go to the gym.

Can you take me to the gym?

Then once he can drive, he's driving himself to the gym.

He's trying to find guys to be able to play.

He's in college now and he's playing and working and trying to get better.

And I have, I have nothing to do with it.

Sometimes they'll come and ask me advice or whatever or, hey, can you come shoot with me today?

But for the most part, he's taking control over it because it's what he wants to do, right?

Just like you said, he wants to be able to play.

So I think that's a big piece, right, of if you're going to have success at the next level as a college player, you have to want to do that.

And not mom wants you to do it, not dad wants you to do it, not your high school coach wants you to do it, but you have to want to do it for yourself.

I think that is, is a really big, important piece of that.

And then the other thing that stood out to me that you were talking about is just that, that self awareness of understanding.

How do I do things?

How do I like going about doing the things I do?

How do.

What kind of school do I want to go to?

I don't want to be in a city.

Do I want to be in the country?

Do I want to be at a big school?

Do I want to be at a small school?

Like, it was funny to hear me.

Hear you say that you're from a.

Small high school and so you knew.

You needed the small class sizes.

Size.

I always say I wanted to be a number.

I wanted to go to a big school and I wanted to be able to sit in the back of the lecture hall and not have everybody know, hey, there's Mike sitting there.

I could just go in there and yeah, do my, take notes and do my stuff and whatever and not have A big focus on me.

So I wanted big school.

I went to a big high school, I graduated with like 600 kids.

So it's completely a different thing.

But you got to know who you are and what is right for you.

And sometimes that ability to be self aware because of all the outside noise and influences, people sometimes just take what they see out there and they think that's what they want, but they haven't really done the time.

Like you said, to journal, to write it down, to think about, hey, what do I really want?

So I think that's really a good piece of advice.

Yeah, I, you know, and I'm an old English teacher, so that's easy for me to say because I, I love to write and I love to read and you know, so for me I, I just, I want kids to just slow down and think for a little bit, you know, and I'm, I got a 17 year old daughter in my house and you know, I don't think she's going to play sports in college.

You know, she's kind of been burned out by coaches that didn't, I don't think they loved it.

You know, I don't think they love coaching.

And so for her, I want her to still think about those things.

Forget the sport.

You got to think about what makes you happy because you don't want to get there and go, wow, I really need this in my life.

And it's not here.

For some kids, it's a Starbucks.

If there's not a Starbucks within 10 minutes or it's not on campus, well, I'm not going there because I need that drug in my veins.

I need to have that coffee or whatever that fruity drink they like.

So the more you think about who you are and you really make a list, go, what's, what are the things I can't live without?

And you know, what are my non negotiables?

It's, it's such a big advantage for when you start looking at schools because you can cross schools off really quickly.

Okay, well they don't have those three things that I absolutely have.

I have to wanna.

But it's, it's funny Mike too, because I'll work with a kid when they're, you know, sometimes I'll work with a kid when they're 13, 14, and then when they're 18 and we've got offers on the table, I'll sit down and do a pros and cons worksheet with them and we'll compare all the schools and then so before they make a decision, I make them sit with that for a couple days and review it.

And then it's always funny, because after they're ready to make their decision, I'll go, I'm going to read to you what your priorities were two and a half years ago and who you thought you were and who you wanted to be.

And they'll look at me and they'll go, I did not tell you that.

I go, why would I make that up?

This is who you said you wanted to be.

This is what you know.

So the kids that I go through, we go through such a transition with them because I make them really think about what's right for you.

So at the end, I don't want to.

I don't want them calling me in a year and a half, go, matt, I hate it here.

I gotta.

I want to jump in the portal.

I want to get them prepared for.

It's going to be hard that first year.

I don't care if you're at Duke and you're playing.

You know, you're the seventh man at Duke's roster and playing for Coach Shire, it's going to be hard.

You're going to want to quit about 15 different times, you know, and you gotta get through that first year.

But let's pick the place and the people, the right place and the right people that you're gonna want to go through those hard times with.

Right?

So it's, It's.

It's fun, it's hard.

I think it's getting harder because kids, like you said at the beginning, they have so many influences, they have so many voices they're listening to, and I just want them to listen to their own voice.

I want it's quieted enough so they can hear what they really want and what they're really thinking and not what their.

Their buddy on the team that already got an offer is thinking and wants.

Yeah, it's really true.

And I think that you make a great point about how difficult it is to be a college athlete.

And I think this is the one thing that parents and kids have zero understanding of.

The amount of time and effort that gets put into being a college athlete, it becomes much more like a job.

Which goes back to the last part of the conversation, which is, you better love it, because there's going to be pieces of it that you're going to have to go through that you're not going to love.

Even if you love the game and you love playing, there are going to be things that you're going to have to do that.

You're not going to love.

And so you have to figure out ways, as you said, to be able to get through that, to understand it.

And I think most, again, families, parents, don't, don't understand especially again, what's the dream, right?

Everybody wants to play Division 1.

I look at my experience, right?

But being a Division 1 basketball player during my era was probably more similar to being a Division 3 basketball player today.

Division 1 basketball player today.

Because honestly, Matt, when my season ended and I would go in and meet with my coaching staff, they would say, hey, here's your workouts for the summer.

It'd be like a two page ditto of this is the weight workout we want you to do.

We'll see you back here in August.

That's right.

And then I went and did my thing, whatever my thing was.

If I was somebody that wanted to lift weights, I went and lifted weights.

If I was somebody who wanted to play pickup basketball, I went and played pickup basketball.

If I wanted to get in the gym and work on my game, I did that.

If I had a teammate who didn't want to do any of that stuff, guess what?

They didn't do any of that stuff.

Guess who was checking on them?

Nobody, not until you reported back on campus.

Whereas now Division one, how many weeks out of the year are those kids on campus carrying their coaching staff coach them?

And I think about just my experience, man, I needed that time away from my coaches to rejuvenate my love for the game.

And for me, I was a self motivated kid.

So I wanted to just be able to get in the gym by myself and work out what I wanted to work on and not have one of my assistant coaches chirping in my ear while I was doing it.

I just wanted to be there doing it myself.

And again, that doesn't exist at the Division 1 level anymore.

You're on campus year round and I don't think people understand the commitment especially and again, at any level like my son plays Division 3 basketball and the commitment level that he's making now, again, what he's doing in the summertime is not mandatory from his coaching staff.

His coaching staff is not working with him.

But he knows if he doesn't do what he's doing that he's going to put himself behind as he gets into the fall.

I just think people don't have.

Everybody glorifies what it means to be a college athlete and I think there's a lot of misunderstanding on the part of parents and players as to what that actually entails.

And I'm curious, do you have conversations with kids that you've helped and you get into talking to them during their freshman year, sophomore year families, do they come back to you and say, hey, you were right.

Like, this is a lot more than what we bargained for.

And maybe they say we love it.

Or maybe they say, man, we had no idea what we were getting into.

Maybe, maybe this wasn't what we wanted.

It's funny, Mike, it's funny you bring that up because I probably hear from my kids that are on a college campus already that we've placed maybe more than I hear from my high school kids.

So my high school kids still have that.

I'm still the security blanket.

Matt's going to take care of me if this doesn't, you know, Matt's going to make some calls for me.

Matt's going to introduce me to all the coaches.

I need to.

I don't give them that up front, but they know that at that some point that's going to happen.

If, if we haven't found enough of the coaches that really love them, we're going to, we're going to create that with them.

So the kids in college, I'll hear from them all the time and they'll say, hey, you got chance, you got time to talk?

Hey, I'm.

The coach is talking to me like this and I'm not sure what to do with it or, you know, the coach told me I need to work on this.

I'm not sure what he means.

And so it's, I do so much with communication.

We'll go, well, did you go, coach, I don't understand, can you explain that to me?

He goes, no, I didn't want to, I didn't want to sound dumb.

You know, I don't want to think.

Coach, I didn't understand the vocabulary.

I'm going, as coaches, we sometimes don't realize that the vocabulary that we've taught our whole life and how we look at the game is different than maybe you learned it.

And you got to understand that.

You know, I'm working with a 13 year old right now and I was telling them, go to the elbow.

And they looked at me like, what?

What do you mean, the elbow?

I go, I just stop and go, oh, it's.

The elbow is the free throw line, the corner and the free throw line, that 90 degree angle there, that.

Those are the two elbows.

When I tell you to go to an elbow.

That's where we're going.

Like, oh, I never heard that before, you know, so getting kids to understand how important it is to communicate.

And I'll.

And I do a little thing with my kids before they go off to college, before that week, before they leave.

And I go, first thing I want you to do, and this is going to be really, really hard for you, is I want you to go talk to your coach when you get to campus the first couple days, and I want you to tell coach that you really want to have a great relationship with them, but you want to understand what kind of relationship they want with their players and what kind of relationship they think they want to have with you.

And I go, what do you mean by that?

And I go, well, some coaches are going to be.

They want to know everything that's going on in your life.

They're going to know every class you have.

They're going to know every teacher you have.

They're going to know every dead period you have.

They're going to know your sisters and your brothers.

They're going to know what color your underwear is.

I mean, they're going to know everything about it.

And then there's going to be coaches that want you to show up to practice.

You know, if you need help, there's an assistant coach for that, or you need an injury, there's an athletic trainer for that.

And it's very decompartmentalized.

So you got to go talk to your coach and go say, coach, I really want a great relationship with you.

This is important to me that I'm here and I'm a part of this program and I learn how to be a part of this program and really talk about what that relationship you want from each other.

When I go, it's going to be scary, but go do it.

You know, and we typically.

It's one of the things I have my kids ask on a visit as well.

Coach, what kind of relationship do you want with your players?

Because that.

It'll tell you a ton.

That coach will either freeze up and be very short with their answer, or they'll go, oh, so glad you asked that.

I'm going to tell you I love you every day.

I'm going to give you a hug every day.

You know, if you don't like that, you tell me that.

And I'm going to, you know, I'm going to back off, but I'm going to push you hard.

I'm going to challenge the hell out of you, but I'M going to be your biggest cheerleader.

You're going to get that difference in coaches.

So I think for me, I want kids to understand that's a big part of their maturity.

And taking that step to college is figuring out that relationship early on and do the same thing with your professors.

You know, hey, you know, I'm not great at econ.

Can I come talk to you?

How does it work if I'm struggling?

You know, what does study skills look like in your class?

How many hours should I be studying every week for your class?

Have those conversations.

And again, I think that's hard at a place where you're in a lecture hall with 400 kids, you know what I mean?

But I think you learn how to do that and you're going to have a lot more fun and you're going to grow up a lot faster.

Well, I think what I hear and take away from that is that's a skill that translates outside of athletics, outside of the college space, right?

Where if you are willing to have a conversation with someone, which let's face, for most 17 or 18 year old kids having a direct conversation with an adult coach, I would put that in the category of a difficult or tough conversation.

And the better you get at having difficult, tough conversations in your life, probably the better your life is going to be.

Right?

Because we're all going to be in situations where we have to have a difficult conversation with somebody that we work with, we work for somebody in our family that we love, a disagreement that we have.

And if you are someone who shies away from having those conversations, things can get really difficult really fast because a lot of stuff gets pushed under the rug and then you don't get what you want or you need out of that relationship or out of that conversation, whatever it may be.

And so I think what I hear when I listen to you share that particular piece of advice is, yeah, it's applicable right there.

Right.

It gets you something that you're going to need from your college coach.

Right?

What's that relationship going to be like?

But then I can extrapolate that one step further of I've now learned how to have a difficult conversation with an adult and I'm probably going to have to do that many, many more times in my life in different contexts.

And I think there's, there's tremendous value in that because we don't always get the opportunity again, especially because what are, how are most kids, how are most kids having conversations with anybody?

Right?

They're, they're not doing it face to face, having a talk.

They're actually just typing away, texting with people or doing it on whatever social media is the, is the hot thing.

So I just think there's tremendous value in that.

Matt, I agree, you know, you and I can do this offline, but I love talking about the NBA draft.

I.

It's probably the, it's one of my favorite times of the year.

And I, I'm that guy that I'm looking at teams going, if you're not drafting to be Wemby, joke, Jokic or Giannis, what are you doing?

Because if you don't have three guys to throw at those guys, you're not winning an NBA championship.

And that's why the Knicks won.

Even though, you know, Brunson was the star in the mvp, they had somebody, a couple of guys that could deal with that size.

So my point of this is, and it's really important that teenagers start learning this before they go to college.

Is this us adults, us head coaches, athletic directors, GMs, whatever our titles are, we have flaws.

None of us are perfect.

And you have to get that through your head that the people that you're going to be with in college, they're not perfect people.

They're going to make mistakes.

They have flaws that maybe really affect you and going back to that health and happiness.

Well, what kind of coach do you need?

Are you going to be okay if the coach kind of pushes the relationship stuff off to the assistant coaches?

Is that comfortable for you?

Maybe it is.

Maybe that's exactly what you want because of the intimidation of that head coach, and you want that relationship to have some space into it.

But I think understanding that, you know, I talk to kids before they go to college, too, about the fact that your relationship with your parents is about to change, whether they want it or you want it or not, it's about to change.

Because there's going to be some times where you have to go, mom, Dad, I got this.

There has to be.

There's going to be some privacy, some things that you have to go through that maybe you have a great communication with your parents and you can talk to them about it.

But there's going to come a time in your life where you're going to go, mom, that's it.

I don't want to talk about this anymore.

I've made my mind up, dad.

I've got this.

And until you can do that, you're still a kid and you're not going to figure out what being an adult is all about.

That doesn't mean you disrespect your parents.

That doesn't mean you tell them to go bug off.

But there comes the point where you have to stand up for yourself and you have to be able to say, I have to figure this out.

I have to fail a little bit.

I have to be okay failing.

I have to be okay not being okay.

I'm having a bad couple of weeks.

That doesn't mean I'm a bad person.

That doesn't mean I'm a bad player, doesn't mean I'm bad student, doesn't mean I made a mistake coming here.

It just means I'm having a rough time.

And I have to talk to the people on that campus to help me.

The counselors, the coaches, the teachers, the residence hall people.

I have to use those resources to help me get over these bad times and help me understand that it's.

Maybe it's not as bad as I think it is.

Maybe, Coach, even though they're yelling at me all the time, maybe that's a good thing.

Maybe they really believe in me because they recruited me, you know, they handed me a scholarship.

Yes, they believe in you.

That doesn't mean they're not going to yell at you.

That doesn't mean they're not going to challenge you.

So that's a big deal for me is just getting kids to understand that before they go, you're going to fail.

You're going to fall flat on your face and it's going to hurt, but you're going to get up and we're going to.

You're going to get better, you're going to keep working, you're going to communicate, and by the time you're a sophomore, you're going to look back and go, why was I worried so much?

It's a really good piece of advice, and it's something that I think almost all freshmen go through that, whether it's academically, whether it's athletically.

Things are not easy at the next level, and you have to adjust to them.

And the way you do that is by fighting through difficult times.

And like we said, being able to have the communication that you want to have with professors, coaches, teammates, parents, all that factors into how well you're able to deal with whatever situations are thrown at you.

And I think they're.

Again, it's never easy.

But what you hope is that you get challenged and pushed right to the edge of your comfort zone, and then you come out of it on the other side.

Like you said, looking around, going all right, I made it through that.

I learned a lesson, and now I'm ready to take whatever the next challenge might be.

Let's shift now to the conversations that you have on the other side of the equation with coaches.

Tell me about some of the things that you're working with coaches on to help them to have a better understanding of what they're trying to do.

As you said, right off the top, you're like, hey, what kind of players do you want to recruit and coach?

Well, I'm not sure.

Maybe I'm just looking for talent.

So how do you help coaches?

On the recruiting side of it, I think it's very similar getting coaches to understand why you did this, why did you take this job, why did you pursue it?

Whether you've been doing it for 25 years or you just got your first head coaching job, why is this something you chose to do?

And somebody that's been doing it for 25 years is going to give you a very articulate answer, and they're going to typically be able to tell you very clearly, this is why I coach, and this is why I love it.

Because they figured it out.

They figured out that answer.

You know, after year five, they're like, oh, this is.

I can get.

I could be good at this.

After year 10, they were like, I got a routine and I've got a system and it works.

And I know how to shrink the failures and increase the successes.

I know how to find the right kids.

But they all are going to struggle a little bit because we're so inundated as a coach with our life.

We're recruiting, especially a college coach.

You're recruiting year round.

You're inundated with phone calls and emails every single day.

You're trying to build your staff.

You're trying to grow your roster, you're trying to keep everybody happy, but you're trying to challenge them.

So for coaches, I want them to take a step back and go, why am I doing this?

And typically, I'm going out to Washington.

I'm going to spend a couple days with a coaching staff, college coaching staff, out in Oregon.

And one of the first questions, I'll sit down and I'll ask him.

I go, and I'll take that back.

I won't start with a question.

I'll go, all right, you're all fired.

It's over.

You're no longer a head coach.

Who are you?

Who are you now that that title's gone?

And is there a sense of relief that you're not that head coach today, and you don't have that burden of the being the CEO of a sports program that you don't have to recruit tomorrow.

Or is it, I gotta go find another job, but if it's, I gotta go find another job.

Why?

Why do you need another job?

And let's talk about the fact that you were let go.

There was a reason you were let go.

What do you think that reason was?

Okay.

And this is all hypothetical, but I want them to think about, if this was taken away from you tomorrow,.

Who would you be?

Because when I stepped down my last year as a head college coach, my wife had our second child in the middle of our season.

Her dad got cancer.

My dad had a stroke.

Her mom, you know, my wife's mom had heart problems.

And we were raising two kids under the age of four by ourselves in California with no family.

And we just looked at each other and go, we got to get back to family.

So for me, when I.

When I stepped down, it was.

It was just a flush of depression for about three months because I could not.

I could not figure out how to live without the gain, without being Coach Rogers, without being the person in charge of all these kids and all this staff and all this budget, all this recruiting.

I didn't know how to live.

And I really want coaches young and old to feel that for a little bit and go, let's get back to why you do this.

Let's get back to why you love it, and let's get back to figuring out how you make yourself happy.

But how do we find the right kids to make them happy so they have a great experience with you?

And that doesn't mean they're not having a great experience with you, but maybe it can be a little bit better.

So that's a huge focus of mine.

And you'll appreciate this, Mike.

I know you will.

I just did a keynote speak for a conference out west, and we talked about coaching coaches, and it was 70 athletic directors in the room and a bunch of commissioners.

And I'll go, how many of your head coaches were taught how to do their budget?

How many of them were taught a recruiting strategy on how they're going to recruit, how they're going to build their roster?

How many of them were taught how to order uniforms, how to order equipment?

And their heads all went down?

And I go.

And I go, why are your heads down?

They go, well, we don't have time.

And I go, at what point do we make the time to coach our coaches?

Because even though we hired them to do the job.

That doesn't mean they have answers to all these questions.

So that's.

That's really important to me.

It's.

It's probably what I'm going to do for the next 25, 30 years.

As long as I'm on this earth, I'm going to be coaching coaches to get them to the point where they can be healthy and happy.

They can provide great experiences for the student athletes that they want to coach and are passionate about coaching.

But that's.

Those are the big things that I talk about with them.

Thank you.

One of the things that always strikes me about coaching, and it struck me in my teaching career as well, is that so often as a coach or as a teacher, you are by yourself.

Yeah.

In your own head, in your classroom, in your gym, with your players.

Maybe if you're a coach, you have a coaching staff with you.

If you're a teacher, you're most likely by yourself.

But either way, it feels like you kind of are on this island, and you never really know what everybody else is out there experiencing.

Right.

And so often we feel like, gosh, this is.

I'm the only person that this problem has ever happened to.

And yet, if you get an opportunity to talk to someone, you realize, hey, there's 50 other coaches that have experienced.

The kid who maybe was a starter, wasn't playing as well, got taken to the bench, their dad got really upset and came in and talked to you.

And now you got to figure out how to handle that.

And it feels like I'm the only coach in America that's ever had to deal with this.

And the reality is, you're not.

There's lots of coaches who have had similar experiences, and just to be able to have somebody that you can bounce a question, a thought, an idea off of is invaluable.

I think about your point there with the athletic directors of, hey, have you ever taught somebody how to order tickets?

Have you ever taught somebody how to put together a uniform?

Whatever it is,.

There are people out there who have done it, who could probably easily show you how to do that in an hour or in 15 minutes or whatever.

But instead, we usually leave everybody kind of to their own devices, assuming that they already know how to do that.

And then it's kind of like, right, everybody has to reinvent the wheel instead of, hey, let's pool our resources as an athletic department.

And maybe our softball coach deals with the same vendor as our volleyball coach.

And maybe if the two of them sat down together, what might take Them separately.

Four hours they could do together in two hours.

Because it'd be two minds are better than one.

And I think a lot of times, again, as coaches, we're just kind of on this island and we forget that there are other people out there that are experiencing the same thing.

And if we could do a better job of connecting, we might be able to sort of short circuit some of those long roads that we have to take and just do things quicker, if that makes any sense.

It makes complete sense.

But, you know, I know you have a lot of coaches out there that listen to the podcast.

You know, I'd ask them, how often do you have staff meetings?

How often does your ad bring all the coaches together and have a staff meeting?

And then are those meetings dreaded, or do you look forward to them?

And 99% of them are going to say, we either don't have them very often or we dread them.

You know, so I've.

I had an ad call me about a month ago and said, matt, I need some help with my staff.

I've got some young coaches and I'm struggling.

They're so talented and they're so passionate, but I'm struggling to get them where they need to be, and I think I need some help.

And what was amazing about this is she just won the NACDA Athletic Director of the Year award.

Okay, this is one of the best ads in the country at the college level.

And she goes, I just.

I know I'm missing some things.

I know there's some things I gotta do better.

And it made me feel so good about her.

And I realized very quickly that's why she's one of the best ads in the country, because she's so humble and she so wants everybody to be better and wants to give more.

And one of the things we talked about early on, and we're.

I'm coming out to speak to our staff here in a couple weeks as we talked about, who are your master teachers?

And she goes, well, I think they're all master teachers.

I go, okay, well, what are they?

What are they really good at?

And she goes, well, John, my soccer coach is amazing recruiter.

And I go, our volleyball coach, he's.

He is unbelievable with social media.

And she just kept going down the list.

You know, she told me like four or five things.

And I go, there's 20 minutes of your staff meeting once a month.

Every one of your coaches is a master at something.

They're so good at.

Building practice plans, recruiting social media budgets.

Every month, one of Those coaches is going to do a masterclass on what they're really good at and give them a chance to coach each other.

Okay, yes, you're going to bring me in to be your athletic consultant, but you've got 12 consultants already on your staff.

Let's use that.

Let's get them teaching each other.

That's why we're a team.

That's why we're an athletic department.

And so I'm excited about that.

When I talk to ADs and coaches that are just so hungry to learn.

And oftentimes it's the ones like John Baines that we talked about earlier that are just knocking it out of the park, you know, but you talk to John and he's like, well, I just talked to, you know, the.

This guy that just won the national championship, and I was picking his brain.

And then I went to this, you know, this seminar with this, with Izzo, and I learned all of this.

And he's a guy that wins 20 games every single year, goes deep into the national tournament, but he never stops learning.

And I love that.

And I.

And, and I, and I try and remind young coaches of that.

You can't stop learning.

You know, as soon as you stop learning, you're going to hate it.

Your kids are going to start hating you, and you're going to.

The successes are going to start going down.

You got to change.

You got to get better.

Doesn't mean you have to change everything every year.

You don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater, but you got to look at every year and go, how do I get better?

The thing with that is it's so easy and yet overwhelming to do that today, right?

There's a million.

If you want to learn X's and O's, there's a million videos that you can look at.

And there's this play, there's that play, there's this set, there's this.

You could.

You could go down a rabbit hole and seriously spend days, weeks, trying to sort through all the stuff X's and O's wise.

How many books are there on leadership, whether it's the business or coaching, that you could dive into and read, right?

I mean, there's a.

There's a million.

So the question is, how do you curate some of those things and your example of.

Within an athletic department of, hey, here's somebody who works at the same level that you do in the same institution as you, that's having success doing X.

Now, granted, it's not your same sport, but let's try to find the concepts that are applicable that's right across from this sport to that sport.

If one, if, if volleyball is great at doing social media, well, guess what?

It's not that far of a leap for you as the basketball coach to be able to take what the volleyball coach is doing and apply it to what you're doing.

And so I think that ability as a coach to want to continuously learn is critically important.

And then you also have to be able to understand and curate the things that are out there so that you're taking what's valuable and you're not just sort of swimming in this ocean of a bunch of stuff that, that doesn't necessarily make sense or fit with who you are.

Goes back to that self awareness piece that we talked earlier.

Right.

I as a coach have to understand what are the things that make me happy, what are the things that I want out of my players, what are the things that I need in my program so that I feel like I'm having successful and I'm enjoying going to work every day, which is going to make me more productive and better at what I do.

And so there's all these pieces, I think, that go into it.

And when I hear you talk and I think about what you do to me, I think there's tremendous value in you asking me questions, getting me to think about things that if I'm just sitting in my silo by myself, that I might never think about that.

All it takes is for Matt to just say, hey, what about this?

And then all of a sudden this light bulb goes off or I'm like, oh, yeah, I remember I had a book about that.

Or I remember I talked to this guy across the country who was doing that exact thing.

But the prompting of somebody who's in your role, right, of kind of understanding and looking at the big picture helps other people to take that big picture and narrow it down to their specific circumstance.

Well, it's, it's, you know, and this is, this is why your podcast is so important.

It's so important because of your curiosity and your deep passion to learn that you're bringing all these other people on to share that knowledge.

And I just don't think we do enough of that.

There's not enough people that are going, hey, I found this unbelievable person.

You should meet them because they'll do this for you.

Or just listen to them because I took this from that.

I think it might help you.

And I think the more as coaches, we share, you know, somebody I was speaking on A panel somewhere, I can't remember, 10 years ago, and somebody was asking me about NCSA and Captain U and all the recruiting services and, and one of the college coaches spoke up and said, we don't use them and you shouldn't either.

It was just like, and I was the head national scout at NCSA at the time, and I just looked at him and I just laughed.

And soon it was, there was a break and we gave every, you know, there was a bathroom break.

And then we were coming back and I walked out with him and I go, coach, you know that people can see that over the last three years you've brought in 24 kids from NCSA, right?

He goes, everybody can see that.

I go, yeah, you've brought in 24 kids.

The last, this is a football coach.

24 Kids that are primary players on your roster that you found through NCSA or field level or Captain U or something like that.

And he goes, well, yeah, maybe I shouldn't have been so firm about that, but that's okay, you know, I, I don't want people to know where we recruit from.

So it's like now all these families think, well, I'm not gonna, you know, it's worthless for me to use a service and, and I'll talk your ear off about the good and the bad of these services at any point, but to go, to tell a family that you shouldn't try and get your kid in front a lot of coaches in the easiest way possible without having to spend a lot of money if you can.

I mean, that's, now you're harming those kids because you're trying to hold your cards to your best, you know, I mean, so I, I, I think we, we as coaches, sometimes we try too hard to, to be different, to be on that island because we think that's how we're going to succeed as being on that island that you talked about.

And I think the more we share some of this knowledge, the better we all get and the happier kids we have.

I agree with that.

And I think it's harder than ever today to keep things secret.

Yeah.

From other coaches first, starting with just X's and O's, everybody's film.

30 Years ago when people were trading VHS tapes.

Yeah.

Maybe you could be like, no, I'm not sharing my, we're not giving it to rival school X because they might give it to rival school Y.

And I'm hoarding that.

Nobody's going to see our film.

And I got these six secret out of bounds plays that Nobody's.

All that stuff is gone now, right?

Everybody can see everybody's film.

So I think you see a lot more coaches willing to talk and share X's and O's.

And yet I still think that there are things that.

One of what's been really super, I guess, interesting, exciting for me about the podcast, and I'm sure you feel this on yours as well, is that the number of coaches who love and care about the game of basketball and therefore, as a result, are willing to share the things that have worked for them, that have made them successful.

To me, I always come away from those conversations just feeling great about the state of the game and knowing that it's in the hands of people who are caretakers, who, yeah, they want to win and they're competitive and all those things, but superseding all of that, somewhere in their mind is the fact that they just love basketball and want the game of basketball to be better.

And so I do think that the sharing, podcast wise, the just video stuff that's out there, the book, there's just so many ways to be able to learn and benefit from the coaches that are out there that are willing to share that.

I think if you, if you do kind of get on that island, you're probably not going through and getting best practice.

Right?

Because there's so many different ways that you can, that you can learn out there.

And I just, again, the basketball community, to me, and again, I'm obviously much more enmeshed in that than any other sport, but I just feel like basketball coaches in general are just super willing to share because, again, they just, they just have a love for the game that I'm not sure that every sport has the same way.

And again, I know I'm biased, but, man, I just feel like basketball coaches just, they just love hoops.

They do.

I mean, look at who are.

Who our national champions have been just the last five years and just the, the craziness of the different styles.

You look at Virginia and the pack and we're going to, you know, make eight passes and we're going to just, we're going to screen you to death and we're going to wait till we get a great shot.

And then you got Danny Hurley and the craziness of their motion and the movement and the, you know, Danny Hurley can give 99% of the coaches in the country his playbook and say, here, here's our playbook.

Good luck.

Yeah, exactly.

Are you going to.

Are your defense going to work as hard as our offense is Going to work.

Right.

You know, because we're, we're, we're reading screens and we're doing that.

So, you know, I just love it too.

And I love talking to coaches.

I love talking to coaches like you and spending time talking hoops and it reinvigorates me.

It's, it's, you know, it's like a shot of adrenaline every time I get to talk to a coach.

And I just get so excited.

I go, oh, maybe I need to get back on that court.

I need to, you know, I need to get a team again, you know, because it's just, it's, it's so much fun.

It's so much stress and, you know, it's, but it's, it's addictive.

It's a drug when you get to coach because you're, you're changing lives.

You're, it's so creative and.

Yeah, I can't get enough of it.

All right, here's my final two part question that I love to ask everybody.

So I'm gonna throw it at you.

Your biggest challenge over the next year or two.

And then the second part of the question.

When you think about what you get to do every single day, what brings you the most joy?

So your biggest challenge and then your biggest joy.

My biggest challenge is figuring out my last chapter and what it's going to look like.

I have a really good idea of what I want to do, but figuring out how I'm going to get there.

And, you know, I'm sure you feel this too.

It's, you know, I don't have that teacher pension.

I've done really well with my retirement, but I got about seven, eight more years.

I got to work.

It's.

How do I, how do I do what I love and make a living out of it?

That's my biggest challenge.

And what was the second part biggest joy?

My biggest joy is my two kids and seeing them grow and seeing them change and trying to figure out how they went from right here in my palm of my hand to you, you know this so well to driving a car and going off to college and doing all those things that I don't know what happened in a blink of an eye where those 17, 18 years went.

But I feel the same way about the athletes and the kids I to work with and just the, you know, I've got, I've got former players that are in their mid-50s now or mid-40s now, and just, just seeing all the great things they're doing in this world.

And it just still getting a Christmas card or a Facebook message and those things.

I don't know how, how or why it happens, but it's just like it takes years off my life every time I get to see one of my, one of my former players do something good and, or they reach back out and share what's going on in life.

It's just so it goes back to what we talked about before.

You know, what kind of relationship do you want with your coach and find that coach that wants to have that relationship with you and because it's not going to end in four years because if you find the right coach, that coach is going to be with you until they're in the ground.

There is nothing better than that phone call, that text, that letter, whatever that says, hey.

That starts with hey, Coach.

Right.

There's nothing, there's nothing better.

And I'm sure you're the same way as I am.

When I see people who coached me.

Yeah.

Back in the day.

Yeah.

And I run into them today and even though I'm a 56 year old man, I still am not calling them by their first name.

I still am not calling them.

I'm still, they are still coach and maybe they're just coach.

Maybe they're, maybe they're Coach Smith or their coach, whoever.

But, but they're but their coach and because again, that's who they were in the formative years of my life.

And to hear you talk about again, the impact that you have right as a parent on your own kids and seeing them grow, but on your players and the impact that you have and seeing them grow, I mean, again, that's what's life is.

That's what life is ultimately all about.

And when I think about what you do right as a consultant, you're helping people to make decisions that are going to impact the rest of their lives.

Not just that decision in the moment, but where you decide to go to school and what coach you decide to play for and what program you decide to be a part of that's going to be with you for the rest of your life.

And when you can have that kind of impact and help people make good decisions, man, you're doing something.

And so kudos to you for, for doing that, Matt.

And again, it's, it's something that, it's a, it's a decision that is a difficult one and it's not easy and to help somebody kind of go through the process and figure it out and then ultimately end up in the right place and have a good outcome.

And again, I can see why that's your biggest joy without, without question.

There's no doubt about that.

I'm not always great about it, but I try and make sure my heart is always in the right place.

You know, that I want to help, help somebody be better and get better and be healthier and happier and.

But yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a lot of fun.

I want to do more of it.

If you go into it with the idea that you're in there doing your best for, again, if I think of a kid right, if you're doing the best for the kid, if you have the kid's best interest at heart, then you're doing something right.

And I think a lot of decisions that we make in life as coaches can be framed through that lens of, hey, is what I'm doing, is this decision a good one for the kid?

Then that's, I think, a lens that we should probably look through more often than what we do.

Before we wrap up, I want to give you a chance to share.

How can people connect with you?

How can people find out about your books, the services that you offer?

Give us your website, your social media, your email, whatever it is that is going to allow people to connect with you and find out what you're doing.

Yeah, my wife just drives her crazy.

But I always give my cell phone number when I'm on these because I don't want anybody to feel like they can't just call me because I love that too.

I love having a conversation.

And so my website is coachmatrogers.com no D in Rogers.

That guy and that guy that plays for the Steelers spells it wrong.

So it's coach Matt R o g e R s dot com.

You can find everything there about me.

And if you want to schedule just a check in or discovery session and want to learn more, you can go to my contact page and just schedule a zoom with me.

And I'm happy to do that.

My email is Coach [email protected].

Significance is my big word.

You know, we, we try and replace sex success with significance and learning how to do it right.

I want to pick your brain or hey, you know, I think I got something I can help you with and make me better.

Love it.

Perfect.

Matt cannot thank you enough for taking the time out of your schedule tonight to join us.

Really appreciate it and to everyone out there, thanks for listening and we will catch you on our next episode.

Thanks.

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