Socrates, Plato, and the Legacy of Greek Philosophy

In this episode, the Daniel and Nathan return after a brief hiatus to explore the life and philosophy of Socrates and his profound impact on his pupil Plato. They discuss the Socratic method of questioning, its influence on Western thought, and how it shaped Plato's works and ideas, particularly in his early dialogues. The dialogue also delves into the historical context of Socrates' life, his opposition to the Sophists, concepts like absolute truth, justice, and the philosopher king. Additionally, the episode examines Socrates' influence on early Christian theology through Plato and Aristotle, the spread of Hellenistic culture, and its enduring impact on contemporary interpretations of the Bible.

00:00 Introduction and Catching Up

01:43 Transition to Socrates Discussion

02:36 Socrates: Historical and Literary Figure

05:16 Socrates' Influence on Plato

07:48 Socratic Method and Dialogues

12:43 Socrates' Life and Death

16:11 Exploring Plato's Socratic Method

16:21 The Immortality and Transmigration of the Soul

16:56 Socrates' Dialogue on Justice

21:13 Socrates' Intellectual Humility

22:15 Plato's Philosophical Contributions

25:05 Upcoming Discussions on Plato and Aristotle

26:05 The Influence of Greek Thought on Christian Theology

Microphone (ZOOM P4 Audio):

And we are back.

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Sweet.

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Yeah, It's been a while I've

had a trip and then I had COVID.

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So we've had a little gap there

in our recording schedule.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Yeah.

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How are you doing?

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How were, how was the trip?

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It was wonderful.

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Went out to Tahoe.

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Visit with my sister and

did some incredible hiking.

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They had the best hiking.

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That really the best.

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The best I've been to.

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So for those of you who don't know,

Daniel is an avid outdoors man.

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Uh, that's probably overselling

that, but I do like the hot and.

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And then we're also going to have

to work on Our production schedule.

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When you go on maternity leave soon.

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Yeah.

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Paternity leave maternity leave.

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I'm not having the baby, my wife

is, but I get the benefits of having

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the baby without the delivery.

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So.

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So you'll be off like a month.

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Yeah.

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So we were just talking in.

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Uh, no updates on what

that's gonna look like yet.

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Still planning to record, but

may have some other cohost.

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I had a substitute substitute.

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I like it.

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Yeah.

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So we'll start working on that.

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Yeah.

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So, uh, were the, were the

trees changing colors yet?

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Tahoe.

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So the thing is out there, they

have evergreen of different kinds.

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And then they have, um,

Aspen, which turned yellow.

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So there were some places where they were

turning yellow and it was very beautiful.

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So you've got this.

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Not like it's Midwest or new England

where you've got this rainbow.

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And treats green and yellow.

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Uh, but essentially very

beautiful in this, in.

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It's own way.

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Nice.

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Yeah.

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in.

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You sent some pictures and

there was, there was red.

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And there was blue, but

just not in a tree so much.

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Yeah.

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There was this grass or shrub

that turn this bright red.

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I read up in the high mountains.

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Got some good pictures of that.

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Yeah.

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Cool.

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But we're not here to talk

about that, I suppose.

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No, but it is fun.

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It is.

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I love that changing

colors and everything.

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So I do two.

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We're here to talk about Socrates, who.

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Socrates.

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Okay.

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You heard of him.

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I, I believe I have heard of him.

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You were just talking about a movie

bill and Ted's excellent adventure.

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Yeah, I think he's, he's one of

the main characters, you know,

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next to bill and Ted, but he's

part of the excellent adventure.

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So crates as they call

him, they call him soakers.

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I have not seen that particular treasure.

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Treasure is absolutely

the correct word for that.

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Okay.

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I'll have to check it out sometime.

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That should've been your homework.

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The episode is I should

have I missed that.

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Seeing how the pop culture

reference actually matches the.

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historical, evidence.

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Okay.

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So again, I haven't seen the movie, but

it sounds like it's kind of analogist

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what actually happened in Greece.

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Because Socrates became more of a

literary figure than a historical figure.

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At least that's what's most important

or what we remember him for.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I mean, he was a, he was a real guy.

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He wasn't a made up dude, but.

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We primarily remember him for the

way that Plato is going to use him as

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a literary figure in his dialogues.

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Gotcha.

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Gotcha.

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So why don't you frame

this for us a little bit.

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You mentioned Plato.

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So what's the relationship.

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between them.

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And what time and context are

we kind of thinking about here?

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All right.

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All this is now going to be an Athens.

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Okay.

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So all the other flossers we've

talked about have been in Greece or

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Greek areas, Greek controlled areas.

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But now it's going to be more

centered for awhile on Athens.

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And we're not talking about

Athens, Georgia ladies, and,

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you know, no, I agree sexually.

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So all the philosophers we

have talked about before are

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often labeled in the history of

philosophy as the pre Socratics.

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So that tells you right off the bat that.

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Hey, someone's here.

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That's making a difference.

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There are actually three philosophers

that are tied very closely together.

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Historically as well as dramatically.

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And that is a Socrates

Plato and Aristotle.

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Now of those three.

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Socrates did not write one line, at

least not that we have any record of.

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But he was the tutor

or the mentor to Plato.

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And then Plato is the mentor

or the tutor to Aristotle.

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So they've got a line age of three.

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Incredibly important names.

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Gotcha.

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Gotcha.

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And what timeframe.

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I was just hoping you

knew to ask that actually.

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So Socrates 4 69 to 3 99.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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Plato 4 27 To 3 47.

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And then Aristotle 3 84 to 3 22 BC.

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And then Aristotle supposed statements.

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People.

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Do you know who that was?

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Aristotle's what most famous people.

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It wasn't a philosopher.

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Um, Aristotle's most famous pupil.

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It would have been St.

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Thomas Aquinas.

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I know you're off a few centuries there.

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Um, Alexander the great.

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Really?

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Yeah.

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Wow.

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Yeah, so.

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Not a philosopher, but I'm sure he

picked up some philosophy there.

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But you like my answer though?

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Uh, those.

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It's pretty, it's pretty clever.

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That was.

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Um, anyway.

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So there's again, about 40

years separating each one.

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Okay.

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give or take.

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And Socrates did not start a school.

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Play-Doh started a school.

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Aristotle started his own.

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Socrates did not write anything.

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But he had a profound effect on Plato and

Plato and Aristotle are the two biggest.

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Influencers in Western thought

or at least Western philosophy.

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And arguably Western thought

as a whole, I would think.

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So the reason we want

to talk about Socrates.

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Is because.

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Of that line, age he becomes a very

important figure in Western thought.

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Yeah, for sure.

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Wow.

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Cool.

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So let's get into a

little bit of his thought.

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All right, let's do it.

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So last episode, we talked about

this office and we mentioned that.

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Socrates was there.

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Uh, antagonists, he was opposed to them.

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And so for those who haven't caught that

yet, Give us a little definition of it.

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They gotta go back.

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Let's do the whole thing.

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Make them do their homework.

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Yeah, that's right.

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No, um, The Sophos were traveling.

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Advisors to especially young

men who are trying to advance.

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So they had a philosophy, but it was

basically one of self-improvement.

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It was focused on.

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well you should do, how

you should advance in life.

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So there were philosophical

principles that they taught.

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But for the most part.

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They also practiced and sometimes

taught the idea that there was.

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It's not an absolute truth that

you would attach yourself to,

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or that you could even discover.

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So the goal of life is to get ahead

to understand what you should do.

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And Socrates was.

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Diametrically opposed to the idea

that you can't know absolute truth.

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He says it is unacceptable

to hold that position.

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Both pragmatically because of the way it

turns you into someone who's just out.

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For the next buck or personal advancement.

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That's one dot philosophy is about.

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But also because to say there is no

absolute truth is to commit a very

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fundamental self-defeating argument.

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Because you're making a true statement.

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And at the same time, that

true statements undermines the

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ability to make true statements.

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And we talked about that last episode.

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Gotcha.

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Gotcha.

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So he is going to hold to the fact.

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that there is absolute truth.

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Yes.

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And that that shapes.

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What people do in their life.

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He is, but paradoxically,

he's also going to say.

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I don't really know anything.

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I don't know the truth about these things.

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So he's also going to adopt.

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Uh, studied stance of ignorance.

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Now what I mean by that is.

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His whole shtick as a word.

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Is too.

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Say, Hey, I don't know what,

what justice is, right?

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I don't know what beauty is.

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Right.

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I don't know what goodness is.

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Would you teach me?

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And so he'll talk to somebody else again,

this is at least as Plato describes him.

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And then as they try to

describe those things, he shows.

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That they don't know either, even though

they're using the terms all the time.

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How does he child that they don't know.

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by the method of dialogue.

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So we would call a Socratic

dialogue today in his honor.

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Gotcha.

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So he's just, he's just asking

questions for the most part.

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And to dig down deeper.

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Yes.

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Until there's some sort of

contradiction or something.

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In which case he slaps in the face

and says, hi soccer and walks away.

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That's exactly what happens more or less.

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Uh, yeah, so.

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What he's known for.

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It's not in his specific

doctrine that he taught.

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Although he did believe in

absolute truth and goodness.

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He was not known for any

doctrines he taught, but rather.

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His influence on Play-Doh.

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His life and how he

lived it and how he died.

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And the thirdly, his method,

the Socratic dialogue.

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So we talked a little bit about his

influence on play to look, maybe

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let's just explore that for a second.

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Sure.

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Socrates is going to be the key

figure in most of Plato's dialogues.

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It's not the case.

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However, that Plato is describing.

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In actual conversation

Plato is using him.

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As a literary figure for his own purposes.

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Most philosophers or historians.

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Feel however.

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That at least in the

earlier dialogues of Plato.

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that he is.

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More or less describing what,

what Socrates actually was

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doing and how he thought.

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So they would view him as at

least in the early dialogues.

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Yes.

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There.

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They're worse at fiction

in the sense that.

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This conversation was not

probably, probably it's demography.

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You've recorded that way.

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Um, but they, more or less

capture what Socrates was doing.

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And the later dialogues, most historians

feel Plato's doing his own thing.

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But he's still using Socrates

as a mouthpiece as it were.

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I see.

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So He becomes more of a legendary

character kind of, I guess.

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In one sense without all

the miracles and all that.

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Usually go with legends.

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so he's got this method, Plato records.

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It he's an actual guy.

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Early on those.

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dialogues.

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Probably pretty closely emulate what.

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Socrates is doing later on.

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Probably mostly just.

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Aristotle taking the, taking the

reins and run it with Play-Doh.

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Plato.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yes.

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Yes.

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Now.

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I think also because of that.

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That dynamic.

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That whole way that Socrates, when a bow.

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That is my questioning.

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And then questioning the question or

the answers, you know, ad infinitum.

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That kind of set Plato up or the way

that he would write his philosophy.

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Because his writing.

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It's all going to be in

this dialogical form.

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Or dialectical for more technically.

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And Plato has incredible influence

for many reasons, but one of them

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is the style that he's going to use.

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It's going to be these

dialogues and they're brilliant.

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They are so much easier to read.

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They're incredibly more engaging.

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Than almost any philosopher

who's ever written.

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Yeah, I'm kind of

surprised that there isn't.

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More of that style of writing more.

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I have to, I mean, you, you see.

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You can just see the, the

natural rhythm of a conversation

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happening, natural counterpoints

happening and that kind of a thing.

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Yeah.

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I think the only.

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The big name philosopher who does this

consistently and well would be David Hume.

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In English men.

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And that was almost

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Yeah.

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Have you had Peter crafts work or.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, he does.

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He does it brilliantly.

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Yeah.

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Uh, he's, pretty good.

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Yeah, he, he gets the memo there.

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Yeah, and I I've read some of

his work and Like you said, it's,

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easy to read and understand.

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And almost a good like reference buck for.

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I mean, you can, you can see the arguments

and you can see them unfold just in a

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very natural kind of conversational way.

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Right?

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Yeah.

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Yep.

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I lost my train of thought

there for a second.

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So most philosophers.

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Are very difficult to read.

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And the secondary sources that

people writing about them.

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Are easier because they

kind of summarizing explain.

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With Play-Doh.

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It's the opposite.

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If you want to understand,

play to just read Plato.

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You know, don't read so much about

what people are saying about him.

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Because.

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None of them are going to be as

consistent and engaging as Plato himself.

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Hmm.

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So anyway, so there's that

influence on Play-Doh.

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In theme, but also in style and form.

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And you still see that just in

the way that conversations happen

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or dialogue happens nowadays.

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I mean, that's part of the

influence you feel like of Socrates.

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Um, maybe, I mean, Um, obviously there.

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Pretty far removed.

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I suppose you could trace that

thread if you really wanted to.

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So, okay.

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So.

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I want to talk about his life.

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Let's talk about his life.

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All right.

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We don't know much about it.

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Okay.

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All right.

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Next.

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We know more about his death.

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So, what we do know of his life is that

he apparently went around Athens, just

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pastoring people with these questions.

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Uh, showing them that they really didn't

know what they were talking about.

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Sounds like a good job.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So it was a bit of a gadfly.

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Um, He's described by.

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Uh, another writer.

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Not Play-Doh as, as being a

gadfly, but also being kind

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of, Ugly and, uh, obtrusive.

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and.

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Lacking in social graces.

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Don't know if that's really true or that.

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Um, but we do have a pretty

good understanding of how.

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We met his death.

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Because of some of the

things, the way he did things.

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He stirred up a lot of annoyance

and even anger at people.

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And people in Athens,

especially the powerful.

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Because he often show that they had

no idea what they were talking about.

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So he was condemned to death.

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And the charges were basically corrupting

youth by not honoring the Greek gods.

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Now when that happened.

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And again, this is going to

be an influence on Play-Doh

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because he was there.

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This occurs in a.

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Society.

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That's a democracy.

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Okay.

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Athens is a democracy by this point.

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Probably you could argue

the first real democracy.

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on a lease to the city,

a large city wide scale.

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And they condemn him to death.

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His hero.

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The one person that he

looks up to as being.

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someone who is actually seeking truth.

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No.

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This is a condemnation.

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of death, but it was also kind

of understood that he could.

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He could get away.

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But just.

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You know, taking them out of, out of bath,

it's taken himself out of, out of Greece.

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It would not have been difficult to do.

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He had that offer.

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But he chose to stay that

tins and to drink the hemlock.

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Because he wanted to show.

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That the chargers were false, that

he was actually obedient to the city

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government, that he would follow the laws.

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He was not disrupting public order

or the stability of the city.

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And also to show that he

wasn't, afraid of death.

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Hm.

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So there is this very moving scene.

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Plato describes.

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About the trial.

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And the death of Socrates.

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And his younger students

are gathered round weeping.

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And he gently rebukes them saying.

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Look at it.

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You don't get it.

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This is a good thing for me.

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My soul was like imprisoned in this

body and now it will soon be free.

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I don't have to fear this death and

I don't want you to fear it either.

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And then he drinks that and walk, it dies.

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So he becomes the first martyr.

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For philosophy.

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Um, again, it's a very moving scene.

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It has profound effect on Plato.

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In particular, he, uh, he

really distrusted maybe even

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hated that might be too strong.

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A word.

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Uh, democracies from that point on.

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And so he's going to build

his own political theory in

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the book called the Republic.

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And it will not be a democracy.

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Hmm.

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It will be the rule of people

who know what they're doing.

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A philosopher Kings, not this.

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Crowd that gives way to

ignorance and mob mentality.

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Hmm.

427

So that's also part of

Socrates's influences the way.

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That he saw the truth

and he died for truth.

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Wow.

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Yeah.

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So that's pretty intense.

432

Yeah, that is, that is, And

then what's the other thing I

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said we were talking about here.

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Plato.

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The Socratic method.

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one theme you can already see

that he did seem to uphold.

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At least Plato understood him this way.

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Is the.

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Immortality of the soul or even

the trans migration of the soul.

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And mortality just means

solo die, trans migration.

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Would be like reincarnation that

it migrates to a different form.

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A different physical form.

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And that's going to come

into play Plato's philosophy.

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Big time.

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And then.

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I was going to read some,

uh, one of the dialogues.

447

to illustrate.

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The way.

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He utilized the Socratic method.

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So I'll do that.

451

It'll probably take five or seven

minutes, but do you have any questions?

452

No.

453

Yeah, I think it's good.

454

Okay.

455

So this is in the Republic.

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And.

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Just give a little background.

458

Plato's writing this again.

459

This probably did not happen.

460

At least not quite this way.

461

But in this dialogue, Socrates is meeting

these other people and they're talking.

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And he begins to question

them in this way.

463

And this goes on for a long time and I

have to read the whole thing, obviously.

464

But there's a wealthy man.

465

He began to ask him about him and about.

466

The blessing to his wealth,

you know, what does it mean

467

to, to be blessed in this way?

468

And he gives an answer this wealthy man.

469

about hope.

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Hope he says cherishes the soul of

him who lives in justice and holiness.

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And as the nurse of his age and

the companion of his journey.

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And.

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Socrates says how admirable are his words?

474

But he says Because Ceridian justice.

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Okay.

476

So in other words, So you

brought this word justice, right?

477

So this is Socrates.

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Okay.

479

Yeah.

480

Uh, what is it?

481

to speak the truth and pay your debts.

482

That's what he applied in.

483

Previous paragraph.

484

No.

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No more than this.

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And even when there are not exceptions.

487

I suppose that our friend, when in his

right mind has deposited weapons with me.

488

And then he asked them for them.

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When he is not in his right mind.

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should I give the bat to him?

491

No one would say that the art or

the should be right in doing so

492

any more that then they would say

that I always speak the truth.

493

To one who is in his condition.

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you're quite right.

495

He replied.

496

But then I said, speaking

the truth and pain.

497

Your debts is not the correct

definition of justice.

498

Quite correct, Socrates.

499

And then one of the character files out, I

fear said suffer less that I must go now.

500

I have to look after the sacrifices.

501

And I hand a word, the argument

to Paula Marcus, and the company.

502

It's got Paula Marcus, your air.

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I said to be sure he answered.

504

And then he went away

laughing to the sacrifice.

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So this guy's like, yeah,

I know where this is going.

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I don't want any part of this.

507

You know, I've seen this.

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This worked out.

509

So he looks to Polacco.

510

tell me then that air of the argument.

511

What did they mean?

512

About justice.

513

He said that the repayment

of a debt is just.

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And insane.

515

So he appears to me to be right.

516

So that's his definition of justice.

517

You give to people what's due

to them, or you pay them back.

518

And Socrates says, well, I should

be sorry to doubt the word it's

519

such a wise and inspired man.

520

I think his tongue is in this cheek

here, but his meaning though, probably

521

clear to you is not very clear to me.

522

Per, certainly he does not mean as

we were just now saying that I are to

523

return a deposit of weapons or have

anything else to one who asks a bit

524

when he's not in his right census.

525

And yet.

526

Uh, deposit light that cannot

be denied to be a debt.

527

True.

528

So here you begin the site credit

dire while the other person says true.

529

Then when a person who asked

me is not in the right mind.

530

I am by no means to make the return.

531

Certainly not.

532

So when somebody has said that the

repayment of a debt was justice.

533

He did not mean to include that case.

534

Certainly not pre, he thinks

that a friend not always to do

535

good to a friend and never evil.

536

You mean then that the return

of a deposit of gold, which is

537

to the injury of the receiver.

538

If the two parties are friends,

Is not the repayment of the debt.

539

Is that what you would imagine him to say?

540

Yes.

541

And our enemies also to

receive what we owe them.

542

To be sure.

543

There to receive.

544

Uh, we owe them That is to say evil.

545

So I'm just giving an example.

546

Green, cut it off here.

547

It goes on a long ways.

548

His point is again, going back

to this definition of justice.

549

Okay.

550

This is what you say it is, but

let's explore this a little bit.

551

Certainly you don't mean

this or this or this or this.

552

And by the end of this, you realize.

553

That the person who's using these terms.

554

So freely has no idea what they mean.

555

And Socrates says, I don't know either,

but at least I know that I don't know.

556

Hmm.

557

So, and he just does that by just trying

to make a mock of the conversation and.

558

What's he what's he like.

559

What's this point.

560

That's what they wanted to know.

561

And that's why they got

really annoyed with him.

562

But I think his point

is basically twofold.

563

Number one.

564

Is to get some intellectual

humility going on here.

565

So that we understand that we're using

terms without thinking of them very well.

566

And really we should be much more

cautious in how we're using terms.

567

And I think the second point.

568

Is that is by thinking through and

examining things like this in this way.

569

They really going to make any progress,

actually knowing what justice might be.

570

So at the end of the conversation,

did they get to an idea or

571

concept of what justice is?

572

No.

573

And that's usually the case with his

dialogues is that they are inconclusive.

574

But at least they've shed off some of the.

575

Some of what it doesn't mean, I guess.

576

Yes.

577

Huh.

578

They've cleared the woods so

that they can begin building.

579

Yeah.

580

And in this case, Plato is

going to be the builder.

581

So Plato's going to,

Plato's gonna pick up on it.

582

After having.

583

paved the way a little bit with right.

584

Clearing the woods.

585

Yeah.

586

So in some of the dialogues, then

again, the later ones, and they're

587

not quite all this back and forth.

588

But you do get a more positive sense in,

and of course, Plato is going to develop.

589

Not just this negative style.

590

But he is going to develop

a very broad, expansive.

591

Imaginative of metaphysic as well

as the theory of knowledge, as

592

well as the theory of ethics.

593

So.

594

Socrates in that way as a

transitional figure towards him.

595

But also.

596

Teaches him.

597

the way forward is by examining and

thinking through things as it were.

598

Hmm.

599

So Socrates.

600

Does believe.

601

In.

602

what, what was the

language we used earlier?

603

Some sort of absolute truth.

604

Yes.

605

But he also doesn't believe that he

or anybody else can really know it.

606

Well, I think that might be too strong.

607

he would say.

608

I don't know.

609

What things are like, I don't know

what justice is, so I want to learn.

610

I don't know what it is, but

you certainly don't either.

611

So.

612

But I don't think he'd say

it's impossible to know it.

613

He would just say our stance

should be that we should.

614

Not use it so flippantly and

shallowly, we should seek to

615

think through and understand it.

616

I got you.

617

I got you.

618

But he doesn't get there, which is

interesting, at least in Play-Doh.

619

Well, again, not all of them, but

again, Plato is going to give.

620

A very descriptive.

621

And positive affirmation of what justice

is, what good is, what beauty is.

622

So the earlier dialogues are much more

like this and some of the later ones are.

623

I can see.

624

Yeah, I can see a little bit differently.

625

I can see why people would think that

the earlier ones were more likely

626

authentic if they shift in that

sort of direction of becoming more

627

positive, especially if we know that.

628

He got killed for this kind

of stuff by the public.

629

I mean, even in that scene,

you see that the one guy.

630

Kind of piece out and like, yeah, no.

631

Yeah.

632

So.

633

That is his life.

634

And that's his influence.

635

Again, he did not write anything.

636

So it's not like who

can analyze his writing.

637

We only see him through

the eyes of Play-Doh.

638

And a couple other writers of that time.

639

Oh, who wrote where it plays?

640

He was a figure and some of those.

641

But.

642

He was able to.

643

Really pave the way.

644

In many ways.

645

Not just in his form, but many of

his ideas or Plato and Aristotle.

646

Hm.

647

But that's gotta be hard to see

that distinction of where it.

648

Socrates and, and where Play-Doh starts.

649

Yeah.

650

It is.

651

Yeah.

652

It's one of those areas where.

653

Historians who specialize in

the field, argue about it.

654

Yeah.

655

So that tells you that.

656

It's not a clear cut answer.

657

Hmm.

658

But either way, it's still formative for.

659

For us now and kind of be.

660

And downstream of it.

661

Right.

662

So.

663

Yep.

664

And now next time.

665

We're going to begin talking about Plato.

666

We may have a few.

667

Episodes that aren't on topic

of the history of philosophy.

668

I'm going to work that out

a little bit this week.

669

But Plato is going to be.

670

arguably.

671

The most influential.

672

Philosopher, possibly thinker.

673

in the Western world.

674

At least in there.

675

Greek and the European and

therefore the American mindset.

676

Aristotle.

677

coming right after him.

678

I mean, you could argue about which

one is more able to essential.

679

Aristotle was much broader.

680

But Plato is the one who.

681

Synthesized all the issues of the

previous, the pre-Socratic philosophers.

682

Gave his own original synthesis and

interpretation and advancement upon that.

683

And then Aristotle corrected and built

upon that, but it was Plato who was

684

really the original, great loss over.

685

Wow.

686

Yeah.

687

That's a lot and that's, that's exciting

to piece out over a number of episodes.

688

So yeah, that'd be good.

689

Yeah.

690

And especially because

Plato had incredible.

691

Profound influence on Christian theology.

692

Christian theology is

primarily going to be formed.

693

In his essentials.

694

In the second through fourth centuries.

695

And during that time period.

696

Aristotle's not really on the scene.

697

Because his writings.

698

Uh, our not extent.

699

That means that the people

who are doing the Christian.

700

Philosophy don't have access to them.

701

They're not going to be

rediscovered until centuries later.

702

And the Thomas Aquinas is going

to be the one who synthesize.

703

Sizes.

704

Christianity.

705

With Aristotle.

706

But that's a Christianity that's

already been synthesized to

707

profoundly influenced by Play-Doh.

708

So Thomas is Aristotle's.

709

Yeah, he is in the line.

710

Joke now make sense for everybody.

711

It didn't make sense earlier.

712

Yes exactly.

713

So early Christian theology

was a combination primarily of.

714

Biblical revelation and Plato.

715

Especially as Plato is going to

be modified by the Neoplatonist.

716

We'll get to that.

717

And that includes most of the early

Christian theologians, including,

718

and especially you guys do.

719

And then.

720

Aquinas is going to.

721

You know, he's going to come along

almost a thousand years after Christ.

722

Yeah.

723

And also then begins to sizing it

with Aristotle, but that's again,

724

a theology that's already formed.

725

Bias at this is with Play-Doh.

726

And so you really can't

understand Christian theology

727

without understanding Plato.

728

And that's part of the

whole point of this.

729

Yes.

730

This podcast.

731

And I think that that's

an, a really important.

732

Thing for everybody to understand

is the way that, um, You know,

733

you mentioned Alexander, the great

being one of the apprentices or

734

disciples or mentees of Aristotle.

735

And when the Greek empire expands.

736

Exactly.

737

You know, then.

738

Then Greek influence and then Roman

influence is all over the place.

739

But as the gospel spreads

out of Israel into.

740

Rome and Corinth and Desola Nika.

741

Uh, nice places.

742

There's there's prevalent Greek thought.

743

And so that's the,

Hellenistic influence, right?

744

Exactly.

745

Hellenistic for those who aren't

familiar is just another term

746

for Greek culture and language.

747

And again, you're exactly

what I'm glad you brought.

748

Got that out.

749

Through Alexander the great,

and those who came after him.

750

Greek.

751

Influence thought categories and language.

752

Spread throughout the entire middle

Eastern and Mediterranean basin.

753

So it's not an intentional move to

fuse Greek thought with Hebrew thought.

754

It's the natural theology that's

happening out of these contexts

755

that are Greek and Jewish.

756

Yes.

757

Now, some of them were more specific and

intentional the way that some thinkers

758

were doing that more intentionally,

but you couldn't get away from it.

759

So you've got, I mean, while

Paul is that in essence?

760

I mean, trained as a, you're trained as a.

761

Pharisee, right.

762

And then going and trying to do the work

of theology in these contexts that are

763

super heavily influenced by Greek thought.

764

Yes.

765

Yeah.

766

And he, was born.

767

not in Judea, but in a.

768

place that would be.

769

Greek Roman influenced.

770

So again, even when the Romans

come along, They don't really

771

change the categories of thought.

772

Or even that much from Greek philosophy.

773

They're basically Latinized everything.

774

They even take the Greek gods, even the

Latin names, they do the same thing.

775

With most of the.

776

Philosophical and religious categories

of thought that the Greeks had.

777

Yeah.

778

And so then, I mean, when you've got.

779

Guys who come later down the road, like

you're talking about with a Gustin.

780

So He's Greek right now.

781

He's Roman.

782

He's wrong.

783

he grew up in the Roman empire.

784

Right.

785

Yeah.

786

But where did, where was he?

787

He's in, uh, he's in Africa, right?

788

Well, He settled In HIPAA,

which was in north Africa.

789

Yeah.

790

But he's got influences

from other places as well.

791

But then he becomes.

792

Christian and he reads.

793

That.

794

Hebrew scripture and even the

new Testament and everything.

795

And then he's.

796

He's doing theology from his.

797

You know, from the way

he's been trained with it.

798

Roman and Greek influence and

then the Christian influence.

799

So right.

800

And he was a Roman and Greek

philosopher or thinker.

801

Before he was a Christian.

802

So he's going to.

803

Think in those terms by default.

804

Yeah.

805

So, I mean, just piecing out

the location of this and.

806

it's clear to see the way that,

Christianity has been influenced by this.

807

And a lot of the, a lot of the

Western world that has been shaped

808

by Christian thought and, you know,

Christians going and trying to

809

evangelize in that kind of thing.

810

So, yeah.

811

So it's, it's feeling very weighty.

812

Now getting into Plato.

813

And Aristotle seeing, okay, this is,

this is really helpful to understand

814

Christian thought, especially

in, you know, new Testament.

815

Yeah.

816

So.

817

And that's kind of the burden

that gave birth to this podcast.

818

Yeah, it's this, isn't

just an academic exercise.

819

I feel in many people, I think.

820

it's not my own viewpoint, but.

821

The church has been profoundly

influenced by Greek thought.

822

Which influences the very way that we.

823

Americans.

824

Interpret the Bible.

825

We think we're coming at it

from a blank slate or we're not.

826

We're coming through it from a cultural

viewpoint that has been profoundly

827

shaped by the people we're talking about.

828

And unless we see that we're

not going to be able to discern

829

what's good and bad in that.

830

Yeah.

831

That's.

832

That's what's bugging me.

833

So you're want to, examine the lens?

834

Through which we understand Christianity.

835

Put that.

836

Yeah.

837

Yeah.

838

And that's a tough, thing to do,

but I think that this is helping,

839

I mean, just, seeing, okay.

840

Some.

841

This is, this is the groundwork

that's being laid here.

842

And you talk about the way Christianity

is affected Western society.

843

And then.

844

I mean, I think with political

theory, NCN how Plato's.

845

Going to affect it.

846

Like that's going to be huge.

847

Yeah.

848

You're welcome.

849

So that's the next, how many?

850

Four or five?

851

Three to five seven.

852

I haven't, quite mapped it

out yet, but it's going to

853

be a number of episodes here.

854

Yeah.

855

I mean, you could do an unlimited

about almost, but we'll try

856

to keep it to three to five.

857

I think I'm Plato.

858

And then.

859

Several on Aristotle.

860

And then we'll come back to

Plato in a sense, cause what to

861

talk about Neoplatonism . Yeah.

862

Well, cool.

863

All right.

864

Well, until then, Thanks for helping out.

865

Thanks Daniel.

866

See.