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Breaking Boundaries: A Conversation on Organizational Change, Inclusion, and Creating Cultures of Dissent with Dr. Sana Shaikh
Episode 9 • 14th December 2023 • Trailblazing In Color • Sarah Bacerra
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In this episode, we have the privilege of hosting Dr. Sana Shaikh, an expert in organizational change management, culturally responsive organizational practices, and diversity, equity, and inclusion programmatic initiatives. With over 14 years of experience in operations and policy research, Sana is the founder of TimeED, a company that focuses on developing anti-racism and anti-bias learning solutions for national non-profits, parent-teacher organizations, and school districts.

Sana's research has centered on the intersection of racial identity and relational coordination in cultivating culturally responsive classrooms. She has had the privilege of presenting her research both domestically and globally, participating in relational coordination roundtables from Portland, Oregon, to Copenhagen, Denmark.

Our conversation delves into the significance of relational coordination in creating inclusive environments. Sana emphasizes the importance of slowing down to clarify the "why" behind change initiatives, the roles and responsibilities of each stakeholder, and the incorporation of identity and experience into the equation.

We also explore the common pitfalls of DEIB initiatives, and the need to shift away from the mindset of external saviors. Sana emphasizes the importance of creating a partnership approach that integrates external consultants as team members.

Sana shares insights into making data-driven decisions that promote equity and inclusivity. She highlights the importance of humility, courage, and an organizational culture that embraces dissent, as organizations navigate the complexities of transformation in pursuit of more equitable and inclusive practices.

Thank you for joining us on this episode of Trailblazing in Color!

Finally, we’d love to hear from you: What are you celebrating? What support do you need? Reach out at sarah@trailblazingincolor.com to share with me and let’s stay connected.


As always, thank you for your ongoing support and commitment to knowing better and doing better. (Thank you, Maya Angelou, for this endlessly useful sentiment.)


Carry on, trailblazers and equity warriors. 

If you want to tune into the conversation, be sure to hit Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can also subscribe to our newsletter to make sure you don’t miss an episode. Thanks, Trailblazer!

www.trailblazingincolor.com

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Transcripts

Speaker:

sarah_chapman_bacerra-oal8ixhq4__raw-audio_sarah-chapman-bacerra-sana-shaikh_2023-oct-20-0621pm_trailblazing_in col:

I want to leave space for really

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people sharing what's really going

on and creating that safe space for

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vulnerability about the actual things

versus wanting to put a shiny bow on.

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And how we think this should look.

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Welcome to the trailblazing and

color podcast, where we talk to

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change makers and innovators focused

on upending systems, not designed

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by or for them to create a more

inclusive and equitable world.

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I'm your host, Sarah Chapman Becerra.

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Welcome to the show.

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sarah_chapman_bacerra-oal8ixhq4__raw-audio_sarah-chapman-bacerra-sana-shaikh_2023-oct-20-0621pm_trailblazing_in col:

welcome, welcome everyone the

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Trailblazing in Color podcast.

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Our guest today is an expert in

organizational change management,

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culturally responsive organizational

practices, and diversity, equity, and

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inclusion programmatic initiatives.

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With over 14 years of experience in

operations, policy research, and Sena

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Shaikh is the founder of Timeud, which

focuses on developing anti racism,

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anti biased learning solutions.

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For national non profits, parent teacher

organizations, and school districts.

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A 2011 Teach for America Corps member,

Sena spent two years teaching 11th

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grade English in Baltimore City.

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She later joined Teach for

America's staff, serving in

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various capacities on the National

Operations and Admissions team.

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Her experience has ranged from

policy to non profit, and has

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taken her from Denver, Colorado,

working with Senator Mike Johnson.

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The New Orleans, Louisiana for AmeriCorps

partnerships to Ghana to help steward

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positive social change with a Ph.

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D.

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in social policy and management

and assets and inequalities.

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Sunna's research has focused on analyzing

the intersection of racial identity and

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relational coordination in cultivating

culturally responsive classrooms.

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She has had the privilege of

presenting her research both

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domestically and globally.

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and relational coordination roundtables

that have taken her from Portland,

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Oregon to Copenhagen, Denmark.

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Svena has obtained numerous

fellowships throughout her career.

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She was the recipient of the Harvard

Kennedy School Rappaport Fellowship,

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a Leadership for Educational Equity

Fellowship, the Inspired Fellowship

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through the Department of Elementary and

Secondary Education, and more recently

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serves as a 50Can National Voices Fellow.

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In all of these spaces, Sunna is

committed to using data to create

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meaningful programmatic initiatives and

quantifiable and equitable policy change.

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In 2022, Sunna presented at TEDxNewHaven

with her talk, Building Bridges,

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Not Bias, Navigating Relationships

in Uncertainty, unveiling the

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extraordinary power of relationships.

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In dismantling biases, stereotypes,

and misconceived first impressions.

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Sana has been a thought partner

and facilitator for Achievement

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First, Civitas, Immersion, the

Ghana Health Education Initiative,

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and The Collective, among others.

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Sana lives in Connecticut

with her husband, Dr.

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Rehan Shaikh, five year old twins Amal

and Amin from five month old Azan.

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Welcome Sana.

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I'm so happy to have you on the show.

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I mean, listen to that bio.

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There's so much to unpack.

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I'm so happy you're here.

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Me too.

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Well, let's start with a little

bit more about you and your origin

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story and how you came to this work.

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Tell us a little bit

about Sana as a person.

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It's so wonderful to hear that part

because then you, you reflect on your bio

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and your story and your career journey.

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And it just makes so much sense that

education has been the anchor and equity

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in education has been, has been the

focus of your efforts in so many ways.

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So maybe we could start by going back

to your time as a Teach for America core

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member and working for the organization.

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Thinking about your experiences there.

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What were some of the things that

inspired your work and your focus now?

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Yeah, we look at, I think your, your

perspective and you said, even back

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then, I had to really think through

that, the answer to their question

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around, can this ever really be solved?

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And I remember in our, in

our previous conversation.

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You were talking about how systems

are fundamentally imperfect.

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And so there's always going to be

imperfections in our systems based

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on who's in charge, who's got power.

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Policy is really what makes that

change and creates that sustainability.

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And we're always reevaluating, but

maybe you could talk a little bit more

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about the research you've done and the

policy work you've done around this.

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So you've worked in various

capacities, policy to nonprofit.

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Talk a little bit more about

systems change and policy as it

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relates to, meeting those core

needs of inequitable practices.

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Yeah, because it is, it is the thing

and what I appreciate about your

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work and the intersectionality of

how you I mean, to me, this concept

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of relational coordination was new.

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So I want to hear a little more

about what that looks like.

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And also this idea at trailblazing

and color, we work a lot with clients

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around following a more human centered

design process around creating systems

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change when it really is about having

those who were serving at the center

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and not just assuming what their

needs are, but going out and asking

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and thinking critically around.

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How do we source this information?

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So we have a really clear picture on

what being seen, heard, and valued

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looks like for each individual,

because it looks differently.

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So I wanted to hear maybe a little more

around how does this look in practice?

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What strategies do you, do you engage

to bring this concept of relational

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coordination into organizations, or

even just talking a little bit more

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about that concept and what that means?

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Yeah.

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So what I'm hearing is.

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That opportunity to really slow down,

especially in the beginning to get super

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clear on the why, because we so want to

jump into the how we want, , we're, we're

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fast moving our society like technology

has made things happen so rapidly

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that it feels like everything should

be able to be accomplished right now.

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And I think that that's a lot

of the, the work we're all up

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against in the D and I space.

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The EIB belonging space is this work

takes time because transformation takes

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time because systems change takes time

and often what we're doing when we're

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rushing is we're solving the wrong problem

or yeah we're solving the thing that we

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think is going to fix it but we haven't

asked the people who we're trying to solve

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for what's really getting in the way.

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So if we're not taking the time to really

understand that and that's why I really

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like how you talk about Relationships

being at the center of these conversations

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with the learning and the listening

because we don't know what we're missing.

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And so we have , these conversations.

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And so before diving into anything,

really getting clear on the why, getting

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clear on the roles and responsibilities

of each stakeholder and what are

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we bringing and what are we doing.

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And layering in identity and

experience in over all of it.

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I took my girls to a museum in San Diego

last night called the Wonder Museum.

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And there, it's, there was

all kinds of fun stuff.

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But on one of , the exhibits,

there was a quote that said, how

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we see shows us what we've seen.

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I think that it's just, it's really

sat with me since yesterday is

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because we're not all coming neutral.

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Like you said, we're not coming

to the table, neutrally open

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to whatever's being suggested.

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We're coming with what we've

seen and there's richness there.

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There's.

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I think it's learning is there

we can all tap into and leverage,

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but only if we're having these

conversations only if we're building

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these relationships intentionally.

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Gosh, you you articulated that so

well around why these efforts fail or

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the mindset coming in can fail either

from the side of the practitioner

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coming in as an external consultant.

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Or from the expectations of the internal

team that this person who we've hired

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is going to solve every problem that

we have just because they're there.

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Well, it's about interweaving them into

the community, into the fabric of the

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organization and, and taking that hat off

of I'm, As a practitioner, like I know the

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answers, I, I come into every conversation

like, I don't know what's going to

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happen here, where we're going to go.

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I've got some outcomes that we're driving

towards, but I want to leave space for

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really people sharing what's really

going on and creating that safe space

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for vulnerability about the actual things

versus wanting to put a shiny bow on.

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And how we think this should look.

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And so that idea of the, the savior piece

on both sides, like one person can't

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come and save your entire organization.

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And me as the practitioner shouldn't

assume that either, but really being

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intentional with, the ecosystem

around the creation of the solution

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or the engagement, like, what does it

look like to be an ongoing partner?

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That's, that's more over how I think.

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We think about it , is partnership

like we're really, we're coming in

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and we're a part of your organization.

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We're a team member and we're

brought in for a specific purpose.

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I think that is , the risk and , you

named it so well of bringing someone in

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and hoping that everything's going to

be fixed just because we had one session

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or we did a couple of, of workshops.

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Well, I want to dig into that a little

bit more because your expertise is

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so much steeped in data and people

analytics and strategy behind that

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centered around around outcomes.

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And what are we driving towards?

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Let's really get clear.

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And I think that is something that

still is really difficult in this field.

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To get people on board.

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So how, how do you work with organizations

or how can organizations ensure that

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they're making data driven decisions

that promote equity inclusivity,

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rather than perpetuating system

biases, system, systemic disparities,

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and just continue the cycle.

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How do we leverage data

and analytics in this work?

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We wish that there was, you know, the

handbook to organizational transformation.

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Here's exactly how you do it, but really

the skills of this work fundamentally

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are humility and courage and letting go

of ego and letting go of this idea that

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we know anything for certain at all.

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Maybe we do for a time, but it's

going to change and I love how you

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name it as a culture of dissent.

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I've heard that before.

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It kills.

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I love it being able to have the

safety because you use safety and

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we're thinking about psychological

safety to say this isn't working and

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the courage to push back from that's

a practice and it has to be modeled

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at every level of the organization.

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So maybe we could talk a little bit about,

you know, where have you seen wins in

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this work because there's so much to do.

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What have you seen in your work that

has been a positive example of, of this

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culture of and creating that safety?

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That's huge to have had that

influence modeled for you.

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I think of the old adage, or

maybe it's not that old, but

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we can't be what we can't see.

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So if we don't see that modeled, it's

way scarier or even impossible to

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figure out what it might look like in

practice around dissenting to people

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who don't look like you have have.

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a lot more perceived power than

you and show up and take up space

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so much more easily than you do.

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So it's one thing to be vocal in a

meeting, looking one way, having one

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lived experience, and it's entirely

different to ask someone to be vocal when

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that hasn't been their lived experience.

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So just getting that advice,

advocate for yourself, be more vocal.

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it only works when we're able to

see it modeled for us and I'm so

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glad that you had that experience

because now we have the privilege of

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getting your voice added to the table.

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So, I wanted to talk a little bit

about your personal brand and on

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time ed too around where you're,

you're headed with this work.

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So, where you sit right now.

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One, how have you.

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built and effectively

maintained your personal brand.

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You did a TED talk last year.

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That's huge.

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Um, so, so what does that process

look like for finding your voice

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and putting yourself out there

in more bold, courageous ways?

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And then what's next for

where you go from here?

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So beautiful.

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And I think I know that's what's going

to keep you relevant and, and rising

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to the top in this work is because you

are so comfortable with uncertainty

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with change because you're so grounded

in these foundational practices.

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And you apply to whatever the situation,

whatever the challenge, we are anchored

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in these behaviors, these human centered

behaviors around people and understanding

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unique lived experiences, and how do we

relate to each other to get things done.

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In a way that meets the needs

of, of the people that we serve.

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So I remember in our, in our previous

conversation too, you had said something

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about responding to the moment in time.

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And I think the only thing with all

of this that's constant is change.

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It's always going to change.

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And so knowing that what worked

five months ago was not going

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to work exactly the same now.

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It's not going to work a year from now.

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So being able to pivot and use.

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our understanding of human behavior

to know what's going to make

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those pivots most successful.

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It's listening, it's empathizing, it's

being able to hear their stories and

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really ground into what their experience

is and then leveraging that information

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to connect everyone and move forward

together to co create something that

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really is measurable and impact driven.

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I am so grateful that you are in

this space and that the work you do

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really is pushing the limits and the

boundaries of how we've historically

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thought about diversity, equity

and inclusion as this boss center

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as this nice feelings based work.

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No, it's really about the outcomes

and the measurement and the long

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term goals of the business and how

this absolutely intersects with it.

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Beyond.

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Thank you, Sana, for being such a

model trailblazer, modeling in terms

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of those vulnerabilities, those

courageous behaviors of saying, hey,

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I don't know all the answers, but I

sure am going to work towards getting

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us where we need to go, and in a way

that's, that's collectivist and not

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just focused on our individual selves.

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So, as a trailblazer, I know

that there are people who

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have paved the path for you.

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I want to.

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Close out by asking, you know, who

have been some of the trailblazers

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in your life that have helped

save where you are headed?

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And what is your mother's name?

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Sana Usla.

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We honor all of the, the hardships and

the things that she had to navigate

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to get you all here, to get you to

where you are now and doing the work

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that you love and are so dang good at.

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Where can people follow you and stay

in touch with all that you're doing.

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That's the best way.

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Thank you for being here.

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Thank you for coming on the show.

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This has been fantastic.

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I'm so appreciative of you.

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Thanks everyone.

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Thank you for tuning in to this episode

of the Trailblazing in Color podcast.

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If you enjoyed this episode, please

rate and review the podcast on Spotify,

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Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen.

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Don't forget to hit subscribe

for future episodes.

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You can also follow us on Instagram

at at trailblazingincolor.

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and@trailblazingandcolor.com

slash podcast.

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The Trailblazing and Color Podcast

is created and executive produced

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by me, Sarah Chapman Becerra.

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The trailblazing and color podcast,

season one production team includes

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Alicia Archer and the podcast Bestie

Team, led by Angie m Jordan, and

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supported by Jean Credit and Sarah Decker.

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Our theme song was

composed by Troy Chapman.

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Thanks dad.

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Welcome to the trailblazing and

color podcast, where we talk to

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change makers and innovators focused

on upending systems, not designed

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by or for them to create a more

inclusive and equitable world.

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I'm your host, Sarah Chapman Becerra.

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:

Welcome to the show.

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